Lost and Game of Thrones Retrospective

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Same day delivery. it's on prrime. visit ammazon dot com slash prime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas. terms apply I need support for staff to clear the room Stand up and walk. Now. Hello and welcome to the watch. My name is Chris Ryide. I am an editor at theringer dot com and joining me in the Pace Center.. It's my shaman. Jo. Hell yeah. Joe, thank you so much for doing this. You're coming right off of a prestige TV recording. Please look out for my lizard. She's on a walk aboutout. I just I love what you've done with the place here. We're over here in the Sickam War Studios Joe's join me today, Andy will be back next week. We're not gonna do a recording on Monday. I'm giving Andy Memorial Day off from Euphoria. What a kind boss you are. I want to clip back for him. But we will be back. may if something really super significant happens on Euphoria, maybe Andy and I will record on Tuesday. Defined significant plot lines converge?. Diga Beri has something to do. Jules and Diga Boldi show up in like a similar scene. Yeah. Jules has lines. that makes sense? Exactly. But today we're gonna talk a little bit of Survivor. A little bit of the Burs, which is a new show on Netflix that I checked out two episodes of. I you too. G I want to talk to you obviously about Widows Bay Andy and I will hit it harder next week But I had a fun idea for us where I think episodes four and five are elite television two of the best episodes I've seen this year. and it got me going down a little bit of a Best episodes run of TV series. And let me tell you, that's a fun little list to look at Um I don't often think of things in terms of like the runs that they're on. That's more of like a bill. Mind thinging But I really enjoyed thinking about these and there were some really obvious like ones that jumped out. and we're gonna talk a little bit of sururvivor In fact, just good for the sake of newsiness. And you can hit us up at the watch at sppotify. com and you can follow us at the watchatchPod underscore On Instagram, Ringer dash TV, we can also watch prerestige TV on YouTube and listen to Sun Spotify or wherever you like, honestly. Transistor radio, maybe. Andan and are still broadcasting from a far away time. How are you? Are you good? I'm great. How are you?? I had to do my spiel. That's great. This is my fifth podcast of the week. So I'm feeling in the groove. I know that you're probably there too. but we've both found time to watch a little bit of sururvivor So spoilers for anybody Hasn't watched the finale yet, I guess. I had to stay up quite late to watch it because it's Paramount pllus until the wee hours. You guys just did a House of our crossover with Tyson and Riley earlier in the week. so I know that you're you're locked in. what did you think of the finale where you? fan of how Things were executed. How do you usually watch Survivor? That's a question I have for you. I usually turn it on at ten PM on Paramount plus. and then I will be completely candid with you and our listeners and say that after about twelve seasons that we started really watching it in earnest in my household during the pandemic. Yeah After about like twelve or thirteen or fourteen seasons We may have gotten a little bit quick with the trigger finger when it comes to skipping the physical challenges. Oh yeah. So we get it down to about like forty minutes in episodes by just being like, we're we're social players I'm interested in what happens before and after the challenges. Do I need to unlock like maybe I don't have the ellite tier Paramount plus because I thought it was like it only hit. I thought I had to watch it on like Paramount liive TV But maybe it's just I needed to wait for East Coast after midnight for it to be. Yes. It's I think it goes up at like ten, ten, fifteen on Paramount plus. But like many nights, I have been sitting there like refreshing like it's getting too late to start. It's getting too late to start. Okay. I thought when they said it will post the next day, they meant like the next day. So I've been I've been watching it as appointment television on Paramount pllus like Starting it up right at eight o'clock. I have to be home and I've been like watching the first. Do you have cable? No, I'm like. No. Oh wow. Yeah. I don't. I have just wow. so wow that I still have cable. I don't know. Yeah Yeah. like I watch, I don't know what yeah, because I don't watch a lot of network stuff and if I do I'll like watch it next day on Hulon That's how I watch Marsalls. you know. The only thing is like you don't want to get spoiled for survivor and stuff like that. so I've been Watching in like old school like before VCR television. I've just been 'causeuse you can't record off Paramount Plus. so I was just like, I have to be home at eight o'clock. Did you grow up in a the channel stays on one channel all night family kind of. Well, I mean, they used to bl like program in a way. National news. Yeah L did you guys a one new There was like jeopardy into Yeahah, absolutely. But we u But for this, I went to a finale party at someone's house. Loly. And it was like, I don't know, a room full of people and I knew two people The point we're making about skipping through physical challenge is, sururvivor, I don't think you need to watch every single second with like all of your attention. I agree. And so to watch it with a rowdy room of people where they were talking over, usually talking over television bothers me. it did not because like I don't need every single second, especially in the Jeff patter, the live finale interview stuff And, you know, spoilers for what's happening, right We were all very invested specifically in certain people not winning. Yeah. So once Tiff was out, which was a huge bummer for the room. Yes Everyone except for one person was Tam Aubrey. So like we were yelling and very excited and I have not watched Survivor in that way. It felt like I was in a b or something like that where it's just sort of like everyone's blood was up and they were really excited No because a couple I feel like there's been I'd have to like look at the actual champions over the last couple of years, but it does feel like there've been a lot of Even if going into the finale, you thought there was more of a debate, like people running the table, like people winning like, you know, eight, ten, whatever it is, ten, nothing in the final jury. And this one felt like a little bit more like I didn't think Aubrey could lose to Jonathan and Joe, but I also wasn't certain Aubrey was going to win if that makes sense Um I feel the way about sururvivor finales that I feel about the Super Bowl, which is If my team is not playing, I treat it as like sort of a grand piece of entertainment, but not as something I'm as invested in. And I get a little melancholy during Survivor finale because I really like having Like a regular Wednesday television. Yeah There's two things to talk about. There's the actual gameplay and who won Yeah And then there is the snafoo that occurred that basically happened when survivor finales offtten cut back and forth between the game that has been taped in Fiji or on Fiji. and then ten months ago, whatever it is. And then the live LA studio finale show that Jeff is hosting. So was that like a paramount or something? I mean, where Yeah, was the paramount. Yeah. And this year, this season, season fifty, which has been this sort of coronation for the show. Jeff screwed up It seems like Jeff screwed up. I don't know wh he definitely is. I mean I don't know if somebody was in his ear being like and now tell him like send Rz out to the ur or whatever, but we were about to get our fire making competition. I hate fire making. I think it's a really unfair way of