Survival Strategies and Pivots

Hello and welcome to Birgeast the Flashh podcast of mid sizize SUV's. I'm your friend, David Peerce, and on today's episode, we're going to talk about Rivian. Rivian is a fascinating company at a fascinating point in its life. It has been around a long time as one of the most interesting and consequential and in some ways successful competitor to Tesla in the EV space But Rivian is also at a point now where if it can't figure out how to start selling mainstream cars at mainstream prices It might look like a very different company soon. Meanwhile, the whole idea of EVs, especially as a political thing, have changed a lot in a couple of years. Tariffs have changed the price of EVs. Some of the Trump administration's policies about energy have changed the price of EV's. Gas prices, believe it or not, have changed the price of EV's. All of this stuff is so tied up together, and Rivian is just about to come out with a car the R two that it is hopeful will be its true mainstream success story. The Virgess Andy Hawkins was actually in Normal, Illinois at one of Rivian's factories a couple of months ago and put together a big story all about everything Rivian is up to and why this moment matters so much. He's going to come on the show and we're going to try to figure out whether Rivian is really going to make it But first, here's a look at everything else happening on the erge today This is ninety seconds on the verge for Wednesday, july first, twenty twenty six. The age of the physical video game appears to be almost over Sony announced today that starting in January of twenty twenty eight, it will no longer produce physical PlayStation discs at all. Sony's argument is that that's because most game buying has shifted to digital anyway, which is certainly true No discs means you can't resell games. It means you can't share them with friends, and it means you can't even really preserve them over time. It also just gives Sony more control over its games. Sony's announcement here is obviously the big deal, but this trend has been happening for a while Just last week we learned that Grand Theft Auto six will have a physical edition, which is actually just a download code in a box. There's probably a middle ground here that is something like Nintendo's virtual game cards that attach the digital game to a more generic physical object Personally, I totally get this trend and I really hate it. And I suspect there are more weird bad ideas to come. Meanwhile, Meta is starting to paywall its smart glasses. Starting now, you will need a twenty dollarars monthly Meta onene premium subscription, which is a real thing that exists if you want to use more than a few hours of a feature called conversation focus A bigger bummer here is that Meta is also making clear that there are more premium features to come Actually, I expect a lot of the AI in your AI glasses to eventually come at an additional price. Everywhere you look right now, there are stories about AI companies running out of compute or having to throttle users or raise prices Frankly, we've had it good with AI and the price is about to go way up And finally, the Vir' Gen Tui published a review of the Google Home spepeaker, which is Google's latest attempt to bring its AI assistant into your house Long story short is a good speaker, actually a surprisingly good speaker for such a little guy But the AI is too slow and sometimes frankly, just too stupid. I do still love the red one You can read more about all of this at the Vverge. com. That is ninety seconds on the Verge for Wednesday, July first I'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now. but home projects, I second guess everything. Is that noise normal? Is that water damage? And who should I even call That's where Thumbtack comes in. Uload a photo or voice notote, and their AI powered search helps diagnose the issue and match you with the right top rated local pro. Instead of second guessing or searching for hours, you get clarity and can hire the right pro with confidence. For your next home project, try Thumbtack. They know homes Hred the R Pro today Trying to locate new sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle and a haystack That's why the Guardian is launching stateside with Ky Wright and Carter Sherman conversation with experts who slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's actually happening in the world Three times a week Posts Sky and Carter utilize all the reporting resources the Guardian has discuss the news, international affairs, climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness And the Guardian is not billionaire owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to the guuardian. com slash stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube Theguardian d. com slash stateside All right now, let's talk cars. Andy Hawkins, the Virgus transportation editor is here. Hi, Andy. Hi I am going to fight my instincts to talk about the bike bus because I'm desperate to talk about the bike bus. Wrapping up another great year of the bike bus. I'm glad to hear it. Yeah. But today we're here to talk about Rivian. And I want to start with a trip you took a couple of months ago to Rivian's Factory a few days after Rivian's factory was hit by a tornado. Yes Tell me justust tell me about that day. What was the scene like? Is that the scene for people today? Sure. Yeah, it was first of all, it was not planned. Obviously, I did not anticipate there being a tornado that hit the factory book that three months ahead. Did't know wasn't on the schedule. But yeah, four days before I was I was planning on flying out to the factory. I had arranged with Rivian to go out see the R two come off the assembly line and interview a number of their executives, a tornado did indeed hit the factory. It took a sizable chunk out of part of the complex that is actually specifically involved in producing the new R two vehicle, this very crucial make or