The tension of the finale

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He just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match Poetry in motion I sports to have to clear theom Stand up and walk Hello and welcome to the watchatch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer dot com and joining me in the studio ready to celebrate two hundred and fifty more It's Andy G Wall! two hundred and fifty more episodes of the Bear season five? It's great to see you. Yeah I amm excited for this dialogue that we're gonna have today on the watch podcast, which you can email at the watch at sppotify dot com dot You can follow us on Instagram at the Watch pod Underscore And you can watch us on YouTube at ringerash TV where we share space with the prerestige TV podcast. and you can also watch us on Spotify where I hope you like share space, We hold space. We hold space for Joe and Rob. It's great to see you. It's really good. It's good to have Kayaak. We have a full house today and a full show. You have a lot of expectations for today, I think. Here's the laundry list. All right to do list. openpening banter So far, crushing it We may do dragon. I mean, we drag I discuss a little bit. I have some questions. Dragon bear and Starsity Yeah, I mean, those are the things I watched. Yeah. You also watched some other stuff. You had a robust cultural weekend. I did. There was a lot, I mean, that was a lot of television, man And I still I still got it, you know? And you know what? can I tell you something? Yeah Um the industryes it's not the industry. the agency, straight bangers and mash. Tking into it, dude. How far How far did you go? I'm at four now. Okay. It's just good as shit, man. The bureau that was a good story. I know, they really knew what they were. You say it in English. It's awesome. So much easier Can I give you just a little glimpse into my headspace before we get started? I'd like nothing more. I mean this podcast is essentially built around that. Well, so I don't know if this has ever happened to you and I don't know what this means specifically, but I was, you know, Line of stuff. I mean, really, this morning was devoted to a very important task, which is coating our various songs for our much anticipated annual barbecue playlist, which definitely will now soundtrack one of the weirdest barbecues of all time. So that's not out yet. We will release that via our Instagram. Be music or because of the nature of of America the count No because because of the interesting collision between where our personal muses have led us recently. I can only do so much, Andy. I mean, last year, I had a lot of aggressive music and you said that I would have ruined anyone's barbecue. So I tried to make it soft and NPR friendly for you. Ruin is not the word Soft does usually not involve ice age and Salem Okay, to each his own. That's not my iss. My issue was I spent my head was really in that game this morning and I was trying to coate my thoughts about all the various television we were gonna discuss today I was really excited to just kind of check out the AQI down here in Los Angeles. Oh yeah.. And it's actually raining or is this god crying on the bottom of the city? Or did they shoot the hoses so high it's only now. like ye So all of those things were happening, and you know, also it's Monday morning I was boiling up some eggs, you know, And then was distracted briefly by some London communication on the WhatsApp app And I was like I' probably lift the toaster because it seems like I'm really overdoing these English muffins to Nooks and crannies, our former sponsor And u You you scrambing eggs?' boiling like hardard boiling sm eggss Engish muffin, okay? Well here's the thing, Chris. There was no English muffin It was actually a kitchen towel that was fully a flame In my I had set fire to a kitchen towel. Like by putting it on the toaster No, no, the toaster wasn't involved. That's you you with me? Yeah. I had lifted the lid of the pot with a kitchen towel because it was hot aced it what I believe to be a reasonable distance from the pot. I see you. And then just fired up some messaging And then just was kind of like vibing with the smell of Los Angeles inside of my kitchen. May that mayaybe the real issue is we are so desensitized. It is It is probably at this point. you could just like all I do in my house now is burn foam to feel Exactly feel something. So I immediately took an N ninety five mask and put it on the cat. And then I drove in to see you So I but I'm sure that is are we Okay at your house, like the emmbers are out. You know me very well. I doused that towel so intensely in the sink, there was no more flame. Good. Be before I left, I then disposed of the towel And yet We're just now on the five freeway, sorry, no free ads, on a freeway I u That's like the World Cup stadium business on Los Angeles Los Angeles Los Angeles Road. I was on Los Angeles Freeway And uh My thoughts are so I am not this creative in my script writing as I am when anxious and driving to work, because I imagine that one little smoldering ember was still inside of the towel and was now spreading to whatever no doubt highly flammable substance was in my trash can. Yeah. your collaborating chilies, what have you? Yeah. No, those are where they belong. I said It's coming home, Chris when it comes to the chilies. So that's where I am today. You are worried that your house is enngulfed in flames, orr maybe it's a fresh start. Okay. Where would you like to start today I mean, would you like to start with One of the three shows, do you want to tell me a little bit about your cultural weekend? Would you like to save that for after dark by the way, also, you know, we didn't mayaybe we were waiting for Kaya or maybe now we're afraid to do it in front of Kaya, but we didn't do after dark last Thursday where we were going to discuss the wedding of the century of New York City with socialism or Oh, Taylor. Right. because we did talk about DSA last week. I don't want to lead with Taylor. No, I don't either. I'm saying so that's probably our after Dark sorted. Yes. Well, I mean, this is why we don't have a show on Thursday. We have somewhere to be You're just telling people now Wow. Okay. Let's start with House of the Drag Yeah. right You know, just say it at the beginning. you went and saw the invite. It's only in seven at the beginning. Sure. because it's only in seven theaters and I think it's worth Andy's movie Corner is always a delight. So you give it a shout out I I mean What a great movie. Yeah, It willll be rolling out, I think over the next two weeks. I had a very unexpectedly spontaneous Los Angeles experience where I didn't know the movie was out I then saw that it was it's playing only in theaters that can play it in the thirty five millimeter projection film format. So it's here at the Vista and it's probably in a couple of other cities. And I just There I was, just a young, Nope, just a man. U without a calling and I went into the theater I saw a movie I knew very little about I think it's phenomenal. Yeah. I loved it. and then Hollywood baby as soon as it was over Olivia Wilde and Seth Rogan appear to be interviewed by someone who's coming for your crown, Sanal Lathan ter. I would I would love nothing more than to to Dude battle with Sonallean and America's host. I do want to talk about the movie, and I do I think she's a wonderful actor and I really like her. but I did feel a little bit like You don't see us auditioning for love and basketball. Do you know what I mean Like there is a reason why it's generally you or Sean on a director's chair at the front of these things. You know what I mean? Because you usually don't begin your Q and H' by being like, man Whoa! Am I right? Wow. Maybe we should Honestly, that would probably translate better. Anyway, I just couldn't believe that we can still make Funny, engaging, emotional adult movies. I think it's a phenomenal movev. anybody listening to this should see it. There's a big picture episode in the Can coming I don't exactly when Seanwn's playing a little flat fast and loose with the schedule right now, but We did a pot about it and I love that movie. That's why you're saving your takes. Look at you. It's not saving my takes, it's just like one hundred and fifty people got to see the movie. I don't want to spoil it. It's just us here. You canust us gals. You can leak a little something. Sean's not listening Seaan can't hurt you. listen Yeah. And then he stops when we start talking about TV shows, which we're going to do now Let's talk about House of the Dragon I I thought that one way to look at this episode Yeah, which I talked about was Mal and Joe in depth and I'm happy to answer any questions because now I am the lore master. How show. Okay. How's Mal doing Fine. good. Oh because of anything in particular from this episode of spoilers. You said you could answer questions. Oh ye, she's doing great. G. Spoilers for the second episode of House of the Dragon season three, which in Some kind of calculus could be viewed as the actual season finale for season two So I saw much debate about this online about whether or not like The first episode would serve as a better finale or the second episode. I think that in a way, we arrive at a very good stopping point for a certain story in that Rhaenyra is now back on the Iron Throne. But just in general, like I wanted to do a little gut check for you because I have given I've created a permission