deciding who goes to final three, but it's tradition. It was going to be Rizzo versus Jonathan. I think everybody Imagine Jonathan was going to probably When Jonathan could like start a fire andacing his bid. his freaking homelander. someomeone I wasing with was like Jonathan should start his fire at the fire making just like looking at Rizzo and just like because he doesn't need to concentrate at all. like can doing his. But Jeff does a little stand up interview with Rzzo and then in the middle of it, Before the fire making takes place, he's doing all like, we're about to see fire making and Rizo, why don't you join the jury And It was described to me in a text before I saw it was Make sure you watch tonight. There's a Lala Land mooonlight mo. Yeah, yeah. Now I thought what that meant was like Jeff got the count wrong for the wal vote which obviously would be very difficult But what did you what was kind of going through your mind when you saw this happen? Were you like, is this a technical problem? So the people I was watching with, we started late so that we could fast forward through commercials. and the person who was on the fast forward, everyone in the room started accusing him of like missing the fire, you know, because it was like clear. as soon as Rizzo comes out and there's an empty stool with the rest of the jury, you're like, okay. But like what did we miss I was talking to Tyson and Ashley because they werere here recording Potaspoen. and I was like, what Was it like in the room, you know And basically because so many people had to do their job incorrectly for that to have happened. Yes Um Every single PA, every single producer, every single person just like let this happen because they play the episode in the room on the big screen. So like wow, they're watching it. and it was clear that they had not shown firem yet Tyson said he was sort of zoning out because they had already watched the finale. so like he was not was not He was like he's like, wait, didn't they not show fire making yet? He said Ashley and Tyson said that Dee, who we couldn't see on the camera, she was like the far left of the jury, that she was like gesturing che to be like that Rizzo kind of tried to say like, did I like whatever But yeah, they I guess they cued Jeff too early, but I still don't understand how it was allowed to go like no one stopped him. It's also funny that it's not like a Saturday night live like we'll catch it for the West cooast thing. I guess once the cat's out of bag, the cat's out of the bag. He did so many bits about it throughout the rest of. I guess that would have killed him. Yeah exactly. But yeah as far as the winner so the spoilers is again obviously into this, but Aubrey wins W So who did you want to win Barbery? Oh, oh, entirely? Yeah I wasas like was this ant a certain point I was really hoping S Siri would win Yeah because I wanted to see To me, her gameplay is the other side of being a physical Yeah beast and mental beast and camp beast. Yeah. And she's just like One of the reasons why I skip challenges is I'm like, I don't actually think people Siri' never really held accountable for not being good to challenges. You know what I mean? Like Rizo either. R There's really no like, hey, you're holding us back. Now every once in a while in the beginning of seasons, you'll be like, Hey, we need to win some challenges, we need to win some food. Yeah. you're out As it goes on, I feel like the physical challenges are really just for the immunity necklace So it's like I'll find out who won, but it doesn't matter how people performed U So I was cheering for her. I think she obviously seiled out because at a certain point. You have to sort of say like if we go to the final three ofan she's going to win. I think she got out on like a and and an unfair twist, but the two twists of the game where they randomly divided the tribe into a you know, mini tribe. Yes. That's what like screwed Genevve out of the game earlier this season when they did it and that's what screw Sari out of the game because if she had had access to everyone to weave her spell. off course, which she used to protect Ozzie, her rider die all season. Yes. Ozzie would not have been voted out. If Ozzie wasn't voted out, then Serei is less vulnerable, you know, and like the Rizo like Rizzo didn't want to go to the final three with Serea. but Ozzie genuinely did. And so I kind of and you know, she had Tiff. so I feel like If Ozzie hadn't been so dumb and if they hadn't divided the tribes the way they did, like there was a path for her the end it was narrow p. I there she was like ever like practice fire making Like if you're Sri and you're like that good at social, do you think you're even like, okay, so like ' she's always gonna eventually be like, who's been running this game? Oh, like me S is. So I was cheoting for her. I was happy frabery. And you know, in retrospect, I think it's useful to ask you about this like We can watch television sometimes and lose ourselves in it, but then a lot of times we'll watch a show and we'll kind of be like, I kind of see the seams or the stitching and where we're going with this. it's actually kind of a useful way of looking at the buroughs Um And yeah You know, now that you know Aubrey won, it's been obvious, I guess for like six episodes that she was going to win because they really started getting Well, she kept saying, now is win my game again. She said that like four or five episodes in a row. I will say this and I We do have proof of this. Mallory and I entered a sururvivor pool this season the same pool. I entered it last season. I did win last season. We did not we did not win this season. We got second place though. but Part of like the pool is you have to pick your You know, you your final champion. Okay. We picked Aubrey only because in the very first episode, there was that extremely weird Genevieve and Aubrey conversation that just stuck out as so bizarre. It was like it can only be one of us Yeah. Yeah. And it was just sort of like We thought it had to be one of them. We were like, iss either Jennify or Aubrey, othertherwise, why is this seing minded L like sea sweet Denziens exactly. I was just sort of like playay from the middle. There's just like no reason this scene is here because it was just so awkwardly shot and edited that unless they were trying to cede something from the very beginning for one of them. and we weren't sure which. We picked Aubrey. We also picked Genevieve to go far. She didn't but like so that's why we didn't win. That was my only editing clue early on but otherwise Aubrey wasn't getting like a great early on. So I I don't know In terms of like for a while, we were like, oh is it Christian? becausecause they're focusing so much on Christian. He's just such a good narrator. he get Hevven, you know, because he's so entertaining, etcetera, et cetera. I was worried it was Jonathan Um, But yeah complicated in terms of I really love analyzing a reality show edit to try to like see what stories they're trying to create It was especially challenging, I think with Survivor fififty because they were reallyally trying to craft these Um Rizzo Remember when you lost a fire making you know, they're like, what can we craft where we can use archival footage to really like stitch together the history of survivor and make this person's downfall feel like connected to previous games? So they were working overtime to craft certain sub narratives inside of the winner narrative, do you know? Yeah, they maybe spent to my taste, a little too much time indulging like some character work that wound up not really paying out off like the coach thing kind of We're out. it's welcome for me pretty quickly. feel like Yeah, like Christian iss an amazing player who I just think is a great play by play guy for Survivor. but