Working on the X-Men Movie

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Formulated without sulfates or fragrance, CeraVee Hair Care is suitable for sensitive scalps and all hair types, curl patterns, and color-treated hair. Visit CeraVee.com/slash hair care to learn more. Available online and in store at retailers nationwide . Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor of the ringer.com and joining me in the studio, a man who funnily enough moonlights is a little John impersonator who does James Brown songs. It's really true. At weddings. It's Andy Greenwald. Oh, you got quiet. Well, I that was a mouthful. Andy and You handled it well. I thought you were gonna do a little John voice. It's great to see you, man. We're talking about Euphoria episode three today. We're also talking about beef season two again because we have Sonny Lee coming in to talk to us about the show that he created and the second season and a little bit about X-Men. What he's also co-writing and we're very excited to hear about that. First, let me just say the watch at Spotify.com. Feel free to continue to send us ask us anything emails. Yeah or emails that are more pertinent to this this podcast. This podcast. The watch pod underscore at Instagram. You can watch us on ringer- tv on YouTube and you can watch us on Spotify uh where you can also listen to us as well as many other platforms that carry this podcast. H BC, Helena Baum Carter, leaves the White Lotus. Disappointing. By mutual consent. Sounds like mutual consent, mutual decision? It sounds like it wasn't working. Yes. Which has happened before on this show, I believe. And that Mike White has an exacting vision for how he wants these parts to be played and how he wants these parts to be, and that she was no longer the right fit. So we don't know if it was a performance thing or if it was a reconsideration of the whole character. I doubt it was like, oh, it turns out Helena Bonham Carter can't read. You know what I mean? I'm sure she's like an accomplished actress for three, four decades at this point. I think it's I like the way you said I'm sure she's an accomplished actress. Like, I don't know. I never saww Room of the Vie. The only thing I was gonna say is this is the downside to the the fantasy casting league that is that kind of operates around White Lotus is there's so much attention paid to it that I can imagine like pretty big shows getting away with like we tried this, it didn't work out, like it's kind of swept under the rug. Constantly. And that's better for everyone. Yeah. But this was like HBO released a statement, you know? Um I think it's like we've talked before about how sometimes it'll be like so-and-so has joined the cast of this justified spinoff. And I'm like, this is this is bin shot. That's often the case. Yeah. But this is more like, you know, we're there's speculation, there's rumors, there's who would you like to see at the White Lotus next season? And live by the sword, die by the sword, I guess. Eric Stoltz still answers questions about the two weeks he spent filming as Marty McFly. That's just from you though. You emailing him, ask him anything questions. The restraining orders language was vague . So DMs uh are fine as far as I can tell. More HBO news uh to hit, which is the hot D season three teaser dropped. And as Kai rightly pointed out, we're losing touch with the old ways. A teaser should not be three minutes long. Yeah, this is a trailer. Yes. W I believe it's called the teaser on YouTube though, correct? Yeah. But like what are they gonna say in the trailer that like some of these dragons? No, it's supposed to be fifty-seven seconds and it's supposed to be like like rhythmic and just like pictures of the drag ons and shit. It's not supposed to be like a big fight would happen. Just picture you just kinda vibing out. Like Mikata. The image of a dragon. The image of another dragon. We should do it. We should do our own teaser that's cut to McConaughey's you know beating the chest song. Don't threaten Kai with a good time. He's already Googling it. Wanna go viral? Yes. Follow me, brother. I am excited because I feel like they have no more room to uh delay and must get to the fighting on this show. Um and you know, James Norton being added to the cast is exciting. I'm a big fan of his. Yeah, you've been supporting him for a lot of mafia for life. Uh what about you? What you you you're feeling a little bit more upbeat about how says that? Yeah, uh I mean I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, this looks cool and propulsive and like we're finally getting the action scenes that we were promised and that the story is going to get on with it and really have some consequences and teeth. On the other hand, I kinda wanna know what that wormwood tree is thinking. You know what I mean? Wormwood, weirwood, what is it? I don't remember anymore. Yeah. It's like that tree spent a season having Matt Smith talk to it. And I kind of want to know what the tree's whole thing is. Like one episode, like bottle episode of interiority. Of like Dr. Melfi of House of the Dragon. Yeah, and then we get to see the tree go home and talk to another tree played by Peter Bogdanovich, but like you know, done tastefully with AI. Yeah. This is why they can't handle me in that room. I was I was across the studio a lot from the show, and again, Eric Stoltz's lawyers arrived and were like, you're also not allowed out. Were you outside of the House of the Dragon lot with the boombox? Justice for the tree. Yeah, I'm excited. Uh I this is funnily enough, the show that I chose to spoil for myself. So I extensively read about this era in Targaryen history. Extensively read. On on Wikipedia. Yeah. I didn't get because I knew that this one did not have that classic George prose. You know, it was more of a just picture it looks the way like my old New York therapist sat in an Eames chair and would have a thousand page book about the ninety seventh Congress and be like, aha. Well, this is when lawmaking really changed. That's you with this. But I am excited to see how they execute it. That's exciting. I'm curious to see whether or not there is any relationship creatively. I doubt it because I think that these were being shot relatively parallel to one another. Um between seven kingdoms lessons learned. Being like, oh, we can't we can have a little bit of a laugh here and there. I bet no. I bet a hard no. But I the best case scenario for this, I think, is that they we thought that coming out of the original Game of Thrones series that that the the the sort of slower pace and the more thoughtful approach that HBO was taking towards spin-offs was going to equate with entertainment that was like just knew what it was doing. Act like you've been here before. And I think that the House of Dragon Genesis was a little bit bumpier and it wasn't a one-to-one translation. Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is so specific and came out of the gate pretty much perfect. Fully formed. Fully formed. I think it took House of the Dragon time to get its bearings and and then there were uh you know exterior circumstances that delayed it and the COVID and all of that stuff and then the production delays, et cetera, et cetera . All this is to say, the best case version of it is them saying, We have our cute funny show, we have our hellfire war show, and we'll take it from there. The only other thing news wise that I wanted to mention was a trailer that dropped today, I believe, for the for all man kind spin-off show Star City. I want to preface this by saying I spoiled this one in that I have very I've read very deeply on alternate histories of the space program in which Russia won. Uh I think that if you had asked me forty eight hours ago what my interest level in another take, but also an alternative read on history would be from the for all mankind worlds. I would be like, I'm good. I watched two seasons, maybe two and change of for all mankind. I think if I had like to summarize like my my exit strategy from that show. It was just I just felt like it became very literal for me. You know what I mean? Like I didn't I wasn't being really like energized by either the writing or the direction. And so it's almost a show that I feel like if you I I wouldn't go so far as to say you could just read the recaps and and get it. But I I would say just like the experiment kind of wore wore off for me. Uh I am so excited for this after watching this trailer. And that has not happened in a long time with a trailer for a television show where they essentially were like, you know what's good? Chernobyl. Well, the television show. The television show. We are at the fortieth anniversary of the event. This is uh starting in 1969, the space race, but this alternative space race of the for all mankind timeline, told from the Russian, the Soviet perspective, in the style of Chernobyl , which means all the Russians are English people. Or you know, the the greater English area. Speaking English or fluent Russian? No, speaking English. And it's a Reefifans. Re-SyFans plays uh seemingly the main scientist, and uh it very, very, very much feels like it is a show that was like Chernobyl really worked again. The show and we want to in retrospect you,'re right. Right. And we want to continue that vibe a little bit. Now I'm I'm sure there are other influences because like uh it also feels a little uh Thomas Alfredson's adaptation of Tinker Tayl and has some kind of tactile espionage to it. I'm very, very, very excited for this. I mean, the the affection for Chernobyl extended to them saying that guy who plays the firefighter, um, Adam Nicaitis, let's get him and as a cosmonaut. So it's visually, I mean you're recognizing people from Chernobyl when you watch this. I was also very struck by the complete aesthetic commitment to the bit by the trailer. It is right up our alley, if it is Cold War espionage and then maybe also space. That's pretty cool. I was impressed by the specificity of vision because telling any streamer that we're gonna do a spin-off of your not flagship show and not even like attention grabbing number one hit show, but a respected