The Physicality and Drama of Soccer

NPR. National public radio and their up first podcast. I don't know you've seen the up first podcast on NPR It gives you the three biggest news stories of the day reporting an analysis to actually understand them. That's why you go to NPR to actually understand things and they do it in fifteen minutes. That's the beautiful thing about it. And our podcast, I don't know how long our podcast is probably like two hours long and I never even usually get past the first question. That's how good they are first. they give you the headline and also the context so that you can understand it. It's not just about the click bait and the head it's NPR. And then who knows they might do whole other show on migration habits of the monarch butterfly, but for up first, that's not their bag. Their bag is context, headlines, helpeling you start the day with clarity Follow NPR's Up first podcast so you can understand what matters And what happens next? news through a human lens. As soccer takes center stage this summer, Comcast helps bring the experience home to America. As the exclusive Spanish language home of the tournament in the US, Telemundo is set to present its most expensive coverage ever. seven hundred hours of programming, live on site presence at all one hundred four matches. And with multiiew in real timee four K, Xfinity will deliver the most innovative and immersive sports viewing experience for fans watching on Telemundo, Peacock, Fox, and FS one. Learn more at Comcastcorporation dot com d Welcome to the weekly showow podcast. My name is Jhn Start. It is june twenty third. It's a Tuesday coming out tomorrow and you know what I'm doing today? I'm not talking about anything Serious done with these. Iranian negotiations and reflecting pool shenanigans. I want to talk what I've been feeling lately, what I've been feeling the excitement of lately, what's been running through my blood lately is this World Cup. This United States team that is making so far a really nice run, fine attacking football, fun attacking football, showing themselves to be really a quality side. and that's what we're going to do 'king World Cup, we're talking and I'm not talking FIFA Peace Prizeu. I'm talking Wor Cup World Cup teams, the stories, why it's so important to us, why we love it Uh and we couldn't have two better guesss do this We've got Roger Bennett founder of the Men and Blazers Media Network in Tariq Panja Global sports corpondent at New Yorkimes and they're going to carry us through This World Cup frenzy Ladies and gentlemen, I am struck by World Cup fever as many of you are at home as well. and we we couldn't have better guests today We couldn't I could tell you we could, but we couldn't because we couldn't get better guesss. We could not get better guess is what I'm saying. You could, Johns. Latan and Alexi were available. It's really all about the emphasis. That's exactly right. Roger Bennett, founder of the Fantastic. Men in Blazers, Media Network and Tarik Panja, Global sports correspondent, New York Times. Gentlemen. The heck First of all, Roger, it is such a delight to have you on the program to see you by your iconic map Maetema Tk to have you in your iconic Fleaabag Motel That's about right Whver they're putting you up. I don't know what the New York Times budget is for sports reporting, but I need your help. I don't know, man. You tell them, you tell them J It's good to see you both. John, it's good to be with you. It's not often Both of us are with a footballing icon, ten goals twelve assists for the William Mary tribe. Oh, you got the stats. I've got I mean everybody everyone's talking about it when they think about you They think about you as like The man you are conscience of America I think more people know you as just that hard hitting midfielder and the coach Al Albert An iconic legend, the man who really made football go in this country No That spepecial. Now, Roger, I do want to explain obviously You've got beautiful legs because I've seen the photos. You got an incredible pair of legs. Oh When you look at those legs, what do you think? I called them getaway sticks back in those days. Roger is quoting my college stats, ten goals, twelve assists. the only thing that I do want to say in soccer's defense, that was over twenty years That's how as long as a World Cup isn't it? It took me a while to accumulate those stats is what I'm saying. But you're going to know when back in the day when we all started doing this talking about football in America And we think about guests Like it was you It was like Kyle wrote was me and Kyle wrote Junior. and that was it me and Ricky Davis Yeah and Mucci Merniick and that was about the end of it. And Premio Lev and yeah, we can never get wrote But you were you were like an early, early, early, early lover of the game in all seriousness. I loved it. I was raised in a town where it was very much uh Italian immigrants Holy sh they brought soccer to Central Jersey ported it You know, that was the thing. We had, you know, there's a famous bridge where I grew up in Trnton called What the worldorld Trenton makes the world takes. W take Turk, didn't you do your research on this? Guys, I have of Look at Rogers, Roger is running circles around us right now Well, I was just thin of Rogers making up American sounding names? No Can I tell you something? He is nailing, he has clearly gone on some kind of William and Mary soccer Wikipedia pageage. When are youre talking about? this is this is like when you when you meet Pelle When you meet Maradonna, you don't have to research them. you know because you've lived it. I'm watching you and Al Albert. I want to know when you do look at those photos because the shorts were short The thighs were popping. They were. they were popping. Roger, it was a different style back then. I know, but it was very I mean, I don't know if you can pop it up on this podcast because it might not be safe for work But I look at them and I think, God, that is beautiful That's incredibly American. They were solid. I also think, man, death comes for us all. like we're all gonna die. Oh my brother, let me tell you something. When I look at those pictures and I look at myself now, I think why did why do I sleep in a meat dehydrator? That's such a mistake. That was such a mistake on On my part, Tk, he's not even, it is true. he's not doing Uh research He probably remembers our famous match against Longwood Don't get me started in nineteen eighty two. And Coach L Albert and coach Catber He knows the three names, Turk. you're like bleeding from your mouth. You' like coach, pull me back in. How do you think when when you think back to those matches, do you believe American football soccer? has come a long way to as you watch the American team play Do you see advances in our style of play? I find it fascinating I remember the days when our best player was always the keeper, whether it Brad Friedel, whether it Tony Miola U and now we're playing attacking form of soccer k is it hard to see this from the Americans? Do you fear us now? Are Are you fearful of our squad? A fear ofong? The Germans were fear In a word, no, but it is exciting. It is exciting to see It is great. How about in two words No, and not really. look I think I think World Cups are great when the hosts are doing well. and you've got here you've got the US Mexico and Canada and they've all kind of shown up And I've got an apology to make because On our podcast on the daily before the tournament, I said This is not a good football team. And there is a huge amount of egg on this face right now because they really showed up att the time it counted as well. We you know, we were playing possum in all the qualifying. We weren't showing ourselves to be who we truly are Well, u And and Pch is into it, Rog, the coach. Yeah, who seemed to be trying to get another job, many jobs all the time while he was the U S. manager. He was trying to So get a European team, I felt like What do we call it? a come and get me please? That's right. Yeah. And Now, I think after that second game against Australia He showed a level of emotion that I'd not seen with him and this U.S. team. He was really, really into it. He's talking about the coach. For those of us, you know, our podcast is generally dealing with nuclear negotiations through Iran. So I just want to explain to him. He's referring to the famed coach of the American squad an Argentine legend Poino who on local news across America, they call him his name's Mauricio Pogatino, they call him Coach Poach. That's Cach poach Cach pooach is going through many emotions. He did want to leave look like recently he wanted to join the Irvin Police depepartment when he saw they have they have Tesla cyper trucks. But o we can drive one of these. he has to go inside. But he's having an extreme makeover himself. Hes start to dress in like nineteen eighties game pocher cool. He's grown his hair out like Russell Crow and he's having the time of his life. We're all having the time of our life, which I think is what Football is about lookook, this US team has not been very good. Our women's team kicks ass takes names is a dream team. Our men's team has been and new listeners who are like, whyy is that English guy saying, Wait, I love America like Kenny Powers loves America. Y. And this story we embrace you by the way. I sure. I'm not sure that really chang J Start But I won' won't have you say those things about me on this show. The The men's team have been like a dream on team and we've always wanted them to be great. They've won one. knockout game in our entire history going back to George Washington And if you've not followed suuddenly in this World Cup They're playing a bullion waggering buc iner in football, albeit about The greatotest opponent so far. really is. It's I watching Matthew McConugh. I was trying to work out what is it like this shot, this surprise, this wonder. It's I watching McConaughy just Rom com it, phone