Reflecting on AI Hype and Future Outlook

Hello and welcome to the Times Tech podcast where every week we unpack how technology is reshaping business, culture and everyday life. I am Danny Fortan out here in the Valley covering one of the most dramatic tech courtroom trials Elon Musk versus OpenAI or Sam Alman. And I'm Katie Prescott here in London where there are wild storms going on , some pretty big political ones and weather ones, I should say, but of course the tech drama is over in California where so far we've had two newly revealed billiona ires , secret informant allegations and just some plans to build cities on Mars too . So this week is a reminder that while we are busy looking ahead to the future where AI agents may replace humans and data centers could be built in space and all of that sort of stuff . Actually, the messy corporate origins of AI continue to haunt us. Yeah, and the origin of open ing ey ise exactly what Elon Musk is questioning in this trial . It's now entered its third and final week in terms of testimony , so a verdict could come as soon as next week. And it's really laid bare the conflicts and rivalries lurking behind. Open AI's rise from little nonprofit to eight hundred fifty two billion dollars company . Just a little startup like to refer to it. Yeah , a little Pete Start up and a bat I just want before we get into the trial and there is so much talk about there, I wanted to tell you about this lunch I had last week in Kings Cross. Yeah, just made me chuckle because I was just in a bog standard restaurant in King's Cross and on the table next to me was this collection of, I think Americans and French people who were no joke talking about building data centers in space. Well , you know, it's this are the times we live in. It's not a conversation you hear very often in London and obviously it was because King's Cross has become the tech centre in London. You've got obviously Google Deep Mine there , all of the British startups like wave driverless cars, but also open AI and anthropic as well. Yeah , but it's just not those conversations in the tech hubs. I was talking to our producer, yesay Marnie . And she was in a sauna as she was as one does. Sana Sana Ing, if that is at the moment in the UK and there was a guy talking to his friend about his open claw agent and Marnie overheard that this AI agent, this open claw could sense from his kind of his human's social media activity that he was missing his former person, his ex . And so he claimed that the agent took the liberty of messag ing his ex on his behalf . I can see this is worry. I mean, I do worry that Norman has access to twenty years of my Gmail. Your agent, yes. My AID job say should sorry, my open floor norman sits on top of that stuff and, you know, has potential to cause havoc . We obviously can't verify if that happened, but a post has gone viral on Reddit after someone claimed that their AI agent tool sent messages to their ex without their knowledge. So maybe they just read it. Maybe this is the person and then they posted about it. Who knows . So, you know, between your lunch and people kind of like having their bots do their bid, well, not even do their bidding, kind of go behind their back. I mean, these are these are the times we're living in twenty twenty six. It's weird weird, world. And if you listen to that special episode on AI agents and when we were talking about the genesis of Norman recently, you'll know that Norman lives on a raspberry pie community. Indeed. And I'm very excited that we've got Ebon Upton, the founder and CEO of Raspberry Pie on the program today to talk about how he started the business and what it looks like in this new era where raspberry pies are the place where open chlor agents are living. But let's start with the trial. Just remind how we got here. Like what is this mad crazy trial with all of these bill ionaires all about . So I can sum it up in a line. This is a dispute effectively about money and power and the question at the kind of core of it is this a case of the most sour of grapes or did Sam Altman actually steal a charity from Elon Musk? Open AI was founded in twenty fifteen by Sam Altman, Iliaskiver, Greg Brockman, Elon Musk, and a couple others. As this nonprofit, for the benefit of humanity, we're going to build a digital god and we're going to make sure it's good for all of us. Fast forward to two years later , they all kind of come to the realization at the same time oh , the bigger computer you have, the more powerful the AI becomes. What that meant was they needed mega mega mega supercomputers, which cost billions and billions of doll ars , something a charity would have a really hard time raising through donations. So they start talking about like let's reconstitute this and do a new thing and that's when everything broke down. Elon Musk wanted control. He wanted equity control of a new for profit kind of entity that would be like a sidecar to the nonprofit . They said no, we don't want an AI dictatorship, blah, blah, blah , it all got very embittered. Elon Musk left . He had