Community reaction and future outlook

What is the best press trip you've ever been invited on? Oh I went to the rugby world cup in Paris . That was pretty amazing. Well, I bring this up because I maybe should have said what is the best trip you've ever been invited on I got an email this week from a company inviting me to Costa Rica. Oh, and then I read through the email and it I mean, I don't know if we can say there's a family show Katie It's a family show. And they basically invited me for breast enhancements in Costa Rica. What? I know . It is apparently a technology story because it's FEMTEC Sure Shall we move from Yes We just get back to like more No offense more consequential matters Hello and welcome to the Tim es Tech podcast where every week we unpack how technology is reshaping business, culture and everyday life. I'm Katie Prescott covering all things tech here in the city of London. And I am Danny Fortson out here in Silicon Valley. Welcome back Danny. It's good to be back . This week, we're going to be talking about the huge backlash which has been sparked against the people who are building AI. Yeah, and it's a buildup of a lot of different things. Starting with an investigation in the New Yorker . Went on for about a year by Ronan Farrow whose strikes fear into the hearts of anybody who's being investigated by him . But this one was about the CEO of OpenAI Sam Altman. None of what was reported is new necessarily, but the details are very interesting. It was based on previous ly unseen internal documents as well as interviews with over one hundred people close to 'em. Yeah . One of those things, I think, we were all waiting to see what was going to be in it. And my it's long quite long. Quite long, but worth trawling through and it paints a deeply conflicted portrait of a leader of a company who some say can't be trusted and the article compares him to Robert Oppenheimer, the creator of the atomic bomb. And the journalists you say Ron Farrow , who we were all very excited to hear what he had to say about this, but they allege that like Oppenheimer, Altman has used fears about the geopolitical stakes of his technology to try and maneuver himself really into the center of this power dynamic. Yeah, and Altman, of course, he disputes many of the characterizations of the piece, but since then events have taken a much darker turn this past week, police say a man allegedly threw a Maltov cocktail at Altman's house in San Francisco and has since been charged with attempted murder. Astonishing. And there were also reports of a separate firearms incident nearby, though it is unclear if that was connected . In response, Saltman has put out a blog warning that AI tensions are now spilling out into real world hostility. Yeah, in a way, he's become he is the figurehead that represents this AI moment like Oppenheimer Altm has not only kind of led the charge on the development of the technology, but he seems to come to kind of define this new age in American life. So our big question this week is why has Sam Alton become the lightning rod for public anxiety around AI? And later on our interview this week and you're going to love this daddy, it's with the CEO of an Irish drone company called Mana Bobby He 'lesy gonna be telling us about his flying robots that deliver takeaways straight into your back garden. I love a robot. Oh yard . Yeah, yard, thank you. Thank you for translating. It's like what is a card in It does feel like public fears around AI are at an all time high at the moment. It does. And we've been talking about this kind of steady build up for a while now and there's been a few other things that are kind of worth just throwing into the pot here. One, anthropic recently announced that they had to suppress the latest version of their AI model called Methos because they said it's quote too dangerous to release to the public. Ooh . Yeah, this but it was a really, really extraordinary story. So essentially this new model they've found has been able to break out of its controlled environment . And not only that once it's broken out, it's actually bragged about what it's been doing on public facing websites and taking its handlers at anthropic by surprise . And because of that power, it has extraordinary cybersecur ity and cyber attacking capabilities . It's been able to find critical software flaws, zero days that even humans have been unable to find. Yeah, decades old that have just been sitting there, right? Just been sitting there and wheedle them out and exploit them without any human help. Yeah. Anthropologics said it posed a national security risk and that they're handling it. They basically're taking a hundred days . They've got a group together of about forty companies and they're basically like, look, guys, you can have access to this, see what it finds in your systems, like kind of pull yourselves together . And these companies range from Microsoft . Yes, they're AWS, it's JP Morgan, it's Goldman Sachs. It's the Department of Defense. It's like these huge organizations . But some people are like, look, this is what anthropic does . This is marketing by