structure for you. that we don't have to talk about this every week and that you don't you shouldn't feel like You're in I George R R. Martin Memorial State Penitentiary with me. What do what did you think of the episode? First of all, I watched too much television this weekend because my first reaction was it was a hideous end to the chief designer. Like I know that what's going on with the Soviet space program is a little playing a little fast in protocol. Like C we get Rese for two days because Rys Eens is currently one of the stars of Star City? Well, he's free for future seasons of Star City. Let's put it that way. He's not going to be called back to Westeros anytime soon I have to say that the auto H toower ending Yeah on this episode where he was Tw times had basically whenner had to take two swings at the I believe Kata. He's called a two pump chump. I believe that's what that means Wouldn't she be the do pump jump in this case? I wouldn't comment. That would be like one of my that's a new fear unlocked is that I was going to beheaded, but the first one missed You've never had this fear before? No You haven'tou clearly we had different middle and high school reading lists because I do remember quite a lot of historical textbooks discussing how the guillotine and wasn't always the model of efficiency we believeimate works fifty percent of the time. That's exactly right. That's exactly right Um That's rough stuff. So that was that was terrifying, but I thought I thought a useful way to look at this show increasingly and maybe this is you could say this is Cope. you could say this is like me trying to create like a language to talk about the show. But I think the more you look at it as this kind of like maximal Maxim Maximalist opera It kind of works better kind explain. Well, because, you know, the people talking in rooms Broken characters trying to put together a broken world of Game of Thrones, the humor of Kight of the Seven Kingdoms, like I think those are more approachable U and game of Fs, the reason why it was such a huge gateway for so many people was that those characters were not altogether different than ones you would see on sopranos or, you know, like other television at the time, they were wearing capes, they had shields, but they were fathers and sons and daughters and brothers and sisters, even, you know And dragons Eventually. Eventually. but I think that they backackloaded all that stuff And they backloaded a lot of like the hard hard fantasy stuff that is in that text And led with, of course, yeahight And you know, I think how's the Dragon Every show probably is served well by this where you can kind of figure out like What's the way to watch this and how should I be Which way should I lean when I'm like leaning it? You know, like if I'm enjoying the show, what is the best way to sort of like interpret it And I do think seeing this as an almost like heightened kind of over over dramatic and a good way show helps my enjoyment of it I I find that interesting and I find that I find that compelling. I think when you were saying that you were monitoring the debate about like where the season season two ought to have ended or could have ended, is it generally under like what is the in terms of the people who are really invested in the show, which clearly I am not, But like is there a feeling of disappointment about what the second season was? Is there Okay. Yes. All right U Oh it's universal, fair. Yeah. I this America can agree on. That's really nice. That's really nice. That was an abrupt season finale. It sure was. And look, I think there's the type of criticism that we can do that you know, when we talk about shows that we're struggling with or that we're having mixed reactions to that can be categorized as constructive There's a type of criticism that we do that is ultimately kind of a dead end, which is the things that we wish be I don't really have a lot of that for the show. because it is so committed to A, not being for me, which is fine, but I really do feel that it is entirely people who are already within the coalition, let's say. So like Mal and Joanna who I adore and when I hear you guys talk about the show or I hear them talk about the show I'm always more interested in their perspective on it than I am on my own or even on the show itself, because, for example, when on the pod you did with them, Joanna was talking about the arrival of the Northman. Yeah. That's nice. And she was talking about who these people were, who what they represented within the world at this time, how exciting it was to see this on screen, how you could read so much into Damon's reaction because he knows the history of them. And I thought, well, how nice for them Like when you drive past aQininera in downtown Pasadena, you know what I mean? I'm like, this looks like a beautiful day Yeah. I'm going to continue driving now. I was not invited. That pretty much how I feel about the show at this point. Outside looking in. oututside looking in That said, there are threads here that I do find compelling even within this episode. If you were to think about it in terms of the larger Westerosi Project kindind of like the Heritage Foundation, you know, it's been they're finally getting what they want Um Rhaenyra Claiming the throne with tears and snot running down her face after this nightmare. of a day Sure is in a vac that's interesting. That's compelling. That's different than what we've seen. But my biggest, I mean, the biggest note that I took was the scene when prior to flying to Kingss Land And I'm going gonna need your help explaining why they couldn't have just done this at any point, or are they just afraid of the one really big dragon? Vagar. Yeah. She has, again, not not unreasonably taken to her bed because her son is dead and Damon comes over and starts just just riffing. I mean, he just starts tal he basically starts talking to her about prophecies the way we would talk about spy novels and bars in the early two thousands. Yeah You know, No, you don't know what Ly Dyton did in the third trilogy. he's talking about the song of Ice and Fire and the prophecy. and he's basically saying All of this is true But there's going to be someone who we know is Daenerys who takes over the world eventually You got to get up You got to get back up and you gott to get on your dragon and fly because of the story we have to fulfill. And I'm sitting here being like, this must be how the people locked in a room in Watford feel when they're writing this show. They're like, we got to make the fucking story donuts because this is all There is no emotional reason to do it. He's saying, G do all this so Daenerys can happen. Not only did we know Daenerys happened because we watched Game of Thrones We also watched the last season of Game of Thrones and it didn't work out great. So I wish that there was a I wish in that moment of low emotion or real emotion. that the reason for doing things was more tangible than This's a really good story I heard that many people enjoyed on HBO. I think if you connect what he's saying that it's a very wise way of looking at things and I think it presents a storytelling problem, but not a character problem. And I think one of the things that's been cool about this. first of all I Emma Darcy's doing a wonderful job this season. I agree with that. Ver in a very different And that's like a very That was what I was talking about the operatic part. L her sitting down and the reflection. Claire Killner directed this episode. I think she does a wonderful job at the show and reflection in the blood of her taking the throne, her kind of looking Both like a child, but also a broken man, like her father, like in the throne. I thought was great Alisent showing up, you know, is a very like it's like Verdi. It's like, you know, like the person comes and sees their father killed right at the last second. Yeah. But u I think that the interestnteresting moral problem or not even moral, but like the problem solving problem that it presented that character is You are incredibly important bothoth as a war fighter L because you have a dragon. Yeah. But also you are essential as a figurehead. Yep So if you are the if you are the thing that this guy saw in his vision. Yeah You actually can't do shit Because we have to wrap you in bubble wrap. Yeah. And that's why she can't go fight Aammond This is my interpretation of it. This is also why Jo Eel and Bed can't do back to backs. Well The the princess who was promised, you know? Like it was like The idea that the reason why Jace while a bit dumb was right was that she probably would have caught some harpoons out there in the first episode of the season.ight. And if she goes down, this whole thing goes down Be this isn't based on a political coalition or an alliance of families of like, you know what? this guy really has a lot of good ideas about how to run Westeros This is A bunch of people have agreed on a myth or an idea or a dream or whatever. And a figurehead. Yeah And so she's got it's got to be her. They've gotten really good at doing the action stuff. They've gotten really good at making the dragons look good. but again, I think the thing that I just find unsatisfying it makes me think that ultimately this show is the Westerosi version of. I mean, I think you fed me this. I think you were right, of like a rings of powerower type show, which is like or a Star Trek whatever the current show is unparamount where it's like, if you love this stuff you're going to find a lot to like here and it might be different storytelling. But for me, All of the interesting emotional storytelling is in parentheses between what is now endless scenes of overpowered video game heroes slicing through redhirts. There's just so much Oh, here we are. let me stab eight people through the throat. There's only Chris. I know you were surprised by what happened to Auto, but in my experience, there are limited ways to open up arterial lab. Arenn't so many. You know what I mean? Maybe there's you do a top five throat slashings in TV history right now? I mean, box cutters gott to be number one from Breaking Bad. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Yeah Well mean, first of all, they're all good You know, we live in a golden age But you know what I mean? And the reason I was thinking of that was when you were talking about the important the bubble wrap nature of Rhaenyra, but it's also just weird to me, but necessary for storytelling that Renier and Damon, who are essensibly the soon to be incestuous king and queen of this reunited realm They're like riding they're riding to King's Landing on the back of their nuclear bombs like Doctors Strange loveove. And then they get off the bombs and they're like, Now, wellll stab do a little bit of stabbing. Oops, we got cornered That seemed foolish until it all worked out. Yeah. Joe pointed out something similar, so I was glad to know that that wasn't just like our casual eye being Why did they do that? But I guess ultimately that's why Allison had sort of gotten the gold cloaks, you know, David's old gue on signs I think a good A good illustration of what you' talking about in that I think it's a well done, well acted scene, but there is a scene In between Demon leaving his army and getting back to Rhaenyra, where he meets Alice Rivers, who is the witch who Is Is that Gail Ranken and And that's Gayail Rankin and that's theitch you wr I like this person. Shotgun with him the weir It was him in the tree in her. It was a. It was like probably the most emblematic of like Did you guys misschedule this shoot? Like how did this wind up that you have the one of the most dynamic characters on the show is kind of Isolation. Were you talking about the tree That Smith And so Matt Smith and Get Gail Rankin are wonderful performers. and here's Alice A mysterious woman ties to Harren Hall in some way. Yeah. and Damon who is You know Dedicated T Rer up he is. But she may not be endgame for him. She may not be his one and only Oh, you think he have some other nieces? No, I just mean like he was married before You know, like he he obviously has a thing or connection with Alice. That's a very I think significant scene in the larger narrative tapestry of this show I think that will be a turning point Did you read it as such or were you like, this is another like Room tone T people talking about what they did and what they're going to do kind of moment. I feel the way I felt from the beginning with the show, which is why probably listening to me is diminishing returns cannot for the life of me see where the story is coming from. And what I mean by that is like looking at the fuel reserves of what we have to tell. where what's powering another season and a half, right? I think they said that it was going to be four seasons of story here. Um partly because giant ass dragons aside the relative randomness to the casual of when they can and can't do things. L everyone was so paralyzed for so many episodes of the show last season, and then they just flew in and took the throne And now she there Dmond was chred out to go to Harrenal. Yeahah I that the amount one finds a new GF. But in order Oh, that's right You think he's going be okay Amon, fine, but he's got You got a little But he has a new new new agent Alalis. Yeah un stuck a little bit in the back there. I think he'll make it. I was glad to see a Targaryen actually get stabbed? Yeah. I can't believe I just said that. Well, you got me just so I think I'm out. but I thought that was nice. I just mean that like We began at the We be remember when remember when the battlefield on the show was the womb? We began with them as children just to get to a point where one of their children was distracted so they could go back. Like that is a lot of television made out of what feels like not a lot of. sometimes I think it it feels and play is a little bit like the way it feels to read nonfiction where you're like, you're reading like I was reading like the Rick Atkinson invasion trilogy It was like Africa, Italy, D day And like I love them. B There's fifteen pages of And then the men packed the socks And then the men packed eighty thousand cans of tuna and the men packed underwear. And the men this is the part I'd like. But that's a lot like you're and you're kind of like, ah, yes, a storyteller might be like Everything they needed, they packed away. Right. It's a history not. You know what I mean? And I think There is a dedication, perhaps an over in the beginning, ironically enough since George R. Martin and Ryan Conll had this sort of schism There was in the beginning, maybe an over deference to showing every step of the way Totally and no more so nor never more so than when they did a four episode preamble. of these girls as teens. ye because Well, for whatever reason, but they obviously didn't want to just be like, Here's grown up Alison and grown upp Rhaenyra and their last moment of peace. and now they're going to split. I think it's look, it is interesting from a perspective of someone who is a fan of the industry and I mean we watch it, like to see a show No, I'm serious LinkedIn, fan of the industry. Fan of the industry, man. Well that's because I'm just that's just glazing Mickey and Conrad again I canan't help it I know, but that like, Who ares some of your favorite guys in the industry right now? Oh my go. Josh toorrow Josh tomorrow is killing it right now. What about gunner? You know, no one talks about Gunner anymore now, the Paramount's buying Warner Brothers. Now for a minute, Gunner was king. He was gonna have his own little fieifdom of networks Th then Elson came over the top I think we've heard the last of him He's going take Harren Hall. I think I do find it interesting when shows because of their, whether it's because they're actual like quantitative success or you know the necessity of the project for the bottom line of the corporation or whatever, to keep going as it fixes itself and rewrites itself and redirects itself And I think that you couldn't get anyone on the record to say this if you it would be fascinating at some point to read a postmortem of the show with Ryan Condol or with George Martin or both of them ideally or the other people in the room talking about how they how the goals Changed. and what mistakes they feel were made to get to this point. I don't mean to be like walking back or being overly negative about what I said last week, which was an episode like the Battle of the Gallet episode is in many ways, I think, the best case scenario for what this show is. I'm not trying to wish it to be something else. No. But to bring it full circle to answer your question I enjoyed the scene you're talking about because I think that Gail Rankkins slate playlayful smirk on her witchy face is the closest deead ass Solemn show has come to any sense of humor. a gun Yes, that's right. I do enjoy that So I enjoy Metssmith and Gail Rankin sharing the screen. At no point was I like Aha, This is a door opening into what the show is going to be because I do not understand what the show is going to be unless I've signed up for a history of Westeros cllass You may have Apparently I have. You may have. and I've been truant and you're not allowing it. I thought Laryis and Aegon were like a kind of breath of fresh air, even though obviously both deformed men one whose skin is still burning off, apparently. Yeah, so you get smelled like my kitchen this morning a little bit. They are also completely on the same page and how they're acting So that there is just like a much more of like a like naturalistic style going on between those two Yeah, most of this show is like, I have walked into a chamber and I am like, my queen, you know whichich by the way, is also the Bear seeason five, but I can't wait to talk about that. We can actually It's just people walking into rooms going, Hey, can I ask you a question? What a golden age of people walking into rooms to talk to someone else in the room? Oh because television's got so many other ideas than walking into rooms. No, we always come back to the classics. You're not wrong You're not wrong. Anything else you wanted to hit from HOTD before we move on? No, I just Can you explain Rain is the one who who ghost rode the Dragon and that was like Yeah. I screwed up. Yes. And she went to the ail. She went back to the ail where she was She was Basically on an extended babysitting gig with some of other Rhaenyra's kids and like was just trying to get them out of harm's way. And because she hadn't claimed a dragon Ret, she was given this sort of belittling task She goes out there Yeah. It's the veil. Yeah She finds Sheep stealer ' we've all agreed, that's his name. Feral. Yeah. Fins him. Yeah, in so much as she claims him but can't get him to do anything she wants half of what she wants but then the other half is kind of like, whatever is down there is getting lit up. He does the thing he does