brake vehicle for Rivian. There's like a wall that's missing, there's a huge hole in the ceiling They had a lot of flooding, there was a lot of damage But from what I was able to see, they were they were cleaning it up. thingsings were still moving. They had this event to commemorate the R two coming off the assembly line. And there was a lot of talk Aongst the workers and amongst the executives there about sort of resilience and sort of in the face of adversity coming together and tackling this challenge. and you can tell that, you know, it wasn't just the tornado they were talking about. there were obviously a lot of other things that they were referring to with some of that language as well Yeah, there's a certain B push and pull between in your telling of this that is like Rivian has gone through this hard time and you happen to be there at this moment of like, we're going to make it through sort of a raw ra moment for everyone at Rivian. We've been through this trauma together. We're going to come back stronger but also sort of a real moment of I don't want to call it desperation, but I almost want to call it desperation of like this is the car We need to work. Like I I want to spend a bunch of time on the R two because I think to me this the story of Rivian and the story of In some ways, this era of EVs is kind of about the R two it did it did you get that sense of like, oh my God, we need this car to work so, so, so badly, even in the room on that day? Yeah, it absolutely was. I mean, there was obviously a lot of you know, it was sort of through the lens of this is a great car, right? Obviously everyone there has drink the Kool A. They firmly believe in the R two as the vehicle that will sort sort of get them to catapult to that next level of success as an EV company And that was very much the message that was coming down from the top that they had sort of come together. They had tackled this challenge. They had made this car. It's going to be a huge success And Rivian's future is nothing but bright. But no, yeah, you could obviously sort of under the current of all of that is there is a very much a recognition of the enormous challenge that's still remains that the current climate around EV's is extremely bad. you know, the sales have essentially stagnated. Rivian does not expect to sell any more R one vehicles than they did last year. Like that's that's not a segment that they see is growing. They see all the growth basically in this new vehicle, but that's going to obviously rely on their ability to Successfully produce the vehicle in enough time to deliver it to customers and getting those cars to customers, getting making sure that those customers are not experiencing any delays. There are one the very first vehicle, the truck and the SUV was very delayed when it first came out about five years ago and they're trying to avoid some of the similar delays while also dealing with some of these more macro concerns that they have that are sort of looming over them Um, like you like a tornado, you could say. R Yeah, I'm struck by How little has changed since you came on this show a little over two years ago And we talked about Rivian. And this was right after the launch of the R two and the R three, the first time they showed them off. They were super exciting. People immediately grocked this as like, oh, this is Rivian's turn toward the mainstream. This makes total sense. The sort of immediate response was hugely positive But even then You came on the show and we're like, there is absolutely no guarantee that any of this is going to work for Rivian. Rivian is going to have to endure enormous costs to make this happen. scaling production is incredibly hard. The wins against EV's in the sort of political space were blowing. even then, has the situation changed for Rivian in those two years Like have the headwinds gotten stronger or less strong for sort of Rivian as a company in the two years since that carvent Yeah, I think you could you could arguably say that they have gotten more strong. you know, the last two years alone, since Trump has come into office, you know, the regulatory environment has gotten very dire around EVs. He got rid of the tax credit He got rid of basically any emissions regulations at all, which was very beneficial for PureEV companies like Tesla and Ribian because they used to be able to sell these regulatory credits. and that was like hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue every quarter that they could rely on. That's gone. Sales are obviously stagnated without the tax credit in place People you know I think there's still a demand out there. People still want good EV's. They like EV's. they're interested in them, but the cost is still extremely high for most people. The cost in general for all cars across the board is high. It's over fifty thousand dollars on average. So people are absolutely feeling the pinch, but at the same time gas prices rising because of the war with Iran. and people are certainly sort of trying to overcome some of their skepticism and their concerns about those costs to look at EVs because there is this sort of this broader issue with rising gas prices. So there's just all this in the mix right now around Ribian. And I do think that despite these headwinds, the company is sort of projecting that this is going to be modestly successful vehicle. Maybe it won't be, you know, the Model Y necessarily. And I think that there is some question. Do this need to be like on the level of the Model Y? Does the R two need to rise to that level and be that successful? I mean, the Model Y, you know, is the best selling car in the world, you know, and has been for several years in a row. and that is despite, you know, Tesla's own sales dropping on a year by year basis. So it's there's there's just a lot to take in at the moment. I think Rivian is hoping for obviously great success with the R two. and I think that they've got Production and the manufacturing