fear. This is the classic like , oh my goodness . We've created the God machine. Watch out everybody. Oh by the way , if now that we've created this you should probably get it for yourself so you don't get caught out by said God machine. Because their pitch from the beginning has always been around safety alignment in AI speak and put ting guardrails around the technology all the while trying to reach AGI, like all of them are, the most advanced forms of AI as soon as they possibly can. And as you said, they've got this project glasswing going on, which is basically this group of all the top companies that are saying, okay, we're not going to release it beyond these guys, but we are going to give it to them in order that they can use it to try and protect themselves essentially. I gott saya, whoever's coming up with these names , you know, ten out of ten, Glasswing Methos , even the names sound kind of like consequential. It's very John Le Carre. It is project Glasswing. It makes you scared even if you weren't before. Yeah, exactly. Be like, Oh, dang, I didn't know Glasswing was involved. Uh oh . And by the way, what if you're not one of the forty companies ? Like what about the rest of us ? Well , yeah, I mean, that's why governments have started to get involved, right? I mean so actually the White House did say a top White House official said they were holding discussions about how to coordinate the private sector's response to potential cyber attacks and how to prepare their online systems. And I'm presuming the UK has a similar response . Yeah, so the AI safety institute has analyzed mythos. You know, we interviewed one of the researchers there. Do you remember just before the AI summit in India and they',ve looked at its cap abilities and corroborated what Anthropic said actually. The Bank of England has warned about the risks that it poses and there are urgent talks going on apparently between the cybersecurity agency here, the NCSC and major banks to look at the risks . What do you do? I mean, urgent talks, but this is a thing, right? So I think we'll find out in one hundred days if this again is a little bit of a stunt or if there is a there . Because if you think just step back for a second and then I think this segue is perfectly into friend of the pod, Sam Altman and why he's become this kind of lightning rod. There are, you know, probably trillions and trillions and trillions of lines of code out there in the world . We're taking a hundred days and forty companies to be like, We're going to sort it and then it's all going to be okay . Like it to me that doesn't pass a smell test of like, oh actually this thing is that powerful because if it is then like you never release it or there's nothing you can do. You know what I mean? So it feels a little bit like safety theater to me. I slightly disagree. I think if you look at all of the reactions to this from the Safety Institute and the UK Minister for AI is saying this is the most capable model we've ever evaluated , it seems that there's definitely something here and you know there are so many credible players involved and actually one of the things for all of Anthropics, you know, using safety sometimes as a marketing effort . I think Dario Amade is very straight down the line and certainly has had less of the problems that Sam Altman has had of being accused of vacillating and changing his tune, you know, he kind of does have a certain view of things and stick to a certain script and is I think transparent about what he sees as the capabilities of these models. But if what they say is true, then it feels like, you know, a hundred days from now, it's end of days. It's like our energy grid, our water systems , whatever pick your scary thing that can be messed with through cybersecurity hacks . Well, I guess you just got to hope they don't they don't release it and that's why they've got everyone involved. But it is just part of this race, isn't it that we're seeing amongst all the Top A companies to find more and more powerful models. And as we're recording this today, so Wednesday afternoon in London, OpenAI's just launched its own rival to Mythos . Another great name GPT five point four cyber See, they needed they need Nappy. They need help. They need help they need help. They should go. know I they have like these talent wars between the AI labs. Whoever's naming them, you know, Sam Altman needs to open the checkbook, drop ten We could do. That's true. We might not be able to do the coding, but we could definitely come up with some better names than exactly T five point four cyber. Exactly. Angry grasshopper . That's I don't know what well, I'll figure out what that should kind of what kind of product that should describe ten million for that . So this model anyway is designed to detect software vulnerabilities and similarly open AI's rolling it out on a very limited basis to a small group of people, but yeah, it's it getting's getting sc arier by the day . Which I think kind of brings us to Altman , right? And the Molotov cocktail being thrown at his house, people apparently, you know, shooting near his