Casting and Production of Star City

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It's the hottest it could possibly be. Greenwal, greatreat to see you today on the Watch podcast. We are going to talk about the conclusion a little TV series called Euphoria, which ended last night with an hour and forty five minutes Series finale as HBO announced that what was what a threeree month journey it's been for some of us. Yeah. and So we're going to talk about Euphoria. We are also going to talk about one of my favorite news shows that I've seen in a long time Apple TV Star City, a spin off of for all mankind, but something altogether different and cool to to talk about There's a couple of other things, but I think Euphoria is definitely the headline. First of all, you can hit us up the watch at sppotify. comot Instagram is the watch pod underscore. You can watch us on YouTube at the Ringerash TV along with the prestige TV podcast who went live last night. talk about Euphoria. I wonder Wild if Joanna and Rob knew that I was gonna to be in an hour and forty five minute episode before they signed up for that, but they did a great job and they had some really great takes on the show. Do you think the Germans have a word for that feeling you get when you turn on an episode of television and see one C forty How often do we see one col in forty five Among the longer episodes of TV I can remember. I have some thoughts on that y. Yeah, there is I wonder if there's a German word for that feeling that I had when We had to go live for talkal of Thrones while the Sixers were still playing the Raptors in two thousand eightine. Oh, I didn't have to do that. I did yeah Wow, what was the word do you think Site. That's bad man. That's bad. Okay. and then you know, we might touch on like the end of has and like what where HBO is at right now. You're taking me on a journey today. I loveven. How was any feels for your weekend anything? No could do we can do that for watch after dark. I want to get right into it. Yes. Let's talk about how we felt about this finale. Okay. I guess I'm gonna start here. Be you had the more unique viewing experience, these being the only eight episodes of Euphoria that you've ever seen Did you Leave the finale satisfied I found this hour in forty five minutes to be a relatively perfect encapsulation of my three month journey in that I found it by I won't say exactly equal turns, but certainly some in each camp. I found it exxhilarating Hilarious outrageous ridiculous, frustrating, bordering bordering on infuriating That was my journey this year Before we get into the specifics of that, I think it's important if you don't mind. I think we could just go right at The main story here. Yeah. and for people who are just taking a little dance with us here. This is going to spoil the final episode and thus the season of Euphoria. and thus the series Yeah, which has now been confirmed I thought that The Almost It's certainly tragic and the almost U sooul death of Rue was ful and be upetting in ways that really highlight the fact that even in my limited engagement with the show, It was very clear the heartbeat Certainly no pun intended of the series is Sam Levinson's relationship to addiction and to his particular worldview on the scourge of drug addiction in contemporary American society. and for it ultimately to take the form of this like Beautiful, radiant, charismatic, surprising, hilarious, life seeking protagonist for her to go out with not even like what we've come to experience in media hopefully, although potentially in our actual lives of ODing and coming back and struggling, but just the automatic existence life switch that is fentanyl. Yeah was a gut punch, but I also thought that was really, really I thought it was a powerful use of his medium to communicate what this drug does, you know, And then it built on and by building on that, it had the almost landman esque polli explanation of what happened and what's happening in America during what appears to be his last Very much his last his last AA meeting. meeeting And we can talk about that and I have a lot to say about the Coman Domingo thing, but I really want to hear your thoughts on the extinguishing of a character that has meant a lot to you into the series. But I found and we can talk about the artfulness or however you found it to be of the dual the choose your own adventure morning that we see a fantasy morning that then spins out quite clearly into a last moment's death nightmare. But like I did find that if you just scoop that out I found that effective, but also I found that was a moment when as an audience member, I felt very in tune with what I believe the creator to be intended. Yeah, I don't think that I necessarily expected it just because Ultimately, thought I thought it Euphoria was was was rounding into being Rue's story. Yes. you know, And I guess it was And also this is sort of silly, but like I' just watching Bill's Inagram over the weekend and his daughter, Zoe had had a good point on one of his walkking talks where she was like, well R' the narrator So how would you How would you break? That sort of level of storytelling All this is being discussed by Rue in some sort of ofitions. There iss a cinematic tradition of posthumous narrators. Yes. ye. I mean she doesn't quite achieve suunset Boulevard here, but yeah, there is some of that. I was deeply moved by it U, I think that There are other shows that would have broadcast her death much more clearly in so much as There would be like a sacrifice that she needed to make, whether it was for Ali, whether it was for one of her friends for Jeweles, whether it was to do the last good thing that she could do. And in her fantasy and in her imagination, I think she is doing that. She's coming throughes for Fez who came through for her I think the fact that The actor who played Fez Angus Cloud passed away after a battle with addiction. But specifically, if I'm not mistaken, ended his life was fentanyl laced. Yeah. And Sam went on popcast, New York Times pop culture music podcast with John and Joe and talked about Um how and he has spoken at length about how like if he were using today the way in whatever capacity he once did There's in all likelihood he would be dead because there is this silver bullet and bullets out there that like take addicts out in this kind of Um vgeful almost way I I just found myself like really going along on that journey. And I thought that The two B actors on the show got an incredible showcase. The Rue and Ollie u Relationship was the most meaningful one to me probably of this series And in a lot of the ways that Rue kind of fantasizes about what she wants her last day to stand up to, which is Being there for Fez, reconnecting with her family, going back home I think that Ollies's Final act, which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Yeah. I'm eager to talk about Is in and of itself a fantasy? Yes. And I think I do think it quote unquote happens in the world of Euphoria. Yeah yeah. But I think that turning into Dirty hair, roolling Thunder, taxi driver and you know, even The Rlling Thunder, which is like this very Well loved B movie from from the seventy I' call it a B movie, but Tommy Lee Jones and William Devaine and about a returning soldier who is you know takes vengeance on those who take advantage of his family Um That was a very knowing nod. Sam has when he did his Euphoria film festival at the American Cinema Tech in L.A The one that he spoke for was Dirty Hirry. So I was like, oh, that's why I guess. Yeah. And I think that that is probably honestly a fantasy of the people who have lostes their children, their loved ones to fentanyl is that someone should pay for what is happening So I thought I completely agree with you about that. And I think that the most Sympathetic is the wrong word the most mayaybe empathetic, the most attempting to be attuned to the journey of the show and the creative process of the show, take that I can give is that this entire thing and made really made clear this season, which is the one I watch, but you can speak to whether this hangs over the entire series. But this is a project is a personal labor of love for someone who clearly throughout his life and not just because of his parentage and where he grew up has found both escape and meaning in art, but specifically in cinema. Who among us? And trulyook what we do for a living. Yeah. And So we did note throughout this season particularly that everything felt a little bit like kids playing dress up. I mean these are twenty three year old, supposedly set loose in this, you know, sinful U hellscape of modern Los Angeles. and Sometimes it struck me as very discordant. and like the other day when I called it like you know, Bugsy Malone in Stilettos, and other times you could sort of understand what the fantasy was doing for these characters. My most generous interpretation of the end without getting into dismissing it as just like sub Tarantino. almost pestiche schlock stuff. Yeah, which which always it kind of was is that The entire season is a referendum on the fact that In twenty twenty six or whenever the show