it in, mayaybe I'll do Texas Chainsaw Massacre may just and then suddenly be like Sod that, you know what? There's an integrness Theeliz are then Dallas Byers Club. Yeah. this is our this is our Dallas Byers Club, Johonn Stewart. Can I tell you something? I looked at that when I saw the Americans play, I thought to myself the same thing This is a team. This is all Dallas Boyers Club. U losing weight. to portray an AIDS patient And aren't they doing it supremely well? We are the kings of own goals right now. I mean, the one thing I would say this, look American football is always, and I'm hearing people all over say Oh my Godd, they took Paraguay and Australia. Can we win this whole thing? And I would like to say right now for the record no. We cannot. But why would you say that, John? That's rational And sports or fandom is purely ridiculous and emotional. I will tell you, I was in Seattle where that game was. We did a live show before The thing with Marshae Lynch. Oh I love Marshae Lynch. And there were five thousand people there They were out of their mind. They come from all over America. they brought their kids, they were making memories. We then marched to the match. It was like If you've watched a movie called Ferris Bller, you'll remember like the German dayapper. It felt like just a crazy buullant cacophony. It felt like Mardi Gras but like football themed And all that matters Ultimately, I think about all of this in this very dark world of ours, peopleeople having releasase Sense of connection, sense of memory making, sense of hilarity. And yeah, I think the I mean, Tarite will know this better than Iither. what is the what is the odd the percentage chance of America winning? It's like two point nine four percent Letting yourself believe it's one hundred percent There' a whole point. That's exactly the percentage I know Rod. B the way, it's the same percentage Iran had with us in the war And they won. So like maybe maybe we're going in the wrong direction here. Maybe we can pull this off ope Hope springs eternal. But the thing about Thank you, Terry. Th These tournaments It's the journey. It's fantastic. This is my favourite part to be honest of the Wor Cup Right at the start. when everyone arrives icularly these fans from God knows where all over the place. And it's an expanded field. Let's also be fair. It is now forty eight teams. so it is a messier tournament than we've ever seen and you're finding those teams that have, you know, a Cape Verde or something like that where Hope Springs ernal. But it is a it is a larger field than we're accustomed to watching. Yeah, this is this is to give you a sense of the scale of this There were sixty four matches for the entire tournament in Qatar four years ago or three and a half years ago because it was in winter You will need seventy two matches just to get through this first group stage. So more than guitar just to get into the knockout. We're kind of drowning in these worldld cup matches. It's an ultrra marathon and we're all getting runners nipple Roger, do you enjoy the expanded format? Do you enjoy the messiness of it? You know, And let's be fair also. you askking me how much chafing is, Jo I' got chafing How is you chaving? It's forty eight teams. There's only, I believe sixty teams in the entire world. So we're getting close to just everybody being in the world. Yeah. William and Mary. Mary is sixty one. You will be I promise you The crazy part of this is everyone coming in was like, you know, Kpe Verd, this tiny team, like, you know, Caco, this tiny team of one hundred and twenty. They're going to get absolutely obliterated. It's going to be an embarrassment 've been bloody good. They've been what you could say part of the story of this World Cup. Cape Verd, this tiny archipelago of islands off the West coast of Africa, six hundred miles west of Senegal. I know all this now. I didn't know it six days ago until they took the field against Spain, the World Cup favorites and held them at arm's length with a goalkeeper um who was Stunning a forty year old journeyman, nobody, Vizinia held them at bay, made save after save, cried at the end because his mother was not able to enter because she couldn't get a visa He came on our show that afternoon and told his story beautifully powerfully, nobly humbly. he immediately by by at the beginning of the day had twenty nine thousand this is like a Aou A baseball player America if you're listening. He by the end the beginning of the day had like twenty nine thousand Instagram followers By the end of the day, he had ten million. he now has fifteen point seven. He has more followers. on Instagram now than Weemby and Mahomes combined. He has more followers than the Pope This is what the World Cup can do People have always entered the World Cup to become influencers. Yeah, and probably John Stent, your mind is already was It's already now I'm thinking to myself, I've gott to go back and play again Mh. We've all got great ideas rattling around our heads about businesses. I've got an idea about uh, a business like a where you make really good socks And and you put them on your feet and they're really well made and really comfortable. And then for every one of them, you like give something away. That's my idea. I don't think anybody's doing it. But that's what I want to do. But if you got a business idea and you want to make some dollars, there is a company that can help you make that pipe dream a reality And that Sopify, all the dumb ideas that I have rattling around in my head. I can use Shopify to make a reality And they make it easy. The design studio, hundreds of templates to build your online store. What are you going to do? Hire people Experts? No. You go on Shopify They help you find your customers easyer to run email and social media campaigns tell you man, Shopify. It's time to turn those what ifs into shopify today Sign up for your one dollar per month trial today at shopify d. com slash TWS. Go to shhopify dot com slash TWs , what's been your favorite underdog story of this? Has it been Kate Vt? hasas it been Curisal? What's been your favorite underdog story of this World Cup so far? I think it's hard to look beyond the story Roger told about Vazinia. Curus out as well getting a point. off Ecuador. Stunning. And like you know, you say these names, Ecuador, Corllo, like Ecuador is a big footballing nation. They were very good in qualifying in South America. and again, one of my predictions, which haven't come true just yet, there's still time that Ecuador will go deep in this tournament. They they are stacked with great players who play at top European teams. and you have this team from Kurasa. but the other the other kind of story for me I think is the The story of us of people and these teams are populated by the diaspora as well. As a member of a diaspora myself, you know, my family's from India. I'm I'm English your your sick kids are seeing representations of themselves in all of these countries. And My love for the World Cup goes and all of us probably, Rog, your first one, mine, you know, when I was a boy, The World Cup every four years, the scarcity of this thing These are moments of your life. You can date yourself, you can place yourself in all of these moments. Now Now there's going to be children somewhere who are learning about Corissll who are learning Roger, a child, a man child is learning about Caate Verde. And you know, got I got a call from a friend of mine in Mexico, an Argentine friend. hisis son is all over the Democratic Republic of Congo That is the project he's decided to do at school. That's amazing. And he said, call him, please call him and he'll tell you all about them. I don't think there's anything like it. I genuinely don't think just that there's nothing like the Fotball World Cup, not the Olympics notot anything that we've been able to do. up until now match the picture of this. And I'm just seeing these pictures, like you know obviously the Scots in Boston drinking us dry the Koreans in Mexico City. like all of it is just the Japanese cleaning up the stadiums, everyverybody's learning. It's beautiful for Americans because and it's hard for Americans to understand the importance of the World Cup around the world because it just hasn't really It's not our national sport, although it's rising, certainly in popularity. but we generally for Americans, we learn geography by whoever we're bombing. You know, we now we know where Kabul is and Toront, you know war is God's way of teaching Americans geography the world embraces different form of community in World Cups. It's about that competition also interaction. And Roger, that's isn't that what makes this the most magical of times because the countries travel with them I mean, I think the It's been very profound in our context. I mean to see the world love America in the most joyous way, in the most profound way. But what Tariqe said is true that it's once every four years It does make my life, I feel I wrote a book about it. We are the World Cup about I can tell my life alternately by World Cup to World Cup. It is the spine of my life, the most profound memory making. That's for me and millions and millions of human beings around the world. What we're experiencing in the here and there is when we feel most alive because the world's coming together humuman beings under conditions of great pressure are defining themselves revealing themselves in And like as epic Greek heroes with a script acted out live But this World Cup does have that added dimension that I think is incredibly profound which is Well, two things for me, the story of my life, John is America falling in love with global football. nineteen ninety four, the Last Men's World Cup was here. It was meant to turn us overnight from like Captain Kirk in Space, the final frontier to a proper football loving nation. It wasn't overnight, it's taken time. But it was profound. that ninety four World Cup in America was profound and how it changed