Final Thoughts and Outro

This summer, fan dool is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uhuh Vollies? Y, Petters. Every goal is worth more on fan du. So let there be goals. New customersk get up to one thousand dollars in bet reset tokens when you bet five dollars five daily. Total one plus and present in select states often required, Refund issed is n not withdrawal bonus bets that expire seven days after receivt. M minimum five dollarars wage are required for five consecutive days. Max refund two hundred dollars per day. restestrictions apply including token expiration, seatful terms at fan dool dot comot slash sportsbook gambling problem, call one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred my reset And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match they spread He's reaching for the buuffalo wing. Perfect Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's good for Cat of Pepsi too. Incredible to finish Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. He just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match Poetry in motion I sports to have to clear theom Stand up and walk And welcome to the Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer. com and join me in the studio final service, Chef. It's Iegree Wald. Oh, eighty six my takes. G It's good to see you, brother. backack here in the home of burning insulation in downtown Los Angeles, and I feel good, man. I feel superpowered. If you hear a little frog in my throat. It's not hard living. it's pure ammonia fumes. It is Thursday what day is it? Thursday the twenty fifth. So we're recording this at ten AM of the Bear We'll release this final season at six PM Pacific nine PM Eastern. We're gonna talk about some of the first few episodes, but more broadly about the Bearars a proroject. to probablyil if we spoilers through three, ' that's the project. doesn't really I think a lot of what is broadly available about what this season is about is out there caterpillar eyebrows going up and down. We're also going to talk about the first episode of the second season of the agency, but I think both of those conversations will be broad enough that people don't have to get too nervous about spoilers A couple things for you at the top. We're going to talk also because the bear and the agency wind up being binges. Yeah. We're going talk a little bit about the binge model. I also want to talk to you about the DSA rising in New York City No, I'm just kidding. Oh.' very s' going up in rural France. No, I wanted to just say that you can email us at the watch at Spotify. com and you can follow us on Instagram at the WatchPod Underscore and you can watch us on YouTube at ringer TV along with the prerestige TV podcast And you can listen to us and watch us on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. How you doing couldn't be better. How How has the tenor b bit of our feedback from the fans on the more bespoke platforms like email? L are people People digging it because Yeah, I think a lot of people are just like here are my two cents. I would say that's generally generally where we're at is like people being like, either you forgot to say this or I like that conversation, I'd like to add this as my two cents. So we are really running with my father at a film festival strategy Ipect comment aion. I respect that. I was only saying it because my favorite feedback that I got from the more traditional, you know, I'm more rough and tumble like in the cololosiseum. You know what I mean? And my favorite thing that was recently posted on on Facebook on our Facebook was Wow, does Andy not know Toy Story four was released in twenty nineteen? And I'd like to turn to the camera and say Abssolutely fucking didn't Sorry. what did you say it was I said I said that I lumped that movie clearly unfairly in with light yearar and COVID release. Yeah. Yeah I noticed that when you said it and I was protect you by maybe asking for an edit, but I was like, let him learn from his mistakes. No, I appreciate. Leave me out there for the second half, even though I gave up a critical. E there may be a concussion, even though Brazil scored three goals I have to learn from the schoolkeeep. man. The World Cup rolls on. what else rolls on? The superhero comic book movie era rolls on? Does it I highly recommend people read Sean's newsletter today about Supergirl and the state of superhero movies and the era that we have been living through Um It's a really great piece. I have not seen Supergirl yet. I have been taken aback almost with the sort of Not negativity because it's part of the job. and Lord knows I'm sitting across the table from one of the grades when it comes to serving it up. But it's like I think people are ready to be done with this and they're certainly ready to There's no more no more passes. We're all out with passes. You sent me the veteran critic owned Gleliberman's review for variety. It've always had Gleibberman. Interesting muchuch like my tooy story for Dartthroat to saying. I just Gleberman, Gleliberman, you, I hesitated I hesitated. I sent you own Gleliberman or own Gleliberan's variety review, which send me both school fucking backack of the head pan It's a real like Let's take Tommy out to get made. No, Billy Alcock walked into a room and there was nothing but Mylar on the floor. So yeah. and I said it to you and I was just like, man, Knives are out for this one. No, you actually said because you are a very good textter. You said mortal combat voice, fatality It was a great text. Yeah, Great text. Thank you. And you were like, I feel sad about this. I do. I don't know why. I have no in this game, I have no shares of Warner Brothers Discovery Paramount plus Norad Northroup Grummin Corporation And I'm not even a DC guy, you know, as you know. Yeah. Shout out Joe House But I feel like there is still something about bigig Jyim guns. approach to the DC universe that I as a comic book fan wanted to work I' not saying it's all Like if this movie is a miss and tanks committed to this project. was I thought it was very interesting that another story that was in the trades this week as the review embargo was breaking of Supergirl was that David Ellison went down to Atlanta to the set of Man of Tomorrow to sort of haveave a chat withith Peter Saffrin and James Gunn And so at least optics suggests that he's still About maybe Superman flying up to the reflecting pool and taking a big drink of the water like Mm, that's good water There's no algae or bleach in it. Superman Man saved this pool. Superman No, Lis Lane being the next. That's be two hundred and fiftieth. The next guest on Usa Vance's storytelling hour. I too a pat your knee. It's great. Do she have a pod? I don't know what that was. Okay. Katie Miller, you thinking of Stehven Miller's wife?. Did you see the cl This is how online are you or are you not feel you don't want to know where I'm online. Do you know what is Adam Friedelland sent you? Is there a whole other internet? You know what happened the other day? is almost instantaneous to its publication. I was notified a friend who will I'll leave him anonymous for a moment. Who was just like, arere you aware? And it was Taylor Sheridan on Joe Rogan for two hours. And within the first ten minutes of this podcast appearance Taylor Sheridan talks about a deaf, possibly autistic horse that he has that sees ghosts