Future of the Restaurant Industry

This summer, fan dool is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uhuh Vollies? Y, Petters. Every goal is worth more on fan du. So let there be goals. New customersk get up to one thousand dollars in bet reset tokens when you bet five dollars five daily. Total one plus and present in select states often required, Refund issed is n not withdrawal bonus bets that expire seven days after receivt. M minimum five dollarars wage are required for five consecutive days. Max refund two hundred dollars per day. restestrictions apply including token expiration, seatful terms at fan dool dot comot slash sportsbook Gambling problem called one eight hundred Gambler or one hundred my Ret. Hey Babes, it's Paris Hilton. So I was checking my points balance in the Hilton Honors app the other day. and yeah, I've got about a billion, which feels excessive. Even for me. Just kidding, you can never have too many Hilton Honors points. And I want to do something iconic this summer, so I'm giving away all my Paris points. Just find somewhere you've always wanted to stay, then go to my socials or Hilton's and tell me about it Just make sure you're a Hilton Honors member, and I might be sending you Paris points because when you want points that make your summer even hotter, it matters where you stay Hello and welcome to the Watch. My name is Andy Greenwald. I have no official presignation here. Chris Ryan is a surprise surprise traveling this great country of ours. I think he's calling it a listening tour. He hasn't really announced anything yet, but he is connecting with voters in the Midwest. Very happy to have you here. We have a good show today. It is not just going to be me speaking directly to you in camera, I promise. I'm going to talk for a few minutes. Chris is going to join me somehow through the Magic of T Travel, AK. we recorded it earlier this week to talk about this penultimate episode of Widows Bay which I think is are both of our favorite show of the year And then at the end of the podcast, I will be joined for my yearly and I don't take it for granted, my yearly conversation with the greatreat Gail Simmons, judge executive producer of Top Chef That conversation hasn't happened yet. So again, miracle of podcast time travel. but'm Imagine it's going to be a good one. And we will talk about fully spoiling the just concluded season twenty three in Carolinas So housekeeping something I am famously bad at. You can email us the watch at sppotify. comot sayay whatever you want. I do not have access to that email, nor do I want it. You can also of course, find us on Instagram at the watch. o, I always get it wrong. It's the watch watch pod underscore underscore Yeah classic. Yeah. Again, the watch pod was taken by a account that reviews watches ee, okay, that does seem inevitable to me Do you think we get any crossover with the watch community? I don't personally wear one. I think we should try to get a sponsorship going. A little rollly Do you think we can get a Rolex subscription guy? This is put it out there, you never know. Very, very optimistic. While we are on the subject of house cleaning, one small thing, you guys know this about Chris again, and this is what makes him an authentic candidate almost authentic enough to run for Senate in Maine. He does not like to engage with the replies the reply guys. He's just like the take is clean The delivery is pure. We move on to the next one. I am not that impervious and When I get something wrong, I do like to admit it. So two things Last week, I believe Chris had a really fun game where he pitched the idea that we would quote unquote star city other television shows, which is to say that we would Spontaneously, I'm sorry. No, he did it as his homework. I spontaneously did it U. alternate versions slash spinoffs of beloved TV shows that looked at things from the other perspective I was very, very pleased with my final suggestion, which was a show set in the Madmen Universe based on the quote other Jewish firm that Rachel, the department store error and the pilot should have been seeking business from I didn't I fumbled basically. I thought it was a good idea and I fumbled the ball at the one yard line long time watch listener Jonathan zoomed in to say, Mad Mench was right there. was right there waiting for me. And I do feel like that's just a bad look for me and I will continue to get better every day Second thing, William B. Davis, the Canadian actor who plays the cigarette smmoking Man on the X files, the show we talked about last week, and frankly, I'm ready to talk about almost any time St alive Still alive, eighty eight years young. I I buried the man last week, guys. I'm really sorry. I conflated The actor with the man who smoked cigarettes on television for a decade. So you understand my error, but I do apologize to Mr. Davis. I hope he's thriving today I also hope that he's watching The NBA finals. I don't know if anyone else in this room has been watching, but The N game last night was like the best TV I've seen this year. Kai don't clip that because our widows B content is just going wild right now. And I don't ever want to be known to someone who's inconsistent in his fandom. but That was an incredible incredible television. Last few things of notes to go through. Slow Horses returns season six, september sixteenth of this year This is really one of the only constants in this madhouse that we call contemporary television and entertainment Kind of love the flex here This is all they released. Apple said that it was coming back, but we all knew it was coming back. This show puts a trailer for the next season at the end of the previous season's finale see the pit do that Um This is their plot synopsis for their sixth season returning show. The slow horses are on the run as Diana Taverner embroils them all in a fatally high stakes game of retaliation and revenge, too which I add Is the sllow horse's PR person the easiest cushiest job in Hollywood literally cut and paste Cut and past has there been a season of slow horses that could not apply to you U No, I've never really watched slow horses, but I that that summary just kind of gave me the gist of it. I think isn't that what they do every season? Yeah, I mean, I think maybe the key is that they're all on the run. Sometimes they amble. they're slow. Right. Sometimes they walk, sometimes they stumble. but they are always embroiled in a fatally high stakes game of retaliation and revenge. So businessus as usual. and people will tune in Two And again, I don't know how you feel about this Kaya, but A very exciting new show announcement, at least as far as I'm concerned this week or since our last recording. Tucci in Great Britain Oh Tucci in Great Britain.. Now again. Like the sllow hororses PR blur, it's all right there in the title U we rarely talk because of Chris's editorial Iron fist, we rarely talk about the perverse pleasures of Tucci in Italy or his previous show, which was just like Tucci touches them all or whatever it was called, but it was basically the same thing. Wow, so the title is really tucci in Great Britain. The title Oh you thought I was kidding. No, yeah, I thought. No. No, no, no. it is called Tucci in Great Britain And longt timee two cheds know that Stanley has lived in London. for quite some time with his wife Felicity Blunt, sister of Emily Blunt And I really, really enjoy his Sour pus social media content where he just sort of idly chops things and throws them in incredibly expensive pans in his incredibly expensive and beautiful kitchen in London and kind of complains about the weather and as someone who, not to the degree that Stanley Tucci lives in Great Britain, but someone who has spent time there I am Ready. for Stanley Tucci to show the world about the great food tradition of a country that is unfairly maligned I'm nodding vigorously. So do K, do you like Tucci in Italy or do you just like Tucci Ca Italy? Like you're fine with the. Yeah I never sat down and watched an episode of Tucci in Italy, but I love Stanley Tucci's Instagram content.. And I'm in support of all things, Tci. And I thought he was great and Delv Wars Prda too Which by the way, I think maybe is on streaming already. Sure. So now can I can watch it. My kids raced me to the box Raced me to the multiplex to see it The other thing about the Tucci story that I love is I am all for and have long been all for celebrities doing lifestyle boondogles. I still mourn do you remember the show The Wine showh with Matthew Reese and Matthew Good where two of the most charming British actors alive just convinced major corporations to pay for them to drink wine. Was that his boat involved in that In the sense that that's another boondogle. I don't remember if his boat actually played a role. becausecause the show, I think they were traversing wine regions in Europe It sounds like a great gig if you can get paid to do it. What a charming guy. Anyway, unrelated, but I'm happy when people use their powers for selfishness in addition to good. U lastast thing. Okaykay. so Ki I don't mean put you on the spot here and you are off camera, which I apologize for. but You are our youth correspondent And I wondered if you had ever heard of a phenomenon called the ammazing Digital circus. No. Okay, so maybe some people, some Daddingtonss and Momingtononss are familiar with this, but the amazing digital circus is a web series that premiered on YouTube in twenty twenty three and then got upstreamed to Netflix. And I am only tangentially aware of it and maybe even mentioned it in passing ones because like with many of these things, my children especially my younger daughter got really into it. And What I would see as I walk past was essentially a screensaver nightmare because it is to my eyes, like extremely intense and kind of ugly. I don't know if that's partially the point, but basically it is a veryer, very noisy visually and otherwise web series about humans are human consciousnesses that