the thing that she wants. Do does it? across the board. Yeah. And then she both sides it. She flies him back to the veil, right says to Jane Can I get some refuge here? Jane's like, Nah,ight. And she's like, I have dragon I'll protect the veil. and she's like I just won't look for you. Yeah. You can you can have that hill that we're going to pretend isn't there Is that what you were asking? What ifone did that for us in like Somerset? Like you done I'm not gonna go over here where this cottage is. You could just a rough sleep out in the meadow somewhere I'm going to turn your Charlie Rose bit back on you for ling And Rinna, I know you from where But she's one of the kids. Who's kid? She's Bayla's ster. Right. Oh Bay Yeah Bela is Corlus's granddaughter. I mean it's mixed up. You gotta look at F tree. You can do the work. You can get the map of Westeros out, you can get the familyam tree out You know, if you want, you can Google Google your ass off Chris and find out what happens Man, I'm forty nine years old Like, you know, can Google. like I first of all I'd still ask Jeeves. I'm going backwards. Yeah. I'm not Googling, it's just I'm not doing their AI nonsense It's not even a good search engine anymore You don't Google. No What do you use I use my brain canter. I just have a certainty about things. It's like what we used to do We would just be like, do you remember how free it was to like be at a bar and to start talking about some cartoon? We mis remembered from the eighties and being like, No I'm pretty sure that was real that we were young, our brains were sharp fresh and often superpowered. and we were like, I have complete recall all of this shit. all of space and time Yeah And now I'll be like Do you remember that thing you said yesterday? and then I will have I will sund down and not be able to remember. A, what was said yesterday, but B why I brought it up in the first place. Yeah. It's true. We did have a beautiful moment last week though. This is this is a positive spin on this. where I texted you something that I just remembered you had said on the pod and I thought was so charming. And you said, who's this? No, you knew You have no recollection of saying that. No memory. Yeah. This is what happens when you are on microphone five days a week is I just can't remember. Do you think that you honestly, that would be good. Like I hope I do likeike I would love to be brought in front of Congress. and I can just say Honestly, I don't I don't know Yeah, but I do not recall, but Kai and Kaa have an archive You're going to get undone. Senator Senator Cassidy is That certainly looks like me But I just don't remember saying. I'm just picturing like like Sheldon White House and like Bloum andfhal being like And so you characterize the events of january sixth thousand. Why are those guys still senators? they are, ye Yeah There Oh so you meant like, I they you were like disisssing them No. I was just I couldn't remember if Sheldon was still rocket it. Yeah. Sheldon's he's still he's still, you know, the great state of Rhod Island. Yeah, who are not participating in the fair offfairs In Washington, all the states. Rhode Island is not. No. Anyone else not? The commi corridor is not participating pretty much. That's sick. Yeah So that'ss that's New England. prettyretty much And Pennsylvania. Is AJ Brown Wedon on that? I'm just trying to like unite the streams here You know, you know what, you know what I'm wondering th them There is a remarkable archive of You now and your takes and you know, piece by piece, your personal history, even our shared history. sureure They're gonna smone your ass Oh, make me like make an AI bot it. There's gonna be Don't you think It might be a decent to good hang AI Chris Am I wrong? Like I feel like Is this whole thing? Do you think Anthropic could win back? federal government if they were like they the new agent is Chissy And he just if it wasn't got linus. It was just you laughing. If every time you're like Chry, what's this rash? And it's just like, you know what? in Lion is season two, episode four, Joe played by Zoe SZaltana asks the same thing. First of all, listeners know that there was a period in two thousand four, five, and six when you watch so many episodes of House MD. I would ask you medical advice. And you pretty much told me if it was or wasn't Lupus. And you were one hundred percent right. It was never Lupus. Um Have I just blown the lid off this thing I'm sure I'm sure like I don't think we're the first people to be in danger of getting completely digitized and then obviated. Not me This is all an act. This isn't even me. You guys don't even know my real name So you actually love House of the Dragon. You don't know what I like So's why I constantly zag to defeat the machines This episode is brought to you by Fanouel Predicts. You can predict the summer socer showcase action. All the way to the final match with Fandle predicts. All you have to do is sign up to get your twenty five dollars bonus fromom the opening game to the final whistle, stay locked in with every pass, every goal and every moment that moves us closer to crowning a champion. sign up now for your twenty five dollars bonus on Fandle predicts. go to fandle dot com slash predicts to sign up. That's fandle dot com slash predicts to get your twenty five dollars bonus disclaimer Offered by Fandl Prediction Markets LLC, a registered futures commommission merchant, eighteen and over restrictions apply. S terms at fandl dot com slash predicts slash bonus dash offer dash terms So we had initially talked about doing the bear in chunks, like doing three, three three, two. We're not doing a show on Thursday. We've both finished the series. Yeah due to the nature of which they released the show, obbviously a binge, but also in, you know The first seven episodes were made made available to the press and then The final episode went up U onn Friday, Thursday, right Thursday night I mean, all the episodes went up concurrently. so the first time that was when and then I watched it on Friday R. And I think that as we sort of saw on our previous conversation about the first few episodes were you very Catholic of you were like, you said we were going to do three, I did three. U And then I was like, I watched all seven and I have a completely different opinion Let's just finish it. That's what happens when AI hallucinates. justust doesn't even listen prompt. I'm sorry, I just need your social seecurity number beforefore we finish this That does sound challenging. Have you ever considered a murder? So let's talk about the rest of the season of the bear. This is season five of the bear. so Spoilers for the entirety of it. spoilers for all of the bear Fair warning. It does seem anecdotally that especially with an eight episode runtime this season, which is the first eight episode season, I believe since the first Get it done ten for the past few seasons It does seem like people just binge the show. It does. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know many people who savor it, especially this season, which was so It was not. I do not I will go to my grave People at FX, even Christopher Story could tell us like no, no, no, it's episodic. L I want people to like watch it and take it some timee No, not this. This is a tasting menu of a season. You were supposed to sit there for the whole thing. That's what one day, well then with a coda. And I think that you it's meant to be enjoyed as much together as possible. So with that being said, ye After watching the first three episodes and being like I'm as close as I ever have been to sending this back to the chef. How do you feel about it after watching the complete after enjoying the complete meal U I thought that episodes seven and eight were compelling and lovely and a nice coda to a series that now I feel confident saying should have ended two or three years ago Um I thought that the show into action when cooking actually started. So that's episode five, really. Five or six I So five is when they start They open, but nobody has shown up, right U the moment that the season suddenly had a pulse to me was when Carmi cooks the lamb and pours a little tinato, tinato on top of it. Um But it's Chekov Tano It was Chekov Stonato. That tuna I mean, and point, I appreciated the moment when it all suddenly seemingly goes wrong in seven because Breaking plates is a lot better than spinning plates, which is really what the show have been doing for twenty or pless episodes Or did you justess it? Yeah, wrote that one down. I wrote that one down. You were right. Did you see my eyes No, but I was like, that's really good if you're just If you're just dealing. No, every so often in my notes app, there's like a line where I was like, Coach. Cracks knuckles, get that Grandling call and. I get every so often. No, this I mean, honestly, this is one of those times only because You wish you had like two thousand words. Be the totality of it is deserving of it and the relationship to the show is complicated enough that I think no matter what we talk about now, it's not really going to capture the full extent of it. Um because I think there's very little way to express the nuance necessary to say that It is I think it is impossible now, maybe in a few weeks or months with some hindsight that might change, but I think it is impossible now for me to think of this series as a success burn apart from the fact that the first two seasons are two of the best