blames the Qataris for indoctrinating young children with trans ideas and also like takes a giant drive by on Trump and the rule of like how he's not respecting the rule of law. This is awesome because one thing, you are closer to the Sheridan verse than I am, but one thing that is often said to me from people who are remotely in the orbit is politics would surprise That's actually true. People have said that to me. It's not as cut and dry as you think. Exactly. I think he believes in I think he' in personal liberties. I think he does. I think he did. Who among us? Yeah. Anyway I didn't to interrupt you. This was much more exciting. I was to be a cheerful anyyway. Also big picture, longtime listeners will notice that I was about to get like real deep in the weeds of the possibilities of like multi panel comic book storytelling and you were like, a man was on the Joe Rogan show talking about hor and his horse sees ghosts. Yeah. No, it's just that I still Superman was a flawed movie as you know Guardians the Galaxy movies while entertaining were probably also flawed in similar ways, but I like his approach to the adaptation of comic books to another medium where he does run towards the things that make comic books specific and unique and often a little bit weird. likeike there's also a flying dog Also can be they can be brightly lit, brightly colored, silly things can happen with a, you know, it can be It can be broadly colored in terms of the color palette as well as the pathos I like that. Yeah. And I also just felt that for what it's worth in this fallen world that is, you know, now the Krypton is gone. he was it really did seem like he was building a u cinematic universe I don't want to say in an autorish fashion, but in a very, very idiosyncratic fashion. that these are the projects that he wanted to use to introduce something as opposed to just bringing out the big guns and sitting back and watching the box office. I think it's worth noting that he was brought on with Peter Saffrin at a moment when the DCU was still All right in midfight, you know, so for instance, Supergirl was coming out of the Andy Machete Fash movie, I believe. and it was Sasha Kae was playing Supergirl and it seemed like there was going to be a Supergirl movie. Yeah. And I believe that might be Anna Nagaras The original script. I'm not sure she she retains soul. She retains Sl screen writing credit and even got a specific shout out in that OG O andG's review. Yeah Everything I've read about this movie suggests that this is not one script. Yes. I probably agree with that. The funny thing about this is is like when Gun took over, his Big idea was We're never going to make one of these unless the script is absolutely rock solid. Yes And I just wish like Jimminy Click was there to be like, reallyally? Jore. You know, because it's fucking hard, man. They make these they make these fucking dates. They're like a m this day. It's not shot yet. It's not written yet. It's like, but we need a DC movie on July orun june twenty eighth. And it's like, all right lots of things can go but also now and then. But also they're daisy chaining them in the sense that like they didn't they You could say that it's a vote of confidence, or you could say it's the opposite by introducing Millie Alcock's Supergirl and her connection to the fucking Superdog at the end of Superman. Yeah and then immediately either boosting or just signaling that Superman is going to be in this movie also, that these are all one thing again. And I do think that Gunn's statement that we're not going to do this without a solid script is just Absolutely sensible. You know, that's our friend Damon Lindeloff, that was his plan to with Star Wars very, very specifically. We're not doing this to meet a fan expectation or a release date doing this to satisfy a fictional history or meet a trilogy the stated goal of that sadly now gone project was we're going to make one singular quality film. And anything else good could spring from that. Now there's maybe five movies in the history of superhero movies thats that's critia. crriteria. I totally agree How can you make a single solitary scripted statement of a film that also requires the viewing of many, many other films. I mean, that is also why books tend to be ongoing. Issue six. Issue six could be really good, but you kind of have to read five and seven. Yeah, but that takes like two minutes to do that. D read those? Yeah. you swipe it on the app I mean if you're just like, no, I. I'm going through it. The reason I'm being defensive about Anna Garre's script is I don't know if you know she is af Frinch school graduate. I don't think that this is representative of her talent Nor the Quaker light within her, which we see and we share. But I guess I just felt kind of bummed for two reasons, one being Overall, I would like this to be I would like it to have a personality because I think these types of movies make a case for their continued existence if they have some creative spark or verve and aren't just, you know, boilerplate onto the next one. And two, I do hate Uh, when a vitriolic online discourse is met by a on the other side of the battlefield by a good faith critical panning. Yeah. and then you're not even, you know the people who hate Millie Ecock or hate a movie about a super powered wom. I just want to let know. I don't hate this because I'm misogynist. Exactly. You hate it because of the script. Yeah written by a woman. Yeah, I haven't seen it It could be good ay more about that. Well, I just think there's plenty of opportunity for like this could to be like there's a little bit of like, I think a tide building Yeah. that is led by Everybody kind of having their head turned around by obsession in backrooms and the enthusiasm for some of the original movies that are coming and even stuff earlier in the year like the drama where people are like, I want to go to the movies and see different stories that I've been seeing for most of my life or stories that look a little bit more like my story or stories that are just about different corners of the universe or different kinds of people And I think probably unfairly, movies like Supergirl, which have been probably in some form of gestation several years and had no idea that someone was going to make obsession and have it turn into the fucking hootie in the blowfish album on us. Like I think they're probably like this has nothing the two have nothing to do with one another, but you can't help but build them together and be like, the page is turned, man. and you're yesterday's news One thing I like about Unlike the DCUs thus far, one thing I like about the Ringer Corporation is that we do provide content for different groups and fan bases because I was alerted via Instagram that Danny Heifwitz didn't know Gwen Stefani was in no doubt. And yet you just I don't know that he's representative of any generation He's a very specific kind of person. But you so are you and you just specifically dropped a cracked rear view hoodie reference aboutbout a twenty twenty six film. So You know, you got to be who we are. It's the reason I actually mentioned that is like there is a certain point where you're like, is this people seeing obsession for the third time? Like like who hasn't seen it that wanted to see it? Do you think that there is fatigue? And then we can move on because like we haven't seen