Character Arcs and Plot Frustrations

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This episode of the watch is presented to you by Amazon Prime. Ever have a plan come together out of nowhere and realize you're missing something? Like a last-minute beach day, a spontaneous hike, or an outdoor movie night you didn't plan for? That's when Prime Same Day Delivery has your back, getting you exactly what you need fast and reliably so you can actually join the moment instead of watching from the sidelines. Same day delivery, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas terms apply. I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com and joining me in the studio wondering if Amish Linklater can play stretch four for the Sixers, it's Andy Greenwald ! Yeah, all of our interests. Widow's Bay, the Philadelphia 76ers. Free agency. Free agency. It's great to see you. Uh today on the menu. Let me tell you a little bit how we do things at this restaurant. Yeah, great. It's small plates. They're meant to be shared. Great. It's farm to table. How many do we need per diner? We're gonna do uh the most recent two episodes of Widows Bay, which both came out this week. I'm gonna stop you before you even start. We're gonna do the last four episodes of Widows Bay because we're not on the record together about any of them since episode three. Aaron Powell So you obviously didn't listen to any of my monologuing. No, I heard that you did it. I said we're not on the record. Um and we also are gonna talk about Spider Noir. We're gonna talk about the most recent episode of Euphoria and the most recent episode of Top Chef. I also have some news at the top, but it's been a minute. It's been a minute since I've seen your your beautiful visage in person. You've been traveling a lot. Not that much. Really? I I mean I've took two trips within the United States. Two trips within the United States within the last two weeks. That's traveling a lot. That is traveling a lot. I did it. Pacific Northwest and uh What are you trying to hide? What am I doing? I'm just raising a lot of money. You're bundling. Yeah, exactly. Um, it's great to see you. You can reach us at the watch at spotify.com. I noticed we just got a flood of new emails. Every once in a while, I gotta tell you, we're getting to the point where we might be able to do an Andy only effingers only mailbag. Stop it. But it's all just people being like, I'm gonna read Effingers too. Yeah, well, there's a lot I see a lot of uh gunna. I don' Um you can follow us on Instagram at the watchpod underscore. You can watch us on YouTube at the ringer dash TV channel where we're there with the prestige TV pod, and you can watch us on Spotify where I hope you listen to us, but we're also available elsewhere where you wa listen to podcasts. Is our email address has anyone signed it up for any like act blue emails or recurring donations? No. Doesn't seem like it. I mean, I do get a lot of like I feel like I've seen an uptick in like random PR emails where I'm like you don't know your audience like would you guys be interested in covering the Iron Man race? But not not Tony Stark, but like guys who have to run, swim and, bike? I thought it was gonna be Tony Stark versus like Iron Heart. You know what I mean? Versus War Machine. I always uh kind of had a sneaking suspicion that I might be able to do an Iron Man. Okay, hold on. I just This is the earliest time I've ever closed my laptop. Just in the I can do all three things. I ha you know what But I can't I don't know if I could how long I could do them. Is there like a like an Ironman for softies. You know, like soft batch Iron Boys? Does anybody know an Iron Boy competition? I could look at Wait. Wait. When was the first time? The first time you ever learned about the Iron Man competition at the end. Right. So basically, I wanna I'm gonna ventriloquise this for you. I feel like we probably had a similar experience. Like maybe you're home from school one day and you turn on the ocho for ESPN dose at like two thirty-five p.m. flagship. They didn't always have college football, bro. Like show some crazy shit. And you would just see someone like weeping, running in a speedo. You know, which is usually would be Cinemax at 11:30 p.m. on a Friday. But in this case, it was the middle of the day. And I also was entranced by this for exactly the reason you said. I can physically do those three action. I was kinda like it actually seems like it would be refreshing to take a dip. That's right. I thought the order was reasonable. So what is it? It goes swim bike run? Yeah, I think that's what it was. Someone can Google that for us while we go here. Honestly, the only thing that bothers me about it is like wouldn't I get a little chilly on the bike after getting out of the ocean? Yeah, because my only reference for this wasn't that sports were hard and I wasn't qualified to do them. It was my favorite feeling isn't getting out of the ocean. I'd love to like drive for a little bit so I don't chafe. But 100% you have locked in on something that I haven't thought about in decades, which at no point did I think I'll never be able to do that. I was like, oh, that's something to put on my list. I think as only children, we had no tutelage. Our fathers they turned their backs on us at early age. Certainly athletically. But I didn't have an older brother to be like, this is how you bowl. So a lot of what I do, much like Natasha Hemstridge and species, is mimicry. You know? And so you see someone say is very sexual and violent at the end. But okay. Your version works too. Um I would watch a guy bowl on the SPN and if there was a bowling birthday party, I would do like an elaborate like kind of fucking You would go for spin? Yeah, I would be de Jesus and I would like throw a ball six lanes left because I'm not like a professional bowler and I'm not an Iron Man , but I probably would start really strong. The other thing, and I'm sorry to delay on wide world of sports that we're going to talk about today. This is more interesting than the last two episodes of Euphoria. It makes it seem I I'm I'm kind of under the impression that we've made like great leaps in protein intake in the last seven years. But like you and Craig? Or like who? No, just like gels, bars, all those things. Like you could put it into more. But did like guys back then, if they needed protein during like a race, like just eat turkey? Or what would they do? The pace car for the Ironman triathlon was the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile. And it would drive alongside the athletes and the athletes would take ham and salami and they would eat it and then they would light a cigarette as they ran. Yeah. It was a pure time. Here's the secret. Everybody was fine. Yeah, no, I know. Everybody was fine. Those guys all lived forever. Didn't did they? I don't hear exploded Maui . When they were like, you're too old for this. And they're like, I'm 25. Well, there was that Dennis Leary bit for a while where it's always like joggers, joggers who die of heart attacks. Oh no, that was about joggers that get hit by buses. Never mind. Um You could you could iterate. I could. I have a loting I've I feel I feel like I have a Dennis Leary-esque quality to me sometimes. You've both been in Boston. Yeah. You're wearing denim . You secretly want to be a uh a dramatic actor. I do. I do. You love firemen. Should I stop? What do you want to start with news wise? So we have That was exhilarating. I don't care what we do now. Okay, so I have one thing t for for you, which is a new segment I'm introducing to the watch podcast. Oh and just you know, for first time listeners, of which there I'm sure there are zero, as with every other segment. This will be a consistent staple for two weeks of the show. And I've never been prepped on it. Yeah. Well, often here's here's a behind the curtain behind the curtain. I will be like, it's time for us to do this segment. And you're like, I don't have like remember I'm like, oh, what are we reading this week? Like or watch of the week, what did we watch this weekend? And you'd be like, nothing. Yeah. I didn't do anything. Yeah. And then you Instagram and you're like, look at this cool book I read. You know? Yeah, but I think you save a little bit of your stuff for IG. That's for my personal brand. That's right. Which is floundering. So if you could give me a co-sign of the case. So here's our new segment. Yeah. It's called Your Silence is Deafening. This is great. This is great. I'm already in on this. It's been 48 whole hours. We say this to each other all the time, I think. You have not publicly commented on Tom Hardy's exile from Mod Land. Not publicly, but I've been huddling with my team trying to craft the correct response because So while you spin your wheels trying to decide how you're gonna phrase this. Because to be clear, I did prep a statement, but it was it was flagged. It w it it it was really came in too hard. Um for folks that don't know Mobland is a show on Paramount Plus uh it was created by Ronan Bennett who did Top Boy and then taken over showrun and executive producer written by Jez Butterworth, who also does a show we're gonna discuss in a second called The Agency. And Jez Butterworth is an accomplished screenwriter and playwright in England. Uh he apparently, according to reports, had a falling out with Tom Hardy , which is not the first time this has happened with Tom Hardy. The second season of Mobland is completed, and it was announced, strangely, I thought, since I don't think the third season has been renewed or greenlit, that Tom Hardy would no longer be on the show, that there was some sort of ultimatum. Uh, Butterworth or Hardy, and it seems like Jess Butterworth had won that fight. Then hilariously, I think a lot of like leaked kind of accounts of Tom Hardy behavior. Yes. Some I saw some counter narratives flying around certain circles. Yeah. And then uh as of today, the last thing I saw was that, and this is not from a like super reputable source, was that there is some efforts to bring Hardy back into the fold. Oh, who's leading that charge? Uh who's leading that charge in the media or who's leading that charge like to do that? I think David Glasser who is like the kind of right one studios of Bersario who also oversees a lot of Taylor Sheridan stuff. I'm where everybody's waiting. Where do you land? Mirror Hardy. Oh oh I'm on the clock now? Wait, so you're you as one of the media's biggest Tom Hardy boosters. If anybody's ever listened to me, they're gonna know. Yeah. Look, it is what it is. If you sign Tom Hardy up, man, you signed up for the whole ride. You can't get off midway. I would say off after season two. There are certain things. This is I I've been referencing this a lot because I love it and he's been saying this for years. But our our friend and colleague Brian Curtis's Now They Tell Us Notebook Dump, which is the piece that appears after a coach is fired or someone is at the end of the season. Yeah. Yes. And suddenly like all the reporting that they didn't feel they could they could source or verify or or even report on freely, they can now say because that person is out of the building. The Oppo dump for the big anti-Tom Hardy lobby was locked and loaded. Yes. This is not a secret that he is challenging in the workspace. Read Kyle Buchanan's Fury Road book. Yes. And so I while I appreciate your bane or join the rest of us in not watching taboo. I think that uh I I I'm just curious. I'm gonna float a hypothetical for Let's say that you were scheduled to do a podcast with me and at the appointed hour