is set, twenty twenty four. Most addicts do not get second chances. And so Rue's embrace of religion, Rue's embrace of a new life Rue's constant just miss being missed by shotgun shells, like her constant near misses. are not actually a hero story. These are just the last moments of thrashing in the net that's already caught you. Y. and that If you look at where she was, she hadn't made it very far at all. I mean, she was sort of toggling between these two almost obscenely cartoonish extremes of violence the Nazis and then the cowboy gangsters at the strip club And All of that being said what happens in the last thirty minutes or forty minutes of the show is a character who, you know, on Thursday, I was saying I wish there was a spinoff that was just Ali doing his work this character Slow show Well deens, what's the thing his previous wor that his saying that Rue being the last straw for him and him immediately then picking up a drink, quitting meetings, sawing off a shotgun and doing what he does that it was in some ways like giving this character who has lost so much and has been burdened by so much the grace to also lose himself in cinema, where he becomes dirty Bry and he can do something on screen no one in the messy complicated real world can do, which is shoot addiction in the head until it explodes like a B character on the boys Um, that I think as I'm pitching you on that, sharks like, do you buy that emotionally? Does that make sense to you? I'm not saying that it worked for me, but I I found that I find that argument that has come into my head more compelling Yeah, you know, what's funny is that I think that you When we intellectually like get into like the project here and what What this So your description of that second half of the episode and I'm ex Let's put aside the searchers. Payer can't get back. I do want to talk about that. That that I found that incredibly moving. Yeah Um The bar the silver slliippers sequence with Oie and Alamo. I think is like It's one thing in when you describe it or when you talk about like This is the best possible version of it. And I think one of the things that was difficult about this entire season is that I can tell you that But it's also got like eight Brazilian buttlift jokes and like a runner with a white dog and you know, kind of hat on a hat with Maddie being there as well. Super Bowl and VP, Marshaun Lynch getting his dick shot off. Yes, whichich he was very disappointed not to actually do that stunt as I learned from the after after show U did you stick around for that? I did. Yice. You do the work. Well, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting u what was the one that we just like I missed the credit sequence of Oh, yeah, and you hadn't even seen it. It was the pit pit. The pit. It's one thing to describe it and then it's another thing to experience it. And I think that during that It is set in the strip club and I get it But like There are elements of it that I think are distracting it from its pure power, you know, and it kind of diminished the impact. that I think it could have had. There's also just like storytelling stuff. Yes. that I don't think he took care of I don't think he properly set up Bishop turning on Alamo. That was not set up. I don't think that it's clear What? Rue's friends know about Rue's death or what it means to them. And whether like Maddie ever puts together was her I told Alamo that Rue was a DA informant and then days later, she's dead. I will jump on one thing with that I don't know I guess everybody is just assuming that Rue overdoseed. Yeah. I mean, not I don't carry too much water for this because I think that ultimately for me, as a storytelling mechanism in an episode of television, it failed. I was, but as we've agreed, like we were moved by and I think I deeply respect the decision to handle the end of the main character the way he handled it. And I think that there's an interesting conversation to be had, and we'll continue to have it about whether it is illuminating or ultimately kind of simplistic to have bothoth a director, a creator, and characters lose themselves in the extremity and artice of cinema as opposed to actually staying in the uncomfortable place that the show flirted with But I will say that I the way that So like the the entire way of the season came together again, we're going to choose to use the high minded version of it, which was this was all a vision as opposed to man, this was what he could string together considering the cast availability all the budgetary stuff Not budgetary stuff, meaning like he didn't have enough money, but like what it would cost to mount X, Y or Z things. Well, I I just don't know whether Hunter Schafer was available. You know what I mean? So it doesn't seem like it. What I mean is if you look at it that way, you can there's a positive spin and there's a negative spin. And when you of course, listen to Sam Levinson talk, it all seems like the vision came together I find that hard to believe because Rue is the main character of the show, and yet kind of haunted the show in a weird way in the margins, existed in a different show and never really crossed paths with anyone else to leave a meaningful mark emotionally that landed on other characters, which is a hallmark of serialized television. That said, you could say, and maybe he said in interviews that I haven't seen yet That was always the point because Rue is the main character when she shows up to Mud Appa, what's her name? Lexi's house, you know, and is sort of going on and on about the DA from Lexi's perspective, this is someone she knew four or five years ago who she opens the door to but then doesn't think about in the intervening weeks and months. Yeah. So when you hear about it, it is, like you said, it's like a That's a bummer, but in a way, I've mourned her already. Yes. And I think that when Lexi and Maddie are talking about Rue or when I can't remember if it's Lx or Cassie talking about Ru Matdie not truly says she was a drug addict. You know, it think Perhaps her friend friend group at that moment is like The phone call we were always expecting finally came Yeah. and what a tragedy and don't put together that In fact, she probably took like one or two percasettes for the pain of her hand. I think likely w one and that was because he made a show of taking from a different batch of taking one and giving her one. Yes. Yeah. because he took the one, which was, yeah, was probably actually like when you look back on that episode, I guess it's been it was kind of broadcast that's what was going to happen around Well, also his joy of her being employee of the mononth and doing a great job. Yes in the first conversation they had Got a Sam's cafe pizz order up M You know the best part about this spicy Italian sausage? I voted for this topping. Yeah, just another perk of being a member. Come join us. Sam's Club. You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank? Wayfair gets it. Planning on dining alfresco or relaxing poolside? Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to seventy percent off during Wayfair's fourourth of July clearance. sccore huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus, sururprise Flash deeals july sixth. Don't wait Shop Wayfare's fourth of July clearance now through july sixth at wayfare. com ay fair, everyvery style, every home. That's ye Where to go from here? I mean, I guess, do you want to talk I'd like to hear your thoughts on both the violence, you know, just in terms of that turn for the character Vi, but then also the turn back in a way of going to the homesteader stuff. And I really want to I'm really curious your take on the shows Almost Old Testament interest in the Old Testament. in the sense that cannot tell If it is, Sptical, credulous, mocking true believer. or if it is just what it seems to be, which is a creator or either for his own life or thinking of his characters grasping on to something like you would a life preserver in the middle of the ocean in that It's like you'd never thought about a life preserver before until you were drowning. because the way like I thought the weakest scene by far in the episode is Lexi T Lexy and Cassie I mean, the other thing is I don't want to be unkind. but like Zendaya and Coman Domingo and and my guy Adwalikenik Baje who plays Alamo exceptional actors doing exceptional work on this show, even when I don't love the material. Some of the other cast members, particularly the ones we're talking about in the scene quite weak, in opion. I just don't know that they had a ton to do. Yeah. Or they don't know what to make of it and maybe they weren't given sides. they didn't know where they were in a story. But that scene where she's like, you ever read the Bible was tough sleding for me? But I'm wondering how you felt about So all of that. Here's I'm going to make the case for it that the shows interest in and the characters emerging interest in the Bible is in and of itself notot all togetherether different than Sam Levinson using these sort of pre established much beloved cinematic and form spaghetti Westerns B movie Vengeance thrillers. Douglas