The Future of AI and Startups

Hello and welcome to The Times Tech podcast where we unpack how technology is reshaping business culture everyday life. I am Danny Fortsen out here in Silicon Valley. And I'm Katie Prescott here in the city of London. And this week it's the big one.llow Foing one of Silicon Valley's most infamous trials, we're going to be taking a deeper look into the world's richest man and most infamous tech billionaire Elon Musk, the man who wants to conquer Earth and space everything in between. I think Indeed. Indeed . So a couple things have happened that put the spotlight on them. In case you've been, you know, living under a rocky that don't know , after three weeks in court, a jury dismissed Musk's case against Sam Altman and OpenAI . And it was during this blockbuster trial that Musk was also in the background making plans to get SpaceX onto the public markets. Usually when executives have a company that is about to go public, they enter what is known as a quiet period , but Musk doesn't do anything that's quite, you know, so conventional. Does he? Yeah, no, I don't know no. There wasn't hasn't been much quiet about Musk in the last few weeks. The Space Explode is going to be the largest in history and will make Musk the first trillionaire. I was just one absolutely trillions and trillions . How many zeros is that? Yeah, so later we are going to be joined by Dan Ives who is the managing director and senior tech analyst at investment company Wed Bush Securities to talk about what all this means, what the vibes are on Wall Street, how Muscott here and why this massive valuation you know is raising eyebrows among st some people and not among others. And Dan , of course, has been one of the most vocal commentators on Musk and a big supporter for a number of years now. I would say Dan's eyebrows are definitely not being raised on this. No. Like he is not, he's not surprised about the valuation. He is a big cheerleader, cheerleader for the valuation. First of all, though, please can we talk about one of my favorite stories of the year, which you know really, really carefully, which of course is that court case that Elon Musk and Sam Altman have been involved in . Last time we left this cliffhanger with you previously on the Times Tech podcast somewhat blah blah. You were waiting for the phone call from the court to say get here now. The verdict is coming , like bring us up to speed . Yes. Spoiler alert, Musk lost, but like, what happened? Yeah, so as we mentioned, it was three weeks of court proceedings , lots of drama, stories of betrayal and accusations of ly ing, all that kind of stuff . They were all on the stand, Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, Satchy Nedella. Every billionaire floating around every billionaire around was had their day on the stand. But it had a very anticlimactic end with the jury dismissed his, you know, he was looking for at least one hundred thirty four billion dollars . It was dismissed in less than two hours, unanimous a verdict and really on a technicality, which is like basically Musk, you waited too long You know statute of limitations all of this was around kind of a conflict that broke out in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen . And they're like, look, you can't just like sue , you know, at infinitime whenever you feel like it, when you ever feel like you've been wronged. They said he just waited too long. Interesting. So they didn't go into the details of the argument and it was like a case No. And did you get there in time? Like I wanted a danny part in this? Like what happens? So the end of last week, they're like, look, the last day of evidence, I believe, was on Thursday. Anyway, they're're like, We going to start deliberations on Monday . And the way this usually works is that once we hear your verdict, we'll send you an all an email blast you all being the journalists . And then usually within a half an hour, you have basically a half an hour to get to the courthouse. Which is why we said you do not leave your phone like a phone. And so what did I do? I left my phone. No I didn't leave my phone, but I was on Monday there was a big tech conference down in San Jose, which is about an hour from where I live. And so I'm getting in my car to go back up to Berkeley and like as I get in the car, it's like verdict is in and I was like and nobody expected it to happen on Monday less than two weeks. Mind you of your wife's giving birth? Yeah, I was gonna go now I have one of those like magnet police sirens I put on the roof of my car in an eighties skipping through . Anyway, so I was like, oh man , but I knew that they, you know, they've been streaming this trial, which has been an interesting thing. So I just like set it up in my car. So I was like, let me just at least get on the live stream so I don't miss a verdict because I'd seen the message like eight minutes or twelve minutes after it was sent . I get on there and they're already dismissing the jury . Oh wow. I was like, this has all happened just so so fast . And then I heard them asking, you know, Mr. Musk's lawyer, you know, I presume you want to appeal. And he's like, yes, I want to appeal. I was like, oh, this dude lost and lost quickly. So it all happened very, very fast. And again, the jury, like they didn't even get into the merits of the case at all . Which is really interesting because this is three weeks of dirty laundry being aired . Everybody came out kind of looking worse. Yeah. You had all these embarrassing emails, diary entries, et