you arrived, sat down, and I was nowhere to be seen. Now so far this is not a hypothetical, this is every week other than today. Yeah, but then you come b bustling in three minutes late and you're just like, apologies, apologies. What is that ? So sorry, everyone. There was a horrid mess on the tube this morning. Uh Tom Hardy, according to the the the accounts in Kyle Buchanan's book, left um left Charlize Theron sitting in the I believe the term is war rig for three hours before sauntering on to set. Well, I think he was trying to locate his voice, you know? Uh he was trying to get it. We need located. It's always at the bottom of an old well. It's always the same voice. What are you talking about? I just like I think Holly I I don't want anybody to get their uh feelings hurt or be be in any kind of physical danger. I do find stories of onset hole like, you know, sure you know c cultural or personality clashes to be pretty interesting to read about. If if Hollywood never had any of those, it would be a little bit less interesting to read about. Okay, that's fair. It's just I don't know. Do are are you that concerned about the third season of Mobland? No, and I I didn't really like the first season of Mobland that much. I mean I I I watched I think I finished it. I can't remember. But it was just one of those things that I I knocked out like two episodes on a plane ride kind of thing after the first couple of episodes. And I love that cast. And I think you know, it's been a strange show. It was supposed to it was initially uh the idea was it was gonna be a Don the Ray Donovan spin-off. Then I think it kind of m mutat ed into half Gangs of London, half Yellowstone set, you know, in London with this crime family. And some of the reportings to Jess Hardy's been a little bit aggrieved by the fact that it went from being a Tom Hardy show to a Tom Hardy Pierce Brosnan Helen Miren show. And it sounds like he and Mirin specifically are butting heads. I allegedly. I mean what is it? I wasn't Big Mirin getting in getting her litigation bag against me. What if um Yeah Helen Miren doesn't care about what we say, but her husband Taylor Hackford is incredibly litigious and a longtime listener of the Web C. I'm not entirely sure that's the case. Helen Miren may very well care what I say. You're wow, you've changed since your trip. No, I'm just saying I still maintain I know for a fact Taylor Hackford has listened to Proof of Life. I think there is a we listen to the the Proof of Life rewatchables. There is a 50% chance that he was like, you're gonna get a kick out of this and played it for Helmir. And then there is a 25% chance within that that she was like, This is my favorite podcast. I love these guys. Keep playing out this then there's a 10% chance that what? That she's like, let me deep dive this guy's podcast career. Music exists was really, really thought-provoking. And then she makes the full connection after reading all of Chuck's books that you're the one playing pool. Let me just add, there's a there is a non -zero chance that Tom Hardy's also doing this to get off the show, which sometimes happens. I I I I think the most interesting segue for me from this is that Mobland has the kind of incredibly contemporary, representative episode of this? Yeah, the first two. Uh torturous development cycle of many, many shows uh of the month, particularly we're gonna get to Spider and War in a minute. What is the I feel like there's a um it's not a meme, but I feel like it is a saying that like like if you put the the dev the dev boys on something you're gonna end up with like a fish with feet or like oh yeah yeah yeah I I I'm getting them the uh the analogy wrong. But there's some idea that if you keep developing something you will end up with something that is so far from the initial purpose that you're not even sure why it exists. Sure. And I kind of feel that way about Mobland. It's fine and all of the people in it are good. But I I I I don't know. I'm chasing after an observation that I can't quite land about like that's what Tom Hardy's doing? Okay. I got I i if I remember correctly, I can't believe how much long we're spending on this. I believe he said I wanna be in London close to my family. This is a steady gig that I like. That is so close to what I said about Harry Potter. There was just one what was the word he said that he wanted to be close to? His family. Right. Um He's figured it out, man. So another show that is on Paramount Plus, uh, along with Mobland is the agency. And the agency is coming back, I think, June 21st. Soon . And I I'm pairing the agency's return with the return of a uh a bit malign show on Apple TV, but one that is close to your heart. Um a passion project of viewers, which is Sugar, the Colin Farrell Detective Show. Uh also returning for its second season. Honestly, surprisingly, it's been two years, it seems like. Okay. Has it? I don't know. Sure. Yeah. When was sugar on your top ten insanely enough? It was not on my top ten. Oh yes it was. No, it was not. Didn't you put sugar in your top ten? No. I love to zag . I love to surprise and delight you, but no, sir. I'm just gonna look up sugar season one, excuse me. I promise no. I think that I said that the pilot was one of my favorite pilots of the last few years. It's two two thousand twenty four is when it it debuted. Wow. It was a different time. It was Joe Biden's favorite show. Yeah. We've changed. Um maybe that's what you're mistaking me with. Also, isn't it funny that this is the new normal where we are talking about these shows, it's like, oh, the agency's coming back, sugar's coming back with its normal two-year gestation process. Agency was last year, wasn't it? No. Damn. Really? That was also Joe Biden's favorite show? Uh Joe Biden loves the agency. You know what I mean? Yeah. I was Google Joe Biden the agency. Joe Biden the agency? What are you gonna get from if you do that. Uh yeah. Anyway. 2024. No way of knowing, but I'm glad you Google it. Okay. Which one do you want to talk about first? I want to talk about like c well, first of all, you're like you alluded to coming back after such a long interval, but also where you're at with these the like the opportunity for since we're doing a lot more recurring television now in than in recent years a show that maybe wrong was wrong footed at certain points in its first season tonally was still trying to find its voice, et cetera. Which one of these do you think has the biggest opportunity or the most likely opportunity, most like highest likelihood of improving in its second season? Well, I will say start by saying both have delivered excellent trailers for their second season. Sure have. No question about it. Um, and both in if you were just going by the trailers, present a pretty exciting vision of uh 2020's television where very attractive movie stars fully embrace the genre trappings of that are that are really possible to explore within serialized television. So that's cool. Um I think the that said, there is no question I I'll just say this now. Like the agency season two is going to be much better than Because we know what it's about, because it's about it's based on Le Bureau. So we know where season two goes. So let's separate the conversation for a second to say that the agency, one of our favorite shows of two years ago, both because it was styl ish and incredibly well acted and was low-key a pretty good London Hang show, um, despite all the stress that Marvin was going under going through. Um it is, as you said, it is a fairly devout adaptation of one of the greatest shows probably ever on television, the French series Le Bureau. And as the season progressed, I think it started to develop its own kind of chilly swagger that suggested that it was going to deviate in ways maybe not always plot, but in terms of the the delivery of the plot in ways that felt kind of exciting. And second season of Libera is better than the first season with a lot of very cool um set pieces and moments of tension. And this trailer looks so sick. It made me so excited to watch it. And it actually made me appreciate even more how nice it was to have such a quality, consistent entertainment for those 10 weeks, two years ago. One of the crazy things about the agency is that uh, you know, it's got a pretty star-studded cast. Jeffrey Wright, Richard Gere, Catherine Watterstone. Richard Gere is Homer's dad? From Euphoria? Yes. Okay. Carrie Lowell and Richard Gere's son. Mm-hmm. Is Homer. Well, Dylan on Euphoria. That's the character. I just wanted to relevant to our young TikTok fans. I they will have more to do this season, based on so if you were watching season one and you were like Richard Gears in like six scenes and Catherine Waterson's not on this show really. Um and John Megaro, like what's he doing? You know, um, they'll have stuff to do next this season. It looks awesome. It does. Sugar. Okay. So okay. I I can't even we can't have this conversation without spoiling an element of sugar. Many people listening are probably like, what are these guys talking about? I haven't even heard of sugar. Sugar came out two years ago. Detective shows set in California, like I'm LA, like I mentioned. Stars Colin Farrell. Yep. I uh people sometimes ask, do I have to watch the first season to start the second season? We have started to push the limits on what we are capable of with that. Yeah. I would like to take triathlon. Five seconds of just staring at you, maybe vamping. Sure. And in one second, we are going to spoil a big part of what makes sugar sugar. And you know why we're gonna do it? Because fucking Tim Apple doesn't want you to know. He doesn't want us to know. This trailer hides the ball, and by the ball, I mean one of the great television bag fumbles in recent years. You know what I said when I watched this trailer? Are you having a fucking laugh? Yeah, because this is a trailer for the show Sugar Should Have Been. But let me tell you, it's not. But also, it's like, is this the first season of sugar? Also, you can't just trailer your way into the movie you wish it was. We've seen this fail in movies again and again. Three, two, one, Colin Farrell's character on Sugar is a fucking alien. Yes. He's a blue spaceman. When does that come out? Like episode five. Right. It's excruciating. Did you know that like when you were watching it? No No. And then you he he's an alien. Yeah, and then I stood up, went out for a pack of cigarettes. Never came home. Never smoked him. Uh what did you I think I stopped watching sugar. Does does his alienhood play a major role in the second half of the season? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, dude. Wouldn't it in yours? I don't know. This second season trailer makes it look like he loves boxing. Like I don't know. I keep waiting for DJT to tell us what aliens love. I keep hearing there's a press conference coming. I know. And maybe it's like they love noir movies. A lot of people on the streets are like aliens right now Yeah. They're coming up to me with tears in their eyes. No, that's just the Alien Earth FYC campaign, which is all over town. Um Yeah, this is a huge twist in the show that they are not giving away in the trailer. Because it is a full second season. Anchor around the neck of what could have been good. It is I I we I wish I had done the prep to prepare for a the thing This is what we have here. Like, it's okay to do a small thing well. Yes. Like Ina Garden made a whole career out of it, and she should work at Apple TV, frankl y, because you have Colin Farrell, one of the most stylish and compelling and charismatic actors of our time, looking incredible in beautiful suits driving a sports car in a neat Colin Farrell Rockford files. Yes, but like also really embracing the idea of like what LA light looks like and what a noir would look like in bright color, not in whatever fucking rinky dink technicolor they did to spider noir to uh try to to appeal multiple audiences at once. We'll get there. Coming attractions for Andy's Spider-Noir taste. I'm just saying . And that would have in the in the great words of the fucking Seder dinner Dien u. Like that would have been enough. Yeah. But instead they were like, no, no, there's also a a a secret society because this guy likes noir movies because he's an alien. We don't needed that. We don't think that Colin Farrell signed up for this to play a detective or an alien? I think Colin Farrell signed up for this for a chance to wear suits that weren't fucking fat suits in the backlot of Warner Brothers doing penguin. Yeah. Uh and yet he does have to wear an alien suit at some points in the show. In a perfect world, this show gets renewed because they're like, just do the parts that work. We don't care that he's an alien. That's fine. And maybe they did lean into it because they beefed up the cast, like you you were pointing out. it Yeah, Shea Wiggam, uh Sasha Kae, Tony Dalton, like a really great ensemble . The plot already looks more interesting than the kind of It looks like a detective investigating like a missing boxer and and then Tony Dalton, Lalo from uh Better Call Solve, plays a sheriff's deputy, I think. And Jay Wiggams seems to be a fixer. It's just so, so, so weird to me. And it i I I don't know. Like at a time when Widows Bay is on the docket for us to talk about, like I I'm kind of I'm I'm definitely giving I I don't really want to rail on Apple's development process for why this happened the way it happened. And even within the context of it's an alien show and a detective show, the big reveal being just being slow walk to episode five was also such a weird fumble in season one. Anyway, it's just a bummer because I watched that trailer and I was like, this is a show I want. And I think they're probably smart to do that and say, like, look, all the stars are on Apple and they're all kind of doing genre stuff and you'll have a good time with this. Listener, I don't know if that's true. Well I can I can assure you that we'll we'll we'll at least give the second season a college try. I'll jump back in. Yeah. Yeah, you don't care anymore. You don't care. You showed me the way. You led me down the path of we don't have to watch TV to talk about TV. I was a trailblazer in that field. Let's be posit ive. Okay. And let's talk about Widows Bay. Widows Bay released two episodes this week for a very clear purpose. Um, these two episodes are linked in ways that I found just like this series itself, surprising and delight ful. Uh episode six is called Our History, and it's directed by Ty West. It was a big deal. Great horror director, directed Pearl and Maxine, uh, an ex and he directed House of the Devil. Like he's a great horror director. Also directed a really cool uh like Brian Jonestown kind of uh Jonestown-esque um movie called The Sacrament that I really liked. Anyway, he directed this episode, Our History, which is set in 1702. It stars Betty Gilpin uh as Sarah Westcott, who comes to the Widows Bay Island, uh, betrothed to uh Richard Warren, who is the town you could say leader, savior, captor. Um and Richard Warren's play by Hamish Linklater, kind of in a sly nod, I think, to his Midnight Mass character, who was also a priest who worked on a in a rural island. Um and when we find these two uniting in 1702, a plague of violent insanity is kind of gripping the islands. Reminiscent of what we saw in the fog in the premier episode. That's right. Uh, and uh Sarah finds herself in the center of these proceedings and attempts to save herself and Warren's children as he and some of the townsfolk aim to stop her. Should we do talk about these epis odes separately or together? I would like to actually take one, if I may, brief step back just to contextualize our conversation. When they revealed that he was an alien , Widows Bay is the best television show of the year to such a staggering degree. Look who's trying to get an FYC campaign. Let me try again. Which camera? Widow's Bay is the best television show of the year, M dash Andy Greenwald, comma, primary host of the watch podcast. Oh that's for the poster. Primary. You were traveling. Okay. Of course I was gone for a week too. But anyway, my point is , this show is so good in a way that staggers, humbles, and delights me. Like I my experience watching it is such that I am I am enjoying it, I'm laughing, I'm riveted, and I can't stop thinking at every moment of all of the brilliant creative decisions that went into almost every frame of it. Before we even talk about these episodes, I'm going to talk about like the directorial and cinematographical and camera choices that are that are involved in a show this specific, this tonally and aesthetically specific, that shifts. It's a period piece this week. Previous week it was a crazy drug trip. There have been, I believe, four directors so far: Hero Mirai, Sam Donovan, Ty West, Andrew DeYoung, and Andrew DeYoung, who works with Tim Robinson a lot and is fantastic fantastic . There is no there is no aberration from episode to episode. That's the kind of thing that you see in a long-running show where there's enough of a book on it and a style guide that when people come on, they feel comfortable knowing what it is they're stepping into. To do that from a cold stop is just remarkable. Yeah. Um the tonal balance of this show to be legitimately scary, to be legitimately funny, and to be legitimately emotionally gripping is something I've never seen done before. And it's doing it in such a it 's subtle in the sense that this is not a giant, expensive, starry adaptation of something. It is not based on pre-existing material. It is not pr it was not presented to us as the next big show. The way that it was put together with just this like quiet , confident , uh competence and you know, occasional brilliance is wild to me. I it's wild to me. Cosign everything you just said. The The editing is so exceptional. Someone will say, Oh, notice Allison Jones, the legendary casting director, you know, freaks and geeks, uh, Barbie, the office veep. She worked on this, and you can tell, like down to the guest stars week to week. I'm blown away. Well, and to your point, uh several shows that I've been to from not engaged to highly engaged with over the last couple weeks have come out on Netflix and Amazon. Uh Spider and War, for instance, dropped its whole season, Legends we talked about, like the boroughs on Netflix I talked about with Joe last week. Um feels like in the sort of larger conversation, their their moments already come and gone in some ways. Because you just your your engagement with a binge is individual and personal. Nobody is on the same page. You can feel Widow's Bay uptick in group chats and in conversations at I'm sure school pickup or whatever, where it's like, what are you watching? Or like dinner parties or conversations at restaurants. And it's like people are picking up on Widows Bay. They are catching up on Widows Bay. They are excited about Widows Bay. I feel like there was like a almost like an awareness that this is a special two-part event this week. Completely agree with you. There's also something like, you know how I I always in I hear Sam S mail in my head where it's like you cannot get mad at a piece of art for what it didn't do. He was talking to me. But like to you can't make be mad about the choices that it makes. It's like you have to evaluate the choice it did make, not what it could have done. I wanna just say that in less sure hands or in a um a less certain showrunners' hands, like other than Katie Dipple, like this would have been, this art history episode, would have been drunk history. It would have been Betty Gilpin doing kind of Krasinski uh gym gym office fac es while all this stuff is happening because she basically, is doing a note perfect 18th century like Puritan woman, but also doing uh Amy Pohler and Berks and Rick. Like she has comic timing and she is giving it a modern sensibility. I think that is like, uh, as soon as I got here, I was like, what the fuck is going on? You know what I mean? Like she has like that kind of like, I know you're watching me, and this is a break from this show's reality. Yes. But I'm going to be consistent with the way Matthew Reese reacts to things on the island as well, even though it's three hundred years apart. How did they do that? How did they how did they do a three hundred year flashback episode with the confidence of a show that has been running for multiple seasons. Yes. Um it there's these subtle choices that I'm dazzled by. Like we watched the first episode and we raved about it, and then we watched the second , the second one. And I think we took time to praise the fact that the show seemingly pitched itself in the first episode as here comes the big trouble. Like this is going to be an event series for lack of a better word. But then almost immediately it walked it back. The Taurus did come, and there was suddenly more space for episodic situational comedy or hijinks of this type of horror film, this type of horror story. And I was ready to settle into a perceived take of that's pretty smart for a show that might run multiple seasons made by someone who worked on Parks and Rec, for example. Yeah. Then I realized it was doing both at the same time. To make the commitment to do the flashback to the island's founder and then deal with that character and blow it up this is exactly where we're with multiple episodes to go is a level of confidence in the larger story project that is remarkable. And it caused me to go back though and notice all the little smart decisions, like the fact that episode uh three, C Hag, and episode four, um, Bee Treads, which is a contender for episode of the year, are happening concurrently. So playing with time in a way to pre-address the idea. This reads is the Patricia episode? Yes. Yeah. To to to almost uh pre uh counter the the criticism that it can't that that befouls a lot of television, which is it can't be the most important thing that's ever happened if we have time for a bottle episode or a side quest . All of these things are not um amateur decisions. You know, they are not rash decisions. They are thoughtful, considered decisions that are paying off the story. And so all of that is preamble to say these two episodes are ballsy as hell. Yeah. And I'm glad they dropped them together, which is another smart decision. When they were digging him up at the end of uh is it I think at the end of our history, they start digging him up. Yep. I was like, that was cool. And I'm sure they're digging him up to get the necklace, right? Or something. You know my gosh. Yeah. That's this comic screenwriting that is being applied to a sort of chamber horror drama where it's like, what if he was still alive in that box? And then what if Hamish Lincoln later was just on this show for an episode and what if instead of being unfrozen caveman lawyer who's freaking out about like there being electricity and stuff, he's actually like, I've decided I I I need to die because I've been tortured for hundreds of years. And then he's like, actually, I kind of want to live. Can I throw one more what if at you? What if R, our meaning the audience's introduction to his uh resurrection, or he