Cirkke melodramas Hollywood pictures about Hollywood. a boulevard dam. know, and Tony Oi like close ups of people's crying faces, you know, like these kinds of things that I think Um as a kid who is largely raised by screens, like I identify with the need to like Look at real life and think about movies I've seen that can explain it. and to mitigate your own absolotional. And it's like a disassociative kind of thing, which frankly is also what drugs are about. Like drugs are a way of pulling down the shade and existing in a completely different world for a while where your brain is moving fast or slow or is feeling no pain or whatever it is So I get it I, uh, Your mileage may vary on how you feel about Maud Appetau as a performer. I think her reading of it as I hate to use the Didon We tell ourselves stories in order to live stuff, but The Old Testament is no different than Dirty Harry. All Spotify podcasts are using the Didd and reference way too much. The Old Testament is no different than dirty Hirry It's a story you tell yourself to like understand why bad things happen to people you love. Yes, and that Yeah, that that sex betrayal and violence. Goes all the way back. All the way back Yeah. And when they beattened people left and right back then. Beats brring your bagattes to the Yeah. Ia of like Lexi just being like, man, these guys are just beadting less than right. This is great. Yeah Yes. I This is why I think I have more tenderness towards this completely unwield the impossible finale then that I expected or maybe anyone listening expected is because I don't know. I felt All any of us are doing is trying to tell ourselves a story to keep the scaries away. to get to get rid of the anxiety or to mitigate the anxiety or delay the anxiety. And He is reaching for primal stuff, the most primal human stuff when he brings the Bible into it Um there was feeling of just like the Texas family as the Wait, this is really what Ru wants This isn't a bit and then no, these people are her heaven in a way. was confounding because it was a level of sincerity that in my limited engagement with the show felt quite surprising and untrustworthy was revealed to be quite trustworthy at the end. And interestingly where Ali is at this point he's Martin again And he as he said earlier the episode, he's been a Christian, he's been Muslim,'s a drinker, know he's been almost everyw. And it's almost as if The horror of everything that he's seen and done has scoured him clean and he arrives likeike a pilgrim basically to this notothing desert place And he is not oensibly religious, but then when he says grace and he's with this family and they're holding hands and he sees Rue, believer again in something Yes. I thought that That was the most effective use of a cinematic reference point that This episode had for me, which was framing Ollie as Ethan from the searchers multiple times as the outsider who can't come in to this Domesticated dressed Pace Palace essentially, you know, and I thought he very knowingly was doing that framing and then to have You've get the last image of him outside of the barn. U and the little girl comes up to him and is like, that's actually essentially Rue's spirit reborn three months ago And it's a miracle that this cow had a baby, but here it is. Yeah bringing him in And then You know All. This shows relationship to religion and what religion can and does mean to people. I think sometimes' fast and loose. I also am not a religious person so It's not really like my place to speak on what it means to the characters when I don't really have no, but a spiritual life, so to speak. There is something very if you listen to the words And if the moment is right There is something very calming and peaceful about prayer you know, and especially that the grace that they say at that table. And like That to me was like This is the baseline. This is what All humans should to strive to achieve. And even though those I believe, if I remember correctly, like those people had some pretty some political opinions maybe that I don't agree with, you know earlier in the season, but the idea that it's like you know We basically remember the dead May their memory be a blessing. That specifically made me sit up a little bit because that is traditionally that's a Jewish saying when people pass away. appreciated in that moment that if we were talking about Gem, fininally some representation in Hollywood, guess. No, but that like Martin at this point is a pilgrim who has moved through everything. Yeah. And when he's praying at that moment, I took that to mean He is now forming collection of things that are meaningful to him I also can't help but think that Sam Levinson put that in because the Levinson family probably has said that when they have lost people in their lives And um I found that moving. I found that interesting and expansive in its engagement with religion. You know, I think there's a secondary step here that that maybe the story of Euphorus that Rue wasn't able because of her addiction, because of her illness was not able to achieve. But like prayer and religion, this is maybe just getting older. I think it bec has become more interesting to me too, both because of the ability to like U to anything bigger than yourself. and get out of your own head, but also that like so much of what we talk about and not just us in Los Angeles, but I think there's like a secular religion that is getting better about telling people to practice gratitude, you know, which is essentially saying a prayer, it's just maybe not to anybody. and that there is a c and actually certainly in Los Angeles, there is a very strong spine of that type of belief And the fact that the show up until the very end, maybe, existed in a much more Old Testament binary heaven and hell, but you've never going you're never going to see heaven. was holding it back in that way. Like I don't know. I think that I'm engaged with this finale. there's a plenty that I didn't like and if we could get into it, if we wanted to, but I'm much more engaged with it. and this is a me thing, not a euphoria thing aspects of the season that really rubbed me the wrong way and activated me in a way that only things that I find to be spectacle driven or cynical do And there was a sincerity to the main thrust of this episode and to the grace of it was handled despite this silver slipper thing that makes me feel look, Whatever you say about this show and about this guy and whatever he does next and whether you make me watch it on the podcast or not, he believes it You know what I mean? Like there is no lack of courage of convictions here. so I want to be That's another reason why I don't, I'm trying not to be as reactive as I normally might be to things that drive me insane. Yeah. And I also I think I have gone back and forth where I was like, you know, in the beginning of the season, I was like my selling point on euphoria is it's never boring. Yeah. And the first episode got me because it was like the shot of her teetering on the wall That was cinema. Yeah That was awesome. And there that cool Damning praise because that can't be the only thing that art does. is stimulate some You know, some frontal lobe stuff you the way drugs do? Yeah. Yes B I didn't think that this episode was boring. I thought It would be it was able to do things where you were like Oh, of course, of course, this is what had to happen but also be like I had no idea that this was going to happen. Like in the back of my mind, I was like, Ollie's going to try and save her in a shootout of some kind and his sacrifice is what finally sends her down the right path or something like that. And I should have thought more about the fact that they had kept the Fez co character canonically alive on the show. I should have thought about the sort of that they had kept going with him about escaping and this that moment when she's woken up and he doesn't see the pill bottle that is right in front of her. And they're talking about this escape and she goes running out the door that that wasn't real. and that when she starts seeing images from her own childhood, that that was obviously the last moments of her life. The inclusion we sort of glided past it, but the inclion of Fez a character I've never seen. Yeah was I thought that was really remarkably done. and Um And again, a sign of my complicated relationship to the show where when it says like escaped inmate escapes via parkour and I was like, This show will do anything to perpetuate itself. Yes. when in fact, what it will do, and again in that moment, like There been there have been in the history of television, there have been sadly multiple tragedies where cast members have passed away or have for whatever reason been unable to continue on with the show or the show has continued on without them and the show tries to build that into the show world with very mixed results. And I thought this was one of the most touching and human that I've ever seen see it was like a very personal story to him. It may the show that was the that was canonical. I guess is what I mean to say. what happened to Angus McLeod is the story of the show And, you