performer for you. But this spin-off is going to be by definition and by way the sam.e though those guys were on the In less flashy, is remarkable. Um so I I respect that and I appreciate it. I will check it out. I'm big Anna Maxwell Martin fan. She was in uh line of duty and the Sharon uh Horgan show Motherland . Uh she's fantastic in Motherland. she plays sort of like the head secur head of security at this Star City base. So I'm I'm looking forward to that. I would say the thing with For All Mankind, I'm trying to think if there's something I would put in its place, but I don't think I would. That's probably the number one show for me that I wish I could have found my way into because I think the creativity behind it and the way that it develops season to season from like one sliding doors moment of history and then just playing out that history is so imaginative and cool sounding. And I I think I finished the first season and made it a little bit into the second and the execution of it, and maybe it's changed or you know, as it's continued to grow, I found it I found it a hard show to watch. The episodes were fifty nine, sixty one minutes, sixty three minutes, and it maybe that's what you were talking about with the literalism. Like it just Yeah. That's I think that's that's basically a slog, honestly, especially knowing that I was so behind. And this is before you know the the Euphoria rule went into effect where we actually don't have to watch all the shows you could jump right into the the last few episodes. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for. That's when Prime's same day delivery as you're back. Getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com/slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas. Terms apply. Let's talk about Euphoria. All right. Um, because we have a lovely chat with Sonny coming up. Obviously, spoilers for last night's episode of Euphoria. Uh I didn't think that we were gonna get um wedding so soon. I thought that we would maybe get more intercast interactions. So uh uh I don't believe we actually got Rue Zendaya Sydney Sweeney two-shot ever? With with Jules and Maddie, who she whom she was sitting with, but she attended the wedding of Nate and Cassie and did not share the screen with either of them. Didn't seem like it. Uh and I thought that this one was yet another shift stylistically, subtly. Uh a lot of the Nate and Cassie stuff bordered on Ariaster to me in a very cool way. But a little birdie on my shoulder tells me that maybe the joke's not so funny. Is the birdie still on your shoulder or you should check. Go ahead and sing. You want me to sing? Yeah. Uh I because I like the episode, but I have a feeling maybe perhaps did not. I did not like this episode. I found it unpleasant to sit through. And I wonder, in the spirit of generosity, and in the spirit of celebrating a beautiful union between deserving, loving souls, I should probably ask you some questions and seed the floor to a degree. And also maybe because this is where like my my loc I my lockbox of euphoria memories may be a little out of d reach for me because there's some characters like in the interactions between them where I was like and that I feel like that I remember this but go ahead. I also think at some point we should bring in Kaya just because it's been a long time since I've planned a wedding, and I wonder if there were any like, you know, tips, tips and tricks that you picked up while watching this. I okay, I thought like the most success to my mind, the most successful scene of the episode was the scene between Eric Dane's cow character and Jules at the bar at the wedding. My enjoyment of that scene was foreshortened by the fact that I know nothing of their shared history. That was clear. I enjoyed the scene because it carried a sense of history and gravity between characters that is the hallmark of continuing television dramatic series. Um and I thought, again, we talked about this last week that Eric Dane's performance, most likely his final performance, I thought they treated it all with a great deal of respect by making him just be drunk and not addressing the fact that his his his voice was affected by ALS, etcetera, et cetera. So I thought that was a strong and interesting scene. So I'm bringing that up first because my engagement with that scene was severely limited by not knowing anything about the history. And I wonder how much of that you could just extrapolate to the episode as a whole. Because so much of the wedding, to my mind, either it stands on its own, which I don't think that it did , then does it stand on its own as a culmin ation of two plus years of these characters interacting? And I don't know if it did, primarily because the main character of the show didn't even talk to the people whose wedding she was attending. Yeah, it was a weird one. I so I could go through the various like when the woman BB shows up, she was you know in an earlier iteration of the show. Um you know obviously Maddie used to date Nate. Cassie essentially steals Nate from her. Right. There's a whole thing over the first two seasons of these uh videos of Jules and Cal together that Cal had taken for obviously his own pleasure, but for like become like an element of black male out there. Uh, and Nate's involvement with that whole scenario is I don't know if it's if it's ambiguous, but it it is like that scene between Nate and Jules and and between a Lordy and Hunter Schaefer, I thought was quite good. I don't even know entirely what Nate was trying to communicate there, where it was like you love who you love kind of thing. Um, and what his feelings really are for jewels at at the end of the day. Regardless of that, I it it seemed like if if you were doing the um parasocial like I'm speculating about like who was on set for what days kind of thing, this is the kind of thing that like me is why I can't watch the morning show anymore sometimes, because it's like I can't watch people do one like like clearly not be in the same room together when they're shooting a scene or filmmaking that is chosen to create that illusion for whatever reason. Um so yeah, it did really feel like Zendaya did a day of shooting there. But then like they were like, now let's put her back in the Alamo Lori . Which remains the much more compelling, much more um electric storyline of the show. I think that the uh the argument the show has been making for style over substance, which again, that's how I'm choosing to engage with it. There may be more substance awaiting me if I had watched the the previous season, which I did not. So I think that that gamb it works more successfully when the characters had been siloed into their particular aesthetic genre pieces. So Cassie and Nate making each other crazy inside of this scarface yellow suburban nightmare world. Um that kind of that kind of work for me. The wedding felt like a set piece in search of a a reason to exist. All of the and maybe so again, maybe aesthetically, this is you tell me. Is this what euphoria has always been? Because it seemed like a chance for all of the mem cast members to dress in wild ways that maybe communicated some interior interiority through their clothing and how they chose to approach things. So I picked up on the Maddie relationship with Nate because of the way it kept cutting to her eyes as this was going on. But I did not in the course of the celebration feel much any ki f feel really any kind of character grounding to have empathy for them while it was taking place. It was like, here's an opportunity to maybe let Cassie experience a swing of emotions, or to, I think the negative vision of it is just sort of punish the actor more because I don't really see what I didn't really see how the character is being served or the actor is being served with what she had to do during those wedding set pieces while everyone around her is threatening or yelling about it. It's interesting because we were talking last week, I think a little bit about how um the Cassie and Nate thing seems to be happening on a different television show. And then when you make that the sort of main arena, it almost muted what the Alexis D emi character and what the Zendaya character and what the Hunter Schaefer characters were even doing. Yeah. You know, and uh I'll say this. I've said this, I think, a couple of times over the course of this season. I am never bored for one second while watching this . Like, maybe it's just like the visual panache, maybe it's the cutting, maybe it is the wild swings between genre that happen from scene to scene, so that you're like, well, I we're back in a fucking western gangster Tarantino show, or I'm now I'm in the most harrowing parts of Midsommar. You know, like you swing back and forth, and in every scene, I find an image or a moment like Sydney Sweeney's bloodshot eyes as Maud Apital is like is her sister, Lexi is like That's her sister? That's her sister, yeah. And her sister is like I just need a second. It's almost like we have to step down for a minute. I gotta go for a walk and I gotta get out some stuff that I don't think we should put onto the internet . Okay. That's her sister. Uh-huh. And the the conversation where she's just like, Are you okay? And she's like, Why are you asking me that? Is the best day of my life. It's fucking good stuff, man . Um but I was thinking about this because like uh I'll just I'll just uh I'll just keep going with this. Yeah. I was thinking about this with the saran rap scene. Uh so Jules is uh becoming uh a sugar what's the baby sh sugar baby uh and is dating guys with the understanding that they're like she'll provide a certain experience for them and that they're gonna pay her for that. But there's different, like there's variants. Like each guy wants a different thing and she happens upon a a plastic surgeon named Ellis who um becomes her her main This is Sam Trammell who is on True Blood. Is it Trammel or Tremel? I was gonna you know what I decided to do in that moment? Let's like I think of uh Alan Tremell, the Tigers shortstop with Lou Whitaker and Tremel Tillman from Severance. Right. So whatever his however he chooses to