cetera. And then, you know, the at the end of this, this nine person jury is like, you know, you waited too long. And the judge agreed . And that was it. And you're kind of like, oh, and his lawyer outside the court's house, he's like, I've got one word appeal . But I do think this is kind of taken the air out of that balloon because you know, we're talking on this today's pod about big megatrillion dollar floats. Open AI could go as soon as this year and this like lawsuit whose goal was to destroy the company . Yeah . You know, get one hundred and thirty four billion dollars from it, remove the executives, and return it to a nonprofit. The fact that that has been thrown out of court, you know, that just removes this one big uncertainty question mark that was hanging over the company. So it has big implications as far as that. I can see that, but I wonder if the damage from some of , you know, the reputational mud slinging that's been going on will stick . What 's the vibe in Silicon Valley of people? I mean, because it's, you know, the gossip around this has been extraordin . I mean, honestly, I know Sam Altman won , but I think between there's this big New Yorker piece about him and his allegedly kind of duplicitous manner . And then you have this lawsuit where he's on the stand and like , you know, as I think I mentioned before, Elon Musk's lawyer is like basically are you a liar ? So it was a little bit of a not a little bit. It was a character assassination by Sam Altman . And when you step back and you think about, okay, well, he's going to be one of the people who are leading the development of this very influent ial technology. I think for people who are paying attention, and I don't know how many people are paying attention outside of, you know, tech land , I think it has left people with a certain kind of like you know, feeling less great about the people who are leading this charge because of course the other person, one of the other people is Elon Musk. And we all know that he is he has very strong and controversial views . He's very erratic and he seems to be getting more so the richer and more powerful he gets. A very good friend of mine texted me this week and said that open AI and anthrop ic reminded her of Oasis and Blur in the nineteen . Do you feel like that like this the world is dividing into two camps ? Or like take that and se he'sventeen . You probably didn't go through that as a teenage girl. No, I was not a teenage girl, but I do remember take that. But the other thing that reminded that has emerged from all this whole kind of drama partially through the court proceedings and also other stuff that's come out since it's just like how insular group of men is that are like leading the charge on this because you have Elon Musk and Sam Altman and Greg Brockman and Eliz kov, they kind of founded this thing . Dario Amade comes in not long after and then leaves because he doesn't like how Sam Altman runs his ship . He starts anthropic , who's an early investor, according to new reporting, Sir Demis Hassabas , who runs Google Deepmind, who they're both competing against . And you know, so you're kind of like it's all quite incestuous and it's way more incestuous than oasis and blur . Exactly. And the other thing that that came out in the trial, which was quite extraordinary was, you know , when Sam Altman famously got fired and rehired in those chaotic five days. In the midst of all of that, the board of open AI had a meeting with Dario Amade being like, Hey, what do you think about anthropic merging with OpenAI and you leading the new organization . And you're kind of like, whoa , it's like ten dudes that are doing this all of it. It's just quite extraordinary. And are you picking up anything from, you know, what happened in court and how the evidence landed with the jury and you know, the lawyers and people listening . No , no, for my take , like having sat through a lot of it, I didn't find Musk's case that convincing because at the end of the day, he discussed in great detail the very thing that he then got angry about, which is starting up a for profit arm of this nonprofit to raise the vast amounts of money that were going to be required . He wanted to do that . He wanted to be the CEO of that . And when he didn't get his way, he left . So then for him to be like, years later be like, hey , I funded a non profit. Man, that's not cool. You're like, well , you were going to fund a for profit. They just didn't agree to your terms effectively . And then of course after that he launched a direct competitor. Then you launched a competitor that is not doing nearly as well as so you sued to destroy that competitor. It's kind of that in that sense it's a fairly straightforward business dispute. Well, speaking of Elon Musk and vast sums of money, he's not a man to rest on his laurels and we've got the SpaceX IPO. I think you used the word launch just there. This is absolutely out of this world. Oh my gosh. The puns, the puns are just flowing this morning. It's evening here actually Whatever, whatever, you know. We're transitler podcasts. We mean what a moment this is so the float's happen going on to the twelfth of june , very very soon. Roadshow is getting underway imminently where you know, they go and sort of sell their shares, sell their wares around the banks . And I will say regardless of what you think of Elon Musk , the fact that space exists is an incredible story , like incredible. So I think it's just worth doing a just remind remind me. Yeah. Yeah. So going back to