Quick Fire Round and Closing

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My name is Manooche Zamarodi, and I am taking over as host of TED Talks Daily this week to explore what technology is actually doing to your body and mind In special interviews with scientists, doctors, parents, artists, and more, we're going to dig into your physical and mental health on test we think about our bodies differently now, how we relate to new innovations that are amazing, but also a little scary, and how we can live a healthier life in this high tech era. Tune in on TEedTalks Daily, wherever you listen to podcasts ACast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere Acast Ducks Society finds it safer to employen. They find it easy to trust men. They believe in what men say. And so yeah, I feel I want to kick fucking dolls down all the time. I feel hotly properly angryry about it Hello and welcome to The Tw Meets. I'm Marina Perkis And I'm Gemma Forte and on the Trawl meets, Marina and I get to chat with someone we admire and find interesting. We discuss political topics they're passionate about, find out what makes them tick and determine what level of despair they have or haven't reached in terms of the b shittery that's happening in the world. And today we're meeting someone whose deep knowledge of history brings real depth and perspective to her political commentary. When she's not hosting her own podcast with LBC's Ian Dale, you'll see her on programms like Jeremy Vine, writing acclaimed books, or lending her expertise to historical documentaries. Often with a royal flavour. Welcome to the trawl, Tessa Dunlock. Hello hello, than you. Hello, Tessa. It's lovely to see you here today and we're going to avoid just having a gossip about the shows that we're all on because that would be boring for everybody else. But drilling for us, we'll do that another time. We've actually done that offer. Haven't we? We had a little gossip offffair. We didt then we're like, right, we must crackle. So we will So Tessa, before we get really stuck into all sorts, we're going to be talking about flags up polls, British values, being podcast partners with Indale, we want to know more about the fact that you've got a PhD. You're a doctor And yet so often you are booked on telling to talk about The rooyals Why is that? and do you love it? That's a really interesting question and I would have answered it slightly differently even a month ago. I booked on royal programs. and I always have this joke. It particularly happened in the wake of the Mxit, that hideous sexist term and where it intersected with the late Queen's death. So suddenly there was a kind of royal blow up and I had just finished my PhD At the great old age of well over mid forties, actually, careering towards my sixth decade, I emerged as a doctor. It was a great antidote to wrinkles. It was like a sort of free Botox because I do think it gives you something extra having an academic title. It's a sort of secret weapon that I can raw if I want a lot to work those out. I'd rather just get the Botox, I think. Well I could probably have both actually. Yeah. But I think that it made me so poor doing a PhD then I couldn't afford any Botox anyway. But I remember I lost my job. I sued a sex pest early on in my thirties and literally discovered my entire career was over and I was in the gutter And at that point, I thought I want something that no one can take away from me So whatever my job title is or not as the case may be, I want to have this doctor title, that' mine. And so that was one of the great motivators actually for doing the PhD aside from the fact that I got funding to study the part of the world that I love most, which is Romania. I absolutely get that and completely get rid of imposter syndrome. And you know to be fair, sometimes people say to me, why are you going on to talk about that? And I say, I don't know. Whereas you can say, because I'm a doctor, which is fabulous. But the question I want to ask you is, are you a royalist I'm yes I am. But I always have a rooyalist light. I was gonna say there was a pause. Yeah, I am, I'm hesitant becausecause I think it doesn't mean I necessarily endorse the structures or the operation of the institution or indeed necessarily the individuals operating within it and particularly the staff they employ I think Gives us A superpower and a soft power in a very noisy world that we wouldn't otherwise have and that's been exemplified in the last three or four days Now you can talk about the utility of what Charles has done But without question Most Western democracies looking for a way of communicating effectively with this very unhinged leader of the free world would chew their right arm off for what we were given at a time when . imeinister wouldn't be invited to address Congress. And that has happened before, Tony Blair, Margaret Thatcher. But if you think that we're at rock bottom in terms of our political relationship between Starmer and Trump, and yet we were able to platform our king with a script written by our executive, our foreign office, not written by our king and therefore really in some ways, allowing us to speak not only to Trump to the White House, to the MAGa movement, but to the wider world about where Britain sits at the moment. and that is an extraordinary privilege afforded to us because of this institutional monarchy Can I give my thoughts on that? Yeah, go for it. So if we look, I understand and I think it's been a great PR exercise for the king I just but in say at time of record, just to be clear, literally the king has just visited Trump. So that's where we're at. Yes. So my point being, yes, it's been a great PR exercise for the King. I can understand why he was chomping at the bit to get this opportunity you know, to stay relevant for the monarchy to stay relevant. It's his moment. there's damage control on his side, given everything the monarchy's gone through with his brother and whatever. But what are the success metrics of this? Well We talk about soft power. We talk about the fact that know it's got headlines and Congress did a standing ovation. and Trump was jealous of his speech But what does success actually translate to? Becauseuse I can't help thinking A real like thorough analysis of this is going to be It ends up with nothing because of the nature of Trump and how volatile he is. and he's a malignant narcissist who the next moment that Starmer does him to piss him off. will just turn on him again I feel like we have basically lent our soft power to star in Trump's show, to build Trump's, you know ego and his, you know, his reputation presence, if you like. And it's just going to be shut on, let's be honest, the moment that Starammer does something that Trump doesn't like or the next time that Trump does a three AM truth social frenzy I would hate to accuse you of being a bit short termist, Marina. but if you take the long view, which was very much what everyone was investing in over the period of the state Visit our relationship with America is far deeper than with this one president and this one administration. It goes back two hundred and fifty years. There are cultural connections. There are connections between two peoples. And it's about that cross pollination and the long term bond. When people talk about a special relationship, and you'll know that recently, Christian Turner, the ambassador, was going to hot