The Babadook Tweet Origin

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Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. fors have clear Wel to the watch, my name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer dot com and joining me in the studio, he was bitten by an animal and then he became the animal. It deree W! That's the best line in the finale of the best show of the year. Widow's Bay whichich we are going to be talking about the finale today on the watch podcast. We are also joined by Hera Marai and Katie Dippold, the director and creator of Widows Bay, which as Andy mentioned, is his favorite show of the year I'm open for business. Wow. Yeah. You are like those judges who will say that Joe Biden was certified the winner of the presidential election. I believe you won the election. Cool under pressure. We are going to talk about that. We're going to talk a little bit about the Spiderm Man trailer. I have a couple of questions for the keeper of the war across from now. I have some questions. Maybe a couple of other things Just some programming reminders. Sunday night is Howouse' of the Dragon seeason three premiere. I'll be doing Talk of the Thrones with Mal and Joe, but Andy and I will be discussing it on Monday from our usual just sort of left field askew viewpoint. We'll keep hitting Star City as we're able. and then next week Next Thursday, the bear season Fiveive drops. And Andy and I are going to be discussing it in our usual three, three two way. I think we'll do three episodes of it, you know, so we can kind of like live in it a little bit, even though I know everybody who's rocking with the barrel will probably watch it that weekend. Before we get into it, can we address the elephant in the room for people who watch us on video, whichich is that we are doing the Michael Keaton Batman Vicky Vale table scene. is kind of yeah, it's like Ned Baty and Network. Yeah I kind of because we had a table. We have a larger table here today because we had two guests, Hio and Katie were so lovely to come by and talk to us. about the finale. Do you want to do let's just do a little bit of like the kind of Entertertainment house cleaning. I actually do want to talk about the Spider Man brand new day two. trarailer, which dropped about twenty five hours ago How have you spent the last twenty five hours? Well here's what I've been really interesting. Our buddy, Zach Baron wrote a fantastic piece about the making of the Odyssey. Um, and he interviewed Homer He interviewed Homer. he interviewed Norm Mayer, I believe. He talks to David Letterman about it. No. I mean, he talked to Matt Damon. Taled to Robert Pattson, talk to Tom Holland And Tom Holland was the one who jumped out at me in this piece because This was clearly like a life changing experience for him to work on the Odyssey. and so much so that She says it had a profound impact on the making of Brandew Day, which was Not only like did the production of it have to be adjusted so that Holland could essentially star in the Odyssey, I think, or co star in the Odyssey B learening how Christopher Nolan makes movies and learning how his storytelling works and learning about A lot of his in camera stuff that he does to like make everything feel real. Um Led Holland to W with Destin Daniel Creton, who's directing this new Spider Man movie to change the film. So knowing that Yes, I was curious whether you watched the trailer and felt anything different about the movie felt anything different coming off the screen that looked like Christopher Nolan had an impact on this, but like that this was somehow tended to and cared for in a way that maybe I think works aret. I think one of the main things that's going to be different no matter what. and y I think it does look and feel slightly different, certainly from the previous Spider Man trilogy, but one of the things that is absolutely fact is that in order to get Tom Holland to come back to do a fourth movie U, Sony and Marvel gave Tom Holland an enormous amount of creative control over the film He was only coming back for a movie that he wanted to make in the tone and style that he thought would be interesting for Peter Parker and Spider Man to be in. That seems pretty clear in the final product. So I think that even predates going to IMX camp with Chris and Hoyt. you know, I think that he definitely only wanted to come back. It was going to be different. I think there's been already been pre pre released press saying that he wanted to be more grounded or whatever as a Longtime Spider fan. I mean, you're there you're the number one Spider Man fan in my life That is ra fantasy, I think both. Oh. okay so now we'reddenly welcomeing like, I have other interests. It's like when we ask you who your best friend is. It's the same answer. Its you. John, you know Um Sean is more of a symbiot guy. Seaan likesenom and carnage and all that stuff. know, I'm kind of a purist Um I I've said on this podcast, like I like the character best when the character is street level and grounded and not wearing an Ironman suit and flying into space.ure. It is a real tribute to Steve Ditcoo and Stan Lee that that character can do those things, but I think the character works best when the stakes are smaller and more related. You need him to be a teenager Well no, now he's you he's a young man. I know. Tom Hollin's thirty. And he said, I don't want to be playing Spidererman when I'm thirty, but I think that's another reason why I think he was like, give me the keys and I'll drive the car one more time around the block. Yeah, until the. Secret Wst comes out, right? O att least one more time probably So I think all that is good. and I was very happy to see that at least in this trailer He has the most important things to me in apider Man story, which is personal life anguish and a suit that is not made out of Aamantium with a talking system embedded in it That's cool. And also there's a very like long tradition of Spider Man being the the gateway character who like swings down to the West Village to chat with Dr. Strange, which was the last movie and now up to Columbia and Dr. Banner, can you help me with something and the punishherers in this movie? So all that super cool. That said, I'm going to turn it back to you and say, Chris Spider Man brand new dayay trailer. What is this movie about Challenge This is now the third I think glimpse of it that we've gotten and I have no idea what a plot of this Not unlike House of the Dragon I feel like I need to refresh my memory about what is going on in this world. So like as far as I can remember Both in Doctor Strange, in the Mountain of Madness. No, but go on. mouth Madness, multiverse. Multiverse of madness There's like Spider Man gets strange to wipe everybody's memory in the world because he doesn't want to be sp no This was no way home. This was No way home. Yeah. And then what happens at the end of Doror Strange? I believe. Oh the ramifications of that start to go wrong, right? No, it's The Dark Strange movie is not relevant. The Dark Strange No Wayome is essentially a Door Strange movie But Dr. Strange did that R Justrain did that. This is like when they're like, whoo fixed the potholes in New York? Sherlock Holmes made Zenda forget that man. That should have married him. That's true. Yeah. I don't really remember what's like at stake or what's happening here. He felt that the knowledge because Aunt Maay spoiler died, knowing his secret identity was too dangerous. so his best friends, Ned and MJ had their minds wiped and they went off to MIT while he remained alone in New York protect the streets. I think that they're probably still hiding a bunch of the stuff that is that is going to happen to him in this movie for a variety of reasons. Obviously, you and I' had some fun trying to guess who Sadie Sink is playing. I don't think we tried to guess. I think we name names. Yes. we did say that it' sorry, Van not I'm not afraid,ing Gay. Yeah yeah, which would be exciting It seems like this movie is going to be about punishisher So this is the this is what I was waiting for. You're acting like, I'm not sure if I'm interested. I didn't say that. It's all burn fall. Yeah This is this is Peter Parker, Wayne Jenkins , But but are they sports washing this dude Didn't he just kill like eighty seven people in his special? like And now he's just like, I'm here for PG thirteen banter with my guysy Spitey Let me introduce you to something called comic books. The punisher that hangs out with Spider Man is not the same punisher that Garth Thennis wrote. Yeah where yeah, where he like personally executes people Spid Man Punisher voted for Mum Donny Wow Punisher is a Sleewa guy. born and bred? Like the way we get these rats out of the city, feral cats. The only no the only thing Punisher doesn't like about Curtis Lee was is he's soft on cats. Yeah. Like he does not give a shit. You know what? I think that Peter Parker used rank choice correctly. You know, I think he probably, I think Brad Lander may have been his number one.. But he put Mamani too once they endorsed each other. and he's happy with how it Four years ago I think you voted for Katherine Garcia, who was the