been the sole benefactor up to that point. He had given over twenty million dollars in cash and eighteen million dollars in rent payments. And so he left and said, you have zero percent chance of succeeding . And then of course , Sam Altman did the unpardonable . He succeeded without Elon Musk. And he raised one hundred seventy five billion dollars more than any company has ever raised ever to create what, you know, what is today open AI chapter TV developer, et cetera, et c etera. And so Musk is basically saying, hey , I donated all this money to a charity . I left, you turned it into a for profit, created this giant company that's now one of the most valuable on the planet . That's not fair . You know, basically he wants to destroy open AI, send it back to its status as a nonprofit. They say this is ridiculous . So the trial has really been about that key period twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen , when they realized we need lots we need many billions , we need to reorganize this organization and that's when everything fell apart. And there has been just I mean the most extraordinary group of people coming through through the courtroom and giving evidence. So I think last week we spoke about Elon Musk. Yeah . But since then , well, who have we Satya Nadella, the boss of Microsoft or major was there on Monday ? Yeah. And then Sam Altman himself . So who have you seen and what have they been saying? So I think one of the things that has struck me sitting in this court day in and day out is it really kind of drove home the stakes of all of this because it felt like person who took the stand and it's not every person, but it's a stunning amount . Everybody who's taking the stand is a billionaire . It's kind of wild. So it's like Greg Brockman , he's one of the co founders . They're like, Your stake is worth about twenty billion . Ilya Satskier, who's like the star scientist who they prized away from Google, he is worth seven billion . Satya Nedella is worth over a billion . Brett Taylor, the chairman of the board, he's worth a couple billion. Mira Mirati, also a billionaire. So she was the former chief technology officer. So when you step back, you're like, oh my goodness , like all of these people and a lot of them are very young and have kind of come from nowhere to be, you know, b many billionaires over , you're kind of like, Oh, wow, these are the stakes. This is why there is a trial because whomever is in control of this technology, whomever is on that ground floor , stands to make an extraordinary amount of money and have extraordinary power. And I guess a lot a of lot the trial hing es on what Elon Musk knew . Yes. What he knew and what he didn't know. What's come out about that? So basically it's again, this is all about twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen , they start talking like, okay , we need to do something else other than a charity if we're going to raise the tens of billions we need . And they start talking and there are there are records of this. There are text messages, there are emails, there are even terms sheets bandied about okay, we're going to create a new for profit . Here's how it would look. We need to raise at least ten billion dollars, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . And in that , Elon Musk was like, look, I've been the founder of this nonprofit. I feel like I should one have majority control of the equity and be the CEO . And he's like, Don't worry though , if you're worried about one person being an AI dictator , I promise to like dilute my stake quickly over time, but there was no guarantee. Like there's nothing in writing that said he had to do that. And on the stand yesterday, Sam Altman was like , you know, Sam Altman ran White Combinator. They funded thousands of startups. He's like, my experience is when there's a startup and especially when that startup's going well . are Pneople't going to be like, You know what ? I'm good. I'm going to take my hand off the wheel and hand control over to somebody else. Like that's just not a thing. And especially not in the case of Elon Musk, who apparently had said to people at the time , I'm not doing any companies anymore where I don't control them . But at the end of the day , they just couldn't agree. They didn't want Musk to have total control . And he sent this very now infamous email where he's like basically with me, without my support , I give you a zero percent chance of success. Not one percent zero per cent. He actually said not one percent zero percent chance of success . And he basically left OpenAI for dead. And that's when OpenAI turned to Reed Hoffman of LinkedIn and Microsoft and all of these other people. And they made the point like, you know, after he left they started raising money, they raised something like ninety million from all these different sources, from all these different donors when they were still a nonprofit , which again is more than Elon Musk gave . And they're like, are you being sued by any of those people? No . It was very interesting. And I'll say one other