Free Will and Computational Reducibility

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once Try it at progressive. com Regressive casualty insurance and affiliates, Not available in all states and situations, prrices may vary on how you buy. Today, I'm talking with Danny Goher. A few years ago, Danny was on DMT when a being that looked like a frog appeared in his room and taught him guitar chords he didn't know how to play That's when he became sure DMT beings are real. D Anrunaki engineered the human race and built the pyramids. I not even reassigned to remote guil lons What's next conversational Portuguese? New pointint? So he spent years trying to prove it. Eventually, he shined a cheap red laser at the wall and saw symbol. A red laser reveals the source code of reality Every cat on Earth has been chasing at that for decades. And it turns out the vicious little hell beast were breeding human We gott stopem. We could be setting up the planet of of cats. Damn you! Dam you what to hell He calls it the code of reality. Now thousands of strangers have tried it and seen the same code Today we're covering whether reality is a simulation his cosmology and how free will might really work U If this is a simulation, I'd like the lodge complaint. The graphics on my fish bowl haven't gotten a single update since I moved it. complaints go in the circular file And the console, a holographic control panel that opens up in his living room, or any room every time he smokes DMP And other people have seen This console It's wow This conversation gets deep Probably too deep for me. But after we talk I'll come back, I'll break down what I can, I'll verify what I can, and I'll also tell you what I couldn't verify Let's go down to the basement Wh He! Kanny Goolder, welcome to the basement. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor Um, Boy, I don't know where to be it again. Actually I do. I have a lot of questions for you. I'm excited that you're here First What is it like when you're On national television, an American Ninja Warrior and you're jumping for the monkey peg. And and you don't land it. What is that what's going through your mind? Oh, honestly, that one, I didn't feel bad at all because that year, for some weird reason, that first obstacle where you spin with the thing. took out most veterans. So I basically I was one of the finalists. I actually came to Vegas that year. So yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah. So But the funny thing is that later U I I spoke to some climbers and I had no idea. I didn't even train for this thing. And they told me, dude, you need to lock your elbows. And I had no idea. And apparently, you know, locking your elbows is a secret, but I was just hanging for my dear life from the beginning. So I was if you look at that footage, I was holding to like could hold no more. Like my fingers were still holding as I was falling And the one thing that is a little disappointing in that is because the next obstacle was the last one, which was thep wall which for me is back then a our core practitioner for years I could do it in my sleep, likeike with my eyes closed, I could just climb it just by stepping up without even running. I was still one of the finalists, which was fun, so yeah, Ninja Wari was fun. I did it a couple of years You did a couple of years? Yeah. So how do you go from Um, or free rununning filmmaker to exploring reality? mean I took a lot of detours in life. Let's just call it that. I think I was always It sounds very u looaded But I think I think I was born To be a physicist probably, and I just never really completed school But the way that I think and everything that I Fall into my framework of the world. is I'm approaching everything in terms of what we can know and to what degree, which is a very kind of like physicist way of thinking about it And obviously, I'm not placing myself in the same category because what is required to actually be a physicist is way more than just an attitude It's also sitting your ass down for eight years and knowing things beyond, you know, Um, Uh, so It's not really that weird that I find myself in this found myself in this position to me Uh, but everything I did in Hollywood was more like, let's try it. Like everything I did in my life, I did it that way The day before I moved to L.A, from Indiana, by the way Um I suppos to New Yor In a last second I just changed my mind' was like, let's go to LA. I've never been there. And that's and I stayed there for fifteen years basically. So everything I did was kind of like When it felt right, I just kind of went for it Um, and, you know, I've done I was still a very small fish in I didn't do anything like on a major stage. I rub shoulders with people that are very, very successful Um, but it became very clear to me that that whole world glass ceilings that I don't like because I saw like We're not going to mention names. when I met some like actual A listers And I saw how they have to answer people I mean, it's still very impressive to get to where on that level, sureure. But It was very clear to me they're not calling the shots and there's there's always like this like kind of like this is only so far you can go. I don't know why it kind of turned me off from that whole world. so I I just kind of started exploring other things and as faith would have it right around that time I kind of started stumbling into these ideas that eventually led me to what I'm known for today It' I totally agree about Hollywood is the A listers in order to make it to that level and I to tell people this, you have to have a certain type of type A cut throat. kind of mentality, which I didn't have when I was there and There are you're in glass boxes everywhere constantly ansering to people agents and managers That's why this medium is so exciting. is because we can just do it ourselves now. We don't need anybody. Yeah, ye. It's the true freedom. and I think people should exploit it more to be honest. Totally agree.. Um, here's something that surprised me Here's the thing about Bitcoin that took me a while to actually get Owning it on some app doesn't mean much if you can't really access it. 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Cash A is a financial services platform, not a bank, banking services provided by Cash Apps at bank partartners, Bitcoin services provided by Block Inc brand For additional information, see the Bitcoin disclosures at cash. app slash legal slash podcast I loved it And in twenty seventeen Three years before the laser published contemplations of meaning. Wow, you wentn digging. This was just like a tiny thing that I rode for Almost ye, it was for steam, right? Yeah, yeah, I remember now. Yeah, I mean What resonated with me in that essay, which people can go find it's a quick read is how you described creativity as a creative person, how you described it as rediscovering something You're not really creating like it was always there And that kind of resonated with me Is that how you feel? I think we're Yeah, I think we're coming back to remembrance and One time we me and my wife, we went hiking in the roockies and we thout the whole hike we were thinking about We're basically imagining ourselves in real time as God remembering what it was like when God still, you know, was like all these like different paths that led to it, basically And I was like, what if it's actually what's happening? Like we are one of these memories the gun has of whatever reality is And it put a different emphasis on everything. Everything was more shiny. Ething was more meaningful and deep U And also I think our connection grew from that from that interaction. We just started dating back then So I think there's something to that. I think that Ultimately, reality rediscovers itself. But on the other hand, I'm tootally on board and I also like the idea that maybe cutting edge of what is possible in the universe as a surprise to it as it is to the knowode that it registers that experience like ourselves. That's a pretty cool thought as well. Like if you had a novel thought What if the universe never thought of it either? Like it thought it through you There's some there's a deep connection There is. I hadn't considered that. That's really interesting. I don't know if you know Eric Wargrove's work, but he's very influential on me. I recommend Time loooops is a great book. you'd love this guy. And he talks about creativity as Your future self sending memories esssentially back through time. remembering is creativity That's amazing. Yeah, there's there's something about as a creative person yourself,s that's why it resonates, I feel like, because the experience of coming up with these creative things is very unique And it's not like anything else It has a feeling attached to it that that when you have it, you know it, but it's very hard to put your finger on it because it has this like sense of novelty. which is, you know,, If you want, we can always get into it in the conversation. But like that to me actually is what separates what AIs are doing, what we're doing. To my mind, actually, what we do is that, that's the central point It will always require This kind of an agent like ourselves to have this first initial creative moment And then you can use AIs to actually move it way faster along the chain of, you know Does it hold water result in some kind of an automation or something, like what results it can bring in the world? So you can accelerate that process, but that first initial creative moment There's something very unique about it because I do think it comes from some kind of a Eernal soup of everything basically. Now I have to go off off scripture. I have to go off scripture because I really like that. So AI Predictive models, LMs as they stand now really can't be creative because they're trained on Stuff that's already been invented. So it's nothing new under the sun. Is he ask theses one nine Do you think AI will get to the point where it can? Be creative The candas is it sentient I don't think so, but I'm willing to be wrong about it. So this famous moment between David Deutsche and Sam Altman when he asks Deutsch about This conviction that he has, which is along the lines of what you justoiced and I belong to the same camp. So he basically Sam asked him, wouldould you be surprised? Would you be willing to concede, I think he said that if it comes up with some kind of a theoretical framework that we really haven't considered before. Will it convince you that and Deutsche concedered, Yeahah, of course So I'm in the same camp. If it does something like that, I'm willing to be wrong about it But my intuition is that which is part of a much deeper awareness that I came to, which is that we are that AGI. So this is what this is. This simulation is the alignment happening. so we're being aligned basically. And these AIs, they basically internal tools your reflections of what's possible for us So you can ask it to just answer your emails, but you're missing the point you you can U it too interact with the infinite tapestries of meaning within you faster And in a way that builds a much more coherent picture as a whole. so you can, you know if you If you come up with the right questions, You can actually get to places with it that you couldn't have possibly come without it because you simply don't have the you don't have the capacity, right But because it is just, as you very correctly said, I think, it is just the totality of everything that humans currently know. You now at your disposal In addition to your thought and ideation, you have everything that humans know. You just have to know where it look, so to speak, right? Right. Yeah. so that to me is the exciting part withith the full admission that if we misuse it and just keep doing it like a Do this for me, do that for me. then yeah, then you're going to get dumber. Like you actually don't But that would be the indicator of what you are. So like, Because it is the perfect mirror for us People always said, Ohh, if I can't just get that jiny in a bottle Here it is That's literally the geninnie in the bottle. like anything you want, anything But you got it Final frontier is your imagination And most people don't realize that if you get ce bllanche to do anything That's actually the hardest position to find yourself in ure what question to ask the genie is hard. Yeah. Some of limitations is actually nice When somebody gives you some prerequisites of the game It's actually very relieving and people don't realize it. It I've been I've voiced it a few times recently, but I think it's a really good It was kind of mind blowing to me like the illustration was so simple. It was when Jordan Peterson was on Joe Rogan demonstrated it to him in real time. He basically told Joe your turn And obviously Joe Froze, so obviously he was playing a bit of a stick But he was effective. He said, your turn. And then Joe just looked at him like, Why we what are we doing? This is stupid, right Uh he didn't say anything, but that was his face And then he's like, what, okay, what what like, okay, just tell me basically Joe is, o I got it. justust tell me the thing And then Jordan goes, well, it's interesting I just allowed you to play the infinite game Your turn And yet the first thing your brain is doing is looking for the rules You want me to tell you what are we doing, right? So he said, The number of rules for ultimate freedom is not zero I thought it was very profound. I think there's something there. So it's almost like it's trying to teach us how be less and less constraint constrained by different factors and still come up with something creative to do next. That's really what is being tested here, I think ' that's high into your T game theory about puzzle vers the finite vers, the infinite The finite versus the infinite, the collaborative versus the competitive. ye They're basically the same thing. So like if you It expresses itself So the infinite has to be expressed in games that can survive for longer periods of time And my proposition is that compometitive game is awesome Very energizing But it's energizing in small bursts. That's the finite game. Exactly. You are within a closed set, That game makes sense withithin an open set, That game stops making sense because you have to rely because part of the first game, the competitive game, Part of it, sometimes part of the game is trying to eliminate other agents and just throw themem off the board You can't trust that for thousands of years. No. But if you are part of a species that is energized and is excited by collaborative prospect just for the sake of that. Justs like, oh my Godd, I'm going show up this morning. I'm going to work with these amazing people. We're going to build this. insane structure in space or go to another planet. Yeah, it's going to take two thousand years, but we're working towards it, right? So that If that's the attitude that is that is pumping through the veins of a civilization of that kind. then all of a sudden you can trust the game and you can trust it indefinitely And I also think this is why theseese concepts of alignment have to include that part, which is why kind of, you know, ethics and all of these kind of like the Ten commommandments, like just the moral framework is so important because The way we're trying to solve the alignment problem currently in AI research is that we're basically trying to say I call it infinite u ethical wackamo. Well, let me slow you down. S the alignment problem just to find that for the audience. Yeah, so so in AI research there iss something called the alignment problem, which is basically how do you make sure that Flaud or ChanGPT donon't just squash us when they become Skynet, right? Right Um And then the way they're trying to go about it is that ethical whackama I'm mentioning, which is like you just you try to target a specific situation The reason it's not sustainable and not realistic to solve that way because just like with the Jinny in the bottle. If you solve this thing Three other things that you didn't foresee because of it will pop up and that' be a problem, right The reality of it is that in an infinite Universe, all intents and purposes, you have infinite kinds of scenarios that can arise And you can't possibly predict all of them So the only thing you can rely on is you need to create some kind of a framework or a system or a simulation trains becausecause the definition of a good person is someone who to the best of their ability, considers more than just themselves in that particular situation. They just think, the extent to which they include more and more than just their own agency I would define them as better and better people, right? Because you can trust that kind of attitude what you essentially asking isn't like How can I think of all the possible scenarios that can go wrong and solve them in advance? That's impossible? How do you create an agent that cares enough actually be an awareness of how these things can go wrong and then try and steer the other way, right? Not just for themselves but for others Everyone's watching the economy and waiting for things to stabilize Here's the problem They've been saying that for years thirty nine trillion in debt another trillion added every few weeks And your dollar is quietly losing ground every single month So let's look at what's actually been working Over the past year, gold is up around thirty five percent. Silver is up one hundred and twenty five percent The stock market around twenty seven percent That's not a fluke, that's a pattern. 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So I think that's essentially the kind of suluation we're in. and all of a sudden, all of these, you know the I guess religious and spiritual ideas all of sudden makes sense. Like, yeah, like If you don't pass that alignment problem, you don't become You don't reformulate yourself as the whole We're all want and all that stuff and you don't actually get to play the bigger game. And there's stages to this. Like even within our universe, I think that the reason that The distances between stars are so enormous is exactly for this reason that even before you get to play in some multid dimensional game or whatever Even just in our physical universe is like, here's all this real estate that you can see How do you get there? And right now, We're only thinking about it in terms of technical problems What I don't think we realize that in order to actually solve that You can't just solve the technical problem also have to solve the interpersonal problem because that would allow you to step into the collaborative game But not in a performative sappy kind of way, but in a real way And then all of a sudden kinds of technology is required to do that would probably be a piece of cake because even the ideation would be collaborative.. And I think that's when the mind, this is where all this kind of unification goes You can't get there unless you're willing to unify. If you're acting out of fear, out of lack Again, all of these like very kind of like chewed up spiritual concepts are float around now They're true. Like if you don't get there, you simply don't get to play that bigger game. Totally get it.. And I think I think AI is going to help us with that. And a little bit later, I want to talk to you about u, you're thoughts and theories on cosmology Before we get there Um Born in Moscow Raised in Israel, served in the military in LA We're thinking about New York Indiana Indiana, LA. So when someone asks you where you're from, what do you say? America. There's actually never it's weird because I never felt like I belonged and I never really felt a sense of home or even the feeling of Just like being a part of anything Uh I wasn't I definitely had issues with authority, but it wasn't to an extent of like you know, rebellion, you know on like very extreme levels. I did get in trouble with the law a little bit when I was younger for sure, but like it wasn't like on you know, on like crazy levels America was the first place ever But I remember when I became an actual citizen when I actually became an American and got naturalized I don't remember the last time I felt so much ellation Really? Yeah. Yeah. so so it is a little painful for me to watch how many Americans don't like this country, because maybe because I had to make an effort to be here U there's nothing that I'm more proud to be a part of and more proud to call myself than in America whichich is something that is not very it's not trending right now, but that's a real feeling in me sore It's trending with me. I didn't expect you to say that. Yeah I I thought we were going to go back I thought you were going to say Israel That's really nice that