seasons TV of the century Is that enough? Honestly, probably U and it was certainly enough to give me some pleasure end of this season the sheer amount of time spent characters, as we were joking about before, I don't know if everyone listens to each segment, but with House of the Dragon The majority of this season up to the moment when it kicks into action is people one character walking into a room saying, Hey, can I ask you a question? and they talk about something that happened in the previous episode. There is no momentum from scene to scene. There is no build. There is no individual story other than Oliver Platt and fucking Brian Koplelman driving around Chicago yelling at people about air rights, a story that also goes nowhere just to kind of get out of the claustrophobia of the restaurant I thought it was extremely frustrating. And I think you could capture all of that. And I do want to talk about the positive things of those two episodes. I don't want to get too far off the path with that The arrested paralyzed nature of the show is captured best in the absolute u petrification of its main character. from I believe, midway through season three until he puts on a tie in episode five hundred eight Um Jeremy Allllen White is a bizarrely stoic Easter Island statue of himself standing in the background of this season of TV Is that a story worth telling, where Syiddney takes over and everyone else steps up and he learns that he actually has a team behind him to catch him if he falls or trust falls That's a meaningful story Did he have to be on the show to prove it? Did it have to take this long to get there? I genuinely don't know And that's when we start to go into the place where I don't necessarily want to get into, which is Wh asks for this and what argument do they make to do it? Be It was such a struggle to get to a place that I think was deserving. Okay so I'll try and hit some of your points and we can just make this into more of a back and forth rather than like and allow me to retort kind of thing I'll say that beyond you called a compelling I found seven to be deep deeply moving. you know, like both because I think this is what I alluded to last Thursday There's An authenticity, I think, to the characters and the performances, whether or not they are always being put in a position of maximal ertainment value or interesting storytelling is completely up for debate and your mileage may vary with that bite The behaviors and the emotional states of a lot of these people ring true to me. and Some of their experiences ring very true to me. And to watch them get some kind of Farsis, but also honestly to watch them actually in action. Yeah again doing like they do. Yeah. first time in a long time to see them kind of like Be together and moving around and helping one another and hurting one another and yelling at one another, but also like improvising and finding solutions and fixes. I found it really, really effective and honestly the Karmi stuff was like secondary to me. I found myself just really, really blown away by Eban Moss backrock this season. That that's And the Richie character I think you could make an argument that this show is more about Richie and Sid than it is about Carmi. And term in terms of journey, in terms of transformation. Absolutely. we can Here's the magic trick. Richie goes from a guy screaming about inceells and, you know, blade Runner and can't control himself and is essentially like keeping the place alive dealing Coke in the alley. right to a six week stage. experience it ever where he Is that how long he's there? Sorter. Shorter. However long, but not very long he's it ever. And he comes out the other side with a completely different worldview and a completely different set of priorities. We can debate whether or not that's realistic It's realistic.'s the Chris Ryan story. Absolutely. Look at him I mean, Bill Simmons finishing school. That's right. And only took fourteen years. I always thought that his character this season Bressed himself through action Even if that action was doing the like table like the NBR kind of there. Yeah, that kind of like, I heard this on a podcast. I think I'm supposed to do this kind of Um, Coping mechanisms. And his conclusion of going to Japan and getting to see the Ninja museum and going with Jess, but also like Even that moment with him and Carmi in the freezer where' just like, I've never been on a plane. Yeah. And and that that was like That felt earned. I felt like I'd been on the road trip and we finally got to the Woodorow Wilson Red stop together. I Uh, What was Joyce Ejoy something Yeah But Joyce is a man, we found out Oh you know that? I did not know that. Yeah. We're talking Newersey turnpike. Sorry I'm distracting. Evan Mus Bachack's performance abbsolutely is the beating heart of the show. The transformation of Richie is beautiful thing to watch and it's also something that I don't want to take for granted. One thing that happens when you have a show in your life with the consistency of the bear is that you begin to blur the lines between charter and character and you just begin to assume that they show up and are just You know, it's second nature to them. You almost forget about the magic trick and watching not just where he started that character and where he ended that character and realizing that he was holding something consistently the whole time. And then you see an interview with him or you see a video clip of him talking to someone And he's a distinctive looking guy and he looks different when he is not being richy. I mean is he is completely subsumed into this character and understands him on a cellular level. and the wins of the show. I mean To be clear, like I've never really had a problem with the pathos of the bear. Like it is a big sloppy bloody rare steak in terms of its emotions. Got an open heart Yeah. And him excelling and making things happen for people and the recurring mantra in seven of I got you. and how you kind of fake it tntill you make it when you speak to people you care about that repeating it and then they do have each other that they do dig deeper and find something, was meaningful. I mean, and it was effective. And I really, really enjoyed that. I think I had trouble with the how long it took to get to a place that was already We were already on the precipice of it, if that makes sense did think that there were some smart decisions looking at the show through his lens. like there was more there were more there were more places for him to go, whereereas I did feel other characters were kind of just playing the hits. whether that's the opportunity they were given on screen or the performer themselves, I'm not sure One thing that I didn't love in the season, for example was like Lionel Boyce, who plays Marcus, who I really like the journey of this season, the journey of the character overall, which is becoming more and more morose and serious and dramatic and then culminates in him basically having a personality transplant for six and seven. Now I understand it's because his father's coming and he's feeling pressure, but I also just felt the heavy hand of we need some friction to occur in this abbssolute love fest that is the bear. I think between him and Lucas specifically, but I think it was also like You can't There's no jeopardy if all these people are essentially like deep down geniuses who all get along this, but also like, you know, Marcus' whole problem in the kitchen has been how deliberate he is. Like they've always wanted him to go faster. They've always wanted And what this last service or the last service of the bear shows is like This is the Maximum amount of nothing goes right But when nothing goes right, like the creativity is actually sparked. So that's where Carmi thinks because he's dropped this lamb the last lamb that the entire night is ruined. but it's actually like unlocks him once they get his back to create Brioche out of nothing. Yeah. and finish off Marcus' last dish so that the Michel and Star guuy who' just a guy just a guy can have like the dessert of a lifetime. And everybody gets to basically be the best versions of themselves during that dinner. It's like the idea of having a cigarette and beer soaked. door party patio next to a Michelin starred tasting menu is Would that work? Do Is there a place like that? I don't know, but that sounds pretty cool. If And if there is, it would be in Chicago. And it allows the facts to be the facts. You know what I mean? Instead of asking us to be like all these guys turned into like Mator Ds from heaven, like they are like, no, I'm the guy who like when everything's kind of going wrong, I'm like, dude, let's go out and smoke a cigarette You know? Like that's kind of fun. And I thought that the reason why the season worked for me, even if it felt repetitive to you, like where you're like it's just people walking into rooms and asking each other how they're doing or like what did they think of what just happened five minutes ago? First of all, that's basically what offices are like. L they are very repetitive of like just going like, hey, he's like did you see that thing? and what are you we going to do about this thing Maybe that's not great television, but it did it wasn't crazy to me that it was happening. But where the third and fourth season, especially the third, if I'm remembering correctly had a lot of like reallyally intense close ups isolation can't really tell if this person is