are wake up trapped in this amazing digital circus like Hellscape where they are in these bodies sold on t shirts and a hot topic now. L genuinely, like one person is a ragdll named Ragatha and one person is a crazy purple bunny named Jacks, and they have these adventures that are also kind of torture being led by a ring leadader named Caine, who is a like talking what do you called it? he's basically dentures with eyeballs in his mouth. It was nine episodes Fathom Entertainment released the final episode, much awaighted final episode into movie theaters, paired with the eighth episode. And I think people are like, oh, that's nice. L the fandom will show up, mayaybe it'll make ten million dollars. It made twenty six million dollars in the box office for something that's going to be on Netflix, I think next week Um, and I went to the theater And I saw it. And I can't lie to you. There was a moment when And I got the popcorn and I went over to the bar in the Americana movie Theater called Mcs With your children Okay, thank you for asking that onene hundred percent with my children. Okay great O excitedly, one grudgingly. Great. I took a picture of my children before the movie started and one child was wearing a jack sweatshirt excitedly, and my other child looked like the unibomber. Okay. Be she had sunglasses on and was texting furiously and really was only there for the junior mints. But I can't lie. There was a moment when I was in theater being like, I love the old The old multiplex, can't wait to see a movie? Oh right, I'm going to be seeing eighty minutes of YouTube animation. Right. But I have to say, I was shocked by this thing and not in a bad way. I was pretty riveted. This is not me talking about euphoria exactly, but I can't say that I felt particularly lost having missed the first seven installments of the amazing digital circus But what I was really struck by and I'm trying your question is very valid Kaya because I'm trying to get u the big picture Sean Fenasy to see this. Okay. And he asked if he could bring his much younger child to it and I assured him he could not. does create the possibility there are a lot of swears, in't it? It does create the possibility of maybe it's already happened, of Sean hopefully not wearing a trench coat going to see this movie alone But what was crazy about it, is that it is yes, it is incredibly noisy. It is incredibly in your face and it's pulling these references from like extreme like TikTok fan edits slash Looney Tunes cartoons But it was also simultaneously the single most earnest and emo piece of content that I have seen in quite some time.. Almost like punch you in the stomach with its sincerity and intensity. And I did a little digging into it and it does make sense. This shows the brainchild of a thirty one year old Um content creator, animator, composer goes by the name of gooseworks And is extremely gamer coded, but it is also extremely That's the word I would use. Well it's gamer coded, it's incredibly queer friendly, and it's very p therapy. And the energy of it honestly reminded me of when I was interviewing dashboard conffessional fans in two thousand two, except now there is no more amateurism about it. Now all of the energy about like I've been rejected by society and it's very hard for me to connect, but it's all I want to do is connect, but nothing will ever accept me But with the professalism of I will pour all of this into something that is going to make the Fathom Entertertainment Company untold Millions on a weekend in June Fascinating content. This is my report from Youth Island. Wh And where are we on the scale of the kids are all right after watching this. Thank you for asking that question too, because I actually, I mean, my younger daughter was pre apologizing. That's nice. She was also very worried going in because Jack's, the raabbbit is her favorite character, and she was pretty scared that he was going to abstract because just to give you guys the full story about what happens here The longer you are in this digital hellscape, the more unhinged you become from who you were or who you believe yourself to have been and reality. And at a certain point, some of the previous characters, including a clown and I believe a bear, abstracted, which means they turn into like weird nightmare monsters with rainbow eyes and they they're lost. They've lost themselves. So she was worried Jax was going to abstract I won't spoil I will say that we get Jackax's backstory, which is So dark So dark and involves pushing his mother and becoming unhoused And Th then Pomney, who is kind of the heroine travels through his psyche And there are shades of inside out and there's also shades of severance. And it's this absolute blender of insanity. And I'm really glad Chris is you know pressing the flesh with the voters because He would not care for this. No. Chris would have cut you off five minutes ago. How would Chris have been able to segue from this into take on the Lionus seeason three trailer. I don't even think he would have segued. I think he would have just said, and now lionist. Can I ask you guys a question since he's not here? Yeah. Does he have a mute button for me No I mean Do he have access to that? am I'm the only one with access to it, but I can cut your mic at any time. Thank you, Kaya. On that note having delved into the world of culture that was frankly open in a little bit terrifying but you that' actually not true, kindind of ultimately wholesome. We should probably get into some more wholesome content So to recap Chris and I are going to Chris is going to magically appear. I have a button that can do that We're going to talk about Widows Bay penalultimate episode episode nine emmergency shelter. All spoilers for that. Obviously, the episode premiered the other day And then straight out of that conversation, we will go into my interview with Gaille Simmons Discussing, spoiling topop chehef season twenty three. I look forward to you enjoying both of those things This episode is brought to you by Fandouual Predicts. You can predict the summer soccer showcase action all the way to the final match with Fanduual Predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your twenty five dollars bonus. fromrom the opening game to the final whistle, stay locked in with every pass, every goal and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. sign up now for your twenty five dollars bonus on Fandual predicts. goo to fandoule dot com slash predicts to sign up That's fandal. com slash predicts to get your twenty five dollars bonus disclaimer Offered by Fandal Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commommission merchant, eighteen and over restrictions apply. see terms at fandl dot com slash predict slash bonus dash offer dash terms Here we are Andy You have presumably done the beginning of this show. We are dressed suspiciously like we were on Monday. And it's laundry week. We are here to talk about the penultimate episode of seeason one of Widows Bay. This one is called Eergency Shelter. Herea Mari is back behind the camera for these last two episodes Tom, Paticia Wick and Rosemary try to find out the lineage of Richard Warren as a storm shuts down the island seending everyone into shelters. everyveryone Bar one very important resident Um I want to talk to you about A pretty significant tonal shift occur in this episode. I'm glad I thought you were talking to me about accountability dictated exactly what was going to happen and I was I got you eighty percent of the way there. Did you was wrong. Wh did you do that? Last week Yeah, two weeks no, two weeks ago and I was like, this is what's onene of the children escaped from the boat and sw went back and had a child. you were very good about that. But I was wrong Ab who the seed was. Yeah. You were worried it was Evan I wasn't worried. I was enthused. Okay. But yes, I thought it was. Turns out it's not Evan. It's Ruth, the beloved Y comical assistant who only works half days. Um, sorry, but toonal shift tootal shift in this series. So we haveve talked about the horror comedy balance that Katie Dipple and her team has struck this the season. it's been an. Honestly, like one of the delights of TV over the last couple of years to watch them try of figure out How to mix funny with sccary and then jump from sub genenre to sub genenre and homage to homage from episode to episode This one fellt a little bit more like a moral quandary, you know, I guess. This is basically like the the what is it the trolley car thing where it's like, do you save one person do you kill one person to save many? Yeah. And on top S guys watch the good place. I think also there's a lot of a lot of like What would be Real world consequences and real world tensions. Yeah of of the show have kind of come to a head. you're trying to get off the island being like, I'm not a comic relief character. I'm actually here to liberate this place from hundreds of years of damnation Um, Tom's kind of arriving at this moment where, you know, he obviously cares about his son and he cares about like the future of the island, but eventually is like kind of like we need to do what needs to be done. And Patricia moving into more of a like voice of reason character. So what did you think of of this episode in terms of its tonal shift I want to be very clear about what I'm about to say because I'm going to immediately follow up not going to leave it alone This is the weakest episode of Widows Bay of the season And I love it for that I say the weakest because this is the first episode that felt like connective tissue This is the first episode that locked into what appears to be the the rest of the ride L that moment when you are an amusement park or something and you're sitting in the weird little car on Mr. Toad's wild ride or whatever and it brings you right to the precipice of something and then you feel the old machinery click and suddenly you're turning left because that's where you're going next. Yeah. That's