two thousand two, Elon Musk and the PayPal what came to be known as the PayPal mafia they sold to eBay. And that included Peter Thiel, right? Reed Hoffman, David Sachs, now the AI's are in the White House. So all big, big cheeses still. Yeah, they're all billionaires now, basically. And Elon Musk made, you know, I think he made like one hundred eighty million dollars personally from that deal And he was like, he was obsessed colonizing Mars as kind of creating like an intergalactic backup plan for Earth if it all goes terribly wrong here on Earth. And so he's like, you know, I want to start a rocket company. I want to make reusable rockets, which would be like a huge step forward because basically every time you make a rocket, previously, just governments , effectively were the only ones making rockets, there would be one time use. And so everything's like this like artistic just so type of thing, wildly expensive. But if you make a reusable rocket, you bring down cost dramatically. You can start to kind of launch lots of stuff into space. So he launches he goes up with this idea and he's like, I was just an internet guy. Nobody would work for me because he was just a dude who had just sold PayPal, which is a payments company. It was like, what? You're gonna start a rang Yeah, exactly. You gotta start a rocket company that no one and do it in a way that no one's ever done it before. Like what are you talking about? So he becomes chief engineer and they start building rockets. The first one blows up, second one blows up, third one blows up . And so by the time the fourth launch comes around in two thousand eight, they're basically have no money. He's like, if that launch failed , SpaceX dies . I'm sorry to interrupt but Tesla is going at the same time. Correct. And Tesla is also struggling and also on the brink of bankruptcy. He is on the brink of bankruptcy every year for the first like fifteen years of its life. So he's like running these two kind of like companies that are on the precipice of financial ruin . And then he has this launch that actually works finally, the fourth launch he'd run out of money and then not long after NASA gives him like a billion and a half dollar contract to start sending stuff up to the International Space Station and that was the thing that kind of like gave it its lifeline and then it was off and today it launches like a rocket into space every two days . It's incredible . And it's like brought down launch costs by orders of magnitude. It own contsrols it eight percent of the launch market into space . And so what it is now is you have this launch business where you basically pay for space on a rocket. You have Starlink, which is this internet based high speed internet, which is growing super fast in. So if you live in parts of the world where you find it hard to get internet, you can plug into one of Musk's satellites, essentially. Yeah. So they're used in Ukraine and parts of Royal Wales. England, and exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then you have and then weirdly in February, he merged in X and XAI, you know, the whole kind of like, oh let's let's append a social media business as well as my startup AI company that's losing tons of money and we're going to mash all of this together and then you know bring it to market. It is the strangest kind of agglomeration of ass maybe ever that has been kind of offered to the public of like we got rockets, we got internet service, we got AI, we got data centers, we've got a social media site. Twitch and it's all. Yeah, exactly. And so and it's really just like you are buying Elon Musk Inc. A lot of people, I suspect want to do . And it's always very, very different in the US to here in the UK where companies don't file regular accounts with companies house. What do we know about the finances of this weird mashup? They're terrible , which is the chomos . Right. Okay . Yeah, yeah. So like go to spade a spade. Well, so Starlink is a really good business because it's growing like from zero a few years ago for like four years ago to like now has over ten million paying subscribers . We pay a monthly internet service fee. And that's just growing and growing and growing. And like , it's the largest constellation of satellites ever . So he has ringed the earth with all these internet beam ing satellites and putting it more every week. So that's that business is just booming. And then there's a launch business which is good and then everything else is bad . Like Twitter loses a ton of money. XAI loses a ton of money. And so when you mash it all together last year, it lost five billion dollars on something like eighteen billion dollars in revenue . And then you zoom back out. You're like, okay, so they're going to value this company at maybe a trillion and a half, pick your gigantic number for a company that is losing five billion dollars It's quite extraordinary. We'll be back in just a minute when we're hear from Dan Ives, who is a Wall Street analyst who's covered the tech industry and Musk in particular for many years. Joining us now to help wrap our heads around all this is Dan Ives who is calling in from scenic Newark Airport. So if you hear anything in the background, that is why . But Dan is a managing director and tech analyst at Webbush securities, and he's been following what he calls the Musk ecosystem from Wall Street for years . Welcome to the show Dan. It's a big week for tech and we wanted to ask you or kind of have you weigh in on SpaceX because you know people are talking about one point seven