know, Sam Levinson has said in interviews that like it changed his idea of what the ending was going to be. So I thought that that was a pretty powerful And then I mean, just to put a bow on the ending, I thought, you know, in in the searchers The John Wayne character cannot come back inside after what he's done. L he is U doors and in the wild as America starts to build. Um it's community and it's towns and it's It's sense of like society, like guys like that get left behind. So to have this end With Ali being brought inside to the dinner table, I thought was a striking difference in it's an inversion of what like the imagery suggested initially And and it takes a it takes a reference point and says like my thing is is like this. I loved that. I the season ended Um, I think I have seen some some discourse about the flash shot of the American flag bllowing and being like that this was somehow like Maga coded or that like the end of the, you know, that the end of the episode was like overly conservative It's not what I got from it You know, I did not that, you know, ye, I to me, The flag is commenting on the transformation. there is a if there is any optimism And it's certainly streaked with grime But if there's any optimism in the worldview of the show It is that transformation is perpetually possible in both directions. Yes. I'm interested in his sense of like, can people change? because thenate storyline. againg, if we're going to consider this to be a season of television We need to bring we need to talk about all this. And so if you consider that storyline, I think that the message was no, like people's deons if they are evil in the again, in the binary sense that Ali says in this episode that you're either helping the world or hurting it, then you cannot change no matter how much you dress up or no matter how much good you intend to do with your senior center or whatever you know, whether you are an addict like Ali or you are a you know and only fans model you can change your presentation, you can transform quite easily and not just be accepted, but in the most American form of reward, you can get paid for it. Yeah. And I also think the dark side of that is that when you're a kid and The world feels more like even if you're no matter what, I think economic strategy you come from, the world feels like a playground to some extent. L you don't make a distinction between Um work and play. like it's just existence, you know? until everything is a hustle. Yeah, until homework starts getting due and then some of us rise to the occasion so let's don't want it at this table By it As you get older, I think you still usese the tools of your childhood to give your life shape and to give your life meaning and anotherother charitable way I could sort of understand Cassie Lexi, Matie is, you know, you talked about them playing dress up. You talked about it being like Bugsy Malone I think that you could make the argument that that's what life is is fake it till you make it. You basically are doing like this mimicry. You are doing like U I guess what I have to do is take the things that come naturally to me and see if I can make any money off of them. And for Lexi, it's telling stories and for Cassie, it's taking pictures and for Maddie, it's shaping those pictures and shaping like the way people perceive women Um and for Nate It was real estate, you know? There wasn't. It was if only for those zoning boards. zoning boards killed him in the end. Who do you think he's voting for in the mayor election? I don't I mean, if a few votes, we're going have some controversies. Great point. Great point. We could talk a little bit about some of the other plotlines. I think It's really worth noting that Hunter Schafer does not speak in this episode. I think you could make look at that and be like, it is a beautiful final moment of wordless communion between two characters who loved one another very deeply and in in Jels and through U you could also say Jules's last words to Rue were kind of like This isn't going to happen. So knock this fantasy shit off. like I'm here. This really works for me. I'm quote unquote Um, what did you think of Her Medusa painting. I am not really I don't feel qualified to comment on the character of the storyline because the character didn't really exist this season and didn't really have a storyline Yeah So that my to one scene with any other characters besides Ellis, the plastic surgeon and Rue. Well, it was the wedding. That's what I mean. one. Yeah, exactly. And it was my favorite scene between All right Any Non endea characters was the N and Julel ye conversation which again I think was in many ways, one of the most TV scenes in that it paid off something that had occur over multiple seasons So I don't feel qualified to comment on the performer, the performance character really other than to say I am not a fan of fictional painters expressing their emotion through paintings because inevitably they arere not going to be I don't think you're I don't know if they're going to get the effect that you wish you could get from They probably should not have done the painting sure The painting seemed sort of silly to me as did the sort of This is sort of imagine of Ellis was like, what the fuck is? What are you doing? But like sort of like the cho like there's more power and the silence and the expression of art and the painting was like You were serious about that? Like I didn't get that. and it felt I mean, this is this is the thing that I think is ultimately certainly a challenge for me. and I would imagine whether it's you know on your dial, it's more or less or maybe it's not articulated, but like, I think one of the real challenges of the season, and I guess it was an unavoidable one is that is ultimately a tweener. It was neither here nor there. It was neither committed to being a full throated continuation of a serialized television show that had a lot of character and emotion equity built into it, nor was it able to fully commit to being a what I you know, responded to in the trailer, which is a fuck you guys, this show is something different now. I mean, I think it definitely committed to the lder. It committed to the lder in terms of in terms of its service to the audience, but the fact that some of these character strands were continually attended to, even limited. Like my what I'm trying to say is either do it or don't. No, I compleally agree And I understand that Jewules is part of Euphoria and Hunter Schafer is part of Euphoria, but there was no room for that character this season frrankly, regardless of schedule. You know what I was kind of I was watching it and you know, there have been shows that I think we either have a sense of how they were made or what sort of challenges went into making them or You know, we are aware of like scheduling mishaps or issues that plague the show Um I think the best possible version is when it comes out and it's like exile on Main Street and it sounds like everybody's in the room. You stop asking the questions. You know what I mean? Yeah it sounds like everyone's playing in a room, but in fact, it's like one guy's in France recording on an answering machine and the art speaks for itself. But the art speaks for itself. And I don't know that all the time Euphoria. was not exile on mainstreet. I think that the Jewels a neate plotline specifically felt. like they took place different working environment than the rest of the show this season. and I think it was to its detriment. I want to talk to you a little bit about the fact that Um The show makes the choice not to do a bad news relay about Rue And not to do, which is a term we sometimes throw around in the show about's the Broad Church. It came from Broad Church, but it's basically each character finding out the same terrible news and having an Emy reel. An Emy reel for it U I thought that was cool I think you like we talked about, like you could make the argument that to Matdie and Lexi Ruse sort of crazy character from their past that is every once in a while will pop up on somebody's couch but that this wasn't a big shock But Levinson kind of went through a lot of plot bullshit to get Lexi to tell Maddie that Rue is working for the DA Yeah. And then Maddie told Alamo Only real acknowledgement of that seems to be when Ali says I'm here for Rue or R Rue Bennett sent me They get a reaction shot from Maddie, but it's not like a do you realize what happened here? Yeah, no, it doesn't land. I mean, I think this is I think you're articulating an example of what I trying to say botherered. like it's aeen It's like you're servicing Certain TV things Certain TV things, but then ultimately you kind of don't care about them. It makes sense to me and this I mean is a truly, I mean this is a compliment Why when Sam Esmail used to come on the show and he was praising Euphoria for its directorial vision and its aesthetic consistency 'cause like Sam, both Sams write and direct everything. U you see things on this show like you did with Mr. Robot or or Sam S. Mail's other things contemptuous of some TV tropes And it allows you to separate and make engage with the material