sort of squared away. I don't think they're going to run into barring you any more last minute tornadoes. They're not going to run into any of the problems that you like Elon Musk and Tesla ran into with production hell and the Model three. But somewhere as you're saying this R.J. Garns, the CEO of Rivian is like knocking on every piece of wood you can find as they're saying this out loud right now But I do think I think the major question is going to be, are the customers going to be there? Is the demand going to be there? Is this car going to be a hit in the same way that the Model three was for Tesla? I think that we won't know that necessarily. We'll have a better sense, I think by the end of the year once we start to see some of the sales numbers h You know, Rivian is banking on the R two being, you know, one of the most successful and the fastest new EV launches in history. They're projecting between twenty and twenty five thousandars delivered to customers this year alone. We're talking just the second half of this year. That would be an enormous enormous figure if they're able to achieve that. you know, they they you know, that would essentially double their customer deliveries in a year. So that would be a huge success for them if they're able to achieve that. But you know, we're going to have to wait and see Well, so I want your read on it as somebody who has now seen the car in person. One of our writers has driven the car. I think we know a lot more about what this car actually is in the real world in all of these contexts you're describing. What do you make of the R two so far? Obviously Like you said, there there are a lot of things left to come. But I think we have some real information about whether this car is any good that we didn't not very long ago What's your current temperature on the R two itself It seems like it's a big win. I have not personally driven it yet. I just want to sort of clarify that at first. but didid you take a selfie next to it? That's like half of that. I basically I basically did. I've gotten to sit inside it and check it out and sort of get the feel of it. And it is a really, I mean, it's, you know, it's everything about the R one T and the R one S that so many people were drawn to and liked about the company, right? It's the attention to detail the design, obviously the software and the ability to have all of these like this tech just work seamlessly in many ways. You can tell the difference between these vehicles that were designed from the ground up to be all electric versus some of the more retrofitted cars that we've seen and trucks that we've seen over the last know, half a decade or so that have been less successful, things like the Ford F one hundred fifty lightightning and you know, some of the cars that you know, that GM was was putting out. I do think that there is a lot that is attractive and winning about this car. and you can see why so many people are cheering for Rivian and like the company. They like what sort of the brand represents this sort of outdoor adventure, you know, in touch with nature kind of vibe that they've been putting out. That is certainly carried forward with the R two. I mean, it is in many ways, it is an R one S in miniature, right? It looks very similar. They are not You know, sort of like cracking open a whole new design language or anything like that. This is not the a Ferrari Lucee moment, right where people are rejecting this is not looking nothing like a Rivian. It obviously looks very much like a Rivian. And I do think people are obviously very excited about the R three, which is still, you know, sort of like a question mark in the future. But this is, I think it's, you know One of the major things that they had as an obstacle was the cost, right? The R one was too expensive for most people. It started at around seventy thousand dollars, but could easily be optioned up to about ninety thousand over one hundred thousand dollars. That was just something that was never going to have as big of a fan base as you would like. So this is Rivian's obviously big play to expand that fan base, get more people into into the brand into experiencing Rivian. And, you know, I do think There will still there's still going to be some challenges, right? It's still not as cheap as I think a lot of people would like. The first starts like right under fifty grand, right? The first versions are over fifty grand are going to be in the fifty seven to fifty eight thousand dollars range because we're talking the sort of premium performance versions. This is like a well worn tactic in the auto industry, right to put out your more expensive versions first And then gradually work your way down to like the cheaper base model version. That version, the one that starts under fifty thousand dollars, is not going to be available until late next year. So people who are still waiting for that version, and Rivian claims this is not a decontented, you know sort of base model. This is not the slate auto truck or anything like that has power windows, has paints, has pain has a radio. But there is only one paint color actually for the base model But that one's not going to be available to the end of next year. And then after that, you know, Rivian has said that they're going to make the R three, which is going to be even cheaper than the R two. So that will be a major moment for them if they can actually get to the point where that vehicle becomes available and we'll see if that demand is truly there. Fourth of July savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at three hundred and ninety eight dollars Plus, get free delivery on appliance purches of three hundred and ninety eight dollars or more, no membership required Upgrade your kitchen with a modern and sleek GE profile refrigerator featuring hands free autofill for the perfect pour every time. And make laundry day easier with two in one washer dryer combo innovation that completes laundry in about ninety minutes Shop top brand appliances now at the Home Depot. offer about june seventeenth to Julyet ath ULC Store online for details One. 