pronounce it I'm I'm with him but uh that is that scene like this sort of sequence culminates with Jules going to his apartment um and this incredible piece of Han Zimmer and the and the Zimets music playing. I truly do want to know if Han Zimmer was like, so describe what I'm making music for. Hans Zimmer just googling mummification fetish and the Ellis character uh wraps jewels in saran wrap and c round her entire body, except for her mouth and nose so she can breathe, and then starts making out with her and is like, I'm gonna keep I'm I just might keep you forever it is just such a stunning image yeah I suppose it's problematic I I I've not yet start tr ied to unpack how it's mummifying her seems, you know, laden with meaning. But I don't know, you just like when when do you see something like that? Yeah, look, I mean I think I'm with you. Imagine. I said that's the kind of thing where it's like as an image, I don't even know what it's supposed to mean in relationship to the rest of Euphoria. Now I had to get a new TV. Just threw it straight in the garbage. Thanks, Sam Levinson. Yeah. If you were to engage with this show, and I've tried to, and maybe look, maybe this is just the problem that was always waiting for me with my watching of Euphoria, which is now it's becoming an ongoing television show for me, not just a series of striking directorial images. And the problems are starting with my reaction to it. These series of images that we're seeing on the screen are not boring. And they are striking and there's a lot of thought given into each one and the composition of them. And I continue to just be blown away by the color story of the show and how much work went into not just on the day by the cinematographers and the and the the camera teams, but like later in color correction. That's what it has to look like. What that's like the the the Rue selling guns sequence is like, this is this is awesome stuff. That said, this is and maybe this is where we differ, and this is a healthy source of debate. I fundamentally don't find sex work, guns, and drugs interesting in a vacuum or in a photograph. Okay. I want to I know. This is our last episode. Go take it up with your sister, Maud Abbitau. You don't find sex work, guns, and drugs just on their own, disconnected from humanity or human beings. Well, okay, say more . That like Zendaya playing with an AR-15 is a hell of an image. It's also ultimately to me, kind of impotent and lame because it's just Zendaya with guns. It's not about anything. It's about performing. It's about play acting. And I felt the same way about the gangster eating pie while his associate beats the shit out of a lordie and associate. Oh, what do you think the relationship is? Do you think he gets healthcare? That's what I was thinking . You think he's an E VP in the U.S. he might be a task rabbit. Like we're all Uber drivers to a degree now. Um you know what so like as a series of images, it is well constructed, but what does it signify? Like I I just found it to be um what's the word I'm looking for when I talk about the show? Morally bankrupt. I don't think that's throw that out there. No, that image. Though I'm not going on that high horse, I can't get there anymore with my knees, but I'm just saying the sequence of pictures are starting to dissociate from any kind of engagement that I potentially would have had with the people who are in the pictures. I I think it just feels like what the priority is maybe differing. Now, when we go back to the Rue, Alamo, Laurie stuff, I think it's at its best, it's slightly above Tarantino light thus far, but it's engaging and it's well shot and its central figure is one of the great actors we have at the moment doing something unique that she's clearly interested in exploring. And so I'm in. I am into that show. And so maybe you could we can write we can maybe we could describe it, move on to next week under the idea that, well, this episode was about other things that I'm less interested in. Possibly. My two com rejoinders to that would be one, and your mileage may vary on the social commentary uh being offered by euphoria, but there is that very like sort of darkly comic line that the that Rue says where she's like, you may be, you know, thinking to yourself like like she's selling guns. Yeah. But I assure you, they were all going to Mexico. You know, like that, that kind of like, does that make you feel any better about things that I don't think the r no, I think the rue voice, and again I'm not assuming intent here, but I think that the rue the Rye Rue voice which is undercutting, which is pointing out some of the, you know, uh hanging a lantern on it, as we may say in the TV industry, about like how ludicrous or hyped up some of it may be, helps. And I think on a very basic level, like it just strikes me as someone who is making a new season of something that has to connect dots and advanced story in areas that he and the people involved may be less interested in. I also wonder that story has the juice. It does have the juice. And it is a good story so far. And this woman's sort of quest for even like she says things like I want to go legit. And it's like, does she have any interest? in going legit Does she even care? And that Alamo interrogation of the idea while very Tarantino and it's like, let's do a history lesson, uh, you know, might be a little rote for people, but like, yes, if it was just the Rue story, that would be one thing. The switching between these couple of other storylines and the way in which it happens kind of makes me wonder whether this is the most expensive and beautiful uh experience of swiping through reels that I've ever seen. Because my brain actually does respond to and now something else. A home run, a cat, a, you know, like an instruction on how to putt. Like like But that's like a woman wrapped in saram wrap, like a gun sale, like a wedding. It's a like these these things don't sit next to Creamy pint of Guinness, plate of pasta, steamed white fish, creamy pint of Guinness. We can all play this game. Yeah. But that is kind of how Euphoria feels. It feels like short form video made with tons of money on a wide screen. Yeah, I I think that whenever historically when I have played the A Moral card, it is a conversation ender. I'm not trying to walk away from this project because I think that what first of all the headline remains what you've said each week. It's not boring. I did find some of the connective story tissue of this episode boring, but that's on me. I didn't watch the show. Right. I think that there is there is something to be said about something that is so extreme in its stylistic choices and in its points of view and what interests it collectively, although when we say that we pretty much mean Sam Levinson, that it is not like other things on TV. We may never get something like this again with this level of celebrity in engaged something that, you know, that they were contractually obligated to be a part of years ago. I'm still on like, I don't think people did this against their will. No, no, no. I don't mean to say that, but I but you don't get we've never had anything like this before. Yeah. It bec and and it is a fascinating if nothing else, and I think it is more than this. It will be a fascinating artifact of this era in which TV takes so long to make and the logistics are so challenging that you end up with a third season that is essentially both a new first season and also just a very bizarre sliding doors digression season um based on what people are passionate about at the time they finally got the schedules aligned and the budget locked. Yeah, I'll just, I mean, like even on an episode like this where it didn't quite hang together as much for me, or maybe it was like a little bit of a letdown because I wanted more fireworks between the main cast in one place . Uh Maddie walking back to her sad apartment after a day in like the opulent Calabasas dream world. Uh for better or for worse, the saran rap scene, Rue selling guns, and the whole uh Lori like pal adin situation at the end was just like those are three like four standout moments that honestly, like on a bad episode, Euphoria for me still has like a couple of moments that are better than anything else I'm watching, so i I give it a lot of leeway. Do you did you have a particular reaction to I and now I'm just trying to do the I'm trying to do the work of someone who had watched the show, but there was a scene when Rue's driving when she's on the phone with the character whose actor passed away, right? That's correct. I'm curious to see how much I know that honoring Angus's memory was a very significant motivational thing for for Sam Levinson in making the this season entirely , at least in the interviews I've read with him. And I am curious to see how much he makes Fez a character. Not that I think he's gonna show up in any kind of way, but that the idea that he is going to try and escape prison now is much different than oh we just hear about him in the background a bit. Aaron Ross Powell Well also the the the genesis of the show, right, is both in terms of the background of what attracted Sam to the storyline and then also the storyline that's the like the beating heart of the first two seasons is an addiction story, right? And a cast member passed away from an accidental drug overdose. So you wonder if that if there's a if it's inspired if if they were motivated to make it in his honor, I wonder what the thematic on-screen response to that event might be. And I I think if if if as seen in the in the trailers, if Coleman Domingo's character comes back into the fold, I'm sure that will be a factor. We should wrap up Euphoria there. I look forward to talking about it with you next week. Kaya, what's your fly what's your flower budget? Yeah. Has it fluctuated at all in the last few weeks? I will say that um I know I'm like pretty badly wedding pilled at this point because I saw all those flowers and I was like, I think that makes sense for 50K. I mean it was very lovely. Do you think you'll get that kind of pep talk on your walk down the aisle ? Like Cassie got? I can only hope. Yeah. I I