the way and the fact that we went and went into the knockout round was was a big deal for us. In Stonewashed Denhim, it was beautiful. But before that before before that before that W cup, I remember book that there was a study taken about favorite sports in America and soccer was sixty seventh trackor pulling was sixty six. The economist has just done a study that found out that soccer is now America's third favorite sport. I was just on A Rod's show. and he kept being like, when's this soccer thing going to take off? I was like, A Rod, it's third now. He'd be like, well, what where's baseball? I'd be like, I've got some bad news for you, man. It's number four now. you know, the other side of that is the football world falling in love with America and two things are very profound watching Lawrence, Kansas open its heart to the Algerian team There's just levels to that of openness. and revealing yourself, your heart, your soul to the world and the world, embracing us back. And I will say in this context, it feels so good It feels so good and needed and the world fall in love with things we take for granted, but I've always looked at as an outsider who's been embraced by buckies. when you do go to a buucky's, it is a life changing wafflehouse smothered than covebred. S lemon pepper wet. to watch the We take these things we take getting in a fist fight at three AM over poached eggs for granted Yeah, what do we fight for freedom for if not that man smmothered and covered every time? But The other point is very true and I want to be clear. The embrace of football fans, Scottish fans. I watched that with an equal marvel, John. when we were growing up And you know nineteen seventy eight World Cup, nineteen ninety even, you know the English fans were put on an island off Italy so that the police could contain them because football fandom was far more about a zero sum game based on hate. I mean know, people went to the games the Hooligan era. Yeah. to watch the Scottish fans to watch the Norwegian fans to watch the fans embrace each other. You know it's beautiful. it's needed. It's an open, it's a world where the boundaries are porreous the love is the World Cup of love. It's fleeting. I wantt be clear. I'm under no illusion But it's deeply profound. We had Diego Luna, the actor on our show the other day and he was talking with a Marvel about watching the Mexican fans just fall in love this fusion of Mexican and South Korean fans. And he's like He said What's happened to us? We used to, you know, proper fans used to fire rockets at the opposing teams hotel at three AM in the morning. Now we're just embracing them, holding them, hugging them. I like the old way, but the new way is we need we need the new way. But you know why that is too? And I think it's this and Tariq maybe you can speak to this, I think there is a thirst in the world. The governments are so at odds with each other the rise of this kind of autocratic nationalism There is an air of tension and sort of imminent catastrophe And it's a reminder that people are not their governments that the people are actually, they connect on levels of humanity and empathy. and this game, if it does anything brring that to the fore I was just I was just going to say that as my my sort of trip around the U. S. and I've been in Tioana as well with the Iranian team because they've been kind of exiled in Tioana. and Just on that first The way the Mexicans and the Tioamans have taken to the Iranian national football team it's just magical to see because it wouldn't have happened but for the awful circumstances, but then people take over. E day in the morning and at four PM when these when the team's going to go and train. these people line up at the gates, Th Mexican guys appear to celebrate this Iranian team and then some of the Iranian diaspora come across from Southern California to meet these guys and makes everybody feel warm and special in this moment. I in Looking at the US itself I wasried, I'll be honest you. I was worried about this Wor Cup but I was also worri about myself, like from I'm based in England I look like this. I was going to come over and I thought, oh Yeah, this is going to be interesting.. What will immigration to the airport be like? will I being in that room that I sometimes have to go in or will I get sent. But like all of these things because this is the kind of vibe. It's the moment in this country. Yeah. and from the outside as well, like I've covered a lot of World Cups and the The thing with Qatar in Russia These were countries that were desperately trying to tell you. whatever you're reading about us We're not like that, even if they might be like that. It was like, let's put the best possible Facade on if it is that and make everyone feel more welcome than they could possibly have imagined. But the posture of I guess the US. government to the world has been very different to the past. I We're kind of closed The World Cup is happening in a country that China doesn't like the world right now. So this is going to be or the reverse. the world doesn't particularly like us right now Yeah. Yeah, like do you want these h the hordes of these foreigners coming in and do the foreigners feel comfortable coming in? So it was a really odd sensation before and You've just nailed it as well. like people have taken over It isn't a government right event But it'st not always the contradiction of sport. And Roger, you know, look It's the beautiful game And yet it's run by maybe the ugliest bureaucracy. You know, FIFA is twenty fifteen, these guys are you know, there's an enormous scandal of bribery set bladder, you know, FIFA officials from everywhere are going to jail. It's very clear that Russia and Qatar and Who knows about the United States bought their World Cups pull around the frustration, Roger sometimes of a game you love so much, a game that is so unifying. is so easily times corrupted by the ruling body that runs the sport countries that try and dominate it. And how do we separate that out I don't know if we do, it's like cognitive dissonance. When you were talking about the emotionalism of this experience and the people taking over, you could say the same thing with the Kicks, John. And he was wait don't hate, what Watch yourself. You were there, man. You were there. Johon Stewart was there. Lbs from William and Mary In the streets, baby. I was in the streets. I mean, you watch that, you watch side talk, you watch all of that and the human ecstasy and the memory making and profound cross generational or wonder that that U that's galvanized. you know, no one's stopping in that moment and being like, what do you think about the owners? What do you think about, you know, the family that are running it and what they're it's just like I mean you know what you feel. I can't tell everyone's their story. that you know their dad's not here to in those moments, you're like, my dad is not here to see this. I wish my dad was here, you know, my friend U know, I have great friends who died very young, huge Kicks fans Um, you know and their their friends wore jerseys that they given them right in the day when they were kids, you know, going to Football is both deeply rational And hyper hyper hyper emotional U and this is the pattern. Look Tqu, we were in Brazil together in the run up to that World Cup and it was doom and gloom catastrophizing about the we were there for the social unrest the year you were held at knife point You know, it felt like darkness was about to rain. Were you really Try did not during the tournament, but yeah, I had to My my Brazil experience. Yeah, yeah. I was I was I was mugged in Lagoa wish you young men well whatever you're doing. I mean, that's ultimately it. Football, more than any sport, its tremendous power is that it holds a mirror up to the world that surround it. That's honestly the thing I've always loved and the World Cup more than anything, John. is when two teams take the field, their nation's histories, their nation's cultures, their nation's politics take the field It's not like this when the San Diego Padres play the, you know, the Chicago, it's a great game of baseball, but like there's levels to this. And as a kid, the levels were always profound and remarkable, magical, even when they weren't England, Argentina in the shadow of the Falkland Wars Germany against France, when France was still recovering from its post war identity, all kinds of a story into a narrative that had heft The world's just gotone so much darker and so the stories have gotten dark. I mean it's still a mirror. We may not light the sh image of ourselves that we're seeing of the, you know, the complexity of the name. I mean the how the Iranian football is and the tees reflect it. Yeah. How France doesn't exist as a world power right now without their story of colonialism because those French players And there is always that tension of who is actually French or who is actually of that country. And the players not necessarily feeling the love from the people that you know, it's it really is deep And it will happen again and again and that's this sad truth of this. I remember Meser Ozil, the German player won the World Cup, great, great attacking midfield player. And he had this quote. he's from a Turkish background and he said I'm German when we win, but I'm Turkish when we lose.. And I think he nailed it. And to your point about how can you separate these things about FIFA and the World Cup and all of this thing? I have a lot of people asking me, given what I write about is often the kind of dark crevices and the naughty corners of the game and said, well, How do you still enjoy the World Cup? And I don't just enjoy it. I absolutely love this thing. I do It's a really simple answer. It's ours. It's not theirs The World Cup is is everybody's. it's just got this FIFA logo on the thing It is moment in time where we all own this thing. and we all have the right to enjoy it. whether you can afford a ticket or