point about this. Ilia Sutzkov , he is like the key man in terms of the science . He was at Google and he's like, they loved me at Google . They didn't want me to leave because when OpenI was starting, they're like, We need Ilya Satzkoover. He is the key because he's this brilliant person . They're like right before he resigned to go to open AI, this fledgling lab that was where he was being heavily requited by Elon Musk by Sam Altman, by Greg Brockman. They're like they didn't, want me to leave. They offered me an extraordinary amount of money, six million dollars a year , which back in twenty fifteen, just for a random scientist at Google Deep Mind is like quite a lot of money. He said no . And he recounted that email from Elon Musk, the zero percent chance email . And the judge, she hasn't asked many direct questions to anybody testifying , but she asked him that she's like, so was that true? Like did you have a zero percent chance of success? Or is that how it felt? And he said , he compared the AI that they had developed at the time back in twenty eighteen to an ant . He's like, today and his delivery was amazing. He's like, today it is a cat . Then it was an ant. And I was like, what? What? Like that's that's why Google needed him Exactly , exactly. But then I did I did do this quick look up on Claude actually anthropic. I was like, compare the neurological power of a cat versus an ant . And it was actually quite informative . So a cat has two hundred fifty million neurons and about three hundred million in a cerebral cortex, blah blah blah blah. And Ant has two hundred fifty thousand . So there is a thousand fold difference in just the neurological horsepower between he was making a comment profound point. I am almost certain. I don't know him, but I am almost certain that he was like, I'm going to choose these two things because there's that thousandfold difference in neurological power . But anyway, I thought it was quite funny. The other thing that people are watching from this trial, of course, is what it tells us about the character of Sam Altman and it comes at a particularly interesting point because it follows on from that very, very lengthy New Yorker piece. Yeah , yeah, where two journalists spent a year profiling Sam Altman, doing lots of interviews about with him but also with people around him . Yeah . And criticized him really for lying something, which he 's obviously denied . Has anything come out around that in the trial and is that something that Elon Musk has tried to play on at all? Yeah, his lawyer Stephen Mullow on cross examination yesterday it was really interesting . He's like, Should anyone believe you ? Do you tell the truth? Do you always tell the truth? And like , Sam Altman, you kind of he's kind of like I believe I'm a truthful person he's like, Should we believe you? Should the jurors believe you? Do you tell the truth? Like and then he went through like a laundry list. He's like, Well , Tasha McCauley, she was on the board. She accused you of lying . Did she not? Oh , and he was kind of like stumbling to and he was like, what about Helen Toner? She accused you of lying. Elia Saskiver, he accused you of lying. Elon Musk. He and he just like went down this list as like a slow motion character assassination , which was really, I think, effective in terms of what he was trying to do , but it gets back to that core question of like this sour grapes or him being deceptive doesn't mean necessarily he stole the charity in a way that is provable in a court of law from Elon Musk . You know, so but it was like it was quite uncomfortable to watch Sam Altman up in the witness box being like the first twenty minutes of questioning was just like going through a list of people who he's worked with closely who all accused him of some form of deception. Sam Altman and OpenAI of course strongly dispute these claims, and Sam Altman has also disputed the allegations in that article in the New Yorker. So the biggest question though is when will we get the verdict ? Maybe next week, today, as we speak, is the last day of evidence, and then they're going to start deliberations I believe either tomorrow, Thursday, recording Wednesday or Monday And again, very important . The jury is advisory. They're going to give their verdict, but it is up to the judge to decide . So we'll see, but I think Musk wants them to basically unwind the for profit, go back to a for profit entity, give up one hundred fifty billion dollars, and remove Sam Altman and Brockman from the board. In other words, he wants to destroy this company. Keep in mind three years ago he founded a direct competitor in XAI . It's just the most astonishing case. And it's like just one of the we've said this before a thousand , tim butes it is an extraordinary to see under the bonnet as well of all of these businesses and to see these emails and to see these private diaries and hear the conversations. Okay, well, should we move on from what the billionaires are doing in court in San Francis co, as fascinating as it is. And I guess you're going to be on ten