water for saying, o, the only special relationship is with Israel Certainly in the political moment, that's true in terms of their extraordinary political and military alliance, the like of which we haven't seen Israel really have with America. But in terms of this con which delivers, by the way, whether it's in terms of our export economy, with the media, with film, our tourist relations, Americans coming here, us going there. You can't necessarily break it all down into military assistance or trade statistics. It's something deeper and longer term than that. And I also think through the workings of our Constitution in a more positive light. Again, you know seeing is believing, perception is reality. Often Britain has been pilloried on the world stage recently because of Brexit, because of the behavior of certain members of the royal family and our political elite in relation to Epstein, for example. But this was a kind of way of silver plattering Oh otherwise sometimes quite ugly imperial past into a sort of an acceptable phhilosophher King model. And given what's happening with democracy at the moment, what worries me is that heavens, you know Suddenly our king, unelected, the hereditary principle, seems like the reasonable guy in the room And that speaks to our times. and I think it's another reason for holding on to monarchy. I think we have to disagree there because I think Yes, you'll have a colb of positives and negatives, but for me, I think what the Kings visit has actually done is normalizeed Trump made him more palatable. They're sat at this banquet, they're all having this meal, they're having this speech as if it's a best man speech at a wedding, normalizing the tyrant that he is damage that he's inflicted on people the suffering And I think that's the bit that jars. L we could have had a moment It actually could have been as our soft power, why couldn't our soft power have actually been exploded by the world saying, oh wow. King did something different rather than pandering to this man child It's interesting. I actually thought it's weird. It's so odd. The other thing is I straddle these two worlds because we live in this new echo chamber economy where things about clicks and so polemesis win And empiricists, people who look at the facts and figure out their arguments somewhere in the middle lose because actually we're driven by the kind of click economy. I always find it a challenge because I never when it comes to royals, I never support the Sussexes unconditionally, or I'm insufficiently anti royal. But I think there can be this kind of halfway house. and I think what the King did effectively. That's not to say I don't think they should be more transparent, that I don't think they should call out Andrew on the Epstein thing and open up their own financial doors, et cetera. But what he did was to an extent actually remind Congress of The role of a constitution that works with us checks and balances, that he reminded them of the need to defend Ukraine, that he reminded them that actually we served alongside America when Article V was triggered in Afghanistan, the only time in NATO's history. And I think that in terms of hearing that, we can't force the MAGa movevement or Trump to hear that But it was a very effectively delivered message by a man that even Trump didn't feel he could, you know trash. In fact, he just wanted a bit of him. Two kings came the post. from the White House. And I think that Yeah, we can smash up Trump. But at the moment, he's the one with the military hardware. Ukraine is where the majority of young men are dying, and we can't afford to totally alienate our long term ally. I know that's really uncomfortable, but it's real politic. As somebody who went on TV and was completely against this visit For various reasons, some which Marinas underlined, and mainly, yeah, the headline was condoning someone who I believe the victims in the Epstein filile. So I think in the fullness of time you know, it's going to be like a Jimmy Savill. And then you're like, who did we send our king to see? But I have to admit, I have experienced something over the last few days that's been sadly lacking for a while. and it was a bit of national pride I felt quite proud and I'm not a monarchist particularly, but I thought King Charles did a brilliant job I found it wonderfully refreshing to see somebody be able to string a sentence together. written really well thats spe withith all that shade thrown, as you say, things that would go right over Trump's head. And I do think it was a moment for us to go, yeah, because we've had such a battering. But I also agree in Marina, I think in the long term, it' mean nothing. I also want to say when you said about shared history, I was like, Colonialism It's got so much in common now Yeah. And on that, my next question is Do you think that more should be taught in schools about the bits of history that we have that aren't so palatable. Again, I find that really interesting, the way in which Trump cast our colonial past into this very positive kind of MAGa prism I had I was challenging Ian, you know Hard rightite center, old Ian and we lock horns frequently. And he didn't have any issue with Trump talking about the annglo saaxon veins flowing with courage whereere I felt that made me feel a bit uncomfortable, that it spoke to sort of shades of the Anglo Saxon racial superiority complex that was a large part of the sort of high Victorian era and the motivating evangelical. Yeah, And our way is the right, but actually by the end of the nineteenth century abolished slavery, but there was still that very much that sense that Anglo Saxons were the predominant and the superior race. And I felt what Trump said kind of fed into that and I definitely it made me feel uncomfortable. H he didn't actually talk about blood flow It was courage that was flowing in these Anglo Saxon ves, but nonetheless, there were sort of echoes of Alfred the Great Do I think history's appropriately taught? Funnily enough, my daughter's seeven and she's just come back with the kind of wind rush and broken down each WIN and each one of those letters reminding us of a particular unsavourory narrative in our past and also the way in which Britain's identity changed And I don't think people understandstand this sufficiently that really up until the Second World War Britain's identity had predominantly been formed overseas. So the great British brand wasn't built in Scotland or England. It was built building the empire, this common project that that united previously four warring nations, four corners that have been clobbering each other successfully or not and Suddenly, what you have is this shedding of empire, which begins actually just straight after theecond World, or the loss of India and then subsequently the creation of Israel. And we move on into the sort of winds of change when we're literally dumping colonies like nobody's business in the sixties, Howarold McMillan, et cetera And then Britain is defined not through its outward activities beyond its borders, but suddenly by incoming individuals arriving from our former colonies to live here and we're defining ourselves against the idea of the ininverted commerce other inside Britain. And that throws up a series of tensions that I don't think we've worked out how to resolve. People felt Suddenly under threat inverted commerce despite the very small numbers of individuals