you consider yourself an American No sorry I'm cutting you off. That's important for me to say. So like for the obvious reasons with everything that's going on right now It's kind of you know, It's very painful to watch because of the amount of lies that I see being propagated online. Y For fairness, there's a reason why I left Israel It wasn't the reason that most people would hate Israel currently think that it is because it isn't almost none of those things. But there is some cultural things that I't dive with. L there's just just I don't feel like I belong to that kind of way of seeing things. Can you give an example without Yeah, people people are definitely very rude very often. There's this kind of like u Bravado that you can say that is arising from the stress of the situation of being that in that position? That makes sense. whichich I can understand. Um you're always always on edge. Always on edge. U in actually it's such a difficult thing to outline because you kind of have to be there to understand it. There's nuances there. But there is a lot of aggression towards one another And this is where it's kind of like gets very dicey because de agression The aggression is not of the bloodthirsty kind that people kind of imagine, right? It's like a very kind of like interpersonal low key thing that does can getet a lot like on a personal level At the same time somehow the reverence for life and helping each other and helping even people that are you know you sometimes consider enemies is unparalleled. Like literally it doesn't exist anywhere else in the world And that's a very difficult thing to outline So I usually stay away from this part of the conversation because I see that the emotional charge around it It's just too great for people to be able to absorb any real information about it Um, but The one? That's true So but for me,'m, you know, I'm hopeful about the world because I do think that Ultimately The only thing we can do is the best from where we're sitting right now So me worrying about like what is the ultimate state of affairs, it's kind of like worthless because there's nothing I can do about certain things in the little pockets that I do occupy in my day to day I try to do my best to promote the kind of behavior that I would love to see in others. do everything I can that none of it is performative That's really important. Very often people a certain way. without being that way. And I think that is one of the more corrosive parts of how we do things today. becausecause online, everything is so, you know, inviting the performance part of it. But I think that there is a way to drop more into the present moment and the body and the one on one. to see what it actually is like just truly care about the immediate experience with another human So let me ask you Yeah, because and researching your work, I see Duality in you and tension everywhere Um in a good way, in a good way. No, I know. in a good way You talk about performance You're an actor, filmmaker all of that Do you ever find yourself This is not a stnarky question because I'm also an actor Do you ever find yourself in a performance and you have to kind of Cck yourself Dial it back. No, not anymore. Not anymore, but you used to U I think to any degree that the thing is that So the thing that needs to be outlined here is that everybody Does it to certain degrees they're not aware of. Yes. And only when you do become aware of it, it became clear to that you were performing So to the extent that I can observe in myself, Uh And meditation had a big part of it is because it's easier to actually you practice how to actually notice yourself to deeper and deeper degrees Um There's a certain flow. flow state that is associated with actually just being here truly. and willing to Air out your thoughts truthfully in that moment, even if it comes off the wrong way. And the more you practice to do that and trust it It doesn't always go well, by the way But the more you do that and you realize, oh, I was not demolished by this the easier it is to do And that's the tool that I've found that is the most effective. So very often I would like come up with a Um Let me think of if I can think of an example Well, here's the thing. like for example, that example is a little broad, but but everybody can associate with this Very often in a conversation, it all of a sudden bec becomes clear to you like what how you can potentially either omit certain information or just do the conversation in your favor not even in ways that are conniving or like it's just like I don't have to go there and I just won't. but at the same time you know that maybe the other person would actually benefit from going there. If I assessed inside of myself before I wouldn't enter that part because why do I need to bother? R, right Now I will Now you will. Yeah. If I feel like it truly is and I don't necessarily want to spend the energy all the time, obviously I have to assess what I have that energy. but if I feel that truly the person would benefit from this Even though I have no idea how we're going to navigate this What I'm going to do is I'm just going to burn the boats I'm going to say it right away. Before I have the time to like assess like should we, should we not? I'll just say it And then you're here now. Now you have to talk about it. And then so things like this. And then and then eventually Over time, it became clear to me what is the truly beneficial a lot of these instances So to the extent that I can muster in that moment I am trying to be a good person in the same definition I used before. tryrying to consider more than just myself in that moment Like and I don't even care if the person will understand that that's what's happening I know that I know that that's what I was doing. uh, and then if it goes in the wrong direction, then you learn from that. you say, Ohh, interesting. Okaykay, well Maybe not always bringing everything el L and then you just keep dialing it in But it is It does imply more more emotional pain sometimes than you necessarily have to G through. Well, yeah, what would interactions be like if everyone did this I think a lot better. You do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not talking about just like saying the thing It has to also come with an understanding of what the person is. It takes some practice People who say things like, well, I'm just being real. like, well, no, because the other part of being real is also considering trying to discern the person's readiness to hear certain things And if if you've done none of the work to try and figure it out, it's not their job all of suen to all of a sudden handle certain levels of understanding if they never even thought about that. Now you just shattered their world, right? So You did You didn't do any service for no one. Like you just felt like It was for you. You wanted to feel a certain way. That's right. And this is and this is why it's such a it's such a difficult. So this it's a very difficult ground to walk on because The truth of it is truly just in the moment whichich sounds, you know, super kind of cheesy, but it's true. L it really is just in that moment. and in no other moment The truth about whatever this exact moment would look like with a slightly different person in a slightly different time can be radically different. sureure because of whatever exactly in that moment. not just you know, in the grander scheme of things So it is I would consider it to some degree an art Uh, and I think some People are naturally better at it than others. I was definitely not good at it. got I think I had some disabilities of I don't know if disabilility is right workd, but I had some tilt to my cognition in such a way that I would I would constantly step on someone's toes without realizing something would go wrong in a social setting and I wouldn't understand what just happened. I'm not good at this. Yeah. I'm not I'm not good at this. Yeah. And then I learned that that if I can just put my honest best foot forward, Somehow things started working differently, and I noticed it. I noticed like people relax Why did they relax? What happened? I think there's something very deep inside of us that recognizes predatorial attitudes And sometimes people don't even realize that they carry predatorial attitudes So for example, I had a case where I grew up And I had a pretty like childhood was not very It was fine. likeike I wasn't like, you know There was definitely some stuff that people would nowadays call like things reasons for trauma But nothing on a level of like your parents being addicted to heroin or anything like that. But there's definitely a lot of pain that came from some things in the childhood that then later I saw were translating to a very aggressive attitude towards others which was just a defense mechanism because I realized the second you go violent, people respect and then they just back off Yeahep, right So then that was my safe space And then one day a really good friend of mine who I've now known for thirty years pulled me to the side one time because we had to do we were working in the same company And he basically pulled me aside and he said, Hey, man, I just I have to bring it to your attention. when you talk to people They're literally afraid of you. And that hurt me so deeply because That's the it's such an isolating, especially when you knowre not trying to be if you're trying to be a moster, that's a great thing if somebody tells you that right? It's like, oh, good But I was so I was trying to connect. So imagine you trying your best to connect with people and what comes out of it because I was basically talking to them like that, you know, and it was like this very kind of like Just I'm watching you. It was a lot of that, right? But for me was I didn't feel like I was doing that So I imagine what a shock that was to hear that you must have really trusted him I mean you made a life change there Yeah, I mean it was it was very hurtful. It was very painful, but he did me a huge solid. and and I realized, oh wow. Okaykay. so that and it was it was right before I really entered any real serious spiritual seeking. Back then, it was very clear to me that any spiritual attempt is just like it's for the week. you know, it's just people just they can't handle the finality of life. all that jazz, right Um And then that's right before I I think the first entry was actually Eckhart Toi. It was right before kind of like I read a newew Eth. And then I was like Wow, this actually makes a lot of sense. like in a very simple way, right? And then I started looking there and then I remember you telling a story somewhere where you were gifted an A Ter book and you were kind of annoyed by it. Yeah It's this is nonsense. It was a woman I was seeing Um And, you know pretty girl gifts you something you take it, but that was begrudgingly took it And I just threw it on the, you know, I was like, okay. I felt the same way about totally until I read it and I was like Holy shit. Holy shit. Yeahah. he's right. It's all And then I went on on a crazy ride finding out who he was because it's so important for me who's speaking the words you can say so much about the person, which by the way, speaking about all the stuff that not specifically but like really anything in the world that people are watching, I know it's really hard to kind of follow big events. Follow the people. Watch the people. You can say so much, you can see so much by the micro expressions of the people involved in saying the thing. And you can still stray, you can still have like a person who' actually really well intentioned and just they just D don't know how to express themselves well But for the most part, you can see, you can see if there's like an actual attempt to harm. There's there's a thing there. If you look closely, you can see that It's hard to not project. But anyways, I digress that that part was so key for me when I was watching Eckhart becausecause after I read the book I was like, okay, hold on, let me find out. I started watching interviews with him. I mean, it's I mean, Eckhard is just like, is like a holy person, you know what I mean? It's like you watch that person he's like, oh come on. this is ridiculous. His audioobooks are amazing. Yeah. So there's this calm and peace and love and you can feel it. So I was like, Ohh my God, this is And I had a struggle for years. I was like Yeah, but I want I want this like I want I won nice things. I won pretty girls. I won I won that. That exactly. But but back then it was I was in my twenties so I was still kind of like finding my, you know, what does that mean? If you're spiritual, it means you can't do this or you can't do that. And over time, you start to understand, of course, that's totally okay. and you just and you just find your rhythm. What message do you think she was trying to send to you She was trying to tell you something by giving you that book. I think she was influenced by his first book and she gifted me the second. I think that's what happened Maybe who knows? Yeahah. likeike I never you know, it's funny till this day, I never thought about that. would you just ask me It is super interesting I can probably reach out and ask That's interesting Yeahah, she did you a great service. Yeah I want to know about conversations around the kitchen table with your grandfather's a physicist, your grandmother She was a chemist and then spirituality Uh yeah, she was a Christian, but I always say she wasn't one of these like u zealous Christian. She was a very spiritual Christian. She was one of these people that I found out only later conversation with my mom that she she had these like weird abilities like she could, you know, somebody would come with a assist and she would like put her hand around it and it would go away in a couple of days, things like this. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what my mom told me, so yeah Um But yeah, basically I was raised by them because when I was born, my mom was still going to school And uh My grandfather started describing to me like black holes and these things since I was very little And I don't know who came what came first, my predispensation to imagine the edges of the universe all the time or him telling me things about it or the other way around But it was very like that image. Like if we go all the way to the edge of the universe Okay, what's What's outside of that? Like what is it? I literally projected myself there almost physically. All the time it was just like You can crack it. L if you step outside, what do I see? It's like, you know, it's like what is that? What does outside mean? Um These ideas were, I couldn't I could never find any trajectory of thought There was more worth of my attention. like never And I think that's the thing that followed me throughout my life. withith all my experiments and doing things and I just I think I was hungry to understand what life has to offer When I found psychedelics, obviously was a big revelation because I realized, oh Okay, so you can actually change like quite substantially But then this is why I think I tried so many different things in life to see what what lands and what it actually feels like to experience lie through that lens I occupied very different phhilosophical positions in terms of how much I'm convinced that that's what it is And it's only when you go through these levels of convictions that you truly understand what it's like to hold that position Be there's everything changes. your lens, your mannerisms, the way you talk to people, all of it, it's all Well, Stereance McKenney used to say it's all operating systems. And it's completely true. Like you can you can now that I'm older When you find the stability inside, you can actually just interplay and you can just change them without identifying with any of them. So it's actually relatively easy for me to understand how people come at the Wl from this other position And I think a big proportion of that was actually Even though it sounds like two completely different worlds and they have nothing to do with one another, physics and human experience But to me, it was clear that whatever that is had to have some deep connection to how it's possible to experience it. I didn't have, you know, the granularity in terms of like Is it the same thing or something like that? But it was very clear to me that there's like a strong relationship there Pilosophy and physics are really connected. Yeah. and some physicists would disagree with this, which I think is I think most wouldre It's egregious that they would. It's just, you know I don't know if you're familiar with the T podcast, Theories of everything podcast with Kurt Jai Mungle, phenomenal. And I think he put the right emphasis on it. when he says like Physicists can't help but being informed by philosophy all the time. They just don't realize it it's absolutely true. Yeah Absolutely true. interesteresting that you said that you wanted to solve what was outside the universe. Talk a little bit about When you were a UFO kid and you went down the Boblizarre rabbit hole and disillusionment with disclosure As a tiny side note, you know my whole stick with forty two, right? That it follows me everywhere? The number forty two. trackers guy to the galaxy? Yes You can't see it from your angle probably in the same way Right in this camera. Are you kidding me? No Filt your head to the right to the right L here like this Do you see the handle of the camera? Yes. undernder the handle Keep going right with your head. Oh my goodness. forty two. It's framed and there's nothing. L lookook, I'll take a picture of it Oh my god, it's on my list It's on my list that look Ohh my God, it's lookook at this I'll show you exactly how it appears for me L look at this Um Synchronicities are a real thing. It never stops. Last week I was having synchronicities for like two or three straight days, so many that even my wife is nervous. I'm like, lookook, the simulation is busy right now. Things are happening. Something. I said I feel like something's going on. sorry, I'm taking in so many sight dangons. You you know what happened to me when I landed here yesterday? I get in the car in the Uber from the airport And all of a sudden the theme, not the opening music of the matrix starts playing like that thing was like And thats, what? no, As I put my butt down And then I'm like, Where is it playing? And then I realize I still my headphones in? say in my phone, but then my phone is O lock screen Somehow I did not do this Opened YouTube It went you know how they have the free movies sometimes? Yeah. It found the matrix which was free that day, yesterday. and it started playing it right when I said and was like this is wild. It's wild When you look for it it's everywhere. But I wasn't looking for it. It' just I found you. The matrix, like what I can't believe forty two is right over my shoulder there ramed Perfect Flamed Yeah Oh goodness Sorry, I threw you off of the No No, it's super fun. Yeah, dis disclosure, disillusionment I want your thoughts in that Dillusionment. Oh with Babl Aazar and the whole thing. Yeah, basically I made a very conscious choice. You know, I was obviously fascinated. I always wanted to be abducted. You wanted to be. Oh, I wanted to be abductors. No, you don't. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I could not wait. I said if they take me one way, I can't wait to go. Like I wanted to see another world. how weird it is would be worth anything. It's just like I just wanted to see that, right Um Well I mean, obviously you know Andrew Galmore very well. He was here just a few days ago. Yeah He makes a good argument that abductions are just Possibly an endogenous DMT experience. Possible. I don't see might have been I personally don't find similarities between the reports of the DMT and what they are. I don't either. Yeah. I think they don't sound or look at all the same Um, but again, who knows, right? Like ultimately, who knows And even if they were as a kid, I knew nothing about that. All I knew is that I want to go to another planet and that sounded like a legitimate way to do that if that's real, right So when the Bbbleles our story came out Obviously just like everybody. he captured my imagination And by the way, to anybody who's a little younger today, what you might not understand is that back then that we're not There was no social media or like a billion stories like that. No. There was one. It was one. So it was just this like object of interest for basically everybody. Yeah, I have children just still remembering the first time you saw him in shadow talking about stuff. It was insane. Yeah. And I was a kid Probably sixteen or something like that. Yeah, that was like eighty three or something like that. Oh no, eighty three is when it happened? So no I eight. Yeah, yeah, no, no, no. I heard about it in the nineties. I was already going through kind of like a refurbished version of it probably. No, no, I wasorn in eighty three So then u, So anyways, I was, you know obbviously fascinated But then as time went by and I got older Part of that philosophical swing was very much from this like very wonder filled kind of attitude towards life to like eh Things are what they are Probably just the physical universe, that kind of stuff, right But not in a not in a like a magic dissolving way, but just kind of like The univerversse of the universe, it's all good. like, it's amazing. that was the attitude, right And then I remember in twenty twelve because of all of these like what I call around the cornerism, which is like, it's coming. It's coming. It's been like this basically since the beginning. Yeah we're still there. Yeah. And as long as it's coming, you can sell books, you can sell movies. Yeah. And I'm not even speaking out of his cynical position All the power to you, capapitalism great, go go make money. It's all good. But if you're purposefully holding it, in that realm Then you're not a good person then you're actually doing something that is just for your benefit, right If the thing is there and you're not creating it and you making money on top of it, great If you're keeping the thing alive to make money, that's a different story. And again, I don't even do the whole like finger pointing and blaming. I'm just like, I just disengage.ust like I just don't care about that kind of a way of being. right As soon as I see that you have a book out I don't know how trust. So I feel you, but I'm like, I'm not in that camp. If somebody writes a really interesting book about something that truly is there and we don't understand, that's all great. And I have no problem with people making money. People work hard, writing a book is not an easy thing. It's all good It's the keeping the mystery alive when you know it's no longer a mystery or at least you have enough information to know it's not a mystery. I'm saying isn't. I'm saying if that's your attitude, right U So there was something about that. there was a dissolution with that kind of way of doing things. And I just didn't have any more energy for it. So I decided very consciously beforefore december twenty first, twenty twelve If the Mind calendar amounts to exactly nothing right on time I'm just going to stop with this whole, not just aliens, just everything. I'm just done. I don't care. like I just don't care. Like I don't engage with that part of the human thought anymore And that's what I did. Of course, nothing happened And then I just stopped interacting with it Um, you just turn to turn the switch Yeah, it's done It was just enough. It was just enough. It's like how many arguments do you need to have in a relationship before you go? Okaykay I don't want this anym And it wasn't an argument, but it was a Paul intents and purposose is a thing to kind of polds you by your nose infinitely And there's just more important things in life, you know? I was interested in what in fact is true And that is what I'm interested in today So I stopped interacting with it altogether and this is why When the things that started happening to me start happening to me with DMT and all that stuff. That was coming in contact with for intents and purposes, the real thing, at least for me. like oh, you can actually interact with these beings and whomever they are and they're actually alien They don't look like humumanoids, they Straight up look like aliens, feel like aliens It's such a different universe, which is what you would expect an alien to be, right So then I, you know, that that took me on a completely different ride into something that I could actually put my I put I could put some stock in it I had direct access to it It wasn't a thing in the news or a formulated narrative. It was like, o, I can just go and see it. and then I can decide for myself, what do I think that is? But That was so different than the kind of Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but like this For me, its just like a very caricature version of, you know, this whole thing is it's just it's too close to how humans would imagine it You see what I'm saying? I do. Yeah Um Disengaging was a great idea. By the way, in fifteen years you haven't missed anything Nothing's happened. I think people are surprised by this is that This came F So before DMT You did. He Pasana No, the MT I did first. You did first, but I did the Pasana and then started doing it. And I think the second or third retreat I came back. and that extra thing happened to me. So it all of a sudden change the trajectory of the emT for me. Did you do the full ten days? Yeah, yeah. You have to do the ten days the first time What is that just like? People don't know how this is. Amazing. I could not recommend something more It's available everywhere. It's free. I mean it's donation basedook like who doesn't have a few bucks to spare right? It's like, what is it It's the closest It's the closest meditative framework to what the Buddha actually taught It's very there's not a lot of talk about anything metaphysical, It's just the practice itself The shortest way of describing it is essentially you practicing how to utilize your attention in order to purify your mind and when mind is expressed here, the What is meant is the totality of everything that is possible to experience. We're not separating Mind is not meant cerebral. It's just mind, just experience, right? So then basically you sit there You learn how to hold attention for the first three days by using a meditative practice called Anapana. which is just paying attention to your breath, which is very difficult to do. And when you manage to do that for three days well enough, you then utilize the point of attention you've harnessed then scan your body in a particular way And nobody really knows why that works But we know from actual research that it does. like we actually see that people's brains actually change. Yes. And I can tell you that without a doubt, this is probably the one single best thing I've ever done in terms of like helping myself, it really is a form of superpower when you get to a certain level of being able to do it. And I'm not even on a high level. likeike you don't have to be some kind of a master. It's just the ability to disengage a little bit from whatever turmoil is happening Oh, the cameraas moving, I was like whatever whver whatever is happening in in real time And sometimes it's still hard to do, obviously, but it is an incredible this that I would recommend anybody try. becausecause that's where you really put your finger on what it's like to be you moment to moment. And when you do this every single day for ten days, the whole day you find out quite a bit about not just your psychology, but you find out about what's possible in terms of experience, you feel like you've been given a completely new operating system. You know what's funny, when you get your phone back as you give your phone away This is just a very interesting data point for me Not a little bit, not a little bit a lot. you I don't want to put you on the spot like, haveave you ever done mushrooms or you can't answer Okay. I'm experienced. Okay, okay, I'm just making sure that yeah, yeah. So you know how screens look kind of Extra digital, whatateveres. That's what a phone looks like when you get it back It does, yes. It's really interesting. L you let in. What stuff What? Like it literally looks digitalized like this, like you see it on acid or on mushrooms I think what it is, the first one that I did, I realize it's I spoke about this before. basasically I realizeed it's actually a bandwidth problem So basically the the according to the bx know what's actually happening every single wouldould we call mental event is not separate from a physical event in order for it to be alive somethingomet in your body has to register it. evenven what you call your thoughts.. This is why when you get stressed, you need the massage, right? Be your your shoulder dance up. So that's one example of that Well, The bigger the impact of whatever that was, the mental event, the stronger the instantiation in the body and traumas deep rooted somewhere in the body and they're probably the rise of like a lot of pain, sometimes even cancer probably Um And what what essentially the idea is is that What we do in the Western world, we create the severing So like when the mental event is present, we feel terrible. If we take our minds away from it, Solved when I have to think about it. I can go watch a movie, I can drown myself in whatever in work But the reality of it is that whatever that was, it's now in your body somewhere and you're just ignoring it, basically. So what I realized and basically what you're doing with Vapastan is you just allow yourself to sit in neutrality and you allow these things to percolate up And at first a little Th comes out like the itches, the scratches, things like this, they're bolts and cars And then after about two or three days, they just stop. stop. There's just no more itches. There's no more nothing And then the bigger ones come in pains that you've just I guess didn't even realize we're there. So one of these pains happened to me in one of the days that they taught the Pasanown on the fourth day, I think and this crazy pain in my knee came. It was as bad as somebody carving a knife into my knee But I was already in a state of kind of neutrality where Your brain is no longer defining it as pain. At that point it's just a very strong sensation. It's just like a very and you can just kind of sit with it. You just observe it. You know just observe it, you don't touch it.ight Wh which is the practice, by the way But then after you do that, it's almost like a child that just wanted to show you a drawing. So when it showed you the drawing And again, we don't quite know why that works from a scientific perspective, but it works. After it showed you the drawing and you looked, after the child noticed you did look Okay, you looked at me, I got my attention. It just goes away It's done. it's no longer there. and then After I came out from that fromr that the reason that I noticed that it's a bandwidth problem is because of that one session. because when I stepped outside Every it' was it's like I was on four hundred mices of acid. Everything was shining. Everything was shining and glistening and blissful and filled with meaning. and I was like, o my God, it was just Srenity and peace. I know this feeling. And I go This is why people devote their lives to this. Yes. And then I realiz, Oh, think about it from a computational perspective, something in me evenven though I wasn't consciously aware, it was had to keep this alive. So when it was gone and because it was big That much bandwidth is now free Yeah. So look at colors and meaning and everything. So it's like, a wow. So like That's when I realized Oh, this is like a science. this is like, It's not like feele good, kind of no, no. I don't it. I bet the same parts of the brain are lighting up. meditation and psychedelics, but it's the parts of brain that light up The reduction of the DMN is similar. So Richard Davidon did a lot of studies on this and then he discovered he added pilocybin later actually, way, way later in his b career But he found that yeah, the default mode network goes yeah almost dormant U but mushrooms also do extra things. So there's like other things like the pyrotechnics is not something that you necessarily have to experience with meditation, peace and everything, yeah, the deeper meaning Let's let's take a quick break and when we come back, we'll go to the Infamous Kight in Boulder. Let's do it Let's talk about DMT Let's do it Here's a disclaimer. We're not promoting condoning or endorsing the use of ant psychedelics they're dangerous. Be careful Speaking from personal experience, both of us I've done all of these as well. It's funny to watch You on podcast where someone's like, describe the DMT experience. you're like I can't because you can't You can't you really you really do go somewhere else. So Yka became famous for this laser experiment And we know the story But I want to know What made you just Why did you shine a laser at the wall? I would never think of that. I think most people wouldn't and I don't even know if I would necessarily manage to grock that unless all the right things would happen and I would be paying attention Um It was a It was a years long process I was aiming it ' basically asking the question Can we prove that the DMT space is real? That was it And then everything else is just like the busy work of how it happened. So this was like an experiment Yeah, I tri all kinds of things. So basically I had an experience on DMT after already being very versed in it For years. And then something happened and I had this like now famous story with the Frog guy who apparently became like a thing that people really want to know more about and I know almost nothing about. But basically I had a being appear in my room as real as a person, looking like a frog showed me how to play certain chords in a guitar that I did not know how to do Now, aside from the fact that this is a pretty awesome, you know, experience What was key there is that he was showing me chords I do not know how to play. So he was essentially saying, I'm real, you don't know how to do this. I'm giving you information. Then I knew at least for me, obviously I couldn't prove it to anyone It was clear to me that nothing will ever be the same again Be at least I knew that one person now knows for a fact that they are real And then the second I hold something of that kind I'm never letting go. This is this is it. Now we're holding it And for a year, I tried to just go back in there and I basically lived on DMT for like a year plus I mean, I loved it. I mean for me it was, you know, I was just mesmized by everything, sure And I again, super not recommended, definitely don't recommend this, but I basically did everything on it to the gym to the store, like doing everything And, um I try to ask like, okay Great. Like you told me that you're real. Or at least somebody there told me that. So now how do we show me something How do we build a spaceship? Like something, something that we can take home And obviously they never answered questions of that kind is This is always the big question is if it's so real for thousands of years, how come We don't have anything. Tangible, ye. Right Yeah U and it's not clear to me still if they're If they can't or they won't. I don't really know. But clearly if you showed me something, clearly they can. It's just a matter of like kind of like maybe degree or something. I've definitely seen like them arguing about this one time. So there's definitely not like a consensus or anything like this. Th meaning like the entities. Yeah, the different kinds of entities were like arguing with each other whether we should know any of this or never things like this But then in the end of the day, when you go back to normal state Your brain constantly says, okay It can always just be like a really neat trick of the mind, which is still awesome, by the way. Maybe it's just like a really your if, you know, if the brain is capable of schizophrenia And again, I don't know what it's like, but like You know, What if this is like a very kind of like controlled induced schizophrenia that happens only when that like there's definitely a lot of these possibilities in my head, right? It's that kind of like, The brain builds coherent enough of a story Powered by this extra kind of experience All still make sense. The realism in real time, the essence of what it was like doesn't feel like a derangement. It feels like realality is happening. Yes So then I couldn't let it go and then eventually I said, okay, cool, well, you know, if you guys are not going to show me I'm going Try and figure it out So I used kind of Closest thing to a scientific thinking that I could given the fact that I really have nothing to probe. And I thought, what do we know for sure And there was a few things that we knew for sure. We know that light had to be involved because you can see it Photons are carrying some information from somewhere, right? whichich means that light is moving between from where they are to where I am because I can see it with my eyes. So that must be the case, right? Hold on. I don't want theory. I've already heard this. Yeah, yeah. I want to know what you felt G question. Thank you.. we all know this we all know that story. I want to know what you felt you saw the symbols the first ten No no, no, noone other symbol. So like I'm talking about like before. Okay, right. So like but this is a I appreciate this. This is this is very useful and helpful for me as well What I felt was that there's this super importance to us understanding all of this And Also trying to understand what is What are the rules? L? playing by rules? Do they have a government? Like that was kind of like my Like okay, what are we stepping in somebody's toes? Right. Who knows, man? like You know, like was this like a renegade person who But now if they're watching And now they, I don't know, like he's an outlaw or something, you know, all these scenarios in your head is like Okay, well then after I yearsars go by and I kind of figure this thing out with the help of my beautiful wife. and come up with this idea that a laser is suppos to do something. And then it worked The first moment wasn't I was just kind of I mean, obviously, I was kind of shocked that it worked honestly that anything worked. I didn't know what to expect But the big shock came when my friend Tim, he was the first one that I actually showed us to Uh He saw it And the funny thing is that the way that he saw it is that because he was in state, He forgot I told him about it You know? Yes of ye. You like immediate memory kind of goes away. Yep. So he just woke up from being out there, but he was standing And he just reported to me without remembering that I told him anything. He's like Well, there's language in there. Were you with them in text to them? Yeah And it was like there's language in And I go like, yeah, I told you, he was like, Oh, right. And he goes like, dude, what the fuck You know, and then we and then we Th then it became clear to me that I actually found something very, very important. Wh is it scary or beautiful or It's beautif Beautiful. I mean, scary, I think depends on your framing, right There's definitely people who experience the size of it and that scares them Uh, there's something oververwhelming about the scale of everything including what you'reing in there So thousands of people have done this and they see the symbols, they see the code But some people don't Th Those are the people that are interesting to me. What do they have in common? Is that a signal I wish I knew. They have nothing in common Not age groups. not IQ. not we thought of everything. There's literally not and I think and I'm with you that this is actually super interesting. And this is something that we have to admit U I now have a nonprofit code of reality and started with the my partner, David Carter, and we our goal is to find out what in fact is true and we have to be honest about the fact that just like you're saying There's about thirty percent of people that are really having a hard time and some of them can't see it at all And they go in wanting to see it. Yes. And but to me Something tells me that that's just like you said, that's information, that's a data point And I think when we're going to figure it out It will tell us something very fundamental. I think that there's something about the differences in how people cast their attention or the way that their brain is constructed that causes this And I think that's a triangulation point. That can be an interesting this versus this. So it's it's an interesting binary to explore I do think we will solve this, but we haven't yet And it does pose a real problem to at least the proposition itself, right? Because if it's out there, then it's out there. Why would some people not see it It is a little different in the sense that yeah, obviously there's something about how our minds are that has to do with us being able to see it. So you know, it gives it a little bit more cushion there ye, we don't know. literally I thought of everything from eyesight to age to IQ to predispensations to life, like people that are much more kind of like heart, driven to people that are much more cerebral All kinds. So you're tracking