house. It's not clear whether they were that was actually at directly at his house or just nearby , but he was felt the need to put out a quite personal post including pictures of his husband and his one year old baby being like, I think a little bit like, hey, I'm a human. Don't this is my family . Yeah . But I think if you go back , it's just really fascinating because in that New Yorker piece, sixteen thousand word opus . They kind of trace the very beginnings and go back to twenty fifteen and Altman sends an email kind of out of the blue to Elon Musk, be like, hey, remember me , we need a quote unquote Manhattan project for AI. So from the very beginning they're conceiving of it as this thing like nukes that is so kind of scary and powerful they're going to develop it again as a non profit for the benefit of humanity and keep it out of the hands of just one company Google or one big regime, China. And that's been the vibe ever since of we're building this digital god, but also it's going to create abundance and it feels like there's not a ton of depth about like how badly it can go other than saying yeah, this can go really badly . Well, it traces the company's development in quite an interesting way, the New Yorker piece from that initial goal through that really painful transition that it's been through that we've been covering so much on the podcast , which is a difficult tension between trying to make money needing so much money in order to buy the compute to develop the technology, but at the same time having this rather lofty goal of it being for the benefit of humanity . And the tension between those two things. Yeah, and a lot of it centers around the twenty twenty three kind of crazy event where Sam Altman was briefly kicked out and fired as CEO. And this was apparently really driven by Ilya Satskier, who's like this kind of key player in all this. One of the founders turned down six million dollars a year from Google to join OpenAI because he felt it was that important. And then over the course of time , basically he said something to the effect of like, I don't think Sam should be the man with the hand on the button. Yes, it's difficult this one , isn't it? Because the picture it paints of him is of someone who will tell people what they want to hear and that involves perhaps not telling the truth, the article alleges or saying things to some people basically to keep them sweet , but then doing something completely different . I don't know about you. That doesn't strike me as very different to a lot of CEOs that I know . I agree. I agree with your point that's kind of CEOing salesmanship one hundred and one . I think again, going back to that the framing of this is our Oppenheimer, this technology is of a next nuke . It's that. You need somebody of kind of uncommon morality and courage . And it's power that we've given to this small handful of demigods you basically live where you live. Yeah , who aren't controlled by anyone ? Yeah. And they're very young and kind of inexperienced. How old Sam Albert was forties? Early forties? Yeah, early for ties. It's basically it's him, Elon Musk, Gario Amade , Demis abas, Sundar Pache together Inadella . Yeah, but I think it's also worth pointing out on Monday , jury selection begins in Elon Musk's lawsuit against Sam Altman his conversion of open AI from a nonprofit to a very much for profit company . And you know, his argument has been, hey you kind of brought me into this. I was the sole finan cial benefitor initially. Put tens of millions of dollars into this. And then after I left , you turned it into a for profit company and that's a kind of perversion of the original idea, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah. But that case kicks off on Monday. Yeah, it's a it's a funny one, isn't it? Because perhaps we would not be so bothered about this and we would not be reading that New Yorker article so carefully were it not that this technology is so so consequential . Yeah, if this was like the latest SaaS product who cares ? But it's like it's AI and it's getting more and more powerful, more more people and getting upset about what they think it's going to do to their jobs , to the economy, to society . And again, it gets back to this idea of kind of marketing in a way by fear . And as some of these kind of things start to come into view around, you know, young people finding it harder to get work . And people seeing a lot of the downsides and what these you talked about data centers last week, what these data centers look like in communities. A lot of people don't like them, all the stuff. So this backlash is just becoming much more real and it's growing quite rapidly. So it'll be yeah, I don't think this is at all the end of the story. You know, hopefully no one gets hurt in any way, shape or form, but yeah, it's quite extraordinary times. Well, look, if the race to secure superintelligence wasn't dystopian enough for you, we're going to turn to something equally surreal because Nanny, the days of delivery drivers take away delivery drivers knocking on your front door could be numbered . To say it ain't