arriving from, say, the West Indies, and who were visually coming into urban areas, very much focused on. And we know that that led to a series of immigration legislation that really barred people on the basis of their skin color because we didn't apply the same rules to individuals coming from Australia or Canada. And the other thing that losing the Empire threw up was this rise of nationalism in Wales in Scotland. and of course, Northern Ireland, a slightly different story. So suddenly if you don't have the common British glue, what is holding your nation, your United Kingdom together? where is this common project And so while we pillery the empire, we pillery our colonial legacy and there's lots to get angry about. At the same time, I never think we understand the benefit of the British brand, which is its flexibility. becausecause actually that narrow definition of English, against which people think they've got to ward off the incomer, the immigrant, the foreigner and the Scot, or the narrow definition of Scotland, even though I grew up in Scotland sounding like this, I'm not allowed to be included because I don't sound right British brand is much more flexible and arguably inclusive. And if you ask migrants who haveve come into the country first and second generation, they're more likely to identify as British than they are say as English because it's a slightly more inclusive brand. So you can get really angry about Britishness, but when and if we lose it, because what will eventually happen in Scotland, I will really miss Britishness What does Britishness I mean to you on a more sort of emotional level because I I love being British. I think you're right. I think overall, despite everything we've fed on our algorithms and sort of Fage and all of that, I do think British people in this massive generalization kind Funny seelf deprecating, dry, dry. ye totally unstylish. If you go to any airport in Britain, we are not very well dressed. It's not like going to France or Italy, wherever they're put together. But they're funny. And you know, if you look at our comedy exports, know some of the best comedy, the best writing, the creative arts, the music that we produce on this small island But you know, you go anywhere, you go and sit and somebody will be friendly on the whole you know, I do think we're great. And I think we are You know, we have to remind ourselves there's lots of good things because we hear so much negativity all bloody time. We do one hundred percent. But I love you. And this part has surprised me actually, Gemma, because of your flexibility. you know that idea that one can review one's opinions of the king or of national identity, that somehow it's fluid and there is no right or wrong which is I think where the national conversations ended up that were either on one side or the other side, whether it's what's happening in the Middle East, whether it's monarchy, whether it's being pro anti your nation. Beacause again, the idea of British history and what history should we teach? because Black history month' quite a big part of the curriculum. certainly where I live I live in South London, so my daughter goes to a school which is predominantly black I wouldn't know the ratedown. C certainly my daughter goes to a secondary school that's about seventy percent minority ethnic. But I'm also fascinated by the way in which our identity changes and resists change. So the huge number of migrants who came in in that kind of new Europe period when first of all there were the ten accession states and then there were the Romanians and the Bulgarians arriving. and how our culture adapts to the sheer scale of that migration, so millions of people arriving, and how they likewise respond to their new identity. And it's a side hustle that's taken over my life, which has actually weirdly inspired me in terms of believing in our constitutional electoral setup. I never really used to understand the benefits of first pass of the post. If I'm allowed a quick word on that later, Id love it having a constituency MPS suddenly saw the merits of that, which I'll explain in a sec. But just So I know most particularly the Romanian diaspora, there's over a million of them. They're predominantly white. They were always viewed as the lesser Europeans. They arrived in the crossairs of Brexit and they became the sort of by worord for people we don't want right now And what's fascinating is the sort of way in which that first generation adult, whether it's a high end doctor in the NHS or a builder, they're all quite quick to culture up and hide their identity But their children whoo are in school right now It was fascinating. I held this event, because I didn't have a G CC. There was twenty Foreign language GCs in our curriculum Romanian's the second spokenoreign language in Britain and then they have a GCSE and theyre pissed off. But the adults than you very much.' so grateful. you're giving us this timeon. Thankk you, the ammbassador is grateful, All the grown ups are grateful. and the kids They came down from Leeds and they came down from Northampton And I can't do a Leeds accent, but they were passing as English in commerce, one hundred percent You know, made in Brain, except they're Romanian, right And they are like Tuth to p in it. One of them goes, It's messed up the system. I've got to come and tell you about this. D I need my GCSE for my language? Like she's like one hundred percent, you know you would think, I don't know what you would think where she was from, but youn't you wouldn't have put put her down. Br That's a British vue right there. Yeah And all the adults in the room, all the politicians All they all just set up Because there it was, the entitlement that we allow ourselves to have if we grew up in Britain And those kids have it, those Romanian kids have it because of our education system has made them feel it's okay to be seen. It's okay to say, whereere is my identity on the curriculum? What about me, mate? And often that's flipped on us some we're like, oh you're going to do national service, you're not grateful enough. You you don't understand. But actually there's something really empowering about feeling like You are entitled to something in this country. And I see that and their parents don't have it because they came from a culture that crushed them, a communist culture But those kids have grown up in our Democratic system believing that they are actually owed a fucking GCSE in their own language. And I felt in that moment this weird pride That Britain had allowed them embolden them like that, but also that they loved their Romanian heritage. And there was some kind of magical. I know it's really neat and probably won't be at the edit of your pod. But you know there is room for us. Oh my gosh, you're joking? This is brilliant. No it bloody will. Yeah. It my favourite bit. This has my cockles. And also I kind of relate. So my momum and dad were immigrants that came over from Sicily and it's kind of grateful Grateful to be here and just did whatever job they could do and work their socks off. And I was very proudly Italian. I supported Italy at the World Cup I wore an Italy sh. When Italy played England, I was very much like, you know, And I think it's that. I had the best of both worlds. and actually I'm so super proud of that now. I love my Italian heritage, but I love being British. and actually everything there you articulated