never died, the fact that he's still alive, is played entirely through the perspective of Tom waking up from one of the most hellacious 24 hour mushroom trips in recorded history. So that he shows up and and Richard is already upstairs. Yes. There is no jump scare in the coffin. And Patricia is rattled and Wick has already cut his hand trying to open like there has already been all this stuff happening while Tom is like I've been asleep for a day. That is another sign of filmmaker confidence, storyteller confidence, that we don't need to hit every potential . It's funnier to have them be like, don't open that. We already did it. We're behind our main character is behind the story. Yeah. So in Seasickness, uh, which is directed by Sam Donovan, as Andy mentioned, who, you know, worked on Skins and Severance and the Crown, and written by Dave Harris, um, I've seen this many people say this has got a lot of jaws juice on it and it just juice yeah well just like the the three of them on the boat singing and kind of looking for something out there. Uh I thought this was a really cool episode and I really liked how even though it's basically all shot within the cockpit of Wick's boat, the time it takes to be like, here's the practical amount of space and time that needs to be covered. He has to get to this buoy, but Wick can't go past the buoy . Tom can, Richard needs to to be evaporated into b ones. But you know, like you never leave anything and it isn't an exposition dump, but you do get a sense of like, oh, when's Wick going to get off the boat? And how is or how is Tom going to be able to sail the dinghy? And what's wicked? What are the rules? Yeah. What are the rules? And it's still only forty minutes or whatever it is, and it still flies by and has time for a B plot of Evan discovering that his mother at least didn't die during childbirth, if not is I would imagine I'm starting to wonder if she's still alive somewhere, right? Well, I think are we now on to Supposition Corner? I mean I I I think I don't know if this is like Supposition Corner could be another recurring segment for us. I don't know if it's gonna go well for us. I don't know. Not as good as your silence is deafening. That's a much that was awesome. I'm a little spooked because this is the week because the Knicks swept their way to the finals. I don't know if you're not all of the it's a basketball team. That all of the video footage of NBA experts being like the Knicks overpaid for Jalen Brunson and this is a not the kind of signing that will get going. I'm just saying I don't I wanna be very careful now that I know that these takes live forever. I didn't until this week. I thought I didn't know that all of these podcasts remained on spot. Well if you talked about anything of consequence, I think that might matter, but since we're mostly talking about did you ever watch Iron Man? That dude was an alien. Okay, that's f air. Um no, so uh well okay, I could say this as a supposition corner, or I could say it about like the the watching a show that is made by people who know what they're doing is just such a pleasure. But in the second episode when Tom locks himself into the hotel overnight, we do see weird paintings and scary paintings. And we see that also in the first episode when he's touring Bashir Suladin through the um the museum or whatever. And I think when we saw that, we were like, well, Katie Dippold really learned from Parks and Rack about how funny historical shit can be. Yes. Uh one of the paintings in the hotel is of what appears to be a toddler loose at sea. And I I I I feel like I'm not the only person, I've not read any coverage of the show yet, but like that is clearly the uh Richard's daughter who received the brooch coming off of the boat, making it back to the mainland. Look at the big brain on Brad. That's my job is to go digging in the crates for that kind of stuff. That just appeared in this crate. You know, it's there's many ways to watch this show. And you can watch it with a scalpel or you can watch it and you can sit there and and and just marvel at the the comic tone and and the the spooks and the creaks in the night. You know? It's great. I think I mean this as praise. I I don't care that that this kid is related to the founder of the island. Like my enjoyment of the show is not dependent. I had seen some people be like, they should have thrown the bones overboard because they think they bring Richard's bones over the book. Oh, there there's there's ways they should have behaved. That's a cool way to watch television. No, I mean I like that will probably come back to literally haunt them that they did not get rid of Richard's bones. And his Vienna sausages. Yes. Uh if you were Richard and you're you're three hundred and thirty some years old. Yeah. Isn't a gift shop blowing your mind? Aren't you just like holy shit? I'm on a t shirt. Yeah. There's lights. I I don't know. I was basically, you know, living alone. You're like the Knicks have gotten how far with a small guard? Dude, I I'm just like, I was living alone in London, one of the greatest cities in the world for seven weeks, and I almost lost my mind. Yeah. He was in a box for 300 years and he came out pretty chill. I know. Take that, Nate. I'm saying maybe keep it together a little. Chill out . Yeah, so I uh I was okay. with that He's a little bit he's a little bit touched, you know, he's a little bit different kind of guy. Buried alive, having a moment. Yeah. Top five burials alive. Alive burials. Don't list the other three. The bride. Oh, you want to do the other three? Because this could burn us if there's another one we're going to do. The bride, the Ryan Reynolds movie uh buried when he Which was a remake of uh like a Danish movie, right? Of course you know that. Yeah. Uh this is what it means to be this is the international sign for being buried. How would you know that? Because the movie wasn't I didn't understand any of it except when the guy was like this. Spoiler. Sorry. Nikki's barely alive when he goes in. I don't think that's a distinction that's worth noting. Yeah, it doesn't don't they hit him with a bat like m a hundred and fifty times? Yeah, but not but he's alive. I'm not saying he's alive for long . But Burial Alive , Burials Alive, hit us up the watch at spotify.com. Let us know your favorite. Uh that'd be good. Evan. Now you you've talked a little bit about the the links you're seeing, the theories you're you're theorizing about. Um he is an example of another thing that this show does really well, which is it can have storylines that last 25 minutes and are deeply satisfying. It can have storylines that last multiple episodes, like say the mushroom trip, which obviously has after effects. If you were Tom and you had just tripped your balls off for multiple days, you'd probably be like, am I still high when you meet a 300-year-old man? Uh yeah. But it turns out he shares something in common with him because of the mushrooms spoke to both of them. The Evan plot is obviously like, I guess would you call this a season long runner? Is this guy's rebellion and search for self. Yeah. And by the way, Kingston Rumi Southwick plays the kid is is the presumed innocent cast having a moment. Yes. Him and Chase Infinity both have anything. They are having a lot of people. characters are created purely to exist as stress and plot creators for the main character, but this kid is given the the dignity of his own plot line. Like there's a tiny moment in the episode where he is, you know, called out or caught by Bashir, the sheriff. And he says to him, Would it be cool if when I turned around to go back to my friends I yelled fuck you, pig? Yes. And Bashir says, Absolutely not. But then he but then the camera cuts back to him to smile about it. I do want to digress again, which I know is off-brand for this podcast, especially today. But as our resident pharmaceuticals expert, you were asking Tom's experience in the previous ep uh two episodes ago, was that similar or dissimilar to when we met for the second time ever on the streets of South Party. I don't think my mushroom experience was nearly as intense as those guys. I think that they were dealing with some serious shit. Mine was like four hours long that night. Yeah. And largely enjoyable other than seeing the Death Star in the sky. Oh And maybe feeling like I was in apocalypse now. Somehow the Death Star is. And then my buddy tried to climb into um like a two-by by-two two shelf in his closet . How'd that go? Didn't work. I mean, but he was like, I'm going in there. But what's weird is, and people want the full story of this can listen to the uh train spotting episode of Rewatchables. I think we get into this great, great granular detail. But we should create a lore playlist for my my memory of what was weird about my experience was that me and my girlfriend at the time were walking downtown towards Tower Records to buy the Tribe Called Quest record that came out that n I do the work. Hashtag ally before that was a thing. We were walking and we were stopped by the love movement or beats rhymes. Beats Rhymes in Life. We were stopped by police officers from walking down a street saying, No big deal, can you go around? There is a suspect on the loose on this street. And then a block later, I see your ass, and you're just like, hey, what's up? Now, did you interact at all with the police activity that night? Uh if I did that would have freaked you out. I I don't think I did. I did I was aware of that activity. But you know, If you were focused on the big picture in the sky. I also think Philly PD, they try to keep the crowds moving. You know what I mean? Like it's they always say it. Yeah. Man, what a show. I'm so excited for these last few episodes. So eight, nine, and ten still to come uh over the next three weeks. As a segue, because we're going to talk about Spider Noir in a second. And and Spider Noir does not deserve all these strays, but it's just it's what we got this week. I want to uplift Widows Bay even further just to say that this show exists because Katie Dippold was passionate about a story and a vibe and a tone and a type of show that she wanted to make, and she found incredible partners who were um open-minded and excited to join in and bring their talents and Hiro Murai and everyone else that she assembled to make the show. It only comes from that relatively pure creative act. Yeah. Her which is rare in movies and in TV these days, where a lot of what we see is an example of people doing their absolute best work to clear a relatively arbitrary bar that has been set for them by rights holders or development executives or network executives or whatever. That's part of the job. Yeah. Um and it can be done. Exactly. For free. To be subsumed by generative. This episode is brought to you by Brooks , running connects us to a rush of energy that flows through our world. The cheers of friends that unlock a new gear within us, the intersection of interests that inspires a run crew, the support that gets you over the finish line. Connection is why we move forward and what inspires us to keep going. Let's run there. Learn more at brooksrunning.com. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Hey, you could be earning two percent daily cash back on that purchase. And that one. And even that one. That's because Apple card users earn 2% daily cash back on every purchase, including everyday items they buy online or in store when using their Apple card with Apple Pay. Not an Apple card customer, you can apply in the wallet app on iPhone. Subject to credit approval, Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at Apple.co slash benefits of AI . I think this is actually segues nicely into Spider Noir as you alluded to. So Spider Noir is a new show, uh executive produced by Lord Miller on Amazon Prime. Whole season's already up. It is a uh extension, I guess, or a riff on a character that Nicholas Cage played in Across the Spider-Verse, I believe. Yeah, in the Spider-V erse movies, he voices a version of this character. I I do think it's a sad sign of how cooked we are that all of the press for the show makes it clear that this is not the same character. Yes. Because it could be. This is another iteration or expression of It's it's really weird that like they that they are making that like it's almost like they want to keep the sanctity of these animated blockbusters and do like a spin-off of it, but not explicitly because like what if it doesn't work? We don't want to damage the brand. I don't I don't know. Well, also that it's more it's but it's even more than that. It's that there is an established canon to these fanciful and honestly brilliant spider-verse movies that contain the idea that there are thousands of spider people, sometimes spider horses and cars, and that each one has a very distinct identity. And so to protect the gent le uh souls of these devoted fans, they have to be make it clear that this spider noir is not the same spider noir. There's just more than one. Okay. Gotcha. Are you feeling better about that? Yeah. This is a show set after World War One. One. Uh, and it stars Nicholas Cage as Ben Riley, who is this uh sort of retired spider man, now private detective, investigating an honestly like beyond synopsis set of missing persons cases and and trying to track people down and trying to get blackmail and interacts with um several, I would assume canonical Spider-Man Iterations of them. Iterations of Spider-Man villains. It is an incredible cast of Cage, Lamorin Morris, uh Brendan Gleason, Lucas Haas, Lee John Lee John Lee. Lee Jun Lee, um Cameron Britton, like your guy Jack Houston. What's the giveaway ? You ever watch Board Boardwalk? Yeah. The whole thing? Yeah. Do you remember Grantland? We used to do the damn thing back then. We put seven shows up. Yep. And we talked about 'em. Who put the shows up? The podcast? The T V networks. They were like, here's seven T V shows this year. Enjoy. Oh. Yes. And we were like, yes. I wasn't I was like, actually this is problematic. And people hated me for it. Boardwalk Empire? Yeah. Was that the first time you snowflaked out? I didn't first of all. I've been snowflaking out since I first watched the triathlon in nineteen eighty six. What who will think about the sea life that these people are disturbing? Oh their legs are damp. Um who wants to sit in a wet bike seat? Um that is actually like a pet peeve of mine. See? Uh wet wet swim shoots shorts on a bike seat, chafing. Thank you for speaking your truth. Usually you hang me up to the show. But the way I say it sounds kinda cool and and like normal. You know what it also sa I know. It also suggests that your childhood was like fucking um Goonies all the time. Yeah. And I was just alone in my backyard going like this because I didn't have a backyard. Anyway, um no, Boardwalk Empire, I was like, it was kind of like uh uh prestige karaoke even then. It had some moments. The reason why Widows Bay is able to pull off the two episodes that they did this week is because of choices, confidence in those choices and commitment to those choic es. I think that nothing sums up how I feel about Spider-Noir, the two episodes that I watched and and sort of some light scrubbing through some of their episodes. Nothing sums up how I feel about it more than the fact that when you click play on the Amazon Prime Video app or site, you are offered a choice between true hue color or authentic black and white. Now there's a probably a reaction some people have where they're like, cool, I love choice . I want I want them to choose. I don't actually like this. Present the show you want me to see. And I think it's I think it's indicative of how I ultimately feel about this show that neither looks very good. Uh the black and white is not high contrast enough for my taste. It doesn't have that atmosphere of Old War movies that I think it's looking for. It kind of has a monochrome to it. Yes. And the true hue looks like running Sin City through a color like coloriz ations program to like pop colors. And I kind of found it really distracting. Um and I I have to say, I I don't know if I've really ever talked about this. Oh . I'm not a huge Nicholas Cage guy. Wow. I like him. Yeah. I like him at his peaks. I like him at his his lynch weirdness. I love Raising Arizona. I love Wild at Heart. I love uh Moonstruck. I love The Rock and Con Air . But I am not like everything this guy does is so fascinating and and awesome. And do you feel like he's like kind of playing with one hand behind his back in this game? Like or something? Like or or I don't know. Why am I like I'm like way more into Brendan Gleason and Lucas Haas in this show than I am Nicholas Cage. I I feel like I'm gonna meet you halfway on this. I think that Nicholas Cage being the star of the show and making the choices that he makes is probably the most interesting thing about it. Um that said, I agree that it ultimately is not that interesting. I think it's fun seeing an actor who I think is this is not a controversial opinion, hasn't hasn't had laser focus for swathes of the last two decades in terms of his career choices and got some notes to pay off. It's true. So to see him kind of like relatively locked into something that he could do quite easily is amusing. And there are moments, like there's a moment in the second episode when he when Ben Riley pretends to be a plumber, and so it's Nicholas Cage pretending to be someone pretending to be someone, and you feel the liveliness of it that pops even in the I agree the kind of cloudy black and white sidebar. Like if you want to see an argument for black and white in the twenty twenties, watch Ripley, which is every frame is so beautifully considered and composed that there's no other way that you could imagine seeing it. And I would say I don't think it's goat season. But it's also it's not anecdotal to say this. This was like Garrett Bash, who's the producer of that and producer of many, many other FX shows, um, works with Taika YTT a lot. Um Um basically said that they just shot it one way and then they told Showtime who they were making it for. That's what we did. Because Showtime was like, Can you give us options? Yeah. And I think giving options is a hallmark of a successful contemporary creative career, but it is not necessarily the quickest or straightest path to great creative solution. So in the case of the show, um, Aura New Zeal is the showrunner and I And I think that he has done a really, really solid job doing something that I'm not sure is possible to do in a way that would satisfy and what I mean is he is clearly a talented writer and clearly a talented storyteller, and clearly confident in the ways that are necessary to get something like this over the finish line and get it made. But some of the things that are most on display here is a very contemporary writerly skill, which is tightrope walking, which is finding or trying to find a healthy balance between the two great flavors that don't always necessarily taste great together. You can see the indecision in the options of how to screen it, but for me, the most damning indecision of the show is is this a noir show or is this a superhero show? And I know which side I find more interesting. And I found it as I watched a couple episodes of it, the constant safe return to the home base of but actually that guy's the sandman. Actually it's just going to be a superhero. If he gets pushed off the roof, he can always sling some webs to it. I found that I I don't even know what the word is. It's not disappointing. I just found it non non- elevating. I think that because of the dominance of superhero and comic book stories over the last 20 years, you and I have have often said, like, use it as a Trojan horse to make the thing you really wanted to make. And I I I don't back off of that . But if a guy gets shoved off a building, it's supposed to be a dramatic moment where you're like, is this it for this character? And or you know, even if he's just at the edge of the building, because that's a place, I'm sure there's dozens of more moments where guy's got a gun on our hero and he's standing at the edge of a roof and it's just like, what's gonna happen? I think that if you can throw webs from your wrists to save your own life, it kind of just robs the dramatic moment. And that's something that comes up a couple of times in these two episodes that I've watched. I also I mean, as noir storytelling goes, I have found it a little bit too in between one long story and episodic stories of like, and now I have another case this week, you know? Um it's a cool idea and I applaud them being able to do it. There's also a little bit of Agents of Shield stuff happening here where I'm like, You guys, is it Spider Man or or what? Like, you know, like choose. Just just if if this is like let these guys cook like let them have the toolbox or don't. To me what would be interesting I I hear your point about like it just it's kind of a a cheat code to reduce stakes if everybody can survive anything. The thing that that I was disappointed to see, but not surprised to see, was that the that everyone has superpowers. What's interesting to me about the concept would be about a guy who's a private eye who is basically cursed with abilities that other people don't have, and then what do you do with it? Like the idea that he could I mean, because it is a classic trope of detective fiction and noir that the detective takes more damage than any one could possibly survive. Yeah. And keeps coming. He would have maybe a more legitimate reason for being able to get back up again despite the bruises, but the first person he encounters in his detective mission can ignite him self on fire, which is immediately makes me just that to me that flattened the stakes. If if there's gonna be two shows where there are the normals and Lamor Lamorne Morris is doing a great job playing Robbie Robertson and another canonical journalist character from the Spider-Verse. He fits into this world like a glove and is having a lot of fun. And the scenes with him and Nicolas Cage pop for me. Yep. But he's existing down here with the normals, and Ben Riley's up here with the the the super powered freak shows and that is less that I find that less interesting. Did you like the stuff with Gleason and Haas, the Silverman stuff? I like those actors. Yeah. I I I like those actors. I I I think my my biggest disappointment is um as television shows budgets have gone up and visual spectacle has gone up, the opportunity to really to to make the writing, for lack of a better word, more muscular and kind of the star has gone down. And certainly there are plenty of things that are overwritten, but um the idea of the writing being the star of a show is not really in vogue. Everybody wants to have room to have the the banter that goes bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and then the scene starts. Yeah. That bang bang is noir. That's noir dialogue. And so I wish there had been more opportunities to play that out because it and instead it kind of fell flat to me. You have the trappings of what it's supposed to be with Lee Jun Lee as a you know as an on chem semphital and