sanitation. No, I remember her That's Let's go four years before that. How much time do we have before our Widows Pay interview? Yeah, I mean I like the fact, I've said this, I think before, that I like when the movies echo that aspect of comic books that there are PG thirteen versions of the characters who do team ups and then sometimes when they're in their own respective genre stories that can get a little bit earlier. I like that. My thing is This movie has been presented to us as primarily okay, I don't even know primarily. So there's the storyline where he is mutating into some sort of human spider hybrid. Right becausecause he doesn't need like the He's shooting it out of his wrist like Tobbey McGuire again there is the version of the movie where he is fighting the hand the u global Ninja crime organization that Frank Miller created in the pages of Daredevil forty years ago. Okay. I do not know why he is doing that. otherther than I guess if a global Ninja criminal enterprise attacked your city, you would fight them. But sometimes they have like it was like, here's going to be this big villain but it's like wrapped up in the first fifteen minutes There's I guess what I'm saying is I cannot Maybe this is going to be genius. Maybe this is going to be like Frozen two and there is no antagonist than what's inside of us. But it is odd that a tent poole movie is not telling you what the story is other than boy Peters's really going through it. That said All the tracking suggests that this is going to be the biggest movie. of the last three years. Right. So maybe it doesn't really matter. But it is interesting that it's going to be a punisher team upp movie, a Hulk team up movie, a boy is shooting fluid out of himself in surprising W's movie and also with a Ninja Global Kabal, and introducing mutants into the Marvel universe. That's a lot. spepeaking of shoot things out of his body. C can't wait. Did you know that Justin Kuritsk' has A screenwriting credit on this and apparently did a full rewrite? Yes. Challengers Call me by your name. I believe so. Yeah Uh Yeah So the original the not the original, but I Chris Men Challengers in queer by that. Chris Mcenna and Eric Summer, I think who had who had the credit on the first three Tom Holland movies and were praised for the comedic stuff. likeike they they brought in a I guess a at least on the page, a more serious more dramatic screenwriter How do you feel about that? I think it's exciting. I think it's cool. I think his' like He obviously knows his way around like some of the psychosexual kind of I'm changing kind of stuff, you know, I think that This is interesting that, you know, he wrote challenges and Dz and obviously in this film, I wonder if there was any like Hey, this guy's really good, we should work with him. It's psychosexual transformations. Yeah. Chris, what do you want a Spider Man movie? You're playing You're doing the classic He's not my guy. I'm cheering for everybody. It's like watching two countries I don't care about in the World Cup. I'm just like, I'd like to see some goals, you know? Like Is it like you don't care about them like Uzbekistan is playing or are you like, okay Paray, that's cute. U It's more like Cpe Verdity. that's cute. Full story. Beuse I just feel like you're doing your typical like, you know, DNC sponsored like you're going to Iowa kind of thing where you're like, how great that we have spiders and men. And then you're also you're like Do we have room for punisher in this? Do we have room for psychosexual transformations? Pick your free. I'm a cy one. I care about a craft, you know? And if I want to see, you know what lessons he learned by making The Odyssey reflected in this movie. I want to also see I see if these superhero movies can change with the changing nature of Hollywood and the changing expectations of audiences. Look how reasonable he is. It you just w my boat back. I don't think in no way, Spy Mem Brand New day is going to make a gazillion dollars. Like I'm not concernedrolling it at all. What I am interested in is I think that there is a whiff of like Hollywood realizing that like you can put the crap here R. But like if you're going to go for like the big audiences and you're going you want to make something a sensation is something that people have a relationship to. like we have to get back to ening people's relationships with this instead of just having it be. Did you see in the post credit stinger Ch the Ron's character showed up, like You have to have it mean something more and you have to have it have a little bit more depth. So I'm actually going into this movie with like a little bit of a magnifying glass. I'm really glad I needled you unkindly because that was a very, very smart summation of where this is. and I think it's a very optimistic. I honestly do think like for all the shit we've talked about Avengers, like they actually have like To say nothing of the fact that those are probably going to be the most expensive movies ever made once they finally finish shooting them or writing them or whatever they're doing. If it's a lot of guys standing in front of green screen, not knowing what scene they're in or which movie they're in, I think it's you're going to be able to tell. And not just that, but on top of it saying The only emotion that we were able to like wring out of this old piece of laundry is from a previous movie or from a previous generation's relationship to a a no longer to a mooded franchise Yes, you know, I think that no way home I mean, as you said, Doomsday and Sect Wars will be the test of this, but no way home was I loved it. I thought it was a phenomenal movie emotionally and in terms of spectacle, but it wrg the emotion primarily out of giving Andrew Garfield a send offff for the trilogy he wasn't permitted to finish by Hollywood. That's diminishing returns. So maybe I need to put on my CR glasses as opposed to these glasses, AG glasses and say the fact that there is not a clear antagonist with larger ties to Skovia is potentially a good thing. Yeah Yes, absolutely. I mean we got there. Yeah. Ken Burns is Skovia coming in twenty twenty eight. Oh my God Why has one done that? Wait, why has no one done Ken Burns's Marvel Civil W? Wh Why are we only thinking about this in minute Could we do the shoken farewell letter, but for a guy who got like Skovia dropped on him The entire deearest Abigail. No, then they cut they're like And then there was Quick Silver. And then it cuts to like Elizabeth Olson, like wiping away a tear and sepia tone. Where's she? Where's Wwanda Where's Wanda? She she's in jail now, right character. Yeah. No, I think I think the characters in jail I think Elizabeth Olenon pulled the Scarlet Johansson rip booard, which is just like 'all I'm done? Oh, she's not gonna be in these new ones? I mean, everybody has a price, man We'll put a pin in sppideran. I want to talk to you about the finale of Widows Bay before we bring here on Kadian. Okay. We wrap up with Greenwald's agenda, fully proven correct. Thank you. I doubted my own dagnostication. Raiders of the Widows Bay Reddit. Andy Greenwald is the Iiana Jones of that and he figured out that Evan was not in the clear He was still going to be part of the lineage of No, I never said that. You didn't? No. I said I said after First of all, thank you for my hero's journey I thought you texted me and were like, I was right I was right, but I stopped believing I was right, which is the sign of a good show. Like I had laid out the evidence coming from the flashback episode that the inevitable last descendant of this curse inheritor of the curse would be Evan. And then there was the misdirect toward Ruth. Thank you. Yeah. of not saying that this is spoilers for Widows Bay and the finale, I guess we could. But thank you for beginning where all these things should begin, which is me proving myself, right? I wanted to ask you a couple of questions about this. First of all, did you ever expect when you were watching essay, episode four or episode five of the show, that you would find yourself in such an excruciating dramatically tense moment Tom trying to decide whether or not to kill Ruth, his kindly, if absent minded assistant who apparently has an incredibly rich life outside of the office. Yes. because he thinks that she is the last line of the descendant of the Oneeil Erow, your pilgrim Eow We have to, I mean I think one thing and people hopefully will stick around and listen to our interview with Hio and Katie It is kind of sometimes a check on us because I was prepared to come in here today and talk about And I will talk about the brilliance of the show, but I also love to celebrate the moments of what feel like very, very clever, very, very thoughtful foresight. that you build a character like Ruth into the margins of the show as comedic relief, as texture, as someone you're happy to see, as a joke you're happy to return to. But in no way are you expecting that the actor who plays her will carry one half of one of the most dramatic sequences on television this year Talking to her and Katie one gets the sense that they are of the Vince Gilligan schoolool, Katie especially of like, oops, we've painted ourselves