I've not been able to put my finger on it I think you're absolutely right,ess Today we'll attempt a feat once thought impossible, overcoming high interest credit card debt. It requires merely one thing, a soFI personal loan. With it, you could save big on interest charges by consolidating into one low fixed rate monthly payment. Defy high interest debt with a soOfI personal loan Visit SopFi dot com slash stuck to learn more. Loans originated by Sopi Bank NA member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply NL S six nine six eight nine one So Tessa, you've defended Harry, formerly Prince Harry quite a bit. before we get into the rights and wrongs of the chaos surrounding that particular family rift, Here is a quick clip from Channel four comedy The Windsors. I love it her too. It's the simplicity, isn't it? Everything back to basics Over there by the Statue of Oprah, please guys The amazing thing is, we've paid for it all ourselves without trading on our royal connections. Any news from Netflix? We're meeting them later. Itch. When I was channing just now, I was thinking about how you can only live in your full knowing if you stand in your full knowing? Absolutely. Can you stand and live in your full knowing If you don't go back and reconnect with Wills, thank you for that caring and empathetic inquiry Actually, I have been thinking about him a lot recently I remember our fight so clearly I haven't exaggerated any of it. J. Y But after what he did, I just think he's a turtle. Wed just like to have a bit of fun on the tll. Now my question is A actuallyctually, you've already referenced nuance. You've already referenced that. We are capable of perhaps changing our minds or going, maybe I wasn't quite right on that position or there's nuance What I've noticed is The Harry William thing, that Kate and Wills, the Harry think. Why are people so absurdly tribal about it? Because my feelings on Harry and Meghgan is that they're a bit annoying, but also leave them alone. Yeah. It's unbelievable. I find it extraordinary, the way in which I can be a hate figure for two camps now because you're not if you're a genuine Sussex supporter, Sussex campps squadies, I think they're cool. They've actually got a name. you You you can E. Harry and Meghgan, you can't call them out for the fundamental flaw. in their thesis which is plain for all to see. On the one hand, they criticize the model that they've sort of recreated. I mean, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out why they've done that. But at the same time, there's a huge amount of cognitive dissonance And actually Harry, God bless his soul. I think there's just something eminently likekable about Harry. I think that's one of the kind of the excuses for genuinely forgiving all the contradictions in his two sided argument that he constantly subjects us to. But if we agree that on the one hand, know Harry was rude about his family criticized it, et cceter. But he actually to be fair to him W was never an antimonicist, he turns up to the coronation He is in his DNA are rooyyal He himself has said that. he just didn't want to work under the British dime, under British scrutiny for the British taxpayer so that we felt we could scrutinize their every move in a way that clearly they felt was entrapment for want of a better word. They wanted to be able to do all that. and yeah, they still are scrutinized. I mean, look how we obsessively picked over their tour to Australia. Anyone would think we were slightly envious, darlings. But at the same time, I can see why it's a different form of trolling or scrutiny a lot of it is still trolling because at least they're in charge They decide what they're going to do. They work out if they can financially justify it or they can raise the money to do something philanthropic. I think that is fundamentally threatening to all institution of monarchy, partly because they are so charismatic and they're greater than the sum of their parts for obvious reasons of what the pair represent. Oh, I'm just going to stop you right there, Tessa The charismatic thing, I have been very, you know, I've defended the two of them And I, you know, I think I understand why they've done the way they've done. And I kind of support Meghgan in that, you know, she's had a rough ride in the press of absolutely absolute gun for her. but fringe an awful lot of some of her content. And I really want to like sort of just not mind her. and I've even defended her. There was one guy I was speaking to that was like, oh, really hates her. And the thing I could understand is he hates her because some men believe that she has got Harry under the thumb and they hate that. But for me, I saw an Instagram video. I was like, No, this is it, I'm done. I'm done. And she was basically giving tips on how you can gift wine like bottles of wine or bottles of champagne and don't no, no Forget the gift bag, the standard sort of rectangular gift bag. No no, fetch yourself a lovely satin or silk scarf, preferably Hermes for five thousand pounds and just wrap the bottles nice ten ten ten quid bottle of chardnay, wrap it in the Hermes scarf and that's how you give it to your friends. How cute That was my life You like we're done. We're done. Marina, that is because as discussed, you are Anglo Saxon Italian and Mean is American. She's Californian American. She is literally a Californian princess before she became a princess. So there is a huge cultural gap between you and her, but she is performative She was a little star on suits. That's no mean feat. Daddy was a lighting director. Mum was a yoga teacher. I was like, you know, she came not from the bottom of society, but she didn't come from some sort of acting dynasty. And she kind of made it in her own way. and that's because she has a presence on screen And she knows how to conduct herself and she knows how to public speak But actually when I was talking about Christma, I was particularly referring to Harry. I think that he does have the common touch. I know this, if I'm allowed to get a book mention in, I spoke to several families, he doesn't he was is most effective, I think, on the commemorative circucus. It's the big part of the unseen role work. We do see it at the time of VE Day or Armistter Sunday. but Harry was really good at making families who'd lost children husband ss lovers. in the Iraq War and the Afghanistan war, contested conflicts that aren't celebrated and put up there in big likes and we don't have some great big anniversary for them every ten years. We're kind of like this about the legacy of those wars. But there are hundreds of families in this country, thousands who have lost individuals in those conflicts serving in our country's name for our queen, then quQeen. And he made those families feel seen, they all tell me that he heard their pain, he made them feel relaxed. They felt like they were speaking to one of their son's friends. He said, Oh, I should be standing up. You don't need to stand up. that is a form of charisma. And he knew how to josh. He knew how to make them feel relaxed. and a rice vitamin. Let's we forget, I'm just gonna to say that. We've talked about a good egg then in the royal family What about the Badic about Andrew rotten egg, I think we could say H the monarchy, in your view, ever suffered this kind of reputational damage? And now I'm awware that we're comparing this to say a man that you know