what happened in this episode as it went from to your point being about everything that's happened in the past, everything that could happen in such a wildly hijinkxy horror filled island, everything that could happen when you have a writer's room led by Katie Dipold who are completely Um you know hysterical creative frenzy about all their shared references in their like the bad parties they went to and also the bad horror movies they've seen their entire lives and even some of the good ones And now it's going to be about something And it's a tension that we talk about constantly when we talk about many different types of shows It's really the most fun creatively making this show and often watching it is the we're just throwing stuff at the wall and we're seeing what we can get away with But eventually when you're ending, I don't mean the series is ending, but you are ending a season and you are paying the tax on the decision to make it serialized in a different way. You gott to choose. You got to be about something And what I loved about an episode that I am calling the weakest of the season was that even within that hard pivot, There was room for Insane likeike when u Dale Takey's character. Roseary, Rosemary When Rosemary goes through the genealogy chart. Dead baby, dead baby dead, baby. Yeah. Dead baby dead, baby, dead baby, lesbian dead baby. And then Patricia says Please stop saying that. And she says, Oh, I'm not allowed to say that anymore. And she says not like that. And she goes fine. And then she circles the next generation and says retards all of them Yeah. This is a show. What was there' one character was like the like something hortense. What was the adject like that person had like Oh it was like disappointing hortense or hortense I didn't note that down This is a show that is so ly in its bag and so comfortable with itself that it can carve out space for broad physical comedy like Tom's Temper tantrum in which a picture falls on him and then no one Rer says, don't save him. It was funny. The total shift for me is that it was not a funny episode, but I laughed hardest Maybe if the entire season was the two times I have left the hardest season Fucking Matthew Rese battling that paintinges, having it nearly bisect him. And then when he's like, can he help me? like they're like, stand back. He could have a spiral cord in. And then Rosemary throws out her own back trying to help him before strong. And then the other bit is his thing with the lighthouse guy. It's perfect. It's like this is a joke that could travel through time Like you could explain the setup of the lighthouse generator joke to the founding fathers of this island. They' be like that's pretty funny. be like like we're living in hell, but I have to give it to you. That's a good one. Yeah. The joke being that the radio to the old lighthouse keeper, who we never really see Garret We Tom thinks he's not being heard about needing the power generator starter from the lighthouse. So he drives through perilous storm conditions to get there, only for Garret to wave at him from where he just came. Yes. And then it turns out Garret's doing this all on a bicycle and is like, I'll come back to you. and he's like, no, wait, he has to drive back. There's so many like little funny psych gags in this episode but at the same time, I felt like maybe it's the conversation between Wick Tom and Patricia, which is played With no laughs whatsoever. Yeah much. you know, and and the fact that's very sober. you know We've we've got A lot of like the sort of like lore parts of the story have now activated, you know, like and now we are really, truly watching this This island, you know, come under the The under attack really by by a demonic storm The interesting thing to me also is that like, you know, when I started this episode and it said it was thirty one minutes I was like, well, this is either going to be one of the great thirty one minutes of my life or it's what I think it is, which is essentially part one of the finale. That's right. That's what it was. And because it ends quite Oh, here we go. And if they had put like this up as a one hour finale and it's a nine episode season. I think I would have been deeply satisfied, but It just so happens that they that they extended it. Um What were some of the other things that jumped out of you about this episode aside from the death of our favorite mushroom dealer an I mean, it's a bummer Yeah. Swimming's incredible. I hope they find him in a tree, you know? Yeah, I was thinking that too. like when they made the show and they hired Chris Fleumming to play this one small part, they were probably like, man, this guy's great Who can we in the Simpsons esque Sringfield cast of characters that we've already created who can we sacrifice to the vengeful tornado gods? He was a pretty funny option, especially because he wouldn't leave his socks because he said he needed them Yeah Um, but to your point, like, I need these the The moment when they made the show essentially in a bubble of their own enthusiasm and good spirits and creativity versus now when people genuinely, not just us love it I don't know if they would make the same decision. Like let's burn this ascendant comedian's funny side character. That's the freedom of what's to come. And part of the fun of watching the show has always been watching it for purely what it is, then also admiring the construction behind it. And part of the construction behind it that I'm watching now is What is their plan to resolve the show because I one hundred percent believe that Katie and Hiro took nothing for granted and will resolve aspects of the story. L does it end with Tom and Evan at a Red Sox game? Maybe? Um There are legs here and there's somewhere else for this to go. So the question is whats Is this going to be the only season of the show? No I don't have insider knowledge, but I I don'tither but I wonder if they had known what a sensation it would become if they would have had this storm hitting in the end of the first season. and I think they would in the sense that she knows, I mean I think we're going gonna to get a chance to talk to her about it. but like And it's not fair to reduce anyone to their influences. But it's interesting watching this as such an incredibly successful distillation of serialized storytelling and episodic storytelling from someone who is a veteran of Parks and At recreation, which was so good at managing the line between the two who then went on to write movies and knowing that you got a Leave it all on the table and tell your full story. Sure then there's the third piece. what do you hold ono? Where do you go next? And I was thinking about This show is just At this point, seemingly effortless ability to transition between what you were saying, serious emotional reckonings between the characters who are one hundred percent the same characters they've been in every episode Tatricia, the one who's sing there being concerned or wanting to protect Tom or wanting to move things along is the same woman who just hazed a lady having a wine club meeting. Yes. That's still the same person. But so a show that can manage the reality of them as well as the surreality of them Um, episode to episode, but then also I don't know. I'm getting lost in the sauce of my own analogy. No I know too many characters. It's like they can have repeatable like TV bones, but they can be put into like almost movie scenarios, right? And what I was thinking about when I was watching them just do this. It can be broad, it can be specific, it can be light, it can be dark. I was thinking about the bear, which is coming back at the end of the month in just a couple of weeks at this point. And I was thinking about the genuinely organic, beautifully thrilling excitement of the first season in which we were looking at characters who words It seemingly capable of everything also, in a show that was able to straddle multiple tones. Despite what the Hs lobby would have you believe, the mar season one was hilarious. Sure. and impossibly tense, you know and The inevitabilities of long form storytelling, maybe when you didn't intend for there to be long form storytelling, it wears on shows. It wears on characters. They become less elastic So I'm not saying that's's going to happen here, but I was really present in appreciating what's capable right now. Yeah. I guess I would assume based on what I know about the Moral world of the show. that there will be a wrinkle to the roof storyl'm going to kill an old lady next week? Yeah, I don't. I mean, I think that honestly, I would say Stephen Root has been remarkable on this show. And for as much as I admire Kato Flynn and Matthew Reese's performances, Stehen Root is go wrong. L that part could be like way too much yelling at clouds, way too much like this guy wouldn't be fit. Nobody would let him into a restaurant or nobody would want him in like he kind of like embodies like a worn out weathered Truth sayayer in this series. And I certainly really hope he continues on because he's such a wonderful addition to this show. by I'll beascinated to see. I man, presumably they're going to traverse across an island to go find Go find Ruth with a giant tornado streaking across it Stephen Rot, we don't talk about enough because he's like woven into the American television fabric to a degree that is almost supernatural Yeah But if you think about like the first time I became aware of Stephen Rot as an actor was watching newews radio when he takes a partart within two or three appearances, you're like, well, no one else can play this part. This is so so deeply, deeply specific and so remarkable that I can't, but I also can't say that as a nineteen year old, I was like It's a generational actor right there. I was like, that guys really funn you think about how At least in three cases, and I imagine if I did a deep dive on his filmography, there may would be more to pick out. but News radio particularly recently with Barry and