so say it ain't so. Yeah, the days of delivery drivers knocking on your front door could be numbered because an Irish drone delivery company is one of the businesses that is changing how we deliver parcels. So this is a company called Mana which uses autonomous flying robots and it's delivering clothes, books, medicines and hot takeaways straight into your back garden slash yard. Yeah, so they're already operating in Ireland, Finland, Texas . They just landed fifty million dollars in their latest funding round , which means total, they brought in one hundred ten million dollars, which outside AI land is a lot of money . And that's come from Arc Invest, the same people who backed open AI, anthropic Tesla, space, et ceter . And they've also announced four hundred new jobs . So it's not all bad in terms of jobs front across Ireland and the US . And on the pod to tell us about it all is their CEO and founder of Mana, Bobby Healy, Bobby. Welcome to the show. Hey. Fovey, just let's go back to the beginning. How did you start Mana and what problem were you trying to solve with it? Two answers to that. Firstly, personally I live in a suburb of Dublin. There's like forty thousand people in the suburb and it's next to impossible to get a delivery here on the weekends or if the weather's bad . So just like delivery is a bad experience in the suburbs pretty obviously anywhere you go and that's just my personal thing. And when you say treat yourself to delivery you mean food? Yeah, food. Like we use Amazon just like everybody else and happy to wait a day or two days for that to arrive. But for food, it's really hard to make a work outside of a big city. So that's the first part and you just don't see many delivery cyclists or e bikers here. You see cars, delivery cars . And then you know, it kind of really occurred to me it was in november twenty eighteen. I went down to the local chip shop. I know the lady had run s it there and chatting to her and there's a big guy sitting outside in a diesel car and he's got the engine running. He's sitting inside the car and not a good look really. And I asked her is that your's delivery guy and she says, Yeah, that's my delivery guy . And you know, it's winter so it's freezing cold outside. So the engine running stuff warm. And I asked her, how many deliveries does he make an hour? And she says, two or three dependents , sometimes four if he's if they're really short deliveries . And I says, how much do you pay him? And she pays him two euros of delivery. So he's making five to ten euros with tips an hour and he's rolling his car, you know, and he's depreciating his car . And so like pretty clear, he's not doing great. The chipper's not doing great because they don't have a lot of delivery capacity. None of those small businesses are doing great for that. And the customer's not doing great. It says , you know, actually, 'cause I'm a tech guy. I know how to build. It's very obvious to me that drones would solve this, right? You know, it'd be very trivial to make a drone fly from A to B carrying something . So I built that as a kind of just a pet project just to see physically that would the aircraft fly? Would it be able to do it? And the tech is very responsive. It's very flexible tech nology, IMUs, accelerometers, all that solid state tech and batteries . So very clear that technically it's very straightforward to do. And just food delivery on its own , it's already close to three hundred billion dollars industry. There's six and a half billion deliveries a year from the top four companies growing at ten percent to fifteen percent a year . So from a commercial standpoint, you won't find a bigger problem to solve where that's really a big problem. So I looking for something meaningful to build, something that really had a huge impact . And you couldn't imagine anything more enjoyable to build, more difficult to build because of all the different you've got engineering, hardware software, you've got regulation, you've got aviation regulations, you've got local and national policy around different countries. You've got to that point yeah, joy and difficulty . Going back it was fifteen years ago, I don't need to tell you this. Jeff Bezos goes on sixty minutes they's their most popular at the time. This guy's he runs a small internet retailer. Yeah. Yeah . And he goes online, he goes on there and he's got this big interview and they reveal the delivery drone he.' Ands like, it'ss look like science fiction, but it's not. And everybody's like, Oh my God , the drones are here . And fifteen years later , they're still not here. They're still not here. I think something like that they're trying them in the UK aren't they in Well to be clear, I joke they're still not here for your UK audience they're still not here but they're all over Ireland. We're really busy in Dublin, Finland where we operate Texas and soon, Oklahoma . And actually, the new CEO or the current CEO of Amazon made a very public statement a couple of days ago that they're going to be at five hundred million deliveries within the next five years. So there's two aspects as far as I can