chopped off the heads of his wifees D How does it compare? I think it's always best to just start from sort Victoria onwards because before then they were a political power, the monarchy. and they sort of traded their political hef for popularity for becoming a symbol of the nation, which is what happened from the Victorian period onwards And then they're sort of, you know, that the repository for all our ambitions and for Gemma's newew found pride on the other side of the Atlantic. I think Andrew is a massive sleeping wound, a huge problem. They tend to react. Seping wound. I Seping It was such a great insult should bank that for the next time we're Jeremy Byine with An and Wooddacom Spttic. is Spttic. The problem is and what they've done and they do this very effectively, they're a bit like the Conservative partarty in terms of their survival instincts, actually, the royal family, is that they've tried to sever him now like a sort rotten arm that's got gangrene you know, hopefully it w't spread to the rest of the royal body if we just cut it off I have a couple of problems with that. One is The system facilitated Andrew. He's a royal product. In fact He was the first child born of a monarch in Buckingham Palace for well over a hundred years because of course, the quQeen was just the Duchess of Edinburgh when she gave birth to Anne and to Charles. He was incredibly entitled, totally purposeeless We see that replicated in for example, a lot of Harry's angster after he leaves the arrmy and before he finds Meghan. And we saw it as well in Margaret. It's fine when you've got this fixed role. Look how Charles has grown now he's become king. It's much easier when you have a clear I feel as a freelancer, I wake up feeling at sea. but if I've got four deadlines in a day, I'm like, o my, I'm smashing the world I'm so successful. know So if you think being a spare, you're constantly kind of blobbling around And all sorts of people are tempted by you and are tempting you. And if you're weak and not particularly intelligent and there's plenty of those in the royal family, then you are prey to invidious influence. N not to say that he didn't have agency in any of that, Andrew, but he's a product of the system. and the system by trying to cut him off, is clearly not leaning into any idea of reform which is a big mistake, I believe. And the other iss you, I think Cutting off Andrew a bit like cutting off Harry, although they're very, very different for obvious reasons. You can't compare them is that lack of redemption. And surely, if you are the defender of the established faith and you are our first family, certainly our most famous family I think we need to see redemption. If your brother has done something terrible, I posit this as a question. Not being convicted for it, by the way, not in prison for it, but have pretty much re vibe that his behavior was rific. Would you then sever him? Would you have no communication with him as his sister Would you cut him off totally I do think there might be a line that's been ross I think potentially, yes, Tessa. I think potentially would There is a line. I'm so far from having anything like that in my family. My brother is like the most decent, sunshiny, emotional, intelligent kind person. But I think personally, at the moment, I'm feeling so upset about the fact that no men have been held accountable for what's happened within the Epstein files, which gets glossed over all the time. But is it Ted Lu stood up literally making a speech the other day saying out loud Trump within the files has been accused of sleeping with children So yeah, I think they're l us. I think there are lines. Okay, forget the the siblings an easier bond to break. I'm trying to think when I lost contact with my big brother actually, and he certainly hasn't been accused of anything. But as a parent, the late quQueen, for example With your children, if your children behave in an obscene way or an inappropriate way or a way that you can't even believe, do you cut them off? I wouldn't pay off somebody for them. I wouldn't pay somebody off. No. Tessa, No. We've both got sons. Right. I don't. And although mine is five. although mine's only five and Gemma yours is helmold hold? nineteen I think we can envisage that They would never far as Andrew did. and they would not continue to have the backing. likeike you know, she allowed him to come on those quite royal, quite public trips not, I think, reading the room at all. and that to me was condoning from the queen and then we find out she's you know helped fund his settlement to Virginia Geuffrey, which is was essentially, you know, to hush her up and to make it stop And that to me is not how you behave as a mother who has tried to say guardrails or consequences to your son. It's fascinating. First of all, these huge issues around the payoff, because I think it was probably untaxed money in the Duchy of Lancaster. We need to look at Ral Anets as it's a really urgent pressing problem because actually one of the reasons why Andrew was able to evade accountability was because of the lack of transparency when it comes to this extraordinary. I mean there is rich as plutocrats, as was famously said by Dimbleby at the back end of last year. But at the same time, all the money gets funneled down the line of succession So because you don't have any inheritance tax between the heir apparent and the sovereign. It is an abomination which seems fairair. But it also makes exacerbates poor behavior and spares and jealousy, etceter. because everything gets left to the individual who's going to inherit the throne because they won't be taxed, which means they also ran spares like Andrew always feel they're playing catch up or they don't have the money that they want, et ccera. I'm not accepting Andrew. He's an abomination. He's an absolute abomination. But I'm suggesting that in a merciful model and having worked in prisons, and he's not in prisons, let's remember, but whatever people were in for in the prison for serving their time, you knew if we're going to claim we're a civilization and that that we operate on the basis of forgiveness Do you stop visiting people in prison then why keep them alive if we're going to treat them like that? You see, I'm taking the extreme example here, but I have an issue with the cruelty of that. I agree with you that rehabilitation is where you want to go with in terms of anybody who's done something bad, but he's shown not one abs of contrition. He has not shown one smidgen and he's had plenty of bloody opportunity. notot one cell of ye, maybe that was actually with hindsight. He's so bloody entitled and pompous and up himself and thinks he's owed ever a thing that it's impossible, in my view to feel sorry for him. I get that He's an absolute aberration of a man. If you Place. everything negative about the royal family and you turn it all into this caricature of Andrew. So Andrew's all that's bad. King Charles addressing Congress is all that's good. So once again we get this Royal landspe without nuance. There's a b there's a binary narrative. One is white, one is black in terms of moral virtue notot the reality. We all know that that isn't from our own personal relations with individuals in our lives, we know that life is about nuance, even though we play out this public pantomime, whip him, tar him, never speak to him again. And actually the problem, I think, is that he's not been