into a hell of a corner here. How are we going to pull it off probablyro a Ted talk to be given about how genius can come from crises like that to answer your question more directly No and the fact that the show can at once bear the weight of such intense moral such an intense moral dilemma and decision making and have you feel it and have it also have these other strands that are so central to the show. like how we misplaceun how we confuse work for family and how we take advantage of both in all the wrong ways. And then sometimes we all end up being family. And then there's life lessons from a haunted island about how life's always kind of hard and you just gotta do your best and help a woman downfont off of the porch and then back up again every day This is maybe good for a whaling town, but I just think the best TV shows are load bearing vessels and the fact that this series expanded its potential for this episode Bloomy way So that's a really good segue into the other element of this episode that I thought was fascinating, which is obviously it was Jeff Hiller's character Dale coming across. This film strip, which suggests a U Underground Society slash cult slash, we will find out in season two, the show has been renewed to nobody's surprise of ritual sacrifice, of an almost like practical kind of relationship with the demonic forces of the island and that There's this relationship between the church bells and how many people need to be sacrificed for whatever is living in the subub basement of the town hall justust off of the electror chair. Yes And First of all, like this is, you know, if you've been watching television for a long time, this is like finding the hatch, this is like a move you can pull late in a season to be like there's another level to the game, you know I thought that that was really well handled I was curious whether or not The show's deviating somewhat or like the late period, the late season of the show deviated very fully from Monster of the Week. And in fact started to Do it dallions with we are the actual monsters because what if you put us all in a storm shelter? and you know what if you ask us if we're choosing to choose to solve the trolley question that Tom is talking about? Yeah That's a classic writer's room conversation that just went into the show. Yes. I thought that was brilliant U I'm I'm so excited for season two because of this They' There's this funny thing where like when this season was in midfight and it was like this week, it's a S Hag coming out of the fog nextxt week, it is A self help book that is actually a book of spells There was just like this like delight of like never knowing where it was going I don't really want to answer any questions about this show. That's how I feel. I think Even though there was more lore in this final episode than I would have expected, I remain delighted and honestly unmoved by a lot of it, not unmoved and like it's not working for me. that's just not how I'm watching the show.. And the more things they tell me, the more excited I am about it. I think again, there is just some However modest Katie is about the planning and execution of the show, there was a deep level of thinking that went into some decisions that could just really bedevil a long running series and they range from, you know Cell phones don't work Okay, we took care of that to what is the actual population here versus how many people are visiting and what is the relationship to the outside world? and how can we keep this going? And one of the smartest things was this idea that was suggested in the pilot and then brought back in the finale, which is that the island goes through these moods or these cycles and during these cycles crazy things happen. gives them such credibility because if these things were happening twenty for seven, No one would live there. Right. No one would visit. There wouldn't even be the chance to make the argument that people should live there. So it and it also though, buys them time. It buys them time to retrench, think about what's going to happen next. The characters react to it and then dive back in and have things start to wake up again and Potentially they wake up again with other delightful and funny horror movie tropes u haunting them for an episode or ye I think the other template that the season gave us that is so smart is that every one of those tropes and every one of those hauntings is going to be inexorably tied to a character's emotional life or their history And so we have a way to continue to be interested in it without it feeling like a stunt Yeah, there's also like so much room for expansion on this show. and I don't know whether or not The core audience is going to be happy to hear that, but like you could obviously have new boatloads of people arriving during calmer times. you could have Um, A real estate developer who comes and decides this is great oceanfront property. You could have somebody wants to build a golf course, what have you You know, that worked very well for Yellowstone. And The first part of what you' saying reminded me of like the second season of your friends and neighbors where James Marsden shows up and moves in This the thing is that I think I have sometimes a little bit of I was talking yesterday with a couple people about Breaking Bad and I was like there's there was really like at least three different shows. You know, it's like the at the same time or over the course over the course of this series where it starts out and it's this black comedy about a guy who's got the worst news of his life and decides to become a master criminal. thenen there is a fish out of water show of like this guy who's never been part of a criminal underworld slowly becoming more and more adept at it. And then there is the crime epic that is basically on like godfather level that concludes the show U I wouldll be curious to see whether Widows Bay three years we look back. I remember and we were like, remember first version of Widows Bay that was like Monster of the Wek. Yeah. And now it's, but now it's about this or that or the other thing. I think that promising I mean, there's a lot of things that are promising. One is, and you guys will hear this in the interview. Um I don't think I think Katie wants to keep making the show obviously, but I don't think she feels any great burden to like stretch this out You know, that she has a story to tell and have as much fun as possible doing it. but it won't necessarily move through erras. in that way. I think the other thing is that There's a lot of room for it to be about a community, not just one man. And even if it is evenven if the focus ultimately does land on Matthew Reese's character on Tom Loftus, it is about his relationship with his son H son who is now the inheritor of a great and ancient satanic evil living underneath the island. Did you get the impression that he knew that at the end of the episode in the final shot I don't get it's a good question. I didn't get the impression that he knew, but I did get the impression that he was now suddenly more than aware of. He was like when can we go to the Red Sox? There's something here that I have now witnessed that I am now connected to, even though I don't understand that it is a part of me. I'm so excited about this show. It is such a joy. It was such a gift. and it is such I It's such and we talk about this in our interview, but the specificity of it, you know, that to be able not just to have an exciting new show to look forward to when it returns in a year, a year and a half This show in this place with these actors and whatever is lurking around the corner, be it A monster of the Wek or a character actor that Alison Jones has dru out of the dug out of the most perfect obscurity and brought back in front of us. I was talking with Sean yesterday about the your Spider Man friend? No, about his edition of Projections just went up today and we were talking a little bit about where movies are at and what are some of the new you rules movie of movie making and movie going in the movie industry And I definitely think I have a little bit of I'm always thinking about the relationship between television and movies for Those things can be very fluid, but like right now, I obviously think that between obsession and Backroom, Spider Man, Odyssey, the way people are talking about the movies, the way people are going to films that there's a a centrality of of it in the culture, like that disclosure day. Yeah disisclosure Day, big hit, but also very divisive. you know, in a way that I've really enjoyed some of the conversations I've overheard about it Um And I think It's led me to wonder about like what TV can be and what TV should be in that in that world and that reality, I think You and I have lived through some really like plum days of like Even if only X amount of million people are watching succession, it feels like all of them want to talk about succession all the time And As TV has tried to become bigger and bigger and bigger and consume more and more and more of our time I wonder sometimes whether like we've lost certain just known knowns of like how to make it and what people like about it. Y. And