you have Ben Riley as the put upon um Gumshoe Gumshoe wanders into her place of business where he doesn't belong and he's he's declassing the joint. And then you have dialogue where he's like, well, a singer has to know all the numbers, maybe a detective has to know all the answers. That's not that snappy. That is the a similar of snappiness. You know, so I but again, there are a lot of mouths to feed when you have a show like this. And you know, I I I want to be transparent because we touched on this when we brought up the trailer, like this was this was something that that I pitched on and I was involved in. And I don't want this to sound like sour grapes because I did not get this job. I did not deserve to get this job. And Oran New Zealand did a much better job than I ever would have. Um, but it was interesting to be inside of the process of how stuff like this gets made. And truly the way stuff like this gets made is off of the success of the Spider-Verse movies. I think that anybody who works I uh most people who work in 2026 probably know the experience of wow there's a lot of people on this zoom now. How did this happen? You know what I mean? Yes. And it's like it's not that that's not a bad thing. Nobody involved probably has ill intentions and you know, the way that those things kind of bloat is natural. But there you could probably do like a a hard, a clear-eyed assessment of like, what's this person , what's the like what is the reason why this person is now giving me notes about this stuff or whatever? And it's you're right. Part of the job of the 21st century screenwriter showrunner is to pe please all the different stakeholders. And because the genesis of this is Spider-Verse was a big hit. And so Sony and Lord and Miller um sold a package of Spider-Verse shows, creatives unattached, to Amazon . Yep. And the first one, which was Silk, went through two or three showrunners over a period of years and eventually frittered out and never got made. The process that I was a part of uh for this one frittered out years ago and was stopped um and then restarted a year later and and then this was the development process of it and but even in my limited experience like Lord and Miller are I mean, I think they're geniuses with what they do. No one does what they do, and it's incredible to watch the final product of. Um, they are also creators. So to walk into a process that's like we we have these toys, what do you want to do with them? Because Amazon's gonna make the show if we hit the target that we haven't been able to fully articulate yet. And then you also have the stakeholders who wanted a superhero show and the soup the the stakeholders who wanted to be involved but, maybe not as involved. And then there's the Marvel present and then there's Amy Pascal. And like that's really, really hard. So I bring that up not to spill personal stuff, just to say like to get this show on the air looking really good is fucking amazing . It's just ultimately not something I think I I think we want to spend eight hours watching. And it's incredible that it's there, all these good intentions, good performance and good thinking that went into it. What do you think is the logic behind making it a binge ? Um I have no idea. I I I mean the only thing that I would say is maybe if you watch the boys But the first season was a binge. Oh yeah. So I think that Amazon has some internal metrics that are like for this type of genre show or this fan base, it's better to give it to them. Well it seems like, yeah, if I remember correctly, I think I think off campus, which is a big hit for them, went up as a binge. I imagine any successive seasons of off campus, I could see that being pulled back. I think the summer I turned pretty happened. I mean, it's it's been interesting to watch that network I wouldn't say stumble into because I'm sure it was very, very conscientious, like kind of owning YA and owning like young female romance stories. They have like a whole vertical there where it's like obsession is in session and it's like not only is it a bunch of originals, but they've curated all these like movies that they think fit into this aesthetic. I wonder whether or not they'll continue to do stuff like that. And Peter Friedlander, uh, you know, who we remember from Netflix is in charge over there now, but like I it'll be interesting to see if that streamer in particular becomes less about release dates and more about like centers of interest verticals, basically. I think that's a that's a I don't know if it's smart, I think it is a clever and defensible programming strategy. But I would say that the executive mandates and executives themselves have moved around so much that a lot of these streamers and services that even what we s we have done podcasts where we where we were like, ah, Paramount Plus's central argument for existence is coming into focus. Yes. It's working for them. They found a couple things that work and they're building from them, mostly Taylor Sheridan and and shows that fit into that um aesthetic . Taylor Sheridan's gone under the new uh uh leadership I mean Dutton's doing very well and I think he's going to finish out a couple of shows but yes for sure Dutton's a huge Dutton ranch is a huge hit. I'm just saying that like he is now moving to Peacock. And so what will Peacock do? Similarly, um, you know, Amazon seemed like it was finding some some some fertile ground with the YA stuff and then also the MA stuff. The terminalists and Reacher and Jack Ryan and like dad stuff. And we don't fully know what their direction is going to be under Peter Freelander, but I thought it was but I noted with interest, we talked about this briefly with with Kaya, not the show itself, but the release strategy, that Terminalist, I think has been on the shelf and is finally getting a release date for its second season um in October. So if they wanted to keep pumping that well until it was dry, they haven't really done it. And that might signal that that's not what they're doing. So I I don't know the the the y just want to get terminalists closer to midterms . Oh yeah. Or are they trying to read the electorate? Do you think that the plight of the white Afrikaner farmer is like gonna be a real driving issue in Maine? I I just wonder this is probably a topic for a di a d a different show, but I wonder if in I I know that when we've talked to Casey Bloys, like when he Casey came on the show, he talked about how he was like, I'm on twenty spring of twenty eight. Yeah. I'm I'm planning out HBO has that thing where there is this baton pass from one show to the other over the course of the year. There's usually like a couple of weeks of like docs or event programming or whatever. But you know, you usually have like a Sunday night like show that to hang your your laundry on. And I just wonder whether or not as people increasingly find themselves detached from the cable bundle and also watching things almost entirely on their own schedule and entirely up to their own tastes in the same way that like I know Drake put three albums out last week, but in some ways I don't feel like that happened, you know, because in my algorithm, it's just not a huge deal. Do you basically get away from the release schedule as a paradigm for television and make it more about like what we want is to have stuff there so that when people have found a vibe that they like, they can continue to watch things. Netflix has explored this for sure. Yeah. But Amazon and their really strong links to uh the publishing industry, I think, is exploiting their kind of ability to be like, This book is hot, make it into a show. This book is hot, make it into a show. So it'd be it'll be interesting to be talking about this deep into the Tal Rico administration, you know? Yeah, I I can't wait. I think that one of the less talked about in terms of the front facing, like actually watching TV show storylines, is are these streamers better served programming for untapped viewers who will sign up for the service or making deep obsessives of the people who already have it. Yeah, and I think that was the Star Trek strategy that Paramount was doing for a while of like our floor is the however many people watch everything that says Star Trek on it and we know that they'll pay for our service because that's what we have. Um there was some really interesting reporting in the last month and also a good episode of the town podcast about this, which is like Peacock saying we're getting closer to profitability and then looking under the hood and what does that mean. Yes. And the most interesting thing about that to me wasn't the the the rise in subscribers and what the NBA has done for them. It's the fact that like apparent I I'm paraphrasing here, but that the churn rate was still very, very higharon Powell Cancel after NBA. And so that so maybe the tier isn't the subscriber number, it's the stability number of like how many people you maintain from the people you get at . It's one of the reasons why I've always been confused when there seems to be overlapping Taylor Sheridan shows, 'cause I'm like, couldn't you just spread these out so that there's twelve months of Taylor Sheridan shows and you don't have anybody ever trying to cancel. That sounds like a like a white The playoffs are here, and you can predict the action all the way to the finals with FanDuel Predicts. Follow all the playoff dishes, swishes, wishes, and misses. Predict the spread, the total points, and even the game winner. Sign up for FanDuel Predicts and predict it from the couch. Offered by FanDuel Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commission merchant. 18 plus trading derivatives involve significant risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Manage your activity with our consumer protection tool . This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need WeatherTech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those weather tech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably gonna step into the summer. You don't need weather tech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit Weathertech.com today. Problem. Let's talk a little bit about Top Chef and and just do some After Dark, huh? Yeah, do you wanna so we should we just wrap up Euphoria? Oh yeah next week? You could keep Euphoria. Well I I like After Dark for you for it. It mirrors Nate's last moments. Well should we I mean we could touch on it. I feel like we should hit it harder next week. Yeah, but let's just I I wanted to just say I I am up to date on Euphoria as are you. I am up to date on Euphoria. I'd like to text you to let you know I am. This is the penultimate episode of the season and likely the series, I would imagine. Um and for the first time , perhaps in this show's history, I was bored. I I I've been using that as a bit of like a little bit of a metric, but I just found despite the intensity of the episode, I felt like I had seen these scenes before, like there had been we were repeating a lot of beats. And I thought cinematically there was some brilliant stuff in it. I would watch Coleman Domingo and Zendaya as I have in the special that they did where the two of them talk about addiction and and spirituality and salvation and redemption extensively. Uh, I think that their relationship, Ali, Ali and and Ru's relationship is fascinating. And I thought Ali's, you know, sort of origin story and him going through the pandemic, losing people that he's the um sponsor of was heartbreaking and not only heartbreaking. One of the things I mean this is a compliment of compliment about this