five trillion , but that would seem to bear no resemblance to the actual financials. Like it seems like you're being asked to buy a story in a way to a degree that maybe no one ever has before. And I'm wondering if you agree with that or what your view is ? I think the reality is if you looked at it just on financials, you would never a valuation near this . The reality is I think investors and it speaks to a lot of the early investors too that I know it's really the start of the category. No different than the tech in late nineties or early two thousand . This is a start, whether it's a data centers in space , almost business operations that now from energy to storage to AI revolution and space space could be in the foundation of that. I think that's more the way it's viewed combined with is the Musk ecosystem. And that's our view a year from now, eighteen months from now, Cast merges with SpaceX . I love that you brought up the late nineties though, early two thousands, because we all know what happened shortly after that. I mean, is that the sort of space for want of a better word? Is that the sort of era that you compare this two and in terms of the bubble bursting very soon after . See, I don't I compare more to a ninety six ninety seven moment than the ninety nine two thousand bubble moment. And no , I'm not like we've talked about, this AI revolution party started at nine PM. Goes to four AM, it's about eleven, eleven thirty PM . But look , if you go back, tech companies are traded at thirty times revenue. Now it's twenty seven times earnings. Big tech trillion dollars in the balance sheet generating another three to four hundred billion a year. And this is a true AI revolution. It's a true fourth industrial revolution. So I view it differently. Look, I get the comparis ons, but kind of at a Danny's point, it does come down to like execution, monetization , go from the CapEx phase to now seeing the monetization. I think that that's's the mood that we're in the scene NASA thirty thousand . And you know, when we're talking about the AI revolution, I mean, one I was talking to a venture capitalist out here the other day and he was saying, look , the way I think about this is like this isn't like we're replacing software or we're replacing this or replacing that. It's kind of it's kind of a new layer of capability . And when you put it through that lens, it's kind of like human labor. And that goes from like several hundred billion dollars market to many trillions . And I'm just wondering how you think about that. Again, when we're talking about , you know, we have SpaceX coming . Probably soon after that we have anthropic and or open AI . We're talking about multiple trillion dollar IPOs, which is not a thing that's ever been obviously never happened or even been contemplated . Look, I mean, Bill, I mean, Dan, you Katie, I mean, for decades, I mean, you guys have cursedly followed like every part attacked and we've gone through ups and downs and we've talked about a lot together . I think it's a new error, right? And I think when you think about SpaceX and open AI and anthropic , it's there's four trillion that's going to be spent the next three to four years . So it's about like who are the winners, the arms race, speaks to the Musk almost so bought for trial. Like it will be losers and we see like the Sas apocalypse in terms of the nervousness that's gone on there Adobe into it. I mean, you know, the whisk goes on , but I view it as a multiplier effect because in my when you take a step back like first time in thirty years , US is ahead of China when it comes to tech . And I think now it's like an important dynamic where we are when it comes to AI. What I want to know sitting here in London where we barely have any IPOs, let alone trillion dollar IPOs , what is the vibe like on Wall Street? How excited are people about this? What are they saying? I think the road show hasn't started yet, right? But presumably everybody is getting, you know, everybody's thinking about it I mean this is exciting in a time as I've seen because of the investment, because of the entrepreneurship, because of this cheery fourth Industrial Revolution that starts off at SpaceX . And look, and I think investors they view it that this is really the start of the next leg of AI revolution. I think I was in Europe last week in London. I was in Poland for a long time. And I got the big conversation there. It was like, who's the count ry that leads in Europe? How do you get out of regulatory? There's entrepreneurship and innovation. So I think there's a lot going on that's going to happen around the globe. But in terms of the sort of the finance world in the US, how are they viewing this as a sort of split between cynics and those who are big believers? I mean how would you how would you kind of describe it ? Maybe Cynics eight months ago or twelve months or six months? No cynics now. I mean, because now it's like that's why you're seeing the insatiable appetite because of the validation , not just the valuation from the archetype, but in terms of the fundamentals . And when anyone looks at what anthropics already done, it's like, okay, what does that mean when we look at six, twelve, eighteen months ? I think the big focus is just like especially like in like who's the country that's going to break out and where entrepreneurship is going to be? Cause of the regulatory, because of the data of privacy , there's so many companies in Europe that I've talked, they want to create and like so many entrepreneurs now have to