hearing Katie and Hero talk about it where it was like It wasn't like what we were trying to do was make Hreditary meets this or, you know, like this very kind of like Almost antiseptic or scientific way of like Pitch It was like, no, descript was something that she had lived with for a really long time. She'd obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this world. And then she and Hiro were like, let's make a place that people want to come back to for two and a half months That's like That's all you got to do. Like and it's way easier said than done. But if you want to know like what TV should be or what TV can be, it's not necessarily like What do we not get out of presumed innoc the first time?'s like Let's make a fucking world that people want to hang out in for three months. Which is really hard. Yeah. But you have to give people creative space and oxygen to give them a chance to accomplish that. And it's such an important point that you're making and it's such a necessary point at this moment when The companies who own all of the pur strings algorithmically inclined, whether because they are essentially tech companies who have taken on this other business to monetize and exploit or because even the traditional studios that remain are now tethered to this streaming model where they have almost too much data to pour over as if it contains some sort of clue like goose Erails in the year twelve hundred BC That's not how stuff happens in film and in TV. Good stuff never comes from trying to predict the future or predict the weather Um But I also have to take a moment. I think people who listen to the interview will hear this as well. Um, call myself out on it because I think that as I did a moment ago with the planning for Ruth, like I take comfort in the same way like I like a really accurate weather forecast in the idea that Well, because Katie is so good at what she does and had such a vision and Hio is such a genius at making high high level television that they walked into every meeting confident and walked out, confident, and everyone understood because they always knew what they were doing. No writer, and I would imagine, some directors think they always know what they're doing, but very few creative people have that kind of confidence day to day. But more importantly, that kind of confidence is kind of antiseptic and anti art because it disallows other people's ability to contribute So the writers that Katie assembled, saying, well, actually, I think, as she says The sheer should come in and kill or shoot Ruth. And what's that going to do for our story? Or H talks about like the setet deck team and what they did in Ruth's house, which is so memorable y and it's one episode that it appears in You have to have that uncertainty Um what we take as a confident authorial artistic voice is often the product of that weird alchemy of complete anxiety and terror and creative inspiration when you need it most? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good place for us to segue into our interview with Katie Dipple, the creator of Wow Bay and Har Mi who direct four of the episodes for the first season. Annie and I will be back on Monday to talk about House's of the Dragon in Star City and whatever else happens over the weekend. Hope everybody enjoys USMNT Soccer Roos tomorrow. mee and Adam Friedlan will be going on after the game. Oh, you gonna to go on live? You're gonna to react? I don't know if we're going go live live, but You know, how is your Australian accent? That is a hard one to do Do you think you can Do know it I don't even know if it's going to come Honestly. Oh, ' you think we won't even be talking about the soccerist. Don't provoke No, no, no, no, I did not mean it that way. I just mean like, you know, what Adam and I are doing kind of transcends exists in a world beyond impersonation. Look gonna me trying to drag you back down to eararth. Thanks to Kai and Kai for producing. We will be back on Monday, everyverybody have a great weekend This episode is brought to you by Street Easy. Here's the thing, Wanna be the grandparents who bolted to the burbs or the cool relatives still living in NYC? the city that people come to to be at the center of everything. With twenty years at NYC know how, StreetEasy has the tools, agents, and guidance to make you a forever New Yorker too. Visit streeteasy dot com to buy a rent in NYC Street Easy is an assumed name of Zillow Inc, which has licenses in all fifty states This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of Doom scrolling? Smart move Another smart move getting help from one of State Farm's nineteen thousand local agents when you choose to bundle H and auto. Bundling J another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state I get so many headaches every month It could be chronic migraine, fifteen or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more Botox Autobota linum tooxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have fourteen or fewer headache days a month Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. 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It's a club. Of course, Jason. it's in the name. Sam's Club Yeah. Come join us S's cllub. Katie and Hiro, thank you so much for joining us on the watch. We've loved the first season of Widows Bay obviously, as we've talked about it incessantly. And we can't wait to talk to you about making it and what's the future for this show? Andy, I think you're going to lead us off. I am, but I also want to say that I'm especially excited that we're getting you, Katie here with the energy of having just come from the Jersey shore and drinking what might be your first coffee in It is my first coffee in a very long time and we're gonna to see how it goes. It's gonna to be great. So how I sound right now is going to be very different in thirty minutes. I think we should just let you cook for second marinade and then Okay, so we have many questions about the brilliant finale and the brilliant first season, but I feel like we need from you, Katie, the definitive origin story of this script because there are I think you've talked about it a little bit, but the sense was that this was generated years ago Maybe even this was a script in some form that got you hired on Parks and Rec. Is that true? Can you confirm or deny? Okay, so yes, I was twenty eight and I wrote it as a sample for parks and Recreation. but it was different then. It was much more comedic, much more joke, joke, joke. and it I think it gave Mike sure an idea of my humor, but so it got me that job. But it was quite different than what you see now I think that for many of us, the scariest thing imaginable isn't necessarily a C haag. It's looking at creative writing we did over a decade ago. So can you just talk a little bit about why you continued to return to this idea and how did your professional experiences since the Parks and Rec job shape what it became? That's actually a great point because I don't like looking back at old stuff either It's actually a horrible experience. I don't even like looking back at stuff that's been made. I have a hard time You know what I mean? Yeah. But I just kept tooling away at this. so it's like something that never fully went away. 'use I's always thinking about it U And I don't know. It was always a draft in progress kind of. Exactly. It was my version It was like my version of a novel. Gotcha, you know? Like one of those two. Age forty one But so I would just always just bring notebooks and especially when I was traveling east, I would just brainstorm what this place could be like and what kind of things could happen there and the different characters. And I just just kept at it forever. I just never wanted to stop thinking about it. Had you thought about it in terms in like the visual terms rich way it was realized in this Apple TV version of the show Had you started to think about it visually before you started talking to herero about it? Had there been like was there a look for the show in your mind when you were even in those early days of creativity with it. So okay, the very first version, there is a moment in time after a couple years at parks where I started shopping it around. and we almost Well, there was going to be an offer, but I put a pin in it because I just had this very bad feeling it was not the right time that I had not thought about it enough or what it would really feel like and what it would look like and what this world was going to be like And so that's when I kept working on it And I remember watching Atlanta, which is one of my favorite shows of all time, and I love cinematic half hour television. It's so special and all the different swings they would take And it was so rich and so much texture to it. and So as I kept working on it, I always thought Hero was the dream director for it. I never thought inboo in years, I would get him to do it S was so hilarious to me. He said yes, because it just seems like a crazy move, honestly. But so it was very inspiring to me. And TV just started changing. And so I wanted this to feel like a place that you would want to go to and that would bring a certain kind of look. and