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This is the downside The average American spends seventeen hundred dollars hundred a year on clothes and a lot of us are spending way more than that But this week on Networth and Chill, I'm breaking down exactly how to stop overpaying for your wardrobe without sacrificing your style. becausecause between the tracking pixels following you around the internet, the FOMo drops, and the influencer hauls, someone is always trying to get your money I'm sharing my best kept secrets for scoring designer pieces for less, why secondhand shopping is having its biggest moment ever, and the one rule I use before buying anything new. Plus, I'm answering your questions including how to dress well when you have zero dollars to spend, how to upgrade your wardrobe for as little as possible, and what signs actually give away that someone is truly wealthy Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. com slash your rich VFF I'm Seth Matlins. My new show, Creator Destroy Reimagining Marketing explores how every decision a company makes, not just the marketing ones, but the HR, IR, pricing or design and planning ones ones most don't consider marketing at all contribute to either creating value or destroying Each week I sit down with CMOs, CEOs, founders, cultural thinkers, the people building, breaking and reimagining how businesses grow or don't for conversations about what creates value and what destroys it It's a business show, it's a marketing show. Creator destroys the show that argues, they've always been the same thing Fox Media Podcast Network and the Wisdom is com New episodes drop weekly on YouTube and your favorite podcast app What's your sense of how much price is guiding the whole EV market right now? Because I'm forever torn between this idea of Clearly, there were a lot of people with a lot of money with appetite to buy EV's. To some extent, the market feels a little bit to me like Peloton where all of those people already bought them, Right? And it's like everybody' like, oh, this will scale forever. And then it's like, no, the number of people who want an EV and have one hundred thousand dollars. already bought their car U and some of them bought ivianss, like us Ran, but Now now there's this bet that okay, we can we can bring it down in the market a little bit and find a whole giant new group of people. But then I look at something like the Nissan Leaf and some of these other relatively, I say relatively less expensive EVs that have just not worked. And like I wonder if your Rivian is the only positive case of if we make the thing cheaper, more, people will buy it Tesla And if so, is it possible that Tesla is just a weird, unique company that came at a weird, unique time that is actually not a model to follow in any possible way? Like again, back to my original question, like how much do you think price is the game in EVs right now I think it's a major, major part of it. I think that For a long time, it was range and it was charging, right? Those were the main concerns from people that were reluctant to maybe take the plunge into electrification. And they were worried about how far they would be able to drive on a charge, where they would be able to charge and whether or not the public infrastructure was keeping up I think since then, even despite like Trump throwing up a lot of obstacles, the charging has improved dramatically. There are more charging stations. They tend to work more than they don't. That's still sort of a challenge they w they that most of the pumps work. I know that you need to have, you know, an actual the electrons need to flow And the software needs to work. And I do think it's getting a lot better. this is from personal experience. I own an EV. I'm out there driving. Ive I'm having a lot easier time charging at public stations than I have in the past. And this is also backed up by the data as well. So ye, that's huge. I do think that now the concerns are certainly around price and this has lar lots to do with The rising prices across the auto industry, cars have gotten more luxurious, they have gotten more expensive. peoplee want more of these features than a lot of them can afford. And we're starting to see they're starting to buy vehicles that they really can't afford to begin with, right? People are taking out longer and longer car loans that are more and more expensive. These predatory loans are becoming a really big problem for people in the auto market And I think we're also seeing in the used car space, prices increasing dramatically. And that's also having an effect too, right? So usually if you were price sensitive, you would just buy something to use. Now those used cars are also going up at a pretty high rate. So I do think that overall, people are feeling extremely pinched We live in a country where if you don't own a car, it's very hard to have a job and to have a life. know public transportation is lacking in so many places. And so it is something that it's the largest purchase that a lot of people will make and still make. And so I do think that the bet on affordability, which is what Rivian is doing, but is also what some of these legacy automakers are doing as well, right? This is sort of at the crux of what Ford is trying to do with this new universal EV platform that they're building O in California trying to find a way to make things more aerodynamic, reduce the cost of the battery, slim things down, make things a lot more affordable, but also it has to be profitable for the company. And this is something when you come back to Rivian, they've never had you they've had a few moments of gross profitability, but they have not been overall on a yearly basis been profitable They still lose thousands of dollars on every R one vehicle that they sell. This is going to be their big