in the same room? Not on in the morning show level, but like it's about like almost trying to get interiority by boring into people with the camera This season got into tiority by putting like people on like a stage Face them together I mean, the restaurant is shot completely differently. It looks like a sound stage to me And I thought I thought that they got where people were at in their lives by doing rather than sayaying For me. Your point about Michelin Star dining, like I think that one of the interesting moments of tension in seeven was the images of people going into the dining room and then we see their perspective and we see people enjoying themselves and ce celebrating And then that's countered with or juxtaposed with Richie being like, get the fuck up, get the fuck up. which is a feeling that actually doesn't really engender a nice experience in a restaurant when you are being rushed out and the idea that like ten minutes per course is ninety minutes I don't know if people would walk away being like, that was really a special celebration. But that tension was interesting even to They might have like, and now do you want to go ahead sign the smoke of bl? Low rails with some Hams Yeah. Yeah I thought look, to use the show itself is so drenched in food culture that I think it actually is appropriate to use metaphors in this case and I don't know if you've read or anyone listening has read some of the recent reviews of the French laundry Now the French laundry is text of this show. How you say the go TK The go TK Thomas Keller who helped Carmi trusts a chicken Yeah and a flashback that was reused liberally in the season as well Um The thing about the French laundry when it opened was that it was so quietly confident and revolutionary and every dish felt like it came from the mind of a genius, and it was an incredibly special experience because you traveled for it, know you were up in the Napa Valley and part of mid course meal, you walk through the garden, you go to the kitchen, and a lot of what people in America think of as the finest ofined dining or destination dining comes from that He then became Thomas Keller, became a celebrity, and people would, you know ent an enormous amount of money to eat there. And then he kind of franchised the bakery thing and he opened per se in New York, which tried to give you the French laundry experience at a mall in Columbus Circle. And recently, both per se and the French laaundry have been rereviewed by New York Times critics and by San Francisco Chronicical critics And they've been pretty Rough Basically being like the salmon cornetto is a brilliant idea, but it's also like someone showing up at you know freeze London and I'm like, I've painted a titian. Someone already did that. Like this is part of our culture now and we're responding to it and There's a freshness issue here So I think you are right to point out that The show's magic was when people these beautiful actors and these beautiful characters and the sensitive emotional camera was digging something out of the raw ingredients that we were given on the screen And then the show kept going back. oping to get a similar flavor pop from those same scenes, and it was diminishing returns I would I would I would point out the scene Robert Townsend, who's given one of the best performances in the history of the Bear in his like four or five appearances as Sydney's father The scene where he where the two of them are at the diner in the finale is beautiful scene. It's completely successful and it's pure bare because it is so naturalistic and so emotional and clever and lovely and lived in. And you're like, was there a script or they just arere they just having a good time and you could feel it work and it still works sometimes. And then there's a scene where like Marcus and Carmi are talking, and Marcus is just in order to explain himself is basically saying what I only imagine is Chris Door or one of his writers experience turning on the Criterion channel, watch it live the night before Marcus is suddenly trying to explain himself through the prism of some dark foreign movie he saw the night before. I'm like this It feels phony to me. This feels staged and artificial and is trying to mine something out of very little. Everything you' saying, I appreciate and speaks to the love that I have had for the show I feel frustrated. Yeah, maybe I'm maybe I'm just a little bit sappier or maybe, you know, like Sid saying fire Brussels to Tinov really like that got you? Yeah, man I think that like there are different examples pop culture of things That will hit you. And I know for instance that like you're very like susceptible to examples of Fathers and daughters, for instance. We don't know why. Yeah. I just mentioned Robert Townsend in Iebie scene. Let's talk about the conclusion of the show a little bit. She, uh One major thing from the conclusion of the show Yeah I really respect Sydney packs internationally the way I pack We have the same opinions about one of every over the counter drug easily reachable. Yeah, just for confidence And more than that Half isanx is really all you need She's right That was a really good point. That was good too. I felt bad for for that's a long flight for Richie to be in coach at the window. He's in coach, but he's at the window and he's got a lovely companion. J just in middle. Although maybe I couldn't tell if was that a three seater or two seater? Run the tape Let's go back. G an economy pllus or what do we do? Comfort pll? I mean I think Pellgrino could here's the way I thought. I bet Pellegrino could have flown him Comfort pllus and there is a direct flight Chicago to Tokyo. But did they also invite Jess? Did he get comfort? And then he said, you know what instead, give me two economy seats? Right. And in fact, one full bar of .s Pellegrino, like we're just we're totally down to work with you on however you w to do this. Whatever you need The conclusion is that Carme goes follows through with his decision to leave the bear. Right. Um, Sid and Richie and the gang are going to continue to do the restaurant. Um Ebras idea to franchise the beef has come through. There is a very lovely moment where he calls the character that was played by Rober Reiner and says, as you wish. I'm glad you ca Call back to Princess Bride. That was There L lots of littlegg Easter eggs in there. They go fast Mohito boats or go fast boats, Mojitoos. Yeah, but there's a w Fi password. There was also some cute little nods like when, um Dee asks if no, what it's not Dedee Who asks if Sid and Carmie are in a relationship? somebody ased Pete that and And he's like, there are theories. There are theories out there. I mean, there was a little self awareness. And I think even their hug at the end was like Is this fucking happening? And it was just like, no these guys just like that's good. So the bear the conclusion of the bear as a restaurant, I think that there is like a real obvious feel good aspect to that I want to talk to you about Carmi's Wait, I have one other question about the the restaurant The moment when we find out the fact that it wasn't Star Man wasn't Starman, that it was the guy that we all thought it was from God previous season three, season four, I don't knowve it is no Kight I believe it's four. Middle of season four Um I thought that was well done. I think I think that really tracked with the heart of the show that You know, that there's something beautiful about restaurants, but something that is also very temporary and fleeting and you can't create magic You can just move on to the next night and try it again. So so this beautiful night was not the one that will be memorialized in the review. but Did you feel there was any kind of I'll say the word cowardice in the No, you didn't get a star to Did you feel like that was Yeah, ' it's just like Everybody it's look under your seat. Everybody gets car keys Did you feel any of that? Or were you just in your bag about the Brussels sprout still and you were feeling it? What do you want to have happen to these people? I mean, I kind of wanted them to be like, No star, but it's like a promising review and now you can go build this into the next one. I think that I'm being intentionally provided. We need to have some sort of validation in that they've made the star a thing that's going to keep this place open. Right, right? Like their price point is probably too high. I thought that by the end of it Culinarily, like they arrived at a place that was like the middle ground between the beef and Carmi's kind of like overworked st That true So doing Coke ribs and U That's the French Montana tape that I was telling you about Doing like Sindney's mother's ribs Um Tina' Brussels spprouts you know, the banana foster, banana the Sunday that Marcus is making, like the things that these guys are all making, are to grab a phrase from the top chef judges, they're cooking their food. They're telling their story. you know, They're putting their heart on a plate. They are. And so I did not mind that the end of a series had a Happy ending. like I ye I want the race You require me to be like, we got two stars, but I'm staying now And' still the b. No, this is what you wanted to ask about I mean this has been probably among among people talking about the bear is like ending it on seven or in halfway through eight is an enormously satisfying thing. The birthday cake for Richie's daughter, like the whole cast gathering Hart in it