Government Disclosure and UAP Topics

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible. Financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things that people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. progressive.com to see what you can save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. During Memorial Day at Lowe's, shop household must-haves for less. Save $80 on the Charbroil Performance Series 4-Burner Grill to chef up something special. Plus, get up to 45% off select major appliances to keep things fresh. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Lowe's. We help, you save. Valid to 527. While supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for details. Visit your nearby Lowe's on U.S. Highway 431 South in Gunnisville. Today I'm talking with Gary Beekler. You probably know him as Nerdronic. Gary has built a media empire around pop culture commentary. Friday Night Tights, Forbidden Frontier, and a YouTube channel at Hollywood Studios now quietly track. Yes, the Hollywood finally figured out how to read the room, and the room says, We hate everything you make. Nice. But before any of this existed, Gary grew up in San Diego in the 80s. He spent years running from a trauma that he never shared with anyone. San Diego has top gun, peach valley pool, and endless amounts of potty tata. And he's running from it, but I'ma run into it. You'll the need. I feel the need! Do it or else Shing take my breath away. I'm not doing it. I feel the need. Fine. The need for speed. The need for speed. Gary eventually ended up at old Folsom State Prison. Not new falsome. Old Falsome. Johnny Cash Folsom. I didn't know there were two falses. You're not gonna like it. Well, today we cover all of it. The second grade teacher who changed his life, what it's like to share a cell with a double murderer, and how he went from sleeping in his car to building a YouTube empire. Let's go down to the basement. Yeah. Gary, welcome to the basement. Why thank you. That's embarrassing. It's all good. Um before we get started. I ask everyone this question. UFO experienced researchers, physicists are same question. Hypothetical. Desert Island, you get one choice. What flavor toilet wine? Toilet wine? What flavor? I would say Pruno. Pruno. It would have to be Pruno, uh, which is made from oranges. Oh, you go orange. Uh well, I have to. I mean, like I I would have to break my sobriety because like I'm dead, right? Like No, that's totally hypothetical. I would rather grow cocoa plants. If I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna go out good. But uh yeah, orange, uh that's that's the one I'm the most familiar with. I never touched the stuff, but I certainly helped people make it and helped people hide it. I read it. So yeah, it's it's uh it's oranges, it's i I believe it's yeast. And you let it ferment for a little while. Why do they call it toilet wine? Uh oh well um Sometimes you need to get your water from places other than they mostly get it from the sink. But I I think that's just the term they use. Plus it's usually hidden around the toilet or under a bunk. It can only last for so long because uh they uh They they search the cell pretty regularly and randomly. So it has to be I Honestly, I don't know how they do it. They were able to switch cell and Probably a guard tipped him off at at some point, you know, some bribery. But like it's in like bags. It's in trash bags. It was the weirdest thing to learn about. people making wine in the joint is And apparently it's pretty strong. Really? Yeah, it's like really, really strong wine. Strong for wine. It's not like booze though. No, no. But when you're you got a bunch of guys who haven't I bet it would. And You've had you've had alcohol before. Yes. Okay. Uh, before we go into the origin story, I know you've told it a million times. It's such a good story. Um When I was reading it, I cried at the end. And I felt myself getting angry at you during it. Especially 'cause I know you. And you're a friend, I love you. So I know how it ends. Love you too, man. And I just want to smack you in the head every every step of the way, which we're gonna get into. Um before we do the origin story. kick it off positive. What's on TV or whatever movie that you're liking right now? Uh three things have come out this year. What do you got? Uh a night of the seven kingdoms was Damn near ten out of ten. Just a great adaptation of a great novella by George R. Martin, who needs to finish his other books. It is a really simple tale of of heroism and what it means to be a knight and chivalry. And while it still has some of the Game of Thrones aspects of it, it's very it's very linear, uh and you can't help but root for both Dunk and Egg. And it was a short series. And it built momentum as time went on, and I just absolutely loved every minute of it. Uh I did too. Um I didn't start nights until it was like episode three and I started like this, just arms folded, 'cause of just angry and everybody angry at At at season six, f well that Dark Knight Angry George. I don't know how many days we are waiting for the last book. Over five thousand. Five thousand. Yeah. So and of course he's executive producer. So I watched, I don't know, I was maybe ten minutes into the first episode and I was like, Okay. They did it. If this is r this is really true to the books as I've I read those. And I love it. Number two. Uh One Piece Season Two. Absolutely loved it. Okay. Never thought I would like this show. I'm not like the biggest anime fan in the world. When I saw the trailer for season one, it looked like the worst thing I've ever seen. I love season one and I love season two. Really? I'm not an anime guy. That's interesting. It's it In the same vein of the three things I like are a night of the seven kingdoms. Project Hail Mary and One Piece. And the one thing they have in common is a positive look at the world. I'm so sick to death. I like nihilism. I did. I liked all that subversion stuff back in the 2010s when it was cool. It is so overdone. I am It's just it's cooked at this point, as the kids say. Gen Z thinks up with that. Yeah, I know that. Okay. Just want to let you know. Um no, but seeing uh heroes with a positive outlook, seeing something hopeful is nice. It's just really nice. And uh I love uh all three of those things and um you know, it makes you Makes you wonder if they can turn things around. Probably not, but you know. Was your number three Hail Mary? Hail Mary. Love Project Hail Mary. I that could S that could save Hollywood at least for a while. Uh, 'cause that brought everybody back to the theaters. Um It did, but Top Gun Maverick did the same thing that's what I was about to say. Uh three years ago, and they learned nothing from it and they thought it was just this jingoistic patriotic movie. It's like no, it was just a feel good heroic story that and The reason we go to the theater is You have to make this distinction for for popcorn movies, for tent pole movies, is to escape. Right. I don't need to be lectured to There are certainly spaces and times for those movies. Uh, you can make them all day long as independent films, but when it comes to I want to take my family or I want to just go and have a good time and turn off the rest of the world, uh, that that's when Hollywood is doing their best. And that's when they actually put good in the world. They they really love to think that they're changing the world and They're not providing entertainment. They're a platform for influence, AJ. And uh we're gonna teach those plebs out in the middle America how to think. You know, instead of just going, you know, let's just entertain them and it brings people together. And we've lost that with the division. Um, I think some in Hollywood are starting to recognize that. The problem is It's uh it's like Twitter. Before Elon took over. The cancer was there and you have to cut it out root and stem. And it's I don't think it's possible in Hollywood. I think there will be some change. But uh I think The lesson we can learn from Project Hail Mary is this is what people want. That I mean, it's just a nice hopeful story with a really dark, you know, the world is ending in it. Uh and it like it made me want to watch all the space movies. So I've I've watched two thousand one, which is amazing. Uh Interstellar Contact. Contact's ten out of ten. Contact's still the best. Contact's the best. The ending we It's okay. Arrival if that was solid. But let me push back on one thing. Sure. And this is not gonna be a political show 'cause people are gonna be surprised you're not a political guy. No. Uh Gene Roddenberry put his Politics in his shows. And we love the original series, so his politics are in there. Why do they work? They worked um Because they weren't that heavy handed. And when they approached the audience, it was in a way if you want to change somebody's mind, the I I I would I would discourage you going, Hey, bigot, listen to me. You know? That's that's not how you change people's mind. The defenses automatically go up. So what they do is they present to you the idea and it and they leave it kinda up to you. Uh in a lot of Star Trek they leave in a lot of X Files, they leave it up to you to kinda see that stuff. And uh that's that's the mark of a good writer. And we certainly know where Gene Roddenberry's uh you know politics come from, but we also have to consider the time he grew up. Uh the time he, you know, he went to not grew up, but he you know, he went to World War II. He he he's a writer who lived a life. We have writ none of the writers Not most of the writers in current Hollywood have not lived the lives of the writers of even 10 or 20 years ago. who were veterans or had careers before writing. Uh now they're just their their knowledge of the world is other T V shows and riffing other T V shows. Right. And I think Roddenberry was always story first. Mm-hmm. So his politics were there. He wanted his politics were just let's all get along, make the world a better place. But this it was always about the story. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today, Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates for multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it at progressive.com Progressive casualty insurance and affiliates, not available in all states and situations. Prices may vary on how you buy. And that's flipped a little bit with some properties. Particularly with Star Trek. Yes. Uh Star Trek lost its way and that's why right now For the first time in ten years, there's no Star Trek in production. In my humble opinion, there hasn't been any Star Trek in production in that time, except for Picard season three. I like it, but Um, I was I was the same way and I was all in on Star Trek, all of it. I'm a I'm a niner. DS9, that's that's my favorite. It's good. Um so I stuck with Discovery for a long time. Eventually I was just I was just out. I was so disappointed. And um And I never came back. Except I heard you talking about And season three was that it was like that they finally figured it out. Now, how did that h how did it happen that we got the story that we wanted as Star Trek fans? Kurtzman and Akiba Goldsman. A Kiva Goldsman's won an Academy Award, right? Um, but he's not really and and and he wrote Constantine, which is actually a good movie. Not really good at Star Trek, in my opinion, at all. And Picard season one or two are the like last Jedi of Star Trek. They're so just Picard is a broken old man. Um so It got better because Kurtzman went off to go do uh The Man Who Fell to Earth. And it was obligatory that they have they they owed Patrick Stewart a third season. So they gave him no money. Basically the entire series is a bottles. And But he had no supervision and he was able to do whatever he wanted. Um, word on the street is he was able to fire everybody he wanted to except for one person. He made that one person work. I won't say who it is, but he made that one person work and he brought back the crew and he just it was a bunch of fan service and he had to do mental gymnastics to to bring back the enterprise D and the like and it worked. It was and the funniest bit. At the end. Well They gave Star Trek fans something Star Star Wars fans didn't get. They we had the crew of the Enterprise on the Enterprise D. the end of an episode, just together, the carpet, the lighting, everything. It's all we wanted. It's all we wanted. It's all we wanted. And, you know, logic be damned. Uh and uh the best part at the end was there was a virus. from the Borg that affected only young people. It was a mind virus. So that's how they worked it out, where the old people had to come in and save the young people. It was great. Right. Are you like, are you getting it? Uh when when Wharf showed up, did you how I was screaming. Warf shut up at the scene. Michael Dorn's just still bringing it. It's my favorite. Uh my outside of the original series, that is my favorite modern Star Trek character. He w he ruled. He was the best. Yep. Uh the best moment in Picard season three for me was when Oh such fan service. It was so gratuitous. I loved it. Yep. Is when they were at the shipyard. Lo going through all the ships and you just hear the theme song woven through. Yep and I was I the tears are coming down. I was just I was a mess. You're like I didn't know I needed this I I knew I did. I knew I but I didn't know it would be executed so perfectly. Oh, it was it was just like Terry Metallus You can't deny the man loves Star Trek. love Star Trek and probably I don't know David Ellison if you're out there, 'cause of course you watch the Y files. Um That's probably the guy you should hire. That's the guy's hire. To run Star Trek right now. Mm-hmm I think he might do it. I don't know if um if Kurtzman's gonna get another project after Star Fleet of Captain. If he does, Paramount Warner Brothers are done. They're done. They're done as a company. But that 'cause that really tells you what the path is. I don't think he's coming back. I I I think he's and whenever I hear you or Drinker or people saying Star Trek is over, I know you don't mean it. I know that if if it comes back and they give you what you want, you're coming. right back. Of course. Of course. Of course. I'm a fan. I I love st Star Trek is part of your life, part of my life. We didn't have a lot of TV, not to age us too much, but we had what three channels to choose from. Three. I was lucky because I was in San Diego. So I had six. Cause we had the San Diego just and we got the LA stations. Oh, okay. So but they all played the same stuff. You know. But it was just Star Trek, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits. Um, Gilligan's Island like on heavy rotation. It's so weird you said Gilligan's Island, 'cause I was just thinking that as you said. What we watched. We watch Gilligan's Island all the time. That's not why. original Batman was always on. Uh the first superhero shows I watched were uh uh George Reeve Superman and And Adam West Batman. Yes. Same. And I thought it was you know, I was a kid, so I'm like, This is totally a serious show. This is an earnest show. I forget the name of it. Uh the book is around here somewhere. It's a story about George Reeves and the terror and the horrible life that he had. It's really worth reading. Um He's a tragedy. But he was a great Superman. Um So we've been friends for a long time. And I've been a I've been a fan of yours I probably probably during Covid, so a long time. And I know you've told your origin story a million times. You've had a lot of fans here at the studio. And I was talking to one of them just the other day and I said, Oh man, Gary's gonna tell his prison story again And she goes, What? He was in prison? So apparently people don't know. Some some people don't know. That you did. Real time. Yeah. And uh comparatively, yeah. Well uh reading reading your memoir. There were times where it was actually scared because you're so honest in it. You're really honest in it. uh which we'll get into really surprisingly honest. So When you establish that honesty very early on, like with what happened when you were a kid. Yeah. Now I never know it's gonna hap like it's like a George Martin n novel, right? You never know who's gonna die next. Because so it's established so when you're in prison, I'm just waiting for the tragedy and if eventually things do happen. Um I want to hear about The beginning. Even before Talk about it You're adopted. Yeah. Uh I was um My uh my birth mom, who I am in contact with to this very day, who's a lovely woman. Um Uh, got pregnant with me when she was sixteen. Uh she was a partier. Uh back in the sixties, you know, as the and I don't hold this against her at all. She's again, she's a wonderful Catholic, good Catholic woman now. Um and uh my my sperm donor dad, who I've never met, don't know what he looks like, don't care. Are you angry about him? Not not at all. Okay. No. I mean I I I understand he was young too. But I figured if um if he wanted to find me, he he could find me. Right. Uh I had a dad though. So I in the dad department totally taken care of. Uh so I was adopted. So we hang very young. We if you met your birth mother, you didn't ask about Your father? I've asked about him, but I've never really What did she say? She she doesn't know. She like once he was gone, he was gone. So he promised to to stay with her. He was the only thing I know about him is his name and he was a seventh day adventist. So um Okay. Wasn't practicing very well, I guess. Was he good to her? Up until the end, yes. Okay. Yeah, up until the end. And he said he'd stay Uh, and this would be a qu she doesn't really talk about it a bunch and I don't push, but he had promised to stay and then he took off. Okay. Uh and he was at the time I think eighteen. So it's like I kind of get it. Yeah. That's why it's okay. You know, I kind of get it. Yeah, I I'm not um was I angry about it when I was younger? Absolutely, but I'm not now. Um When did you find out you were adopted? Very early. Um I think my parents told me when I was s seven. When you were seven, six or seven. Yeah. How did that conversation start? Uh what little I remember of it, uh my mom and dad both just wanted to like They sat down and go. We love you. The same as Terry, you know, but we have to tell you this. That's it's foggy, that conversation. But uh I remember it tripping me out a for a listen, if you're adopted, it it I'm sure it affects people differently, but it affects you. It does. It's like I you you you don't feel wanted. Um, and you're always thinking about That person who like who just dumped you. What does she look like? Right. Why did she do this, you know. Um Why did why were you rejected. Yeah. And you're trying to deal with stuff like that when you're like seven years old. So uh I used to uh yeah, I used to like have a little fantasies about it when I was a kid, but like honestly, it I never Got mad at my parents about it and other than feeling the abandonment, um When is a good age to tell us an adoption? Boy, I don't know if there's ever a good I think early as possible is the best way to do it. Seven feels really hard. Yeah. But if you wait too long. True. It's true. I yeah, I don't know. Honestly, I don't know a good answer to that question, but it they it it softened the blow with me, because it again, it's gonna affect you no matter what. So do you affect um early or late? That's on the parent to do that. I don't have a good suggestion for that, but for me it wasn't terrible. Well, you were kind of a little asshole. Yes. For a long time. Long time. Do you think uh Some might argue I still am. Some might. Uh I wouldn't. You but but you're kind of an asshole. You're poor parents, man. Mm-hmm. Reading the book, I'm like, you they're still sticking with this kid. Um if they had told you a little later, do you think you would have been a little more Chill. Maybe. I'm just w 'cause there's an undercurrent of anger in your origin story. Yeah. Railing against the man, authority, all of that. It's the anger is coming from somewhere 'cause when you're eleven or twelve. don't really know anything. So what are you angry about? So if they waited. If they waited, I don't think it would have helped my anger. Uh, maybe a more mature twelve th 'cause I wasn't super mature. But that was because of the things that happen I I if if anything that made me angry, we can talk about like what happened to me in school. Let's do it. It's just way worse than finding out uh I was adopted was I was uh molested by a teacher, by a school teacher. So Help uh I was in second grade. So whatever age second grade is. Six or seven. Yeah. So right around the same time. Right around the same time. That's a busy year. That's a Were you singled out by that teacher? Um, I don't know. It it felt like I was. But I honestly don't know. Um And he was brazen about it. Like he would. Uh that like during uh we were watching a Disney movie. Maybe this is why I hate Disney. Um We were watching a Disney movie and he pulled me in the back. And while the kids are watching and did stuff, right? Um, I I was about to say nothing horrible, but no, it was horrible. Of course it was. It was all horrible. Right. So this I I if you want to like put a finger on my deep distrust of the government, the system, uh my p I don't like teachers unions. Because they protect This is not AJ, this is me. Um, they protect people like this. Yep. And it's been proven that they do this. uh and they don't do anything about it. Uh so It really set me up to completely fail in school, not trust any adult, not trust any Authority. So there's definitely anger there that you're carrying. You didn't tell anyone about what the teacher's doing, right? No. Parents knowing. No, didn't tell the uh as a matter of fact, I got um When one day was particularly bad. failed on s on school. I just walked out of school in the city. Second grade walking yeah, in second grade. So there's a little second grader walking home on this busy uh La Costa Avenue, if you're familiar with Southern California. Little second grader. And people started noticing that. They called the school. Bus driver came and got me. And uh I got in trouble. I got in huge trouble for it. That's interesting. And I couldn't say what what I was You know, they're all, why'd you leave? That would make any kid angry. Yep. 