and make observations like we're making about like Well may have felt sudden or brutal or cruel to dispatch Rue the way that The show did The show is actually telling you something about our engagement with protagonists and how we imbue hope into them when everything about their circumstance is telling you it's hopeless. you know, that's not that's not traditional TV. Traditional TV would walk up to that edge and then maybe like the Hs finale still give you all of the gushing emotion that is kind of your reward for watching the show. Eu he didn't do that. And it leaves us making references to the searchers and to Jewish prayers, you know, which is cool. We don't usually do that, but I think that the fact that it maybe was an ill fitting ill fitting clothing this season, that it was still in the skin of a serialized television show. Most people engage with it that way. and I think they were my sense is that people were either quite confused or quite pissed off Yeah by some of the storytelling choices. Yeah. I mean, the choice not to show Rue's mother receiving the news, the choice to not have anybody else finding out about this to see Storm Reed's characters sister finding out about this to I mean, I think that I think that that that feels like more like u That feels like more like something went wrong rather than a choice that was made. Yes, that said, Sam can go on a podcast and say you're misreading the show. It is ultimately about the ways in which addddicts in our lives are dead before the corner comes. Yes You can say that, and I've been carrying water for those arguments in this podcast can't say that as a coming over the top argument endnder to people who have engaged with a serialized television show with a certain set of expectations. They're not wrong Just because you can intellectually articulate why you did something does not invalidate the emotional This is what I' kind of trying to wal through in this conversation is like, how can I watch something that It fundamentally doesn't work on so many levels that I still feel like it worked for me emotionally and intellectually in some ways, you know? I guess it just made me think about things that I usually don't think about when I'm watching television and including What the fuck are they doing? Yeah are this. But it made me think about addiction in a lot of different ways and it made me think about the American West in ways that I hadn't really thought about in a while. and it made me think about Um forgiveness and why we go to the movies and all these things and I was like, this is good, man. like this is bigger than I thought it was going to be. was it meant more to me than I thought it was going to be. I also felt continually and I'm not saying this as a negative, but like a writer or director in a movie can have his or her one to two dozen hinge points. exclamation points to express like scenes, moments, vibes that are crucial to understanding what that vision is. And the connective tissue in ninety minutes or two hours isn't really as important as we often think it is unless it's, you know Why did Why did Palpatine suddenly return? Like if it's a personal story don't don't you shouldn't ever watch them as a Redditor. You watch them being carried along by someone trying to tell you something. Yeah. And I think where the limitations of the Autur model are evident in a show like Euphoria, are you can absolutely hang a constellation of these really bright powerful shining star moments that moved him and that tell the story that I think he clearly wanted to tell the connective tissue between them was often either convoluted, ignored, underbed. Yeah straight up Yeah, like previous episode, you finish with No, and just to say That's why people have writers's rooms I am not saying Eu fouria would be better with the writer room.'s just irrelevant to make that point. I'm saying and sometimes the conversation creep of a writer's room can overthink everything until it's just Mid, you know But like there's a moment in this episode that surprised me in ways that I was really excited by. Like I still don't understand and I never asked you why Laurie is the way she is and hangs out only with Nazis on a farm. I don't understand that. H season two kind of like She emerges in season two as like Weave like a local drug dealer that Fez is working with. I haven't rewatched season two, so some of this is just patching together memories, but U her character is more like The layer of drug culture you experience when like you are getting serious, you know? L all of a sudden, this is the person behind the person. Yeah. And like it's not just dime bags and eight balls. it's like there's somebody who is like, I'll give you this if you give me that. And like it she H and Alamo emerging as these two basasically satanic figures in the desert. I think I was almost it's almost disconnected from who Lauri was in the second season All that to say that like the moment when the guy who Rdeo ropes U Rue Harlely Yeah. early in the episode When the scene is built because we've seen all the same movies Sam Levinson has seen that we understand he's going to reach for his gun and go out in a blaze of glory and everything's going to pop off when he doesn't worked That was a moment of I took notice. Another apppparently the show is also about the healing power of dogs. Do like animals Yeah, exactly. the dog told him not to do. Yeah apparently. But just was like, okay. But like we are also at the point with the show where I was just like is that is a decision and a statement clearly has some significance to the creator and to the larger project. and then it goes off the rails again, you know, she has this dramatic hanging off like there's then it goes crazy to get to the next one of those. I mean, there's so much fucking. It's so funny because we're having this kind of like arrive full Hearts conversation about this episode. and like I said, Plastic surgery but Brazilian butt lift, Laori blows. pants out when she hangs herself Costomy bags, plastic surgery in Mexico Um Fentanyl, scorpions printed on it And Marshawn Lynch getting into a threesome before he gets his dip blown off. I mean, it is so likeike lip that coward. exploit it is explo exploitation core, you know So it's funny to also be like, Goddamn, like this brought me to tears. It is funny.s it's just like, I guess that's the high and low that he's working with Yeah. And it really, really, really pissed people off in some ways. but I even though you're the newcomer to this. Yeah, I just I wasn't mad Lexi or neate O Cassie didn't have like three more story beats at the expense of all the Wayne was Fe and Laurie stuff. I mean, like, I don't know why he did it necessarily or I think it could have been a little bit more evenly distributed, but Yeah, I mean, I didn't understand what I But I also, because I didn't know, n't I didn't feel I didn't want to spend time with really any of these other stories, but also that's not for me to say I'm coming in late and maybe that some of the scenes or some of the continuation of their stories was important for the viewers. But I also think like I keep looking as I never want to get his name wrong, but Aawai Akoi Akbaj, if he wasn't on this show in that role It would have been a catastrophe of historic proportions because the character is preposterous. somewhat intentionally preposterous go from Rue's death to have him giving a disquisition on the power of female anatomy and the role it's played in his life was Borderline insulting, honestly to what the show was and ridiculous digression or maybe not digression for what the character has been And you know, he came on the show like a cartoon and he went out like a cartoon, but there was an actor playing him. who brought real gravitas and swagger and charisma and humanity to it, which is mayaybe the best we can hope for. I think that you know, like I know this sounds crazy, but I feel like I feel like the show got away with even more this season. Yeah. by casting and Darryl Bick Gibson too, and part of Bishop who He brought some some gravity and soul to a character that was mostly reaction shots and then suddenly had exposition in the last fifteen minutes You know, uh it Do you understand why he turned on Alama. U, I think because of Maddie Did he seem particularly enamored with Maddie before Before she liked his dog Yeah, Okay. N not that I could tell. I mean, he was watching everything and I I thought was mostly focused on Ru and was the one who's like my spitey senses are tingling. Yes, not There's something up with this person who's now just all of a sudden empathy for this person. Yeah. Now That's the other I think ultimately the reaction is one of frustration because Maybe Darryl Brick Gibson will do an interview where he's like, o, we shot all these scenes where, know, Bishop's sister died of a drug overdose and it triggered him or whatever. And she's the one whose dog it was. And that's what I was playing, but we didn't show it or, you know, you get away with it because He's a cool looking actor who didid the fucking thing, scene to scene. Yeah. And then you get by on again with the sort of