like ultimately got so much camera time. But then it's like, how early do you wantan to start tipping your hat towards Aubrey?ight It's almost better that they did it this way? Well, and I think it's interesting because one of the complaints, especially after the Zach Brown episode is when people were sort of ranking conffessionals They're like Zach Prown has more airtime than Tiff. Yeah. And then but Tiff was someone who went a long way in the game. So they saved a lot of the TF stuff for later Yeah. And that's a strategic edit, but it also, you know, pissed a lot of people off because they're like, why aren't you showing these various players at all and get Zach Brown the fuck out of here, which I bring Mrter Beast on. Tyson's over the course of the season and advice that Tyson has given again and again on his podcast is If you're auditioning for Survivor, the number one thing you need to be able to do, is exactly what you're saying is tell a story So if you can convince them that when you sit down for a confessional you'll have a really fun and dynamic way of describing what has happened or what you're thinking. That's the number one thing they're looking for. Yeah, they're looking for like peoplee who look nice like in a swimsuit. yeah, they're looking people good at challenges. Yeah, they're looking for, you know quirky characters. But that narration is something they need from everyone in the group. Yeah, especially. I think also part of the problem was that they had such good orators on this season was that tribals w up being dominated by like the same four people like in a good way for television, but probably at tiff's expense maybe a little bit. Yeah Yeah. So yeah. I mean, I thought it was a really entertaining season. Like I said, like there's always like a little bit of a like the finale is not actually survivor, you know to me. Yeah. I guess it's been a while since we've had just like a gosmacking amazing I mean, I will say The way they edited Aubrey going into her final immunity challenge where she's just sort of like these guys don't want me to go to the final three, so I need to win this immunity. And then as soon as the room, I was watching and saw what the challenge was, peopleople were up off their feet Be they were like she could win. She could win it. Yeah, yeah. That's not something that Jonathan's gonna dominate.. So it was just sort of like, and did production do that because they wanted Aubrey to go far, Who knows, but That was to me was the most exciting. like tiff losing The biggest like, o man, that we stuck with these chocate books. then and then Aubrey getting a challenge she could actually win with. L Joe is like, I never lied until I lied once. I know that was like his whole story. made his whole thing like I lied when I needed to. And I was like, where did the honor integrity thing go, Joe? You were sitting on a boat the entire season and being like, don't lie in me This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a fifty page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online makes sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responssees set upp required compatibility and availability varies eighteen plus All right, let's talk a little bit about the Bros. Yeah because This is one that's been kind of looming and I was waiting for like maybe a huge drumbeat of press and trailers and hype for it. And, you know, I have this long running confonusion with how Netflix chooses to like announce itself. And I think They don't need to do that really because they have the platform. so shows wind up just becoming wildly successful with or without like a traditional promo This is from Jeffrey Adlas and Will Matthews, who did a very well regarded dark crystal. I liked it. Rebootitten off, how would you describe? Imaginations? Yeah called what was it called? Oh, the Age of Resistance. And they created this series. It's executive produced by the Duffer Brothers who this is their second series that they've EPed for Netflix this year, the other one being something very bad is about to happen Aout you were going to, I can't aboutbout to happen. which I loved. so They've shown themselves able to guuide shows, I think they definitely have like, I think more successfully in some of these like, you know, the Weon Bting off deal or whatever. like there's just a real Duffer Brothers ethos that seems clear inside of these shows. It feels Yeah. and I was alm surised surr watching these first two episodes. So just as like a brief the long line is in a seemingly picturesque retirement community A group of unlikely heroes must band together to stop an otherworldly threat from stealing the one thing they don't have time this is basically set at a villages esque retirement community, but with maybe few MGa inclined seniors who are trading STDs I don't know if anybody has ever seen the villages documentary, but it's quite a thing. The show opens with a very like ambbleland out suitcase. Dee Wallace, who people know from ET. Yeah and Ed Beckley Junior and what seems to be an alien and lots of hints and lots of easaster eggs and stuff. And then turns into a really well observed occasionally amusing really well acted given the cast uh show that is basically like fine for forty five minutes and then has in each episode like a pretty what the fuck? Yeah last five minutes. Yeah. And so the duffers know what they're doing Alfred Melina plays the main character Sam Cooper, who's a widower who's just moved to the Boroughs. Alfrered Frigan Woodard plays an ex investigative journalist who is living there with her husband Art who is played by Clark Peters from the Wire, who plays like a stoner. who's kind of just doing yoga and playing golf, but also some other stuff Dennis O'Hare plays a terminally terminally ill resident of the and then Gina Davis is somehow qualifying for senior citizen now. so They keep iterating like sixty we're in our sixties. We're spry, young. We' We're just getting ahead of the curge. Yeah What is Gleman also very inside of this Yeah, uh T your point like, you know, when I watched the trailer I was like, wow, this incredible cast that they've assembled and also like, do I feel my age that, you know, these actors Y, especially when you see like ill Pullman and Gina Davis and you're thinking about a Lague of their own or something like that. You know, like these actors who we grew up with were like, o, they're populating the retirement community. Is this what people felt like when they watched coocoon in the eighties or whatever, you know, This is very stranger Th meets cocoon energy The Amblin, you know swing that they're making, which they obviously made with Stranger thingsings stuff rattling on the shelves. Yeah. All of that stuff is here, the cul deac, et cetera Um But it's so well acted. Yeah. And I was just sort of like I was th I was like, if this show were a bunch of sixty something that I've not seen in other things, I'd be far less interested. But sixty something influencers popped popped into TV. Oh my God. Yeah. The TikTokers are going to get old man that's that stuff. but Alfred Eelina is so good. Holman so good. Epicee Junior so good. Jan Davis, Alfrey Wedard Clark Peters fantastic. And so it's just, you know It's just really well done and a script that I'm not sure is and the other question I have, we've only watched the first few episodes But This is the perfect kind of fun theory show. There's just a lot of mysteries. It's very like, don't worry, darling, what's happening here sort of thing But it's a binge drop. And so by the time that some of your listeners are listening to this, they've already watched the full season and they know what happens in the show. We still are like, what's in the walls and where is the key and what's happening? you know? That's like I was kind of thinking