'Cause I hear you are taking the heat for it and you have no idea what I've been through. Um, I was angry at that teacher the whole way through your book. Uh I know you were through your sobriety, we'll get to that. But um H how you got through that is it is amazing. I don't know if I could. So uh Second grade. When did you start? Far after that, uh I broke I wanted a toy. And um knew where the spare key was and broke into my friend's house got caught by his dad. You know, like all this this is at a single digit. Single digit broke into my first house. I mean a theme. Just because I wanted something. Throughout your book you're just the worst criminal ever. You're just not good at it, Gary. No, I'm not good at it. Stupid as hell. Still am, by the way. Uh but yeah, it just You know, I just like I I remember I remember getting caught. Of course. Yeah. And uh Yeah, I went home and uh They told my dad and I got in a huge amount of trouble, but it it never discouraged me. No, it didn't. You kept going back. I kept doing it. What about substances, booze and stuff? When did that start? That started uh God, eleven, ten, eleven, twelve. Um How is that even around an eleven year old? Well, Pot was around. Sure. Pot was around, but um first time I I really got drunk was at uh Roscoe, South Dakota. Yeah, Centennial. Yeah, centennial. And there was like half drinking beers laying around and I'm like, oh, just wanna try this. Cause my dad would let me sip a beer. Sure. So I saw everybody else getting drunk. I'm like, uh, let's try it. And I loved it. I was like, oh, so I'm drinking like people I don't know what the hell's in this can. I just I didn't care. You love the drink or you love the feeling? I love the feeling. The drink tasted like sh crap. Yep. Yep. I've never liked the taste of alcohol. But the escape is pretty good. Yep. That's where it all started. I'm like, oh, this is for me. This is for me. And then it went to pot and uh not. Uh not too far after that. Um a friend of mine like laid out a a a line of of of crystal meth. Which is a lot, I guess, a lot different now than it was back then. It was call crank back then. How old do you know when the Uh this is Junior high. Are you holding now? You have anything decent? Good. Nothing good? No. No. I've got some nicotine things that there you go. There you go. Yeah, I I have one bad habit still. I I vape. That is not your only bad habit, but that's fine. Well not right now. No, so okay. So I'm So where's your crank? Who are you hanging out with? I didn't see I didn't I hardly saw pot growing up. And it's not like Oh, this was just my friends in junior high, and it and I was uh a jock early on. So I was hanging out with the jocks. Football. Football basketball. So I played tight end, I played linebacker, I was also Hunter I was back up quarterback. So I was pretty good. I was you know, for a for a white boy in like all white boy county. Yep. But um Yeah, so he lays out a line for me and I did it. And then I'm like, what's it do? I had no idea what it did. He's all uh you get your homework done today. And I got my homework done. I'm like This is great. It it makes me excited about everything I hate. Cause school never really worked for me. And I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who feel the same way. Um, it just I was uh I think the best At best I was a C student when I paid attention, but it never captured my attention. This is before drugs. It just never interested me. Um This is basically Adderall. Yeah. It it's I mean, people c they called it hyperactive back then. I was considered a hyperactive child. Yep and Uh, it did I mean it did focus me for a little while. It it it did, but uh look I'm on that stuff, I've used that stuff, I struggle with drinking too much, I go sober on and off. I struggle with it on and off. I totally feel all of this. You just went you went harder, but I totally get all of it and that feeling of just clarity. of all the chaos and your and the ADHD mind is very, very intriguing. Of just like oh my goodness, I could be productive. Yeah. And it's it it was the first time like, maybe there's something wrong with me. Like I've heard that before, but it was the first time I'm like Oh. If this stuff works on me, that can't be good. I even knew that then. Yeah. Uh but the fact is it works and it makes it makes me focused for the first time. The thing is, though, that's not exactly true because I would focus like crazy on stuff I was interested in. Like, I would focus on comics and entertainment and all the stuff my dad and my mom said wasn't important. And they were wrong, you know? They said it wasn't important. Uh and I wouldn't pay attention to anything I was supposed to. And it it eventually got me out of like the things I did love, sports. got me out of those and then I started hanging around. with all the bad kids. 'Cause once I started Doing the drugs, I'm like, Well I need to hang around the people who are doing the drugs. Yeah, who have the drugs. And you're not really going to school anymore, right? No. No. I started ditching in uh freshman year. And I managed to squeak out uh sophomore year. then that was it. Uh I got uh kicked out of uh Sanguito High School. Hang on one second. Hey Haley get get Jen in here. Um Started using when the meth started when you were what, about thirteen? Yep. Fourteen? How are you getting the money for that? How am I getting the money for that? Well, at first it was Friends had the money and they shared it and it was kind of like normal. Um, I had a paper route. Um but Did you get the paper route saying I need drug money? No, no, no, that was that was normal. That was normal. But um Mm. Right away stealing? Like right away. I would get jobs. The jobs came later, that like when I was sixteen. Uh my first job was at Burger King. Come sit on my lap. Okay. Oh boy. Stage directions. Okay. So Gary bounces around a couple of high schools. He's not he's not doing he's not doing well. Okay. He goes to I guess the high school for bad kids, right? Yeah. This is this is just a s just a quick scene, have a seat. Okay from Gary's memoir. Okay. Uh your your stage direction. I'm the teacher. Alright. And Gary's Gary. We'll start with stage direction, interior, sunset high school. Okay. Oh God, sunset. Interior Sunset High School Classroom Day. The last bell rings, students file out. Gary Beakler, seventeen, wiry, restless, stay seated at his desk, but not by choice. He watches the other kids leave with the dead eyed patience of someone who's been through this before. The teacher, mid forties, waits behind his desk, jaw tight until the room empties, a long beat of silence. Then he stands, walks slowly to Gary's desk, and looks him dead in the eye. I've had enough of you. Gary doesn't flinch. He looks right back. Yeah, is that right? It absolutely is. I've had more, then my feel of view way more. You don't say. Yeah, I do. I do say. You're wasting my time, be clear, you're wasting everyone's time here. We both know you don't belong here at sunset. You're never going to amount to anything ever, and as far as I'm concerned, I want you out of here. Gary stands up slowly. No fear, no hesitation. Really? Really. Uh I've got the most amazing coincidence to share with you. I I want the same goddamn thing. So here's my idea. What if you go fuck yourself? The teacher's face goes red. He starts screaming, a full blown, unhinged adult meltdown. Gary's never seen anything like it. Bigler You can't talk to a teacher like that, you useless piece of shit. They stare each other down, a long electric beat. Gary thinks a couple of seconds then he makes his decision. He punches the teacher square in the mouth, hard. The teacher goes down fast, he doesn't come back up. Gary looks at him on the floor, looks at the door, he walks out. Mm-hmm. Fade to black. Fade to black. That was the end of my school career. Wow. punched him right in the mouth. Yep. That was a tense scene because I'm I was waiting for him to punch you. I was hop I wanted him to. I wanted him to punch you. And that was the end of your school career? That was it. Press charges? Um no. Nope. Nothing. I mean Dodged another bullet. Uh and I was partying so hard. If they could they could have pressed charges or told my parents, wouldn't have mattered. Like I was pretty much gone at that point. What are they what are your parents trying to? Are they trying to intervene or are they just My parents have given up at that point. How do what do you mean given up? They're still letting you stay? Uh no, they they booted me. So the right yeah, they booted me. No, it was the greatest act of love my father ever showed me. Uh, my father Arvin Beekler. Uh, he passed away in in the early two thousands from cancer and uh Was a great man. And uh I didn't recognize that. He was a great man. Yep. Yep. And uh greatest act of love he ever showed me was to give me the boot. And I'm I'm and not look back and I'm sure it killed him inside. Uh at the time, I thought he was a complete asshole and couldn't care less if he lived or died. Uh my mom would would Enable. I was able to manipulate my mom and enable at times when I needed to, but mostly I was I was on my own. On the streets. We'll keep it chronological, but just as sidebar. Uh Your story about your dad. I had the same story with the cancer and the internet. It sucks. It sucks to watch it pal my dad was a superhero to watch him get cancer just kick his ass. Yeah. Dad ever forgive you? Yes, we we reconciled and we actually got really close. uh towards the the last uh right when I got out of uh w won't get too far ahead, but after prison, we were the best of friends. Absolute the best of friends. I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah. Um because I couldn't believe they stuck with you. I couldn't either. Alright, so you're He punched the teacher in the mouth. No charges. What happens next? What are you sev sixteen? Sixteen, and it's just pure chaos. Um staying uh Mostly staying at my friend's house. I mean, all the names were changed to protect the innocent and guilty. Right. So this is Bobby. Uh yes. And we stayed at the it was called the Crystal Palace. People from Encinitas will know it. Uh so you'll know who I'm talking about. at the time in the eighties. And it was just a party house. It was it was a it was not unlike the Crass House. in the UK if you're familiar with the story of the Craft House, except there's no creativ well, there was some creativity going on. But it was mostly just drugs. Um uh his dad was a bartender and would be Gone all day and when he came back, he was just checked out and didn't care. So drunk. Drunk, completely drunk, completely alcoholic. So this is perfect. Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Great. We had run away. We had girls over all the time. And we were not like the coolest kids in school. You were But we became that because we threw the parties and it it was for a while it was like lots of fun. And that was my like found family for a little while. Of course it w all went to shit. Pretty quick. You uh you seem to know pretty early on that you are making bad decisions that are you're gonna have to pay for one day. Mm-hmm How early, how young, did you realize this is a bad decision. I'm doing it anyway. But this is not gonna end well. Yeah, um I I never thought I'd live to thirty. Yeah I'm like, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna ride this out. Now I was not ever like suicidal. Uh, but I'm like uh, you know, this uh But I never really gave it a ton of thought about the con I knew the consequences were there, but I'm like, that's tomorrow. That's tomorrow. That's tomorrow. I'm gonna get see because when you know It's the worst one day at a time ever. It is. That's why they teach you one day at a time because that's pretty much how the addict goes about. It is just today I need to I either have my drugs when I w if I wake up in the morning if I'm not up all night. Or um I gotta find my drugs. And it's it's It's like feeding. It's like a shark feeding. You you have to have that. And then everything else can happen in jobs and friends relationships, friends, girlfriends. None of that matters because the drugs are your God. Uh, and that's where the disease portion comes in. I think a lot of people fight back on this and uh and I get it. I get it. It's not a disease in the sense of you know, like Parkinson's or or cancer. It's it's a disease way worse. It it's a disease that requires a conscious decision. So it um I think if anybody ever used the disease As an excuse. to you know to relieve them of any responsibility. That's that's not that's not what it means. It just means that our brain chemistry is different. um and not necessarily good. So we have an addictive personality to where, you know, there's just some people who can Drink half a beer and leave it on the country. I was never that person. And I don't think any addict is. Uh and I drink till it till it's till it's dark black. T it's gone. Yeah. Yeah. But I was like that with my my Halloween candy. Like I couldn't I I ate it all one night. You were instructed not to do that. Yes. So Crystal Palace. sixteen, seventeen. I guess we can fast forward to Bobby's in the back seat, what way not baggy's. 'Cause you're 'cause you're dealing a little bit, right? Yep. Mostly using, but dealing a little bit to make some cash. Yeah, d I was dealing to pretty much my friends or a couple of older people. Uh, but I knew everybody. I was deal I was never dealing to to strangers or uh it was usually just my fellow teenagers. It's part of the party. Yep. I was terrible at it. That was awful. So Bobby's in the back. You're driving your is you I think you this is your Oldsmobile? Yeah, sixty seven Oldsmobile. It was sweet, twenty two thousand miles on it. It was a sweet car. Got it from a little old lady who was a neighbor of my grandma. Always the little old ladies where the good cars come from. Yeah. Uh. Didn't end well for the olds either. So you're driving the old, Bobby's in the back way, not baggy's whoop whoop. Here we go. And You didn't get into it too much, but you knew this lady cop. Uh yes. How did you know her? Uh she had busted us on enough times for like curfew. uh and and just little minor stuff, but uh little scraps here and there. But we used to hang out at uh uh Pim uh Pinball Plus. It was a arcade. It was in a there was not much to do in southern California in the eighties, in San Diego. It is suburbia. So if there is an arcade, that's where every kid's gonna go. And that's what we did. Same. So uh they started enforcing a curfew. So that's how we we we knew each other and she really hated me, but I had uh she hated you because of your attitude. Yeah, my attitude was shit. Like she had a good reason to. It's not like she didn't 'cause this anti authority thing is goes through all this, right? She's and she's the man. So she knocks on the windows. Hey Gary. Yeah. And you were You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a US-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims. Your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident restoration is guaranteed for your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 30% your first year at lifelock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. Hi officer. Hello. And uh well, there's the Batman handcuffs right. So uh That's right. Is that why you got pulled over? I got pulled over for Batman handcuffs hanging off my rear view mirror as an instruction, but she saw me. She saw me and found an excuse. And yeah, so we got busted. Um and Tossed the car. Yeah, I tossed it. You said she looked, she found that Found the meth and it was like she hit the lottery. Uh it was the greatest day of her life. I absolutely been waiting for this all scale. Scale. Scale. Intense distribute. Yep. Scale I told him to keep it. But he didn't. And uh that was the first time I really went to jail. No, that That's it. Yeah. That was uh I went for a you know, a couple weeks, a couple three weeks, couple. Hold on a second. You go in, you get booked. I come from a cop family. I have this first. Yeah. You get booked, you get separated and w and they wanna know the story when they're when they're writing you up. Uh-huh. Bobby fingered you, yeah. Yeah, he did. 'Cause you were just driving. I that's I told the truth. I was just driving. I d but nobody's gonna believe that it wasn't mine. But it really wasn't. But he's all no, it was his. So you didn't snitch. I did. Bobby did. And this and you go to jail? Yeah. And uh this is the first time so we're in San Diego County jail. And it's uh it's down uh near Union Street, downtown. U C Street. Are you f uh f nervous? You frighten? Oh totally. Totally. Like this is like what the hell is going on. And then we're, you know. Do you show it? Or you try to Be tough. I try to be tough. Don't know how much I pulled it off. Luckily the chaos of the place probably kind of hid that because it was just a big dorm, right? And it was a big receiving dorm. Um you didn't know at this point that this is nothing. Oh, no clue. Nothing. No clue. Uh got got out of that one. Well how how did mom and dad handle that? Uh, not very well, but my dad got a lawyer and said this is the one time I'll help you. If I'm if I remember correctly. You technically got the lawyer, right? Yeah. Well, yes. What do you say through the glass? Oh, the the lawyer? Yeah. Uh well I d Do you know what I had to give up to get this lawyer, right? I do. They don't. Okay. Uh I had to give up uh a an oldsmobile. The Oldsmobile, the sixty seven old. 'Cause your dad said I'm gonna get you this lawyer, but you're gonna pay for it. Yes, yes. And you said, Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Of course. Of course. I didn't even think twice about it. I mean it it hurts now because I'm like, maybe I could have stayed an extra week. But I had to give up that and uh like the engine was it was spotless, dude. Like um the painting on the you know I'm having to go off memory, but it said spit fire engine on it. It was painted in red and it was all original and was all still there. Was it three fifty? Yeah. Oh yeah. Three fifty. So your dad must have been so proud. His his baby boy found his way. All problems are solved. Uh no. Dad was not happy uh about any of this. And they uh, you know, you gotta get clean. They did all that stuff, and I just kept partying. I just, you know, once once once I was out. And still booze and meth, right? Booze booze and meth. It became more meth. I was way more into speed 'cause like, I don't know, I I I smoke pot, I I I drank, but anything that kind of makes you feel tired, I was never really into. What's funny is like well, it's not funny. You and I would have got along so well. I would have been a great customer. Oh yeah Oh yeah, when when when I can find like alternatives, I never like in the early days, maybe did That's later. But uh we found like Dexadream and the diet pills and stuff. Like, oh yeah. I'm familiar. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Love that stuff. Me too. Um So Now you start Breaking into houses, right? Yeah. Yeah, pretty regularly. Cars and houses. Cars and houses. And uh there was one. That was so stupid. It's so stupid. It's so heavy. Can you can you tell that story? Well, is this okay. Well there's a lot of them are still the one with the the pennies. Okay. So this is This is so retarded. Um okay. This is this shows you the insanity of drugs. I can't remember who I was with now. We um some guy looked like he was in the almond brothers, right? I think you guys all look like that. Half the people I'm hanging with at this point, I don't even know. Uh, so I get this great idea that we need uh money. Uh, I had none, but I know for a fact that my neighbor has this the water bottles when they were glass, I think some of them still are. I had one filled full of pennies. And I'm like, well, there's gotta be like a hundred bucks in there, a couple of hundred bucks, maybe, you know? Um Didn't think very much about like how heavy it would be. Right? Right. So I I'm I knew how to get in their house and I'm a genius. I cut a hole in the chain link fence. Thinking I You're just providing a trail of evidence. Yeah, providing a trail uh I might as well have just like left bread crumbs out and said, This is Gary. I wish I could see your face when you go to grab the penny and you go, Uh Yeah, and I'm like oh shit. This is really heavy. And I wasn't like in the best shape of the world. Um, so I yeah, I get away with it for uh little while, but then eventually I get caught. Yeah, but I got I went and lost a year of my life. You did a year for the pennies? For the pennies. A water bottle full of pennies. Still county? Still county at this point. So we Yeah, you uh I went to Is this before the Porsche incident? Yes. Oh God, okay. So so it was um Yeah, I I I did county jail and this is the fire camp and all that, so So you were You're Like almost a volunteer fireman while you were in there. Yep. Yep. Serving the community, getting exercise outside and you still Screwed it up. Absolutely screwed up almost immediately. I was in the best shape of my life. Uh I got hurt. So uh I was able to manipulate