with Widows Bay Television shows do not work without Stehen Rin I'm not saying they wouldn't be well written. If Stehen Root isn't playing the part he plays on Barry the way that he plays it in the way that only he can, and specifically here with the Widows Bay as well, which is everything he does is so knowing and broad and clever and comic, but also so soulful and precise The show doesn't work I mean, I can't imagine there was anyone else on their wish list. I mean, it's also like he's been doing this forty years? Yes. U But yeah, I was just I forgot that he was judgeed Mike Rard and unjustified. He was on Good wife. He was on Bardwalk Empire He is in The Newsroom for two episodes. He's on Fargo for two episodes I mean, this is it's just such an insane. O onene sneaky thing is that I know the Cohen brothers are celebrated I don't know if we seeven episodes of Perry Mason with Matthew Reese, which I wonder if that's where that relationship started. But do you feel like the Cohen brothers get enough credit for telling us about people Like it was the Coen brothers. likeike I know that like John Goodman was like a great who was a great theater actor and everyone was like, wow, this guy's really got got the sauce Cohen brrothers, like when they see someone who can do what they want They're telling us Is this the first one with them, oh brother Sthen R U I think so. But I just mean when like people like Stehen Root start showing up even like in the later movies you're like, oh, that's a guy who can do this. Yeah. You know, in the tradition of a Turo or a John Goodman. Um, There's just or a Michael Stoolbar, there's like a specificity of the type of performer that is basically telling you, Tim Blake Nelson, like, Oh these guys can pretty much do anything and should be working twice as much as they do and they already work quite a lot. What do you think of the B sheer plotline, the late introduction of his wife and this pregnancy that needs to also has like a degree of urgency because before it was just like, ye, Oh, wouldn't it be nice if Evan could get off the island and blow up some steam, go to college, maybe. And now it's like, well, they all know that if you're born here, you're doomed So they there was like this push to get Bisher's wife off of the island from Patricia. Yeah. And now it's like, you know, in the wick scene there is great. what's the plan here Yeah the boats That's great. that boat came here on a boat. Great l. It's great line. Yeah. I think that there is an element of engineering television writing into showrunning and the ability to be deeply within the characters and within the script to write funny jokes or have some kind of consistency as one thing but to also be able to step back with some perspective and say, you know what? This is actually a load bearing wall and we're going to need to shore it up a little bit. Yeah. And the show could work hurtling towards a finale hyper focused on the three leads and what freedom might mean for them from this curse works a lot better if there's like a ticking baby clock of a future generation that could be saved more than because like what are this like Again, we're thking about what are the stakes for all these characters, and we understand deeply Evan's unfortunate life and his limited claustrophobic existence and like why he wants to act up and get out The stakes of him liivving essentially well enough for seventeen years without going to a Red Sox game doesn't hit as hard as this young this young couple. uh young family anyway, like who don't really want to be here will' be cursed to live here forever. It' just h it's different. It's just smart engineering. It really is. I cannot wait for the finale. Hopefully we'll have Katie on to discuss it next week. I will leave you to the rest of the episode. What do you think I'm going to do? This is exciting at this point Deisions all have been made announcements, introductions will have happened. Do you have any crystal ball predictions for what I've already said about you, about how I feel about you. how I feel about you not being here This is why I listen That's why I don't. Thanks to Kai and Kaya. We'll be back on Monday someome combination of wonderful television talk T talk to me about Cape fear That's right And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match they spread. He's reaching for the buuffalo wing. Perfect Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's good for C of Pepsi too. Incredible What's a finish Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero suugar for today's match Poetry in motion Do you hear that Sounds like breakfast is ready because Quakers coming in hot with morning nutrition one hundred percent whole grain oats and a good source of fiber to fuel the rhythm of your morning and kick startart your day. And that sounds absolutely delicious. Fuel to start whatever's next. Quaker, official sponsor of FIFA World Cup twenty six This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most Learn more at Acenture d. com slash Spotify I am so happy to be joined yet again, I don't know if this is the third year or the fourth year.ast We feel lucky every time we get to do it. We are joined by the executive producer and judge of Top Chef Our official favorite Canadian Dale Simmons Welcome back to M Thank you so much. I always love talking to you. I am really excited to talk to you. We have a lot to cover for seeason twenty three. We have some good, we have some bad and we have some. ugly, but it some curious Less attractive perhaps, but also really interesting. Fascinating, if I may. So I do think we should start where we just ended, which is the finale. Sherry, Lawrence and Rhoda our final three And I wondered if you could give some insight into how much time because it did feel like, again, I may be wrong about this that there wasn't a this year between There wasn't a gap. That's right because we didn't travel for our finale as we usually do U we went right through all in the Carolinas. And you know, I was actually very mixed about that from a production standpoint when they told us that that was the schedule we had to keep to I brought it up several times with our showrunner, Donn and, who I also think maybe has spoken to over the years We I was worried that usually our chefs get a reset. you know, they get two weeks or so between the bulk of the season and that last, let's say, two to three episodes to get back to their life recoup, get their creative juices flung again, craft this final menu. They got none of that this time, but the flip side was that They just were running. You know what I mean? They didn't stop and then there's kind of a lull and you forget and you're not sort of in the moment anymore and then you have to get back in the moment. So there's two sides to the argument This is one of the first times. the only other time I can think of when we didn't take a gap What? during the pandemic when we were in Portland, Oregon But you know what, I think it worked. I do. I think that their menus were what they would have been either way. And I think that the final three were just sort of going forward, they were in a zone. were They said many times locked in. Yeah, much like the New York Nxts. There's something to be said about being streaky That's right The only thing I really I missed was the hairstyle glow up that we often get from the cont. Yes, That's true. That was a shame. Right That's true. I was willing to. tried to give you some ourselves. You guys looked. Tom especially Tom especially.om I Googled How to glow up. Tom looks amazing. I did Google Tom Koalikio ear piercing midway through the finale, which I've been informed of the interternet was not debuted in the finale, It's sparkled. top of the m season. Yeah Incredible. Tom does funny things when he goes and worksop there. Like it makes me love him so much justust as a side conversation. You know, I think he just gets a little bit like loose and doesn't he's not focusing on the restaurants as much. He's not as stressed perhaps and he You know, when we were in New Orleans in season eleven, he went out one day just before the finale two. We had a day off and he was missing his sons. They were much younger then And he went out to Frenchman Street and got a giant tattoo. out of no, first tattoo he'd ever had And he was like over fifty. He just decided that day that he wanted a tattoo and he got a giant tattoo of his son's names on his arm in this beautiful script and like came back really casually the next day to shoot. And I was like, what the F is that He was just like, yeah, it just felt like it. and since then he's had like eight tattoos, Then on this season, he walked into the set one day with new ear pursings A to be fair, apparently he had them or at least one of them before from years and years ago and they closed up and he was like, I was in a mo I went't got me ears, Perce restaurant people for him Yeah. You take them out of the restaurants, but they still have that energy. Yeah. I no. So with the lack of break between the penaltimate episode and the finale What opportunity did you and Tom and Kristen have to discuss what you expected? Is that even a worthwhile question? Did you expect certain things coming into the finale and were those expectations met or subverted in any ways with what was actually served Um, you know, we only talk about it to a certain extent because you can't expectations on them in that way. You have no idea what they're going to do. I mean, you have some idea, obviously of eating their food through the season. you know the direction. We knew that Lawrence was going to pull from Chinese American roots, we knew he was going You know, we knew that trajectory, we knew that Rhoda had been starting to really show us this beautiful Filipino home cooking elevated. We knew that Sherri would bring in the skill and techniques she had from the restaurant she worked in with you know, her Brazilian We know the generals, but I don think you can ever expect. And