have to say that um this is a sidebar that I did want to bring up on this show one way or another, that I think it's incredible that it took the release of the Michael Jackson biopic for one of the most brilliant pieces of comedy of the last few years to finally be discovered by the mainstream, which is the bubble thing. Which is John Mulaney interviewing Langston Kerman as Bubbles from last year's Everybody's Live with John Mulaney. Talk to me. Talk to me . Those of us who were the we were we were with bubbles shooting in the gym, first of all. We've known how funny that is. But I only want to bring it up because it's a masterpiece and the first shot of the ice sculpture I did think was Michael and Bubbles. Right. Which I think was intentional. But I I did think that it was John Landis also was drinking the toilet. I mean Sydney Sweetie being like, I I look fat in this ice sculpture, and him being like, it'll you'll look better as it melts, and she's like, but I don't want my boobs to melt. Is like where else are you gonna get that? You know? No, it's it's it's like the it's it's it's like show me the way. It just it's from Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks to that. You know what I mean? It's just the way comedy. I thought that too, because you planted that seed. Then he was just a really really sweeter , and then he got his toe cut off. When we talk about it next week, we should probably, I assume there'll be more about them in their happily married life that began. Maybe I'll do a lore download for you next week. I just that might be my my my job for next week. Because I don't do another week. Well the draft's over. My schedule's clear. I don't get those characters . I don't understand. And I don't understand the dynamic. So maybe maybe maybe now uh that he has to get Nas's money it'll you know. You get the characters on Beef though. Beef season two, which is a show we Is this your segue? A little we loved. Yes. And uh don't want to belabor it. We can maybe touch if we want to talk a little bit more um broadly about the season. We can hit it on Thursday. So we want to get into our interview with Sunny Glee, which went on for about 45, 50 minutes and was wonderful. He talked a little bit about his writing process, his pitching process, which I thought was very interesting. Um and everything about uh casting beef season two with Kaylee Spainey and Charles Melton and Oscar Isaac and Carrie Mulligan, the themes he was looking to discover, um, some stories from set. Really, really exciting to talk to him. He's he's an awesome interview subject. And then some X-Men. And some X-Men. Uh so let's get into our interview with Son ny and we will be back on Thursday for, I would imagine, okay. Top chef restaurant wars. Yeah. I we hear you, everybody asking us to watch America's Culinary Cup. Perhaps one day. But I I have only so much time in the day for cooking shows, frankly. What about you? I I all I too only have so much time in the day for cooking shows. I'm with you. I but I have not watched it yet. And I'm sure there's some other stuff I'm just forgetting right now. So that's a hell of a tease. Thank you to Kaika ya and uh Sarah for shooting with us today. And we'll be back on Thursday. Enjoy this interview. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list, not one more. With Carvana, it is. Just go to Carvana.com, enter your license plate or VIN and get a real offer down to the penny. 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Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, stop subbound, and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before schedule procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking zip bound with a sulfonyl urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit setbound.lilly.com . Want to support your gut health? Take Activia's gut health challenge by enjoying two Activia yogurts a day for two weeks and see if you feel a difference. With billions of probiotics and 20 years of scientific expertise, activ ia is one of the easiest and tastiest ways to start your gut health ritual. Try Activia today. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle may help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort, which includes gas, bloating,ing, rumbl and abdominal discomfort. Sonny, thanks you so much for joining the watch again, man. It's uh it's great to see you and congratulations on a fantastic season of beef. Thanks, man. This is the fastest ever turnaround from loving a show to having the creator on. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it. I was like, they like it. I wanted to ask you a little bit. I don't know if you think about things in these terms, but I was trying to you know articulate a bunch of my feelings about the show, and one of the ways I usually do that is try to describe genre. And uh I came up with dark screwball for for the season of beef, and I was curious if you would ever identify a genre or a micro genre for the season for yourself that maybe helped you find the tone. Um Yeah, the tone's hard on this one. Yeah. It's like uh I came up with a formula season one that I just kind of did as a joke, but it's weirdly stuck for everybody. Where I call it like thirty-five percent uh soprano slash early PTA comedy where you're laughing at the broken psychology of people, plus 35% like Netflix venibility slash white lotus water cooler moment moments, plus 30% uh Hirokaza Koreada, Igmar Bergman, warm melancholic pathos. Which percentage of those percentages do you share with Netflix? Because I I felt them lean in in the middle. Did you say binge ability ? They they weirdly like uh I think I think part of the reason I came up with the formula is to help them like understand the show. Yeah. Cause it's like so hard season one, especially to take what's in here and like get people to get on board. And oddly that formula like worked for them. They were like, okay, like as long as it's like balanced like that. Um and Bell is like more core . Like that's I'm so sorry. If there was a Norwegian filmmaker named bingeability, oh god. And you could just reference, you know, it's just like, oh of course, you know, it'll be very bingeability. And it's like, yeah, okay, well he's blank check. Yeah, weirdly, uh they they uh have been I think it's like I try to treat the conversation with networks like uh just always explaining the why, you know, instead of like digging my heels or anything. Like I remember one time uh and I hope it's okay that I share this, and if not, I'm sorry, Netflix. But uh they I think with season one, like episode three, we were at an impasse. Like they just were like not like wanting to do the show anymore and uh and I like sent them a I think it was like a TED talk on this concept called the beholder share it's like an art history term about like why pa intings, like great paintings offer a lot of share to the eye of the beholder. And I like explain to them like if a bed, bath, and beyond painting, like people don't like because it's like this is a beach and there's no participation from the audience. Right. And whereas Mona Lisa, like, you have to interpret it and wonder why she's smiling. Is she smiling even? And like we had the whole like one hour Zoom talking about this concept. And by the end of it, they' likere,, okay no, like we get it now. And so uh they're like, yeah, we we see what you're trying to do in episode three, like in terms of like the beholder share thing. Maybe like here's a little bit too confusing for us, but if you're saying that the audience wants to participate, great. So like I find that like talking like overly talking through everything gets me through some of these . You're my hero. That's incredible. Now, genuinely do you think like what percentage, because you're good at fractions, do you think they were like this really moved me and changed my perspective about television versus he sent me a fifty-five minute video to watch, I'm just gonna let him make the show? Well you don't have to name names, but I'm just wondering if it's uh I think it's probably both. It's like a combination of all the things. I mean that's why like my pitches to to networks are so involved with you know I uh I I I you know I I went to UPen and was supposed to be an investment banker. So PowerPoint is like actually like my true medium. You know, I'd say even more than television . And uh like I have these very involved like 50 minute pitches where I'm like photoshopping the like the actors into existing frames from other movies, and some of it almost is animated, and there's like music. And I like literally go through the beats of the pilot with score. And then I even like have title cards in PowerPoint that like I cut to as like to punctuate a pitch. And I do all that to just not leave anything to anyone's imagination. Do you feel like you it that is actually a creative ac t for you? Like do you feel like that's where uh the sort of creative ball starts rolling downhill? Totally. Yeah. And like weirdly I like thrive in that PowerPoint meeting. It's downhill from there. It's all downhill from there. Yeah. So season two, which again I just think is really, really amazing. I loved watching it. And I especially loved the way you built on what was season one and changed some things, slowed some things down, worked di theals a little bit to communicate, I think, better what the series of beef, now that it's potentially ongoing, is to you. One of the biggest things was clearly that season one is, you know, incredibly escalating conflict between the two leads and everything spins from that. This season not only has two couples, but I thought very brilliantly made plain over time that it's not just about a B for a conflict between two people, but about uh groups of people and ultimately about people and class and like a larger system. Yeah. Um how many different versions of a story did you have to run through to figure out the best canvas for that idea Oh a lot. I think episode one had sixteen drafts, sixteen network drafts. And so that's not even like including Yeah, it was just uh finding the right shape is so hard, you know. Um I think what