Improvisation and Creative Soulmates

Truth. This is the trruth. I'm Jonathan Mitchell. and lately we've been releasing conversations in between episodes, talking with the writers about where these stories come from and the ideas inside them And today I'm talking with writer Mac Rogers, who wrote, Let's not and say we did. And this will be a spoiler filled conversation. It's really meant to be listened to after you've heard the story So if you haven't, please go listen to it first We'll talk with Mac after the break. This interview will be available in the main feed for four weeks and after that, it will be exclusive to our premium feed, where we keep all of our interviews and bonus material That's also where we can listen to the show ad free Go to the trruth podcast d. supportingcast. fm The summer months are starting, the weather is changing And so are my clothes. And if you've been listening to our show, you know that the truth is sponsored by Quintince. 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Now available in Canada too That's QuincE dot com slash truth for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns ince d. com slash truth On the surface, Mac Rogers' newew story Let's Not and say we did appears to be about a married couple who would open their relationship. But by the end, it becomes something a little bit more unusual. It's a story about creative partnership and finding someone who helps you become more fully yourself. And I started our conversation by asking Mac what made him want to write a story that begins with ethical non monogamy I'm going to get very slightly TMIed, but not very TMIed. so don't worry, listeners. I'm going for Most of my life, my sex life has occurred within relationships. And there was a period of time between one relationship ending and me meeting the woman who is now my wife of many years, where I was like, well I'm a man. I'm a heterosexual man. donon't men like one night stands and playing the field. I should go play the field and go have some casual sex. And I didn't enjoy it at all. So I became fascinated by the idea of couple where they tried to do this because their relationship is at a real standstill. And it works for the woman and doesn't work for the man because the joke that is nearly always made with these sorts of stories. you see on TV movies or whatever all the time. A guy is really restless in his relationship. He talks his reluctant girlfriend into opening up the relationship or the marriage. Then she ends up like dating tons of guys. he can't date anyone and he's super jealous of the guys that she's dating. And like that's sort of like the hackneed version of it. I was like, what if he just actually just like it.. But then he thought that would make him look like a loser to his wife. at exactly the same time as she's meeting a lot of exciting new prospects. Right. Yeah. And in your story, he ends up making up sexual encounters And in your early drafts, it was just him alone doing this. And we quickly discovered that he needed co conspirator. Yes to have someone to talk to. Now and I had already written in a very early draft of the script just to I needed to dramatize that he didn't like casual sex. So I wass like, okay, the opening scene should be him on a date with a woman and then they go home and he bails on it. In the course of writing that scene though, I mean, I just came up with the character of Leslie as a throwaway character. She's going to just be there to establish problem this guy or not, you know, the dilemma that this guy has we're going to show that and then she's never going to appear in the story again. But I found myself enjoying writing Leslie so much. He had kind of like a mischievous sense of humor that came out naturally during the date scene suddenly just sort of hit me What if she offers to help plann to deceive It was created by two people who are just getting to know one another, so it functionally becomes a new relationship. And suddenly and we writers live for these moments, suddenly all the light bulbs started going off Yeah And in this in this story, Jeff And I guess Leslie too U has a sort of, um compulsory need to do this, you know? Yeah. And I'm wondering like Is that how you feel when you once you start writing a story? Do you feel sort of just this compulsory need to revisit these characters and get to know them better and see where they lead My glib answer would be, I wish that I have that because Jeff can't wait to start doing more writing, whereas I'm a dreadful procrastinator. But yes, I exist in this weird space where my brain is constantly working on scripts, but then I have this terrible procrastination problem with actually writing them down. What is it about that that you find compelling? Once you start sort of pulling on that thread? What is it that's so satisfying about making up peopleeople that don't exist Um It's rarely that I'm making a statement, but more that I'm trying to like investigate something that I haven't worked out for myself. A lot of times people say like, oh what is this script trying to say? And I'm like, Well, if I knew what it was trying to say, I could just say the thing. More often it's about an idea where I'm not