not You just have to go out in the streets. Now those people in Lawrence Kansas They will have World Cup experience immaginable They might not ever set foot in a football stadium Right And this will be happening all over the place, also in homes all around the world There'll be kids staying up, allowed to stay up Its very late in the middle of the night and they'll be talking about it bleary eyed at school the next day. This is our thing. Yes, there is a FIFA stamp on this and FIFA is many, many things The tournament is everybody's Listen to me I know a lot of you folks out there You love companies with composite names buy an amers sand or plus sign, whatever it is, well. You're in luck Bowl and branch is what's happening in the world asleep You know how it is in the winter, you get mad because like your spouse steals your covers on the summertime, and I don't know how this has been happening My spouse has been adding covers to me addding layers. It's like waking up in a hot box simimplest way to upgrade your sleep is upgrade your bedding. And who does that better than Bowl and brranch? You might say to yourself, well, couldn't Bowl handle that? or couldn't Branch handle that? No Together they are stronger, like the Wonder twwins Like when you have the rings go together Bl, Yes, fine company, brranch, ye, but together Ble and branch That's when the thing really takes off. signignature organic cotton sheets, breathable pillows, Waffle blankets blankets that I I think look like whoa and comforters They got it all. So sleep cooler this summer with Bowland Branch during their annual summer event for a limited time to get twenty percent off site wide at Bowland branch dot com slash TWS with code TWS. that's Bowl and branch. B O L L A N d B R a N c H dot com slash TWS code TWS to take twenty percent off exclusions apply I want to ask you guys because it is How did, you know, Roger was talking about the Nicks and I can remember how the Nicks imprinted on me when I was six years old, seven years old. How were you imprinted? where did your first sort of memories of joy and love and family and community and soccer come together. Tereika, I'll start with you and then Roger For me, it was everything You wake up, you have a ball in your hand, you're at school and Wait, you're just trying to get out of that class and play and then I was about five, five or so I still remember it. It's a grainy memories, right of that World Cup in ' eighty six, which was in Mexico. and rememember being taken to An uncle's house when you're Asian. An uncle's house means a lot of people. And there was nearr where Where who's got the biggest TV? and there's only one T like these days, that's the other thing, like this second screening a multi screening. It's kind of taken away something and headphones and all of these things where people aren't as kind of you're almost forced to watch together whether you like it or not. You might not. Right. This is pre cable with the little antennas that stick up and move around TV is wider than it is tall and you know, deeper than it is wide. And you've got this guy who is both a hero and a villain in Diego Maradonna. Yes. this this complete One off And what he did to England in eighty six I just don't think there'll be Two moments like this You can't script this stuff, where he where he has jumped into the air and Hand of Goded the open. Yes. They called it the handand of God. It was really just the hand. It was brilliant though. It was brilliant though, by the way. He not only did it to reach He then in the post match interview, they said, didid you handle the ball? And he said, it was a little bit the head of Diego a little bit the hand of God. That's genius. Wh was a genius because The next thing he did Just leaves you slack, Jeord. Are you talking about the goal where he basically takes it? He ran from the halfway line. It was crazy We're in in this in this Beautiful sunlight in this stadium and It's just magical. So the next day I guess who we're all calling ourselves, We're all mariuana in the playground either we're trying to do a hand of God Or or you're going through everybody. We're trying to do this yet. I absolutely fell in love with this tournament with these people with this game all of this and it endures despite everything to be honest. And it has it has levels where it connects, you know, Maridon and now we watch Argentina today and Messy. beautiful is touched by the hand of God. Here's a man who's thirty nine years old whose play Obviously one of the most prolific scores that the game has ever seen. He's It can't be more than five five, like Maradona. has this incredible sense of the goal and has put away five goals in two games. He scored every goal for Argentina in the run of play without ever running the penalty kick that he was given he misses without ever breaking into a run ever Right It's just it's like the closest we will ever get to watching someone with Jedi powers just mind meld. It's really hu remarkable. He's the figure more than any thatmer he's bigger in America than the game of football itself. L the Maradonna thing was amazing because of Falklands war came before So this was he didn't just do it. he did it in the context of geopolitical chaos And I think a lot about it, like he cheated. He punched the ball in, listeners, you're not allowed to use your hands. And then minutes later while we're all howling in agony, he cheated, he cheated. He essentially the equivalent of a kickoff return through the whole team, our whole heroes eviscerated all of them. afterwards, one was interviewed, said, whyy didn't you try and kick him? He said, we did. He was just that fast He looked like he was moving at double speed. I mean, if you get a chance to go on YouTube or whatever to find the goal, it's remarkable. And the commentator, the Argentinian commentator find his translation, he was cosmic kite, he screams as he does it. It's beautiful.. I went outside as a kid. I'd just see my heroes emasculated and I just got I was so angry By the way, Maradonna could have done the second goal whenever he wanted. He wanted to cheat us. He wanted to show us I can F you this way and now I'm going to F you that way. And I can do both because you are my whatever insert word there. And I went outside fifteen year old me In agony, my heroes had been eviscerated and I took my football soccerball and just dreve it. I wrote about this in my book drove it right through the front window of my house in agony. and my dad who was, you know, quick to anger himself, just looked at me as the glass tinkled down and he goes, I understand Rach. I understand. And now now I have on my wall in my office I have that framed handball signed by Maradonna because I'm grateful that I saw it. I felt and this is the point, John. Ultimately, I'm dead inside, man The world has killed me. I am confused and lost and unmored But when I feel these things, when I see Messie do what he did yesterday, I know I'm feeling things that most people feel in real life I'm dead to. and I'm feeling it with millions of other people. We are paying witness. This is your conduit back to the living in many it is.' like I'm like Matthew McConaughey behind the bookshelves, man. I'm just there over the you're going through the whole McConaughey Ufa here. kind of. Well it's you know it really is. But's you know, I mean, some people Some people have the Bible, and I think McConghe's hit every single human emotion. I'd love like the Romcoms, man. How did you come to it, though, Roger? How did you're fifteen in the eighty six World Cupat? When did you first like with Terei? when did it first imprint itself upon you that this was something special that was going to be in your life I'm from Liverpool. I'm from Liverpool. Liverpool Football is like Indiana, high school basketball, Texas, high school football. It's like Oliver has made me a Liverpool fan by the way. Oh John. That's what he. you there. Listen, I made him a M fan. He made me a Liverpool fan. Is this true? It is. man if you're a Mets fan, John, you should be an or. I don't want to tell anyone how to live their life, but you like , you like joy that's fleeting, you like hope, you like doomed hope. You're like, o doom God. Doom is the operative word there. Yeah, so come on, man, come with me on this journey to misery. comeome with me, my friend. take my hand.. I've got to talk to you after about this, John. This is not this is not the way, but we'll pick them. Look. so it was in Liverpool, football music are like air water fire, man. So they're just there My dad chose Everton. When he was a kid, he often we often used to say, wouldould we be different if we were Liverpool fund and we won things? he'd be like, we'd be unbearable. We wouldn't appreciate things. We wouldn't appreciate you have to not winning. He wouldn't call it losing. He'd be sometometimes not winning is important. and he'd say When you do e out something joyous, you just have to dance like at your own kids wedding. I think the truth of life is in is in football or sports fandom. You've just lived it as a Kicks fan, man nineteen se firstirst World Cup, nineteen seventy eight, it's where I start my book Like football in England when I grew up was muddy pitches, violent men are backw. You go the games. I go of my dad who was a decent man, you know. We'd routinely step over broken bloody bodies on the way to the game. know men just holding their hand out asking for help, their teeth smashed out by a brick. Right. Because they wore the wrong scarf. Yeah, And you wouldn't even like look at them. You would be like, oh yeah, there's just your brain would just be like, o, there's another brok body. Yes, you'd step out. Excuse me, on the way to the gate. just carnage everywhere. L you just see police horsers charging people with iron bars. I've seen men Punch police hores', craziness Sen it? Sen it all, That's f. Is that because the horses were rooting for Liverpool? I don't I never asked the horses for