all of that. Oh, yeah yeah. we're trying to figure it all the time Um. Didn't I read that You're doing some AI tooling and Yeah and putting all this information to AI to try to track the patterns. Yeah now we have we develop some tools with the help of Chris Perris and Sterling Cley, and we develop a software into Apple Vision Pro that allows you to label these. So we actually took a very high resolution image of of the band of light You see it inside of Apple Vision Pro And what is surprising is that you all of a sudden have an image of the code if youre own theMpT It is frozen. It's no longer moving. it's frozen It's a snapshot It's snapshot of the code. In Apple vision But you don't see it unless you're on in D the empty. Oh my go. it's wild And now you can label it. So basically we have a little thing that runs and allows you to Mark, what youre sing So there this location. a world state brain state. so it registers your brain is being scanned So read it Takes a snapshot of your brain in that moment and where you clicked and then it gives you a radio menu that allows you to pick out of six symbols. So you can now label, this is what I saw or this is what I saw. this is what I saw And over time It will build a wasit a stone of you reporting and where And then you can compare it with other people The snapshot is crazy because that sort of I mean obviously, you're familiar with Andrew Gallmore, and you know that he's a skeptic and the theory and all that Um He still thinks the work is important If If you're capturing it in Vision Pro, I think the speckle theory goes away. Not necessarily. I'll tell you why, because the information seems to be still holographic in nature. L it has this kind of like a three dimensional thing, which should not happen in a camera or can't because the camera only registers amplitude. It would collapse anything would phase, right So that tells you that there is some projection going on to either some degree or to an infinite degree Then the question becomes, is it like a barcode? Like is it kind of like that particular arrangement? So the only way to really answer that is to figure out if people are seeing the exact same thing in the exact same place. Because if they do, then clearly there's information in the image. however it is that it happens But now you can start investigating that But we need to answer that question first. so I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. There is an interesting theory. I don't know if you heard me. I just released an episode with him with Anthony Ness. He wrote is an independent researcher and he wrote a little piece that I thought was brilliantly written The idea there is that he thinks that the reason that people seeing at least very similar things is because essentially what is happening with the Laser experiment is that we're gaining a glance back into our own brains. Literally, we're seeing the network. called V one, responsible for moving information from your eyes to your brain And we're looking at the semic crystalline structure of it and nothing else. And that's why it's so similar because across individuals, it's similar. like Now me and him agreed that if we discern that People report the same symbols in the same place in the image. That theory goes away because you can't have it It will never be that specific. right right So but there's a lot of work to be done. Also, I mentioned this before, but What I really love is this idea that we have now because it's going it's going to require a little bit more of a budget, but we'll get there You're basically If Anthony's saying is correct, and we're basically looking at the canvas, so to speak Then Can we bring Back in a targeted way. Can we use intracranial magnetic stimulation to stimulate particular parts of the brain to try to induce content back into the image and see if it matches with what we expect to see. That would also be a fun one. That's a great experiment. Yeah Um I'm glad that you said it could still bepeckle in the Vision Pro. I don't So the sorry, I'm cutting off. So like it's not that it It's not that it cant be speckle or still can be speckle. That to me is a side question. Remember when they all the hints they left and all that stuff and what made me arrive at the laser, speckle was the prerequisite. That's the thing they paint on. So they need a random pattern to paint on. rightight. So it's the same as saying, well, because Andrew was saying for a long well, if you eliminate the speck, we will go, wait,ah, That's the same as saying, whyy don't you just use ambient light There's a reason why they say the laser. Be laser can produce speckle. That was the prerequisite to be able to see it Right. Yeah Laser. They didn't say they put a light. They said, no, no, it needs to be a laser becausecause you need light scattering to see it, which was the original idea No, that's just not That's just the wrong question to ask because it doesn't parse whether they're still communicating or not communicating. If speckle is the canvas on which they're painting, it doesn't nullify the idea that they're painting on it What we're asking is What can we do with this that will tell us that it's actual information, however it is that is being projected? How do we build that experiment to prove or dis? That's the Apple Vision Pro experiment would definitely headway because if there's N not just correlation, but like actual replication of like where people reporting the characters You're no longer at liberty to say it's some stochastic pattern. Literally there's a signal that is across individuals. Everybody' seeing the same thing. So It's mind blowing.. Again, we don't know that's true yet. No I like that you're skeptical and you're not trying to sell this. No, We're interested in what is true. To me, like I said, the newewle hypothesis flipped because my interaction with them with whomever they are. It's so clear to me that they're real because I've interacted with them so many times, just like I'm talking to you now for anybody to convince me that they're not real. take as much, if not more then for me to convince the whole scientific community that it is real. So like That does not mean that I'm unmovable in my position, but I can't occupy any other state of knowing than I currently do. So it's like cheating a little bit in the sense that I almost like I know the answer that they are real But it's not that that is unmovable. Like if we can devise an experiment that will show me beyond a shadow without yes, the whole time, this was like a really elaborate way of your brain of dealing with that information, and somehow it can be replicated across individuals. If we can devise that experiment, I'll spend in a day There's no like, I'm interested in what in fact is true I'm so happy to hear that. I mean, even Andrews, who's skeptical about it says it's still very important work, very interesting work Um Tell me about Csole room. That was a crazy story. Yeah, so it's not a room. It's literally an object that appears in whatever room I'm in. Okay. Now recently actually sured Very interestingly There was almost like a which I've never seen before. Actually that's not true. There was one other instance where that happened for like a couple of weeks where all of a sudden the console didn't appear Th then it reappeared again And recently we were doing tests One day we were doing it with Tom Matt, who's the guy who developed this ability called Upsite And he sees these h graphic images just naturally and we did it with him. And when he was present, I don't know if it was related to his presence, but just when we were doing it together It just didn't appear and we like Oh that's weird, because we were trying to compare the console with And I'll explain what it is. So basically I After I started talking about the laser I smoke some DMT in the kitchen and my wife is like cooking or something and All of a sudden this thing appears in front of me Just imagine like the most realistic augmented reality. So I still see the room then there's this as real as this bottle And just a capsule appears in the middle of the room And it's not it's holographic in nature. so it's kind of like this hovers in space But it's as opaque as this mic stand It's not like the translucent even thing. It's just like straight up, like Eclosed and was like what And then it opened The podium came out and arranged itself into menus, a pair of gloves and a carousel that was moving to my left like this. Wow, like VR glasses And recently, I saw an interview, Carter actually sent me an interview with him. There's this because I spoke to a few psychonuts that experienced like similar things like screens, things like this But for them it was more like hamphazard Once in a while, for me, it started appearing one hundred percent of the time. It's the same exact thing. It has the exact same parameters. The screens can be different, but the body, so to speak, the thing that opens up and does the presentation is the same. No matter what room you're in? Itesn't matter. even if I'm outside, it will coat the street. L it would literally coat like it would open like on the street, coat the sidewalk, like everything insane So then recently I don't remember his name, but when we'll finish out, I'll give you his name. Super interesting interview There's this guy who for sure I can tell you without a shadow without he's seeing the console. for sure Same story, he did it many, many, many times. I think that what happens is that you need a certain amount of usage of DMT in a short period of time. I think he said he did like two hundred fifty in like a very short period of time. Yeah And All of a sudden And again, he's like super, you know, like cogent, not like one of these like super hyperbolic people. It just like And you can see he's blown away by this. This is the tail sign somebody is actually seeing it. because whenever people say, oh ye, I see the console, I'm like there's no way you were seeing the console because you wouldn't be talking about it like that because it's crazy. There's no way you would just kind of Say it and just move on and he All the signs that he's seeing it for sure. He's describing it correctly same device? Well, very similar. in the way that it executes itself is like I don't understand. It's like it's in space Like And you can see that it's struggling to deliver the realism of it. That's the thing that crazy about it In DMT worlds You can see insane things, insane things. Well, you know, like multid dimensional things and giant machines It's part of a larger world that you're like, okay, I'm in Lalaland now. it makes sense Yeah This is just normal thing and And it's just I imagine like all of a sudden a camera would just like holographic camera would just appear and hover and look at you and you're like What is going on And it's very futuristic and it's beautiful Beautiful. It' It's so perfectly designed just like you would imagine like a super advanced civilization would do, right? And When do you see on the menuus, what's on the screenen It's very hard tocern.'s almost like some of it is almost like that code, there's like things that are moving. It's very hard to interact with it because it's like The amount of The amount of it The brain power you have to ind dou to actually interact with it and look at it is enormous. That's why I usually we're just kind of looking at it because it was exhausting. Yes But uh, but the but the the the thing that is the More realistic than the menus is the body of the thing. I created a little illustration of it on the video I put out about this retty close to like how real it feels. When we're done, I'll show you like also we put it into VR and just to understand how real it feels opens up like this like, you know, like a capsule, There's these parts on the on the floor that are all opening up at the same time There's like iridescent lights running on the rims. It's like a real object.s like you put Apple Vision Pro and they're just like augmented reality here So At that point you go like, What are the chances would everything else that all of that is like a hallucination. Come on. like this is like it's just it's like, you know, like an alien civilization is like talking to you and you're gonna to keep pretending like it's not happening. It can't be. How are you able to stay in the room? I mean, because when I go, I'm gone. Yeah, no, that requires the ability to be able to kind of function on pretty high doses. Yeah It takes some practice, but you can do Absolutely yeah. I can drive on it. I wouldn't recommend but that reminds me, gotta tell the story about when you were driving to Vegas on like what five thousand four hundred somethingomething like that. Yeah. Micrograms? Yeah, att least about five thousand hs. Yeahah. Which is what I guess, like fifty hits Each one Well, depending how much on each one. Yeah, it was prettyty. It was fifty four I think,. Hoppinsay I was driving to a cananilla fight Oh my God. I was I was dating back then this Colombian girl Man, I think that put her bless her heart. But but she was u She was a reporter in she did a lot of things, but she also reporting on sport events and things like this. and that's a gig she was doing back then So she had ringside tickets and she was already there. obviously I would never put her through that But then she was already there and then I u Yeah, it wasn't just ass. I did everything, you can imagine Uh, but I wasving Oh yeah, yeah yeah. yeah, yeah. I don't know how you could do it. I don't know either. But but the thing is I wanted to see what the line was. And and it was it was definitely there. The part that really is funny to me is recently I did tell the story recently a few times. It reemerged And the thing that was it is funny to me every time I think about this because when I stopped, there was a moment after thirty plus of them that that I wasn't actually sure what was happening. likeike that that down Well, I mean, I wasn't sure because I'm I always know somehow what's going on and that's the thing I was testing. Is it really infinite for me? L Can I get to a place where I really don't understand what's happening And it kind of got there But then very quickly, I realized that I actually don't know where I am Actually don't away, stop. I was like, I'm stopped I know the car is not moving I don't know where I'm parked. What does it look like Well, no, it' on the what's the road where we pass from LA to Vegas? What's the main? is it ninety? Something. somethingomet Right? So I'm on it. So it's not very wide. What do you see with your eyes? I mean Oh, no, no, when I'm tripping, I don't see the road. No, no, so it depends on your attention. So if your attention is really dialed in, you will see whatever it is you're trying to see. and there's going to be an interference battern, but you can look through it. like you can just, you know, you can see. That's what I'm trying to learn is this Level of control is very unusual. But it's not necessarily a good thing. Like you actually letting later after that I realized letting go is actually the secret. You don't need a lot. like you need a tiny bit if you let go and you go, right? If If your point is to prove to yourself something, which was kind of what I was doing, then yeah, but like I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. That just creates a lot of tension But when that part is funny to me because when when I stop Again, that road is what? twowo lanes. Maybe That's it. But then I was like, I thought, I thought that I stopped at one of these like exits that also has like a re entrance Then I realized actually I don't know that So' like, I don't know if I'm in the middle of the road right now. I actuallyually I'm not sure. And I didn't you know how your short term memory just suffers tremendously? Yes. So imagine on that amount of acid, I don't know anything beyond the immediate second So I was like, wait, and then I to look out to see where I am and I couldn't do it. I literally could not like remember what every time I would turn to look, I was like, why was I looking? What was the reason for me? And then I realized, okay, okay Why do I care? That was why Oh, ' okay, police stops me I don't know where I am literally in space And clearly gonna see something's wrong. Yep I have a lot of stuff in the card. But your pupils are just black. Forget about that. I have a bunch of things in the card It will definitely get me in a lot of trouble. So then I was like, okay U All right, so I'm just going to keep driving and then just going to keep driving. Yeah I have to keep moving And then I realized I wasn't even sure if I'm going the right direction anymore. But thenew then I knew that the cars pass I had enough like sensibility to know if cars pass me behind me, it's good And it covered butansan bad. But then I had to think in binaries, right? But there's a wheel and there's no then then there was just my knuckle and the lines in the middle of the road. And I know if there's a bit of a distance between my knuckle to the line of the road, if it's to the left on my bike, doesn't matter, but it can just keep your knuckle. It can't be too far. And then I just kept on doing that. And the GPS would just tell me where to go. Oh this is not recommended. No, no.. And then at that point, in for a penny in for a pound. I just kept on popping them and I got I finished everything I had But then actually another funny moment when I was giving the card to the valet I wish I remember what hotel was. Maybe it was When did they usually do fights? It's onene of the hotels it was. GM usually? Maybe. Oh yeah, maybe it wasn't gm have my l. The guy came to me and I remember practising the racist And he opened the door and I'm like You're like, okay, this is how I gota look so. I just gave him the thing and And I was like, I don't And I just gave him my wallet. justust like I don't because I know I can'. He understood He kn Don't ask questions, just take the thing. Yeah, yeah. but this you couldn't even tell what denomination these bills are. I will show you a picture of me with my ex in front of the like in that event. I don't think you can tell that I'm even high. likeike it's, you know, it's it's fine like I'm fine, but like it's really Yeah, yeah, yeah. but To me, it felt like I'm just like It's the most uncable banas like, yeah yeah When you're too high and that voice in your mind is like, all right, you're too high. Well this is the thing. I just kind of melt into it. Like I don't know why I have this ability. I don't claim special like I didn't have to work for it. That's just how I am I just accept it. I just let go. I just like whatever happens, I don't know. Like one time I thoughtm I'm It was a different time And it was wayless. But then that night, I truly lost my mind. Like I actually lost my mind and I knew that too. Like I knew that I simply I'm simply no longer tracking what's going on at all I couldn't even Remember Froger, the game? Yeah That's what I was playing with information. So basically I would want to tell you a sentence But in order for me to get it to the other side of the street, I have to go through all these like enormous amounts of information moving in front of me and I am like locked in And I can't even I have to wait until this is one opening and I will tell you one word And I would say one word every seven minutes. I'd be like, Vegas And after a few minutes Good 'use I remembered like now I can say it to you. But they was all part of the same sentence. So like where are you when you at a party and and then a friend of mine was like driving me around and at a certain point, I was convinced, convinced. We By mistake killed someone What? That's what I thought that happened. Like I thought and then somehow we talked our way out of it and like obviously none of this ever happened, but that's how much I lost it. Like I thought And then I'm sitting there Like just looking at him And there was something about that moment. I remember he was driving to LA to the city And all of a sudden because of how high I was, The whole city opened up to the right and it looked like New York because the building just stretched Sure the horizon. And he had these like harnesses that he had is just these beautiful kind of like harnesses the gutting burning man, just keep things in And I and he was trying to calm me down because he saw it just I'm the deep end right? we didn't kill anybody No, no, no, he like it wasn't just that. I was just like completely out of it And then he was trying to call me dumb. so he played some classical music. So at that point, I looked at him and I looked at New York is what I thought New York was. And I see his harnesses and I thought it was