the movie I'm curious because I think the next stoped us before, brother. Get ready for the rest of the year of podcasting Um Like I think the next DCU movie is Clayface. Yes, which I'm very excited, which is, you know which is as of now. Yeah before Dave flies over to Atlanta and take a look at the gun. as of now is like a hard R horror movie. So I wonder if the mistake here, and again, it's premature to call it a mistake, but it seems to be sleep. heat check moment here for the for the Gnaissance was the mistake too much Tony and James gun content back to back because That's what he. was passionate about. and I think someone is clearly pumping the brakes on let's just have two batmen at the same time, which I think is smart for people who aren't following the story ree that we are The Robert Pattinson Batman movie, The sequel, directed and written and directed A againain by Matt Reeves, just went into production in London many years after the first Um during the interregnum between movies there was talk from the gun verse that there was going to be like a fun and Zanny Batman. That this one is like an elseworld's different multiversal Batman that he can do what he wants with, but we're going to have a Batman that's going to hang out with Milly Alcock and David Corns with Superman. and that's going to maybe be based on Grant Morrison's recent run where Batadman's son is Robin And I think they're probably like, let's chill the fuck out, which I think is probably good advice. But I wonder broadly speaking to your point about the desire for something organic, authentic, perhaps slightly democratic socialist Do you think that the element of these movies that might not be hitting anymore isn' just isn't the like the canonical fealty and the demand and the homework. but the shininess Is there something like, do you think there would be an appetite for a little bit more rough and tumbled DIY like the Safy Brothers Nike commercial. aesthetic in a super girl movie? It doesn't have to be suupergirl. I'm just wondering' a shiny CGI thing. I don't know why it's tracking where it's tracking fromom what I can understand by seeing the trailers. I'm like I don't really know that there's a ton more in this movie that isn't in the trailer that sounds like this is a A girl who's got some trauma, who's got a bad attitude and wears a blondie shirt and she has like a standalone fight with a guy and saves her dog and then learns the power of family, right green light in the room. Right. But like I got it, you know, and then once you sort of get to that point where You're not feeling one of the things that's sort of been Always like I've hitting my head against with a lot of these comic book movies other than Nolan's Dark Knight, James Mangold like Logan, like a couple of others. is that they are pretty visually dull to me Yeah, you know, so Part of the reason why people read comic books is because they're fucking cool to look at and we've made dozens of movies that look like shit And I think people might just be getting tired of that.'s I think that's a more specifically correct way of what I was trying to That's just my eye. Maybe there was a bunch of people who are like, I look at two dimensional video games all day and this is cool. Like, you know, I mean, I liked Gun Superman because it was brightly colored. Like that like honestly I was like, this is different I had to just get one quick fire reaction from you before we get into the larger conversation for today, which is that there was a truly Like Egg just cracked. There is no there's no like sourcing to this yet. It's in the lower rung of of the internet movie world reporting that Zendaya is in talks too be the new Jason Bourn, whatever that looks like? Yes Um, and you say, what? I say This would herald an incredible new phase in my parenting relationship to my children, One that I think could probably Break things the right way finally for me You know? because they like Zendaya. they like is a very softw word. you didn't You did not take your children to see the drama And you say and do that Charlie Rose. Do it. I did not, I did not. but u nor have I shown them. Born Cortz You know what I mean? Sure And by quartet, I mean, there are only four born movies that you and I canonically recogncause the titular Jason Bourne movie where he plays a bare knuckled fighter in Eastern Europe. N heard of it. Yeah didn't happen. I like a leash of Candar in that movie though I like her and everything, but just you know what? just watch Irma Vp on HBO Max if you want your Vicander face. I serve that up to you. You really did. You are excited by this. I mean there's nothing to be excited about. No, but there are There are enough like ual it's beyond rumblings. like I heard we know people like who are in the mix for a next born movie conversation that I heard was primarily about the last time round getting Matt Dammon back involved that this would' going be Edward Berger directing at you. Yeah and Edward Berger was attached to directed and that there was, you know, that there was a script and that my sense is that that script had a little bit of Baton passing potential But those always work out. Th Lookission impmossible. What was the one with the first render? What was that three or four? Theission I impossible four It was the one was supposed to be theatalifa, yeah. Anyway, Yeahah, I would have to say that watching that Damon on the Odyssey press tour, it's unlikely to me that he is going to get in born in shape anytime soon that Is he not still in a d? like this. Like he is like, I'm so tired. He's like and Dat and and are like, Yeahah Mate that was kind of brilliant after. he's like, I had to walk up a mountain nine takes. withith an IMX camera on my back Wow, humumbling. Yeah I know you've been doing weight training recent. Do you have any you do I mean, like I'll be joining him soon. I'm sure. With an iMac camera strapped to your back for an upcoming podcast. I'm very excited for this. Its also is smart for Zendaya because One of the keys to her absolute fame and dominance is not just that she's one of the best actors of her generation,'s that she has very cleverly chosen busters, classy blockbusters to associate herself with. And that was she is actually having maybe the Patonic ideal of a Hollywood a twentyenties Hollywood stars career. agree where she is kind of going across the spectrum in terms of size of the role she's taking, but she's never like off the poster. You know? Like she's always going to be there. She's working with really interesting filmmakers and more importantly, rather than just being like, just sign me up for whatever you want to make like, it seems like The drama the Dune Odyssey A Ronnie Specter movie with Barry Jenkins was supposed to be her next thing that's shooting in the fall. And if she does this, I and Spiderm Man which is going to be the biggest movie the year Right pretty good Pretty great. I know that you have some takes to get off about Taylor Swif's upcom wedding, but we can save that for afterfter Dark Okay, because I I know you do too becausecause This is Let's put the socialist and democrat social. This is the one space where I know my children will never hear what I say. podcast closed by their fes on That is true that broke the seal for them. We have the bear and we have the agency. The Bear has as of recording yet to be released. The