I wanted it to feel grounded. And so I didn't know exactly what he was going to do. You know He's a brilliant director that makes all sorts of surprising choices, but we talked a great deal about how we wanted it to feel. I think one of the first things you said was like You know, obviously its it's got the joke density and the world bining, all that stuff, but you're just like I just want to be in this place drinking a coffee in a diner. And the feeling of being there was like so specific And you just you knew what you wanted there. you know? And I think in a way for a TV show, the feel how it feels to be in that world is kind of the most important part And like it can be funny, but if if if if it's not A place you want to return to then you got nothing, you know? Is there a magic trick to doing that Is there like a thing that you've done maybe over the course of a couple of series that you feel like there's a question I want to answer or there's like something I want to execute, whether it's something about the depth of production design and set dressing or, you know, whether it's location scouting, but I'm always curious about like what's the thing that's repeatable? I think it just accumulates. I mean, I think big part of shooting in Massachusetts was that there's just the quality to that part of the country that we just couldn't get anywhere else and like trying to fake it in Canada felt bad. you know, And then and then I think the other part is just dynamics and like what it feels like to sit in a room with these characters just felt like the leading thing for the show. And that part always felt like you had a really distinct idea of how I should feel I feel like one time there's one joke in the pilot that we talked about a lot because hero always liked it But it was also grappling with how does that fitness ro? which is the calendar joke And the original the pilot. Yes, because we had really like thought long and hard about all these little choices. and so like the calendar joke originally was a wolf he's flipping through and he sees Wolf wolf wolf. and then it shows a sexy fireman with a shirt on and he looks at the top and it says Wolves and fireman. So like that calendar was specifically made to be Wolves and fireman, which I actually think is a funnier broader joke. It's a bigger joke U And then so I think you liked the swing, but we think, but like what is how does that fit in this scene? like where this man is coming in and he has, you know, he's determined to do this thing and he's dealing with Patricia and he's doing all these things. But so then I changed it to just a random flipped over truck. That's not explained why that's an acccoun. it became a different kind of joke But I think it felt better to us. And then my reaction was like. It's so interesting because here your point is so well taken about how the intimate nature of TV means we want to spend time there as audience members. But specifically with a project like this, the characters also have to get coffee there and have to live there in between the action And so much of this project, I would imagine has been was like a relay race of of communicating tone until you have the proof of concept and you've shot the pilot, no one can truly understand what it is, right? Could you talk us through a little bit of those conversations before we get into the more specifics of the show? Like Katie, we heard about you talking to hero. and then once you two were together What do you say to the production designer? What do you say to the executives at Apple? What do you say to Matthew Reese when he comes in to meet with you How do you communicate what at that moment only exists in your burgeoning shared consciousness to get them to buy in. You just talk you were just a very smart way of talking to the actors about treating it like a drama, you know? Yeah, I think I mean it's all kind of a guess to be totally honest, right? because we're just kind of building the plane as we're flying it., you know, And so I think there's a little bit of pretending like you know what it is, you know, so people listen to you. Yeah. But I think the first thing we talked about is like You know, when I read the pilot, it was like so funny. and was it was clear that it was a world that Katie's been thinking about for a really long time, you know Um But I was just like I wasn't quite sure how to kind of tackle it. and Katie was the one who just like I just wanted to feel like like a real place. you know. So like the authenticity and like reality of these characters as absurd as some of them are was the most important thing, right? And so that made me go, okay, then that just play it real. right? And so you know, obviously there's things that are heightened or like anachronistic or a little strange, but like I think Building the internal logic and reality of this world became the most important thing. Yeah, I think Yeah, which is also hard because when you're grounded because we wanted it to be grounded so when you you have tension or something terrifying happen You can't you'll lose everything if you do a joke where someone's not taking it seriously. Like I was always wanting to avoid Somet terrifying happening and someone a character being, well, that happened. But it's like you have to spend every moment like, oh, no, what would they do? Like how would they react to this? And it's also hard for the actors because I don't know what they're drawing on from life. you know. I hope not much. So was it was honestly it was a tricky thing because I also think And then in terms of the executives It's definitely a lot of projecting confidence. Yeah. But I do think we were very confident about the feeling we wanted. It was just how to get there was constant. like just constantly reflection. and does this feel good? Does this feel bad and just doing that the entire time? I do you can feel the fact that especially in those early episodes when there's still some like town hall office business going on that none of the people in that in those scenes think they're in like a sitcom. Like they're not like This is my bit that I always do when I come into the office. like it's all the comedy is very much like product of day to day interaction over like tasks that they have to solve. So you guys were telling the actors that end you're in a drama, but there is comic things happening, obviously. Like what was this sort of Like the way that you led that ensem. Some of it is just casting, like, you know, some let's start casting. Yeah. like the people we got for it is just like The Avengers of character actors, like you know these guys know how to play the absurd seriously. Like that's kind of their whole thing And we were fortunate that like a lot of the people also have really good comedic timing, you know? Yeah. And so even when they're playing at real, they know how to kind of like dodge and weave around a punchline or like playlay it up or play it down Um And so yeah, it was just kind of like getting them all in the pen together and seeing what happens a little bit. And I just saw an article of Stehven in the Rolling Stone where he's talking about how you Cedy, you always play it straight. and I love that. and that's what's so funny about him But I think to give him more credit, he' Also on top of being a great actor playing it straight, he's also one of the funniest people in the entire world I mean,'s a communic genius. So like having people who are great actors that will play it straight. They'll never sell try to sel or joke. They're not gonna be hammy, but they are also all very naturally funny people I mean, I was going to ask if the casting like wishlist for Wick began with Stehven and ended with Oot Like Could you ever have imagined anyone else in this part or did he just take it over and run with it? G it, I mean, he's like the best person that toing both lines. like he' he just He's so Perfect for it. to be honest, I didn't have any any one actor in mind for any of the parts, but when he said he was willing to do it, it was like, that is wonderful news. I know C hairs up for it, but he wanted to do the penguin seit. So he was like, do I get to wear prosthetics One thing I think you guys have said you've heard us talk about is that some of the parks and Reck DNA that may have existed in the show. and I always think about the way that Mike S sureure over Parks and rec and in good place brought some of the propulsive contemporary serialized storytelling into the half hour and comedic space And you can actually say with a straight face that you can see that he is a big fan of the wire when you watch Parks and Red I would say tooneally they're slightly different. Katie, can you talk about how you learned that and then how you applied it here? Because I think that one of the genius things about the season is that you are telling a big story in a cinematic way, but paste it so beautifully so that you can enjoy the fun you can enjoy episodically along the way. There were two moments that really stuck out to me. The first is like the pilot, Oh my God, we are going to be in hell for ten episodes. and then tourist come And you kind of take a breath and you exhale And then