settled yet and I don't know where I'm going, so I needed to write a script because I couldn't just say what I think So So what do you think you are trying to work out with this story Well, I have a I have this fascination with people who live quite differently than me and people who live in a way that I just kind of couldn't imagine living like, uh, uh, uh, you know particularly given that ethical non monogamy and polyamory are They seem to be growing. in popularity. I don't know to what degree that's been measured. but I'm out of the loop. I have not heard anything about ENM. Oh, believe me, I told my and there's no reason my wife would ever be on my laptop, but I made a point of telling her early in this process. Listen, I just want to let you know, I'm doing a ton of searches about ethical non monogamy and open marriages and polyamory. That is it's for a script. It's for a script I swear So and I think, you know, I sort of wanted to struggle with the idea of I find it so fascinating that people can function in open marriage situations because for some people, it really works for some and it was a really important thing that I really had to struggle to keep in every draft of the script. Something that was really important to me was It's working for Ingrid and it should never I never want it to turn out that it's not working for Egrrid. Right. It's not about E and M going wrong. Right. Another thing that does for the story, I think, is that it puts pressure on Jeff for it to go right for him as well. And I really wanted to try to write stuff that I personally don't identify with at all and see if I could find a way into understanding it. That's a big part of the fun of writing is to take situations that you yourself are not interested in, but see which parts of your personality come closest to it. In my case, it would be like the storytelling and the artistic collaboration aspect. Is there any way that I can sort of imagine partarts of me are adjacent to this kind of thing that I find so hard to understand, but that seems to work for a lot of people who are not entirely dissimilar to me. That I think is what I was struggling with with this story. Yeah. Did you learn anything through the course of writing it Oh You know, u, it might It might be all be kind of centered on sort of a key climactic line that Jeff says to Ingrid where he says, um, She says, you don't want to sleep with other women, but are you okay with me still seeing other men And he says, yes, because I like not being everything for you. I much prefer being something for you. That was a line that kind of that wasn't this kind of line you live for, it wasn't pre planned. It came out organically and it was like, o, okay, I hit something there. because I think is an interesting thing is where it's like, even if you don't have an open marriage, you can't be every single thing for your life partner And even as a couple, it's important to maintain other relationships in your life, usually platonic ones, but where each of you gets a little something that you don't get from your partner and there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's perfectly natural. Yeah And so how did you feel about how all these elements came together in the final piece Did anything surprise you that you didn't expect A big part of it was the music Um Uh, u u, you know, like in the back of my head, um, Uh I thought, you know, I thought And I think I said a little something about this to you. unfortunately, you were interested. I maybe this might kind of have like sort of high heist sounding mus that like, this. Right you know, like, Uh the kind of stuff like when when Stehen Soidderberg is panning a camera across a Vegas casino and I mean, that was a thought that I had too I mean, I was think because they're plotting, you know, And so you kind want a rhythmic thing it kind of creates a sense of urgency and purpose to what people are doing if they're talking over that kind of music. And so I thought Well it would be nice if there was a groove to it, you know? Yeah, like like a some kind of, um sort of almost like retro Um bass and drum oriented music. L what you what what I got from your music when I when, you know, when I was listening to the bounces of this one Um It felt less heisty and more like I felt like I was feeling the exhilaration of creativity. Oh, that's great. Well, I mean, I thought I was worried that I would sound too porny, you know. Okay, now I retroactively am hearing it. now when I'm makeict sure using I was like, but when I wasisted, it was like, oh, Jonathan wants to show that they are both realizing that they've. They've happened upon something that they both really enjoy And that's what this music is doing. Like a part of them is coming online that they've not. Ultimately when I was looking for music, I felt like my directive was just find something with a nice groove to it. It's not too active. It has like like just sort of walking tempo Everything I ended up finding sounded like porn music to me. It's like is there something subconsciously that's going through me that, you know Um, And I think there was something about the story that and the way that they were talking and the way what