surface artifice that the show can also skate by on Either way, we'll never know the full answer and we have what we have. And I maybe the best way to put a bow on it is We're never getting anything like this again Like we're never getting anything like this again. So that's actually a pretty good segue here. I mean, I hope people enjoyed our rather unique perspective on this series this season and you know, it was it was a fun experiment. It was a fun experiment at the beginning This episode is brought to you by Street Easy. Here's the thing, Wanna be the grandparents who bolted to the Burbs or the cool relatives still living in NYC? the city that people come to to be at the center of everything. With twenty years at NYC know how, StreetEasy has the tools, agents, and guidance to make you a forever New Yorker too. Visit streeteasy dot com to buy a rent in NYC Street Easy is an assumed name of Zillow Inc, which has licenses in all fifty states hinning an end. I'll also just mention that not unlike when Succession in Barry ended on the same night, I believe Wasn't that the same night? I think that's right. I mean,ion you were kicking around Europe at the time. I was. Hcks also ended this weekend Um I'm going to just say one quick thing. I know you didn't get a chance to see this yet, but I know you've also read about it. so I'm not spoiling anything. Y But this will be spoilers for hacks, which we have not discussed Um It was U Really interesting watching this with an avowed fan of the show. My wife who I think was quite moved by the ending and was like was very satisfying. And I kind of have come in and out like As hacks has gone on, I have like kind of watch an episode, maybe miss two or three, watch an episode and feel like I'm on top of what's happening Um And in its own way, Hacks is not unlike what happened with Euphoria where it brings in an relelatively unexpected, though somewhat broadcast I plot turn where Deborah gets has cancer that her a mass has returned. and she's decided that It's going to be She's going to choose to have assisted suicide in Switzerland rather than go through treatment So her and Ava go on this sort of last lost weekend in Paris It's actually quite beautiful. Like, you know, obviously Paris is just incredibly cinematic and filmable. and just ran into Amanda Dobbins. She said the same thing. bet and then you know, they're going back and forth making jokes about dying and Deborah has the revelation that She in fact has more jokes to tell, more work to do, and that that is a substitute That is essentially like standing in for she also loves the people around her. And as's always the. learened to be a part of a community is going to go and try, you know clinical trials of new drugs for cancer. and You know, as I was watching it, I was feeling like I was getting a little chucked like exxplain that that is still important to us. That was no, that was the truly odious rise of Skywalker. Yeah and Rise of Skywalker, there's like, you basically spend five minutes thinking Chewubacca has been blown up and but somehow Chewbacca has returned somehow youubac has returned and I got really mad on a podcast where I was like, you can't manipulate people like this. likeike you prepare them for the possibility that characters people die. You take them through that experience and then you tell them actually psych and you get everything you hordard you're like a you're like Colin Robinson on what we do in the shadow Eamppire. You're an emotion vampire. Yeah. You have stolen people's feelings and then said JK. Yeah. So I it's interesting to look at the two in comparison. in some ways Haxs was in much more complete satisfying and watertight finale But it does Euphoria does what Hacks didn't do which is say Well, what if? What if what we are actually telling you is going to happen happened you know with the main character and how would people feel about that? I think hacks killing Deborah would be like quite controversial. so I understand why they didn't do that, but it was interesting to see them play with stakes that were so severe. Yes and then decide to back off in the last minute. I cannot criticize hacks for that decision from the perspective of someone who is just in advocating for the unspoken covenant between television creators and their audience I think that there is and this can be this can hamstring creators creatively over the long term. but I do think shows, you know, I've said this before teach you about themselves and tell you what they are even before they've reached the precipice of choosing an ending And the worst endings tend to be the ones that betray that core belief at the last moment in search of something extra or something else or in the case of some creators wanting to play a higher note than they've been allowed to play on the keyboard of their show for this many seasons H The reason I didn't stay with Hacks is nothing to do with the believed to be even from a distance, the consistent the consistency of hacks People like Phoebe and the millions of other people and Emmy voters who love it are like one of the reasons this show continues is because year in and year out Deborah and Ava are delivering and the tone of the show is delivering and the stakes of the show are consistent. That's really, really hard to do I tapped out when I realized that the show's most provocative ideas about Deborah being a monster, about show business being a gaping maw of whatever, was always going to be fixed with hugs and understanding before we run it back again. Sure. The constant breaking up and bring it back together, well done artfully was too much of a yoyo for me and reminded me of look I mean, Mike Sure is an executive producer of hacks, but it's not his show, you know, Paul Downs and Lucci Anne Yellow and Jen Statsky did did the damn and ran the shit out of an enormously successful beloved show But Mikehure is an executive producer of it, and there's a tendency that it reminded me of ultimately And he's made some of my favorite shows of all time. Parks and rck in the good place particularly unimpeachable except for the one little thing, which is what I'm trying to articulate, which is Every so often the softness and the gentleness and the schmaltziness and the optimism start to like overwhelm. The TV is too. Yeah. and that's not a sin. The shows are good because There is there is a Leslie Nope and there's a Ron Swanson. And when they start hugging, that's when it starts to get a little. Anyway. So that was my interaction that was my reaction with the thing, but like the reason why I walked away, but when you're describing that finale to me, I think I think I would have been incredibly frustrated by it. but frustrated for the same reasons I'd been frustrated for three seasons, and ultimately, that was the show. Its also, you know, its it's hard to watch when you're just like the bear is just clearly much funnier Exactly, Exactly. Where are the laughs In comparison. I was just going to go through HBO's like current slate right really quickly. Okay U so you've got I would say these are the sort of ones that are like kind of propping up, but like are the flagship sort of titles for HBO right now, which is White Lotus returning currently shooting in the South of France task, we know is coming back Kight of the Seven Kingdoms, critically, I believe commerally very successful new iteration of Game of Thrones. Yeah. I actually was going to reference it when we talk about Star City. Good. Gilded Age, the pit Roooster These are not all shows that we love or talk about necessarily, but shows that I think are doing well for HBO error in in current production And obviously, I guess d in prophecy, which we're doing three coming and I wasm just laughing. It's like guess obviously. Well,be want back and it's a Dune show. so I'm kind of like it it bears mentioning, Then there are the shows that are winding down or ending. Iustry, Howouses the Dragon, last of us, Last of us still may be on the air for A couple more years, but I think our They're probably like thinking of ways to start bring the ship back home I think they said F, didnn't they? They did. I dont I don't know how long that's going to take, but And then you know, halfman and DTF We didn't talk about half Man, DTF we talked about Briefly, but those seem like one and dones I'm surprised I mean, I don't know, I don't have insider knowledge on this. And I know it wasn't for us and it made people quite frustrated. But It does seem like DTF was a success ratings wise and internally. Yes. And so I have no idea about their HBO's relationship with Stehven Conrad or Stephen Conrad's desire to do anything. But like you could do DTF D Moin could be white loaded. Sure, orr you could do another Steephven Conrad show, which I think is what I would like to see And then they have Lanterns and House of the Dragon on the way imminently and Harry Potter obviously at Christmas time It's an interesting moment because you know, like I think we have Do you want me to talk about if Peves is in it If peeves, who's ultter guysu? It wasn't in the movies So that's two ways you haven't ever encountered this character. Go on