I was running up against to is uh uh uh up against was um just I kept feeling like 'cause there were versions of the show where the beef started more overtly like uh got to probably the blackmail way sooner. And um I just found that when it was more overt that the story math after that started to become really similar to season one. Right. Um and there's ways to like offset it once you get deeper in, but like just that initial domino, I was like, oh I I just energetically f have done this. And um, you know, I just want to I don't like repeating myself and I just think about my favorite musicians and bands and you think about sophomore album compared to debut album and when they're like too similar, you just start to like lose interest a little bit, you know. Like I mean I I love Kings of Leon, but you know, that's kind of why I like fell off a little bit. We have a long term beef with them on the show. That's f Great, let's get after it. Let's do it. King's Leon, what's going on? Um no, but like you look at a band like Radiohead, that's the Holy Grail. Yeah. To go from Pavlohani Ben's okay computer to Kid A is like insane. Yes. And so we we kept talking about like uh in prep uh and within the writers room, like are we doing like are do we want to go from like Ben's to okay computer or do are we talking to okay computer to kid A? And so we're trying to like figure out the right level of swing that we wanna take. And that's why we went through so many drafts is okay, what started to energize What was the thing if you can pinpoint one or two that felt exciting and fresh to as a as a new starting point for the season? I think it was sort of the the slower burn felt really nice to me. Um and uh I uh actually a something that really clicked in in the edit was also the cold open. We had so many versions of how to start that first episode. One was starting like completely in the um older couple's perspective and staying with them for a longer time. There was one version where we did younger couple's perspective. So we just see the fight from their eyes. Oh. And then it wasn't until Josh was deleting security cam footage that we saw the fight through the older couple's eyes. And it was like this kind of like surreal thing where he was like looking through the footage and you saw the fight happening behind him. And I you know that was cool like from a filmmaking standpoint. Like Jake and I were getting excited about doing that. But then just it was it just felt strange to keep these perspectives separate. What felt more propulsive was that innercutting of like, here's here's this naive young couple, here's them fighting, and it just felt these two trains that clearly were gonna collide. And I was like, oh, that's that's the show is just constantly like playing with how much these these two couples are colliding or not colliding. That other version sounds a little moon-shaped too. It's like a little cerebral and chilly. Yeah, no. No, no, no. Um, did you feel like there was anything energizing or um inspiring about changing the topography of California that you were covering? Because obviously it's more of a Southern California, it's you know broadly a Southern California show, but you start pushing up the Central Valley here and pushing up. And like, you know, I just was in Ohio, Ohio this weekend, and every time I'm like, I could live here. I'm also like they talk a lot about spiritual cosmic vortexes here, you know? Like and there is an element of like you go there and you start to immediately think about like how to improve yourself all the time A.aron Ross Powell Totally. And I was curious what attracted you to the both the Mona Vista part, but also like that that whole area. Yeah, I I think uh you know for me, for whatever reason, I have a hard time just writing from nothing, you know, and I and I I need life and the universe to show me things. And that's just what I was experiencing. Yeah, you know, uh I just find so many of my millennial friends have either moved to Oi or bought a place there or vacation there often and there is this especially for millennials for some reason this like idea that that is this escape where like we can clean slate and everyt And uh and then Monecito, I uh uh a good friend of mine, Chris, he uh we you know we've been friends since our twenties, like temp together, uh like been so poor in LA together and then recently he came to into a a lot of money. Like he was number three at a company that sold to I think PayPal for like four billion dollars. And so he's a member at Montecito Club now. And I was house sitting for him and he was like, Oh, you can use my membership for a month. And I was like, How much do you pay? This is crazy. There's nothing in the world that'd be worth amount this amount of money. And I use it for like three days and I'm like, can I see that application please ? What was it that appealed to you? Because I think one of the other things that's so brilliant about way you've crafted this season, every character is human, every character is fallible, and every character wants things. Even if they shouldn't want them. And I think that you don't shy away from that. So maybe that also came from experience. Totally. I I I mean we talked a lot in the writer's room about hedonic adaptation and just like how quickly we as humans like just new stimulus, new environment, like bam, we adapt. We're such adaptable creatures. And suddenly we forget we can't go backwards. That's actually once you fly in the front of the plane, you get a hand. I I didn't interrupt you, but like Ashley's such a fascinating character to me, because one of my questions was do you think that even if Ashley and Austin had never come across Josh and Lindsay fighting, Ashley was always gonna find something that was like a lever to like move her life along. Or was she was she ever gonna be content just being like, I guess this is just what things are, you know? Like I don't think so. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think uh I mean that's what's fun about the way Kaylee played that character too. Um and we talked about it a lot with me and her and Jake of like how much we wanna start her innocent and that this is like a brand new, almost like disease that she inherits from everybody else or what's innately inside of her. And where we landed, I'm so glad you asked that is like she plays it where even when even in the pilot, like you feel a little bit on like that that is in her. Yeah. You know, there's this like slight like edge to it. And even like even in her like love for Aust in, there's an anxiousness because she I you can just tell this is someone that like is seeking and gr like holding on or wanting more. And so I I absolutely think even if they hadn't witnessed that, she would have found something else that she needed to hedonically. It's such a great portrait of like people in love at that age where you're like, this is so cool, right? Like we both work at record stores. Not that I'm speaking of personal experience . Like that moment where the one person wakes up and is like, So what are we gonna do? Like what are we gonna do with our lives? Like this is fun, but like are you ever gonna wear a a shirt with buttons? Well also once they've seen as they see in the beginning, once they see how Josh and Lindsay live, when you go back to their home, we're seeing it the way they're seeing it. It's a perfectly fine apartment for 20 year olds, but then they've seen what maybe they feel they're supposed to have. Exactly. And we're watching that as well. Well, I mean, uh that was what was so fun about kind of writing these younger characters as a room. And we have you know younger writers in the room too, but just thinking about what we used to be like. And what's funny is like it feels not that long ago, but then also so long ago to think about like relationships from twenties. And then a funny thing that came up in the room is just this like the the question, what are you thinking? You know, like like you used to asked that like so in love, like because you genuinely wanted to know what the other person was thinking. Yeah. And now it's like never said in like a like like it's like okay, what are you thinking? Like you know and so like just So you're thinking now, huh? Congratulations. Yeah, it's like the last thing you want to ask. Staying on the young couple for a minute, because I thought Charles Melton is just like revelatory in this show. He's so good and he's so funny. And it's such a rare thing to have someone who can be self-aware and smart at being slightly dumb. I thought they were incredible. And particularly when you give him early on the line about actually this is all late stage capitalism's fault. And you realize that he's read this on a Reddit board or something. Yes. And you've captured this tone that is both giving us a roadmap for what the series is going to be about, because that is what they come up against. And it does undo them all. But also he's a little bit clownish when he says it. It's a convenient to blame. Yes. That felt like a really important hinge point for the character and for the season. Aaron Powell So much of uh writing Austin was looking at our own lives and what how I feel like we all do that these days. Like lately I've been saying like, oh yeah, I just read and when I say that, I'm like, no, I saw on Instagram, you know, two sentences over a stock photo you know well where's my mind for you Yeah and so you know I think Austin felt like someone who truly uh you know there's he also probably has an insecurity being like a you know failed athlete and so he wants to feel useful and smart . Um and so he is trying to grasp at these larger concepts but can't. And um and I but I think I think for a lot of us like all the things we're grasping at are true. Yeah. You know, um we just don't have the means to fully understand it and to even understand why it's happening. But I I love the way that Charles played Austin too, because in the wrong hands it could have been very like too much of a buffoon, you know, like a classic like Kimbo. And I think Charles he injected so much more humanity into uh this character. Uh