held to account. How can you forgive someone if he hasn't even been punished yet Even though actually we know he's living in a form of purgatory despite it being a privileged purgatory So for me, it's just hugely complicated because I want my royal family to be merciful to be an example of humanity. And it's failed with Harry and Meghan. and it's even failed in the way that they're trying to just let Andrew take all of it. And I think I could understand why they publicly can't be seen with him. I agree with that. But they could if they could also sort of say, and we're also going to look at How to make sure how to future proof so that Louis or Charlotte doesn't fall foul of not equivalent behaviours, but perhaps other temptations that may come their way. I haven't ffeend that anyone would do the equivalent. But I haven't heard them do that. I haven't William talks of change, but it's superficial know actually let's work out where your political lobbying lies How you actually get away with stuff as massive landowners with huge portfolios, unseen, unaccountable, and you operate on a different set of rules from the rest of us. And that does make me feel deeply uncomfortable. And I think the whole Andy thing is a bit of a sid show. And it stops the rest of them being held to account So you said you wanted your royal family merciful. I want my royal family confined to the history box. So let's end this section with a clip of Russell Howard doing Stand upp. Isn't it interesting that the people that hate refugees also love the royal family? That's so I' very fucking similar? We pay our tax money and I live in a fucking house for free job s. One of them's a sex offender High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face. Unless you power up with a sofI personal loan, a so fI personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment It's even got super speed. since you can get the funds as soon as the same day you sign Visit Sfi. com slash power to learn more That's SOFi dot com slash PoW ER. loans originated by SFi Bank NA, member FDIC terms and conditions apppply NMLS six nine six eight nine one Okay, Tessa, let's talk about being an opinionated woman because that is something that we relate to. in itself, I just find that such a bloody ridiculous trope because of course everybody has opinions unless you've got a totally empty head. but the difference with us three is that we go public on them Do you ever find that tough? Are there ever days where you wish your opinions weren't out there for all to see? And do you ever get backlash? constantly feel incredibly angry And so just a full transparency, I was a host, like a presenter on various different radio stations in my late twentiesite quite young for a broadcaster, a female broadcaster at that time. And I came on stuck when I had this hugely problematic boss Anyway ended up that I seeed him and then I then I went and did a PhD in history. And ever since then I've been an opinionaed woman. So Mew Yorx because you've got this very successful podcast and I do too now have a podcast. But I think generally, if aside from your pod, you are the click drivers or we are the sort of content deliverers Bet paid, better platformed white ye middle aged men. And I like them all, donon't get me wrong. I kind of like Pers Morgan even, Jeremy Vine, Jacob Bce Smogg and even my own podcast partner because while I meet her on equal terms there, we are I joke on the pod, he ownns ten times more than me. He ownns ten times more than me. It's not a joke, actually and I I put that down to the authority gap. I put that down to the fact that they are male. Society finds it safer to employment They find it easiy to trust men They believe in what men say And they are more easily triggered. Bye A woman I don't know how you Walk around that and I don't know how you cororrect it It's not the blame isn't entirely gendered in that women also often let down wom we know historically reasons for doing that. But there's a lot of research to suggest that women would rather listen to Ian than me, for example. Even though I promise you, I do much more homework than him I tend to be Ian sorry about this, but I tend to be right when you're surprise us actually. And so yeah, I feel kick fucking doors stand all the time. I feel ple properly angry about it and I don't necessarily have the answers. I sors about that. Yeah, isn I used to be a presenter. I used to present shows like House Price Challenge on ITV, Wedding day, all sort pretty vacuous sort of stuff. But I enjoyed it and I'm a good presenter. I would not be considered for anything like that anymore. The minute I opened my trap and came out as anti Brexit That was it I stuff to myself and I don't I have no regrets, but sometimes it's scary because I know that I am unemployable Yeah for many things that I would be able to do, but I just simply wouldn't be considered because my opinions are out there. We've stuffed ourselves a few times, haven't we? We've been sort of blacklisted from a few places J Gemmah and I Have we? Where have we been blacklisted from? I don' think we' allowed back on We're not going to be going on talk TV for a while, are we Right, right Yes, got you. Got you. There you go, there you go. And Ian Dale, I did used to go on his what's his LBC show an evening called CrossQions Cross questions. I don't think I'll be going on that again. So I was on holiday recently, had a little run in with your podcast partner, actually, Tessa I'd had a few Aarus spritzes during the day I was on my holidays It happened to be Thatcher's birthday Ian Dale posted birthday Margaret Thatcher and I just responded She's deadian. I remember that. But funnily enough, and Ian is a reminder. very I'm deeply fond of Ian and he's been trying to get this from AGC lobbying all these politicians. He's been so generous, giving me his advice and really supporting it actually And I've also got to say, just speaking to the sort of binary nature of our politics I've had as much support from conservative MPs for Rainian GCSC as I had have from Labour MPs, notot reform Richard Tice, who's got loads of remains in his constituency. He goes, up, my problem is and none of them seem to work And I p it me shut up ere do you get that from? I bet they bloody do and I bet they work really hard. How he attacks affairs, Richard. How are they going? Yeah, ye, exactly. But anyway, but with Ian, I find has huge respect for Gemma. And then and I said, what about Marina Ian? And he said, Well, she's incredible because she is one of the first original self made political influencers and he said, for that, I absolutely take my h. So he totally gets this' ridden the wave of the establishment media. and successfully. And he also gets that for those coming in the younger female generations coming in behind is If it doesn't exist. Th legouts don't exist. we're not going to be Jeremy Vines anyway. But even if we could be, it doesn't really exist anymore in the way that it did So while he does have spats and he didn't talk to me for three years because of Brexit because I was So so heartbroken by Brexit, I still am, I still think it really doesn't hold a R than He does hold a rush for qu a long time. yeah, but funnily enough he seems to have gotone over. I think it's because you're having me on the pod. I don't know, but he did say that about he understood, I think, and it's been good for both of us you