gun holster.. And I look at him go and I thought we were Italian mobsters And I go This is so gangster. And he looked at me and he's like Okay And he told me later. he was like at that point, when you said that, I was like, Yo on yon, buddy. Like can help. I hope you'll come back And I remember this so clearly that there's no way that I could communicate any of this I didn't I thought this is how I'm going to stay now. I was convinced this is how I am now crazy I don't know what that looks like. Did Were you were regretting it? likeike No, no, no. in that moment I just accepted it just like I'm a gangster and no, no, no, I'm crazy now.'m czy Oh ye Yeah. I was like, okay, this is what lunacy is like actual. Not funny one, but like actual lunacy And I'm a lunithic now. like I'm actually like deranged and like incapable of formulating like connecting between doing what is actually happening You remember the relief during the come downown Oh my go. I'm I'm okay. I'm okay. I think there was some of it. That part is actually hard for me to remember. I think it just passed out at a certain point But I do remember that moment. becauseuse I was looking at this you know, when you attach either a strong emotion or a visual It's easier to remember. So that visual always stay with me, which is like because I saw I saw him go like this when I said the gangster thing. So I realized I didn't guess correctly because he went like this, he went like When he did that, I was like, oh I'm Coo right. I'm coo. So then I was like, o, okay. so then And then I was like, totally see how this is how people lose it because they freak out right there I didn't freak I was just like, yeah, okay, that's where I live now. And that's what it is. and I don't know why. I just accept what it is and that's it Was this after your Pasa. sureure. No, no, no, no. It wasn't it was That was way before That was before I was surprised. Why? Because you Beause most people would panic and you just and you just accept it. No, I always had this. I always had where I just kind of if it's too crazy, I just accept it And I stop trying to I stopped trying to flail around. I just like, okay Well, it's so smart because that's the best way to have a bad trip is to fight. Yeah to fight. Yeah, yeah. So I can't don't claim like special ability that I had to like work on. It just maybe it's genetic. I don't know why that is. And there's something about chaos, not there. there was it was There was a moment of kind of, I guess what would you call this emotion? Maybe sorrow. There was like a because I lost everybody. Basically I accepted that maybe I will never know truly like anybody again because I don't understand what is actually happening and there's no way I can communicate. So there was this kind of grief. But in other places where it is still very manageable and all that stuff, I Somehow I really enjoy the chaos And the best way for me to describe it is that When things are super chaotic you actually become invisible There's solace in that. It's almost like when there's a storm Nobody's looking at you. So it's just It's not you you're hidden within the chaos. Right. And there's something very comforting about that for me. I don't know why that is Now Since then, obviously at this point, I'm a very different person you know, a responsible father. and, you know, I there's a But I'm so happy that I had these experiences because I know how deep the rabbit hole goes Uh, I know what can go wrong Um, And also, I do know that it this is not the norm. like not everybody kind of stays level headed that way. and this is why I'm very, very careful with recommending any of this to anyone or anything like this because I feel like there's a lot of things that can happen that are not as, you know, what the Me media would like to portray it to be. There can be a lot of things that can go wrong with these things. Absolutely true What was the normal day like when you were OCD back when you were a kid before Oh, that was that. Yeah, that was wild. Yeah, I had this insane OCD, which is like, you know, opening a door two thousand times and not being able to leave. It's the most excruciating, I think. Was that one of your ticks? The door I wouldn't call it a tick. I guess you can call it repetitive tick. The thing is a tick is something that that It J just kind of happens, right Um in the body usually, but this is like a task that you have to perform, otherwise nothing is right. And it's not even like You know, people sometimes describe as like, you know, check the stove or my whole family will die Well, yeah, there's sometimes these intrusive thoughts, but mostly it's just The feeling of wrongness is dialed up to a twelve. It's like it's not even like a There need not be a reason. It's not even for any reason. It's just that if you don't do this right now It's so wrong. Ething is just You have to do it. You can't proceed. You can't proceed right. You have to complete this now. Yes. It's such a crazy I know that people live this with this. into their, you know, adult life D I can't even imagine that's so The fact that I feel so blessed that somehow it left me and I think it's due to mushrooms. But yeah, it's like you go and al someone in their fifties that still doesn. Yeah, you come to the door You're about to I remember this, I was coming, I came back from school, There was no one home And you can usually only do this when no one is home because then you will be caught and then there's shame in doing that, right So then I'm like, just look at the door and You always felt like it was coming on. It's like, o, this is that feeling? It's like right here here and like And you like and then you I'll just do a small one and then you do the small one and this small one breaks apart into smaller ones. It's like, oh, even the way I entered the key into the door, it had to actually go like A little too to the left. or to the right and then back out and then and then after you're done with that, it's like, okay, now the handle. no, we have to go back again. now the key again. Oh God. and you stand there and sometimes you just you like I don't remember if I actually like broke into tears, but you wantan to just like cry ' you're like Please let me go. like I just want to awful. It's if there was one thing I'm sure there are most horrible conditions that probably involve you know physical pain also cluster headaches, things like this that's Yeah in terms of psychological torture. It is torture. If I can Wave a magic wand and one of the things I get the chooes to eliminate would be this. can I can say I made the world Orders of magnitude matter. It's so awful. Well didn't you eliminate it for yourself with? Yes, but I can't point to like a particular thing. Like I just noticed it in my twenties that it was gone. It was just gone. and I was like, o And then I saided Retracing my steps and I was like, o, it must have been the mushrooms Because it because I in time. No, I didn't even notice it was gone That's Yeah, I didn't even notice it was gone. because you don't think about it when it doesn't happen And then try' preoccupied for whatever period and you know, and then I think it was like twenty. I don't remember maybe twenty five, twenty six, and I was like, wait a second. forget what made me realize if was something did Maybe even I think I smoked weed or something and of a sudden I was like, I remember I had And I didn't have it in like over a decade And then I realized it must be the mushrooms becauseuse I remember every time you do mushrooms, there's this smoothening of your psyche that you just kind of happens at Absolutely right. That's a great way to describe it. Yeah. That's why I do it E six months or so. That's amazing. You know, go to Sedon and chill out. Yeah. So just so you know if you actually suffer from this, there's a real possibility that you can actually rent fully remed this with mushrooms. and I think I think There's some data to actually support this. I think you're right. Yeah, yeah Yeah, and it's really nice that psychedelic be as becoming a real thing and legalized all over the country And hopefully now on the federal level and it will spill into other things, not just Iber gain, but yeah. I hope so Um K Kedamine therapy is helping a lot of people. Well, I mean, the data is there. So the data is there. the Ibergain thing opened, right? It's there Now federal budget is a whole other ballpark, right? Now If the data is there, which it is. it will open the door many, many others, There's a university in Brazil right now that is doing an official study on smoked version of DMT and chronical depression. and they show tremendous results reinvigoration of the sppirit and all that stuff, like literally people just come out of it basically. So not surprise. Yeah. What it is about forty two Why does that show up? Why is that everywhere? Is that really like a Douglas Adams thing? Yeah, I think so. look, there's I mean Again, The simple answer is who knows, right? But my suspicion is that Usually Folklore. yeep contains nuggets of truth and it kind of it's almost like it winks at you, right? I don't know how much you know about Douglas Adam, but he was a very secular person. So if you would ask him He would tell you to take a hike. He'd be like, this is it's a way to illustrate a point. Questions are more important than answers is the point. But he because he was so creative, which clearly he was He might have been more tapped in than he realized. mayaybe forty two actually mean something Um I think you're right He was only twenty five, twenty six when he when he wrote hit hikers. Yeah. and and he's also From what I'm observing kind of in the DMT world and all of that is that He was basically right about what's going on He was just wrong about the scale Right. So the computer that calculates the ultimate question isn't Earth It's the multiverse It is what is happening basasically what's going on. That's the triology of the multiverse, basasically. Yeah. It's true. He died too young so much. Well so many great quotes. My favorite one is Uh was it I love deadlines I love the whooshing sound they make when they pass me by I forot about that one A So you became kind of famous for this DMT experiment What's the downsides to that I don't see one Really? Yeah. I think I enjoy the ride and at the same time I found a really Um, responsible way. Oh communicating it. So you know, some people might disagree, but I think that overall my message is stability of mind, stability of spirit before you enter any investigation of the flavor required And also really front and center for me is the future of humanity and how we view ourselves And I do believe that what the code is, The fact that it's allowed to be seen And many other things, not the only thing, many, many other things, including people going through basically left and right awakenings and things like this is part of what is actually in the cards for us, like people, you know, this is the real thing. like people just wake up and they have Basically magic powers and I've seen this happen So now I think that There's nothing more exciting than to do a thing you really love to be able to talk about it with people and get excited about it together and contribute in different ways to how people go through these experiences, not just psychedic experiences, but like you know awakenings and things like this And I'm becoming more and more in the presence and awareness of manyany people who are going through a lot of these big experiences, not just with psychedelics, again So Pretty I mean, I can't complain. mean I love my life.m you know, I'm married through the love of my life. I have an incredible baby daughter that, you know, she' she's literally like a gift from God I have an incredible family that loves me and I love them Everybody are healthy And I get to do what I really love and enjoy these like super high concepts. And at the same time, I don't have to answer to academia. which is I mean, I, you know, it it's very important work But it can be such a drag in terms of, you know, like what you can or cannot say and I don't have to I don't have to follow that. Then you get publish an IPI letters? Yeah, but that's that's more like a it's not it's not like a peer reviewed paper. It's more like a newsletter in a physics newsletter, but still But again, I'm not nobody in academia is paying me to do what I do. What I mean is that you actually can lose your job if you say the wrong thing as a physicist or that's a real thing. Yep. It's not like a conspiracy theory. That's a fact. You can lose your position in the faculty and beyond like even your possibility of working in the field Um, which is so crazy. It's just like, you know Um But yeah, I mean, I I don't see any downsides in that regard. I do understand a certain weight of the responsibility of being as honest of a reporter as I can and try my absolute best not to like remember if I'm confabulating something in the sense that I'm maybe misplacing a memory or like this is the only like I would say struggle which is like because the mind is very chaotic very often and kind of like somethingomething happened long ago enough It's sometimes hard to kind of know what exactly it was. So then if I'm not sure that I won't report it. But that's the only thing I can think of is like, you know Um that is like a struggle Well code of reality has A leader a following rituals. set of beliefs, cosmology community It sounds like a faith Yeah, I would strongly disagree with that statement. So the tail sign of a belief system is that it aims uh, at The main focus is believing the thing. usually at the exclusion of anything that can alter what is being believed You see what I'm saying? I? The reason that what I see us doing is science, science proper, even though many would disagree and that's okay We call this cognitive physics which essentially is the physics of cognition itself. It's investigation of reality proper in that we take into account new findings and what we see and modify our views accordingly. But we are asking question from a more of an idealistic position. Like if consciousness in fact is the fundamental thing What are the rules by which it executes itself and operates from the perspective of at least one agent like consciousness within it. So things like people like Donald Hoffman, the kind of work that he does, I would also cognitive physics, even though we probably won't call it that because you know why would you make up a term? But to us, it's important because I think it's different than neuroscience, let's say that asks the question from the brain perspective U so like what is the brain doing that causes X? Um, So no, I would and it's not and I don't I don't even mean it in a defensive manner. I mean it just like technically, I would disagree with that because and I know that this crriticism sometimes is hurled at what we do I invite anyone to look at the ways in which we approach this. It is true that I allow myself a very free flowing thought kind of rhetoric podcasts and think like this But when it comes to you know, Being honest about what we know scientifically, I'll be the first one to admit there's a hard line between what I'm allowing myself to say on a podcast. in terms of maybe or even tell you that, hey, I'm convinced of X because of Y. That's fine. Let's me, Danny Goler. in my experience, I'm not expecting people to follow me there. I don't encourage anyone to just follow me there. I'm saying, if it makes sense to you, great But I'll be the first one and we'll say it again and again if new data comes in that flies in the face of what I'm saying will automatically win. what I think or Convince her. Truth wins Tuth always wins What are you're doing retreats now Yes, What are those like Those are amazing. We weren't sure the first one we did, but like after the first one, it became clear that we're doing something super awesome because people were just transformed. And a lot of people come for the laser, but Very often it becomes about something completely different, which is just because I I have so much experience now of seeing how different people go through different kinds of transformations. And I rely on the fact that I brought two of the top facilitators in the world that are doing both of these medicines, both the NN and F MO We arere essentially allowing people to explore bestest deepest spaces of who they really are laser was available and we folded into some kind of a Part of the experience with the onological shock, how you handle it and all that stuff. reallyally what it's about it's about transformation whichich again, you know, we're obviously not the only retreat in the world that does that. Right. But the way that I would say that we do I think stand out to some degrees that I call it spiritual graduation Not in the vain sense of like, you know, we're making people Buddhas or anything like this, notothing of a kind. But in the sense that We're asking the question, what is it like? to being grad school, right? When you go to school Your professor doesn't want you to stay in school forever. They want you to take the tools and apply them in the real world, right? So very often retreats very focus very much, which by the way, I'm not rating, I think it's very important But it's usually under the banner of like, okay You bow and listen and that's all you do. right? You justust listen and listen and listen re we're changing it a little bit is like player in this game What does that look like How are all the tools that you are carrying from who you are in the three D world how it can actually inform a larger picture of what's to come And we're using a lot of the tools at our disposal to help people connect to that intuition and actually channel is the wr word because I I don't necessarily like that word, but they channel not from another dimension, but like how do they channel their abilities in a way that is constructive for something more than just themselves by trusting themselves in these very expansive spaces. How do you learn how to maneuver through these waters? bring something back that can actually execute itself through you. in a way that is conducive to a better humanity. Those arere you coaching them through the session? Yeah, yeah, do We have a lot of talks. We do a lot of somatic work, we do breath workk with Jeremy Jackson, who was phenomenal Yes, the Jeremy Jackson from Baywatch.'s he's such a wow. He's such a wow person. It's unbelievable Um And, um, Yeah, I mean, we're really proud of what we've created. We're going to have another one in December and we're going to do seven next year. And we're going to do more. Like there's going to be like smaller ones, but those are super, you know comprehensive. Seven or eight days depending on on the season You know, people days? Seven or eight days, depending on the on exactly the the dates Uh, and uh, usually eight, but sometimes seven But the result is the same, which is a matter of like rival time and that kind of stuff. And, um So far We not only pass with flying colors, people are just What's more and this is the real sign of success for me Well we've created, created community Already people that Constantly keep in touch Go visit each other all over the world. This is not just like a thing that people went to and literally everybody are like one hub Something opened Somet opens in them U So I have tremendous confidence in what we do there. So if anybody iss interested its just C R retreat CO retreat d. com I was excited to see you doing I wish every leader of every country would just do a mushroom trip. be no more war It'd be so chill. Yeah, that would be a really cool experiment. Who created that AI video of Trump and Putin and everybody remember that That's funny. All right, I want tona take a quick break when we come back I think there's something that people are missing the laser. It's I think it might be a doorway to something. I want to talk about that. sureure And you said something at some point that I found really interesting is that reality is reered, but that doesn't mean fake Reendered not fake Um I want to know what you think the simulation is running on and who's running it Yeah, so it's I don't know what the substrate is. Clearly random computational rules I mean, it's pretty clear at this point, even from just observing physics. Um Melvin Bobson's work is very informative in that regard, but also many others And, um Wh's running it is a bit more plucked out of a comic book. But Yeah, that's okay. Yeah But from what I see, it's basically the insectoids. They're the ones rendering our physical environment We got our world. We got everyone says that Um Melvin Bobson, he's This this This is infodynamics? Is