agency is entire in its entirety, the second season is up. Let's talk a little bit about binge model Before we get into the specific shows. And now I can't help but hear Jimmy Click every time I speak. Let's talk a little about the binge model Chr. There's nothing I love more than Jimmy Click, so it's fine. Do it Sould you ever see the one with him and Larry David? Yes The one with him and Bill Hadater may be along with the East Ben and Down Otakes my most watched YouTube clip. Wh Hater is crying. Not a star's name, is it? As good as it gets. I guess somewhere someone's got numbers that suggest that this is the best way to do things for any given, whether it's Netflix you know for FX Hulu' purposes Under the Disney umbrella U they've always released the bear as a binge, I believe. They have Um and initially We took that, sorry to cut you off. We took that as a reflection of their We don't know what we have attitude towards for first season For the first season. Yes. I think it was kind of like, wouldould you guys like to check this out? Well'll go for it I think that the show has evolved over the years over the seasons and this is the fifth and final season. into one that writes and shoots to be watched in in it One huge binge. onene long sitting So I would highly recommend people When I've seen seven of the eight. You've watched three of the seven that were made available, seven episodes were made available for critics ahead of time. We have not seen the finale U I would't I would encourage people if they like the bear to watch as much of the bear as they can in succession, because I think that's the desired effect comes from that experience Um As far as the agency goes U becausecause of the complexity of the plot. The sheer number of characters I know that that show came out last year, right twenty four, twenty four. Again, kind of a house of the Dragon thing where you're like, a, R, and this guy I would know from where, you know, because like you just have to you have to like Re assemble all the All the pieces on the chessboard when you're watching the agency. and I remember now Bureau the bureau the show that the agency is based on, I did watch that in a binge. We did prettyre much watch five seasons of TV over the course of like two or three weeks. with the pandemic. Sure. You could keep all the characters in place, you could remember all the storylines. There were certain things that would emerge that you were like, I can't believe this. that might have a different feeling if you waited a year or so to watch it So There are different differentere angles to this whole thing, but I guess I would start by saying Let's take the agency because I think we should talk about the agency first. Yeah. But broadly, like, do you think that this model works for a show like that I want to quickly, just when you're talking about how we watched it. Like one of the great pleasures of the contemporary era of television is the opportunity to rediscover into unearth And eventually, I think a lot of people do this. I don't, but like the rewatch And so have too much new stuff to watch. Right. But like Liburo was So delicious because it was all there for us. We were late to discovering it. I believe all five seasons were completed by the time we started. And, you know, when you have a show, in your life, with your partner, with your partner sitting cross for me. It can be so fun to just soak in it for weeks and But that said You also alluded to this It does change the relationship with the show and there are incredible things about L Bureau, the way it would Um subtly reset every year be wideen the aperture to be about also a different part of the world or a different hotspot or to see the larger game board I feel like Appreciating that would have been different in the moment, notot necessarily better, not necessarily worse, but the show contained enough richness to allow for both experiences. What I don't And and also I don't begrudge people who are like, I've never seen Mad Men. Oh, here it is. let me dive in. L That's great What I don't understand, and I hope someone might, what's our email address watch it's spotifiedy. com. Someone, please let us know about this because season one of the So did get some cool emails about why CEO's do get paid what they get paid how they work hard and deserve it. kind of That sort of been Um And by SOR DID I do want to talk about why I think the binge model is horrific.. But specifically with the agency, what I don't understand is It is in many ways a feathered fish of development in terms of L Bureau was a massive, massive hit within France and respected internationally The rights to it were fandied about and claimed with a great fanfare by showowime Right A few years ago. And the idea was that George Clooney and his producing partner, Grant Heslove for Smoke House were going to develop this and maybe Clooney was going to direct it. eter eter This was going to be Showtime's like really, really big like, we're still in the game kind of thing U during the development process of the show uh, Clooney clearly fell off of it as did the existence of the showowtime network. So it had folded into being like a premier offering of the new Paramount plus streaming service. Um, The Butterworth rose Jazz and John Henry Butterworth,ite the show as is an accomishedwrright and very prolific screenwiter They they write every episode and run it. I think Joe Wright directed some of the first season. Yes. And Neil Berger, who is a like longime Hollywood director directed his first episode. and I will say without even getting into it. This first episode looks like it cost two hundred billion dollars. To be clear, Clooney and Hzlove remain producers, Hzove directed on the first season. It's not like I say went. But the first season was released a little bit like you look at a script, and it's like well, now I need EP credit because I looked at it What town do you live in? guys Windborst Finger is the opening credit of almost any show we cover, and you can figure out some pretty interesting, let's call them passive income opportunities The cast is so starry Michael Fastbeender, Jeffrey Wright, Jodody Turner Smith, Katherine Waterston, Richard Fucken Gar The first season, which was Really excellent was a traditional release model. They released it in December of twenty twenty four and it ran until the end of january twenty twenty five. It seemed to do well enough. Yes. They had Greenleit a second season. it is So profoundly not a cheap show to me So I have to say I was shocked to discover not only was the show back with a apparent, you know, not a robust marketing and promotional effort It was back on Sunday, All ten episodes I still think talk me out of it or maybe just take the opposing viewpoint here. I take that as a insult. to the people who made it, and I take it as a sign of a lack of confidence in the show from the paramount people. That is my takeaway do not have any facts to support that. That is how I perceive it. So am I old fashioned in taking something that way? I can see both sides in it. Okay. so I can see he's running. firstirst season comes out Michael Faspender, huge movie star or big movie star The star started to cast. ye Um, you develop word of mouth by releasing week to week. Maybe Once the second season is done, They're like our fans are our fans And we want to service them and meet them