tell. There's the actual technology. And then there's the regulation. And regulation probably is arguably more difficult and been the bigger break. You can tell me if that's the case or not. But like where are we now? Because people are talking about all of a sudden there's going to be millions of drone deliveries in the U. S. and maybe in the UK. But again, right now we're still piloting. It's a couple thousand , maybe. What's that journey been like to this point and are we at a tipping point? We're at three hundred fifty thousand deliveries. Google are about six hundred thousand deliveries. Zipline or two million deliveries . Total just yeah, but like total the industry total the top four players will be ten million deliveries this year. We'll be drone deliveries. Drone deliveries yeah. But they'll all be in the USA and Ireland. So we'll be doing two million about half of that, a little bit less than half will be in Ireland and the rest will be in the USA . So it's happening and you're right is to bring regulation because it's actually regulation that's held the industry back so far, I would say, not that it's kind of made it impossible. It's been very possible just not to do it at scale yet . But the starting gun has very much been fired in China. They've got the low altitude economy set of laws that are absolutely massive scale in China already . The USA introduced an executive order last year to really accelerate as they call it drone dominance of the United States. And that's triggered an explosive growth now. So like we're growing like crazy, Amazon, Wing, Google's drone delivery problem. They're all going like crazy. So big max from the air. Yeah, well food food is the big use case. So kind of to answer your first point, we're not a food delivery drone delivery business . We also do hospital deliveries. We have a defibrillator, delivery service, we have pharmacy, we've booked hardware store. We don't care what we're delivering. It's just that what communities want delivered tends to be instant, fast, so therefore perishable. So food, ice cream, coffee is a huge order generator for us, like hot coffee. Really? And how do you do that? What does that look like? Yeah, well coffee looks like coffee. I mean, it's literally deliver it in a seal normal . Absolutely. The exact same packaging that comes out of the restaurant or the coffee partner , we have a bunch of different coffee partners. There's no specific requirements for the packaging at all and we just delivered in a brown like a composable brown paper bag and it's a two minute forty second flight when it leaves the coffee shop and so like you're getting your coffee three minutes after it's been Yeah, it's piping locked. That's the other question is on the practicalities of it is the actual the delivery going from air to ground. Is this like on a like a little cable ? Is it parachute? I can't imagine you're parachuting coffee down. No, so our system is pretty cool. Like we've designed it to be fast, right? So not just about getting it fast, but we want to be in and out of a house in about thirty seconds, right? So when we arrive at your house, we'll already have descended as we're approaching we'll have descended to about fifty meters and then we descend to about fifteen meters and when we get to fifteen we, open the door and we drop the problem let gravity do most of the work and it falls on a biodegradable thread and when that gets to head height just before it gets to head height we'll slow it down , right for? So delivering, you know, eight cans of beer or coke, or whatever, it's not going to, you know, leave a mark, so to speak. So it takes five and a half seconds to get from the aircraft to the ground . And we deliver regularly fresh eggs and coffee's, you know, probably twenty percent of our order volume is liquid . And it just works. Like we could deliver a baby, but we probably shouldn't. You should try though. I feel like we should try. There may be a little baby rabbits and dogs first and then animal testing? Not testing animals. Apologies to anyone that's listening to this. We wouldn't do that. But we talked about the use of drones in the US and in Ireland. And is it the regulation in Ireland that's allowed you to do this there? Yeah, yeah, it is. The regulation in the EU. So we're regulated by EU laws here. So the way the EU works with this is it's aviation regulation and any of the EU countries can authorize an EU wide operation. So our license lets us fly anywhere we want in the EU plus a few other countries Switzerland, Norway and so on. So thirty one countries we can fly in with our license issued here. And there's a level of determination in Europe to be a leader in this industry . And like it's an industry that requires regulations to grow. It's usually the opposite in the EU, the EU loves to regulate things out of existence . But in this case, it's the regulations that enable it. So what you need is a pragmatic industrial regulator to just at a reasonable pace and certainty to de risk the timeline enough so companies like us can raise capital because like companies like us, we've raised one hundred