about that because we're about to talk about these two episodes of Widows Bay that have been coming out once it's a weekly episodic drop and the way in which onene episode can build on another and now like I think anticipation for the sixth episode of Widows Bay will be at like this fever pitch after these last two And you just don't get that with this. And in some ways, I feel like they almost write these shows knowing that I'm not sure some of these things get sold to Netflix and may get recut lately, but like this was probably, I think, if it comes from the Duffers like brought through the Duffers deal that they had with Netflix with the preisting comp guys who worked for Netflix sure Yeah. Yeah. It really does feel like if you cut together all of the domestic Alfred Melina scenes of him having like reveries of his late wife played by Jake Kasimmeric. Is that? Kasmeric? Yeah who people knowam. Yeah. Or Alfy Woodard sitting at her breakfast nook kind of thinking about stuff like That's domestic drama that I don't know if you would be able to distinguish necessarily episode one from episode three because there's a lot of repeated kind of gestures and scenes. Yeah Yeah. But then all the stuff that's like lore and the weirdness of stealing the Rose courartts. Yeah. and all of Gina Davis' stuff from her arts and craft studios getting stolen and There is, like you said, don't worry Darling, like a little bit of a Stepford Wives element to what's going on with the guy who runs this. Yeah, exactly. All the stuff with sereraphim, which you know is a basasically alien presence angels. Yeah which is what they call their Alexa in this place. and All of the condos are kind of hardwired with this But Alphfred Molina very specifically ripped his out of the wall. on this engineer. he's got their little special skills. we've got a doctor, we've got an investigative journalist and we've got Dana Davis who's into crystals, which will come in hand you know. So like everyone having their occupation that will be helpful But also I agree. Something I really do appreciate is this idea of like a vulnerable and you get this with kids But a population that no one's going to believe or easily dised They like you're having, you, an episode starting to dementia. Yeah, E Bakeley Junr.' character in the first couple episodes here. But yeah, so watching out from Melina who who something I do appreciate about these episodes. and again, I've only seen two is like How we're not so far ahead of like he's quick on the investigative, you know, and he he will probably draw the rest of them into this as they go forward, but like You know, he's already like, I saw something And I'm not believing the story they're telling about I supposed to I'm not even like so old that I need to be here. So I know I saw I know I saw first. And so he's already investigating. So it's not like we saw the thing which we did in the in the cold open and we're just waiting around for people to figure out that there's like aliens in this show there' with us. ically like when he talks to his daughter, The great Gental Malonea is here like that how quickly he sounds unhinged and how easy it's going to be for him to be discounted. And so like that that You know, the commentary that the show can make about how we treat our elders and how we dismiss our elders is a potentially rich vein inside of the show. I mean, this is also I'll say set in New Mexico shot in New Mexico and like the Vince Gilligan universe, I think It's always nice when a show is just like, yeah, this is where we're shooting it. So like we're gonna have notot elements of New Mexico culture, but like It looks like the kind of place where you're like, like where is this village? And it's like New Mexico is the kind of place that those places pop middle of a dozen. Yeah likeike Area fifty one's over here and then right next to tell place. Yeah, exactly Yeah, I think it just like looks really good. I have this weird thing with shows like this, which I would describe as like a Tier Netflix show where binge is almost like if I don't keep watching this right now I may just stop Yeah you know, and But like I enjoyed what I watch and I'll try to give it some more. To your point about the launch, I watched this a couple days ago, I started we had the screeners for it, I started the screener and then you're like, Hey, I wantan to talk about the show and And I just opened up Netflix and realized it's now on out. You know, like And there was just no fanfare between when it moved from my screener row to like it's just a show that's out there But I'll be curious I I remember watching the trailer when it came out earlier this year and I was like, this could either really be something or just a lot of older people have Netflix. Also, I will say that there's a lot of really good details, especially in the first episode of Like the Dee Wallace character like watching Jeopardy and answering all the questions and then kind of watching Golden Girls and like There's' really like good understanding without being the CPAP machinending. CPA machine. CPA machine being like and Bill Pullman's great in what we get from him Have you watchhed the trailer of this No. Okay. then I won't I won't say what I give further like it gives it gives an indication of something that's going to happen that I am uninterested in housing. Okay You let me know when you get there. We' havell know. I will. I want to talk to you about Widows Bay. Yes We can do this one of two ways. We can do the episodes thing first and talk about what is based second or we can just chat. I know you you've been discussing it with Rob, so I don't want to make you doubleip too much Episode four is my favorite episode of television I've seen year. so I'm happy to talk about it as much as possible. You too. And I will spoil Andy's takes where he is like, this is probably the best thing I've seen this year, by far. Yeah alsoso started to notice anecdotally, more and more people being like, holy shit Widows Bay. so it does feel like it's starting to get like a little bitree Heat in the streets. haveave you noticed that? Van was just in here and I had been hammering him to watch it. and he was like, Yeahah, that I was on the phone Chris and Chris was like hang up the phone and watch it. I was like, oh, I see, when I told you to watch it. You didn't, but Chris told you to watch it. And you did. He's like, No both of you are equally important. Anway. got Van to watch. Iull angel on his shoulder man is the devil on both of our shoulders, but yeah corre correct. Yeahah, absolutely. It's kicking up in the conversation, which is great. It deserves it. like it is so It's a miracle of a show is how it feels. You know, I was reading a recap of it on Vulture And I realized that I am not actually like I'm so blown away by A performances and just the staging of the whole thing and how For me, even just watching on my screen at home, three dimensional the town feels already where I'm like, oh yeah. and I kind of know where this is and now ye they have to drive here and already settled so into the landline technology and like all these things about it that I have not really been like Hardcore clocking the underlying lore of the town that I think is going to become increasingly important over the second half of the season. And we get a little bit of this They Historical Society in this most recent episode. Shadow Jerry. It speaks to the wonder of the show where it's like, it's there. It's gonna matter But it is in so many shows that would be foregrounded. There is a lesser version of this show that is like What do you mean the mayor's wife? you know, like from like we're piecing together all this stuff. And this is so confident in the moves it's pulling and the characters it's developed that they can have that K kind of