where they are and give them ten hours of stuff to watch as soon as It's not a big ten strategy It's not a big ten strategy, but like how many times have we gone through these TV shows and we were like, is Widow's Bay like and the pit are the two shows of the last threeree or four years that I can think of specifically that have had week to week acceleration. Well I think you're right to bring that often than not, it's people being like, manan I feel like I'm so behind on this, you know? I think you're right about that. I saw and I'm sorry I can't credit this appropriately, but I did see an article basically saying it's It's not accidental or it's not it's not coincidental, I should say that The largest like week to week growing shows, if you just look at the growth, not necessarily the overall audience, over the last year or two years have been on Apple And the argument and it included Cape Fear in that, which is also apparently growing week to week, even though it's, you know prred at a different point. Sure, clearly had different expectations than than Widows Bay did. But the argument was essentially that because Apple is a boutique service, it has very relatively humble, let's say, subscriber base Unlimited coffers, they can afford the strategy of letting people find their shows and letting word of mouth build Paramount, I don' have the numbers, but paramount is in a lower tier than the dominant streaming services. It could just be that they don't have that patience or they don't have the business strategy to let things develop that way I'm open to that possibility as we were as I was complaining about the other day, all of this is so frustratingly opaque. find I find it incredibly annoying as a fan of building week to week as a fan of how I enjoy watching this stuff, especially a show as dense as the agency Um, I wish it was otherwise. and also I just find indicative of larger cultural shifts that I'm powerless to stop, but I hate, which is just the over stuffing and over indulgence of everything. Yeah, I think that the The only counter I have to that is that I can see binging in the same way that people are like, I get my news from newsletters and I don't go to websites anymore. So basically this idea that you find your fan base and you service them to the max rather than We want you to subscribe to our network, our premium cable channel, our streamer. And we want to develop a relationship with you where we parcel out things over the course of a year. and you have to wait 'till Sunday to watch this. And that works for us. And I think it works for TV shows in terms of, especially new shows to build them up over the course of a season but for the pure corporation customer relationship, They may just be like, this is what people want. Well, it's algorithmically stuffing them with what they think they what they feel confident that they know they want. you know I want to talk specifically about the show, of course. But one thing that I've been noticing recently with just how my kids and their friends engage with things, when we suddenly had unlimited options, like when suddenly there was Spotify or even you, before that wink, wink, napster, right? Like it was mind blowing for us as people who used to have to search out things and we had a lot of appetite what was next, what was behind the next door, who influenced this? How can I find out more? Because knowledge was at a premium and access certainly was at a premium this generation att least in my experience with my kids and again, like their peers at the moment the ceiling of that being currently thirteen, maybe that changes Um There is no searching. There is no everything is fed. That's the difference between I'm going to go get that like at a store and bring it to me a box. I mean, you know what I mean? If my daughter opens YouTube and YouTube already knows everything she probably wants to see, then her worldview is limited by that. Yeah. Maybe it's too grandiose to say it, but I do feel like the binge model is deeply connected to that or has become entwined with that in terms of expectation. likeike, oh, well, you know I opened up the service and it knows I watched the first season and here's the new season. so I will just stay in my wally pod forever. Yeah. I mean, we can talk more specifically about the show. Let's talk about the agent. The bear itself is, I think, made this season specifically, I think is made as a for our episode of television. I think there are some episodic breaks, there are commercial breaks that are in the actual episodes. But I think that if you think about the seven episodes that I've seen, it feels like a complete statement. The agency is as traditional as Prestige DV gets in its construction. These are forty seven minute episodes. We'll talk about the first one here I had a revelation while watching this. Whoa I admired and liked watching the first season. Okay There is something and I cannot quite put the metaphor together, but it's almost like watching like a thing that I love in another room or something. L there there is an element of for as excited as I was to see the bureau remade or interested in it, I was like, but it just feels like I've seen that scene in a different language with different characters. This is a really strange experience This episode, and we can get into a little bit of the discussion about what it is. initially starts and it's tracking along relatively close to the way season two of the bureau starts. Y. Correct me if I amm wrong, but midway through this first episode, we are introduced to a new character in the universe of this show. right And Listener. the heart rate went So basically like were're we're picking up right two months after the first season left off story time wise. So I mean is kidnapped and is being held hostage in Africa. Martian is a desk now working a desk job at the CIA's London office is it is fully a double agent is now working for the British, which kind of inverts what the Malitu character in the Bureau is working for the Americans. The French agent working for the Americans And for similar reasons to save his love And where the second season or the, you know, where the bureau was a little bit more concerned with Syria and going on in the Middle East and Jihadis This is now getting more and more into Russian paramilitary groups and the Ukraine warar Um, And we are introduced to the character midway through the first episode who's known only as Viking, who is a former U.S. Marine, although one who's got a bit of a fabul to, fabulous side to him, a former U.S. Marine who is now working as a henchman for this Russian Paramilitary is basically Wagner group but they're calling it Vahalla in the show And I was like Oh, this is what I wanted I wanted a curveball Now, To be clear The Lib Bureau has a similar. it is a French national Yes. So the thematically The person who we're chasing is one of ours He' the same Yes I did find and maybe this is also what you're responding to I leaned in when it was a ex US Marine at the moment when the show, I think, is beginning to engage less with the like perfectly curated museum piece of Le Bureau and actually digging into what it would mean to be about the CIA right now. Yeah. And there's a to me the most interesting and most declaative section of this episode, and clearly we're talking about only the first of season two is the conversation