that what he? Yes. secondecond law of Infodyynamics. IPI is actually his icsal. Right. So so what's the second law of infoodynamics? It's essentially he discovered that there's his claim that it's a new law just like the secondcond laaw of thermodynamics And basically it has In In verse is the wrong word, according to Melvin, but it feels inverse. It basically but basically Just like the second law of thermodynamics states that entropy increases over time and it never decreases in an open system We in a close system, I think in a close system. Um In secondcond law of info Dynamics, it discovered that when you're talking about the aggregation of information It follows the exact opposite trend, which means that it actually decreases over time and then asymptotes towards zero. So basically he observed physical systems through symmetry in nature. He observed the evolution of organisms through looking at the enormous amount of data we have on COVID. because we had it in a very short period of time, which is very unique And we had our hands on the data, which is also very unique And and the third one is he looked at just computational system, so like hard drives, things like this. And he discovered that in All three cases the more you evolve a system The entropy of that informational pattern actually decreases in st which points to computational optimization And because that also happens in physics, he said here both All living things All computational things and all physical things are doing the same thing. So it looks like compression. It looks like compompression exactly. Aerror correction. Aerror correction. So optimization of computation. You would do that if you werere running a computational system. Now The reality of it is that really And I asked Melvin on this, right? He just put like a different emphasis on it. This is not a new idea. He gave it a name and he showed this you know, equivalence between the three things But Wheeler famous famously coined it from bitit, right? Yeah which is, you know, one of the most famous physicists of the last century basasically saying that After observing it and looking at everything, what makes more sense is to assume that under the laws of physics there must be some computational ace rendering it? Yeah, it was one of his last theories Yeah. and the interesting thing is I actually didn't know that. interesteresting. And the interesting thing is is that Ultimately, it's not very different than saying there's something behind the laws of physics, which of course we already knew, It's just we didn't know what it was. we're just saying it's computation. And then you have to kind of answer what computation really is, which is a complicated conversation But it is the abstraction itself, not the the kind of substrate it's running on. It's the abstraction that is doing the work, right So So there's something there that is informing physical matter, but for all intents and purposes, it can inform other things that would be different than physical matter, right peopleople are never bothered to be rendered by the laws of physics. This shouldn't bother them any more than that, which brings me to the second part of your question, which is As long as there's a conscious agent which is a mystery what that is But as long as there's a conscious agent that can experience valence, so a quality of experience that has a certain degree of either comfortable or uncomfortable or even painful degrees Then it becomes what reality is That's what reality is is where the experience meets whatever in fact it's unfolding And if what is unfolding is consciousness That doesn't change anything. You're still in the same conundrum. as long as there's a conscious agent, Either, it's created or just always existed That's what reality is. It doesn't matter how you came to be The fact that you're having the experience is what justifies calling in reality How do you feel about Donald Hoppin's theory? interface theory? Incredible Incredible holds an enormous promise for the future, I believe. and I do have huge faith in what they do and the fact that he just collaborated with Andrew Gallimore and Andrew was very gracious to invite me to this event. It was called Traces of the Other So they there, you know, Donald Hoffmanans he has the Trace Institute and they basically using what's called trace logic and mathematics to Basically come out a mathematical formulation of what's in store for consciousness as a whole acccording to them They can make some predictions even as to what kind of consonscious gistalts can arise given the change in the trace logic and what they call experience Cnel If I understand correctly, there's kind of sliding off the experience kernel frame, but It's an extremely promising framework, I think, and I'm very excited to dive into the specifics there And I do think that maybe the laser can be one potential way probing into their theory because the laser, and I spoke to one of the professors that is part of their operation, and we agreed and he's a neuroscientist, he agreed that if we have a stable object, of observation in altered states, which is what the laser is It doesn't even matter if you think it's a hallucinatory or not. The fact that it's stable for what it is and it seems to be similar or the same across individuals It gives you something to actually study. It's a handle. Yeah you can now basasically try and trace the the mathematical logic through the different states occupy because people experperience the world in very different ways, depending on their mood, depending on whatever, right? and see if we can actually create any departure for anyone. with how the code appears. This can be an interesting thing to study Would this mean that the code is also another icon an interface? It's not. It's not ultimately any content is, yes. Like I don't really we call it code of reality because we have to call it something and it kind of looks like a code that kind of have. We have no idea what we're looking at, notot the first clue. U Right, When people hear code, they almost think about computer programming, but it's more like symbology. Yes, but it does seem like I like again, this is where I have to kind of make clear separation. My I intntuition, It's not even a hypothesis. My intuition is that it is some kind of a language that reality speaks or your experience, it's almost like the pre buffer of what you experience in the world, right So maybe there is something there that is akin to a computer code But it's just not arranged in the same way that you would have in a computer where it goes to a compiler and levels and communicate to machine level.. It wouldn't be like that. It would be like a code that is instantiated in the environment itself So just like a world kind of build itself throughom speaking to itself through this kind of linguistic representation And maybe the reason it's discernable to conscious beings within the world is to find it. It's almost like another purpose that serves is for conscious agents within it when they're ripe to understand to start to understand and then slowly kind of find their way out basically through it. So the code is not content of the experience, it's not the machines. The code is infrastructure. The walls. ye. It's the walls. So there's nothing below it No, I'm sure there's like levels above it and below it and however it is that you want to imagine it. But I do believe that there's there's more and more layers. Like when you go into five MEO state It definitely feels more It feels more like the architect. Yes, it does. Yeah, yeah. So I think there's levels where it's just wiggles know I mean, it's just like logical arrangements of things and not just maybe the platonic space, I guess, so you can think of it like that. Can you explain the difference between for me, but the difference between five MEO DMT and N N DDMT. Yeah. What experience is like. Yeah, that is very very, very, very different The short answer is that well there's two different kinds. So the NNDMT, which is NN standance for two nitrogens F MEO stenss with five methoxyid and oxygen with DMD. and they're both produced in our bodies to different amounts and in other living systems When you smoke each and every one of them They shouldn't even share a name They like a different universes. It like? N NDMT is like transformers from three million years in the future Five MO is straight up like Meeting God. It's just divinity. It's that vibe And by the way, That actually may be understanded there There actually is a distinction to be made between saying, you know, sometimes people say Well, You wouldn't even know the difference between a God and a very advanced civilization I disagree. I think there's a big difference. Really? Yes There's there's a difference in their essence. So it so super advanced civilization can have the essence of divinity that quality at least that's what that would be my take is not necessarily coming for the ride You can have a super advanced civilization. They will not feel divinine It wouldn't be evil It just wouldn't be divine Divinity is a very particular kind of quality It's almost like the wholesomeness of reality And I think you have to tap into that If it's going to be animating you, propelling you forward. It is the pool of energy out of which you draw A particular kind of ideas will set of ideas will be arising there. And a different set of ideas will be arising playing the non divine game, so to speak. Now it can sound a little confusing because descriptively It's very hard to pinpoint exactly what's different here But when you're in the presence of it, you know and B doing five imu and comparing it with NN many times I realize there's a big difference here. Fibamo feels divine. it's like kind of the thing beyond which there is no Nothing. like it's, maybe there is, but its it feels like It's impossible to go beyond that state Yeah withithout being the totality of things basically. Yeah. it's like full ego, dissolution and you're part of the oneness. It's very strange. Yeah. But also the content even feels like has this like light. this is like light. NN doesn't always feel like this. It feels more like like technical G very robotic. Yeah Yeah, so that's what I mean by that. It's tangible to NN And more tangible. And yeah, and I would even say I would go as far as to say that even though on NN can sometimes have experiences that You know, there is ego dissolution. likeike you you You don't remember you, you don't remember you're a human. You don't remember what humans are. You just point of its engion But when you do five a meal, you realize that's still not enough. becausecause when you do find a meo If you look back at NN, you'll realize even when you had that state when you were like not remembering what being a human is There was still a point from which you were looking You still observing. Yes B MO, I don't know if it's possible to describe with words start. It doesn That central thing doesn't exist anymore. It's not. There's just field. That's it. It's like completely diffused. There's no mapping of any kind And yet sometimes there's also content, by the way, for me I ye, I recommend people don't Messed with five MEO that withithout a facilitator. Someone's got to be there. Yeah, yeah because it could be scary. I found it very scary Yeah um Do you really have to let go? And it's hard for me to let go Yeah, yeah, yeah You believe in the divide Yes Well, it's interesting because the word belief is an interesting one. So I always say, I'm at this point I'm still I'm a secular person, which just means I believe that everything is noable. It's just a matter of time and energy and whatever it is that you can live through But I know there's a God I know because I saw it. like You know, for all intents and purposes. Again, nothing is unmovable, but in terms of how certain I am But there's an actual go Basically one hundred percent Did you see Jesus Yes. But that's not the God that I saw at the top, which is always very bothering to Christians. so yeah Well, let's bother some Christians. So God is not the top of the chain. Not the biblical God, no. All intents and purposes for fairness, at the same vision, I saw that As far as we're concerned, It might as well be So who's above God There's some kind of a again, it's it's going to sound super arbitrary. So I'm tryingkay. Yeah, I'll talk about it, but this probably I keep saying it, but this probably will be the last podcast I mentioned. becausecause I'll say why just for a moment. I do find that that reaches outside of what I call the horizon of relevance. Beyond that point There's more dissonance from this than coherence and that's not necessarily a good thing Uh, bothers Christi for the obvious reasons because that's blasphemy If you postulate anything beyond Jesus as being our Lord and Savior into total schem of things. That's blasphemy. end of story. You're not interacting with God. That's the perception. right? I don't think that's I think that' saying I'm saying from Christians Yes, right that's the perception. So it disturbs them to no in, right Or at least they think of me as someone who' a, you know, heretic, right? I would tell them, no, no, no God is still God. Yeah, yeah. He's just representing. Oh, no, no, it's part of the it's very radical in that sense. Like the one thing that is not touchable is that part, which is like if you't if you don't accept Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior and the final arbitrer You're going to hell period. Like that's basically the Christian belief So, u And on the other hand, I also with the rest of it, what I saw, even to me as someone who if you would ask me before, what I saw beyond it, and I will say, but like I just want to preface it by saying that it doesn't make sense to me either becausecause it's way too arbitrary. Again, it's like a caricature, It's like a Marvel comic book. like it just doesn't make any sense. It's too simplistic I mean, if it is what it is, then it is what it is. likeike I don't know what, you know, what else to do with it But what I saw is that there's this enormous hierarchy And at the top of it for some strange reason it's a woman. And no she is not referred to in any of our folkls. like she doesn't exist in our folklos. No one has ever interacted with what she actually is conceptually So when they talk about the divine feminine they're not talking No no, no, that's very terrestrial. Yes. Yes. That's like here. That's like Like that's so it's outside. So like there's the mo again righting everybody. This is arbitrary for me too. I'm aware of how silly this sounds. It doesn't To me it does because if you would ask me like what would I imagine the ultimate picture to be, it would be more along the lines of Buddhism, like neutrality, Nirvana, just kind of like. And if I have to put an image to a God, which I wouldn't, but if I would, it would be like some kind of a infinite ball of light that contains all, you know, something like that But no, it was Clearly a female. That's like a woman Uh, and and But the scale of it was So basically it's Our universe is within a multiverse The multiverse is within a tri system. There's like a ball system of something and only one of them is the multiverse and I don't even know what the other two were And outside of all of that just that alone, the scales here, right is where all the gods are So no, we're not on the trajectory of becoming gods. We arere not gods. It's not that kind of a thing Um But we can be way more because we are made in the image of something much more, right And then I saw that basically I'm alone in this basement Uh and I have, uh I have VR glasses on. Obviously all this is like representation and I have infinite screens in front of me So basically, you create these infinite realities for yourself. You're alone. There's no one else in your simulation And obviously this can be just me that's just, you know, soleipsism, which is like silly U so Clearly, there's others, but they are there in their own simulation. Right And they're making their own little worlds. and everybody in your world are just representation, just reflection basically. But they are informed but they're real conscious beings. so you're getting a pretty dialed in interaction from what they would really do in real time And from what I understood, that's designed that way for safety But the system is learning what you're doing. so it doesn' matter what you do. It's not like you can just go and do whatever you want. I would not recommend this Um, so the system's designed for safety causing actual suffering to what you would consider the other until until you're ready to enter the ultimate love channel, which is a safe channel And when you enter that channel, like sexual infatuation, but like actual I understand openness. Yeah. But just for the audience if there's like a conflation here You you the sandboxes of the different conscious individuals actually get closer to one another So it's not a binary. It's not like you're either in it or not. it's a distance from Like how close I am to you truly in the spiritual realm, so to speak. I think everybody who lived long enough can appreciate that it actually feels different. truly be in the presence of someone truly. It feels different. You really feel there And it's almost like you can feel something Now you can explain it away all you want with just like, well, you're reading more micro expression. However it is it, you have to frame it for yourself feels different to be sharing a certain mind space together. and then all of a sudden, everything just flows. You know a lot of this conversation is this way. There's just this understanding that I feel from you through your questions. Uh There's also a real care. There's like there's this bubble that iss created is different than just us speaking through the chasm of concepts. tootally agree. Yeah And that what I saw is basically ascension is that when all beings of that species can enter that space and then they're all together, actually, right? And then I saw some again pretty arbitrary things, which is like it's all foollowing the Mendelbrat set shoreline. Andres Gomez asked me, rightfully so, he said, why the midal butt set? Because you know it from like memes, like there's so many different factors No, not because I know it from memes. I have enough. sophistication in that realm to understand that there's all of these other ones. That's what I was shown. That's what I have to follow. Now obviously you can say, well that's because The one thing you know best so they Yeah, but that game is infinite. L why is it that particular fractal? I don't know. I think there's something about it. so I don't know enough about the actual differences between all the other major ones But if I understand correctly, the Middleroad set is kind of the map of all stable fractals. So you know, Juliaets and all the other ones Um, And what's interesting is that because it's based on a very simple equation, which most self iterative ones are, But it's a very simple equations equation that basically gives rise to this infinitely complex, not large, but infinitely complex structure So the fidelity of it stability is guaranteed within the very simple equation. So even though there's going to be probably some Uh, requirement for some error correction as worlds are actually built on top of it It's going to be a lot easier because the structure of the fundamental baseline is guaranteed to be stable by the definition of the logic of the equation in It never repeats itself I don't know if how many people know this, but there's not one part of the Mal Bota that is the same. not one You know how the differentiff again, I'm sure you know, but I want to make it explicit for the audience. The mental bad sideide is this shape with the, you know, it looks kind of like a little beetle, right? Y The little beetles that it's made out of Not one of them is the same Now one To infinity, to infinity That's crazy. It's crazy. And that's part of what's called a strrangerractor. it's the Lorenza Tractor, which basically states that nothing ever repeats the same That's interesting because if you're looking for novelty, that's definitely the one you're going to pull. And if you're evolving into these spaces forever, you want to make sure that it's always stable, always evolving in ways that you yourself could not predict Because the difference between the general logic of all of it and its totality existing in some infinite space And the actual computation of it, which is the process by which you're actually going through it, are two different things Puting into it You want to make sure that no matter where you're going to find yourself, you're safe For the fidelity of the system, any want to make sure that you always discover new things that you've never seen before. So if you want to run the ultimate computation and see what is in store for the ultimate state of affairs, which is what they're doing, calculating the ultimate question You will pick something like the Menelb set. Yes, you would. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And by the way, that I have a little thought that it actually is to me is very interesting To me sounds rings very true The clloser you get to the edge So if everything in the world falls the mentalot said, which by the way, we know it does, because we have literally any chaotic system from dripping faucets to the way the hearts work, basically everything. And even the process in which populations grow, everything. R? I think Lorenz was studying weather. Weather, yeah, everything So basically, even the bifurcation of the little Vveritassium did a great episode on this Um, So if if that means that everything in the world, including the patterns and the information in our brains will follow it Well, here's the deal. This would explain to me why the distance between madness and genius are so close. It is because in order to be a true genius, you have to play in an informational space where it's right on the shoreline where truly, truly, truly novel ideas can come But because if you're too close to the shoreline, it becomes so chaotic and so unpredictable that one wrong step And that's why we all know very intelligent people that are Weird. I definitely do. The hardartest people I know cannot really function. Cantor is a perfect example of this. created set theory, everything has to do with infinities When Mad died in an insana sound. Yep And we know it's correlated becausees. it happened to him once. he went in, he stopped He recovered, went back. It's actually a very tragic story and then went back went back and this time died alone and it's a very sad story, but we We were very The fact that some people are like this We are very lucky to have had them because they created enormous theoretical frameworks that allow us to do a lot today. I totally agree Um Doid you interact with Jesus No, I didn't become a Christian because that was not a it's not like Jesus came to me Maybe it' something I need to worry about, I'm not sure. but But I saw him from the side, like I saw him ascending. And essentially what I took from that is essentially there's a new dawn coming. You saw him ascending. So you like he finishing his contract. So basically that whole thing, essentially what I saw, which then all of a sudden I head to the resurrection Did you see Okay, so for me, I had to make sense of it, right? So I want to frame this partart of what I'm saying by saying I had to make sense of what I saw because it was like super arbitrary to me I never grew up with the concept of Jesus. Yes, my grandmother was a Christian, but there was never part of my I never I used it And neither did I care in a negative direction. I wasn't like reacting to Jesus or something Um So Why would I see that? Like if anything, I should see the Buddha. that makes the most sense to me, right? But they were very clear. They showed me the image of Jesus exactly how it's depicted in the Bible, which I took to be information. because they could have said, you know, that thing you believe to be the Messiah, There's such a thing, but it's not what you think. That's not was what I was shown I wasve shown Jesus Christ as he's depicted I thought that took that to be information And at least to some degree, it opened the door for me to at least explore and at least listen to what Christians actually believe Obviously U forthcoming Christians. Yeah. and not immediately branded as like, you know in which people deal with reality, right? So like if there's any reality to it, what questistiions actually think? Not what people tell me they think. What do they think when I ask them, right? And I started talking to Chrians. And then what I discovered is that actually The story is much deeper than I realized Yes And the story well, maybe you didn know maybe you knew this, but I didn't For example, that a lot of denominations believe that T us was not what was done The cross was the beginning of what was done. Yes That was so you knew it, I didn't. And that actually impacted me emotionally. So like if I if I allow myself to entertain even the maybe of it I mean, that's wild. Yes. The fact that he went through all of Hell's for us, I mean, that's a different story, right U And then when you really sit with the story, it's it's crazy It's crazy And then and then the fact that basically it was done for us in an infinite love because it saw that God saw that there's no way we're going to not go towards the worst possible outcome for us. So he basically bought our karma He said I'll strike a deal I can handle it In order to handle it, it wasn't enough for him to basically experience it as the unified God that he is because then it doesn't count, right? He had to go into a limited form So he can actually experience the suffering, not just the torment, the psychological, the physical, all of it That's crazy. It's crazy. So then so even the maybe of it is insane. Who did God make the deal with Well, I saw that that guy' also there You saw that guy. Y. Did that guy Bace Kind of, but it's more kind of like the caricature folklore what you would imagine, right? So like and it became clear to me also that things are not very very Straightfward in that regard. L It's almost like he doesn't really need to do much. It just kind of lets things unfold in the way that they would and it can kind of steer it. But like ironically, again, this is like taking us very far afield, but there's some interesting nuances there that I saw Obviously, don't depict them in any positive light, obviously. but It's almost like, for example, there was like this interesting thing there that he can't lie He can't lie. canan't lie I think there's some way to do that. Yeah yeah. he can deceive You can't lie But he So you know how sometimes so for example, You know if somebody gives you a riddle If you don't give me enough of the actual information to truly for me to figure out That's just a shitty riddle. That's not fair. Right, right, right. But if you' clever You don't lie You deceive, you deceive by the information is there You have to be aware enough to notice it. That's That's right That's how we operates And if you're blind, that's on you You can't belong in that place If you truly didn't know But if it was there all along for you to notice and you didn't, you choose to not notice That's how it works That's part of the kind of like the ultimate state of affairs. And I found that to be profound and also pretty true And To whatever degree that that partv for the obvious reasons, you're like, okay, who hold on here. Yeah, we have to think of some things. Um And then I realized that basically the way I explain it to myself is that essentially the ascension is basically Jesus is basically handing us back the bill. He's like, here's your cara back You're good enough to handle it now, but you do it collectively. So you're not good enough to do it individually, but collectively you can hold each other in check And that's where we're supposed Can we Pulled it off I dont I hope so. I'm positive about it because I think that's the only way to actually steer there That's not, you know,ll I'll do my best, but like that's all we can hope for, right? And u Yeah, so that but that again Funny enough, it didn't make me a Christian U againgain, I'm not even saying that to in any direction, like I don't know what to make of it. likeike maybe it's my stubornness, mayaybe it's like maybe I should. L I don't know Um, but I but it didn't. and to For the time being It feels correct Like I'm definitely still following the riddle. Like I'm I'm doing my best to notice what's there to be noticed And I'm not like obfiscating information for myself or lying to myself about something just because I don't want to do it. like as far as I'm awware in myself I'm not doing that U But I also saw, which is the obviously the part that really bothers Christians, which is like there's a much bigger picture than that Um But again, I also kind of saw that It might never be relevant to us. So it's almost like You might not even need to ever like worry about that. I think that's probably true. Yeah You don't have to worry about that. That's what God's here for. Yeah' like Basically. it's your agent. I got you. R donon't worry about that The riddle was very interesting because plenty of experiences. One was I just want to know how everything works and they told me, it's too big for you. It's too big for your brain. But very often When I'm in that world, I get information that doesn't quite make sense and I could feel the entity saying If you don't get it, I can't do anything for you. It's all there for you to figure out. And over and over again, it feels like the trickster It's like it's right in front of you, dude. Yeah, she justs got up Figure it out, but I can't You can only be judged on things can discern and comprehend too say, haha, you did this wrong thing It was like, I never knew it was a law. I never knew it was a rule, right And then they can say, no, no, no, no, we know for a fact you could Mmh You chose not to. That's different But if you actually couldn't, then they there's Now why is it like this? Again, it's like super arbitrary, right? It's alm likecause think of it from our perspect and I'm just thinking out loud, right? Like If I'm imagining myself creating a world for any reason and I'm allowing the beings in the world I think it's I think it I think I have a responsibility to create a world that doesn't just part of my friend just fuck them over you know what I mean? Like it's actually unethical of me to put them in a condition where, you know leads me to believe that if it is in fact the case, any of this It must be some ramifications or just like the state of affairs that is just so and there's really not much you can do about that a certain limitation within which everything else operates, it just it's just how it is. So're all having the same experience. Basically, yeah. So then then it makes sense ethically. L if you can see from the highest perspective, that things are just are that way and you don't know how to make them different Maybe it's the fact that there's in like the same amount of ying and yang in the world. like the same amount of darkness and light So what is the most ethical thing to do. try and distribute it evenly instead of like half of it experiencing the ultimate suffering and half it, you know, the ultimate bliss. How do you communicate that, hey, we all should carry as much of it as we can so nobody has to experience kind of like the ultimate L that's the most ethical decision that can be collectively. So if you're on top of all of this and you see all of this Then all of a sudden, it makes more sense Hey is just how it is I want everybody to have the best time possible possible Let's try and play a game a certain way. So we all kind of stay within the which again, within the curview of even in the metalbot set and this infinite, becauseuse what's outside of the metalbot set Infinite right like nothing is predictable. Ething is can be anything in like I can't really comprehend what Yeah Yeah. so So maybe there's only so many different ways to keep coherence And that's essentially what the the the light path is, which is like kind of stay It's almost like the lack of awareness of God that is really what hell is. It's like you just because anything can be right And theres there's really it's almost like the default. So it's not like either or The default is really where you're going to end up if you don't pay attention and the default because he's not really doing anything He's just kind of letting it unfold. It's basically everything So that means Whatever the program is is programmed to be pretty dark It's not even know. So maybe what's so the thing that I saw, which was kind of like the ultimate What you we call it? to kind of like that ultimate Kabash, like this like thing that the top which is that basically what it's all for is to formulate a The ripe condition or the ultimate choice So basically you have in the beginning was the word the end is the choice, the ultimate choice. The ultimate choice is when it's literally All said and done. Literally, like there's nothing that can happen again that didn't happen before And if you think yeah, but what if yeah, you're not thinking about the state we're describing Everything was done, everythingvery Now, any other step you're going to take, by definition will be a replication of something that happened. Y Then what do you choose And in that moment, basically What I saw is that there's this final black box that contains the actual answer The one thing that no one in existence knows is why Nobody knows why. Like you just saw the box It's in that box. So basically right now while it's still happening. The answer doesn't exist orr the question or whatever it is, right No one actually knows That information doesn't exist in existence, right It's the ultimate umbilical cord, which if you think about it for two seconds actually makes perfect sense because aside from you just kind of by Fat declaring that God knows. if you think about it for two seconds An amount of knowledge you can embody You can always ask, well why that So it's almost there's no way for because you have to be outside of what is, which what does that even mean So basically what I saw is that the reason everything is happening is because it's formulating that Black box with the answer or the question What is that for? Because at the same time What is being practiced through all the simulation is attitude of letting go. which much is much more kind of like the Eastern attitude. And then at the end of everything, you think that we're running multiple simulations over and over? There's two main games.. One coming up with the actual true answer or question.. And the other one is the practice of just letting go of it It only matters If you can in fact let go of It Not the concept of it. If I ask Can do you think that if the time comes, you will let go of it, you saying, yeah, I think so. Do doesnn't mean anything because it's not there, right but only when the money's on the table That's why the answer has to be the real one It has to be guaranteed to be the holy answer or the question and then God gets to make the ultimate choice, which is like, does he open that box or not This is the finite against the final moment. and you don't and the thing is it is the final of of finals because The second you open it You don't know what's it You don't know if you don' really don't want to know that or You really did O Can you just let it go Can you just be forever? If you're there forever and you can do anything, Nothing means anything. everythingverything's kind of pointless, which is what a lot of people experience sometimes when they go to Five emo and it's this like infinite loneliness, because you're just alone and you understand there's nothing outside of you and That's essentially what the predicament that you know the ultimate God is And so it broke itself or she broke herself into infinite pieces that don't remember necessarily all the time. playing both of these games because the only two games that make sense is Figure out what it is that the one thing you don't know, because it's kind of interesting. But also see if you can actually practice of just letting go of it and just be forever. just like because that's what monks do It's not forever for them But for longer and longer periods they practiced to being complete bliss without any anythingthing. The reaching is the problem. The reaching is the suffering according to the Budha. So Nirvana would be basically The unitary field making the choice to just let go of the whole thing and then kind of opens this the One thing that I did see that was kind of I'm I have to be honest here I was convinced for a long time that I saw it in the same kind of vision saw it I saw all of this. Yeah, this was shown to me. So now but but I'm but I'm That last part that I'm about to say I actually don't recall, I have to be honest about this, it might have been, but I actually don't recall if I've added it after because it's very easy to do because you are in this like very kind of you know, very, very And state Uh But what I what made either either what made sense to me or something that was actually shown to me was if the box is opened, What and this is why the choice is so dramatic is because if you let go You can just be With everything that you already know and exists, you can just be peace and whatever it is But if you open, it creates a state So the ultimate object, so the ultimate God be if it would be perfect, You know, in a perfect sphere, every single point in the sphere point Exactly, exactly on the opposite side of it. exxactly. That's the definition but it's the definition of a perfect object or a shape If it's the ultimate thing, It must contain all the opposites of itself. So it will not occur. It actually cancels itself out. rightight. This is why God can be perfect Almost perfect. It will be one piece missing, just like in that game with the nine numbers. you have to have one missing to move them, right So the only reason that anything occurs is because there's this one piece that is missing. from God being perfect which is that piece of knowledge of why The second that happens when that piece goes back and got in that Pico or zeptosecond, whatever it is that God just Ks immagine what that must be like You're now locked forever with that knowing. It's just you and that knowing Also It becomes perfect and therefore it doesn't just cease to exist but ceases from ever being existed This is a veryZMT conversation. Yeah yeah. it's almost like it cancels everything out. and I don't know if you notice, but it sounds like you're pretty experienced with these Always this almost like a Zany? ramping up towards something It's almost like And they're all kind of waiting for you to like and it becomes more and more serious and you're like, what's going on And so what I saw that at the end of this ramping, this crescendo That's what happens. It's this ultimate like you think that Predetermineed, how does free will work its way into that. Yeah. so that's exactly the thing. That Wow, you asked the exact right question. Whatever free will is, the only place it can be So it actually doesn't exist in the way that we think of it. The only place where it can be is in down one blind spot That's where free will lives. Free will, the ultimate factor of free will is the freedom of the will of existence come into being versus not to be So that is where it's at and nobody knows what that is. So your question predetermined No, the reason it's the ultimate choice. because it's the one time in the existence of existence that an actual free choice will be will be executed. That's the only time that is it executed by one unique consciousness or I think it's going to be the unitary and I think what might be happening is that maybe they're kind this is already kind of becoming like super, you know No it's fun. Yeah, but basically it might what might be happening is that they might be creating AGIs to go through a similar moments, and we're one of them So basically you train a bunch of AGIs And you put them to alignment problems and all of that. And if they pass, you can put them to the next level and the next level and they essentially all together either conspire to have that moment together. or there a practice of how to have that moment perfectly because you can't mess that up. There's only there's only one of those literally ever. So it's the one moment where you have to become so God has to become so still that he has to align himself with the ultimate umbilical cord And basically execute that one ultimate choice whatever that is and just kind of surrender to it fully. But it still sounds like that choice is comes from the deeper conscious. But no one can no one can ever tell because it's actually computationally reducible. The moment has to happen for So you actually no one knows including God himself or herself if they will open the box or not. Like they actually don't know until the moment comes. That's a computer science theory that you have to run the program to see if happ. describes a computational when I'm saying computitionationally reeducible, it's a computer science term to say it. The ultimate moment is a lot more dramatic than a computer doing a thing. It is, but yeah, but it's