hooks now, right? For that verdict. Yes indeed. Yes indeed. Danny get to court now . Yeah, they did say we don't know when the verdict will come, but typically you'll have half an hour you have thirty minutes to basically and they're going to send out like a email claxen all caps , basically verdict in , get here as quickly as possible. Okay, so don't leave your phone now. Exactly. For a week or so. Let's move on to our guest today who is Ebon Upton, the chief executive and founder of Raspberry Pi, and complete move away from what you've been looking at in court. Erbin is a very, very Cambridge British tech entrepreneur and his business Raspberry Pi makes these very cheap , sometimes cheap as ten pounds, very, very small, sort of almost credit card sized computers. And it's a company that he started back in two thousand eight when he was director of studies at a Cambridge College, desperately trying to get more people to apply to do computer science . You don't have to try very hard now, it's like one of the most popular courses, but anyway, different era and it's having a bit of a moment right now because people like me are using raspberry pies to house their agents because they're cheap and they don't use huge amounts of energy. Raspberry Prix actually listed on the London stock market a couple of years ago, rare for a tech business, and it's now worth about one point four billion pounds . Welcome, Evan. Thanks very much for joining us. Well, thank you for having me. Evan, so I'm our way out here on the west coast . I've known the name raspberry pie and the kind of what vaguely what it is, but give me the origin story. I'm a child of the nineteen eighties and I learnt to program on a BBC microcomputer, which was this incredible idea actually that your state broadcaster would have a microcomputer, very nineteen eighties thing. And there was one in the corner of my classroom and later on there was one in the corner of my bedroom . And there was never a day when I decided I was going to become an engineer, but you kind of just got lured into it by the kind of ambient programmability of your environment. And I arrived in Cambridge thirty years ago this year to study physics and computer science and everybody I was surrounded with on the computer science course had exactly the same introduction to computing as me, right? Because we historically haven't been particularly good formally teaching computer science to children. I think we're better at interestingly, we're much better at it now than we ever were before. We're much better at it now over the last ten years than we were back in the nineteen eighties. So the universities industry had this amazing supply of people who'd kind of trained themselves to be computer programmers. I've been programming computer since I was eight years old. So I've been programming a computer for a decade by the time I arrived at university. And then what happened during the nineteen nineties was those machines kind of disappeared, mostly disappeared. And the PC and the Mac are kind of the only surviving examples of real general purpose computer to people's lives. And they're not particularly programmable. You can choose to program them, but they don't have that architecture where you turn them on and they go beep and they give you a programming prompt. So you've kind of gone you went into this world where young people were much less likely to be exposed to programmable computers . That led to a collapse in the number of applicants to study computing at university. It was also leading to a decline in the number of slightly older young people available to go into industry. So if I were to go out into the engine to the engineering floor here at Raspberry Pi, you'd see there's kind of there's kind of a gap . There aren't a lot of thirty something year olds. There are quite a lot of people once you get into the early forties, you start to encounter the people who had my kind of experience in computing, but there was certainly a window of time where people weren't becoming engineers. And really rock Raspberry Pi we started at the Raspberry P Fyoundeation in two thousand eight , and the goal was to provide people with a piece of programmable hardware, which was affordable so affordable, programmable robust , and fun . And we ended up making this little Linux computer. We launched it in twenty twelve. So we then go on this we go on this kind of strange journey through actually into education in a very indirect way so into education via hobbyists. So we sell a sell a bunch of units in twenty twelve, mostly to adults who already know about computing. But then gradually through diffusing it into that community, it then starts to leak out and it leaks out into education and we've had some, you know, we've had, I think, some good impact in education, but then also has leaked out into leaked out into industry and then has really led to the commercial side of raspberry pie becoming more of an industrial an industrial electronics company. And for people who don't know what they look like, they range from the sort of