season of television is that there have been a number of fully formed, pretty compelling television shows just tossed out on the table like stuff you find in your pocket. And the shooting-like Natasha Leon makes a cameo as as a prostitute living with Ollie for a while. Like the cutting and like the banter and the energy and the electricity coursing through that is absent when Maddie is on like page like like the 70th iteration of I'm a pimp, but I'm also a manager's assistant, but now I'm a pimp again. And I I think ultimately like Levinson probably had to like unite the threads in some ways. I didn't know he was going to try, honestly. Lexi narcs out everybody and then Maddie narcs out everybody thing. I I just really hit my head against that. I was like, I I don't think these people would be that naive. I don't think Maddie would be so naive as to like idly tell Alamo that Rue is now working for the DEA. Yeah. That's fucking crazy. Um But didn't you feel it coming when she just brought it up herself when Rue blurted it out? Yes. And I felt it coming when that scene went on for l a long time, being like, obviously this is going to get away from Lexi as she just passes this along. And and not to carry water for it, I was starting to feel like in this episode there is a version of or there's a defense of the show baked into the idea that the Holly the the Hollywood writer from the comfort of her very nice apartment with beautiful old film posters that she clearly bought at on posterati, great place to browse. No ads, but I like it. Um that all of this madness is springing from her imagination in the Well and that was a s season two element was like you know Lexi writing a play about season two basically. But yeah, I I think I had the last time we talked about euphoria, I had sounded the alarm that or maybe I when I was kind of monologuing about it, which point I on the podcaster in your life. On the podcast where I mistakenly said that Jesus Christ saw the burning bush and not Moses, which goes to show you what Quaker education does for your biblical studies. Was that the light within? Yeah. Was it the burning bush? I uh I just thought that the crime stuff was starting to reach its it was getting a little high up in the atmosphere and losing oxygen. And and I I think this has been proven true. Like bringing together Alamo, Nas , Nate , Maddie, Cassie, and by extension, Rue and the Lori stuff . I just think it's just like he I think the biggest compliment you could give the show is that it is a wildly expensive, wildly a udacious, improvisatory exercise by someone who had not a blank check, but had a lot of open road and a lot of big stars and a very small window in which to get them all together and to see what happens. It's diminishing returns in terms of just um compelling entertainment, I think is is fair to say. I I do want to just circle back to the idea that Coleman Domingo is so alive in everything that he does. And the show , I don't know if it's a full show, but about a uh recovering addict uh who has become a sponsor trying to keep people alive during COVID. I would watch that show. Sure. And the the the short story version of it we got was incredibly compelling. And also has something. This is not really a fair audience thing to do, I think, consistently. But it's but sometimes I feel like you can feel a creator lean in, you know, to things that that are touching the third one. I mean an Alamo origin story too. I'm sure you I know that you were like probably rolling your eyes a little bit at that, but I thought that had energy and I I thought it had POV. It had like it had juice. Yeah, it had juice. And so and and that is a marked uh distinction, I would say, from the scenes that increasingly to me feel like outtakes from like a Bugsy Malone movie where kids are playing dress-up. Well, and then you get to the Nate part, which is just like I I I suppose on one hand, I can make a defense for it where it's like, you know what, like? Like there is no such thing as character armor on the show and uh or plot armor or whatever the term is, but like just because it's Jacob Balordi doesn't mean that he's gonna escape from a burial. Uh, you know, that was a one of those character arcs that makes you uh frankly wonder like what the relationship between the creator and the performer is. It's aggressive. Um because he doesn't really have a lot to do other than get mutilated this season and then he dies. You know, like I and I need your context for this because uh we touched on this, not watching the first two seasons, I am completely unaware of that character is a bad fucking guy. And like you could say, so was this justice. But that's the thing is that as Rue and Ollie talk about redemption and you know how do you feel about like the fentanyl you've brought over has killed people and what what is what is salvation and redemption in the eyes of that? Like I you know, obviously Nate I think that might be what they're trying to say is that like this is a guy who didn't deserve to get out of the hole. I don't know. I mean, like that is also like I I would be very curious to know what Sam Levinson said about that. You know, maybe at the end of the season he'll talk a little bit more openly about some of this stuff. You know, you can also speak to Alordi's popularity as an actor and his his busy schedule and wonder how much of this was like we have X amount of time with Nate. It doesn't work. He's not gonna be able to show up at Lori's house with two guns to save Cassie or something like that. Here's what we're gonna do with it. But that felt like a very small plot, like a subplot that just got extended for seven hours. And it's it was an unsatisfying conclusion to it I I hate the Maddie and Cassie story more. Okay. I find it just completely torturous to watch and un and so so deeply uninteresting, especially because it just kind of this episode just undoes everything that happened the episode before. It's like the she's popular on OnlyFans, now she's gonna be in a TV show, now she's not on a TV show, now she's gonna go back on OnlyFans. And it's like I I don't I don't find that particularly compelling drama for characters. There's also just something missing there where so like was c I thought Cassie was sending Nate money. Was he not using that money to even put it Or had she stopped because during the She was like, This is awesome, I'm getting so much money, but I'm still living in like a courtyard apartment. I got I didn't but maybe the money stopped concurrent with the brief pause on her OnlyFans account during the city. I don't know I I just don't understand like what happened there. Like the I I I don't either. And I will say again, you know who you know who's giving one of my favorite performances on the show is Sharon Stone. Which is like, you're right, who gives a shit ? Yeah. The Brian Grazer cameo. Yeah. There are a lot of I mean, there are a lot of good ideas and good performances tossed tossed out here. Yeah. But but what is it building towards? And I guess it's building towards like most entertainments, a massive shootout. Yeah. Um you know. I thought I meant that it it ended with like a a really good like fuck cliffhanger or like Faye , you know, a little out in front of her skis intellectually, probably as a a c a character, being like, I don't really know who to trust. I feel betrayed by Rue. I'm gonna wake Wayne up now. There's gonna be like this drama. So excited for that. Excited for the finale. When when you when you're faced with a choice between an old friend and a Nazi, what can we do? It's kind of like voting in a Texas senatorial race. Let's do Top Chef crash out season. Wow. This is spoilers for the most recent episode of Top Chef. Yeah. Uh I And I would say this up episode was so upsetting Kaya's not even here today. Yes. She she has she has taken a personal day to just think about Seeger and what he went through and whether that moose killed anyone. The chicken liver bate. The moose,, yeah not the snake. I enjoyed this a lot as television. Okay. Did you enjoy it as top chef? His well, his behavior? In the f in the af after the uh the elimination cook, which takes place yeah uh over the course of several uh m multiple days but then ultimately they have to cook in the woods in the heat. I yeah I it didn't bot that part didn't bother me at all. Like I'm excited to talk about it. It was unexpected, especially for a show that has increasingly trended towards actually, we can all get along, actually, I am here to make friends. So to see someone behave in such an unconsidered way was almost refreshing . Um I do think that the emails we got um back like asserting that Seeger is actually a pretty cool guy, um, all of them came from, I guess, Chef Seeger at the end of the yeah, they were people from I think Chicago who were like this that was actually not representative of who he is. I would say that it is. I mean he still could be a good guy. I think he just has a temper, yeah. But yeah, yeah. I would say so. And so to see him crash out was a a burst of energy in a show that hasn't had a ton of adrenaline this season. We haven't had a moment like that in years. In years. And the judges were shocked by it. And it was such an insane hill to die on because as you alluded to, he served melting chicken livers on a hundred degree day. I think he would see, you know, pride comes before the fall. And there was several moments where, you know, whether it was the whole hog cook that sent him home the first time, or uh this particular one where he was so confident that the gelatin was gonna make his child And then I think like him trying to like in fact let's go to the tape on them. That was wild. Uh hasn't never worked in the history. Nobody's ever done that. I don't think anybody's ever been like, let's look at the byla ws of Top Chef. Also, uh he m ust tried to take Jonathan down with him. He's also a good cook. He might be a good guy, as his friends attest. I don't. This is a TV show. And being a good cook and a good guy doesn't have anything to do with winning the very specific peculiarities of top chef, which involve cooking a dish to the rules, but also to the technical specifications and arbitrary likings of a well-established panel of judges. Yes. Let alone Vox Populi of like a bunch of people showing up and being like, I don't want to eat that. Yes. You lost on that So that that was wild, and it was particularly wild because as you just alluded to, he shouldn't have been there anyway. Like the show messed up earlier by giving him a glide path back onto the show that almost no contestant has ever been granted the grace of the big I don't even know if it was really that much of a glide path. I just think it is the way that they edited the series this year to allow for Last Chance Kchenit to have suspense also me meant that there was like a three week liminal space of is Jen on this show, is Seeger on the show? They were called who's in Last Chance Kitchen? They were caught very off guard by their own rules of a different sort. And I think Daniel Feinberg and the Hollywood Reporter has a pretty good blow-by-blow of the screw-up. But basically, like continuing to tell Jen that she could hang out for as long as she wanted to, even though she couldn't per form on the show, and also wasn't really lighting the place on fire anyway, created a circumstance where Seeger is outright eliminated, skips last chance kitchen, where he probably would have been defeated by Rhoda, and then acts in this episode like he is entitled to his own. Well Justin could have taken Seeger's spot. Justin could have just been like, yes, I will go instead of Jen. So all that, but the bigger uh issue is the show's clear ly just ravaged budget is really, really showing up on the screen now. And I know that we spent time two weeks ago being like they never go outside anymore and then they were literally outside sweating, watching their um parfaits melt this week. But there's different versions of outside and being outside. And a week in which they go to Asheville, which in some ways is the show at its best, being like as chefs, we have a unique role. The Asheville part was was fantastic. The Asheville part was okay. And here's why. The Asheville part made me want to go to Asheville. 