the characters were talking about that had a sort of a more like we're making up erotic fiction. You know, and I think actually You know what? I'm going to listen to it with that in mind. But I think potentially theres there's kind of a droll element to Like slightly porny sounding music playing in a story where sex frequently isn't happening where it's assumed to be happening. Right. The storytelling itself is the analogue to sex they find out that just they're really in's not like they're in sync physically, but they're in sync like mentally and creatively. Instead of having sex that first night, they go and write a story together. Exactly, that's exactly right. Yeahah. So I guess actually, you know, just slightly porny sounding music isn't entirely inappropriate. In a moment, we'll find out how Mac feels about actors improvising different dialogue than what's in his script. Every once in a while, I hear an improvved line where I'm like, that's left the wording enough that it's actually leaving an important idea behind We'll talk about the truth's use of improvisation after the break And If youd like to support this kind of work You can hear every episode add free at the trruth podcast. supportppingcast. fm Your support directly helps us pay writers, actors, and keep our show alive Lulu Lemmon's new drop of Daily essentials feels like a deep breath of fresh air Breezily is a collection of drapey, pants, shorts, and tanks designed to mix a and match with your wardrobe as the weather warms up It's all made in our lightweight stretchy swift fabric Throw on these everyday staples after practice and bring an airy feel to your daily moves Shop the Breezzly colloection now at Lululeemmon. com Candora jewelry brings the sparkle to your summer Now with even better prices, enjoy up to fifty percent off like styles, from personalized pieces to must have favorites made for the summer Timeless designs that shine with you through every moment. Wherever the summer takes you. shop in store or online. Now through july sixth. Terms and dition apppply. Visit pandora. net for details I'm curious how you feel about the use of improv. I know a lot of playwrights istle at the idea that people are going to change their words because they put a lot of work into their words. Well, I think a big thing that's like relaxed me a lot in life is that For theater and audio, I have my own companies or they're two interrelated companies. So I get to do my own thing exactly the way I want to do it on a regular basis. Because that need is being regularly fed, When I go out and work with other people Um I become excited about, okay, well how do we do with things in your house Yeah o. see I feel the same way about working with writers sort of in that in that I can let them do whatever they want becauseuse I know I'm in control. It's sort of the same thing in reverse, but yeah But I think I think I would find the truth process much harder if that was the only way that my scripts were ever being realized But I've been aware from I mean Uh, um I know I've always known how the truth works If I don't want that process, then then I don't take a job with the truth Um,, you know, they that's like that that's that's that's a that's a sign on the door. Yeah. Then that way I can kind of enjoy the cool things that come out of the improv Um, I can enjoy, um you know, the feel of it, you know, in the in the final cover, I, you know, I can kind of hear how, you know Well I sort of like how natural the actors sound and u Every once in a while, I will say like I mean on our note sessions for this one, and I try to keep it as minimal as possible, but every once in a while, I hear an improv line where I'm like, that's left the wording enough that it's actually leaving an important idea behind. Sure. But like that's a big that's a big part of it though, is that I need the writers to check the improv to make sure it's not undermining the story. you know because because it As you say, in the script, there are certain things that are in the script with a for a good reason And if the actors aren't aware of what that reason is, they might leave it out in their improv or if I'm unaware, I might choose a take that doesn't do that because I think that the actor sounded good on that line. Right. And u That's a big step in the process. I depend on the writers to point out those moments when the the impprov doesn't work. I think on the the full that when you sent me a full bounce of of let's not and say we did, I think I honestly sent back sixix notes. Yeah. they were all great notes. I mean, like the words that the times when you said, o, let's let's use the scripted line here. When I went back and I listed he's totally right. I should use the scripted line there. If I don't, then it's going to screw some things up. Right Beuse the rule I give for myself is never ask for the scripted line to be restored purely for vanity.. Only ask You couldn do that. I just wouldn't do it Right. It's like I know it it's again, it's like this thing' like there's you know the rules before you walk in the house. Yeah. I mean, I mean, for me, like when we do the improv with the actors, it's not really a question of the words being right or