he was so protective of Austin. There are often times where he was so locked in that uh he would he would make the entire crew laugh, just like destroyed on set. And then he would he would have to like go to his trailer upset. And I was like, Are you laughing at me with me? Yeah. And he he was was like like , I feel like everyone's laughing at me. I don't know why people are laughing at Austin and Austin means well. He's like trying and then so like now like given some distance from the character, he'll like watch the show and laugh at himself like more than anybody else , but in the moment he was so in Austin that he couldn't even like take the fact that he was crushing on set. D did you I've read I've read varying reports on this. Like do do you write for these actors specifically if possible? Like did you write this for him with him in mind and was that also the case? Or maybe we know it's not the case for the older couple and we could talk about that? Yeah, I I I I try to attach actors really early on because I can't write to people in a vacuum and um or write characters in a vacuum and Charles was the first piece because I knew the uh half Korean arc was really important to me and um I watched May December and was blown away like everybody else. Like that scene on But he's like he's so amazing in warfare too. It's like if you see him in warfare, like it's mind blowing what he's doing in beef because you're like, Oh, you could be like, I mean, he kind of does remind me of Brad Pitt in that way, where it's like he's capable of being the like the punchline in the in a scene, but he's also k capable of being like a full leading man. Yeah, he he's a complete chameleon. And um and so I touched him really early and like you know we became fast friends uh he likes to tell this story about on the basketball court uh because I had a I was renting this house and there was a basketball court we're playing basketball like every week and he was getting these early drafts and there wasn't a lot, you know, his his arc was like paced out to be what it is. And again, locked into Austin, he was kind of like upset. He's like, I'm just the side character. And he tells a story of him him blocking me really badly and that that was him taking out all this frustration. What's your story? My story is that I w I think I won eleven four. Yeah. That was a foul. Yeah. But uh no, I think what's what's great about Charles is that we he he just gave so much of himself to the project. Like, you know, all that time on the basketball court, I was like mentally noting all the little ways he spoke. Like Charles loves to put handles on his like whatever he says. He'll be like, if I may say this, Sonny, my perspective is my perspective is Sunny that I think and so he'll like say all these handles before he gets to his point. And so I'm like, oh that's so Austin. Yeah. And so I was just jotting down all these Charles isms to kind of make this character very bespoke to him. But I did that for everybody, you know, I think just hours and hours of conversations with Kaylee, with Oscar, with Carrie. You know, Oscar and Carrie like, you know, they they discover a lot in rehearsals and like we'll have like hours of like really d in depth zoom conversations about super personal things and so then I'll spiritually put that into the characters, but then dialogue, that's all a lot of it is discovered uh um in rehearsals and then that'll kind of get them feeling good and then usually after that we'll like start to r put back some of the like little ornamental like jokes and stuff that we liked. And then once they feel like they're in a good foundational place, then they're like more apt to try some of like the sillier jokes and stuff. When did when did Carrie and Oscar come on? And did you have to tweak like for example, Carrie being English is essential to the character now in a way that I can't imagine it otherwise. But I don't know what draft that turn occurred. That uh they came on pretty early. It was Charles and Kayleigh first, and then and then I was sort of looking at different configurations of actors that had a history behind them. Right and uh wanted people who had worked together before. Yeah, 'cause the first impression of Josh and Lindsay's so bad that I was really worried that no matter how we write it, we might lose the audience if they don't feel this inherent uh like subtext between the two. And um so Oscar and Carrie it's like, you know, they're in two of the greatest movies of this century, you know, between Drive and Inside Liman Davis. Uh and so I went after Oscar first just because we're both at WME and uh that was easier. So romantically I wish I had a better story. But uh and uh you know what? Um There's some jokes about his height in in the the show. There is, yeah. Uh and um and he he I mentioned Carrie and he like lit up 'cause I guess they've been pitching each other for every project they've done since I live in Davis. And um and so I went to Carrie pretty soon after and was he didn't you say he's she's like his favorite person to act with basically yeah. They have a safety between them that is like insane. Like you watch them together and it just feels like it's like I don't even want to say Jordan Pippen, it's like two Jordans, you know? Like Spider Man means Spider Man means. Uh there's a shorthand between them that is like unreal. And they just they don't even have to say anything. They just like know like where the other person's going. Like one person starts to push the scene a certain way and there's like not a missed beat. Um, it's really crazy to watch. But uh yeah, I think they both attached pretty early on. I don't I think I had maybe like one draft of the pilot um that I had sent to them. And you know, once Carrie was on, I'm just like, oh, we have to switch to British. She's amazing on the show. And the specificity, and this is a theme I keep coming back to when talking about how much I love the season, but the specificity of her being sort of this slight ly failed British aristocracy posh lady who everyone on who sees her on Instagram thinks she's thriving. But of course she's she's run out of funds and she searches the Daily Mail for people she knew or once slept with. That twinned with the absolute like millennial headshot of of uh Josh loving hot chip, which is so specific and not a diss at hot chip. But I've never met anyone who said hot chip is my number one favorite band . But it's so razor sharp. Do those things happen first? Like you think of that and the character comes from that? Or as your Aaron Powell It's as we're building it. And that that was really early on uh with Oscar, because uh truthfully early drafts had him the the synth stuff and the moog stuff didn't exist. Uh it was sort of like first thought laziness. I I had we had written more that he was like really into like the Lumineers. And so we had like I'm here for that season. Three scenes where he like like there was a lot of Ho Hey like covering Ho He and uh and I think also I was like I like so hell bent on remember that out cast cover of Heyah that was acoustic. Yes. Oh, sure. And I just that's so millennial cringe to me that I was like hell bent on getting that in the show in any which way or form. And so I think that's why we I leaned so hard into the acoustic guitar for Josh. But once I we started talking about it, Oscar and I it was like, Okay, you did that on Insight Lou and Davis, like we don't need to see Oscar Isaac with an acoustic guitar again. Like how am I ever gonna beat the Cone Brothers? I just won't hap So we start talking about like other things that are millennial cringe and then the idea of like a forty-some year old just like having this mini mug and like like just like because mugs are also really hard, you know, like you like buy it and then you like think you're gonna get really good at like oscillators and stuff. Like it's never cool. You know? And so uh that's when we were like started really laughing toget her. Of we talked about the the like that seminal concert at the bull where we literally name check in the show with LCD and hot chip opening. Like I feel like every person my age who's who liv ed in LA at that time was at that show and cried. And probably was on Molly. Yeah. Probably posted about it on Twitter when it was good. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so that's where we started having fun. We're like, oh, should it be L C D or something? But like Hot Chip felt like that perfect bullseye of I mean they're an incredible band. I've seen them so much live. But like you said, they don't quite get the shine that they deserve and they're also a band that would that Troy could call and in a moment show up at a Denver Chalet or a Utah Chalet and and and play at this like weird event. And so it's just like a lot of conversations talking about things that we find cringy about ourselves, you know? Is that also where because I was curious about the pop culture references and and the thinking around like, you know, rooting the these characters in having fights about bullet trainer top gun maverick and mezkel mezcol nights and yeah. Like the idea of like you populate it with I it's it's funny too because like I guess Josh and Lindsay do m a little more of it than Austin and Ashley because it's probably like they have more time to kill and they're more you know, they're like still indulging in all of of their cultural apa obsessions or whatever. Sure. But like you know, like uh Austin and Ashley are kind of like grinding to make ends meet, but when you when you're putting in references to to contemporary pop culture, are you like, how do I make this so that it's not immediately like, you know, in any year this is gonna be like oh okay we've dated ourselves I think it's just it it it has to feel like it's coming from character you know like even season one when uh Danny like I think he name checks like Lincoln Park hybrid theory. You know? And it's like it's just we just did that 'cause like that is what that person Danny would be talking about in even in twenty twenty three at the time. And and I think for someone like Josh and Lindsay, I just felt like I had heard different couples post COVID fighting about that. Like I've heard that like structure of a fight amongst friends of like, well, I didn't get to go to that because you had COVID. And so like just having heard that so many times in my own life, I'm like, okay, like that structure is very relatable. Like what movie could be that? And Top Gun Maverick and Bullet Train, those are just like I don't know, there's things that I feel like uh feel more of Josh. Sure. You know, like I don't think Josh is going to the theater to see like, you know, director Parks the Handmaiden at the Lemmley when it opens. But you have to be careful because it's gotta be something that Oscar Isaac could not possibly have been in. Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, we do. And he's been in a lot. I'm like, you learn drive, dog. Yeah. What you're speaking to is so interesting because I think that the one of the skills that you and your your crew and and creatives have is like to draw the universality out of something And I'm thinking in this case about the way you use phones and social media, which I think is the best I've ever seen on a TV show, because it's not just the the the text on screen, which we've seen, it's the s swappings between apps which you know mirrors the way and this is something we were talking about last week, like the way our interiority is so impatient and so restless. Yes. And we can just feed ourselves constantly, even within a thumb movement. Yeah. Um and you know, the way that like it informs the scene. So that Austin is just speaking chat GPT, tr sweating, trying to keep his head above water. Um, you know, or and you may have heard me say this last week too, I love that your show ran at the reality of recently deleted. Because I think generally when when when movies and T V use phones, they f they alight the bits that don't work for the drama. That it would still exist in the cloud. But you ran right towards it. And can you talk a little bit about that conversation that you have with your writers about how we we have to use what is actually out there? Thank you for noticing that because we we spend an inordinate amount of time talking about exactly that. Uh like, you know, I think that backup video thing is uh is a good uh call-out because there was there was some debate in the room of like should we abandon this backup video thing. Because like, yeah, like they would back it up to the cloud. And and it's just, you know, the things I've learned from watching stuff that I love, like Sopranos and Breaking Bad , they're always like not shying away from the thing that like backs you into a corner. Because that's what life does. Life backs you into a corner. And so then yeah, like, you know, uh if if Ashley like deletes the text, then like uh recently deleted, oh that sucks that it's there, but then like we should lean into that. Like we can make that a story point. Yeah. Um and and I think so we're always just trying to like look at our own lives the way we feel and try to figure out the most efficient way to dramatize that. Um, you know, the app switching thing, that's I had a shout-out someone on our VFX team, um, Melissa Khan, she came up with that this season. I thought it was just brilliant, you know, because it's such a quick way to do exactly what you're talking about. But we pour over everything from like like we spend hours like trying to find like the right like font and like you know um how much is true to the actual OS versus like taking liberty and and bending it. Like w how do we just make this feel like how it feels for us when we use our phones. And even in the mix, when um Ashley's texting Austin about, you know, can you go to HM? Can you do this? Like we boosted the his fast angry typing because that's how it feels when you're like angrily replying to somebody, like you hear it a little louder. And so just all these like very subjective ways we can create that experience because it's that that phone is just a part of who we are now and there's no going back. There's even like the stuff that happens uh when Ashley is texting Eunice about and is like Ashley's been in an accident, but like her texting as Austin is not Austin's voice kind of stuff, which is like that makes or breaks things. It can take you out of out of the reality of what's happening if it's not um if it's not accurate. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the Monte Vista and the the golf club stuff and then the connection to Seoul. And and I I know you wanted to talk about this as well, but I was curious whether or not to start with that came fully formed to you as like a whole package of this is where I want the show to go, and this is this other element of the show, or whether that was something that was developed over you know after thinking about these four characters for a while there was like I want to bring another element in it. Uh it was the former because you know Charles was the first piece because I knew that uh this half Korean identity truck tug of war was something that was gonna be very important to this season. And and as part of that tug of war, I knew that uh you know Native Korea was gonna be on one end of that. And and again, it was just writing from what I know, what I was experiencing. Like after season one, I was I shot a music video for RM, one of the guys in BTS in Korea, and I hadn't been back in a really long time. And getting the red carpet like rolled out for me and like getting wined and dine in like the private halls of a Kung Korean conglomerate. And it was, you know, there was I joked to this one actual chairwoman. I was like, hey, like I'm getting like a skin like uh self-conscious about my skin because you're like m making me meet all these K-pop idols. Yeah. And she just like without missing a beat, she was just like, oh I'll send you to my skin guy. I was like, what? Oh tomorrow uh in the morning a black SUV will pick you up and we'll send you to our skin guy. Don't worry. And so I'm like, okay, went in Rome. Yeah. You look great. Well you know, that was a while ago. I gotta go back. But I I did this like light laser and I was just writing in my notes app the whole time. I was like, this is fascinating. And um, I remember writing in my notes app before I even had like a page of anything for the show. I was I was just wrote old boy style fight in Skin Clinic with skin flying around. I'm just like, I haven't seen that before. And and you look around and it this is like a world that's like thriving. Like it's like one of the biggest like, you know , um like like uh agents of tourism for the country. Like people are like going over there in the masses and no one's really like dramatized this. And I'm always looking for new slices of the Asian and Asian American experience to showcase. And uh we had covered so much California Korean American diaspora. And I'm like, well, this is new and exciting to me. And so that was baked into the Charles arc. Um, how we went about it definitely changed as you attached to the greatest Korean actors of all time. That's the that's the segue to what I was gonna ask. You not only have uh Yun Yu Jung who won an Oscar and is you know an incredible actress as the supervillain of the show, um you got Song Kang ho, who's one of the greatest actors alive, to play a mostly comedic supporting part yes on the show . How how did how did those conversations happen? Miracle after miracle, you know, uh uh Y J I had met through Steven obviously on on Min ati they they worked together. And um I think I had uh I think I emailed her and then she was interested. So then I I met her in Irvine, actually at like a chairwoman, Mickey Lee, who's like the head of CJ, uh at her house. So it's like already very meta. And um and I was pitching YJ the arc and you know she's so she's much like her character, she's so intimidating because you just hold so much gravity, you know, she is like truly royalty. And um once it got to the part where she had a husband 20 years younger, she just started cackling. And she was like, no one in Korea would ever have the courage to write me a husband 20 years younger . And I think, you know, she's had such a story career to be offered something where she can feel like she's doing something new. It's I think something she's chasing. So she was in, and then I told her, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go after Swangango, because like why not? Like let's go for the moonshot. And um, you know, he he I had met through the success of season one. We had dinner in Korea a couple of times and I knew he was a fan of the show. But I also know like pitching him something that's like, you know, the sixth lead is like probably not gonna go over that well. And also he had a very busy shoot schedule that he was already doing other stuff. So his initial reaction was no. Like he I sent him a scene and he was just like, uh, like, I don't know if it's gonna work with my schedule, and I'm probably not right for this. And I went back to YJ and I told her, and and she just wasn't out like you're gonna figure out how to play this, it's gonna be great, and you're gonna be in the show. And so then like 48 hours later I got like a sheepish text from Song Gango being like, hey, a change of heart. At what point did you tell him what may be the masterpiece of the season, which is his long, beautiful soliloquy about the mask of of of wealth and celebrity and what lies behind it and the dark truth of life and then and then Austin says, I think I heard soup yeah. Yeah, he uh he got that pretty late because I'm like notoriously late with my scripts and the finale was written like deep into the shoot and um and I think he was getting a little anxious to be honest. Like uh he was texting me a lot through shoot about uh like golfing, like uh in classic, like I think like Korean misunderstanding, like kind of like Charles and and and like Charles's character and and Dr. Kim, he had texted me early on being like, is there gonna be golf in the show? And I thought hopefully I thought hopeful. And I was like, sure, whatever you want. You're the greatest actor of all time. He's like, uh, well, please