that that injury. How did you get hurt? I broke my tailbone. First time. Yeah, yeah, I broke my tailbone. Uh, fucking around. Um I was walking down a a mountain and I was like pretending I was skiing. I was and I slipped and busted my tailbone. But I was able to like manipulate that into getting into a a halfway house, right? Uh So, you know, the last little bit of my sentence wasn't too bad. Right? I got to, you know, go out once in a while. So you you get out, uh fast forward a little bit, uh you go back to using, dealing, all that, and I I forget how the chapter started, but it may if the chapter started something like You thought it would be a good idea uh to get a gun and I've got an idea how to get one. Yes. And I went, Oh no. I never had a gun and uh I was like this this is how stupid it is. So I didn't need to do anything. I no no. I I I I had a bunch of money. Yep. I had a Bunch of drugs. All I had to do was Get high and have fun. I'm like, you know, I know a good way to screw this up. Sure. I need a gun. So I'm gonna go to an ex girlfriend's house to her dad's gun collection. I'm gonna break in while they're there. Some bored. You know, whatever. um was behind that. It wasn't it wasn't like suicide or is like I'm gonna go to off myself. No, it was just like I want a gun. Never rob a gun guy's house. No, go on. That's really Go on. That's really dumb. So I get in. You get into the garage, right? I get in through the garage on the side door. And go into the house. And there's a little dog. So little dogs are the absolute best security. Big dogs you can feed 'em or pet 'em and Like some of 'em. Not all, but Little dogs will just bark and bark and bark and bark and where this this little shit dog was barking like crazy. So I'm like, Okay, I gotta I gotta pull the eject on this one. I gotta get out of here. But hold on just a quick second. A little bit of the real Gary shows through here 'cause in your book you say you thought for a second about killing the dog. Yes. I could I could have just like strangled the dog and uh at that point it wouldn't have mattered. Uh, 'cause you could I could probably strangle it and you would have stopped barking. Mm-hmm Uh, but there's no way I'm gonna kill a dog. There's just no way in hell I was gonna kill a dog. So it's like, okay, time to go. And Uh Went through the garage door and this is where, like, you start thinking about higher power and And uh fate. The the door I just used to get in the side door for the garage, the door handle falls off. Just falls off. It's so cinematic, this this story. Go on, so you're stuck in there. Can I hide under a Porsche? Just not a lot of room to hide under. And uh her dad I've got a gun in my you know, pulls me out. So you s but you see the feet, right? I see the feet. This is like in in a movie. And then well he can see me too, so Of course he knows what's going on. So I get out, I see the feet, I'm like I'm just waiting to get I'm like, Oh, I guess I'm not getting out of this one. Right. And then I've got a gun in my face. Did he say did he recognize you, no? Uh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah. So hey Gary, now there's a gun on your face. Now there's a gun in my face and he's mad as hell and his hand is shaking. You can see the bullet in the chamber and I'm like, oh Um, and I got my life saved by a cop. You know, a cop they called the cops and I didn't get shot in the face. Uh and I'm sure you heard you know, the cop like Yeah, he's on the Navy pistol team. That guy could have shot you from fifty yards right between the eyes. He probably wanted to. Probably to. And uh I ended up writing him a letter, like later on. So During your recovery. Yeah, during my recovery. That was like a make amends type of thing. Never heard back, but I'm sure he got it. That's important. Yeah, yeah. But that was when I went in for a long 'cause I had the prior. Now you've got priors and now I guess it's uh It's a hot prowl, so D and E? It's a first degree burglary. First degree burglary, yeah. So I guess uh you go to county for booking, but you were not gonna stay in county. No no. This was uh I go in the c county uh until we you know sentencing and everything and then it's off to prison. Uh you get uh a little bit of time served. premier time in county. Off to prison. Before you go to prison, you're in county and um Just talk a little bit about that because I remember there was a there was a dude in there who gave you advice that was kind of interesting. 'Cause there's also there's the fear of prison, then you're going to all these places, but there's also a weird brotherhood and camaraderie and kind of looking out for each other sometimes. Yeah. And This guy gave you advice was I I thought was very strange, but it worked out. Yeah, I maybe I was I mean, I was twenty two at the time, so I I look like a Pop and uh yeah, somebody Took sympathy on me and and just like, Hey, you're gonna go to prison. Here's here's some rules. You know, pr they're pretty basic rules and I'll paraphrase what's in the book. I'll try to keep it No take your time. Politically correct. But it was well, you know, don't mess with uh gambling. Uh, don't mess with the gays. That's not the word he used. Now hold on a second. I I think that advice is before you go in to Folsom. I'm talking about the guy who said you're gonna get plea deal take it. Oh yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Sorry so yes. Um I'm gonna get a plea deal. Absolutely take it. Don't fight it because if you don't, you will do end up doing a lot more time. Um so he says go in there, be cool. And you'll get out. Just take take your time. There's no way fighting this. You're you're going to prison. Like and I you know, I knew that. Uh and we were looking at I got the mid sentence. So I got everything he said I was gonna get. What'd you get? I got I got four years, but you do two. How did you feel when you turned around at the courthouse and saw mom and dad sitting there? Horrible is the worst feeling in my life. looking at your parents uh in the face after you get sentenced to uh four years in prison and uh they adopted you, they raised you. Did your father look at you? Uh Yeah. It was it was Pretty shameful. It they look crushed. They look crushed. Yeah, 'cause they stood by you through all of this. But it was uh Yeah, that was tough, man. That was uh not not good. And uh Than getting in that bus. And uh. Hours and like Shackled up. It's just like what you think is in the movie is how this is Just as bad as you think it is, is how this is. And When did you find out you were going to Going to old Folsom. You're going to the you're going to the Johnny Cash. I got ahead of that. Sorry. Um it was uh 'cause you're not supposed to go there, I don't think. No, no, no. Um they were doing something they shouldn't have been doing, but it's due to overcrowding. So I stayed Donovan was a receiving facility in San Diego. I got stuck there for four months usually stay there for like a month. Name. Um I was a level two. So not considered even though Um First degree burglary is considered a violent crime. I was not considered violent in the sense of armed robber or murder or rape or any of the horrible ones. Uh those are level three, level four. So I find out I'm going to Folsom and there's two Folsoms there's new Folsom at the time, and it still is. Is that first facility is that alcohol? Uh, Donovan. So it's uh it's east of Elcoh. It's like in Otie Mesa. No, uh but Elcahone was a facility you were in, right? So Elcahone was a county jail. Elcahone was that's the one where there was the breakout. Oh yeah, you were there for the breakout. Quick little side story here. So Elk there's a the biggest building in El Cahone, California, which is the box. Which I mean that's what it you know. Uh and it's and it's in the eastern part of of San Diego. So it's not well, probably all the houses are are million dollar houses that are now, but at the time wasn't looked at as the nicest place in the world. So the Toss building was the jail. And apparently the contractor. Cut a little cut some corners and didn't reinforce the walls with whatever they're supposed to reinforce of concrete or steel or whatever. So it was just stucco. And framing. Oh no. And somebody figured it out. Someone just knocked on it and said, That feels pretty hot. So let's let's break off the bottom of our bunk and just punch a hole in it. And you can look it up. It was in the eighties, the big breakout that got it closed. And you was there. You saw and you saw them escaping, right? Yeah. Did you think Hey, I'm gonna get in on that. Uh, I thought about it for a second and then I'm like, well, for one, that's a long way down. Uh and I'm like, no, I'm just gonna do my thing. That was that was the first time around. So I'm glad I did that. You know, I'm glad I did I Uh listen they caught everybody, didn't they? They caught everybody and one of the guys busted his leg because they did the whole tying the sheets together crap. Yeah, they did. Cause it was up there. Yeah. You know, it was like I can't remember the exact amount of stories, but it was at least five. And they caught everybody. Mm-hmm. And then they could shut down the jail. The problem was they locked us down after that for for two weeks and they weren't feeding us all the time. So what does lockdown really mean locked uh lockdown is you are in your cell. You Without with with one celly? Uh no, with like six. So you're there with six guys for weeks. Being fed. Through the bars. Through the bars. One toilet. Supervised shower like once we I think we got two, right? Supervised shower. Oh, it's just rank. It was rank. So we were I was I remember eating ketchup packets 'cause that's all I had to eat. And we had Uno. You you just played Uno. And had one book to I think one book between us. It's like it was terrible. It was terrible. At least it wasn't magic. Right. It could always be worse. Uh but yeah, so uh the pr on the prison side. Yeah Uh go to Folsom and we find out that uh they're doing this transition thing. So They're turning old Folsom into a level two. And they're removing all the level four guys and they're putting them up to Pelican Bay. And level four guys are the hardcore. They're murderers. Rapists. And they're gonna throw you pups in with them. Worst of the worst than they did. And they did. Yeah. So we had level twos and with level fours, which is you're just not supposed to do that. Um because the la the last thing a guy with a life sentence wants to hear is uh the the stories from a guy who's gonna get out in a couple of years. That's a recipe for disaster. Well, you're walking in, um, shackles, chains. And w you you've got your long hair. Yep. And I guess is that your first prison taunt? Oh yeah. Yeah. This is just like the 90s, man. In in Donovan never really got any shit. I think everybody in the receiving part is just kind of like