the wrong scarf ph. Yeah the wrong yeail, you gonna get it That's what happened. that's my culture. And then nineteen seventy eight Um the World Cup was in Argentina we didn't have much live football on in England either. It kicked off And the first game We tuned in, huge stadium Thousands and thousands from the bleachers as Argentina toought the field, the fund throughre toilet roll, thousands and thousands of toilet rolls cascaded down confetti. joyous and my mother, very practical turn around to us and goes take a toilet roll to a football game Ive I turned to my dad and I was like I was like, Oh my Godd, dad. Botball can be joyous, it can be fun, who knew And the dark side of this, John, because I know you're a dark man and you want darkness and what I give to you is that nineteen seventy eight World Cup was run by the military hunter to try and They hired an American PR company. What was it burst and Burst to Marella. Oh, that's right. They did a paper called What is trrue for productroducts is also true for countountries. And Henry Kissinger was like hired to publicly proclaim Now the world will see the true face of Argentina. Oh right. And even then watching this, that's the dissonance that you want, man, that you're talking. E then nineteen seventy eight There was a human that people were being thrown out of planes at the same time as we were watching You know, Argentina win the World Cup No, that's a remarkable juxtaposition there because I think you're absolutely right. And so in that same moment of darkness and I think this is kind of what we're talking about is You feel the hope If we can just break through those hierarchies and structures that are holding everything back And we get to suddenly touch each other's hearts during these things. And I know that sounds ridiculously overwrought and Maudlin really is and I tell you this Wing the Kicks in the street Game five And thinking back to the first time I was at the garden in the early seventies in the nosebleeds, watching the Nicks and the Celtics goingo to those games with my son, being in the street with my son my wife with my friends, feeling the streets. I'm telling you was It was I am not a religious man. This was spiritual. They fununny man. It's wild John Stewart I'm a horrible man. I moved to America Um, in nineteen ninety three September, two days over landed in Chicago, second night. Breaking news, Michael Jordan's retiring. I felt terrible. likeike I'd done it like guilty. And then I watched the ball season, that Michael Jordan this ball season before he came back in Tony Kucoot, Scottty Pippin the one year we thought we could win the ch Yes. Yes. you were like Yes. And by the way, I didn't know, I'd never watched basketball before, but I became mesmerized. this bulls team. They had a center Lute Longley who was from Australia He and I arrived in Chicago at the same time, neither of us really seemed to know what the hell we were doing there. And I loved him and I watched him and then we played the Kicks in that epic battle between where it felt like to me good and evil. Like I still have nightmares of John Stark' puby mustouache. Wait, whoo was who? For me, I'm going to be honest with you. I was popper Balls. Yeah, and I watched John Starks destroyed with his puby mustouache And three nights a year, I will wake up in a cold sweat like just John Stock's like a Cheshire cat, just a mustachees left and I'm like, o Oh my God, that was Anthony Mason, what an athlete he was. Oakley turn, you know, the Benedict on of basketball. That was in the days of the they were bruisers. Yes. And so they beat the crit we were valiant But you beat the crap out of us and I hated that. I really, really, really hated the Nicks. I'll get to my point here. I'm a horrible person. I carry that hate in my heart. The older I get In my kids, I'm a New York person now despite my accent The older I get the more I'm just like, you know what? Whatever gives you h My kids are all huge Kicks fans. It's like my worst parents day and I can't stand it. It's really It's really upset me. It's really upset me. It's like really dark and my wife can't understand it, but it really upsets me But even I, John, this is my point watching them You know, feel that joy, feel that cononnection, feel that memory making, feel that sense that everything is possible. It's not kids listening to this.'s not everything isn't possible. but E me with my dark cart, I'm so happy for you. But once every fifty three years, something like that. is I' happy for. I'm happy for you, Jon. Tare, have you ever had that in your rooting life? Have you ever had that feeling of Dvation and the deprivation suddenly going to the mountain topop and feeling that you know, the distance between the two making it sweeter like that. What's been your history as a fan Is it doing on break U I I'm kind of a fan of the sport I'd say these days rather What you ellmo? you w back aside? I'm not. But what I'd say I live recently I just had this magical experience as well I want to talk about like New York and London both had these moments a few weeks apart And I was watching what's happening in New York from a distance. I'm not a basketball guy, a New York guy or a Nix guy. but it felt very familiar watching this I live in North London where Arsenal plays. Go on, youve gota Hey. And I must say, which whichever neighborhood it is, and it doesn't matter which country I was in Argentina recently reporting as well where you have a lot of neighborhood teams. When the neighborhood team is doing well or something is up. it's in the air There's just a different little L little magic. People looking each other in the eye Siling. mightight I have saying there maybe even a little nod Then Arsenal hadn't won the league in twenty two years and they're not They're not an Eton, sorry, Rog. you know, they are they are one of the One of the bigger teams in world football, but still right twenty two years Theres generations of people who haven't seen this team lift the Premier League title U and and they did. and Parade in our little corner of it was Honestly one of the most magical afternoons of my life to be honest. I'm not a fan of Asenal as well. This is the point. Joy is infectious, man. Joy is infectious It was amazing. More than ever we need that joyery. We need it. We need this stuff. We do need this stuff. and The thing that I just marveled at was I'm seeing like women in hijabbs Everyone, all sexual society. There's a guy with a pint A woman with a hijab and they're singing the same songs The streets were packed. every type of person imaginable was there communing in this one spot, this one day Um When the when the number nineteen was stopped. going down Blackstock Road and people pouring on the bus driver who was infected with this joy. Yeah, notot like Guys, I'm trying, I'm on my route here. What are you doing Get on board. and party on the bus full of Everyone. It us. But not just there, not just there, Tarka, it was across Africa, man. accross Asia. you saw massive, massive But I think the point and the next, we need the joy more than ever, man. This is why though FIFA Peace Prize is so meaningful. You know, people look forward to that FIFA Peace Prize being given out every year because of what soccer and football brings to the world Wake up We got a lot of interesting things going on here You cannot fall asleep during the podcast. you can only fall asleep Do you have heard about our latest sponsor change your sleep game. Forever, avocado brain Th theseese avocado mattresses, they're designed similar to an avocado to provide comfort and proper support. Ver people know that about The avocado is designed to provide comfort support and go these things focus on thoughtful craftsmanship. They're they're not mass produced Products Bespoke seasonal If you were in Brooklyn Perfect place to sleep Choosing avoco is good for you and Not that you care You selfish bastard But it's good for the planet. They' certified organic materials that are responsibly sourced irresponsibly sourced, not just willy nilly sourced. responsibly sort and they last longer And if you last longer as a mattress There's less waste Avocado products are made, not manufactured and thoughtfully crafted with real materials Dliver lasting comfort and support. goo to avocadogreenmattress. com slash TwS. cheheck out their mattress and furniture salle Avocadogreenmattress dot com slash twS So we know what it feels like How do we turn off the part of our brain gets upset about sport washing or uh these terrible regimes that are using O joy, our feeling, our empathy against us to ease their own guilt burden utation, FIFA peeace Prize, you know How do we I get angry at myself for not being able to separate I don't I don't think I don't think we should be in. And I think we should be able to carry both thoughts. Yeah. And it's really it's really important too hold these guys to account. I mean Well, that's what you do. I mean, Terry, that you do better than anybody. I mean, that's so much of what you're reporting is. Well because it's really important because we've just spent the last forty eight minutes or I can see the countdown. So about that time talk about how great How great this this this sport is this this u This thing humanity has produced is And the fact that these guys are able to I don't want to use the word govern, but kind of takeake it hostage in a way is something that should not be allowed to pass. There are good people in football. The lack of accountability over the most popular human pastime, this thing that stirs all these emotions, the things that bring all of these politicians or dictators and governments to want to like leave it towards themselves. It' something that is super important. Is anyone there's no there's zero accountability over these people. Well, twenty fifteen really was a moment of accountability. I mean, even for someone like Michelle Pleatini, who is, you know, a legend a Fch a player and a legend being