I think when you do have too much expectation, you're largely disappointed, right? Because They need to show you who they are. cant You can't force on anyone, but certainly not on a chef in this creative outlet What you want them to do. You know, it's like children. You need to meet them where they are. And so That was a weird metaphor. but you know what I mean? You really you can't there's just no way of knowing where they're going to pull from, where they're inspiration is and what is meaningful to them. And that's the beauty, I think, of the finale, that we finally release them from all of the parameters and fininally after you know thirteen episodes of making sure they cook us exactly what we want in these very narrow we let them just show us what they can do. And I find whenever I do really discuss it in advance or have expectations, which I have had over the years. I'mappointed, truly, I'm like o, it's never as good as I want it to be. There was a technical error here. but takes all the joy out of them just cooking from the heart, right? And it it's not about beinging perfect sometimes. it's about sort of showing us themselves and pushing themselves and giving us a piece of who they are. and I want that to be soulful and meaningful and delicious more than I want it to be this like fussy perfection And Yes. and then I think you got what you wanted because I think at least from an audience perspective, this was a quite imperfect finale in terms of blocking I was struck by and I wonder if there's any aspect of this that can be credited to the lack of break. just some pretty fundamental temperature plating cooking method decision making errors that left you guys with what seemed like I couldn't tell, honestly, I couldn't tell ultimately if this was an incredibly hard decision because everybody kind of messed up ultimately it was an easy decision because one person didn't mess up as egregiously as the other two on the technical things Both. It was a hard decision It was a hard decision because all of them did at least one thing that we absolutely loved that we couldn't stop thinking about that really blew us away. And all each of them also had something of a flaw along the way. if not More All of their dishes I think we're actually in some ways more ambitious than we often get in the finale I think they used ingredients that we don't often see. I think they push themselves to sort of show us what they really could do that they've been holding back a little bit It wasn't perfect, and I guess there's an argument, we'll never really know to be made that they were tired because they were definitely tired I mean, they were tired by restaurant wars. They're always tired by restaurant wars But U The good thing is that it kind of doesn't matter because again, as we say all the time, it's greater a bell curve. We're not comparing their dishes that night to dishes they've made in the past, to other chefs, to what I could get somewhere else. We're only comparing them to each other in this sort of bubble of a scenario Fross the board, they were all tired. They all had the same challenges. They were all up against the same timeline So in a way, you just have to sort of clear your mind of like what could have been, you know the what ifs of if we'd given them a break or, you know A moment or two of disappointment for sure about temperature, about cooking.' done this once or twice, you know two or three dishes sort of stand out to me that way But really I think it was an even race and we truly were sort of stumped at the very end of the meal. Obviously cle. I actually think that the analogy you made towards meeting children where they are is very useful here becausecause I definitely found as a viewer this season I mean, how could I not be comparing seasons to seasons, but particularly There was disappointment that I felt when I realized that at least from a viewer perspective, having not tasted the food, None of the contestants were really elevating and transcending in a way that some of the legendary greats or even the more recent greats like a Buddha or a Tristan did. U you know, Buddha was made in a lab to destroy cooking competitions, but But Tristan out didn't Christmans didn' come out of nowhere, but his arc over the season was almost like scripted in the sense that, oh my God, the prince who was promised has been here the entire time. And he'sil and built and built and found a beautiful way to express his natural gifts through the prism of the challenges. Whereas someone like Lawrence, who I loved as a contestant, I imagineed I would love as a person and whose food I would choose ten times out of ten Yeah stayed within his comfort zone elevating, but within his comfort zone. So I wonder how you are able to keep your focus on the specifics of the season you are judging without remembering what is possible within the framework you've created year after year. I mean, that's interesting because I think we've had seasons where we've thought that much more so actually. In Wisconsin. I remember we thought that a lot. We had many more discussions about it. What was interesting about this cast was especially in the first F or six episodes. Yeah. They all brushed it together on days that they crushed it and they all lunked and flopped together on the days that they flopped. They sure did. And it was a bit of a roller coaster that way. We couldn't figure out what was happening. they But they were also, I don't know, they all played on each other really, really well. And there were certainly some really memorable challenges and really memorable dishes. I'm so used to just thinking about it the way that I describe that it is on a bell curve, that it has nothing to do with how Melissa King cooked or how Budha cooked or Hutriston cooked , you know, any number of Kristen Kish, exactly All we have to do is think what was the best thing we ate today and what was the least thing we ate today. Those are the parameters. and that's part of why It's set up that way. You can't judge it like as a mark out of ten. It doesn't it's not a science, right? It is It is a crack And you need to think about it holistically, I think In the scenario you're in, you know what I mean You can't compare it to, you know, it's like sports. I mean we talk about this all the time, An, right? Like it doesn't matter how you played yesterday or how you could play tomorrow. It's how you played the game that day against the opponents who were there on the field And and I think We have really trained ourselves to remember that along the way. And when we don't, we're reminded by each other And and most importantly, perhaps, we have a fourth judge at the table, sometimes a fifth who have no context and they are so vital to that process to bringing us back to what is right in front of us and not worrying about anything else becausecause it doesn't matter. There's no way to judge it fairly if you bring in those factors I imagine the actual grinder production is incredibly intense. and so opportunities to adjust are probably minimal, but are there producorial discussions midseason post certain challenges about ways in which maybe you could nudge things in a direction to to challenge, to surprise Because you know, there're obviously producorial decisions in that direction made before the season. like let's bring in couple. Let's bring in brotherses and the potentialctionasting. The potential conflict never happened. It was all very pleasant, which I like. We always talk, especially the quick Fires, but there's always room for decision making that we talk through in the challenges. I mean, certain things are set, the parameters of the theme But we can adjust the time, we can adjust the ingredients U we can adjust certain factors because we are We are hit with real life scenarios all the time. You know, we cooked overnight for a barbecue challenge and before we went to judggees table, there was a massive possible tornado cyclone hurricane situation. And you know, we had to stop down and pivot and figure it out. And so That's extreme, but We definitely look at each challenge we come to it because they are written before we start the season and then we go into execution and There's always a hold on a second. And they do this? A they as a group capable pulling this off Be we also don't want to give them something that then everyone's gonna to flunk and then no one looks good. But After episode two this season, which was our chili pepper challenge, we realized that yes, they're capable. You know, they didn't do great in episode one and they didn't do great in episode three, but they crushed it in episode two. So we knew we could crush them a little bit more than we We're worried about it. And and push yoursel. You filmed that inside what appeared to be a torture chamber It was the dber. it was ninety seven degrees and we were eating ghost peppers for breakfast. Yeah, this is season twenty three. You don't have to do this. But you want to know what's interesting about that challenge that I keep S We ate that multi coursese chili pepper meal And we so we were hot. like we were sweating because it was August in the Carolinas. I ate some cucumbers along the way to like cool m out But it didn't look way. I was prepared. L we walked in thinking, we're gonna to be like in bed for three days grabbing our bellies U And all of us were fine. because they actually figured out how to use the peppers in such beautiful ways. They didn't blow us out at all. Even Rhoda who won that challenge with her final course, which was the hottest possible pepper We loved it And we didn't love it in a way that's like you love it and you're eating it and it's so good and so good and then you stop for two seconds and you realize that you're about to like Pel over We We got there. We were fine. It was a shock to us all. I'm genuinely, I respect. genuinely to them and to you guys So you mentioned the lack of travel in the finale. and so that does bring up the elephant or maybe the