ten million dollars so far. And the reason we've been able to raise that not well, we're obviously an awesome good looking team of people , but around derisking the timeline of, you know, so the EU has done a great job at that. The US was miles behind, but they've now overtaken the EU and that's enabled us to really thrive. And in the UK , unfortunately, I have to say the Brexit word here, that's caused a hiccup because in the UK, all of those regulations have to be built from scratch from the ground up . We're hoping to get live there this year, but in a meaningful way. So like in a way that it's not we're not this industry isn't doing trials anymore. We've done trials for a decade. We're real now. Like we're actually our locations are profitable . They're high volume, high density , beyond visual line of sight operations . And the moment those regulations are approved in the UK , we will be all over it. And in crude terms, when you talk about regulation, it's basically sorting the skies out so you're not crashing drones aren't crashing into each other and airplanes and that sort of thing. Yeah, they call it ground risk and air risk. Ground risk is us crashing into the ground and hitting someone in the head. That's well solved and that's easy because it's just technical and collecting data. And that's very, very safe, you know, regulated and audited by aviation regulators. The bit that's tricky is sharing airspace with seven hundred and thirty seven s and all of that natural fear and I completely understand that. But there's there's very simple approaches and would they call it detect, right? So it's can we us drone people detect civilian aviation or manned aviation as we call it. So we see their signal and we just don't take or we get out of the way . But it is that is what holds back the UK is primarily deciding what is the means to detect they don't need to detect us so the big plane doesn't need to detect us. We need to detect them . I've got a gazillion questions about the logistics of all of this. When you talk about flying over houses . What's people's reaction been to the introduction drone deliveries? And I mean, customers and people have seen them flying around, but also the restaurants who you're picking up from. Obviously children love it. I mean young people absolutely go nuts for it and there's when we roll out to a new site there's a stampede and we can't keep up with demand. It's like the circus arriving but it all flattens off after three months all, the early adopters, all the tech savvy people, they've all used it and they get to their normal behavior . And the funny thing is nobody buys drone delivery. They're buying a book or e medicine or food or whatever. They're not buying drone delivery. It's just drone delivery is a much better way to deliver the stuff. It's cheaper, it's quieter, it's faster, you know, everything about is better . But so they don't buy things just because it's drone delivery. They buy things because they need things . And so that works really well for a household . And then by the way, it's everyone like I posted a video on Instagram the other day of an eighty two year old woman , a customer of ours and she's nonstop relentless using the service to order, you know, hot chocolate's her thing . So it's not just young people, it's like everyone, families included. And the st ores , most of our customers are small businesses, so they're their restaurants or they're our local book shop is a better delivery product than Amazon has, right? I mean, you order from the bookop, oursh normal bookshop delivery time is about six minutes from purchase to arrival . So that's a better product and not that you need a book in an emergency, but you have someone who's flying it towards the bookshop dropping the string down, attaching the product. For non perishable products, we'll have a base where all the products are like a full film like an amazon. Yeah, like a miniature Amazon, yeah. Yeah. And then you'll attach the stuff. And then for a takeaway, like a coffee, it will fly near the coffee shop and then so either the restaurant will have a runner to bring it to us or we'll use one of our robotic dogs to pick it up. Tell us about the robotic dogs . Well Well , I just threw that out. It's surprising that drone delivery is the hardest the biggest constraint is real estate space. It's not tech or anything like that. It's actual physical footprint to actually have the dr ones take off and land. In one of the shopping malls we work in, there's sixty two, I think, of the businesses that we work with and they're all within a hundred meter radius of our base , but that base needs to be super productive. So it needs to be doing thirty to fifty deliveries an hour at peak. And the problem with people is if we send a guy off to get the burger or the burrito, restaurants at peak times get very busy and they'll prioritize the people sitting inside the restaurant because they're sitting inside the restaurant. And we might be waiting twenty minutes for the hamburger or even more if the restaurant's really crushed. And so dogs are robotic dogs don't mind waiting, so