the other one was just the decision to split one of three and one of four into almost individual perspective episodes that allowed you to tell story happening concurrently that didn't sap from the overall momentum. Like this is like high level breaking like room breaking stuff, but I just thought it was so impressive. that's very nice to hear. Some of those decisions were having not done it before and not realizing how hard it would be. So like for example, we had already broken episode three with the haag and we in a writer had pitched that Patricia finds this help book And we started going on about, you know, our emotional fears of rejection and status and So what if she try with th this party? and And then somehow in the room, it what if these are happening on the same day? Now why we decided to add that complicated layer to it? and I don't know, but it seemed fun at the time. But it was says, That's how he plots together. And then he just lives in regret. But it's a good exercise. But for the parts of it It's It was such a great room there. and I always the things I love the most about this show were somethinghing I love a good throwaway joke that can come back later in a more meaningful way. And in this show that can come back in a really terrifying way, you know, not even as a joke. I also loved the world builduilding and Parks and Rack, you know, So all those are just in my bones now and so that was it was fun to take what I learned there and use it whether it's for comedy or just lore intention. Yeah, I was going to ask I'm glad you mentioned lore because that's it's kind of become a catch term recently. I mean, I know that I've had lots of conversations with people about backrooms and obsession regarding like whether or not like are these stories that can be solved, essentially in that like you're going through these puzzle pieces And I was curious about like how it feels to like organically write something that also has a clear undergiring of This is the actual history of the island. This is I know where this is going in a season or two or whatever the case may be versus also keeping it lively and playful and allowing you know moments for where someone can be like, what if Patricia found self help book? I guess you can kind of divide those things into two spaces, like there's the everyday life stuff that happens and then there is the Well, these are the of Widows Bay's history that we know we may reference at some point and the monsters that are out there. but How much did you guys talk about? You know, what has happened on this island and what what is coming for this island? So the first four weeks we spent time thinking about both things. We would think about what would be fun to do? Like what would be a fun episode? L him going to, you know, an inn to prove it's not haunted seemed like a fun thing to do But then also we equally spent time thinking about the history of the island. and we really tried to come up with a history that felt veryer real. So because I think when the absurd moments pop out, it's even funnier more a lot of the show is wait what? Yeah, you know? Yeah, Which I think is also what Hero is so good at where it's never too much in your face or too it's just sort of like you can blink and miss it, you know And you just sort of catch those moments. So we talked about both. and then it was just sort of an organic process of okay, what feels right now? like, oh, I just want this to feel like a monster of the Wek episode. I just want this to be fun. And then like, okay, now we have to get a little bit more into the store and get a little emotional hair. I say that like I'm mad at it. But So and it's interesting like seeing their reactions because we are trying to do a couple of different things. and I've seen people that have loved the Monster of the Week episodes. and then when it gets into moreor lore, they're like, no.' dilema. Well I all kind of like long for twenty episodes of just like what am I getting this week kind of. And that's I think it's more of like a nostalgia for a kind of TV that you feel for three weeks when you're watching Widows Bay And then you're like, okay, cool. Like now we have to figure out whether or not Ruth is Evan's grandmaother R Yeah I really was hoping to do get all of it if possible because I really wanted Like I'm a lunatic so I'll go to sleep watching a horror movie. Like I will just put on like, you, the exorcist or something and fall asleep halfway. But like I'm also a very anxious comedy writer. but I feel like I wanted it to feel like someone can go to bed and be like, oh, I want to put on the in episode. So there's enough standalone so you can just put something on and enjoy it for itself, you know, But still I know myself, I only I want to watch a show where that's more serialized, that there's a bigger story and that we're answering Qions so that was There's something kind of like like old V about the way we built it that I think is really refreshing. Yeah, you know. Well one thing I want to say is that as like a side side anecdote is whenever I would go into Katie's production office when we were shooting, she be like, you know, very seriously typing on her computer and then on the TV on the wall, there would be I guess like a YouTube screen saver kind of thing of like a silhouette of a man standing in the woods with like spooky wind sounds. and I'm just like, what's happening in here? That's like one of the easier ones. That's one of the lighter ones. There's one that's Halloween. There's just this videoos background videos for re. I'm very familiar. Yes. I'm try to get them to make one for the show. But there's one that it's just a house in Haddenfield Every now and then, Michael Myers comes by just like carrying this dead body. and it's so upsetting when it happens. So sometimes someone would come in my office and I'm like, Oh, I hope he doesn't come by because this would be an inappropriate thing to happen because person' trying to do a job watching Halloween vibes videos that are three hours long. Let's try to get this conversation under three minutes before I know he shows up I do want to delve into the psychological root of this, but I also want the coffee to peak. So I can ask your a question well that c a longer. The way you guys were just talking about like old fashioned TV comfort and new fashioned TV ambition, I did want to talk about on the directorial side, like here, you know that there's been a move towards the Autur theory where like a director will direct a series like it is a movie. U the thing that you guys pulled off this season that I was incredibly blown away by was fourour directors directed this season There is no massive tonal shift or drop off in quality between any of them People brought their own sensibilities and points of view and quirks, no doubt. But like that is such a veteran move. Like we used to watch television and multiple people would direct it, but it would still feel like it was coming from a collective voice How did you handle that? How did you manage to pull that off? I think there's two parts to that. I think part of it is just in the writing. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think because I assume, because so much of lived it in your head for so long there's like, I've never read a pilot and been like Oh, I know this is like this I know this whole world. you know, a lot of times you read a pilot and you go, oh thiss just they just wrote this hoping that somebody will tell them to write a second one or third one. This one just felt like a fully fleshed kind of world And so You know, I think what's magical about that is that you there's already boundaries, there's already kind of things to play with And so even if you got someone who direct the last block to come in. They're still kind of playing with like pieces that are speaking to each other and it has its own sort of rules that are a little more stable than you know,, you can't direct it off the rail, I don't think.ight. You know, I've been working with the same sort of DP and edit crew for a really long time. you know, all the guys who did Atlanta came back for this. Christian Springer. Yeah Christian and our secondary DP Cody, Jac was was our was our key gaffer when we first started And so I think there's like an understanding in and like a mutual language. and obviously the directors come in and put their own vision to it, but there's also kind of this like, you know, like a mutual understanding of taste among all the crew And so I think that keeps it a little consistent. One of the directors is Andrew D Young, who did friendriendship last year, which is one of my favorite movies. And there are elements that you could see, like the work that he does with Tim Robinson, which is incredibly funny and also kind of horrific at times. It's just like, it's almost like there's a fader and you could go in either direction. Katie, what is this connection that I have to be honest with you, I had never personally pursued or experienced between the hysterics of comedy and the hysteria of horror. I'm a weird one to ask because I find both ery delightful. L you know what I mean? You're the only one. Now Don't ask me. I