peacock in the room, which is as a longtime viewer, I couldn't help but feel that there have been some budget trims over the years and it felt particularly this year slightly claustrophobic. there were a lot of in studio challenges that there were There was a less fewer opportunities to be out and about. last chance kitchen being trimmed by a number of weeks and only one contestant returning from it Um 's just these smaller things on the margins, up to and including in an episode that I think was rightly acclaimed I think there were two takeaways from the Asheville episode. One was, this is what Top Chef does Best, connecting contemporary events, culture, emotion, family, storytelling, and food to also watching it and being like, They took a two hour drive and none of the judges and Kristen didn't come with them and some of the restaurants they just did a drive by that felt small. Yeah. So interesteresting let me dw broadly. It's actually totally different. No, no, it's really interesting. You picked up on all those different things and you are right and wrong about them. Love it. First of all, we did just as many in studio challenges as we have done. in the last five years. Okay We have a mandate because we build a giant studio that we have to do well we do almost all our quick fires there and we have to do, I think, at least two eliminations there. I could be wrong, like I can't have the comp, you know, I don't have the details in front of me That the same as we've been doing actually for the last several years. That did not change actually felt like we were out in the most beautiful locations so much. But what did change is that usually, obviously this isn't a secret We work very closely with the CVB of every city we're going to, right? withith the Visitors's Bureau and the tour, you know, the tourism board, the city, the mayor or the states This year, the Carolina stepped up in such a big way that that was their deal. They wanted the whole thing Usually we don't we don't sell them the whole thing. they made a really compelling argument for being in different places and moving, you know to Charlotte obvly basing ourselves in Charlotte but then moving to Greenville and doing three full episodes in Greenville and then a little bit in Asashville, but that was because there were different cities playing into it and Charlotte and and Greenville gave us ninety percent of the support we needed in Ashheville, We wanted to do Asheville. That was us wanting to honor Ashville. Obviously, Ashville is known for so much of its culinary and as an amazing Dining seemed to such a small place. And so we wanted to go to Asheville So we did it the best we could because we it really wasn't in the resources of what you know in as big a way as the other two places. So we found a creative way to work Asheville in and hurricane relief and speak to some of those chefs who we tried to get to come to Charlotte for other reasons. We weren't able to make it So you know, we had to use a budget creatively, but it wasn't necessarily because it was trimmed that we didn't go on a finale. It was just more that S that North Carolina and specifically Charlotte came to us with such a big plan That's interesting. They were like, this is what we want to do. We want to keep it here the whole time. I also think I understand that. Part of it is also, I think that There's benefits to filming more regionally that are exciting and seeing things we've never seen before, but I would also imagine it presents an issue in terms of scheduling and budget too, to then bring in recognizable Chefs know, you want to celebrate local, you also want some bigger celebities like themames for sure. All of the above. Yeah. But interestingly when you mentioned Lastkan's Kitchen, that's a completely separate budget actually. It's a completely different show. It operates like its own show, actually So the changes with that definitely came play, but that had nothing to do with the with Top shhif proper that we were making. So yes, there was a different sponsor, you know, there were sponsorship changes and And certainly they chose to make it a smaller show this year. has nothing to do with sort of like the bigger picture of topsip itself, that would have happened no matter what. And I say this a as a fan and someone who wants the show to be healthy, I was also concerned by the time slot shenanigans Um, you know, me too. It felt like Kristen was too Kristin was out there about it on social media. like because she gets heat for it and it all falls to her I mean, because we are the ones who get yelled at by fans. but I want to do something interesting Yes very much. Itid't matter. Now it doesn't matter because the fans are the fans or it doesn't matter because increasingly people are watching it on Tuesdays on Peacock anyway. and so nine hundred forty five is abstract. Correct. It was a weird social experiment and it annoyed us because We're all not and Z alphas and don't we don't understand how TV works these days But the proof is in the numbers, which is so interesting. And I wish I could get more specific. I just don't have that information But the story is actually pretty amazing. It drove us nuts And then also that same thing that always happens with social media that the few people who are the loudest get the attention. Oh yeah. but it turns out there's only a few of them you know, in comparison to the numbers we're seeing. So um as frustrating as it is for me because I want to say Mondayays at nine. Yeah And it moved sixteen times apparently Everyone's really thrilled and it didn't make Enough of a big difference. to really be a problem, which I actually think is fascinating. Yes, as The study I mean, the show has straddled so many eras that it can continue to thrive and adjust and evolve is a good thing Okay, so we have to talk about two specific moments, obviously. I did think that I was trying to try I was doing the TikTok as in the clock, not the app went on here And I think we can trace it all back to Chekov's tire swing Because from what I remember correctly, Jen swung on a tire swing right before showing up in the Carolinas, injured her shoulder. and then a lot of crazy stuff happened all because of that initial injury. Yes. So correct. So she's I understand it as well. So she was injured. She arrives slightly injured. gets she exacerbates the injury through repetitive chopping and doing all the things she needs to do as a cook She sits out one or two quick fires. She is warned that we can't really accommodate this. She says, I'm going to stay but then has to go due to an onset of what may have been Bell's Palsy or something. It was Bell Palsy. Yes. I think I hope that No, I think that was public. wasn't on the episode, but whichich by the way was related, but Bell's Palsy is a whole other thing and it's a virus, right as I understand it. And it's brought on Not quite sure how stress? I think stress. I don't know us. Yeah. So she so she has to go Justin, who has been eliminated, her partner, is offered the chance to stay And he lovingly and generously says, I need to be with her So he leaves U Now what we learned I think awkwardly this season is that the last chance kitchen taping is not happening concurrently with the rhythm of the show. This is something that, you know, the magic of televion We saave them up, we save them up and do them in bothult We didn't because we need a few people at a time and we didn't know that So what led to was a very, very strange, felt like cover up situation briefly. Well, only because we You didn't know what happening. We didn't know what was happening. because So Seer does not show up in L Chance's Kitchen. No one shows up in L Chance's kitchen. The next week, Justin shows up in Lest Chance's Kitchen, having determined that Jen is well enough for him to compete He loses and Rhoda comes back eventually But Sieger has already come back Crect. any lessons to be learned here in regards to the last chance kitchen of it all? or is this really a freak one off in which a contestant is injured and everyone tried to do their best It was a freak runoff. I mean, it was it was just an unmitigated circumstance that we could have never anticipated The onset of what, you know, when we saw her suffering really that last day, you could see that like Beyond her shoulder, her face Paralyzed And it was getting worse and worse. And we just had to call. I mean, you have to call it, right? We need you Are you doing this to yourself, right? And so as a organization, we have to say, it's time for you to take care of yourself. And then the sort of domino effect of, okay, well what do we do now? It just was this You know, that was the The good and bad of bringing in a couple that by what are the chances that the last person who've been eliminated in that episode was Justin And then did he want to stay or go? Well, he did, I think the right thing And all of a sudden, we had to figure it out because there was no footprint for this. There's no precedence. U It's it was happening in real time. and I remember that night staying really late and Kristen staying even later to film that conversation with Justin, to go in and tell him because Jennifer was at the hospital. and we all sort were waiting. I ended up going home and I was waiting for Kristin to text me to tell me what was happening because we needed to know where the show was going to go Dona, our showrunner was in touch with us all And we were figuring it out as we went along. U So you know, I can't imagine it would ever happen again. You know, we want we wished we could have like shown more of her journey, but also there's only so much you can follow someone into urgent care situation. We just want to make sure she was better and she is, she has made a recovery. We're glad about that. Downstream of this decision Sger is eliminated is saved by a Dodges Rhoda in last chance kitchen survives deeper into the competition. makes chicken liver parfet in ninety degree heat that looks frankly deeply