small credit card circuit board style raspberry prize, are right for sort of forty fifty quid ? Yes, these little I think they have cheapest ones about ten quid . But yeah, these little sorts of things that are about the size of a credit card. And I mean, obviously, 'cause the BBC micro is a all of these nineteen eighties computers that we were inspired by have that same form factor . It's a computer inside a keyboard. And so once we when we were in twenty twelve, when we were, you know, two guys in the shed, all we could make was a little PCB. And so you would plug a mouse and a keyboard and a display into it. And then as the organization became a bit more sophisticated , we grew the ability to do industrial design injection molding. And we did, you know, from twenty twenty onwards, we've been offering something ever so slightly before Apple and about a week before Apple launched the first arm based MAC products . We launched this product that we called Raspberry Pi four hundred, the first generation of a raspberry pie kind of built into a keyboard. How many are out in the wild now? Roughly it's roughly seventy five million Raspberry Pilot is right. five million . And it ends up being after the PC and the Mac it ends up being the third most popular general purpose computing architecture in the world. But you are having this moment, this agent moment. Can you talk about like how you cause as we talked about, I've been in this courtroom in California the last two and a half weeks and it's all about kind of the future of humanity , what AI is doing, what it's gonna do, and all these really big weighty kind of subjects . How do you see this moment from where you sit? I think we've had a surprise , haven't we? We're about fifteen ish years out of the last AI winter. So AI has got goes through these, went through these winters. Yeah. Where people became very demoralized people starting in the nineteen fifties thinking it's going to be fundamentally fairly trivial to build computers that can at least do tasks like look at a scene and describe the objects and people go through these sort of periods of great enthusiasm about different models of how AI is going to work. And we're about fifteen years into this current period where it's become apparent that if you bring together some fairly old ideas about trying to build neural like structures , structures which are inspired by the structures of the brain with very large amounts of computing power and critically huge amounts of training data that you can build things that systems that do really complicated things, slightly worryingly systems that do very complicated things whose creators don't fully understand don't understand how they do those things much better than we really understand how our brains do have this kind of partial understanding of how these systems work. So we're kind of in this interesting era , probably went through ten years where this was mostly a story for kind of general purpose users of AI was most ly a story about image processing. And then suddenly in twenty twenty two , you emerge into this world where the LLM line of thinking, the large language model line of thinking suddenly bears fruit with tools which feel like they do things that general users can get value from. So we've kind of come through this kind of chat pop era and now we're into this agendic eraa this ide that you can then take some of those capabilities that have grown up , give them access give them an ability to iterate, give them access to your things, you know, to your to your local environment, give them access to your data, tell yourself a story of some about security. I think people are trying to find out, people are really at the moment try to figure out what story they want to tell them selves about how comfortable they are with how much of your , you know, how much of your your data you like for and see and what the security what the opportunities are, what the functional opportunities are, but also what the security threats are from this. And when did you first see the impact on sales at Raspberry Pi? Because a lot of people are using raspberry pies as a cheaper way of running agents, not only for buying the product but, also because they use far less energy than say a Mac, which is the other Mac mini, which is the other thing that people are using to run over costs. Yeah. I think honestly, I'm not sure we have seen an impact on. I'm not sure we have seen an imp act on sales. There were clearly millions of instances of open glore running on raspberry pie hardware. And I'm sure that we've sold incrementally tens of thousands, at least tens of thousands of raspberry pies to people. So people sort of kind of recap all of these tools, you can run them on your PC. They're just software. But one of the stories people tell themselves about security, one of the arguments that people make is that these are sufficiently powerful autonomous systems that you benefit from putting them on some dedicated piece of hardware. The MacNi and the Raspberry Pi are the two classic pieces of hardware that people