between Jeffrey Wright's character and Richard Geere's character, where they're like, man, we used to kick ass and people used to be afraid of us What the fuck happened? Yeah. I thought the the collision between that taken from the first taken from the French show, but added to the very nowness of it did elevate everything. Yeah. And I think rooting it in there's there's a bit of a strange experience watching the agency where The Central intntelligence aggency's office in London is populated by U United Kingdom actors playing Americas. Yeah withith the exception of, you know, there's there's several Americans in it, but Dominic Domin West Dominic West. and Michael Fastbender are and the guy who plays grandma, right? Yeah, and the kid downstairs in tech who is just like an absolutely Like that is one of the most English faces you could ever, ever capture. L That guy would break so quickly under CIA questioning if you put a Greg sauage roll in front of him. That's O mention having a few drinks at spoons. So there's like this odd feeling But I I did like the idea that this Viking character has emerged out of like Fringe Like four chan Manosphere And then through the lens or through the prism of like Aryan Brotherhood, white power, white nationalism in America to somehow find himself in Africa working as a Merc for a Russian paramilitary group. It's just a really nice like curveball on making it more like what would these characters from these countries be feing? Yeah, I think it's a really, really complicated production in ways that I think are almost difficult to parse because it is British screenwriters adapting and a very, very French show, but more than that, a very, very like twenty fifteen show um for a contemporary American television audience about contemporary American geopolitics S someome of the adaptations work incredibly well. someome are more stilted, some are still finding their way I found myself in this episode more drawn to the most familiar plot from people who' watch the original series, which in this case is Danny in Tehan. U I think Sara Lightfoot Leon is awesome. againain exciting in the role and the peril of that feels a lot more pronounced because she's the agent in the field That was also beat for be what LBureau did m and with the setup of Wh's going to get turned, who's going to become a source, all of that in the way that the Martian character is going to play with it. Um, I still find let The show is almost like And this may be why I'm also worried about its future. It is so aggressively complicated and chilly I'm super into that. Yeah, but it is dense Um, and I still think that I think you're this is the same conversation we had two years ago. Yeah. I think we're both responding to fast bender fast And they made a choice to centralize to make him this the the the choose him as the actor. I think that he and this period of his acting has settled in on like, I have like a Michael Fasbender guy that I play who is like a cold Heartless Soci Wh likes racing cars? Who likes racing cars. And then on the side in Frank or in you know, in this or that, I might play somebody like kind of more funky and interesting. But it's funny that like we noticed him. I mean, like audiences suddenly were like, who the hell is that? in Iningglorious Bastards because he was everything you're saying. But I I remember the first time I really became engaged with him was Hunger, the Stehve McQueen movie about you know, Iiry hunger strikes and I was like, this guy's On another level, it feels like he's the next De Lewis. He has kind of settled into the killer Prometheus kind of Assassin's Creed guy And in this show so far, I think maybe lacks some of the soul of the character from the original and series. Now. That's okay If they led Big dogs in the pen off the leash. Thank you. And that's rightright Gear, Watson ando. Yeah. And if they let those people cook And there is like littleittle little spots of daylight that like you don't put you don't it's like you don't get Jeffrey right to haveaven for one inning in the seventh Gott to let this guy out. I love go. And I think that's coming. and I think you can see that emerging because he is charged with the mole hunt. Yes I'm very excited to keep watching this. I mean, some of the best moments, it's so odd, S someome of the best moments of the show are the little throwaways like Katherine Wattererson's birthday party. Yes. You know, the things that the Butterworths are inventing for these people are riveting and exciting. and I hope they do that. I think the best comp and this is s kind of surprising to say. would be mad men. becausecause Madmen built cast of real characters. Um broad, funny, surprising warm around John Ham's central performance, which was defined by, this is not a criticism of John Ham and one of the iconic television roles of all time, but that role was defined by its tightness and its insularity and its reticence and everything else warmed it up. or surprised it. I think that's the best case scenario for the show because Fastbender's Martian is essentially like a blunt object. and the one moment that I didn't like in a episode that I was otherwise like, o, the clues in the crossword puzzle. inject this into my veins was when he is so stressed out about the lack of rescue for Samyia that he then Um, F oneess his forward focused off a garage T the top of a garage and then screams in frustration. And I was like, this seems like an actor note. Yeah than it does a character note. I just have to stress again That this show looks like it costs one hundred million dollars to make on one episode. It looks so good. They stage a giant shootout in Kartoon. I don't know where they actually shot it, but more than that doubles for Kartoon these days. It I think is shot kind of mayaybe anamorphic where I mean, like I thought that the birthday scene also was so full of life and So well done And also it was just so great to have Martian trying to pretend to be a human being while also watching all these people flirt and have champagne and like turn forty and all this stuff. and he's like you know, dying on the inside because he's a double agent who's desperately trying to save the love of his life's life More of that, man Keep putting Fast Bnder amongst real people and keep putting him up against brilliant British character actors who like undo him a little bit. We should have this show We, as viewers of television, as two white men in our forties Thank you deserve. Could something finally be for us Hello U No, but generally, like there is so much fucking money in the international streaming television space. and this Midle Bureau still exs I mean, that's the challenge, right? It's still competing with the original in terms of what you could watch on any given Tuesday. But a high minded, high quality, high cost elegant international spy thriller should just be on the checklist of what is on these services. They're hard to do. There's too much talent here for it to go too sideways. and I hope that the rest of the season, which some people listening may have already watched fulfills more of its promise both in terms of an inheritor of the original, but also as its own thing. and then like Keep going. Yeah There's this experience that I have not been able to articulate and I think that It's kind of fun. we've been talking about television together for twelve years or whatever it is. thirteen years. fourteen.teen years. I' that's your one year I didn't really watch TV and talk about it much with. And then I don't really count the Andy Greenwalold podcast That's fair. and Would you like a list of the guests who did count it? We'll run it on the side of the screen, Ki. I we've spent so much time trying to be like, this is why this show is good and this is why this show is bad. And sometimes you just turn on a TV show and you're just like, I'm not changing the channel, brother Jo, that's generally you with Paramount Pus. No That is yourult home. There's plenty of shows I am not watching Dutten Range. I am not watching plenty of things on Paramount Plus. you're I stopped watching Mob land. I was just like I feel like I got it. Yeah. You feel like you got the land? You have to land of land? But there is something about like I just think the agency is just really, really, really well made and I would probably be head over heels for it if it was the first time I was seeing this story. Do you hear that? 