leave to go to Asia, Middle East, US, Israel, whatever it may be. But so on Wall Street , SpaceX is coming in, I think it's june twelfth . Like, do you think like people are going to be biting his arm off to get a piece of this? I believe not just retail but institutional. Like I think when you think about the valuation where this could go , I think that that's all fair game relative but then it's like you said like you have to believe the story . You have to be able to look around the corner to where this could go. I think one of the interesting things about an Elon Musk company as well is that clearly he is so well known by the general public that that there must be an impetus from retail investors here too, right? And around the world ? Well, of course. And think about the ones that bet against Hassel and everything else and now with what's happened next. But at that point, like when they go public , there's a six months, nine months, twelve months where they need to group it. Is there enough dry powder to kind of take all of this new capacity? When again, when we talk about First Basics, open AI , anthropic. We're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars that are going to have to flow into just a handful of companies . Do you think that's going to happen or are we going to quickly reach a saturation point? I just have to go because otherwise I'm going to have to take a SpaceX rocket to get to where I'm going to . With that , I don't believe it's just going to be a few players. I think it's going to be a ripple effect. The second third, fourth derivative. And look, the big players are obviously in the IPO and everything else, but that's going to lead. Like I've said, we're near three of an eight to ten year buildout of the AI revolution. All right, safe travels, Dan. Thank you. Bye, Dan. Thanks for coming on. Well, it was great to hear from Dan Island. I think it's fair to say, isn't it that he has a reputation both on Wall Street and amongst tech journalists for being a drum banger for the technology. A cheerleader. Cheerleader that's the better word. Yeah. He's absolutely very bullish. Yes, and he produces lots of notes on tech companies every week, which are very breathless , very supportive, and always see the upside. And what I think is interesting is like, you know, he is not a minority of one, you know, like there is obviously if you just look at what's happening with the valuations, especially of the private big AI labs and various things like this , there's a lot of people who are like, yeah , this is the beginning of a revolution . Get on board , you know, like don't don't worry so much about like the big losses and the uncertainty and lack of clarity or all the just like you better, you know, grab your ticket or you're going to , you know, miss this train to the Promised Land . I did a really interesting interview with a Cambridge professor the other day who was talking about this in light of ineffable, which is a British AI company that's raised a billion dollars seed round. And I kind of find the word seed a bit difficult given the billion dollar prices. It's a very big seed. I mean, it's a very big seed for a company that was only registered company's house in November . But he was he was making exactly that point that investors are looking for stories now. There's so much FOMO that you're looking for a very credible individual. So in Effable's case David Silver's come from Google's Deep Mind , but also a brilliant story . And that's what you're trading on. And so and one of my colleagues jokingly said, Well, you know, has revenue become old fashioned these days because it just seems like people aren't looking at the numbers. Well, and that's what's really interesting is that like, you know, I'm out here in Silicon Valley and this place is built on fairy tales . And like Bill Girlie, famous benchmark investor has famously said like, you know, if you look at like the financial sophistication of your typical venture capitalist versus your typical Wall Street or analyst whatever, like a VC is like a two out of ten and an analyst is a ten out of ten . And what's really interesting is the IPO moment is when the fairy tale meets reality and it's like it either works or it doesn't. And most famously that was like , you know, we work when it was like, oh, this is just a fairy tale . And it was completely rejected and the whole thing fell apart. I'm not suggesting that's happening at all with SpaceX because there's much there's much more there. But it does like the kind of the meaning of that kind of like, we're going to sell you this fantastical vision . Now look at the numbers and buy our stock. It's a really interesting kind of proof point that happens over and over again . And as you say , with Elon Musk, he's got this he's got a cult following. He is like this mythical figure and people are going to people are buying it probably going to buy into that in droves. But when you go in front of the investment banks and you're trying to sell that story, they do also want to see the numbers. I mean, SpaceX , as we mentioned earlier, founded twenty four years ago , accumulated deficit, which is all of its losses plus all of its like shares that are handed out to it, employees, et cetera , thirty seven billion dollars, okay? That is more than any company buy it like a country mile , you know? But again , and you know, last year they lost it might be worth like some countries . Exactly. Last year they lost five billion dollars . Like so these the numbers are kind of eye