done state of HBO conversations before I think A lot of the slate looks very strong. It really doesn't matter because it's can't be repeated enough. they have been purchased by Paramount. You also, I think left out the most interesting returning show on the HBO network set in Delaware County. Task force. I said task. you said task Yeah blanking out. We're having a problem, not you and I, but like You know, when I was doing the buried alive thing when last last episode and I was like Hey everybody, like tell me what you think the best buried alive, Like mine's definitely kill Bill And I got ten million emails that were just like Beatrix kiddo from Kill Bill. and I'm like, I know I said that. Yeah. unless I was having a stroke and didn't say that, but Maybe I'm not only a few of the em Distinctive enough podcaster. Yeah. It's fine. Anyway, I just thought I would mention that these two shows are ending. Euphoria, which obviously was an intermittent presence in HBO's lineup and which has been a very consistent presence Well well, Max has its two pits adjacent series coming. There's there's the police show. Is that Catalina Island? No What is that? Oh is that the family show? No, that's the one about a guy, a sheriff on Catalina Is it about him policing the Catalina wine mixer? I hope so No, there's the Milo Ventemilia S show. Yeah, there's a cop show. And then there also there's a family drama that's led by. Ray Romano. ye I guess not Like we we just kind of did our best to find the positive and euphoria. So I don't want to do any more, what's the term the kids use glazing I do think What you describe is actually a best case scenario. I think in terms of industry position of a network that has a very, very steady floor. Yes. And it's a very different floor than HPO had ten years ago or certainly twenty years ago in the sense that it is built on more mainstream facing stuff that works like Game of Thron stuff and DC stuff and u Bill Lawrence comedy rooooster and then also all of this broadcast minded All this things shacks The optimus case for that is Paramount or whomeever in the end, but probably paramount is buying something prettyty solid. Yeah and that there is room to iterate on top of it. and there's a room for Casey to say to all of the elephants pererhaps in some sort of like, you remember when unrighteous gemstones when the gemstonone siblings would receive people sitting on their three thrones, I imagine that's how the Elephants do it. That's what that's what it'll be like, where it's like Larry Ellison and the young Ellison. Meghgan? No not Megan. What's our guy? David, David Ellison Yeah. and then maybe like Scott Bescent or whatever. being like actually, it's a good sign for the economy that everyone's poor And anyway, case it could be like, there's actually room here for me to take a little money off the top for like three more somebody somewheres or a bigger artistic splashure. Um, But do you feel like it's an end of an err in a different way? No, I mean, I think it's an end of an eror because the corporate machinations. I don't. I think I think if anything The end of succession in Barry should show us that we shouldn't do this kind of like what's HBO going to do now that hax is gone. It's like, I think they'll f We just did it. I know. You think we shouldn't do the things we just did? No, I think that the reason to be like, I wonder what's going to happen next for HBO is because they are going to be part of a different corporate parent not because they they continuously You know, and they morph, they they change. There's There's always going to be these like HBO twenty twenty seven is not going to look like HBO twenty twenty one Right You know, we always wind up kind of coming back home. Did you mention Harry Potter in the list or? I did, man. Yeah. Is that where Petatrick Peveses Yeah. Yeah Peves are beeves Wre you doing the arrest of development of it? Beads Bees Bees man. Let's talk about a show before we get out of here that I fucking love. And I did I knew I was going to like it. I didn't think I was going to be blown away by it the way I was. We're talking about Star City. This is a I guess it's a spinoff. There are characters in Star City that appear in for All Mkind. They played by different actors, I think. Different actors. It's set in the sixties in Russia, then the Soviet Union. This comes from Matt Walpert, Ben Daviti and Ronald Moore who. are also in charge of for mankind. For all mankind, though I believe Wilpton Naviti basically ont of that. Yes. They are the showrunners of both of these proms And I'm going to say this and I don't really have a way of making this statement But it's how I feel. Okay Is this a The Andor of for all mankind Star Wars. Wow Um Okay S They chhernobyled this. This is It's a hundred it's rare to see a project of such deep, deep influence but also kind of get away with it. Yeah. So it is Russian characters speaking in English accents portrayed by English speaking performers for the most part, I believe It stars Rese Eiffens as the chief designer of the Soviet space program Anna Maxwell Martin as Ludmilla Riscoova, a KGB intelligence officer who oversees security of that space program And then it's got a bunch of performers that I'm either Now fans of or never seen before. U So we have Agnes O'Casey playing Arena who will turn up on for all mankind eventually And she is Roscoova's new protege at the KGB. Oh, so this character is on The reason it's a different actor is because it's an older version of the character on For. Apparently I think that they showed up on she shows up in season four Alice Englert, who plays Anastasia Belakkova, the first woman in space Um, first one on the moon, Dg Sorry on the moon. Yeah. Adam Ngatis and Sy McLaodud, they play Valia and Sasha respectively who to And Adam we know because he was one of the fire fire buddies on Chernobyl. That's right. And there are some Chernobyl faces on this show. The I mean, this is not reallyally like a piece of cultural criticism. I like watching trained English, Irish, Welsh and otherwise actors imbuing scripts with just incredibly lived in performances immediately. This feels like a seventies conspiracy thriller with A sci fi a plausible realistic sci fi bent. It's an alternative history of the space race for all mankind is told from the U.S. perspective, this is told from the Soviet perspective And what you get in the first episode is essentially Ruscova is leading a mole hunt inside of the St program Star city Star City U And when the prospective first woman on the moon is thought to be a spy for the Americans. She's replaced by Anastasia Belakova played by Angler and because it's thought that Anastasia would be more cliant to the party's needs Um, And meanwhile, so that whole like going up to the moon with a woman is happening. And it's quite tense and well shot and it is gorgeous. Nick Murphy directed this first two batch two episode batch that went up U And then the second episode, which I don't want to get too far into because you haven't had a chance to see it, is about Anastasia is Dory in promo tour And u the ways in which they are using her to sort of as a propaganda piece deeepening the mole hunt and areas u pulled into the dark side of security work for the KGB. I don't know if there is a light side of security work for the KGB. Yeah, sort of the light Who's on? Who's like the Luke Skywalker of the KGB? I guess we're gonna to find out. The show is fucking awesome. uses u in much the same way Chernobyl does the brutalest decaying teextures Of Lithuania. They shot in Lithuania? Hell, yeah. Shot in Lithuania to just give everything this kind of like light cigarettte smoked on moldy King, the lights don't always work And yet at the same time you know, you're watching U this moment of great optimism and idealism and to see it sort of broadcast in this different way and both two different ways. One, if the Soviets made it to the moon first, but two in this way in which like Every victory is also a that needs to be controlled.es, a thing that needs to be interrogated, a thing that needs to be buttoned up, whereas On the US. side, everything is sort of this expression of a new kind of American exceptionalism and American imperialism. I mean, it's beautifully characterized in the scene in which the chief designer is rewarded for his Absolutely outrageous victory, but it's in an empty room and you have to give the medal back. Yeah Um Sprigs is the name of the production designer who previously worked on sex education, which is a very different palette. Yeah. So Bravo, production designers, unsung heroes of all television. So for as much as this is, first of all, I just want to get your general thoughts on the episode you watched. Well, I kind of want I loved it And I can't wait to watch more. it's This may seem counterintuitive, but my reference point for watching the show was actually Spider noir, which we talked about last week, which is to say I no longer understand what gets green lit and what doesn't. Nothing makes sense to me anymore For all mankind, which is a sturdy show in terms of its, I believe, its performance and the engagement that