Hins and needles waiting to figure out where to go. So uh and it's way more supervised. Um It's like max, max, max there. Cause 'cause you are mixing in all the levels because but it it's it's you know, you spend most of your time in your cell. It's not a ton of yard time. Uh, and I never spent much time in the yard, but well yeah, when I walk into Folsom, got my beautiful long blonde hair. And uh shows you how much I've aged. And uh Yeah. Guy goes, uh hey Goldilocks, you want my sack lunch? I'm like, I need to cut my hair. You know? Uh, and it was right when I walked. So I knew it was to me, by the way. Like I'm I they were they were they had us in a line and then we're feeding them in and like there's this big just wall of cells. You're terrified and now you go up to eleven? Yeah. Yeah. Uh twelve. Like beyond terrified. And it like it doesn't really stop. But it doesn't stop. Oh, it's uh balls. It's your balls. No, yeah Okay Um so now you're going through the rules that you're that someone told you. Here he you're go you're going Gladiator School as you called it. Yep. Oh God. Which it was. Uh so now you're going through the rules. And you gotta get rid of the hair. Gotta get rid of the hair. Uh And what are some of the rules you're thinking as you're as you're So the rules I was told that I was referring to earlier are do not gamble, do not mess with Gays. No problem. No interest in in those. Just be polite and leave them low. Do not Do drugs. Do not mess with any drugs. Um, and at that point in my life, I'm like, you know what, I'm not gonna mess with any drugs. I don't know. I've I had already decided like if I survive this, I'm done. I cannot do this. And then um do not snitch. No matter what. And if you're gonna fight Hey sweetie, your mother uh show me this Carvana thing uh for selling the car. I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again, I put in the license plate, it gave me an offer. Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check. Anyway, Carvana, give it a whirl. Love ya. So good, you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up These May Apply. You have to fight. You can't back down from a fight. Right. Don't don't start trouble. But start trouble don't take it. But don't take it. Yep. But the most important one of them all is don't snitch. Or you will die. Bobby. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So, um. I don't mean to drag it out, but it's fascinating. It's okay. So sack lunch. How do you how do you get it you get you have to get your hair cut in like thirty yard. You have thirty yards to solve this problem. Immediately it was for a pack of smokes. It was a terrible haircut, but it did the job. It's like Didn't a guard help you? Yeah. Yeah. Help you grab scissors or something? Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's I I mean they There is some humanity in there, right? Like they see this little pop and it's like this guy's gonna get detreded in here. So that's that's well my best guess, but I got I got my hair cut. I got help. Um Guards aren't always helpful though. Okay. Just keep that in mind. They're they're they're humans, so there's some good ones and there's some Pieces of crap. in there. And uh I spend the next I'm I'm behind the wall. Or a good year, right? So um I'm not sure. Don't go to the R, don't go to the gym. Yeah, yeah. Which I did not do. But there were some times that you had to get away from your first cellmate 'cause he I mean, when you land in the room with him, how does that go down? Oh, it's bad. It's bad. Yeah, yeah. He's he's double murderer. He's a piece of crap. Um What did he look like? Um He was uh uh just a Like a kind of a flabby but big white dude. Uh it's um brown hair, a little grayish. Uh uh, but he was not old. He was not that old. I'm just trying to see feel how imposing he is for a bigger than me. He's bigger than me, for sure. So how's that first meeting go? Uh Scared to death, you know? Uh a and he's he just gives me the rules. Pretty much tells me. You know, I don't wanna hear from you. You know. Um, he has his TV and it and I'm like, Well, maybe I could just uh Wait this one out. I but it just it didn't work out. Well he he didn't like he's a level four of this guy. He's a level four. And he doesn't want to hear about you getting out in two. Nope. Nope. So I was really good at being quiet when I needed to be. What were you doing to kill time? Uh to kill mostly reading books. 'Cause there was another rule about stay insane, wasn't there? Yeah. What was that? Oh the uh Find a routine. Yes, find okay, yes. Stick to it. So the thing about The the best advice I heard is, and like people do this in prison all the time. So I didn't invent it. This is just passed down, is find a routine. You get up at the same time, you kind of do the same things every day. And it what it does is it helps you feel accomplished, because we as humans need to feel some accomplishment. So I I found a little routine that worked in behind the wall and then when I when I went on and uh it really helps the time go faster. It keeps you busy. So you're not sitting there. You need to have that routine so you're not sitting there just tripping. All the time. You talk about how Kyle was like mentally torturing you this whole time. What was what was he doing? 'Cause he wasn't physic abusing you. No. He was just always What was he 'cause I You write about how it was just constant. He was just always just messing with you. Always messing with my head. Always. Um He would uh He would always question uh w like w everything I was doing, like what are you reading? What's your pro he would never let me have peace, right? Cause I would try to mind my own business and stay there. And he'd always try to start some weird conversation that would go to a weird place and ask me weird questions and then bring up Like his crimes. You know, and what he did. And you knew he was just trying to torture you. Yep. Trying to fuck with me all the time. Uh and And it then he'd be nice a little while and then it would flip. You know, uh but we you bring up the pruno, right? We can talk about uh when I don't want to get too far ahead, but no I know when we're gonna take our break. Oh yeah. So gone. Uh the p he's he was making some pruno and hiding it and he was gone. And the guard is the guards are coming in to do uh to do an inspection. And I'm I'm there because I don't go out very much. Right. So I dumped it. You dumped His pruno. Yep. Did you know that decision? You uh did you How long You know what you're doing. You know you're gonna have to deal with this. Yeah. But you figure what? You're saving him? Or are you like I'm gonna this is gonna go sideways. This is uh the this at my decision making at the time was not really even a cover, it was cover both of our asses, right? But it was 'cause you were going Yeah, because I'm there, so I'm gonna get caught with it. And he's the cellmate, so he's gonna get busted too, and there's all this stuff going through my head. Where, oh, you know, you think about the snitching thing. Right. It's gonna make me Either way look like a snitch. So I'm like And you're watching them toss cells getting closer as you're doing this. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, uh I'm gonna dump this stuff and And Kyle by the way is out in the yard lifting weights. Yeah, lifting weights. Lifting weights. So uh I got rid of it and it's it's gone by the time the guard I saved his ass, my well, his ass. Yeah. His ass. Uh wasn't exactly grateful. About that at all. Um and wanted me to repay whatever it was owed uh whatever that value of that pruno was. Um and uh and did not let me forget it so ever. He wanted you to put uh Money is account, right? Money on his books. Money on his books. Twenty bucks for the pruno. I want it. Uh. You did it? And thought it was good. And I don't know how soon after that, but he said, I need twenty bucks. Yeah, it it it it w it just became the You know. I need twenty more. And then once you capitulate a little bit, you know, that's just the way it is. And that's that's this is part of like don't be a bitch. That's right. Right? This is part of don't be a bitch. And I I should have said, Fuck you You know, at that point and probably fought at that point. Well you didn't give him twenty more, right? No. No, and it and it got worse. It gets worse and um You get back to the cell. And he's going through Your stuff. Yep. What's he doing? He's going through mom's uh Uh my letters. going through my letters. And this whole time parents are supporting you. They're putting money on your books. You're covered. Yep. You have support from the family. This guy's got nothing. He hates you. He hates everything about me. He hates the books I read. I mean, like he's giv he gave me shit for books I read. He wanted you to fight. He's been trying to taunt me to fight the whole time. And um Well, he finally got what he wanted. So Uh, he he's going through my letters. Uh my my parents and I, by the way, are contacting and they're, you know, they're sending me like little care packages and making sure I'm okay. They're worried to death because they know I'm in this fulsome prison. So they're trying to work outside with a couple of other people trying to figure out what the fuck's going on. Right. Um To no avail, by the way. Right. And uh yeah, he's like, I I like your mom's h handwriting. I like your mom's handwriting. Like I wanna write your mom and I just fucking lost my shit. Absolutely lost my shit. He he demands you to tell your mom to start writing him as well. Mm-hmm. And now Um You feel it. You feel all men feel this. Things go quiet. You hear the boom boom in your ears. And You're not gonna take it anymore. No. to hell with it whatever happens after this. Like this is and and it and it had been building up, like you said, like just with the constant, like poking. And some of it would just, you know, in isolation, it wouldn't be that bad, but when you're living Think of the worst roommate you've ever had. But he's also a murderer. Right. That's what it is. A guy who like steals your food or, you know, like or I don't want to get too crass in there. Just when you're in a cell with somebody and they're going to the bat, it's just the worst. The worst. And uh So you the blood's in your ears and uh everything's going and it's gonna go down. So we're gonna take a quick break. Yeah. We'll find out how you handled it. Okay. Be right back. It's it's the standoff now. Okay. Not gonna take any more. He's going Mom's not gonna write him a letter, right? No, no, over my dead body. Mm-hmm. So and that's where where I was at. Had a little walkman. Yeah. 