know, working alongside each other. Listening to each other. ye. Yeah. One of the problems is is that we don't listen anymore. and we don't read the same stuff. We don't read that we don't consume the same not the same news every night. We don't have these kind of national go to cultural converging points. I think that's really scary because actually we're all talking into the wind. Yeah. And again, Tessa, I'm going to just give ourselves a pat on the back here. I think It's made me think over the years that we've done the trarawl. and Ian's name comes up because obviously we're trarawling through everything that's going on, what people are saying. And there's been so many times we've been like, o, don't agree with that. But there's been so many times where we've v useded his clippers a positive. And he's a brilliant broadcaster and he's very pretty clever and he knows everybody in politics. Iess he does. The first time I went on cross question, I felt so intimidated oody Peter Hitchenss there wanging on. and I honestly didn't actually understand what he was talking about. And then he was like, what do you think? I was like, o Godd. But I don't know. like nothing I'm thinking about W l later. Anyway, no, I think actually Peter Hitchens is an unusual thinker, Peter Hitchens. It's like Russell Brand. He just uses such bloody flowery language. You're like, what are you actually saying?way ually we're recording a tll later and it's got a clip of Ian in it because he really takes to task this American commentator who's slagging off England and it's a go Ian moment. So we are I fully capable of doing that. Ey the way, I didn't ask you though. whereere do you see? How do you see the authority gap being closed? I don't, you know, I mean, the sad thing is I'm fifty two and I'm just bloody grateful to still be doing all these things that I love because when I was a young presenter, doing ITV, doing Disney, doing BBC stuff Children's BBC pointint You thought that as a woman, you were off tey by forty.. You were done So actually, I'm like This is great People are still having me on to do something, but I have said in the past, you know, oh, I'd love to because I can present, I can do open talk back, multi camera I know how to do that And they just won't consider me. likeike, No, you're too valuable as a panelist. I'm like, can you give me a fucking by rider? But can I suggest something else? Can I that actually it's also because you're on the left and bizarre, it may not come across like this to your listeners, but I'm perceived to be also on the progressive left, even though you know I'm a monarchist. I think just finally I don't want my ex political leader, Tony Blair you know in a golden carriage or in the equivalent of sort of Britain's version of the White House in Buckingham Palace, I like the separation of symbols from politics and America and the disaster it's having at the moment with all its symbols also cast through the individual who's their political lightning rod, demonstrates how damaging that can be for the national brand. to get back to the idea of women opinionated women, you're actually more likely to be given a role, an anchoring role if you're slightly right of center. You're seen as I think less Dawn Neeson's an example, but she's probably not well enough known to be an effective example where she might get an anchor wester. Yeah Yeah and they're right of center. They're on the comfortable establishment right, the sort of daily mail safe, won't rock the boat too much, right? And even though actually I would say we wke I wouldn't put Isabelle there to say no I wouldn' put Isabell there. Oh, and by the way, think Isabel is a brilli presenter. She's absolutely brilliant. In't I wouldn't put on the right of center. But it's nothing against the ability of the individual. It's just where we tilt in terms of our perceived idea of a reasonable or balanced public discourse. If you're slightly on the left you're seen as more of a provocateur than if you're slightly on the right I agree. But can I say with optimism? I do think the gap will close, but I think it takes more women in positions of power Take for example, on a very small scale this podcast, Gemma and I run this thing. This is us, this is our baby. We decide We are sheEO. We decide who comes on, we decide who we platform, who we feature, et ccera, et ccera. And that is it at a small scale, on a bigger scale. We need those women, those women of a certain age. canan I say that to be going, hang on, you're valuable and you don't expire at the age of forty, fifty, whatever. And that's when I think we'll start to see it flip Yeah. Tessa I think I was going to say we've all spoken about the downsides of being goby women. I personally wouldn't have it any other way. It is also a privilege to be able to, you know stick up for what you think is right. Don't always get it right. but you know when people take you into their hearts and go, wow, thank you it's just fucking wonderful. And also, you know, when we die one day, there's all this video out there of us being Yeah they can make a show real at the funeral, just of us being really bloody gobby. So let's have a clip from GB News Now you were on with Lawrence Fox, and you were talking about a very vicious piece. We talked about it on the Troll that Jeremy Clarkson wrote about Meghan. It was horrible. Now in this clip Fox is being very calm and you aren't, you're fed up and you're bloody enraged. which we can relate to. But what's really shocking in this clip I found on YouTube is the reaction from this female newscaster in Australia who featured the clip on Sky News, Australia. That is hatred towards women. and I don't think that's acceptable. Look, I agree with you. Yes, so let's change the law. No Yes. that's why I don't agree with you. Why not?ange I don't think it's illegal to hate people But you know the problem is what happens otherwise is big bears like you, Jeremy Clarks and Pers Morgan.. Because actually on this occasion, you've said, w, I wouldn't even say that, but generally You like to poke with a stick. You go as far as you can, you push the right wing envelope. And as I've explained, you men, Nigel Farage Danwooden, have disproportionately large platforms. You get little mees on a doctor incidentally, but nonetheless just a little woman on a new bear batus for clicks. Click, click, click, click and actually Jeremy Clarkson will be emboldened by this. And Ionest not tell you she wasn't done there. The misanderry, the hysteria, the determination to silence voices. She doesn't like Tessa Donlap was on a road en. knock little men off their platforms like you. L. I thought I was a big man. What there you said I was? Because you hadil Patform, darling. All right, darling. Well, I scut out of your cave now and leave you in your cave. It's not a cave. You're more than welcome stay' quuite angry. You you make me angry L. Well, I'm very sorry. I've literally said nothing Tessa, C we I're gonna have to add in a round of applause after that because that was a fucking brilliant clip Well done I feel seen. I feel seen after that clip. But the Australian newscaster, like what? You know what she is? She's a woman that carries water for the patriarchy. That's what she is Yeah And I'm afraid to say it guys, I know you've got a successful podcast here, but you would earn five times as much if you sat on the right of center than if you sat at the left