it gets for Apple is not a hit show, I think, by any metric, even within Apple's own, you, not many people have Apple despite its ubiquity and its unlimited budgets So the fact that that series is getting a Russian centered spinoff Back in the sixties, in many ways, telling the B side to a story that was the story of the first season of for all mankind, which was eight years ago He's fucking crazy. Like spinoffs spinoffs in their best case don't also retain the full audience of the mothership. withith Riphons and Anal Maxwell Martin leading it. leadading it and without any attempt to make this x sex is playing like this guy. You know what I mean? It's like, they didn't know. Yeah. there seems to be an understanding that this is going to be mostly an artistic frankly project. in the shadow of a show that isn't hasn't set the world on fire. Now maybe This will be a wonderful outcome for everyone where we felt about the first episode or two episodes will be borne out by the rest of it, and then it'll have a sudden surge and may you know become incredibly popular in its own right and we'll do our best to make that happen. But It's wild to me. is it is it and Secondarily, I think we should say for people listening you do not need to watchatch for all mankind, I think, to engage two and a hal seasons for all. I watched the first two seasons. I was talking to my daughters about it on the way to school because they asked what we were talking about on the podcast, and then they asked me to tell them everything that happened at the end of Euphoria. How did you do that? I mostly focused on the laxatives that Wayne took because that kind of humor is always sells, especially on the way to school. Okay The premise for all mankind remains And so cool and so compelling and such a great use of television to be like, No, let's do this and let's really, really try it Um I found it too ambitious and I just didn't enjoy the watching of it as much as I admired it Um I don't think you need to have watched it to watch this or to appreciate it. I just spentalf this episode being like, How are we getting this? This is wild Um But I should not question it. I'm glad they're spending their money on this. The There was something kind of like I don't mean this is a blanket criticism of a show that I haven't watched in a couple of seasons. I've kept up with what's kind of happening on all mankind. So for all Mkind for I understand, every season is a decade leap forward into this in nineties, I think now. or into the two thousands and now there is a full colony on March. Yes. becausecause the idea of for all mankind the fundamental like rupture in our space and time is that the Russians won, which is what we see happen in the opening moments, beautifully and brilliantly pilots are hard. The opening moments of the show are so excellent at bringing you into everything that this show is going to be about and also making you understand something if you are a fan of the other show that you're going to be seeing it from the other side. And it's like the paranoia and terror that then mixes with a moment of triumph and pride is is really, really excell And the domestic versus the just a completely different perspective on it. It's so, so, so well done But that the idea that in for all mankind, this loss of the space race led to an American obsession of catching up, which led to a completely transformed second half of the century into the new century in which space is everything. Y, as opposed to something we did and we won and we moved on from there are these character moments and you know what I want you to watch the second one and then we could talk about it in more detail. But what I will say is that I'm sure if I did like a forensic scouring of what's happening on for all mankind. I could come up with like a pretty solid synopsis of what's going to happen on Star City There are these character beats that I find enchanting Echanting in a way that like kind of reminds me of the Battle star, Ronald Moores Battlear Galactica of like, you start out and you think this is going to be the mechanic. I get it. And you're like, Ohh my God, I had no idea like this is where we were going to wind up. and even Some of the cosmonauts are being given character depth that you just didn't you know, you would not necessarily need to imbue the seventh guy on the show with this like This is what I want And But this is who I am and this is the frustration that comes along with it It's it's really, really top notch TV and I'm really excited to keep watching it. I think you're going to adore the second episode even more Oh, I think so. U and If I had a critique of for all mankind, even though I, you know, I like Kennaman as a performer. I like a lot of the people who are on it There was a certain kind of like It's not like a falseness. There was like I was always aware that I was watching people on a TV show. and it felt like dress up And this doesn't, even though there is a complete artifice to the fact that all of these people are Russians speaking English. The least generous take on that is that they found the Chernobyl filter that works. It's a filter on the show, the way they speak accented English as Russian, the way Russian sounds in English, you know, referring to people as chief designer, which actually is more common in Russian than it would be in English. Um We under we speak this fictional language now. Yes. and they're doing a great job of doing a show in that language. It's not Um We got a couple things on the cast. a couple small notes. Sure. One, happy to see Elliot Salt. She plays the other listening person. rememember she was on slow horses in like two seasons ago U Damn, that's a this lady recognized her immediately for that. loveo seeing these people's of good goodood work. Yeah I'm paying close attention. partartly because as you know, I'm constantly on Nepo Watch. everver since we started this podcast and I've looked across that you, you know, it's never to watch And I stand on the shoulder of giants. I mean Who amongs? I mean, what other critics were willing to shit on Godfather too, You know, in a way like imagine he would have killed on a podcast Um So I think we have to talk about the fact that Alice Englert is clelearly You have to defend this. No. I don't fininch actually fun. No. She is the daughter of Jane Campion, who's the great director. She was in Top of the Lake, her mom's TV show. She's awesome. I don't actually have a take on this. It was just funny to see that. And as it was funny to see that Toni Mirova, who's one of the cosmonauts wife, who's keeping up a little something on the side, is Andy Cirkcus's daughter. I did not know that. Yeah H name being Ruby Circus didn't give it away. The character who I think is has been the The one that has blossomed for me the most is Alice Englertz asia. She is the Nepo thing is a joke, especially when we're talking about a dedicatedt artistic person like Jane Campion and her family, like I'm not really worried about the benefits of the leg up she got in the Kiwi film industry. but, um It's when she's like at auditions they're like top of the lake. must be nice. No No it' like the piano, huh W' your mom show you that? Yeah. Um, no, I think that as an actor She is surprising in her presentation, in her line readings and what she brings to it. And this is just through one episode that like you notice. Yeah. and that's especially noteworthy casting, I think, in a show in which the aesthetic is primary that everything is kind of brrutal and grreay and there's snow and you can't do pops of color to distingct o well, that character wears a saucy scarf That's telling us something. No they can't do that. So casting becomes even more important. Yeah. And the contrast that the show does between her and the cosmonaut that she replaces within the episode Epertly done. Yes. We will continue to talk about this. The third episode goes up on Friday, so maybe Maybe we'll talk a little bit about episode two on Thursday, but I think we'll probably consistently chat about this show throughout its season. if I had to guess Yeah. and then we're going to hit Maximum pleasure. We're gonna to stay in the apple. Appless just got us We do nothing but serve O big brother. Tame Apple. Yeah, so Widows Bay on Thursday, Top Chef on Thursday, maybe a little bit more Star city Chris Kristen said this is her favorite episode of Top Cf this season Okay, didid you know that? I did not know that That's good to know. I also heard This is just now we're just into Reddit stuff, but like a PA who worked on the show said said that the edit actually helpelp Seeker because it was much worse The edit of how of his behavior during the jury or at the edit of like his cooking? No, no, the jury, like his his said it crashed out and that they were like, let's be decent about this Release the seeker cut Okay that's my h. Seeker stands, hit us up about your man Tell us. just tell us about what it's like eating melted chicken on.. Thank you for watching Euphoria with me. Thank you for podcasting with me today. Thank you for inviting me. We're gonna be back on Thursday and everybody have a good week