play make to bring those costs more in line so that they can get out of the valley of death, as it's called and into a more stable position. They have these partnerships with Volkswagen and Uber, these major investments that have provided them with some lift over the years. But I do think that if the R two is not successful, especially not as a profitable vehicle, then the company is going to be in vict Yeah, you made a case in a piece you wrote for the Virge that there's a world in which Rivian's future looks more like software company than car company if the R two doesn't go well. Uh, how how does that play out Yeah, so a couple of years ago, they made this deal with Volkswagen that would eventually net them about five point eight billion dollars in investment. that was basically made software Rivian the software provider for all of the Volkswagen group electric vehicles and gas vehicles going forward. So this is a project. they created this joint venture project Rivian's head of software wasen by Ben Said is the head of this JV along with he has a counterpart at Volkswagen. and they're basically designing, they're taking sort of you know, Rivian's software platform and Us that as sort of like the foundation to create a software experience for all of Volkswagen's vehicles. Lamborghini, Audi, the VW brand itself. Is this good software news, by the way? Like people generally like Rivian software, right? It's, you know, if you were like GM's doing its weird Android thing in every car everywhere, I would be in like a full blown panic attack right now. But people like Rivian stuff There's a lot to like about Rivian's software. That said, there have been some noticeable glitches and problems over the years as every car company has had. I don't think that they've been immune from some of those problems. And Rivian's are one vehicles. while they rate very high on the scale of customer satisfaction They also rate at the bottom for reliability. Interesting. And a lot of that has to do with some of the tech problems that they had over the years. Rivian claims that they're aware of this, know that they're very much working to fix any problems and bugs that come up that they are creating what is essentially a software defined vehicle, a vehicle that can be updated and fixed over the air Cstantly much in the way that Tesla does and much in the way that, you know everyone's phone does, right? That this is going to be something that if there do end up being problems that they can fix them remotely and fix them quickly The R two is on a brand new platform. We have yet to see any Volkswagen vehicles yet with the Rivian software. so that still remains to be seen. But it's going to be, you know, I do think that like if the R two is not As much of a hit and Rivian continues to sort of struggle as a manufacturer, as an OEM, they could potentially have a future in the software space. And also there's the autonomy piece on top of all of that as well, the Robotaxis. Yeah, there's a really interesting piece of it with the Rbot taxis and the autonomy thing because when you were talking to the folks there I seem very excited about autonomy all of a sudden they' all in on robo taxis. and then you sort of peel it back a little bit and it's like, oh, it's because Uber gave you a lot of money based on the premise that you're going to be able to give them Robbo taxis. And I think there is this fascinating through line of Rivian where it has made a bunch of decisions just in order to survive, right? Like Amazon says, we want delivery vans Rivian says, tight, we'll give you deli events. And VW's like we software. Rivian's like tight,'ll give you software. And Uber is like well we want rbot taxis and Rivian's like tight, We'll give you rbo taxis. Like at some point this just comes back to like maybe this is why the R two is the thing. L either this company can make it as a car company or it can't. And I just sort of wonder like Has this company just spent most of its life sort of chasing the ability to continue to exist the expense of being able to like make and sell cars. It's like and again, I feel it' important to say that like this seems to just be the life of any automaker, right? Like people forget now, but Tesla went through a version of this, like Elon Musk gl loves to talk about how many times Tesla almost went out of business before getting some kind of investment. Like it is very hard and very expensive to make cars, particularly in America. So I don't think this is unique to Rivian. But I am just struck by it really seems like this company is just flailing around trying to keep existing. And if maybe this new focus on autonomy is just that Is that am I being too cynical here? I don't think so, but at the same time, I do think that there is an element of it that is working for Rivian, right? They have made it this far and the brand does have a a lot of fans and success and there's a lot of excitement around the R too. So I do think that that needs to sort of be Uh, you know, we didn need to have that qualification. U that if this is what you need to do to make it as a brand new car brand in America, of which there have been very few, right? Like beyond like the last, you know, the legacy autoakers Pretty much Tesla is the only one that has succeeded in launching a brand new car brand that has volume and scale and profitability. All There's been dozens of other attempts, and for the most part, they have all miserably failed, especially in the EV space, right? the road to the EV future is lined with the corpses of all of these dead companies. It's lined with Fisker Oceans.. Fisker Oceans. which you could still hail as an Uber in downtown Manhattan anytime you want That's going be, you know, sort of the legacy of that company, or or like these zombie companies like Farity Future and others that somehow still are kind of like trucking along despite not having any products to speak of that they are selling. So it is a you know, I think Rivian