have chosen to run claw software on. Now, I'm sure we've sold tens of thousands of new units, but I think what you have to remember is almost everybody who's inclined to run openclaw already owns a Raspberry Pi. And so I think many, many, many of those units are running on Raspberry Pi. It's not especially demanding piece of software. It's not like you need to go absolutely to the bleeding edge of our product line in order to be able to run one of the Clore platforms. You talk about coding going back to when you're eight years old How do you think about this moment in terms of like just you kind of went over that trajectory but we're in this moment where we're moving from these kind of like really amazing answer engines to these like action engines, these things that can go out into the world and do stuff . Do you feel like you're living in the sci fi dream of young Evan or good, bad indifferent? Are we sure we'd be completely freaking out like some people are I don't understand why people are freaking out. Honestly, I mean, maybe I'm just slow, right? But I don't understand . And there is a say more about this because this is a big because like I feel like out here is marketing by fear. It's like white collar blood bath . We're all gonna be turned into paperclips. We're going to be enslaved by the machine this intelligence that is going to be so much all of that stuff. There's this we play this game of what's the punchline and you know, you know, maybe these tools aren't any good for anything apart from writing apart from writing stories about how amazing they are and that's the main thing people use and eye tools for is to try to move stocks around. Matt Levine has a one of whom Bloomberg has this wonderful term business negging that he characterizes Sam Altman, in particular, his style of marketing as being business digging. But if you say to somebody my company makes amazing technology, people think, yeah, well everyone, you know, I'm not going to invest you. All of the businessmen say they say that. But if you say, My technology, I'm really worried about it, might it kill everybody onth Ear . People think, wow, okay, that must be incredible technology. I'll definitely invest in that. So obviously, as you say, there's kind of there's kind of a marketing through fear element here, which is either conscious or unconscious. But I think for a lot of the people who are advancing these news, I think they're very sincerely held views. And I think people are caught up in this kind of contagion. So people should still learn to code in your opinion. People should learn to Well, people should learn to program computers. I've always been nervous. I've always had this personal nervousness about the use of the word code. And I haven't really quite understood or been able to articulate properly why I was nervous about using the word code for this thing that we hope that young people will get excited about. And I think that it boils down to the idea that code privileges the typing , right? People say, Wow, these LLM platforms, these gigantic platforms, they're great at coding. They are, they're okay at coding . But yeah, it is incredible that they can code. But what people forget is that that's actually a very small amount of the work when people say it's going to put all the computer programmers out of work they say it will put all the coders out of work. Coding, sitting in sitting down and typing in computer programs is a very small part of the day to day life of a software engineer of a computer programmer. And so this is this kind of puts some limits if you made the coding bit, the wraggling of fingers and typing and hitting keys bit infinitely cheap if you made which the tools don't do, but if suppose they did do that , it still wouldn't get rid of the actual job of a computer programmer , right ? And generally sort of you can argue that the tools might become sophisticated enough to eat all of the other bits of being a computer programmer. But those at that point are basically AGI that replacing all of the computer program basically requires you to build as kind of an AGI or superhuman a human or superhuman intelligence. Just to end, I mean, we haven't spoken yet about the Raspberry Py Foundation. And the foundation is to encourage people , I guess like the business to use computing and to provide computers for the developing world . That's it. So it's to get young people all over the world excited about computing and about electronics . And Raspberry Pie, go back to the start, the diagnosis of the problem was that we had there was a missing physical object. And the interesting thing is that was the dream at first when Lears and I and other founders were sat down at the start of this . We felt like we'll just make this object. We don't need to make any money selling it. If we just make the object and get it in the hands of make a thousand and get them in the hands of the right thousand kids , then mission accomplished, right? Get another hundred applicants here for Cambridge. Is that parochial? What's fascinating about Raspberry Pie