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Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state Hey,'s Ry Reynold here from Mit Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for fifteen dollars a month is bad. So I thought It be fun if we made fifteen dollars bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at midmobile dot com slash switch Upront payment forty five dollars for three months ninety dollars for six mons one hundredy dollars forel month, reired fifteen dollars for month equalent to taxes extra. initial term only greater thanty gigabytes from slow netork busy term Let's talk about the bear. We'll go into depth on it on Monday when maybe you have a chance to I mean, hopefully like finish it, you know, because o, I mean is that took No, let me just get my eye cal for a second. moveve some things around. Look, there's a lot of TV right now. There's House of the Dragon, there's the bear, there's the agency. There's's there's so much to love And is there So I have watched the seven episodes. I'm not going to spoil anything. There a lot of what you would hear from me that would be a spoiler is now widely available in the reviews that have been published today on the trades By the time this goes up, I think the season will have gone up, but I don't have anything to say about the finale because I haven't seen it. I guess I should let you go first. The reviews have come out and the reviews seem to have devoured them as the FX press room would like us to devour them. So the reviewers are like, boy the seventh episode iss really great. and boy the other episodes really build up to it I really think it's important to have a conversation about Sincerely, Charles Barkley voice about what's happened to the show over the last three years. and was a massive bummer to watch the first three episodes of the season. I think that there are Really strong arguments to be made about the joys of insulated, siloed collaborative community based filmmaking L when you work with your pals and you work on something that you're passionate about great things can come from that. and the first few seasons are a testament to that, certainly. There are still moments when watching The Bear where you see flickers of that affection that the cast and crew have for each other, the de almost wordless understanding that the performers have or that Chrisorer the creator and director has with people that he's known in his real life and he's now put on the camera That's all wonderful The flip side of that is when you completely make something for yourselves and with yourselves and don't talk to anyone about it. uh, it can choke the life out of something and feel like the most insular drain circling exercise imaginable And I found these three episodes to be a continuation, to be fair of what's happened the last few years, which has been an almost outright disdain of traditional st television storytelling. Now, I don't want to be here and be the William F. Buckley of streaming television standing athwart you know, the fucking Disney plus logos the yelling stop. There is a reason why teelevision, whether you delivever it as a binge or not is often storywise a certain way. Yeah. why storylines are spaced out over time why conversations are had in vibrant writers rooms about where do we go next? So this does not feel like more and more and more and more and more of the same thing So the fact of the first three episodes of the season aren't just the same characters feeling glum about the potential professional opportunities ahead of them in the same spaces only now U it's all over the course of one service. only now, it's all over the course of one dark rainstorm in the super, super claustrophobic. Um, Michael Man Fver Dream stage set of the restaurant I found it I was just sort of choking watching it. Like I did not get pleasure out of it of seeing these people say the same things to each other in sort of stagey, non story advancing ways Um, I was really frustrated Really, really frustrated and not to make this to inside baseball, but like And I would say this to, I think Chris is a great guy and we love talking to him and hopefully, we'll continue to talk to him in the future. This is in no way personal. but I do find it odd that the show two years ago stopped having any conversation at all with the outside world They don't do any press, they don't talk about it. They didn't even set up what this season was It's just like, here's another bunch of hours and it feels so disconnected from the relationship that I had as a fan, not as a podcaster. So you know, I think that's a worthwhile conversation to have And maybe that's where we can leave this discussion. I was much more positive on what I've watched, but I was feeling nervous at the thir three episode mark. I don't know if your attitude is going to be changed about it, but I think that this epise season of television would be greatly would greatly benefit from Not even like a cover story on Jeremy Allen White where he walks us through everything or a promo binge where they're playing with puppies talking about their five favorite meals they've ever had. Like there's lots of reasons why that stuff is actually pretty tired. agree. I do think that It would have helped this season or helped you watch this season if they had come out and said, this is about Day in the restaurant. If they had come out and said, let me explain how our menu works. No, but like being serious. I am like if it was like, hey, so this is about ree free service portion of a day, a chaotic night at the restaurant and the culmination of everything that we've been talking about on this show and that we are shooting it essentially as a relay race like that goes like increasingly up in terms of intensity to a kind of mirror of the early seasons of the, you know, the chaos of of the handheld sort of like Carmi doing crazy things and yelling at people. And then pivoting it to being like, well, what would happen if Sydney was running this restaurant and what happens on the night where they're actually working collaboratively I think that would be G good thing things people to know going into it. Yeah. Maybe nobody cares and it maybe it's like the bear' back and I'm going to watch it And it's like watching the bear three years ago. Yeah. And this is the vibe that I