fucking zooming in, you know, like Bob Odenkirk showing up. Odenkirk I thought that was really n. bear. Yeah U And I really liked that they did not make Claire the like I gott to go see about a girl, you know, like I know it was referenced of like, did you call heret and he's like, I'll call her tomorrow. I For as much as I am ragging on the show for its Fast sprint. towards emotion at all times I thought the restraint shown in the end was very, very lovely I really thought that that was a nice gesture cararmie didn andt wake up the next day and turn into fucking ic relief Robin Williams. Like I'm glad that like he's still haunted and still like not a great hang and and has his issues, you know? Yeah, I thought that maybe to maybe almost to a point of like its detriment where it was like I kind of wanted personality transplant for this character Yeah at the end and he's going into What is ostensibly a job interview at the end and talking about like H trauma. I want to talk about that. And I also want to discuss, I mean we're not people to say it, but who's the bigger Chicago legend weatherman Tom Skilling or Bonnie Hunt T we can't decide that. Melane's coming from that crown, man, he's playing rigly. That's true. That is true. I don't want to leave Like the cooks. I don't want to leave a bad taste in people's mouth here. Like at its best, this show was such a brilliant and beautiful exploration of Thrapy with drama. and with professionalism and work and the realities of living in a city and being alive right now that I thought that the place where it ended, which was a really deep sense of the things that matter go on Whether it's Marcus saying goodbye to Luca, and you understand that people sometimes move in different directions, but they have a bond and they will be happy to see each other again, whether it's Claire and F in the, you know, the store or players minus B Larson just showing up for a day. and the celebration of. What's her name? was that Fanny? Fran? Francine? Francine And that it being a celebration for Richie's daughter that brings everyone out because ultimately getting together for a family and lifting each other up is something. Yeah. you find a physical space to make everybody feel special. it's like that's the goal of the restaurant Yeah. notot all restaurants. No but of life. And you get the sense that the restaurant itself could go away, you get a sense that people could come and go and leave, and Carmi could leave, but they have built something that is lasting if it is tended to. And I think that that was a beautiful summation of what the show always was. And as someone who briefly had a podcast about TV shows ending, like that needs to be celebrated. Don't sell yourself short, man. Ifrchitecture school doesn't work out, you can always come back to podcasts All of that was wonderful. Did you specifically car me leaving or not leaving? I think there was some confusion of the fact that he is interviewing for an internship and monologuing about his feelings, and then it is intercut with a the birthday party in scenes with him back at the restaurant So is the implication that he is back because this is still a family business and his friends are there Yes, But he himself is no longer shopping on. I did not think that he was like that interview went poorly. I'm back at the restaurant Did you think as management that the interview went well I don't think that I don't think Mulaney set him up to succeed. that the Mulane character being like, just share your shit. That's what's hot right now. I was like, I didn't I don't know if that's the case. Yeah, in twenty twenty six, I don't know if that's the best way. to get a fast track internship.ight I thought that the The idea of this guy who wants to Express himself through ar or express he wants to find a new ally for his creative spirit. I don't know anything about architecture or what kind of apprenticeship you have to go through or if Carm' been to college did nott t I don't think he did. I't think He's quite an education. I don't like what you can do if you've not been What do they say to him? What does Siddney say? What skills do you have? and he says N None Not true. He is a pretty good cook. Yeah. I mean I would say I always like sling burgers, you know, like Do you think that in the year twenty twenty six Franchising a sandwich shop for ghost kitchens is a mind blowing idea when they were all like, holy shit Oh my god Did you think that was so U you didn't I thought that the two I thought that the cheese computer I Uncle Jimmy here Was it necessary like get out of the get out of the restaurant, do something we got to have something else aside from like only shots at the restaurant I thought that the scene where they go to get to get the airoids from that lady and like there's Ray is somewhere they're like fuck you Ray that was kind of funny, but like also like Ultimately, it was like, can you imagine they got to the end of the show and they were like, that's a bad idea Abrh. Yeah. and they were like, and you got no stars and the restaurants closed. And I guess we wanted do birthdays are canceled. No, no. the last thing I'll say and then I do I want to make a bigger point about it is I hated the music. I think that was the other thing that took me out. I hated the TronS I. I I likeed I think it needs to be relax. I thought we I thought they overdid needle dropsree and for and I thought I am in general re pretty Deaf to like cool needle drop has nothing to do with what's happening. you know, like you're going to love Supergirl from what I understand. Well my point, like I just think that they've got we've gotten away from like builduilding out emotional textures of st with the original music because people are like so drunk on like and did you see the playlist that I made? you know, it's like, U the bears the official bear playlist on Spotify is awesome. I listen to it all the time. It's a great collection of music I thought they relied too heavily on three and four and I thought getting out of the way and having a albeit reminiscent of social network or manhunter or chief or whatever was Cool. It got out of the way of the characters and let them do the do the storytelling. I think that overall This is one of the most significant shows of our professional covering TV existence. I think that at its It was the most electric experienceed for. Yeah. It was It was fresh, it was bold, it was thrilling, it was Um so ambitious And also, I think in terms of just the uniqueness, I was dinging it for this last week, but I do think that the spirit of the show. I mean always take on the characteristics and the character of the people in charge of the shows. That is something that you can. honestly say, after working behind the scenes of some things for good or for ill And the spirit of the show being one of found family and inclusiveness being celebrated by Chris and his colleagues, including like his real life partner, Gillian Jacobs, who's on the show and good friends and people who've become close friends is a beautiful thing, especially in this fallen soon to be AI apocalypse that we all live in. But I do think that in many ways, the legacy of the show is the other side of the praise that we've given it for a long time, which is premiered and we were like, wow, this came out of nowhere has been in our life consistent will'll be consistent in our life every year, hit its deadlines, show up Make stars out of actors, not the other way around And, um kindind of go on too long and frustrate a legacy. that's a classic television legacy that one can be proud of, honestly, and one that we don't get enough of We don't get a lot of these days. When things arrive now, everything is so bespoke and crafted and labored over and then years in between We rarely just have this specific experience where you get something, it is wonderful and then There's some bumps on the way. Yeah, but it stays true to itself. Pretty rare. I mean, like it was more common Probably when we started doing this podcast, you know, where we were like Damn home in season five. that was the showtime model of. Yeah. Wow. But I This is one where I don't really have an intellectual argument against you. I'm just like, Mant a lot to me Made me feel things. Yeah. I D don't think that the last couple of seasons were on the level of the first two seasons, but I thought in some They lararge stretches of three where I thought the filmmaking was breathtaking. I thought the filmmaking generally and across the board was top of its class. And at the conclusion of it, really was like very cathartic for me in a way that I did not expect for it to happen. So it is forty seven episodes they made which is shocking unbelieable since twenty two. Do you hear that? Sounds like breakfast is ready Because Quakers coming in hot with morning nutrition. one hundred percent whole grain oats and a good source of fiber Fuel the rhythm of your morning and kickstart your day That sounds absolutely delicious. Fuel to start whatever's next. Quaker, official sponsor of FIFA World Cup twenty six. Your summer weekends fill up fast, but Crocx has your back. Road trips, beach days, last minute getaways, whatever's on the agenda, swing by your local store and find your new goat too Try it, style it, make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. Wock out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest crox store today flies taking over your kitchen, meet STEM's flying