held to account. Absolutely. but you know, you talked about this. That was a huge moment. Yeah. You're seeing you're seeing The most powerful football executives being yanked out of beds at six AM in a luxury Swiss hotel, obviously. and then being and then being taken out perp walked taken to New York and we have the biggest scandal in sports. And here we are ten years later. and The film that I think of every time, when I think of FIFA is terminated too the kind of that that that that villain who couldn't be killed the other the other terminator. T one thousand, I think he was called, where he would just reformulate into exactly the same Rog Roger doesn't know that if it McConaughy's not in it. If Mconaughy's not in it, he doesn't know what's happening. If it's not McConaughy film I'm not interested man. you know I'm trying to by the way, John, I am sitting here trying to think which McConaughy film shows you how to have cognitive dissonance but hold two truths to be evident at the same time. And I realize all of the even the Rom coms do that That's probably true. That ultimly true. But Terry now so like you said, ten years later They've dropped the investigations into FIFA They've stopped in, you know, right now the cozy relationship between FIFA and Trump our Department of Justice has dropped all investigations. Well I was thinking about this and looking at when Trump came in, a couple of things happened I remember being a conference and seeing the news saying The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act isn't something the US care about. So foreign corruption Yeah, we're not we're not into this anymore just to read that headline was pretty stark Well, he also made an announcement that It was okay if companies in America bribe foreign officials. business. I mean, explicitly saying Hey, man, that's just how things are done. So if you need to bribe people yourself out Yeah, it's like a level. the others are doing it. so we're going to be left behind if we don't do this. And then the other thing they said is like kind of This type of white collar crime is not a priority for the DOJ What is the point of these? organizations. So what is the point of the DOJ if you do not want to tackle I think revenge. I think the point of the DOJ. if I'm being clear, I think it's revenge. So Great for great for those guys. Yes, exactly. And, you know, and then you have For me, I've kind of It's been the backdrop of my career basically. I'm And you see All of these people have been arrested and taken away and a new group have come in And sllowly And then very quickly they realized, you know, when you're like, oh, If I cross this line here, will anyone notice? No one has. Right. And then that line gets so far away from where you've started It is a free reange There were things boreought in like term limits. They were like, yeah, we're going to have to have good governance models, term limits All of these guys are bashing through their term limits term limits pererm limits You know, this is this is fantastic. We're just honorable people. Why do we need term limits? You can trust us. I don't the model isn't to cater to fans like Roger or yourself or the teams or the players FIFA is beholden to two hundred and eleven Janian Fantinos other football presidents And what do you do? what do you give them? You give them gifts Right? You give them peace prize, right? Peace prizes to Tump, but also to the football because you wonder who's going to ch? Why is football not asking for change because I'll give you an example just now The day after the opening game in Mexico City, where all of the football world were invited. So Pidents and the senior hierarchies of each of these national federations come to Mexico city Stay in a lovely hotel come to the opening game of the World Cup, and you think, okay, that's great But that's not all you get Then get on a plane. We're going to fly you to Miami five days at the Ritz Carlton in Miami Enjoy guys And guess what Janny Fantino is going to for reelection next year. Just remember that Wh you're here Who supplied all of this Wow. And it rolls on and it rolls on and on. We have more Uncontested elections in football Think about your worst dictatorship. We just don't have a conversation, a debate, all of these things like my phone might have a bunch of whatsApps from upset football execives and I always say, well, why are you telling me this Why don't you just say it because they're all enjoying themselves three hundred thousand dollars a year. For three Zoom meetings It's not bad is it? I'mad but I don't want to stop the gray train There's so much gravy on that train, The tracks are so slick right now. Look, I hate to draw the analogy, but it's not different from the United States Congress, to be quite frank. I mean, it's a group of people who are no longer answerable to the constituents that they purportedly represent. and they're sort of enjoying this separate world you know, that they've created. It's a kind of impenetrable B bow And I wonder, Roger, do you ever, you know, as your going around this world, how do they view you because you're such an asset to especially are not just around the world, but in America to the fans. You're bringing this game and really evangelizing Right? And so I imagine they view you as an asset But I also think they probably know they can't control you So how do they view your platform and what you bring Who's the angel? FIFA the people that control The head of Qatar. Putin I mean you'll have to I mean, God, Putin is I know discord, very active on the men in Blazers discord. What's his username? A Vlad three two threety seven. Vladdy Daddy. It's always Vladdy Daddy Yeah, you know, ultimately I mean, what Tariq's laid out is the cognitive dissonance. It is a It is, how do you get out of bed in the morning, John Stewart? Like how do you function in the morning? How do you do anything Um It's hard and the world is complicated. I think about and have from the very beginning we start off as one podcast. We've grown this thing into a whole network that women's whole women's platform. has a Hispanic platform, VAMOos, three different communities So what I think about is nourishing them. I think about what the game brings to them, what watching together brings to people's life. I think it's Yeah know, Joh John Oliver comes on our show every year. It's my favorite U moment in the year because he's I think about this a lot. work on this a lot And he just kind of breezes in and just does it so much better than I ever could. without baring b And by the way, you don't pay him for that, right? I mean, that's that's not a paid that's not a paid appearance. Oliver Oliver demands huge, huge, yes. private planes We're all to look at him in the eye. He's like that with us. same thing. sppoiled. Yeah he's spoiled. He's difficult And he said he comes on because he just loves football, man loves Liverpool footballer, but do not go that way, Joon Stewart. But every year, every year, you know, the end of the interview, I ask him Ultimately there there's an old cliche in football which has been warmed up a lot by a lot of different people. Football is the most important, least important thing And I always do wonder whether there's a moment in time whether being a football fan because I do I think about fandom, I think about experiences, I think about memories, I think about the shan and football for me has become more important the more challenging everything becomes because it is in all seriousness where even fleeting joy, fleeting sense of deep profound connectivity, a lot of the good stuff can occur. And I do always ask him I might is there a point where it becomes a you know almost like a They're fiddling well while room is burning by watching football and he and he and I will say he's like, well, no one ever talks about whether Nero was a really good fiddler. He's very, very good. I don't think it's bread in circuses always. I don't think it's necessarily government's ways of distracting us while they do the dirty work of what they do I think it's actually a way of people acting out community rather than distraction that it's reminding us that those people are fleeting. You know Chesseie Owens in the in the Munich Olympic, you know, u when when he showed Hitler What was what You know, these are the kinds of things. I've taken a very different view of it. I agree with you, Roger, like There's a certain party where you feel like, o, this shit just doesn't matter It's just stupid think about Lawrence, Kansas Think about how people are responding to learning about different cultures for the very first time. It is unifying and grounding in a really important in a really important way and the more we the more we resist those evil forces co opting that beauty. That that's part of the struggle. I know this sounds ridiculous. I know I am sounding ridiculous couldn't agree. I think I want to be clear. I think it's become more important. I think it's more important than ever sustaining this community take I mean, this is the motto of everything that we do. do not take a second of watching football together for granted. I mean, it is It's become the most powerful thing, this conversation with fans, the sense of feelings, the sense of active u memory making. So that's kind of how I I approach it. you know, I don't I don't spend a second John thinking about what people think about me or Like how am I set It's like's there justs no good energy that comes out of that map. So I'm just trying to focus on I'm trying to But you, do good things for really good people, put a sense of positivity, a sense of joy, sense of activity. There's so many great things that we're watching the Vazinia story It's tenacity. I mean, tenacity is probably the greatest human value, I think. Resilience, yes, yes, yes.. So these are the things that I spend a lot of time thinking about a lot of time trying to articulate a lot of time trying to storytell Um, and that's that's