because that's where the money sits in society. Right fuck it, Marina, let's go Gemmen, let's take this one off the line. Pivot If you simply worked our listeners would be like, you are. Where feathers are going to be arranged best in her nest. I remember working years ago with Mark Dolan. You remember he became a sort of clickbait guy or on He was a left wing kind of cool comedian back in the day. He was very liberal, wasn't it? one hundred percent. So the number of people who sell out to the wr because is where the money sits. You've got the tech bros sitting alongside Trump. I mean, you don't need a great big signpost to help explain why it's easier to pillorory people like you and me than it is actually to pick us up and spread the narrative a bit Funnily enough, I wasn't surprised by C response And I wasn't particularly surprised by Lawrence Fox's. He subsequently has been got rid of, isn'tly, for being an abomination. He walked off at the end and then they got me together to do another interview with him and he walked off in the middle of the interview. And he wouldn't let the interview be aired because I asked him about his privileged background. you know, he was born into privilege, notot a royal family, but an acting dynasty. And he wouldn't let it be ai. What a bloody snowflake. No. he wouldn't let it be air He wouldn't let it be out. And then I was like, how' that freedom of speech? You're allowed to know have a go at me, and I'm not allowed to question you on your own terms. How can you ask me about my mother? You know, you got all like, What? It was extraordinary Tessa, come on what you're saying then is like you've got to play the long game. Mike Fox is not on GB newews anymore. Mark Dolan and whats all Wal is doing. So we might not be earning as mucharch, but you know, little and often, little and often ladies ch we can lookck ourselves in the mirror as well But also I'm not in any way complaining. I'd much rather campign for no money for a Romanian, she says, because at least it gets me up in the morning because I'm so fucking angry with the examples. Do you know what I mean? Its It's what makes you tick And maybe that speaks to my privilege That I, you know, I have a house, I have a husband. if I don't earn for a month, it's uncomfortable and I'd much rather earn. But it's not going to be a matter of life or death or insolvency. I don't know what that. Who might just throw stones at her? You know, if that's how she earns money, that's how she earns money. It's not my gig. It's disappointing, but it's not surprising. I think that's what I'm trying to say there is, as you say, there's more to life. L the trarawl is the love of my life. Yeah. It actually is my third child I ad it. it was less painful to give birth to. Let's do a quick fire round with you, Tessa. and then we always end the traral with a pudding. So favorite politician. after my remaining GCC event, getting politicians to come to a side hustle is extraordinarily challenging. And I have to say I was utterly inspired. She's a conservative, so I want you to brrace yourself by Caroline Nokes. She sat through the entire event. She stood up at the end and she said, I'm here because Romanian mothers in my constituency have wrg me up and said we don't feel scen. And I'm here as a mother and as the child of a French teacher, and I see you and I understand you and I support you I was incredibly like a first generation Romanian grateful for that. And she subsequently emailed me and she's followed through I also and perhaps an equivalent I was given from Stella Creasy, perhaps I'm more surprised by Caroline Nokes and that is my inbuillt bias against the Conservatives. So I expected that level of engagement from Stellareasy of Waltham Stow. Thankk you very much, Stella. may And so I have to own my own partisanship there, but both of them for me are icons. Caroline particularly stood out. I've got to say on Monday em iss Caroline, the one that you had beef with at that party? I had an argument at party but I was really pissed and being really goffy. But by the way, to support that, lots of people have got great things to say about her and she's obviously absolutely in it for the right reasons. But yeah, Caroline su I ended up having a chat with her. to I told her soon I was corrupt, and she got really pissed off of me. You don't know anything. I was like No She's not someone I' want to cross boords with I felt I could feel her presence. By the way, there were men there too, but I'm going to always support a female politician over a male one. know there were some inspiring mle. Oh, that's good, yes Good, good. Guilty pleasure when it comes to television I think I have slight ADHD. I find just watching Telly on its own quite dull So anything that I can subtitle in Romanian, I feel like I'm progressing some other part of my brain at the same time. And therefore I watch quite a lot of Netflix because they subtitle. and I have a weakness for Bridgerton, I've got to be honest. And I watch it and sometimes I go back my mate has as well Get the fans out. I do. Is it a weakness for any particular person within Bridggeton Cast? Funnily enough, no. I love the fanciful way that it's thrown up. or recast history and let's have some fun with it. I do worry going forward that the BBC and other period drama creators are being equally liberal with their casting. and that then bakes in this idea that somehow there wasn't total racial segregation I mean the idea of somebody having an aristocrat having a black lover only in equal standing, that that might pass as real history. That worries me slightly. Given it's entertainment, I can let it go If that makes sense. I don't want to whitewash history, think is what I'm trying to say Yeah. Starmer, leader at the next election Probably not, but I don't necessarily think that we're going to have an improved leader in time for the next election. I think he's certainly flawed He's clay footed tinred. I think the level of ire and the level of criticism that he's been the recipient of is disproportionate. And I think that spes totally agree. More to the system I think the shortfalls of democracy in the face of an increasingly illiterate scrolling addicted society. And that also speaks to why the King got attention over deemocratic leaders in these times.'s how's the really scary time that we live in. I'm quite scared. If we think Kase Stam is an evil guy, then we've got it really quite wrong. Yeah, borrowing has fallen, unemployment is down. Like none of these things get talked about It's just extraordinary. But but but and I know our listeners Jet Tessa, I have to say it because I not that evil And Eil is a very strong word, but there'll be people who will be despairing at his stance regarding the Middle East and his unrelenting support Israel and for many and myself included kind of makes that word out actually. I agree but that they are the compromises of power. That's all I would say. And a replacement labour leader would find him or herself in a very similar position. I mean, that's a whole other podcast about why. But anyway, let's wrap it up here. Tessa, you've been amazing. Is there anything you wouldd like to share with our lovely t listeners? Anything they should go and read listen to? I would just like to say because it's all I can think about at the moment. and if I'm not going to actually have to sell my house to fund the campaign, I need to