is, of course, partly because of the volumes and partly because we found a way to make it and eat out a little profit in each unit. We were able to fund the foundation's work and the foundation has then gone on to do it a more' trsaditional educational charity. It trains teachers, it runs after school clubs, it creates teacher training material, it works with governments on curriculum reform . And the money that it raised and we'd given I think we,'d return ed about fifty million . It's on the order of fifty million dollars, fifty million pounds, fifty million dollars to the to the Foundation and Dividends before the IPO. They then raised another one hundred eighty million . They've been extremely successful at leveraging that flow of money from us with philanthropy money with individual and corporate philanthropy . And this is now an organization. If you think we were thinking, how do we get another hundred applicants a year to computer science at Cambridge. This is now an organization that can do that work but can do it at scale all around Britain and increasingly does enormous amounts of work in India, does enormous amounts of work in the United States, does enormous amounts of work in Sub Sahara and Africa. So it's really taking those lessons that they prototyped in their first ten or fifteen years of their existence and then deploying them globally at scale. And we still do back to the AI point . We believe this is incredibly important. There is nothing about these tools that frees people from the obligation to be able to . And that's what really that's why that's why I want my children to learn to program computers is it teaches you to think you can't effectively program a computer in six fiber or two assembly language or C or Python or by prompting flawed code , you can't effectively program there's all different ways of programming a computer and you can't do that actively if you can't think. So it's interesting, don't you think to hear from someone who is not as yeah, go AI, it's gonna change out. Yeah , yeah, he's not AI pilled, which is you know what, Katie, this is why we have this podcast because most tech podcasts that's just people like in the middle of Silicon Valley, everybody's, you know, reading from the same hymn sheet. And so it's nice when you have somebody like I think there is a real value in being far away and being in a different environment and seeing these from the outside and hearing from those perspectives of like yeah, I've been doing technology for my whole life and this is a really amazing tool . The end . I was great hearing him talk about those cycles and looking at AI from the nineteen fifties as someone who not only has worked in tech his whole life but, also been an academ ic. Yeah. I've seen those cycles . And you do get a sense of hearing these guys, especially in court, like, you know, they all love science fiction growing up. They were all computer nerds growing up and you do feel like they are kind of living out their childhood fantasies and really leaning into it in a way that you're like , how much of this is actually real? Like are we approaching the singularity? Are we all going to be enslaved by the machines? Or as he says, like, no, these are just really powerful tools and this is, you know, kind of part of the evolution of technology. I just think it's it's great to hear somebody who's a bit more got his feet on the ground. And again, nobody knows what the actual truth will be, but I think it was great to hear from him. It's also really interesting to hear about Raspberry Pi. It is such a quintessentially British , very quirky company, I always think. I mean, how fascinating to have the foundation as such an integral part of it to have a hardware computer company that's making computers in South Wales . And it's such an interesting concept to be making these very cheap easy to use computers with an educational mission as well. I hadn't realized it was the third computing company in the world. No, it's amazing. I just go back and listen to exactly what he said there, but yeah, that was fascinating. Yeah , so anyway, great. What an episode. Covered a lot, as always, there's a lot to cover. Indeed Well , I don't leave your phone for a moment. thirty minutes a minute window. I have to wait for the All Caps email from the court get, you know, drop everything. It's drop everything into that car if you go . Exactly, exactly Look forward to hearing all about it . Yeah, so who knows if this time next week we could have a verdict. I'm not sure how long it'll take, but obviously we will bring you all of the details, all the sordid, interesting details of this really bizarre case. But that is it. I think for this week's episode, if you are enjoying the show, drop us a line. Please at techpod at the times dot co dot UK that is techpod at the times dot co dot . And we would love to hear your thoughts on today's discussion , what's been going on in court, you got a raspberry pie , quirky British businesses, whatever it is . Exactly. Until then, see you next week. Bye. See you next week. Bye bye