how I approach all of this You know, I was At this game between Jordan and Algeria yesterday here in the Bay Area where this prison cell is And Yeah, that looks like actually a motel three. I don't even think that's a motel six I've got talking to these Jordanian fans outside the teams hotel there And they said, you know We are all over America. It's such a big country We are everywhere and they came from dearborn from New Jersey Uh from from from other parts of California And they said, you know, we've never had a moment ever. where we've all been able to come together This qualification for the World Cup Boy All of these Dparate Jordanians. So this is just one example. There'll be forty seven other examples of this. It's a focus for the diaspora. too San Jose outside the Hilton Hotel where they Chanting and probably running some businessman's Zoom meeting. U while they're waiting for the team to come out. and I just thought it was It was just a very, very interesting and important moment to realize, what else can do that I'm not sure there are many other things that can do this.. And here we are. and we've got a few more weeks of this to enjoy. So let's enjoy it Do you ever look at your phone bill look to your phoneo. Ive looked at my phone I think it's designed to not be able to understand your phone bill, all the writing and the things and the gimmicks. I want to curse To be honest with you, I'm not going to do I generally want to curse, but I'm going to do it about this because there's a solution to this nonsense. Mint You know what I'm talking about? Min moobile, wireless plant. 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Initial plan term only, greater than fifty gigabytes may slow a network is busy, includes up to twenty gigabyte hotspots. capapable device required, Availability, speed and coverage varies seMintMobile. com I really hope they speed that up. What is the final july nineteenth? Is that where we're talking? That's right. So how does this? So let's we're going to move into the knockout round. Let's play out a little bit of who's advancing, where we're going to go. And we'll wrap up with a little, not necessarily speculation but a little predictive, is this very much like the kind of March madness that Americans are used to where you'll get a cinderella here or there, but ultimately by the end, it's the Blue Boods. It's going to be France, it's going to be Spain. It's going to be maybe Netherlands playing remarkably well don't know about Germany right now Godog Argentina How do you guys see this? Where's it going to go? What might be some of the surprises The honest truth is we don't know a lot. Every team's played twice. It's an enormous. It is an ultra marathon this thing. It's a massive bloated tournament There's the Germans have a notion for You don't want to peak too soon. They always believe you want to be attorney and manhaft Like a tournament team that finds their rhythm, finds their way, finds their Wa, what is the name? they have? a tournent? They have a name for everything, John. They really do. I just found out they have a a thing for internal monologue and anxiety called Cop Kino, which is the cinema that plays inside your head. Oh wow, which means like you're lost in your own mind, which I love. Yeah. L McConaughy in your head They have a name for that a Mcongh Fuckenval. Yeah That's me trying to get out of the cop keynote is to invvis your in a Mconughey. but understood. Ultimately teams will reveal themselves and knock out around their true self. first game, you don't really know second game. know ultimately they need to it's like it's like you played and I'm going to lose your younger viewers there used to be a game called punch out where you'd be Mike Tyson fighting, you know better and better opponents. That's what the World Cup is. It's just a game of punch out. until we get to the open water of the knockout rounds. we don't I'm rooting for a U S Cape Verd final It is the joy of this tournament that these nations they're like the Sain. Peters's peacocks, whoever they were in when was it twenty two? bad news bears. Yeah, these teams, everyone Everyone now, you know, they've all had access to not just training and coaching, but the other thing you were talking about diasporas earlier. Tit was talking about fan diasporas and and diasporas coming together and colonialism. L the reality is in Front Paris itself has like seventy three footballers represented. They're not just stocking the French team. They're stocking the Senegalese team, the Moroccan team. Right Germany, the blurring of boundaries in Balagun even in the United States. I mean, they're, you know bless. It's incredible coming from Africa, coming from Europe, coming from Asia. I mean, it's amazing. And so these teams all even the tiny teams have access to true talent pools of footballers that have done far more than if it was truly just a representation of like people who only grew up and play football in in Cape Verd. So it is magnificent. I'm thrilled for the little teams, I will say to see Kate Vird's name on a schoolorebg Spain to see Curacao's name. this must feel if I've never been to either place, but it must feel absolutely just like an epic national achievement, not just sporting, but in their nation's history to see themselves refracted. An epic even in defeat, I can remember it might have been maybe it was two thousand to, when the U. S. Germany. We lost two one Oh, yeah We lost two to one. Okay. so one nill, I think. One nill I think. Oh Cookie, it's your show. Keep going. It's your. All right. I' your story. What does we lost two to one? Joy see it what doesn' even matter? It's your memory doesn't matter. We lost eight to four. Yeah Yeah. I remember that game. I remember that game. what it was actually dominated play for a good portion. of the match. And this was for an American team that had always been defined by its goalkeepers We'd always been defined by, you, we would form the turtle shell and we would have Brazil come at us and take twenty five shots. And if we got out of there with a one noil loss This was the first time I remember watching the American team against what you were talking about, that top shelf world quality and have moments of actual Dominance, possession wise. Everything. There was a German that handled an American shot when it was going in on the line Tsten Frings nameam him him shame him he handled the ball when the ball was going in and the referee did not see it. It's a human agony and it's the closest we've come We would have been in in the semif final and you know, ultimately This is the one place It is something to think about for your listeners. If the American men do become good at football, it will be the end of the game of football for many fans. It would be like when deep blue be be Gary Kaspar of chess. It'll be like they'll be like sod it, the machines of worm. We have nothing to hold over them because right now I want to say this They know like they laugh at us callsccer because they know that we recoil. We're like, oh my God, we not going to call it that. In England, the biggest shows on television are called soccer AM soccer Saturday. They use the word, but they also know that we are so like slightly inferior. We're so superior in so many things or we act like it, but we're very inferior in men's football and the world loves it. Everyone laughs at us they know that we know that they know that we know that we're bad at it. And they love every time. Yeah an American announcer uses the word pitch They take a great they take a great pride in the fact that they are forcing an American into this foreign vernacular that sounds so contrived coming out of our mous. And the Lalis Latan, the Lalis Latan I'm convinced it's a rum compump Alexi Laas andlatan is pro wrestling. It's a symbolic battle for the future of civilization. It's not just about two guys in a studio. Oh God, I don't want either of them to win. Tyon from the sidelines. Yes, that's what we want. We want T the top there. But but John, I have a I have a good feeling for the U.S. I think they're on they're on the good side of the draw if there is a good side. So that There is a chance pathway opens up here. and you know, you mentioned two thousand two I think this tournament has a little bit of the hallmarks of that one Wh Turkey were unfancied. the US were relatively unfancicy. There were teams Senegal. There were teams making runs This tournament reminds me a lot could be a and two and there could be a journey or two for people or teams that we're not thinking about. however I think the final on july the nineteenth will be two heavyweights. I think there's probably no question there. But here's what I will say that we haven't brought up yet And this is not to flatter you both Alliance They have a deep talented Harry Kaine at thirty two years old still shows he has the finishing capability to carry a team. I mean, in this this year in the Bundus League and not to suggest that's anywhere near the Premier League but to have that and in Champions League he had more goals Th then games even so How much football are you watching John Stam? I'm just thinking the same. I'm watching I'm watching it right now Roger, I'm not even actually paying attention to this conversation I'm actually watching through my screen, Siri A That's right. I'm watching whatever Milan team they want to throw at me at this time of day. I'm watching. Do know do you know how many Premier League teams are going to be making offers for you to become a co owner in the of thiss amazing hundred percent. is. I feel like Tk and I just tools for you to buy into to Ballemouth AFC Cherries est West Ham are up for grabs and here comes Joon Stewart. Oh And by the way, Westam what a remarkable little story that's been. Yeahah. I mean, uh the whole thing is I love it. but I also know and this is through Oliver, that nobody breaks your heart like England will break your heart. But I'm telling you this year I