know that I'm going to get from this restaurant, even though now we're using scraps of offcuts, like to there's a moment when people start yelling again as they always do and it plays off of Siddney's face. This is I believe in episode three of the new season and Her face is then intercut with images of all of these people shouting at each other in previous seasons. Yes and And I'm like, we're really just recycling that as opposed to generating new content. Like I think there's an argument to be made that when Carmi was locked in the walk in freezer two, three seasons ago. that he never came out These are all dream sequences because every single person has been stuck and frozen. Since then. Yeah Now Again, I would love to maybe we'll have the opportunity to have the conversation. like, is this because This was always one story. and then FX and the cast and crew, everyone's having such a good time. They're like, let's make three more seasons out of this one story. That's the evidence in front of us that they're having the same circular conversations that every character is basically locked in place and that the only variations so far in this new season is u expansion IP expansion of friendriend of the Ringer Brian Kopelman's character in the form of his daughter Like that's the big addition so far I don't think that's his daughter. I think that's like somebody who owes him a favor. Oh, another quant. She comes and plays by Elsie Fisher. I'm like this part of the show is not as compelling to me as I think the people making the show think it is. Similarly Matdie Matheson being intellectually and emotionally a child and beloved by everyone. diminishing returns to me, even though again, I think the people making the show find this incredibly delightful So anything to push the ball forward Instead, we get Con Zimmer score on top of it, which is like honestly felt like shaving incredibly expensive alba truffles over her Mac and. lik I liked the addition of an original score instead of constant needle drops. And I love the music of the bear and have I have the playlist that is all the songs from the bear, but I thought that Do an original score for the season and nailing down the camera and making everything like The sensation that you're supposed to get is that Sydney is giving people a sense of calm right. And so the camera needs to calm down as well. And so that there are push ins and there are like quick cuts, but essentially like, From what I could tell, like there is very, very little of the usual like bear kind of chaotic. handheld in somebody's face, giving you a panic attack camera work. It's all like on an axis, you know? Just like I don't think and I don't think the show agrees with me. and I think there's room to go here, but just like I don't think that a tweezered aniseptic restaurant that serves a set tasting menu is necessarily better than a sandwich shop. I don't necessarily think three extra seasons of Lionel Boys proving he can be a morose dramatic actor is better than the kind of sweet slightly more humorous character that he played in the first two seasons. Now he's staring at a candle again you know, and only and locked in a room with Will Poulter. Now, obviously that might change. But I don't know if that's that's that's a different tone, but now it's been the same tone and I don't know if it's necessarily better. Similarly, I think Chris is a phenomenal director and an incredible accrreer of talent and under he understands the actors that he knows and loves so well and has brought out shades of people that we had never seen before. Even in the show, like what Oliver Platt's doing, what Eban Moss Bachrack is doing It's it's that's still what Abby Elliott does. you know, these are things that I didn't know these actors who I was familiar with could do and I love seeing them do it I also know he is absolutely sincere in his filmicck knowledge and his love of Michael Mann and everything. This vessel that he has been given by The gods of Disney N FX. isn't a Michael Man movie, no matter how much music and neon light you put on it You know, I so my frustration is because I think more than anything organic joy of this show for absolutely three full seasons, even if the third season was a little bit shakier was such a special, special thing. Now, special things don't go on forever in the television or the restaurant industry these last two seasons of just so aggressively being something else I'm finding Well I'm frustrated. I'm going to watch more, O of course. Yeah. And this is where binge drops can burn you because by the time some people are listening to me say this, they're going to be like, how could you say that if you haven't seen seven? Exactly Yeah. But I'm trying to engage with it as a honest steward of my relationship to what has come before. There's a strange thing that's going on with this show obbviously we've talked a lot about the method of its release I think its deepest pleasure is still pleasure of any TV show, which is the durational aspect of it and the relationship you build to the characters And for as Circuitous as this road has been to get there. I found myself invested in Marcus in Richie in everybody's wellbe. And I don't know how else to put it that way. You know what I mean? Like I usually don't have Um likeike this person needs to be okay feeling when I'm watching a TV show and caring about characters in that way. But it does hit you that we've been talking about this show for a long time. We've watched a lot of hours of this show. I think that we have complicated relationships with the show because on one hand it's like the best TV can do. and on the other hand, it feels like it didn't quite live up to the potential of the first two seasons But I think that this fifth season proves it's proves it's a necessity for existing. I love that. I can't wait to see it. I just I think I just cannot believe that the Carmi character has just been bubble wrapped essentially since season three locked in the same exact emotional stasis that he's been in. And then when you have him finally say what he needs to say at the end of season four The creative decision then is to pick up the next day Yeah where he's still bubble wrapped, hasn't told anyone yet. He doesn't tell anyone else until an hour in And then Lets let's get people going to where they need to go. And maybe that begins in episode four and I'll find out This weekend, apparently, because I'll be watching the rest of ser. I mean, you just let me know where we're going be on Monday morning, you know? I knowew where we're going to be here unless another factory catches fire. It was lovely to talk to you. I can't wait to I amm very engaged in continuing this conversation. Um, Do you feel like when when we disagree that somebody has to win U do you feel like you need me to come over to your side of the force No, no. do you think? No I mean, you know I don't. But you're so articulate about your really critical opinion. But that's also helps because I know you're wrong. And so I have empathy You know, because sweet simple Chris. Yeah.'s just watching Rogan and Sherid He' just like just dreaming of deaf horses, you know? We're gonna to get out of here. Thanks to Ki and Sera for producing today. We'll be back on Monday. We'll probably be talking some combination of Houses the Dragon or the bear or whatever, the agency, like whatever