just think that I've always found horror very fun. Not I mean like I mean, I love herreditary. I wouldn't say that was a fun time. I felt like I just I do with a ide. But I mean I love that movie Master But I really it's just anticipation and, you know, building tension and then pay off. I find it to be veryer similar. like I, you know, in the movies when I love when something scary happens and people scream someone screams and then everyone collectively laughs. There's a similar release that that taps into as an anxious person, it's Be able to wash your other shoe drop, you know? Um But yeah, Andy, I do think I love when people of backgrounds in comedy do horror. It's like the Jordan Pele thing or Zach Greger. I think there's a reason it can work really well. And Andy's so funny. He's so lovely. I remember on set. and I remember I went out to him with a The note to us was like, can you just just I said, just so I can sleep at night Do you could do blah blah And he was like, Ecess you sleep You say that with every note. I didnt realize how often I've been using that just so I can sleep at night peopleper. I was like, o. I think that your baggage episode is a really good example though, where it's made obviously from such a loving place of scenarios like that of slasher and you know, like Halloween and Friday the thirteenth, then And it's really funny But it's never like a satire of it. It's kind of it's like right on this line of like, no, she's running in ug boots and you know, this is an apparition slash like, you know undead, you know, demon following her It never feels like you're like doing scary movie or something like that or you're like lampooning the fact that like, o, isn't it funny that like sometimes like these things walk, but that they always catch up to the victim? And I was curious whether or not you guys That much time talking about horror movie touchstones in terms of things that you wanted to reference or whether it was putting aside all of those references and trying to like live this stuff in a much more organic way. I mean, I think Andy just got it. Like you know, he knew we all love Halloween and all those slash movies, but especially Halloween. And so I think you just understood it. And so you know, we would talk more about the character and And I we had a conversation about tone and you know, not wanting to sary to feel silly That I would say your baggage or old baggage. I should know the names of the episode. I sa you there. But I feel like eight was the closest to pushing it, like just in scripts, like it was I usually am like really sted about like this Scary can never feel silly. And that one was towing the line a little more, you know, that I would usually like, but it just felt like we weren't going to redo the genre that's been done. and we weren't going to come up with this brand new horror element to that franchise. so we might as well have fun of it and the fun is. This forty year old woman running around the neighborhood trying to get people to see that this boogeyman is stalking her. I want to ask about Matthew Reese as a collaborator. He is as a former guest in this podcast, we can attest that he is one of the most delightful people we've ever met in person and is like a true Swiss Army knife of abilities because he can be the funniest person and he can be the most emotionally vulnerable actor alive, going through the season with him, writing and directing What was the collaboration like in terms of keeping him anchored to where Tom needed to be as both the protagonist, as both, in many ways, like the audience surrogate of like, I don't think something bad is happening here What did he need to stay grounded in a character that needed to play so many different notes throughout the course of the season I mean, I don't think he needed a lot. He's just very good. He's just really good at act.'s like really good at? Yeah, honestly. like I feels like he had like a couple of questions, you know Wen's lunch. Yeah Yeah. yeah, yeah. Could I ride a horse this season? Yeah. I like there was some discussion on his backstory and there was like a couple of like logic things he asked that I was like I mean he's wr right and then fixed, you know, but like but other than that, I mean, he really is just a He's just very good. And I think he's also just a very naturally funny person and maybe he hasn't had a chance to play with that as much. And so he was excited at at the prospect. Yeah. And I think when we first started talking, we all kind of, you know, we zoomed together and I only known him as, you know, Perry Mason and And the Americans, I was expecting like a very deadly serious somber man. and he was just a joy, you know, as you as you met And I think we just all kind of agreed that like Okay, the way to approach this is going to be find the real emmotional kind of truth of it all, and then all the comedy and horror stuff can sit on top of it U And after that, he was just like, okay, I understand. And we just kind of got through a whole season. Yeah I just putting him through all these crazy scenarios and And finding the reality inside of it. That was like the cast was like the easiest part You know what I mean? Like they were just it was really not a lot of questions. They would just show up and do incredible work. I mean, I'm sure you're giving direction. am I really? But just in terms of I dont know, I just there wasn't a lot of I don't know, it was that could have made this very hard It was one of the easier parts. They were all delightful. and just Fantastic. I do remember when we shot the finale where he had like, you know, like fifteen pages of like just the most crazy dramatic scenes with Ruth, Yes. he pulled me aside and I was like, I signed up for a comedy and this is the most dramatic acting I've ever done. Well, that's a good way to get into the finale and the sort of last run of episodes because you know, Andy was asking you guys about Baking story and about playing by sitom rules versus maybe playing by more newfound prestige TV rules. I thought it was amazing how much you gave in the finale in terms of like here's where this could go, hereere's what else is happening. We've got the film strip that Jeff Hiller is watching. and Obviously the whatever is in that basement in that dungeon C you talk to me a little bit about where you wanted to end up in terms of I want to give this season a satisfying conclusion versus I want to save stuff for future story that we're going to be telling. I'm a big fan of just giving as much as possible and then deciding what the next season is. I mean, just going as long as you have I'm not trying to drag this out You know? twenty years. I mean, because I think there's more you could do in this world that beyond the story, but Anyways, I guess u I just wanted to give as much as possible. but I I knew there was going to be probably a season two. I mean, I didn't know it we didn't know it until recently. Congratulations. Thank. I don't know. I knew going into the writer's room the final dilemma that Loftis was going to have presented to him. And I knew he was going to find out about his son. and how exactly that was going to play out that was discussed a lot in the room. And it was really fun because I didn't know It was interesting. I had people pegged wrong. like some writers that were like, o, I would grab the gun and drive to her house and shoot her in the back of the head. And someome people were like, noope, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. I was completely wrong on who would do what on So it was a really fun time debating that. And so yeah, it was just a lot of arguments. And then someone else had pitched the Bir move And so once we knew that was going to happen. thenen we started working backwards So Try to make sure you can buy that as much as possible that a man would be pushed to the brink like that. And who in the writer's room pushed for the line, but he got bit by an animal and became that animal? Oh Godd, I wish I could rem. I think we should throw a parade for that person. know This is where my this is my bright is I paused and rewound four or five times. I called my daughter in from the other room and I was like, this is everything to me. This is so perfect. But like Chekov' jokes or Chekov throwways we werere like, I guess now we have to have A guy who by an animal and became that animal. I mean some some of these like you could abbsolutely do an I like that some of these things are meant to be thrown away and never revisited. and then some that you can be like, oh no, there could be a whole episode about that, you know? Yeah. So I don't know that's exciteding. Speaking about old school television, the thing that we have been delighted to observe and hear about and read in the news is that like it does sound like as much as we have any access to these opaque streaming metrics, that your show is a phenomenon in the sense that apparently it is just growing week to week to week and the audience is finding it in a way that is exciting as a fan of the medium. L That's something that people used to happen and now really only happens in the Bear and the pit and maybe Widows Bay What has this ten week journey been like for you guys of having this weird thing, especially for you, Katie, this weird thing that has lived in your head for so long and suddenly sharing it and finding that maybe other people also like weird things living in their heads? Yeah. it's really wild, you know, Be I remembered just a couple months ago, I would like look online to see if there's any chatter about it Absolutely nothing. absolutely nothing. I'm like, Well,. it's crazy to work so hard on something for so long And then you have to be okay with no one seeing it or or no one liking it. likeike If you're doing it just to try to make something that people absolutely like. That's I think how you end up with something more formulaic or expected. So I really had no idea. Even though I knew I was really proud of the work, I thought everyone just It's such incredible. jobs on this show. like it's just really like I'm always blown away by the what everyone brought, whether it's the directing or the cash or props or the VFX Yeah Um But you just don't know. And I was I honestly up until the night before reviews started coming out, I'm like, well, let's see what this is gonna to feel like, Its gonna feel real bad. You just don't know, you just don't know. Which Wh's coastline meant the most to you? 