like down in the down in the faders. I agree with you. and I think there's confidence across the board. like with their, you know, something that Rob and I are tracking in our coverage is like Yeah know, we're doing sort of it's hard to talk about comedy in a week to week kind of way. Tell me that it's comedy most every watchable. It's difficult. But like The categories that we're sort of trying to ame this around. we have something that's like obvious joke and we have something that's thraway joke.es. And those are kind of hard to distinguish on this show, but there's just so many littleittle jokes of like something written down somewhere and the camera doesn't zoom in on it and make sure you saw it. It just rewards you if you took the time to look at it. Did you see K diffold on script notes? script nototes? Yeah. And so this is John August and Craig Mazason's podcast where they talk a lot about like the very fine details of like screenwriting and production. Amazin is just like I am in awe of the show. likeike you guys have do you know how hard it is to shoot that much at night? Do you know how hard it is to like getet your production design team to make the teeth game and it's going to be a one second throwaway joke, but it's like it's just some players and a And I know from talking to Andy how hard that stuff is like when he was working on Brier patching, he was like Yeah, like I want like he was like, we wanted to do this beer label on our beer bottles, but we couldn't so we had to do, you know, it's like And he's like, and that took like a week. a week of like cumulative meetings about this beer bottle that's going to be in the back of a scene and to see it get like I'm picking up on those little things and it's just It's encapsulated in the Chris Filming performance in this most recent episode to speak to your point about T Ovious joke and throwaway joke. Yeah I mean, the funniest thing that I've seen this year is him being like, just don't look at a mirror. and he closes the door and's full doormirror It's just really fucking good. I just tot really love the delivery of like when Pattyie reckoned and she's like Tat O' Connor and' be like, Hey, Pattty, you know, just like a real throwaway. Is that coke? Yeah, you know. U O like I have to go because my girlfriend's cat absconded or whatever. It's just so funny. Chris Filming is so good in this episode, but also just like something that Rob and I did And our coverage of episode five is we went through like drug trip episodes that have been like really great throughout TV history. It's a formula that like almost always hits for me Yeah. But I really appreciated you know going back and looking at like Madman episodes or that Roseanne episode, et cetera, et cetera. I love the artistry of Alex P. Keaton on caffeine pills. There go. Yeah. I I love the artistry of the lights going out and coming back up as Tom time. And it's just sort of like, especially when he's When you come up on the gas station and the car is just sort of like off kilter and just like all the lights come back on on the set as Tom is waking up and it's just like it looks Incredible. I always forget her name. Who's the actress who plays the woman who's with him at theas st. Rosemary? Dale Dle Dickkey. Dale Dickkey? Yeah She has now been present for two like the fact that she is there for Patricia's Wh ceremony Yeah Burning Man. Yeah. And then also for Tom's gas station and is completely not blessed by I' bothered. knew about the hag heckled Tom into the hotel. What does Rosemary know? I'm what is she seen that this is just like completely unbered? I hope that's the thing also about this series. I've been thinking a lot about X files just because I know they are going to Theyre obviously rebooting it with Ryan Kugler and Daniel Debweiler but I saw that there's like a Chris Carter director's cut coming of I Wan to believe on DVD. Oh my God. Blue Ray. Yeahah Okay ye Okay. So I've been thinking about like Maybe what a miracle that show is, but also like those were we had something where it was like You can make something that flits in between the monster of the week and the season long story and the larger conspiracy. And I don't know that they want to make this show for eight years and ever put up episode numbers like X files. There's no reason why this couldn't have like a slow horssees run where they are like, I am curious about that. like how long they can sustain the mysteries in the lore. Like how much is going to be wrapped up at the end of the season How much do they does Katie have the mentality of that a lot of TV creators have now, which is like put everything on the board because you don't know if you're going to get another season or how much is she thinking about it? in a long term kind of way. No know, it's so funny, you should mention that because I was when I was looking at episodic runs in great TV shows. and maybe even not All time great TV shows, but great episodic runs. And I And so many of them, you can see the way TV changes as you go through the years to We have to go back L probably be in like the first season if they were doing loss today Like But also they wouldn't even like by the time you get to we have to go back, your're sixty episodes to loss. Yes. To go back to exXfiles point, I was actually just talking to a friend of mine who's watching it for the first time right now Xfiles and she's like I don't know that I I don't know that it's as good as everyone was hyping it for me and we were talking about why You know I was like, you gotta get to Dren Morgan episodes and she got to Darren Morgan episodes and she's Okay, Yeah, sometimes great, but there's a lot of Stretch And so and she's a huge Bffy Eamppire Slayer fan. So they're runningar at the similar time with similar episode counts. So why does that show work for her and this one doesn't? And we were talking about the depth of the cast because in Bi Vampire Slayer or in Widows Bay We have a whole town of people that I am invested in. And with E files, it's just Mulder and S Gully. Like you've got some other characters, but it's always meeting these people. It's really just Mlder and Gully. And the beauty of twenty two twenty four episode season The example I always love to bring up is from Lost, which is the season three episode, Trisha Tanaka is D dead where they just Hurley and Jin and Sawyer and Charlie get a VW band restarted. That's the episode basically. And a lot of people like think it's a throwaway, but it's not because you're just investing in characters and you're spending get to interact with each other. And so those twenty two, twenty four episodes seons, you know, the pit does this really well where we're just we have like a broad swath of characters is's inviting us to just hang with them and spend time with them and emotionally invest in them and And that's what Widow's Bay is doing really well. like The sort of horror trope of the weak thing that they're doing is really funny, but also like I'm invested in Paticia being shunned by of the girl she went to high school with. I'm invested in Tom's relationship with his son, you know? L I care about Wick and Jerry's like dated background, you know, and like I'm interested in what's going with Rosemary and What's Ruth Steele and what's happening with Dale, you know, and this is the Katie Dipple Park parks and recreation DNA that's inside of the show, but it's just created such I don't I would want to hang out with these characters. for seasons and seasons. So tell us. I mean this script has been around for a long time, like the Widow's Base script. I'm curious. I would love to read earlier drafts of it and I would love to know Beacause to me the iceberg is Nobody born on the island can leave the island. That's obviously why he's been keeping his son on the island whether or