insect light trarap, An easy, mess free way to capture flying insects like house flies, fruit flies, gnats, mosquitoes, and moths Powered by UV light? STEM's light trap attracts, traps and kills ninety nine point nine percent trapped insects, all without chemical insecticides. And it works twenty four seven. No mess, no noise, no odor. Live life never bug. STEM. Visit STEMfbugs dot com to learn more Do you wantan to talk briefly about Star City before we get outt of here? Yeah, if you have the time. I just want to say one thing that's sort of an odd thing to lead with with this show And I hate to say it. Okay, because I want I want to bring Hollywood back whoever the mayor is It doesn't matter. And whoever in this room supports whichever mayor or candidate, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know who still might be writing in some of the people who we thought were falling off the bat. Where' they shoot this Vilmius Lithuania. We' got some really good extras in Lithuania. Do you ever lose the narrative thread thinking about how every extra on screen Most of them don't understand what's being said in the scene because they don't speak English Erinna Ana is following the American agent to the buses. Yeah lot of f and they'realking all through It's supposed to be Moscow a little bit confused about how far Star city is from Moscow because it seems like people are making multiple trips per day. It's kind of like where I live to Sycamore studios, you know? Like I complain about it, but I can get there. Yeah, but you don't have to like cleared incurity in multiple places. Honestly, LA andD. stopping me. When she's Following the American agent through Moscow and then through the bus station and onto the bus and different buses There's a vibrancy in a life to that that I was like Did we forget how to make sh it like this? Like I understand that those people may have gotten paid like two rubles and I don't want to Not the currency of Lithuania, but I think they take your point. For now. Not funny, not funny. I just think that that's the kind of thing where I would be like That's a pretty normal All peopleeople shadowing one another in spy stories, like we see them all the time off the screen, as did obviously. the last fifteen minutes, which were extraordinary. To your points. Bers for episode five six Five six, six. Yeah. to your point Um What we appreciate in filmmaking wherever it is shot is anythingthing that takes advantage of, maximizes, celebrates where it's being shot. Location shooting is a crucial part of U compelling filmaking. that's one hundred one, like it's a super basic comment, but we don't have as much of it as we would like because it is incredibly expensive You know, when you are making a TV production, one of the first things they say are what are your standing sets? What can we reuse? What can we amortize from season to season should the show get renewed? And then maybe if you've madeade sure you're going to use these sets for your five or six days, maybe you get two days on location and So you're limited in the beginning. And then you're even more limited if budgetarily, you are in an more expensive place where you have, you know The ruble doesn't go as far as it does. There are unions in labor whichich are good. Unions traditionally very big in that part of the world, though. Very good point. Should we delve into that? How many cananz of tuna did you pack for that conversation I don't think it is a blow against Minister John Void' caign to bring film back to Los Angeles to say that it looks really good I would rather just not be shoot shot in North Hollywood. It look looks really good where it is. So that is incredible. And I think the texture adds so much in every scene and not just on location, but the production design. because there are moments even I am not I am loving this show. But like there sometimes when like Ruskova and Chief Designer are having the same argument. I'm like, o, that's a different color tape in the background. it's electrifying. And if I pause and rewatch it and they're just saying the same things, maybe it wouldn't be as rich of an experience. The other thing that I hit my head against on this episode that I I think this is worth a longer conversation and maybe with the creators. Yes. When Anna Maxwell Martin in this episode does her thing. This is what I yeah, I think we want to say the same thing. At one point she goes, sort it out . And I'm like That's a British lady Did you just figure that out? No, but it felt culturally British. R. And and I have I wonder whether or not There are there are any there are people out there who feel like There's something lacking from like a essentially Russian soul here. Like there is something well almost like We are writing in the idiom or in the voice of like a certain kind of British. First of all, I think you're getting confused because that is also what I shouted at the sports bar onunday on Saturday when England couldn't put it in the back of the net against Panama in the first half. That's right. So maybe that a low block. That's partly confusing U I think that I look forward to if we do get the chance to talk to those guys who made the show There is both an appreciation for the detail of the Soviet block, but also there is a very convenient monster. I mean, Chief Designer calls her a monster in the sense that like I am no scholar of the Soviet space program. the degree to which this one woman is empowered to end the lives and the billion rubble investment in a mission to Venus because of what it may mean for the security apparatus and her career is wild excellent for the story becausecause every episode pushes all everything into the center of the table in a way that happen. Every decision that gets made by a character on this show imediately wind up affecting the next decision somebody makes. Immediately. design her being like, this is a secret mission. so it's not going to be on TV and nobody's going to know we did it. and her being like Hence why I can fucking kill these people. Yes, and we can just be like they died in a training accident in Siberia. Like There is consequences to every action and that's why it's such compelling television. and I don't mind that it's an hour and five minutes. Like I'm like And like he told Anastasia, she knows. like it's like everything kind of like is building towards this tension that I think is masterfully woven together. I don't remember for All mankind feeling like this, but maybe I'm wrong. And I do wonder where the specter of the for All mankind storytelling will kick in. One of the things that might be giving us all this pleasure in terms of like, wow, I can't believe how fast they're moving, however they're running right at every problem might be because Star City season two, which I think is not an impossibility, will pick up in the late seventies.ibike this might be our it may do time jumps in the same way, which we may have mixed feelings about because they have found so much fertile soil here. O is the fact that we're responding to it to this degree because they are not letting the grass grow beneath their feet, as they say. Sure. possibly in Russia, I really couldn't tell you. But I The end was the end of this episode is nuts I mean is It is I don't know if anyone listening this deep into the podcast, even into this deep into this segment are still on the fence about Star City. But if I were to tell you that the sixth episode of the first season of a show ends with a KGB security official demanding the pressure be cut on a manned space mission to Venus That is so met. Honestly I didn't even know you could do that from the ground. Here's my real question Is there really no tape delay? I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Like some strong radios. I want to be clear about something, and I'm sorry to make this personal for a moment, but you know, thanks to our good friend and colleague Sarah here, we were able to live stream on a private YouTube link My my daughter's Bob Mitzvah to my parents back in Philadelphia. This is twenty twenty six. This is the YouTube G Taration. And that took there was a two and a half minute delay Yeah Be my daughter was so the idea is that the Kremlin is invested in the space program. I gotta wrap it up there. So you don't o. ' I do think it would be a much longer watch if they were like, open the hatch. No And then a day and a half. they have like crystal clear like nextxt held chirp for these guys. Thanks to Kai and Kai. We'll be back next Monday, everyverybody enjoy your fourth There will be an Andy Greenwald will publicize. You might as well. You've given me some songs. I'm adding my ss. do make her anyize things that take place on other people's Spotify profiles. That like I have my own no, I'm just kidding. Of course I'm going gonna to do that. We have our annual barbecue playlist. which I only found out last year was to be played at of barbecue. So I just thought it was cool songs. But apparently it's not You don't nobody wants to listen to post hardcore all grilling. You do. This can be this is like a window into your experience. But I sent you some real cool dad rock. I will say There has never been Iicege. Yeah what? You just It will be so clear who contributed which songs And I think people have a good time with. We'll send that out on our rare social feeds, including the watchatchpod, underscore at Instagram. Everybody have a great weekend. We did it America didid it