100% successful. Yeah. So if that is the goal to both highlight a place that looked awesome and also highlight its recent struggles and suggest what we can do and why we shouldn't forget about it. So mission accomplished. In terms of the flow of top chef, I would say an episode in which they're like, we're not going to do a quick fire. You guys are going to get into unbranded vans because we lost the BMW sponsorship and drive two and a half hours to a town in which you will drive by three to four interesting sounding restaurants and eat snacks at one with no judges or the host present felt pretty rinky dink to me. Like have the courage of your convictions and fucking film there or tell Kristen to get in one of these cars and go there too. So don't be like drive by I mean, this is what I do when people visit LA where I'm like, that's a pretty cool small plates restaurant. And my guests are like, should we go there? And I'm like, no, we couldn't get in. Like what what purpose ha does that serve for anyone other than my own ego? Do you know what I mean? Like that was insane. And then later Do we eat there if you want to eat at 445 or 10 PM? Yes. You're welcome to it, but I'll be in bed at both those times, weirdly. Um, but like then when Rhoda's like, I made Filipino food because I was inspired by this restaurant. That's my restaurant. Like, okay, could we see it? Oh, you couldn't afford to show it to us? It's a strange thing because lot has happened this season where I feel like they have been battling the elements. As my wife pointed out the other day when we were chatting about this, she was like, you know, it goes back, you remember the finale of of Denver where like people's bread didn't rise 'cause they were cooking on the top of a mountain. You know, like I think about a constant. This this uh this is not the first time the top chef has made elements and uh an element of the show. The rain and the Portland season. And there's also you know, I think I am being a little bit n um more easily annoyed by uh, you know, and now everybody switch foods with the person to your left or that was despicable. You know, the and now mystery diners are voting and we're not, or now like there's a lot like remember when they were like, and now let us bring out our guest judge for quickfire, a guy no one's ever heard of. Congratulations. You really, you really , which I know was a passion project for Gail and I have the show go there, was in my memory largely shot on a soundstage. Yes, it was. And North Carolina and South Carolina, which seems hot as fuck, has been ten shots, like ten shoots out like at a NASCAR track or in the middle of a public park or in Asheville in the forest, or not Asheville in the forest, because they went back to the forest. On the Appalachian Trail with a snake. That just seems like why why'd you guys do that? I mean I guess maybe they listened to us and we were like get the fuck outside and they were like you asked for it. Now it's hot as shit and nobody's moose congeals. Like, I guess we should take some accountability there. Not that we can dictate what top chef does, but I just feel like there's been and and Feinberg and the Hollywood Reporter is a really good piece, writes about these two institutions that he like I I agree with Dan. I wish every Monday had a top chef and every Wednesday had a survivor. I would be a happier person if it was like a 12 month a year thing. But And which night are the Sheridan shows running in this twelve month scenario? Uh they just run on my vision pro. There you go. I think that in some ways, like they've iterated too much to keep up with maybe perceived Joneses. I don't eration. I think I just think there's a there's a budget thing going on that we're not qualified to talk about or even ask about. And I think the the the the answer to the question if you ask it too loudly is do you still want the show? And you know, it is the only reality show left , uh competition show left. No, it it's the only competition show on Bravo. It didn't be. I mean Project Runway and remember I I was still a fan of work of art, the art world one with Jimmy. I mean couldn't Magical Elves sell it to food chann Like food network? Uh I I I have no idea. It clearly still works on some level for the the Bravo Comcast brand. Yeah. It's just they want it to work in this way. And I think you can see the like this is a small thing because we watch it well, we either watch screeners or we watch it on Peacock, but it currently the show is this season the show is premiering on Bravo Linear on Mondays at a time TBD Each week. So much so that I I saw Kristen on social media being like, Don't forget, we're on at nine thirty tonight for some reason. Like they're not loving that aspect of it. 'Cause it's like summer house stuff, right? I I would assume. Um but I do think it needs a rethink because this these this host and these judges can make worthwhile television and the finale still could be good. It's not their fault that they tried to iterate by having brothers and a couple and it amounted to the bigger I find that the judges have been marginalized this season, too. There's way too much noise going on around them. I don't feel like I'm hearing the thing that I love about this show and probably my greatest engagement with it was this sort of run where I think they encourage chefs earlier in the season to cook quote their food. Yeah. And to you can think it's cheesy to be like, I'm telling a story or this is about like my background, but it actually produced compelling televisual storytelling to have somebody be like, I've grown up through this, you know, French culinary tradition, but now I'm really gonna start cooking the stuff that my mother used to make me, but put it put my spin on it. Or I'm bringing technique to something that traditionally is very rustic, or whatever it is. I feel like Tom and Gail and Kristen and then at various points, you know, before Padma were really like, you're on top chef, fucking impress us. Like do it. And now I feel like there's just been way too many goofy things that have stopped someone like for instance Sherry or Jonathan, who I just think Sherry is only now starting to be like, I'm making this fritter because this is this thing that and nobody's ever had this before or whatever. And you know, even Lawrence, who I don't is very like demonstrative about what's going on, but has been cooking this amazing food all year, I don't even feel like they're celebrating it. I don't feel like they're well because I think that the ceiling this season has just been wildly lower. Now again, you cannot this is the vagaries of a competition show. You cannot guarantee a Buddha, a Gregory, a trip. Survivor fifty just had this where it was like all the really great players kind of got voted off and I think Aubrey's good, but like you just have like at the end a sort of weird mishmash of people. Yeah. And I think that there was a moment earlier in the season where we're like, oh my God, Rhoda is another um like a Melissa or someone who's just like uh Melissa King, like who's just like day one, oh my God, you are rising to every occasion and you're surprising yourself and we're on a generational run here. Or, you know, you hope for someone like a Tristan who catches fire later and you're like, oh my God, the prince who was promised was here all along. Yes. You can't guarantee that year after year. But what we're creeping towards now is Lawrence is gonna win, which is deserving. I don't know about that anymore. But but I but but what he has execute what he has done is a very, very technically precise and satisfying execution of what you were talking about, which is like I grew up eating this kind of food in a Cantonese household, and I am going to be able to execute a version of it that is elevated. Yeah, like a fry catfish on a bow is like really cool. And he baked the bread. That was awesome. That was an incredibly compelling performance, performance on Top Chef, in which you, the viewer who can't taste the food, seize the degree of difficulty and can just see that they nailed the execution, and that's satisfying as a viewer. The rest of them are just kind of stumbling their way to the finish line and maybe someone will step up. But I I find it very hard to imagine that there is going to be a level of excitement, exhilaration, or inspiration in a finale for the way this season has played out. And I don't I think it would be a mistake to I think Rhoda Lawrence and Sherry is a good final three. It would be a decent final Obviously, you know, um the loss of Anthony hurts. That was a bummer. That sucked. But I think that it would be a mistake to walk away from the season and be like, yeah, you know what? Sometimes like uh was the guy that won Denver, like perfectly like Joe. Seems like a really good guy, good chef, good on TV. But like not necessarily the heights of ambition or technical . Or maybe not the drama of Brooke and Kristen or whatever. Okay. So you can't guarantee that every year. There have been down seasons in terms of the excellence on display or whatever, but I think it would be a mistake to focus on that at the expense of the fact that the clear, clear, clear diminishment of ambition and budget is hurting the final product of the show. And I don't know what to do about that because we're lucky to still have it. Yeah. But I don't know. I it's I feel like that's a good idea I would like to also like at some point we have gotten so many emails about the Padma show. Oh and did they have budget? Maybe they did. I think it might be worth checking out a little bit more thoroughly to see. Uh it's it's odd that it was running concurrently. Like, you know. I mean not odd, aggressive. Aggressively. Uh let's wrap it up there. Yeah. Monday, this is Euphoria finale. Yeah, and so there's a couple other shows I want to check out. Yes. I don't know for Monday, but we have uh Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed on Apple. Uh we have the Amade us show that is on Starz that was on UK last year. I feel like there was there's probably others. I s I I feel like we need to also address the fact that like we're getting a lot of new shows. Yeah. And it's tiring. Tire it's hard to finish them. Did you watch the Burroughs? I I did did. n't watch all of it, but I watched like three episodes of it. Is it weird to see actors that we think of as relatively young people be like, yeah. Yeah. It's very well done though. A friend was telling me about the show and was like, well, you know, there's a great scene in Bill Pullman's retirement home. And I'm like, I'm gonna need you to stop there. It's true. It's true. Kai, Sarah, thank you. Kaya, thank you. Uh Andy, thank you. Kaya' comsing back for the top chef finale. That's why she's not here today. Thank God. Uh we'll see you guys on Monday. Everybody have a great weekend. You have a great weekend. Yeah. I include you in that. Thank you. All the brand skis