not he the son is truly like in my house, we've been debating like, if this gets so naught, why hasn't you tried to on the ferry yet. So does he know maybe intrinsically he shouldn't, that's like the one thing he shouldn't do But if you were to save that for the cliffhanger of the end of the first season, R That would be like kind of a little bit more of what traditional TV would do, but instead, that's introduced, I think, in the middle of the second episode or something I feel like we're getting a lot of lore really quickly. Yeah ye. ye And that's G because you know, that's something, of course thats something like lost a show that I love, but was accused of withholding answers or an answer.. so ye Okay, so I want to do this little exercise with you here. Widows Bay is on episodes four and five. pretretend like you have not seen any more Widows Bay. I know that you guys just recorded. They are dropping six and seven together next week. Yeah. Is this a meemorial Day thing? No. I don't think it's a spoiler to say because they've been leading up to this. episode six is titled Our History. So it's like a st back sort of thing. So I think they want to drop a more standard episode along with it to make it, you know, to not make you feel like I have toait another week to check back in with characters they care about. So they've begun this kind of like I would say episodes four and five, especially for everybody kind of responded to. I loved five as well Yeah. I mean, you could say three is the hotel episode and you could say they've already gone on a run in this for the sake of our conversation, I'm classifying a run as three episodes or more Two episodes is good, three episodes is a run. And so Now that we're watching Woodows Bay do this, I wanted to like talk a little bit about When I asked you this question, did you have an immediate response? You know what? So sometimes, you know, whenever I get to go on the watch and you Give me prompts. I excited because I love talking about the history of television I had already done the homework for this because a year ago when Mal and I were doing like our buuffy rewatches In Buffy Vampire season two is my all time favorite run of episodes of television And then I like I tweeted it out. I said, is this the best runound of episodes of television? And then I got a b So I was like, I already did my homework work So that's why it became prompt Twitter Yeah. Eactly. Exactly. But buuffy season two which is, um Normally I would hesitate to bring my like nerdier genre stuff to the watch, but this is Widow's Bay. So here we are Fuffy season two, which is Surprise and Innocence, which is widely regarded as one of the best sort of turns of a plot that has ever happened in a show where our love interest on the show, Angel the vampire, loses his soul and becomes the villain of the show. And this is just like early Joss Whedon We didn't know you could do this on television sort of stuff. So that's the two part of surprise and innocence, incredibly good phhases, which is this great Seth Green werewolf episode, just like Seth Green finds out that he's a werewolf. R inccredible Be wish bothered and bewilder, which is Zander fucks up a spell and like All the girls of Sunnydale want to tear his clothes off. Kind of like obsession. And then passassion, which happens to be my favorite episode of all T of Buffy Vampires Llayer, which again is another spoilers for season two of Buffy, which aired twenty plus years ago A major character dies in the first time that Josh Whedon ever did that in a way that I was sixteen when I saw it, and I was like, I didn't know you could do this in story. I don't think my wife is recovered yet Yeah. So that run to me, starting with surprise and innocence, phases and be which bother me Wildered, though they're the kind of like quirky stand alone. There's a werewolf episode, there's a witchcraft episode. They're incredibly good And then passion is just an all timer. and that is just like And incredible. Did you watch it when it was on And do you remember being in the throes of like, I can'tve I like literally can't wait for Buffy to be on? This is so incredible. that did you even subconsciously understand that you were watching like a successive episode run, kind of? Well, so, u I'm the exact same age as Buffy, so I was sixteen. Okay this was airing I think I told this story. We're up in a Hllmouse.. We're in County, California, by, my I wasn't allowed to watch TV on weeknights when Buffy was airing. I think Id probably had gotten in trouble and that was my punishment or something like that. So I had a friend who would tape it and bring it to school for me. So clutch. And she brought me passion. and she was just like, if you can watch this before the weekend. No I'ving great. Yeah. And I found a way to do it and I was just and but that was before like The interternet couldn' ruin it for me. We weren't online in that way. So it's not like I was going to get spoiled necessarily, but she just really wanted to talk to me about what happened. went passion very specifically That's when I knew I was watching something incredibly you al been thinking about for a long time.'s my life. That's my number one TV death of all I think just because of when it hit like who I was it changed how we understand how television works. Yeah. I mean, I think that was the thing that was sort of Awesome about that nascent period of TV going into what we consider Golden Aent prerestige where there's all this rule brereaking happening but because I don't even know if the executives in charge knew what was they had on their hands. R like obviously like I know that Buffy had like plenty of budget and, you know, headbutting going on behind the scenes with like their network execs and stuff like that, but like Sometimes you would just be like home on like a Wednesday night watching something and you'd be like, is anybody else seeing this?ike this is crazy. Yeah. I found that way when I watched Battle Star seeason one. Oh yeah, I was just likeally This is this happening? Yeah like you know, u My number one pick for this run that I felt P immediately was succession season two episodes two through four. That's Vaultter That's hunting, which is bor on the floor Safe Room, which is one of my favorite succession episodes of all time. Is it because of how often you love to throw water bottles at Andy? It's just It is the it is the episode that I think is piqued Jeremy Strong. Yeah. I thought that was the best and he in he in u He and Shv are just like, in like another like planetary atmosphere in that episode. that's the h It's not going to be me. Yeah Yeah or whatever. Yeah. And then actually I love her h Turn Heaven That's on The only reason why I sometimes give Turnhaven a deerit is that it's also the first time that I got mad at succession because I did not think Shiv and Kendall were sufficiently acknowledging what had just transpired. Now you can say like that's just that family and this is also TV and all these other things, but I'm like they had like this insanely vulnerable moment and Siv got this incredibly important piece of information. R that obviously Kendall is being blackmailed not to put himself forward to see you. R. And so Why is that not ever even acknowledged in the next episode But a real glee moment where like for episode episode it also felt like they reset and just became like banter twins again. So Turn evenven is awesome though But those three I especially love. I mean, hunting, incredible. Valtter, very good. Turn The thing that Turnhaven does that that showcases what succession does so well is like just introduce you to a whole new cast of characters that you have like mere minutes to sort of get learn who all these pierces are and it's just and it feels very theatrical and they got a bunch of theater