watering, but again , you have to look forward, not back. You know, nobody wants to miss out Exactly, exactly. Do you remember when I think When I think it was Apple became the first trillion dollar company, everybody was like, whoa . Yeah That's crazy. That's a Rubicon past. And now you have like anthropic, which didn't exist six years ago was worth is raising money at nine hundred billion . And it's extraordinary. I remember last year actually when Nvidia went to three trillion, four trillion, five trillion. It was like, my God what's going on? Interesting times, interesting times. So anyway, it was good. It's always good to hear from Dan get the kind of the rose colored view from Wall Street and it'll be interesting to watch that those world s collide as, you know, the kind of the bean counters finally get to look at the books and see what they think of SpaceX and us. We die we digress actually to a list ener email from Philip Long and he asks lovable friend of the pod has recently been valued at six point six billion dollars and as far as I understand is one, of Europe's biggest AI hopes. Do you think I will go to you, Katie, because you're out there , do you think there is room for tech companies like that in the future with Ch PT Claude, etc . Given that AGI can't be far away . This is an amazing question, but I don't think it's a European question. I think it's a broader business question, isn't it? It's like will we need any of these so lovable for people who don't know is a vibe coding business? The idea being that you tell its program about the app or website or whatever it is you want to develop and it will spin it up for you. So you don't need to know how to program. It'll just create an app or a website however you want it . And this sort of plays into these fears that there are at the moment about the Sapocalypse and business strateg y, what companies will we need, as he makes the point , when you've got AGI, which is artificial and general intelligence, essentially intelligence that is as good as humans . I think this all depends really how you bottle and create that AGI. I still think there will be room for different companies because I think those companies will be able to do things that we individually still can't do even in an age of AGI . I don't know what your view is on that. Yeah, I agree because I think, you know, this makes this it's a good question because it makes me think of like, you know, both anthropic opening I have recently launched effective like AI deployment companies, like separate companies that are heavily funded with partners to go out into the world and like send out forward deployed engineers as they call them to actually help companies just implement this stuff and that gets to this basic idea, which is, you know, inertia is a very powerful thing . Like even if we had AGI tomorrow, it's not like the world would like suddenly be revolutionized , you know , it takes a long time for this stuff to kind of get used to kind of start to change industries, change processes. And like, we feel it because we're like right on this cold face and we're interviewing tech companies all the time and it feels so inevitable and it feels so urgent . But if you go out there in the world like things are happening much, much slower. And that's not to say that it's not happening still incredibly fast, but I just think there's still lots and lots of room for companies to find a niche . And if they , as to your point , if they have a really good product , they're going to win because like cool, you have AGI, but like how does that how do I interface with it? Like exactly right a good way of like packaging your certain type of capability into a product like if you iPhone it , then people will buy it. Yeah. Individuals if it's honest. Yeah . Individuals aren't necessarily going to know how to deploy AGI for specific uses like creating apps or creating webs ites. Exactly. And like what my wife and I were just talking about this the other day. Her mom's eighty four and she's caretaking her husband who's kind of not doing well. And so she's doing a lot more kind of admin. And my wife was like, let me get you a cloud subscription . So you can just help it can help you like write emails. It can help you manage things. It can kind of help you do with it your calendar, like all of this like stuff , but even she's like skittish . She doesn't really know how to what to do. And like, all you have to do is talk to it and it'll start to do stuff for you. But even like it's just one small example of like, you know , AGI is coming sure , but it's not coming nearly as fast as it sometimes feels. I don't think so. And so I do think and the world's a very big place. There's going to be lots of room for lots of companies to do interest ing things. Well that's it, Philip . Yeah. That's the answer. Thank you for the question. Bring it. Thank you. It's also, I think it's a really, really thoughtful question. And you know , who knows if we're right. This is all evolving so so quickly. We're right, Katie. We're definitely right. Okay, definitely right . But well, that is it for this week's episode of The Times Tech podcast. If you're enjoying the show, drop us a line to let us know at tech pod at the times.co. UK that is techpod at the times dot co dot UK And we'd love to know your thoughts on today's discussion and whether you're planning to buy into SpaceX when the IPO happens, what do you make of all of that? Anyway, so we will see you next week. Thanks as always for listening. See you next week. Goodbye