see something there Belling him Caine I'm telling you There's something there that's special. And I think if they could put it together, they could be one of those heavyweights standing at the end standing at the end watching Donald Trump hold up the World Cup trope. You know I I'm feeling you I'm feeling your job's it's just it's very hard to it's very hard to say it out loud. This is this is a very very good football.' is a very good football very good football. However I'm not sure The English people are capable of being World Cup winners. I don't know how we're going to handle it So maybe do you know how that you do know how they It won't be good They won't be good. don't think I think do they reoin the EU at that point if they win? did they just go, we're back I think I think this at this moment in time, glorious failures probably Prob the right thing to happen. All right. mean I'm not an England fan, but you do know how I mean I grew up in Liverpool, which considers itself a republic like Monaco or Lieichchtenstein or whatever, like a socialist repepublic. when I was a kid, Liverpool was trying to cede from the rest of England to become a social Rublic, which was just so insane and amazing So like Liverpool people we didn't cheer for England growing up. It was like it was famously like we're in the north. Liverpool was England was like a a sudden symbol and At the same time, just that I felt for them, even though I'm like very much team America now, I felt for them like my dad, the desperation, the hunger, the desire team nineteen sixty six, which felt closer to ten sixty six to me. the desperation it is if anyone listening to lost one knill we should have had them until arrow went into the eye ye all of that all of that, all of that, all of that is fused, the arrow going into the eye, the handing the ball It's the end of emmpire. It is amazing. England if you st this thing, it's like Charlie Brown kicking a football with Lucy holding like something does always go wrong, but John Stewart If England win a worldorld Cup. Now On American Turf in the two hundred fiftieth anniversary of independence. is it is, you know Tit there will be rockets fired out of anenuses that aren't meant to contain rockets that look magnificent all over this nation. And God, I'm much how America's ready I'm much how America is ready for that Du mom. I love it. Gentlemen, I can't tell you the pleasure I have taken in this conversation, I'm loving this tournament. I'm loving both of your coverage of this tournament And just big fans. Roger Bennett founder of Men and Blazers's media network Tari Panja, Global sports correspondent the New York Times Guys. Thankk you so much for being here Oh Thankks for having us. Thank you, Jon. And when when you do buy West Hamp, just just you have a spot in the owner's box, my friend No problem. Tickets, half price. tickets half price. Big, big l. One drink, though, one drink, ticket. That's all. , Thank you guys Guys, I want to I want to thank you both for listening to my men's Ecounter group session I love it. It's great. I really that's out of all the podcasts I think we've done. That's the first one where I think almost all the guests cried or almost cried. And the producers cried. I cried. Yeah. Talking about the families and the My father and the way that he work in class because it really is how it all connects in such a deeper sports, music, they connect on these levels beneath the surface of language and everything else Do you guys are you guys huge sports fans? I'm a really big sports fan. Yeah. You are, yeah. I know you like the Giants, so you know pain. San Francisco Giants, by the way. San Francisco. To be specific. I totally am. I'm like a huge sports fan. Yeah, No, Briden is not.'s not she's not having it. Have you guys been watching at all any of the World Cups everver your fandom hasn't moved into ccer y I always get so into the World Cup. There we. I' that cliche of somebody that's like all of a sudden, every team too. I'm like, this is my team. R Cape Ferd. I love these guys. It's aw. And it's also it reminds you coming off of our N experience. and I know we all shared that in the city but it is There is a mini Nick' experience to be had in the city All the time when you go to these pubs that are showing premier Llyague. I'm not even talking about just World Cup. you can it's You visit these other countries. It's the funniest is when the pubs around the city too with the premiere L it's like eight AM And these guys. They've had a couple.. They' greatest g. I'm convinced that's why they're watching. They blame it on the time difference, but it's really not You go to England. It's eight AM. veryery convenient. No. they were there. And I love how Roger is just like, you know, I'm a sad man. I'm an anxious man, I'm a nervous man But I love foall, you know, like he just lights up. It makes him human and he says. Yeah. it makes the whole thing. And I loved that they said like we need this. We really do. It's actually, I mean, that's why I keep getting getting so misty Wing is like It's we really We do need it becausecause it is, you know, when you think about just the decadence and corruption and inequality and the things spinning out of control and to have something like this that still belongs to the people, whoever owns it, whoever runs it, It still belongs. And it's it reminds you of those moments and I hate to again, like throw them on there, but it reminds you of Hungary Tossing out Orbon. it reminds you of the power that still exists in the population. That's what I love. Yeah it's the unity There's an ad that's been running since like before. the World Cup started. I think it's Airbnb, and I think it's Clire Aaines that's doing the voice for it. But it's like when the world meets and it's like, you needed, you know, Jamaica to bring their sound systems to England to make punk music. And before the world up, I saw that ad and I was like This is so out of touch with like what's going on right now. And now the commercial comes on and I'm like, That's exactly right, Claireine. did that. Thank you, Claireanes. Brittney, who, what do they want to know from us this week? All right team. What do they want What do they want from us Why are soccer players so overly dramatic when they are knocked down or kicked? s it's an excellent question. You know, I was I was a soccer player for many years. there is a layer underneath when when you play soccer, a layer of nerves that go through there. It's like, do you remember the game operation Yes. I'm about it. putut the thing in there and it doesn't seem like much. You just have it's a little, you have yourself a little and you got a bone trying to put the funny bone into where the elbow was And you think to yourself, Well, I just touched that side. I didn't I didn't bang into it. I didn't hurt it. But what what happens? They're not they're not faking We're just we have overly Sensive electrical impulses my favorite ones are the ones that are like clearly on the replay like not even touched. Like they literally just decided like, I didn't even touch the side But it's time for me to do. I'm gonna say three forward rolls Yeah and go on my back as though My lungs have come out of my body. Yeah. It's funny too becausecause sometimes they'll do it and I'll be like, o my Godd. And then they'll show the replay and I'm like, I would be out of commission for six months if this happened to me Like I I get it. It is, I mean Oly dramatic, yes, but there are, as Jillian says like It's a very physical game Yeah, especially the way they play it in like Premier League and all that. like They're not playing the beautiful game of like Spain and Tikki taki and possession. like they're running through people Which version was William and Mary? I played I actually went to the hospital one night after a game, Wait minute we played Old Dominion down at ODU down in Norfolk Virginia was on their field night game And both teams were very U. There was a heated rivalry there. There was u, a fight on the field in the middle of it And I was a forward and one of their backs, I can't remember it was a wing back or center back basically went through me on a contested ball from the goalie. and I didn't think anything of it. And then after the game, I started pissing blood. Oh. And like was in the hospital for a week where like I couldn't move like did you even get a free kick Like o, we certainly got a free kick off the play. and I finished out the game without even realizing it, but like You know, they'll mash your organs. They will mash your organs at the point. That's insane. My back could never. Oh mine couldn't either. I didn't Trust me. Yeah, we're not built for the pinch. It was a bad scene Uh What boy do I miss it? Boy do I miss it Old man, O man Glory Days, for sure. What else they want? What else they want? All right. U John, what advice would you give pro golfers now that heckling is showing up more on the course Great question You have clubs If you're in and let's be honest, let's be fair about this When you talk about heckling showing up in the course in Long Island.. It doesn't golf is played all over the world. The only place it shows up is somewhere outside of Syasset. like, you know, it's only Masapiqua that shows up Get in the fucking hole, you jackass There's nothing that I think, you know, and depending on the size of the Heckler's head that an iron or a wood. I mean, that's really what you have to do. You have to talk to the caddy and just say Is this the type of dude I could take with a putter Or do I need to go full wood? Yeah. so easy to take care of. Not a problem U Very nice. Is that it? Is there any other That's it? Beautiful I can't tell you how much I enjoy talking about sports. this time and that I didn't have to read any fucking books. do this. Normally have to I have to read the books. We're off on the next week, but how can they get in touch with us these people? Twitter, we are Weisha Pod, Instagram, threads