has you know like RJ is a very smart person. He got his, you know doctorate at MIT. It's not no dummy And he seems like this has been something that he has been working on his entire life, right? As I was reporting this story, I dug in really into into his history in the history of Rivian, how he got started first as mainstream motors in small town in Florida on the coast. You know, The idea was that they were going to take a mini Cooper and rebody it as a sports car that eventually they decided maybe they'll make dune buuggies because they got all this investment money from Saudi Arabia And then they, you know decided they landed on an electric truck as being the thing that the market was missing, right? And that they could that was going to be something that they could they could offer. So I do think that there has been sort of like this track record and this history of some of these radical pivots, right that they're going to do this. And then they decided to pivot and do this. And we're seeing that still. that is still as the company matures and now they've sort of reached this next level They're still doing these pivots, right? software, autonomy, robot taxis., but they arere still kind of keeping their core principles, right? They believe strongly in vertical integration, that they need to make all of their own stuff so that they can be more insulated from some of these market fluctuations and supply chain KS that we're seeing across the board. and they need to obviously be sort of protected from the futures of know, WMo and autonomy and everything that people are predicting about how that's going to change how our relationship with the car and transportation. So I do think they made the right bets and the right choices. That doesn't make them any less risky. and doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to succeed But I do think that they are thinking very, very, very deeply about this stuff. Yeah, you can see a lot of Rivian bets as like, if we And if we are actually able to execute on this whole plan It's going to work and it's going to set us up in unbelievable strength position for success, right? That like all of the vertical integration you're talking about, like if this works, which is the biggest if you can possibly imagine, Rivian is going to be a very powerful, very independent, very successful operation. It's just the getting there that is forever the hard part. One last thing on the autonomy front to what extent does betting on these sort of you know, Rbot taxi future of everything still feel to you like a futuristic idea about what might happen versus like a real growing car market today I was really surprised when Rivian came out late last year and said that they were going to be designing their own AI chips and that they were going to be building self driving cars and that the R two was going to eventually come out with LDAar, for example, and have these growing capabilities, right hands free, eyes off and then eventually like a full level four technology. I always assumed obviously Tesla has sort of you know been the most prominent example, but that Rivian is like more of like a sububaru range Rvie type brand of venture and off roading. why would who wants that, right? Who wants to go off roading in their autonomous Rivian? I'm not I'm still not sure if there is a market for that, But that said, I think that there is a recognition that this industry is moving rapidly, that Wayo is really changing The calculation that a lot of these companies are making for their long term success and future and how they are approaching this technology, and you're seeing it across the board, right? Like every company now, F from Ford to BMW to Mercedes, they're all saying that eventually they're also going to have some sort of L three and L four capabilities at some point in the future. Maybe it won't be Rbotaxis. And I think that that's sort of like the interesting aspect of this bet by Rivian you know, they had to do that, right? If they were going to get this cash from Uber, they were going to have to, you know, sort of like make that stake out that position as well. You know, I think it's still extremely early, right? We're still we're talking only like eleven cities in the US have Wimo Robot taxis right now. Those Rbot taxis are still seemingly running into a lot of problems around thingsings like red lights and flooded roads and school buses. and this is not a perfect technology by far, but there also is a lot of data that seems to suggest that it is exponentially safer. than human driving, and that does have obviously huge implications for the future of driving, for traffic safety and all of that. So I think it was an interesting, surprising position for Ribian. And again, this company has never demonstrated an autonomous vehicle at all And our our tester got to try out the R two's Universal Hands free. This is basically like a full self driving kind of like aspect or a supercruise from GM. and he was not that impressed. He's like they had some positive things to it, but it also like tried to blow through a couple stop signs and Rivian said that they're going to have to push out a software update pretty soon. Yeah It's good call, Rivian. Yeah. suuper good call on that one. I'm not sure exactly Rivian is prepared for the how should I say it? likeike the legal quagmer that is, you know, sort of like personally owned autonomous vehicles at the moment and whether they're going to be willing to take responsibility for things when an if, you know, it goes it goes wrong. That's going to be, you know, something that they're going to have to think really deeply about. I'm sure they are, their lawyers. I'm sure are on it right now. And I do think it's going to be somethinghing that I don't think will necessarily define the brand going forward, but it will become something that potentially could be sort of like you know an added bonus, essentially. If Rivian is able to sort of figure this out.