unappaling even to even to a viewer and then has an all time crashout at judge's table, something that we haven't seen on the show maybe ever. and also kindind of Bracingly broke the seal of a very beautiful Portive gentel kind of vibe that has been cultivated over the last few years, where everyone is supporting each other, everyveryone is there to make friends And you know, eliminations are tough but fair How shocked were all of you How much did we not see So where do we begin? Yes. I can Lver miss was unappaling. Again, that we are living and judg on a bell curve of what was the best thing we ate that day and what was the worst thing we ate that day under the circumstances of the challenge that we werere given and It was very obvious to us that Although he had good intentions and there was good flavor It was not a successful dish for a few reasons. Um You know, we know the chefs so peripherally in terms of their personal relationship to us We had been hearing a little bit of grumblings. kind of small whiffs of pererhaps over conffidence But He also had done some amazing things in the course of his trajectory on the show. I mean, yes, he got eliminated There were a few clunkers, but there was also some really amazing moments for Sigar, I think, Food wides. It was a surprise to us. I always say that I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often becausecause it is very hard to take criticism Even if we are trying to be constructive, you are on camera being told what you failed at And that is an incredibly hard fult to swallow no matter how who you are I mean, Tom always says you chose to be a chef. you will get reviewed in your career. That is the path you chose. if you want to be a restaurant chef you will be critiqued. If you want to be An opera singer, if you want to be an athlete, if you want to be a dancer, a singer, an actor, you will be critiqued. That is the craft that you've chosen I think what what happened with Sger was You know, I'm still trying to process. but happen this truthfully. There was a lot you didn't see. There was a lot more conversation back and forth between all of us. again you did see you really saw. I think to what happened understand I could take away Wh he was going home because he followed the challenge. He incorporated two or more ingredients from the Appalachian pantry He made a dish that He finished What I don't understand is like someone has to go and of all the things we tasted, like everybody was successful in doing that. Every single person used two or more ingredients And every single person finished their dish and served us something great And even if it was great, it was the least great of the five dishes that day. I think the show has really thrived as it has steered away and I say has steered away. This is like already twenty years old, but there's very little of the quote unquote reality show left. It is a very, very high minded and supportive competition program U But that said, there are some reality elements and eliminated contestants don't go home so he's stewing around Charlotte somewhere and then comes back for the finale, Was there any bumpiness or any friction? that you perceived of, was that ever an issue Iust wondering the same thing But he did calm down. And then in everything I've heard from Roda and seen on the final cut. And then I actually this morning was reading an interview with Rhoda about that exact question of how was it then cooking with Sger knowing what had happened in his elimination He was like so thrilled to have him and she knew he would show up for her and he did He cooked his heart out for her. He supported her, he executed as she needed him to. And they worked really, really well together. and they're really close. And in fact, I think he flew to Hawaii to cook a dinner with her last night or over the last couple days So I think he was able to get over it. I wish I understood what his point was more Like what was he trying to tell us? I'm not totally sure. I'm not going to give him his flowers for being willing he was willing to fly to Hawai No I'm just saying sacrifice. No I was making the point that they are so close. She invited him, right? So like it worked. All of these people are professionals. they've worked with high, you know, hot blooded But they are particularly close is what I mean even after this happening. Okay, so I have to call you guys in this and find out what's going on. There was some feeling that the that the You know that Nana should have gone home in the first episode for the Ring moold, but I'm not on that camp. I loved that episode. I loved for the way it demonstrated, the evolving role of the judges, you guys in your pastoral role, especially Kristin in which she brings to the show. And also Tom being like, I liked it more. Good for Tom. So I'm not worried about that. There was one elimination that still sticks in my craw, and I need to understand more about it. Oh Okay. So Rhoda is amazing at the top, falls to the bottom, lastast chance kitchen Boat races everyone. She christens, she crescendes back in as a as a top line competitor.. She walks back in and her reward for winning last Chance Kitchen in such a dominating fashion is to get shanked. No that would be lambbs shank shived with dessert Yes, setet up to fail does fail makes what is clearly to the audience The worst dish of the day And then Oscar goes home because he put rice on his plate That felt a little Hand of God a little bit. That felt a little It wasn't As I remember it And again, it's so hard to remember it all But and I try to remember it versus just pull from what the show showed you, you know what I mean? His dish, the rice was terrible. Like the rice was legitimately not and it should have been If he was going to add something that was duplicative or redundant since his assignment wasn't to make rice. Is that the So he added something he shouldn't have, and the thing he added was bad. But but you know, it wasn't like there was no hand of God. It was really just like, again, sometimes when there's a few things that are sort of in the same the same level and we have to make a decision There's no, well, let's just not send anyone home or let's send do we go home. We go about it from different angles. And often it's well, what would I rather eat again And I would rather eat that dessert a hundred times over than eat what Oscar served us. It just wasn't successful. It wasn't delicious. Hers was a bit of a mess, it was. But it wasn't like there was nothing ort of bl like tasting about it or actually bad about it. It just wasn't ully put together I'll allow it, pllus she won and she deserved to be there. And I would' have been angrier if she was gone, but I'm just saying ye. Okay. it's a good perspective. I like hearing all this stuff. It's very helpful. I've said this before. You should be a producer on the show. You should the audience producing. Cal. Give me a call We I have plenty of questions that we don't really have time for about just like I like talking to you very much about the state of the industry as well as the way it reflects on topop Chef. So I think I can sort of consolidate that into one basic question, which is One of the beauties of the show over many years and now decades has been seeing the way the show has both led the industry and responded to changes in the industry. and you can see changes from like the dominating masculine brigade system to this beautiful moment when I diners' eyes and stomachs turned towards cuisines they may not have been familiar with and the contestants reflected that We're in a very, very strange and kind of dark moment, I would say, economically, certainly. I mean, generally, yes, but particularly for the restaurant industry at the moment. And here's a quote I want to give you from a recent interview in New York magazine with Dan Kluger, who's a great chef in New York. whoes I love him so much and I love his restaurant Loring placeace, which he is closing after ten years. So here's the question and the answer Here's the question How do you operate in a place where you need to charge fifty dollars for an appetizer that once cost twenty dollars in Dan's answer You don't, which is why we're closing This is the moment the restaurants are in. I mean, three restaurants, major to me. vital restaurants to the lifeblood of New York City closeed last week or planning or announced closure last week, including Tom Calikio's cra So how can or how should top Chef reflect this reality? or how does the contestant pool reflect this reality? But I think that your earlier question about budget Cstraints does reflect this reality But there is still appetite for what we do And we are so lucky that we can give our contestants the means to do it on our show. our show isn't the real world, right? We know that. But we do pride ourselves in it reflecting real world circumstances of what it takes to run a restaurant or be a chef today Obviously we are not including so many things. We give them the money they need. Obviously, we do put constraints on it. They're never like You know, I think it's not actually helpful to just say, Oh you have all oney you need to buy H we are and and they do get two point they get two point five percent back also. let's be clear about that There's cashback That's beened Wells Farg. Thank you very much U We love Wells Fargo, but We, you know, I do think that it is still a hard It's still challenging. But what I think it allows people to do is to push themselves creatively to figure out they can serve that still reflects who they are when you're not relying on the crutches of Easy luxury Yes. And I think that that actually is really important to the moment we're in You know, I read an interview and what it's worth I'll send it to you after this call because I've sent it to so many people. It's actually was written by a chef in Toronto, who I'm friendly with, who I was on. top chef Canada with and whose restaurants we ate at a lot when we were shooting in