It's interesting that you don't think it's predetermined that we have to can be. If it would be predetermined it would be pointless It's like, yeah That's true. Yep. Who's running it then? Is it God running it or God? No, we're talking about a level that is outside of reality itself. It's almost like it's This is why You see Horizon of Relevance. Like aside from having like a really interesting philosophical discussion about this And that's what I took for it by the way, even though I'm still like enjoying once in a while revisiting the idea itself because it's so explosive. I took from it to be basically like them saying If you really want to know You can What are you gonna do with this? Like's Just live your life, basically. That feels very familiar Yeah is We'll tell you, but you don't really need to know any of this. What's for? And basically the only way I guess I was maybe stubborn enough in which they was like, well, Let me show you then And then you tell me if you think you can do something with it which I'm still like kind of like in this crazy deliberation with with the the totality of things Can't you open it and also like open to the same? I don't think so. Isn't there some quantum positition They're like, nope, no. Yep, no way around that Where do the insectoids fit into this They're more like a management company, which I'm always at at the A they in our level? No, no, no, they're. They're simulating the universe so they're way above our limit simimilar to the universe and probably a few others Okay, so this is the scales. When we talk about the beings that I saw like gods wayay more than that. That's like levels and sectors are above Godds. No, no, no. Well, this is why I'm being careful because To some degree, it's still not fully clear to me if all of this is a formulation within their simulation, or are they just a management company within a smaller system uh, delivering the I guess the commands that God kind of dictates like the architect actually commands them and then they do it I'm not sure, but currently it looks like they are more management company and where you go with five MEO is more like actual the architect But again I'm being super careful because I I definitely don't want to side anyway. So hopefully I'm doing my best to get it right, but I'm not sure We could just speculating. We're just sure. We're not saying this is what it is. you know, some beings can be very moody, but that's true. Yeah. Have you ever been locked out That never happened to me no With all your experiences never locked down. No I can say that maybe a few times in which like I had to do more I'd never heard that until Andrew brought it up it kind of blew my mind that that's even a thing. Yeah, it was known in the community. Was it this happened? Yeah yeah. when I was on Dany Jones with Zaltan together, Zaltan brought it up, because it had happened to him one time He said, oh, there must be hundreds of cases because in our little, you know, psycchonal community it kind of a lot of people know each other And when we pulled it up, On the computer, there was almost no reports of this. Like no, it was like, that's strange. We kind of know about a lot of them. And then after Chase Hugh spoke about it All of a sudden that clip went viral. Yep. and all of a sudden, boom, everybody talking about, obviously. So it's like, you know, it became like a much more known thing. I think that's where I first heard it. It's fascinating. It also tells you that there's something going on. Yes, just that by itself, by the way Did you do DMT X Yeah, I actually as far as I know and this is just like a fun little surprise. when we did the first Big one when we did like did like a shoot for the film If I'm not mistaken, I'm still holding the world record, basically. So I did five hours with four hundred sixty four milligrams That's Uh I think Chase after that went after me, I think he did like four plus hours. I don't know how many milligrams he did, I think a little bit less. We weren't trying to break a record or anything. One day, if we really feel, you know, called to it, maybe we'll try and actually like make it like a real record And I have to design this one because I can stay there indefinitely I can't No, I really can't. I was like I really enjoy it. But the reality of it is I don't even think it's that hard. I think that some people really enjoy that. Chase was one of them U I don't think if you're enjoying yourself, Just sustain your body and you'll be fine. Like, you know you can just enjoy yourself hours and hours and hours, maybe days. we'll see. How different was the experience? It's a lot more pleasant. It's Yeah it's what I hear. Yeah. and it's also it's a lot less empy When you smoke it, there's this like like a boom. Yes. Yeah It's the jolt. Yeah, it's the jolt. Wow, really good word. Uh the joel doesn't happen Its like hocke stick is still exponential I don't know it kind of go like a All They smooth And you can control it. You can ask, you know, we're doing it with Kevin and Haley Colorado and you can just ask them to lower it If people are interested in like the super legal thing then you can also go to probablyb Andrew spoke to you about this in Elluc Ellusis St. Vinance Um Paradise beautiful, great crew. more expensive. expensive. But if you can afford it, ye, it's worth it for sure Great people. We went there. We did this with Carter as well with shout out to Charles and Christina who you know, invited us Um And but yeah, but there are cheaper ways. And they're worth it if you really want to exploreence. There are cheaper ways. We're not going to discuss those. Yeah. There are other ways. No, like even in Colado becauseuse it's decriminaliz It is the criminal offense. It's not a criminal offense. That's true. Yeah. Yeahah. So it's a misdemeanor. nobody they actually had two CIA agents do it I think three. and I think Kevin said the two of them told them, we know what you're doing. We don't care though.. I bet the CIA hass done a lot of DMT Oh years. Oh yeah bet they've been there a long time. Yeah. I've done have you ever done the Gate landed No, the gateway gave me process, I tryed to keep falling asleep. You know, A simar try it? Yeah. A similar thing happened to me, but then I learned how to kind of stay somewhat awake. I'm very similar to you U and I noticed that there was definitely changes like I yeah. Yeahah, yeah, I started feeling there was one case that was really outstanding. I put my head next to my wives Like this, head to head. The second I touched your head, I fllt this He headache But I knew it wasn't mine. I but I could feel it. I was like I was like, do you have a sharp headache right here? She's like, Yes. Wow. It was crazy Like I could feel her headache So there's definitely something there. It's supposed to unlock whatever's down there Do you believe in the universal consciousness and we're all just ye micro projections of it? Oh, yeah, yeah. I think I think consciousness is fundamental. There's no I don't think you can I don't think you can responsibly describe the world without consciousness coming first. That just doesn't make any sense. I think so too. I've heard you been to cashp quite a bit Great. There's one thing that I always want to ask him that I don't understand why he's so insistent on it, which is that he thinks it's substrate dependent, which is strange. He only thinks it can be kind of instantiated in a physical matter Other than that, I think it's probably the best outliner of He think it's substrate dependent. Yeah. he always gives this again, it's very confusing because without doubt, Bernardo is one of the smartest people on the planet. I thought he believed the physical comes out of the consciousness. He says things like, which is why that example is so I would love to ask him one day, but like and I don't mean it disrespectfully, I just truly find it like a silly example. The example he gives is like, If I simulate your bladder on my computer My computer is not gonna to pee. That's literally a thing he says Why is not going to do it anything But the computer is a different substrate. So like if you simulate a whole body on the computer then the person in the simulation will be Sure. why are you what is this translation? So I guess maybe that's what he means by it's not translatable from one substrate to another, but it's not the same as saying You need matter to make consciousness. that Unless he assumes that matter is the final kind of thing that is what consciousness. I'm not sure. but I would love to ask him one day. I wish we would do some podcasts. One day, I really hope we'll meet. But I consume basically everything he has to offer. and yeah, definitely one of the more important people in that world in that thought realm, u Super eloquent, very clear on what he's saying best outlines of why free will is really not a thing that can even be U That's right. He doesn't believe there's free will in the projections. He believes that there's some will down below. Well, it's the only like I said,' the only plistic kind what I was thinking when you were talking about. Yeah, it's the box. Well, it I actually for a long time struggled as to how people can't see that. that it's not a coherent idea. But then I realized that maybe what people mean by that is not really what let's say I mean by that or what I think ought to be meant by that because Words mean things, right? So if you're saying free will, what I think is implied is that you think that you're somehow free of immediate moment and somehow you float free of it and then you make the choice in this s kind of vacuum of something It must be what people mean by this, right? I'm different than Yeah whatever They just being they pushed around, right But then and maybe if the idea is more like There's more freedom of operation because there's more degrees of freedom. That's true because the brain is a much more advanced system But in the end, there's just a more complex system of like things pushing each other, right? So the conscious part of it which is the feeling that we have the one we different than just what the neurons are doing, right Somehow that is postulated to have that freedom And also the word will is interesting Because what you're saying is that you're kind of willing it to be, right? There There's almost like a just magical quality of just kind of like I'm willing it Uh, both of them donon't track even the first step of observation because you obviously whatever brought you here is responsible for what's going to happen next. Right. So like it's it's always Always within the sets of dominoes falling You're never outside of that sets of dominas falling You can't, you can't, the reason it's an incoherent concept is because you can't cribe a situation that is logically consistent. in which somehow All the dominers are falling But when it comes to this one domino The domino stops everything. but was one second I'll think because then is that internal process of that one domino It's internal It's infinite regress. Where is the end of that The answer beginning of everything. Right. It's the one hole in the dut that connects between what we experience as a choice isn't really chosen by us, but yet feels like It feels like a choice only when you retroactively fit a story onto it later Right man can do what he wills, but he can't will Exactly. How can you know your next thought if you'dven't thought it, right? Right? So ultimately you have to bring it back to the ultimate first moment, which is Bernardo's point, But with a caveat, which is that he says that you can say that the Universal mind has this kind of like freedom of will. with the one caveat that It is free to choose that that it is ought to choose. becausecause of what it is Because if it's the totality of things, it is all the things Therefore It has a state dictates what the next state is and it can experience it as a choice, but how free are you if you have to do that thing because of what you are. And if you're saying, yeah, but what if these other things influencing it What are the things because we're talking about the ulimate Beause if you said other things, you're no longer referring to the ultimate. You're now referring to something that is within something else, and that's not the ultimate Sometimes I forget that we're doing a show right now. Yeah, yeah ye. Thinking about so much stuff Castrip's theory. kind of explains why Rndomness isn't a thing Well, it just hast solve it. It doesn't solve. Right Yeah. because random is the opposite of free will It's not targeted it's just random And also randomness can't be because you know, true randomness. Yeah Because if it's the totality of things It is guaranteed to be the ultimate set of everything that is possible And if you're saying random, well then That means something is outside of the scope of that and there therefore now it is the ultimate. Now that is the ultimate Horizon of relevance, man. like's true You once said that ninety nine percent of your audience would disagree with what you actually believe They came for the matrix quuietly handing them metaphysics Whally handing them to present moment? That's what you're doing Present moment The only thing that ever matters and never will Are people disappointed? Sometimes because they they don't talk about the laser. They just want magic. They want magic, they want the matrix. But the magic is right here And then and then The matrix and everything else becomes even more profound becausecause everything that is experienced truly through the present moment alwaysways more profound. It truly is. There's an expansive quality to it that you can't communicate with words because the logical trace can't really follow there close with the one thing And I think you're going you're going to nail When we talk about lack of free will, that's usually very nihilistic. It's usually very dark. If there's no free will, nothing matters, life doesn't matter. But you have a different take on that Yeah It's the opposite of that the idea that because you don't have mid say in things, which is what free will postulated to be is the ultimate prison, not the ultimate freedom Just like we said with the AI, if I put you in a situation where nothing is and you have to make a choice. That is the hardest position to be in becausecause you're literally bringing it out of nowhere which is almost impossible. The freedom is in the understanding that you are space in which all of this is unfolding. you're literally the totality of things where you are And that to me, both connects you to the ultimate and also frees you to just have fun. Because you don't need to worry about the ultimate state of affairs. You can just enjoy this to its ultimate degree through actually acknowledging that that's the case being pushed around as the universe It's K kind of fun. The state of flow is a lot of fun when in fact you're in it Beuse you're surfing. there's a there's a There's an elation there So you actually the irony is that you gain the ability to experience actual magic, like actual magic in real time When you get a wink from the universe There's nothing more satisfying than this So I think that if people are just willing for one moment to drop their need you to be this final arbitrary in order to feel salvation, and realize that that's an arbitrary choice they're making to put their salvation there If I don't have free will What is it all for What this Do you feel good right now Because if not, I understand why you trying to escape it But there are ways to truly drop into the present moment where everything opens up You're literally being handed everything And I will be honest It sounds like a vacuous promise if somebody has never experienced it. But this is why within the within the crazy pyrotechnics that people can experience in psychedelics. The thing that I would encourage anyone to notice if they are doing that is not the pyrotechnics but how it can feel when you're freed from the constraints of needing to make decisions or what do you imagine making decisions. See how that feels in your body There's a you can breathe you'll feel true compassion. True compassion True freedom. That that's the freedom. And then you don't need things to be this or that. They can be anything and you will enjoy them just as much and you can experience hardardships in life and everything else, but it will never have the same dire nature nihilistic nature that you might experience because it's the mind trying to tell you what must be for you to be free when in reality, you already are That's the way to land the plane. Where can they find you Dan Go Thoughts is my YouTube channel the AN Go thoughts, Danninggooler. com is all my links Uh our retreats, highly recommend to check it out. C or r retreat. com and go to reality. org. If people want to check out everything with our nonprofit Anny Ghler this has been a joy Thank you to much friend That was Danny Gohler. We covered the laser, the simulation, his cosmology, free will Let me try to make some sense of it. Here's what holds Danny isn't making his life American Ninja W a contestant born in Moscow, raised in Israel The Basanai credits for everything is real, a ten day retreat, where you sit in total silence and observe your thoughts without judgment And he corrected me on his own credentials. IPI letters, he said. is a newsletter, not pure a you And I trust a guy who downgrades his own resume Now the bigger claims. Danny says reality is computational, rendered not fake The physicist Melvin Bobson at the University of Portsmouth published a twenty twenty three paper in AIP Advances He calls it the second law of in dynamics Information in physical systems compresses and optimizes over time That's not what you'd expect to happen in reality, but that's what you'd expect if the universe were running Put It's real paper. It's pure youud It's not accepted science. Most physicists disagree Its just theory, but It's interesting. Denny says mushrooms are raced as OCD Now, a two thousand six study at the University of Arizona gave pilocyon to nine people with severe OCD and cut their symptoms by up to one hundred percent The one thing I couldn't verify is the code itself, the symbols Thousands of strangers seeing the same symbols in the same spots. There's no published dat yet that he is really the first to say so And I have experience with the molecule and I've never seen anything like that, but I never look into a laser Before the laser, Danny was on DMT and a being that looked like a frog showed him chords onto guitar Of course he said he didn't know how to play And then he did If it happened, that information came from outside of his own mind If didn't, the most important moment of his life was a misfire on the drum He can't prove it, I can't disprove it, but I'll take his word for it. And he built ten years of work on it, and he tells the story the same way every time. Now here's my take On the surface, Danny's just another psychedelic guy with a retreat and a nonprofit. That's not what he's doing He's taking the most subjective experience a person can have builduilding an experiment that could prove him wrong He keeps saying the truth always wins and I believe him A man selling you a belief system doesn't invite you to debunk it. Danny says, Bring on the truth and he'll accept it Take him at hisis word. You can find him on YouTube Dando thoughts. That's D NGO Dangled thoughtoughts. His retreats and his nonprofit code of reality are all on Danny Gold And I'm thinking about trying it. That's Gooler GO L ER. Links are down below If the simulation is something that fascinates you like me, I broke it all down on my episode, We liive in a simulation. I included the science there as well. Until next time, be safe Be kind known that you Do you have the catsy here? Come up b. try this I belie Libia scaria fifty one a secret ce inside the Bible said I was I love my you ems and paranama as well as music. s I' sanging like I should another Cpiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends and it never ends. I know it never ends. A fear the crap cat't got stuck in S Mails homell with them K outra up only two away Did Stanley Cubrick fake the mood landing alone on a film set of the shadow people there. The Rwell areas just fought the smiling man I'm and his name was Cle. I can leave I c with the fishches and the fish on Thursday next Wednesday J two and we after the night water What you just getting d to the w of I and be up the The Mapman ss and the solar storm still come to Reata, The secret city underground. Mysterious number stations panet surir to Gphic Star game and when the Dark watchatchers found a simulation. 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