wrong. You know, the words or the words tripping up the actor or something like that. I don't think of it like that at all. I don't see that as being the function of the improv Like what why it's important to me is that it gets the actors listening to one another in a different kind of way. It gets their brains working differently If they're improvising, they don't know what the other person's going to say next. and so it forces them to listen to one another. And when I'm editing tape A big part of my process is to listen to every take of a particular line of dialogue next to one another. So I might have like seven or eight takes of a single line of dialogue. And so I'm listening to them in order and you can hear difference when when it's really close together like that You can hear when the actor pops in and they come alive. There's like a life to the performances that only comes about usually while they're improvising for whatever reason And it's in my mind, it's vital to making a connection with the audience that the actors feel engaged with what they're doing in a particular kind of way. They aren't just there to as a vessel for words They' they're there as a character in a situation and they are bouncing off of another character. and that interaction is really what's making these sounds come out of their body And I try to performers into that type of situation as much as possible so that they feel more alive and feel more engaged. And first off, I think think of audio as a performance medium It's not a written medium And and so I mean, we're listening to words, but we're listening to them. interpreted through act the action of speaking them. and how they're spoken conveys even more than what the words convey. I mean, sometimes it can create you know, express volumes more than what the words are saying. And and it's like getting at that point where way that someone says something and great actors can do this with scrich of material, you know, it's absolutely possible. but ust getting the actors to a point where The words feel like something they need to say for some other reason than they're written in a script, you know? And certainly it gives the I mean, like the truth doesn't sound like any other show The truth doesn't sound like any other. scripted fiction bodcast. The sense that I have with several of the other writers A lot of them seem to know people from the improv world. And some people who you know as well. It seems like many of the writers come from that tradition. Yeah. I mean, I remember Probably in two thousand six, I went to my first show at UCB Theater which is an improv theater in New York. And I just I was like, o my God, this is There is a feeling that I ness I found my people. But I found a group of people who I think I might be able to work with It was such a vibrant creative community of people. And ever since I was in graduate school, even, I think before that, I was just very interested in filmmakers who used improv likeike Robert Alman orr John Casseett is or people like this And I thought that I've always been interested in recordings and I thought that recording is an improv feel like they are made for one another because They they they sort of counterbalance each other's weaknesses Prov is very inarticulate But It also has a spark like a life to it that is very difficult to get otherwise. On the other hand, recordings are very static and sort of have like a deadness to them because you can't change them You know, yet they're You can edit them and no one would know you've edited them. can there is an incredibly pliable medium And so I thought, wow, if you took these two things together you could sort of maximize the potential in both of them. Well, I don't know if you intended to do this, but you actually quite elegantly brought the conversation full circle because that image of you going to UCB and kind of immediately having this feeling of recognition is is You really I mean, It it's Jeff and Leslie's story in a way. to like look at another person and see sort of see a soul mate, but not a romantic one, but like a creative soulmate. go. Oh, this is the sandbox I'm meant to be playing in This is my canvas. This is the you know, and that is a big I mean, some that Jeff says and so it may not be in the final cook because I feel the line was improvveded a little bit, but it somethingbody where he says like where he says I'm not in love with Leslie. It's a big feeling, but it's not love So the feeling of finding your creative people is a feeling that very much resembles romantic love, but it's not quite the same thing And you know, I think yeah, I think what you just described a is kind of what this story is about Our next episode is written by Mary McDonald. It's called Do Over. and it's about a woman with severe social anxiety who discovers that an AI therapy tool designed to prepare her for life may be keeping her from living it That's coming next week And as always, if you'd like to listen to our show, add free Go to the trruth podcast d. supportpportingcast. f. It really helps our show. We can't make it without everyone's help The trruth podcastot supportpportingcast. f I'm Jonathan Mitchell, and you have been hearing Truth