Canada last season, and he's a chef I respect a great deal. he wrote an article recently and what he said, like I can't get out of my head and it's very similar to what Dan Pluger said which is that he said the problem is that Restaurant and I'm paraphrasing The problem is that restaurants are unable to charge the prices of what food costs. They have to charge What Diners are willing to spend. And there is such a massive discrepancy between the two. and diners have no idea And if we really charge, if we I do not run a restaurant for this reason If restaurants really charge for profit margins like that reflect the margins of any other industry in the world No restaurants. Interestingly, if I may say, I am about to publish a book in November called Gesting And it tackles this question in a big way in part of the book, about how to be a good guest in all different scenarios. And much of the book is about going people's homes and building community and the reciprocal relationship between host and guests, but a third of the book sorry, a quarter of the book is dedicated to restaurants and how to be a good guest in restaurants. And it really breaks that down why we don't understand when we go to a restaurant that it is not transactional. And in fact, we are getting Nine times out of ten, an amazing deal And let's act accordingly, and let's respect and So ace for the people who choose to do this for us for a living. because it is, especially right now, financially Almost near impossible Well, I think also ub Chef has done a lot of great work in the contestants, particularly when they've left the show in educating people not just on what the cost is financial, emotional labor. But also that there is such a profoundly in just ingrained disparity between what we think should cost certain amounts of money. So seeing like what Kuwamee is done in New York with ingredients that maybe people weren't or Paul Carmichel at Kobwa, right being like Yes, yes. This is built on a tradition of things that you can get on the corner in Brooklyn, but we are elevating it and there's a can pay for tortillas and pay for Chineseflorrenance of Chinese food. Chinese food is I always say is and it goes back to a lot of things. I mean there's so many layers to unpack here, but you know the traditional cheap takeout, right? And that is xenophobic But it is also like ingrained in American culture in a way that has to change because we now know that So many of these cuisines are the great cuisines of the world and to do them well and with education and thought and with the best quality ingredients, those same best quality ingredients that we expect when we go to L Bernardin or to U craft You have to pay for it But now what do we do about this moment where the first decade of Top Chef It was clear. You win T Chef, you open a restaurant in your hometown and then you have a restaurant empire and then You do it every month. Second decade of Top Chef, you win Top Chef and you become a brand and you consult and you you work on yourself and you don't tie yourself to one work on the food network. Exactly a show or two. We are now in this era where We're in the fried chicken with caviar era, right? Like that's all anybody wants to eat. one percent or ninety nine percent and you put caviar on the fried chicken and you charge whatever. and that's where we're at What do we do with or who are the next generation of contestants? and what are their ambitions? Because I think that, I'm not faulting anyone to come on and be like, I am a ninja of execution and fine dining like Buddha, Well what is the endgame for that these days without a restaurant. the creativity of a Richard Blaze or countless other contestants who I'm not really thinking of at this exact moment, but like Do they come in with that same creativity? Or are they just like, I live in the world as it is and my margins are what they are. And I'm just I think they come in with bigger aspirations and I think a lot of them come in I do because We always say like just keep cooking. you know what I mean? Like keep your you win, it's very easy to be distracted by the shiny lights and the sparkles of the caviar If you stop cooking, and I don't mean restaurant cooking is the only way to cook, but if you stop cooking, it's very hard to maintain level of Right in the entry I But I look at so many successful chefs whose food I admire so much. Melissa King For example, who markedly actually never had a restaurant for any of us to go to But she has managed to be relevant because she is so good at what she does And she is a creative and she's able to bring that to us in many different ways, whether it's to her book or pop ups or you know, any number of things that she that she does, travel the country, collaborations. And I do think that there's a lot to be said for that. We all They need to make a living? number one And I know for sure that it is easier for Melisssa to make a living doing what she's doing. I'm just using her as an example than it is for most restaurant chefs who have one restaurant that they are notot always, but often just like, you know tied to day after day justust the financials Um She doesn't have stff, doesn't have a lease U So you know, I think that's reality and that doesn't mean that they're not chefs and that their experience and that their creativity isn't valid. I just think that we're going to see more of it because At the end of the day, people need to make a living wage. And that sounds crazy, but also so simple So any wayay you can do that while doing what you love is a gift think And I think that there's just We are a little traditional in that, you know, where I was like, just go back to the restaurant and put your head down and cook That's not what's there's many ways to skin a cat. That is a weird expression. Maybe it's really weird. But, you know, there's just so many ways and I think we all will fall behind if we maintain only that thinking I mean, we're all Uber drivers now, Gale. We're all. So me too, right? Like I was a journalist. like I I worked at FoodMe Magazine for fifteen years. That's how I got this gig And sometimes people ask me now well, what do you do? Like a top definitely takes eight weeks a year. What do you do What are you? And I'm like, I'm still a journalist Just becausecause I'm not working at a legacy media company anymore, I'm actually doing wayay more And my platform has allowed me I mean, being on topop chehef is reporting and research and exploration and Giving voice to my industry The books I'm able to write, the articles I'm able to write, the you know, keynote speeches, the research. I still know, but it's just about thinking you can't get stuck in how it was twenty years ago when I started this gig. You have to evolve. And I think the chefs have actually done a great job of that. That was a very long answer. No, I find this fascinating and it's part of. I mean, I think we touch on this in different versions every year we get to talk. and it stays relevant. it stays interesting. It'll be interesting to see what Rhoda does too, because she's at Oberian on the Big Island, which is gorgeous She's the chef there and I hope she stays there and for a while and shows, you know, because I think now people want to find her But I also know she said it herself, like who knows what her trajectory will be and where she wants to go next And she's figuring that out. And I'm just really excited to see them I adore them. I really do. I think they were a great group of chefs with Rhoda in particular as our winner. I think She will do something unexpected and beautiful and I think she'll really give a platform to the food that she loves just as Tristan did Tuly I'll let you go on this. Every year I do something that is unwelcome, potentially and impossible, which is I ask you to tease where you're going next and then inevitably You do a great job We can't figure it out. And then like forty eight hours later, it's announced. So there's this beautiful little lune between that. and I wonder if you have anything prepared to tease us with. You know, I'm going to disappoint you this year because often I do know right around now. June is generally generally when we find out because we start shooting in August But we are not shooting in August this year. We've been pushed back a little bit, really only for scheduling going to make a lot more sense to our to our year and our planning for those the network, not just our own show. And that's a great thing, but it means that no one has told me. This isn't like that isn't a hint in itself, like when they do not because remember I wish I had better ino. All I know is that we will shoot, we will make another season And that's all I care about. I still have a job, which is awesome. This isn't like the year Every year, it's the cherry on top. You know what I mean? They can't take it for granted. The year they delayed the World Cup just because were it was in Qatar and was they had to do it in the winter, this isn't that. isn't top C chehef Middle East. You're not trying to give us a hint. No, we're not No, but that is an amazing reference. Okay. But it is not dissimilar, but it is the truth I'm gonna to trust you on that Yeah. We're eager to find out when it's announced, mayaybe mee too. It does maybe it'll give you time to promote your book and maybe we could talk again more broadly about things then. Personally, it really let it allows well first of all, allows all of us to have a summer for the first time in years instead of cutting it, you know early and taking off from my family. and it's going to allow me a much easier fall because I'm launching my book and going on booktour. So that's like my own personal. And it's going to let us actually plan a couple of Great things, I hope to make sure that this season is the best it can be I hope so too, as the unofficial audience consultant. Yes. Sle, thank you you're always so generous with your time. Thank you. anotherother year the think about. Really appreciate it