let me know if there's golf in the show. And I was like, do you want golf? And he's like, if there's golf in the show, I would just love to know. And I was like, I can write you a golf scene. Does he need to like get his swing dialed? And he was like, fantastic. If there's a golf scene, great, please send. And I was like, I went to the writer's room and I was like, guys, we have to write a golf scene first. Hung on And like this whole time we're going back and forth about this golf scene and I was like this guy's like weirdly obsessed with like wanting to play golf in a show. That's cool. And it wasn't until like we were on the day shooting in Korea that he told me that he was like so nervous to dcause he doesn't know how to golf. Oh my gosh. And so he was stressed and I was like, oh man, I wish I would have known. You call this guy. That's his dream job. This is just like this season of Beef is ultimately cynical about love and marriage or clear-eyed about it. That's a great question. It's a good question. Follow up. Are you married? I am married and I think uh I think it's been interesting seeing everyone's different reactions because I I I uh I've been trying to get better about that. Season one, like I literally read every single word written on the internet about the show. There doesn't exist a word about beef. I hadn't read in season one. You need to go to Korea and get a laser treatment for that part of your brain that's holding on to all of it. And season two, I'm trying to be better and like stay off the internet a little bit more. But I have seen like some people are taking it very cynically and other people are like, oh, that's actually like really beautiful. And I think it is doing what we intended, where we wanted the ending to be open to interpretation. We want that beholder share. And we also want people's interpretation to change over time, depending on where you're at in life. And so like that's my favorite stuff is, you know, Sopranos, Mad Men, like, you know, I'll go and rewatch a cult Yeah. Where I'm like, oh, the way I received it in my youth is different than the way I'm receiving it now. And that's our intention with this ending is yeah, if if you're in a certain spot, you might take this super cynical. I where I'm currently at, I I actually see it as like acceptance. And and and you know, the reason we depicted the Buddhist concept of samsara as our last note was like, you know, the point of samsara isn't to be like, oh, like we're in this like eternal trap, like how cynical and give up. Like the path to enlightenment is like the acceptance of samsara. And it's only in like the letting go of it and in the like almost like letting the wave of this wash over you that there's hope of breaking the cycle and and and hopefully pushing through this trap into enlightenment. And so I I personally I mean this may change in 10, 20 years. I don't know. But uh I I certainly was trying to um express a a level of acceptance at the end. Aaron Powell So I guess as a way to sort of kind of start to wrap up, how durable do you think this concept of of beef is for you . Like I I love the idea of a of a a bucket you could put anything you're interested in, like as a show. But you know, I know you're obviously a busy guy. Like how how how much do you find yourself putting down ideas on like a notes app and being like, that's a beef idea? Like this fight I heard, this conversation I had, this idea, like it may not be like beef season three is rolling but like beef season three is like in your mind somewhere? Uh definitely not I I I I all my beef ideas that I had in my notes app I like had pitched to Netflix in trying to get a season two uh which like didn't happen for the longest time too. I was like, what is happening? I'm the beef guy. But uh Have you seen the Dead Talk ? I like so I've like run out, you know. I I I I've definitely have tried to express everything I can through the show. And if if this is the last season, uh which at this point I think is like a a you know a col,le ctive decision between myself and Netflix. Uh I'm I'm I would be perfectly happy if this was the last season because uh I'm really proud of the work we did and and I feel like I've said everything I needed to say through the show. But you know, I also didn't expect season two to even happen. Sure. You know, like I I didn't know I was gonna write about two couples until real life hit me. And and so if something hits a year from now, five years from now, ten years from now, I I'm I'm definitely open. But currently like it is a very like emotionally exhausting show to do. Yeah. It's like you really are sitting in the shadows of yours elf uh for an extremely long time. And I gotta write all these golf scenes. So uh I I I I'm ready to like I have so many other things I wanna pursue . We're we're pretty knee deep in X Men right now and which has been like such a joy uh relative to This is when I would use of Send Netflix the the um Tim Robinson thing of like, Oh my god, I can't believe he admitted because I'm asking you about that next. So I'm happy you said the word first. Sure, yeah, of course. Uh no, it's uh it's I think I I definitely need a break from from from uh from this uh uh vessel of like literally this show is called beef it's just antagonism you know I mean season three could be the brothers from Kings of Leon's beef with each other you know, just just throwing it out there. That would be easier to write. Yeah. So you said it so we didn't awkwardly dance around it. You are one of the writers announced working on the X Men movie for Marvel. I don't want to get you into any trouble with NDAs and things, but I was curious, um, process aside, uh, your X-Men fandom, like coming into it, who's who's your era, who are your guys, who are your creators, what brought you into that franchise before you got the call? And what interesting Aaron Powell Oh, I mean growing up, like that was like the one thing my dad and I would watch together every Saturday morning. So it's the cartoon. Well that was the initial way in, you know. Um uh and like cartoon for me like I was obsessed with Gambit you know obviously like Jubilee like you're like oh like Asian face you know like how cool like in this like group of superheroes and and so Gambit and Jubilee were like like my jam and I like I was really obsessed with Gambit. And uh and then like you kind of you know, like everybody else, you go in through Claremont and you know, I think that that or the the feeling of sort of the original team I think is uh the movies uh I love the movies as well but like uh it's a feeling that I that I miss, you know? And um and when you go back and watch uh not watch, but like read some of the earlier stuff, uh there there's so much uh like inner team, like almost like soapy things. Super melodramatic. You know? And they're fighting the danger room or playing softball. It's all about their own thing. Exactly. Yeah. And and and I think like the the movies in a great way like leaned into more of like the polit ical uh backdrop uh which is just always baked into X-Men but I think what's exciting about Jake's vision for this movie is he wants to get back to character first. He wants to really lean into sort of that like inner character dynamics and relationships and and um you know, play around with the soapy stuff that was like baked into the comics. And um we've been you know, me, Joanna, Jake, Kevin, Lou, we've been in rooms every single day. Wow. And it's so exciting like to have like literally in the Marvel Room, they have every character in the X Men comics just like put on the wall and you're just staring at like the best IP on the planet. You're like, can I get Bishop S? Yeah, it's the craziest thing. It truly is. Like, I like can't believe this is real. Like it's so exciting. And that's also the the the hard part of it. It's like, you know, you feel a great responsibility with this because yeah, we we like amongst us like we are like we we we're trying to f we can really do anything. We're not like behol den to to anything from the past. It's interesting because I think that one of the reasons why the MCU was so successful is because Kevin and his lieutenants were just elite at identifying the single log line at the heart of every one of these characters and communicating that like with a purity, you know, whether and then that continued on through Spider-Man. And I think that you guys, and I know you worked on Thunderbolts, you you were able to do that with characters that people weren't even necessarily aware of, or at least their connection going into it. X-Men it almost felt like for years I always thought that they maybe they were lucky not to have it in their arsenal because the log line is, you know, hunted and feared kids who hang out together but who also are avatars for every marginalized class in history, but then having large, you know, global uh villains gallery, but then also maybe shouldn't be fighting because they are an evolution of humanity. Yes. So I guess the question in there is how. Well I I think I mean we're really early on and I and I think um uh what I what I've loved about working with Kevin especially is that that guy just has like an uncanny innate sense of like what to chase. It's crazy. And I think Marvel has done a really great job of sort of clearing the deck. They had a lot of stuff going on. Yeah. You know, Kevin was being pulled in a million directions. Like they've cleared the deck. They're focusing on like just a couple things. You took Moon Knight season two off the table. I'm so sorry. There are so many ardent moon night fans. But never say ne ver um and and kevin's really locked in and his like there's times like in the room well he'll well he'll say something where like I think this and then like I'll be like you, know, on the carpet like, and of course every in interview question is about X-Men. And then like seven fans will come up. And then the thing that the seven fans say is what Kevin is like literally the thing that Kevin said in the room yesterday. So I'm just like, oh, he is just tapped in. Yeah. And, you know, I think he's put a lot of trust into Jake because