talents in to play these roles. and I just it's so funny like to go see plays in the intervening years. Yeah, how many pierces are just like in a play? Exactly. Yeah. They just raidated Broadway for this episode. but yeah, I love Tourhaven. It's like The Pierces and all of Gilded Age Yeah. What was another one that you liked? You already claimed some of my favorites, so will I will let you get to those. But for I'll do another genre one Doctor Who, I talk about this one all the time. Silence in the library, this is the end of David Tennant's run. as the tenth doctor So silence in the liibrary in Force of the Dead, which is an all time two parter set in a library on a planet somewhere. And then Midnight, which is my favorite episode of Doctor Who, which is like a standalone tenant with a bunch of random characters on a train and it's just this bottle episode Chamber horror piece, like essentially like an Agatha Christie poor thing that how on a space train. I love midnight turnurn left, which is which then showcases the companion of that season and then Stolen Earth and Journeys E, which is they it was like Avengers end Gay before Avengers end Game. they brought back all the characters Yeah all the characters from all the seasons for this incredible like two Parter. That is U you know, and I think Tenant is the best doctor we've ever had and it's they just gave him banger after banger. and Stephven Moffid who wrote Sonons's The Library For us of the Dead, likeike this is a real audition Okay for her for him to take over, which he did when Matt Smith started as the doctor. Is it widely regarded as by other Doctor Who fans as like peak Doctor Who? orr is that like a I will say it was just a joke. I will say Sson Library of Force, the Dad is widely regarded as like an incredible two partarter and then the two partter at the end of the run. Midnight and turn left because they are so odd. but I think in these side of these runs and this is this is a good Case I'll be curious what you think of Wednesdayay episode six. Like, can you have a run of like episodes that are very much in keeping with the show. and then then and then a version. Yeah, one that's like sort of off that if it's incredibly good, does that just prove what the show can do even more? Yeah And it's funny that I picked succession and I was looking at some of the big blockbuster shows that we've covered over the years. And I was going through Thrones seasons. Yeah. The run up to the childildren is like incredible. I agree. But then you also look at the five episodes before that and you're like, those are pretty good too. canan I just do for Yeah Yeah And so that's with drre shows and especially with shows that are adapted maybe like ten episode seasason. Yeah, you know, Yeah U my next one was I just I forgot that this was the case. The last three better callall Sal episodes before B Breaking Bad timee takes over And this is basically the end of Howard And Gus is locked in. Chess maneuver with Lalo about the meth lab Yeah holy shit. I was watching clips from this last night to refresh my memory And like Kim with Lalo and all the stuff that Mike is try shows up at their ye at the apartment. And also we were just so locked in because They had their plan in postits. and so we were just sort of, I was like pouring over the posts and like and the end of Howard is so and what's happening at Kim in that moment is so hard to watch, but irresistible Um and You want to root for Jimmy and Kim, but you're like, what are weike she's just self aware enough to be like, I've my soul died here. so like we can't be together anymore. So good. not for nothing. they just do more episodes of Breaking back after that, which is fucking crazy. But I had a better Cell run from the previous season, which is Wexler versus Goodman. Oh my God. JMM. man bad choice road, something unforgivable. L That might be better. That might be better. Spederl Saul was just. Unbelievable unbelievable television. Let me ask you one. Did you have So I put down Andor the Prison Ac eight through ten season one. Did you have a different Andor arc? I do. Only because I saw you put the prison arc on there and the Narina arc is so good. But the Gorman Ac from season two, I think also and like this Andor' a perfect show because you have these three episode chunks. And I was like Does the Gorman ark an Arcina arc for me and I I don't know it. does only because the Narina arc is where we realize what we had in Andor. right? And you get the Lutheren speech and you get the Kina Loy speech like in the same fucking episode. Yeah and it's also like the peeak of like,h, Evan Musk backwreack's going to come off for three episode.s it's just like you can't really like feel too safe with anyone. Right becausecause your favorite character might get killed in two episodes. Absolutely Eemic guy U So yeah. so the the Aldani arc into the Narquina arc are like of season one are just incredible Gorman Ark I think that Gormanark at the end of the day might be stickier for me because I know you and I were like really into tracking all of the French resistance comps in season two U and then the end of the Gorman Ac, which we have the Cyril Cassian showdown, which is one of the best moments in all of the history of television to me.ree. Yeah. And and then also the feeling we all had that we're almost out of Andor. Yeah. then It three Mon Mothma's escape is the next episode. the next episode after that, rightight? And then we only have two more, you know, like then it' Clay. I was just running the fuck out And so like that was part of it tour. It was just like, It was just slipping through our hands as we were watching it. Yeah. man. like when we watch when we watched season one, we were like, maybe we'll get five seasons of Vandor. And by the time of season two, we were like, Tony Tony's like, this is it. When I did that pod with Sean, I was watching, I just kept watching the conference room scene of them putting down the shades and. feel like Kalcate You know, we just got to get it out. What are we going to do about these Gordan people? And I was like I don't this this might just be like A top five show for me of all time now. What to do about limited series or anthology series here is interesting because te I think there's a lower degree of difficulty if you're just going to do six episodes for your middle block to be really good. You know, like firstirst episode, it's like, okay, meeting these people last epode, there's often a little bit of a kind of like winding down clunkiness to it. Usually I think you and I both have couple of shows that either intentionally or not intentionally wind up only being one season Um, I threw out I threout the middle three episodes of Chernobyl I don't even in my mind have like a and then this happened and then this happened. I just remember the vibe of it. but I also watched Tnobylan way after that point. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought the end of Chernobyl was a bit not not my speed, but like the middle was just really great. And then I have Episodes three through five of the first season of True Detective, which is locked room Wh goes there, which is the famous track and shhot and seecret Fate of All life, which is Now, so if you have any like limited or one season ones, we could do we could talk about those. Yeah, so fargo season two episodes seven through nine. So did you do this? you know you did it lop, lop and the castle of the castle is flag saucer at at the motel. Part of it is partart of it is like, are these three episodes in isolation really good? Yes, but part of it also is the experience of having watched Fargo season one and saying, What Is this incredible episode of television.es, Fargo, the best show that's ever happened. That's how Fargo season one happened to like Fel T me at the time. And then Fargo season two happened An incredible cast. but at first I was like, I don't know. they have it and I'm unsure about Karsen D's here and like is what I want from Jesse Pleummins and et cetera, etcetera. Allison told him to season one or two. two two. Yeah Um and, uh And then No, she season one. sorry. seeason one. She season one. Okay because season two is when you have Patrick Wilson play. That's right. He dad. Yeah. But Christian Miliotti is here, like all I incredible cast. Sat McLaren is here, etcetera, etcetera. But when you get to the motel and it's just like fly, you know Krish she done saying to Jesie Plemans. Yeah, it's flying saucer. and we gotta gold. You're like, o argo season two riffts, you know? And so that's when you Get the reassurance. the same thing you happened with Andor because I remember the first three episodes of season one of Andor, we were all like N'ot not entirely sure. of seeason one. No season one and then the Aldanian Arcina. So like when you were like, o They know they're cooking, they know what they're doing. likeike that feeling is so speific. Yeah For Andor, it's very specific because we didn't have the preree existing, even if it was like in the press notes, you didn't really understand how it was gonna feel to do it's the three episodes and then there's gonna be a time jump and a location change and a character ensemble change Um With Fargo, I remember feeling like so cynical about the TV eight project in general., you know, and then by season two just being like This is actually like an incredible proof of concept that TV can do stuff' just truly truly remarkable when it comes to adaptation and riffing I couldn't decide what my watchmen one was you you put this down, but I I knew it was in there and I think you nailed it, but this is another good example of like, I know it was in the middle for me somewhere, but you I think you're going towards the ending, right? Like over the second half. It's close, right? Little fear of lightning, this extraordinary being an almost religious awe. God walks into a bar Yeah and see how they fly. Yeah, you know. That's like half the season. Yeah you could trim little fear of lightning and see how they fly off and just do this extraordinary being an almost religious awe and God walks into a bar and just sort of Absolutely crush it. I mean Watchmen is so special.'s really cool that because you ever listened to Damon was on House of Aar, Damon Londorf went on House of Aar? It was an awesome awesome podcast.. Now being aggregated to death, but that's okay. I still kind of freak out like sometimes I'll be talking to him and I'll just be, Goddd damn dog. me was Smiths. You have the lovers. I know. This extraordinary being being the like nostalgia episode, right. onene of the best episodes of television ever. and then God walks into a bar also being like god tear television. So that those three and almost religious thought Watchmen. I. Remember how watchatchmen happened? I know Um Thank you so much for doing this. You don't to talk aboutoss though, since we're here with. Okay If I was like, what's the three best episode run in Lost Is there a run that comes? Is it? Is it season three seventeen through twenty, which culminates with We have to go back or is there a different one I think without question It is. Greatest hits. through the looking glass part one through the looking glass part two Because the greatest hits, which is this Charlie episode, like leading, you know, like talking about TV desusts, right The death of Charlie at the end of season three of Lost Bow is for Lost is Incredible television. andort I should better call Saul too, I guess. Sorry, Howard But like, uh Charlie as a character, on rewatching Lost and you know, I did a podcast rewatching every episode of Losts. Charlie the character does not work for most of season three because they had the way that Damon puts it They arked out Charlie. They like did all of his stuff too early and then they just didn't know what to do him, right? And so They u so he's just like running back the same you know, drug loop over and over again. And so you're frustrated with his character and then you get something like greatest Hits, which is Charlie going back through the moments of his life that he's sort of like he's been given this prophecy, you're gonna to die, brother. R. And so the episode before he's going die. And like, you know, you're watching television, you're like arere they going to subvert that? What are they going to do? No, he just died. Force ghosts ye. But you care so much more about it because you have this episode before, which couldould feel cheap, if not done well, of just sort of this one character reflecting back on his life and all the little moments that he is proud of a time that he like helped a woman who was getting her purse snatched, the time that he was at a community pool with his dad as a kid. But it's just it's done so well and Perfect encapsulation of what the lost flashback structure can do that leading into Charlie's death, which coincides with this big lore. It was a flash forward. you were watching this whole time moment, which like the sort of buffy thing changed television forever and people have been chasing that high forever I think you beat it. It's so good. Was there a different thrones run No, I think the end of four is like Because can I can name you isolated standout episodes. Yes that I think are better, but in terms of like Be I really think five is when I think five is when things start going wrong for thrones and that's earlier than a lot of people U no, that's six. fiveive is like Santa's wedding and stuff like that. L I think five is the early germs of things going wrong. I remember five When's hard home Five. fiveive, fiveive or six Part of home is when I kind of was like five. Oh, I wonder if it's gonna feel like this where there's like two or three episodes that are like o pretty good. Yeah'sort of game of Thrones episodes but it's a lot of like two people walking and talking. And then there is a blockbuster movie and then there's three episodes and then there's a blockbuster movie. Yeah. But four Before I remember just being like so fully captivated and also like so so invested with the characters at that point. Yeah. And like the way that The children ends with a joke he used to make of the time is everyone you love is on a boat. Like all these people just like get on a boat to go So the possibility of like opening the world was so exciting. about it. And then that's just like a problem they had. And the world got too open and they had to bring him back down. But more I think is like And on rewatch iss the last For me, the end of four is the last time where I'm like they just knew exactlyer they they were doing y. It almost is like That's when it felt like they still wanted to keep making it. Yeah. You know, or they weren't thinking about or they were excited, super excited. I'd love be back in Los Angeles. Yeah. Joe, thank you so much. champion for doing this with me. I really appreciate it Thanks to Kai and Kaya for producing today, Andy and I Taking Memorial Day off Im sorry to Siddney Sweene I hope that whatever happens to you on Sunday night We'll hold until Thursday. Rob and I are going live on Sundays. See this is why you're you. No, no, it's just like ill advised, I think to do a live reaction. Pacific Northwest, man. You're living a better life. Your work life balance is better than mine. I think we're about equallyaced. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back next week. Take care Every act of change begins with a neighbor. When neighbors connect through the Feeding America network, small actions ripple into lasting impact. Feeding America, led by neighbors. 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