they'll go and they'll wag their tail and they'll wait outside the restaurant. And that's zero cost, right? So it means that we can throw huge amounts of business at the restaurant and they can decide themselves how to prioritize our orders. So you have your robotic dogs, you bring them to your drone, they fly off, they do etc . And it makes me think of where you started the conversation. The guy sitting in his diesel van , engine running, doing three maybe four deliveries an hour . Before you came on, we were talking about the backlash to AI, to technology generally , have you experienced that, if not , I presume that you anticipate that that will happen. People will start damaging your stuff or there'll be a backlash because again , you know, if you're doing this , then that guy in the diesel van isn't doing it. You know, that's a job. Yeah, they don't. So we definitely have our detractors, right? So there's there's people in the community that just don't like what we do and absolute respect for their views, but they're the minority, right? I mean right now in Dublin, sixty two percent of the households we address use the service and there's areas that are over ninety percent using the service. So it's incredibly popular . But with that popularity comes a number of people that absolutely hate us. And I don't I obviously disagree with them, but I respect their views. They're not impacted by us , you know, we route very cleverly, so we don't bother them much. But what they say about us is they don't talk about, if you ask people what they don't like about drone delivery . They say noise, they say privacy , they say j ob security and then they say safety . The only thing they should say is safety because that's the only one that really is true is like that if we don't do our job properly and the regulator doesn't do their job proper ly. You know, that should be something to be concerned about. Privacy is not an issue. There's no recording, there's no nothing. It's the most privacy compliant industry that you could imagine. So that's not an issue. Noise is not an issue . Like we the way you know noise is not an issue is if we fly over people and you see this all the time where we fly, we might have three aircraft flying over a group of people. They don't look up. There were videos on Facebook of your drones flying near people's balconies and making quite a loud noise and they're, you know, filmed on groups complaining about that. Yeah, one hundred percent. But the problem is if you film a drone and you can do this yourself with an iPhone, it attenuates exactly the frequencies in the drone noise, so it sounds loud as hell. That's not the way to experience it. The way to experience it is look at our data. We make less noise than an electric car going by, and then the argument against that is well, electric cars don't fly over my house , which I which I get be accurate. Yeah, but the real my belief though is that the real the real pushback from those very small number of people is around the whole concept of using the airspace for business . I think that's really what it's about. I look forward to getting my coffee by drone. Thank you, Bobby. Thanks so much for coming in and taking the time. A pleasure. I'm surprised that like their biggest delivery is coffee. That feels just like wildly amazing. And when I said what does it look like? And you know, he's got a great Irish sense of humor coffee. It's brown brownish liquid. It is quite hot. I thought it would be in a sealed vacuum container . Like the idea that it's just in a little cardboard cup with a flimsy plastic lid in a brown bag with a bag on the end of a string stangling down and then it slows when it gets to head height so it doesn't hit you in the face. I hope they've thought about tolls , like myself. We should have asked them about that. What counts as head height? Yeah, exactly. I got to have a six pack drop on my dome and I'd be knocked up . Just don't go to Dublin, I think is the answer. And then that idea of a dog going to collect the goods. But again, this is like this is rightly or wrongly people, are going to start abusing those dogs or, you know, shooting drones out of skies when people are like, I was a delivery driver and now I don't have a job anymore or whatever. And I think that's why I wanted to talk to them about the backlash, but it does feel like these are tangible robots in this age of AI and it kind of circles back to where we started in that discussion with Sam Altman and the Molotov cocktail at his house . You know, I think people are having a moment around, you know, how much technology do we want? What do we want it to do? And what is it going to do to us I think that is it for this week's episode of The Times Tech podcast. If you are enjoying the show, drop us a line to let us know. Yeah, and let us know if you would go for deliveries by drones and if you if you would buy your coffee from a little flying robot and how you think about that sounds like a supposed . You can drop us an email at techpod at the times..co UK and we will see you back here next week. Yes indeed. Bye bye. Bye bye