'causeuse I think we have like Stephen King was tweeting about it. You got the rare Tim Cook tweet recently whichich I didn't know he knew he had a television studio. So that was very exciting. Guo Toro? Guo D Toro. Yeah Yeah. The Giro Dl Toro one was really thrilling because from a horror director. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like 'ause I have like been in comedy for a long time. so for a horror director to like say that about the horror in the show. And specifically call out the horror aspect. It was like really exciting. That was shocking, but not I mean, that ssound was I was delighted and surprised was. I will say like you know, spe speak Katie like I think as we were making it, like every sort of craft person or department head kind of coming in, I could tell that they were invested in the world of the show that is like pretty rare, you know Um And I think it just speaks to the world that Kie initially sort of crafted. like this is, you know, it's pretty rare like The set deck people were like They had lists of what every worker at the town hall would have in their desestiny. tell. You know what I mean? Like it was like the specificity and the dressing at Ruth's house. was like It was like very personal to the set that it was like they were pulling from their own relationships to their moms and aunts and then, you know, just from that era. That point killed me. like I can't read that. I can't read that. I guess all that is to say like, you know, who knows how shows hit in the world, but I could tell that people really liked investing themselves into that world.? Why do you think you've now been a part of two shows that have done this so successfully. You've done also other brilliant work. I'm not trying to shit on Patrick Sommererville, for example, but in case is't listen I know, I kind of want that. No, but specifically in the case of Atlanta and with Widows Bay I just feel The evidence of something was the best advice I ever got, which is that a pilot script is a wonderful thing that opens a door and then you have to unlock it and let everyone else come into it and bring their enthusiasm. And that's when things can elevate. when everybody is rowing the same direction with that same spirit that brought you to your laptop however many years ago it was. Yeah having worked with two creators who haveve been able to communicate that What is the secret sauce? I mean it's sort of a craps shoot a little bit, but you know, I think it does feel sometimes like a chemistry You know what I mean? Like you're kind of like I think good ideas have its own sort of like gravitational pull. and I think people are drawn to it and they want to make something inside of it. Yeah. And so like I think obviously you have to walk in with a good idea, but then if you let the right people in the room, I think a TV show starts to kind of take on its own life, you know, and I think it becomes bigger than the sum of its parts. And I think I've watched that with Aanta, I was watched out with this. And I think it's, I don't know, it's magical every time. You know what I mean? Like you just watch a that you cast sort of like, oh, that you're that person now. Like you're not Yeah. you know what I mean? you were someone on the page and now you're just this sort of full person that I like watching And so that was a, you know, that was an experience of making this show in a lot of ways. Does the passion people have obviously, you know, expressed for the show make notot writing season two more difficult, but like do you think about things like Oh, I want to expand this and and widen the palette of characters because one of my favorite parts about this season is There's this you know, five some six some of people who understand what's happening And then everybody else is kind of like, well, am I going have any vacancies at my inn? or like how are we going to make it through through the summer season? Like do you think that The interest in the show has changed the way you're approaching it creatively at all? Not really. I mean, it's helpful to know that I I' to know that people like the Monster of the Week episodes. and so you know, I would love to that feel alive even though we're going keep going deeper into the lore and exploring different character stories. but I'm basically gonna go back to the Jersey shore next week and I'm just gonna lock myself up in this little condo and I'm gonna go to the there's a I found a new haunted house on another boardwalk. Nice amazing. that? I'm gonna to get soft surice ice cream every day. I will come back a different person. An airbrush tees. Yes. then and then go into the writer's room And this is like the this is the part that's fun that, you know, you can just imagine anything and then it's And then it's hard. And then it's very hard I noted with interest that Damon Lindoloff is a huge fan and if you ever need advice about creating a show that has a mysterious island full of questions that becomes very, very popular very, very quickly, you could probably reach out to him. There is some precedent there, I think. He has offered that, which was very nice. actually, which is very nice. He could do an instructional video and send it to you on Reels. Last thing since I have you, Katie, We were just talking about how wonderful two of the great pillars of modern television are Atlanta and now Widows Bay. In a different medium, Katie, By my estimation, there have only ever been two good tweets. One was the Gink there U Oh, I love that one. Yeah, that's a great one The other one was your Baba Duke Halloween party tweet. It is actually kind of amazing to watch a people's face light up when I try to explain like in the ear days of like, you have to watch Wowsay and I'm naming things associated with it. and I say, no, it's the woman who did the bob And they Oh yeah. That might actually be like great viral marketing. It's kind of incredible. could I don't want to send you even further back in the past, but could you just tell us a little bit about the life and afterlife of that tweet you mean like how the tw came to be how I came to be sitting there or I don't honestly we could just close our laptops and just let the cameras run for an hour. whatever you'd like to share. Oh, okay. Halloween I take very seriously. Clearly. I think that's obvious. And so I wanted to be the Babaduke you know, as one would.ure. I went to like a salvation army and got like the coat. and the hat, I really looked, I struck out. I mean, I mean, what's the opposite of struck out?ome H.ocked knocked. knock far. Thank you. And then I put a lot of the makeup on. I feel like I put the white makeup on more than needed to be. L you know what I mean? Like arms that weren't shown And then first my boyfriend was watching TV and I stood outside that window and waited for him to notice me. so I got a little scare there. I was excited about that. He did notice. He did finally notice. How long It took a long time. It took a very long time And then we drove to my friend's house who wass having his party. and you know, I had a friend said that he was dressing up as a sopranos's character, but it was just wearing a tracksuit, so it doesn't count. And yeah, no one was dressed up. And so also I just it looked worse than it even is in the photo because when I smiled my red wine teeth It was terrifying looking. Like I was talking to my friend like Jesie, who took the photo and I was trying to tell her a story and she wass like, I'm sorry, I just can't talk to you right now. I just like wandered off of her dress. And so that was that night. And then I't I put the tweet up like yeah later that year. And yeah, it was fun. I feel like it really seemed to resonate with people. It was a throwback Thursday. It was dates. So yeah, so I did have to explain that to my children.. So again, it's teaching. It's a teaching moment But I do think jokes aside like