'Cause we're you were allowed like uh Believe it or not, even in Max prison, you can have a TV, you can have a Walkman. You know, um You were getting comics and stuff. Yeah, you can get comics and books. Uh and and cigarettes and stuff. They don't allow people to smoke in prison anymore. I don't know. That sounds terrible. I don't know why would they would do that. I don't know. Smoke. for the safety of the guards. Oh God. Uh so yeah, I I Go hysterically off on that. So it's not like some heroic moment, you know. Avengers Assemble. This this was fight or flight panic. Fight or flight panic spazzy fighting. Uh Think um Uh Ralph in a Christmas story, you know, like uh Toe to toe, could you take this guy? Um I mean I did. So Well how did you I mean I had well I I I had a a Walkman in my hand and I bashed his face in. So it's a very Gen X with the Sony product very Gen X. Well it was what was in my hand at the time. You bashed his face in. I bashed his face in. And bashed it in pretty good. And he go down? Yeah, he went down. Down and out. Down out. Um, blood. Everywhere. And I'm like, I'm going to the hole. I was just gonna ask the adrenaline comes down and you know you're going to the hole. I'm screwed. I'm going to the hull. Gonna get more time. Just what he wanted. Yep. And uh that didn't happen, which is insane, right? So uh I would I did a little time But as far as uh getting extra time out of my sentence, doesn't happen. Why not? Doesn't happen. We why not the whole? Where'd you go? It's a mist it's a m well. It's a mystery. Why? Uh, 'cause my biggest concern at the time was it's uh Am I are they gonna think I snitched? That was the that was my biggest concern. Um So Uh, my guess is a the guards knew what was going on or another and I never knew the answer to this at all. But it just kinda got a new cellmate. You know? Got a new cellmate. A little crazy still, but not as violent. Yeah. Uh, did you ever run into that guy? Again? No. Never did. It probably was. someone was like, We gotta get these tier twos out of here, man. No, and he was supposed to go to Pelican Bay anyway. Like he was like all the level fours were supposed to go to Pelican Bay. Right, they're still kind of do going through that transition. Yep. So you get placed with with a new cellmate and he's tier two, right? Yeah. Okay, so are you able to relax? Relax a little bit, and then um You know, I took a a printing class in there and it I never really went to the art or did anything after that, and then it was Finally over. uh when I went to uh the minimum security part of Well hang on a second. Okay he w this guy was a big part of You're recovering. Oh, I'm getting way ahead of myself. So before I go who was he? Uh he's violent. Wha what was he? What was he like? Uh he was actually a really like a nice guy. He was a nice guy. There are nice guys in there, believe me. Of course there are. I believe it. Yeah, I mean just made a bunch of mistakes in his life like I did. They only put the ones that get caught in there. And uh me needing to get out of the of the Oh, the cell. Like and I didn't really want to go to church. I tried it a couple times and it really didn't do it. Where's church come from? Why why were you even thinking about church? Oh, I I needed to get out of the cell for one, but I also needed to Come back here. Like Well and I was Didn't he tell you Yes here are here's some things you can do to make this go a little easier for yourself. Two options, right? Church. And meetings. Yep. So what happens? Uh, church doesn't work for me. Um, he's a religious. He was a religious religious guy. And I um started going to the meetings. Uh and it wasn't like this is A. Yeah, this is AA. Um they did do NA ones in there, but I just gravitated to the AA. And uh The reason and and it's the same re reason I gravitated to it outside is there's just more time in AA. You could still the principles are still the same. People are talking about alcohol, I could just I could just apply it to drugs and it's fine. So I it starts kicking in. I go to these meetings. And it kicks in for the first time, right? 'Cause you've been through crash, you've been through meetings, it didn't take you it didn't take Now it finally Starts to take it. You didn't go to those meetings. initially for any other reason than to just make it easier in inside, right? Or you said, I'm going to get clean now. Uh I'm gonna share. It was Just self preservation. Self preservation. I I wish it was something bigger than that, but it started That's when it started kicking in, like, oh. And you know, when you're in the meeting and you're hearing people tell the stories and like half the people in those meetings were there just to get out of their cell. But the guy leading the meeting, you know, from H and I hospitals and institutions from AA. They're there. 'Cause they're serious. Right. And especially to volunteer. Takes a special kind of person to volunteer for H and I. Wanna go inside a prison? Takes a very good person to do that. Better than I am. Yeah. When did it click? What was the what was the conversation? What was going around the circle when it suddenly Switched. It started clicking. It it was just through through time, but um just hearing over and over again that like life can get better. Like it's not necessarily over. You know, I don't know if I fully believed it at the time, but it started clicking. Really just over time. Uh and And it stayed with me. I'm not gonna say I was like ready to be a sober warrior at that point, but I had decided, like I told you, um, earlier on, like I do not want to come back here. This is horrifying. So the best way to describe prison is um Uh It is Really, it is boredom. uh occasionally interrupted by moments of terror. Just complete terror. But there's always an underlying like You sleeping with one eye open. You got to worry about absolutely everything. If somebody gives you a dirty look in there. It means something. And that's probably gonna, you know, because you are trapped with these people. And that will probably come to a head at some point. And that's always rolling around in the back of your head. But once again. Some people looking out for you always Have a routine so you don't go crazy. And then this new cellmate says you need a plan. You need a plan. What does he mean by that? Um you need a plan for life. Like you can't just get out and think everything's gonna be okay. And this is something like a father would tell a kid, right? You need to have a plan. Uh and what's what's your plan? And my plan was Really simple. Uh it w to get sober. To get a job. Uh and then implement uh I don't think I Verbally said this, but the the or Implement the routine. in in life. So that routine I was learning in prison, I actually applied it afterwards. Yeah, it was really fucking helpful. It was really helpful. Um What kind of routine was it? It was just the day to day that's the thing. So the day to day this carried on from from when I went uh on uh to to the minimum security. Right, you got moved finally. Yeah, moved finally. And in minimum security, I would uh I was doing a lot of working out. Uh I was either playing racketball because we had rack handball. Uh we had this big track you can walk or run laps on. And it uh it and I also had a job. I had this crazy job. that taught me how to work. And it like this is where the rehabilitation of prison actually worked on one person. Um so I had this this gig at uh procurement in the procurement office. What does that mean? Uh basically we did all the purchasing. Okay. Particularly in my area was just writing up all the drug orders. Which is funny. Right. You're dealing drugs again. So I'm I'm writing up all the drug orders because the new Folsom wing had a psychiatric wing. So I was uh doing all the drug orders for them. And I worked for a lady, uh I should say her real name. No no no uh it's fun. She was she always wore purple. She always wore frickin' purple. Um and uh I was her little boy toy, by the way. Like she she's like, oops, I drop something. You know, like stuff like that. Uh I I used to be young and pretty. But um yeah, it was it was Get up. Get up 530 in the morning, get my breakfast. Uh either walk a lap before I go to work. Or walk two laps before I go to work, go to work, come back, go play some racket ball or handball with the guys. And it was just do that every day. Were you behaving at your job and all that? You were. Yeah. Getting along with everybody. Getting along with everybody. Are you counting down the days now? Count down the days. They're still long. I mean, you know. They're still like a year out. This is why you're so good at counting George Martin's days to the you're counting days. That's what you do. I do. That's what I do. I keep track, George. Uh so yeah. What are the last few days like? I isn't it This is the new Weight Watchers. Built for real life and real results. No matter what mode you're in. Maddie went all in for her big day and lost 33 pounds. Emily lost 85 pounds and hit her goal while still living her life. Weight Watchers gave me the tools and I feel amazing. Join the millions of members and lose weight with the number one Doctor Recommended Weight Loss Program. Lose more at WeightWatchers.com. Six months, participants in the clinical trial of Weight Watchers program lost an average of 12 pounds. You know, sixty. 59, 50. I mean, it's torture. It's torture, dude. absolute torture and the anxiety of Am I gonna fuck up again? Right. Is it am I really getting out? Yeah. Is something is there gonna happen. What's gonna happen. You know, that that and that really starts messing with you towards the end. I bet it does. Like what if some charge is found, you know, because I listen, I didn't get caught for everything I did. Of course not. Yeah. Eight, seven, six, you still Parents are still supporting you? Parents are still supporting me. I'm on my routine. I'm starting to like lose it a little bit towards the end, though. I'm starting to go away. And just anxiety. Just pure anxiety. How did you cope? Um Not well. I uh I I didn't sleep very much. Uh, but I tried to work out more. So and by work out I mean just exercise, do some sort of like uh, you know. But it was obsessive. I mean, it got really obsessive. But it was like, you know, running laps or playing racketball or playing it by myself. So this is a very different facility than you're coming from. It had to feel like vacation. It it it did. Like we Um Yeah. We there was like a little garden where we grew chili peppers. Um, we were s we'd sit out and tan. It's it's it's Sac it's near Sacramento. It's right near Folsom Lake. You were supposed to be there the whole time. Yes, I was not supposed to be behind the wall at all, ever. And uh or maybe for a couple of weeks. Did you run into other tier twos at at small? Yeah. What the hell? That was terrible. That sucked. Um But for the for the level twos I I had a usually had more time than they did. So they were all getting out before me, which kinda sucked. But watching them, hey, have fun, buddy. But yeah, like we weren't a dick about it. You already saw what how that works. No, no, not at all. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But then we uh Yeah, we we I mean We'd we'd have uh this thing called spreads where you're we'd make a bunch of food. We'd steal some food out of the kitchen or the the cook would just give us some food and we'd make these big things of ramen and chop every piece of meat we could figure out. And it was just this gobbledygook of of stew with top ramen that we and that was our like party night we watch football and yeah it was kinda smoke cigarettes and you know when you heard like Bola Brown at King's Landing you're like oh I have Bola Brown. Yeah Singer stew. Yeah. So the day finally comes. Day finally comes. And my parents picked me up. And they the I so I go out the main gate of Folsom. There was a beat I liked in your book about the guard who who came to get you. 'Cause he was the same guard he The badass guard who let you in. Yeah. He was still there. Yeah. Little smile in his eyes. Yeah. You did it, kid. Yeah, you made it. You made it. You made it. And um It was uh I wish I could bottle like the feeling I had that day because I wanted for nothing, no material thing. had any of value to me. It was it was pure freedom. So that was the first day I I understood what like liberty and freedom are is. It's something I completely took for granted or never thought about as a kid. How soon did how soon did it kick in? Uh like the minute I walked out. And just open sky and no wall. Sky, no walls. My mom and dad smiling to see me. And uh you know you just You don't have to sign very much paperwork. You just sign a couple things and Get your stuff back. Got my got my clothes back. that I went in on and I'm like, wow, I actually lost weight in here. You know, so Uh yeah you weren't doing well for a while in there. No. No, I was not doing well, and I got out pretty much in shape. But yeah, so back to that feeling of gratitude, just pure gratitude of like, I am free. My life isn't over. 'Cause I I was convinced for the longest time, even before I went into prison, we talked about it earlier, that my life was just over. Sure. Just it's done. Like we're gonna play it out. It's gonna be a sad, pathetic ending. Um, and I'm like, wow, I have a chance to do this. And I don't want for a bunch. I don't have any lofty goals. Um Just one. Don't go back in there. Don't go back in. And don't go back in. Yeah. So I had the best meal of my life, which was uh, you know, an omelette at Denny's. Denny's I mean Your home. It was it's America. Greatest food greatest meal I've ever had. And yeah, and and what's the conversation like at at that d breakfast? Are we are we laughing? We're crying. We're laughing. Uh we're talking about Just what's ahead. You know, my dad was not like a real sentimental guy. So we were just like, Yeah, we talk about the chargers. Padres. And how crappy they were. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh And it's funny 'cause it's right before they they went for their first Superbowl. Oh, that's right early. Yeah, but there was like Bobby Ross had come around and they've been to the playoffs for the first time in a long time. So we had stuff to talk about. But it was really light, right? Um and you know they they were pretty uh a matter of factly like you got to find a job you can't like stay with us forever. I'm like, okay. No talking back, no attitude. Nope. Just uh I was being a a good kid, right? And uh with a with a new lease on life and a new attitude towards life. And uh waking up every morning was freaking great. I like I could just and I'd do things like just take a walk. Ride my bike to the beach. you know, uh, in between looking for a job, but yeah, I didn't I didn't need any money. Didn't need any of that stuff. I had a place to stay, but eventually I would I would need that money. Were you crave in drugs? No. Booze anything? No, went to started going to meetings immediately. You did? Yeah, immediately. Uh there was no none of that. And Any addict in trouble, especially after they get out of a a rehab or anything, it's it's what I got in trouble is like I immediately s sought out my old friends. Which means Let's party. I did not. I I didn't let anybody know I was back. Didn't know if anybody knew I was back or gone or anything. And just kind of did my own thing. Hung out with my parents. And uh eventually contacted couple friends but I knew who were outside of the like an old childhood friend. And he eventually gave me a job. Well, before that, you said don't run into old friends, but you did. I did. What happened? Um, it was sad. Uh, but uh I I Um I'm also talking about that meeting with people from the neighborhood there. Yeah. Yeah. When w uh that was kind of surprising to when we ran into each other. Who what happened? Who was there? Um Try not to use uh I had a couple of older friends. Ball sacked one. Yeah, cool. Um seeing Ballsack there. So these are all guys you these part you partied with, drugs. It was a shock. But I'm sure they were just as shocked. See me. Were you f well uh frightened a little bit? Like, oh no, relapse, here we go. Um At that meeting. Yeah, that's always it. I mean, the fear is always in there. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But um it was also Now that I look back on it, a little inspiring to see some of the old old people come through and and make it. And we you know, there's there's some I ended up staying friends with forever, you know, and uh to this day. Uh some who didn't make it. But uh yeah, that like seeing that, that was like I guess the first test. I guess. You know? Um and one of those he one of those guys became your first sponsor? Yeah. Did you know about sponsorship at that time? I did. I just never like really took it seriously. Eventually learn how important it is. And then you learn how absolutely necessary. It is. So he was clean a while. Tell me about that conversation. Um, it was uh I mean, it we he he he's knew what I've been through, right? And then like more than anybody else. I I honestly don't know if it was the best the best choice for sponsor, to be honest with you. Maybe not. Maybe not, but um It's I just didn't want to go back. It was it was really simple. You know? Um I was I I didn't want to die. didn't want to die. So he asked you. to make a commitment. And you agreed to it. Yes. Did you just keep your word? Uh, to my commitments of To him. Uh I I mean, I know how it works. You're there for each other. Yes. You pick up the phone. You show up. You do the work. come back tomorrow, you call. Did you do all that stuff? Uh I did all that stuff in the beginning and uh I did it when I relapsed too. Uh the thing it it and Like I don't want to get ahead with the relapse, but uh there is a there's a commitment you need to make, uh that uh I'm just trying to to stress what a big decision it is once you take on become a sponsee. It's it's a pr big deal. It is. Um usually it's ninety meetings in ninety days. Um and you have to Write gratitude lists. Both sponsors maybe do it. One was way more hardcore than the other. So um you have to do a p ton of homework. You have to meet. You have to uh basically do your own Book study with the so we sit down and we go over chapters of the book. And this is on top of going to meetings that are that are book because there are book specific meetings. Yep. Where you just go through the chapters. Yep. Um And then you're now like working the steps and doing working the steps. And it's not just once. So I my my I thought it was just once you did the steps. Now you just recycle and keep going through and through until it really gets ingrained. Well step four's never over, is it? Never over. That's uh Inventory. Yes. The personal inventory and uh we're always making New mistakes. Right. And uh it's it's work that's never done. It's a very important step. That self awareness. Yeah. Yeah. You work in the program, things are going good, you get a job. Mm-hmm. At the warehouse. At the warehouse. How's that how's that first day feel? Um it's crazy. Uh it warehouses um what music? Videos. So that's a West Coast. I'm from New York. I had never heard of it. Okay. Yeah. The warehouse is yeah, it's um it's a record store. Mm-hmm. Uh that's also a video store. This is perfect for you. 'Cause you're a pop culture junkie going in, right? Yes. So So are you like this is this is perfect. It's heaven. Yeah. It's absolute heaven. And I've always wanted Well, I've worked at the warehouse before in the past. Oh you did? I did, but for like I never worked very anywhere along because I was a drug addict. So this was like well now that I know how to have this thing called a work ethic from prison. I I I learned that from prison. I going to go getting up at five in the morning every day, going to work. Uh, it was it was amazing working there. Uh pay wasn't great, but who cares? It was enough. Your parents had to be so proud. Yeah. That you were going in every day. I I think they were probably always waiting for Always waiting. Always waiting. And uh it it it didn't happen. Like I I went to work, uh took extra shifts, had tons of fun, met a bunch of friends there, uh had had some rough times, you know? Like there there's still the adapting I had to get used to. Yeah, there is that story. Yeah. So um the altercation. Yeah, I just some old guy, uh, and I got into it and Well t tease it out. He walks in, he's waving the thing around. He's waving a video around and uh I he's giving me a bunch of attitude. Like what? Uh It was over uh A return? And it was late or something. It was some violation of whatever. Um, and and once he started getting disrespectful to me and he was angry at me, I I have the the the prison defense mechanism comes in. So I feel like I'm being disrespected. So this is like, you know, still early on. This took me years to get rid of this stuff. Cause I was I was uh I wasn't it wasn't like I was floating cloud nine the whole time I was out. I was there was There's certain things that would You know, I guess triggers or lack of a better word. Uh trigger the defense mechanisms from prison. Uh, I definitely had uh I I had trouble sleeping for if you want to call it PTSD. Sure. I mean for a decade I had trouble sleeping. No, it is PTSD. It's not It is PTSD. That's a thing. That X Cons have. You come out of war, you come out of prison, you have PTSD. And you did. And so you felt you're disrespected. What happened with the guy? Uh I I shattered him down and uh I had to get uh I almost I I got written up but and my friend had to you know the friend who gave me the job You didn't put hands on, right? No, no, no hands on. We were just yelling. We were yelling at each other. Pretty good. Like the customer service. It's horrible customer service. 'Cause like it's retail Customers come in and yell. You just go, Yes, sir, I will d uh it was really easy. All I had to do cares, just give him the tape. Just give him what he wanted and walk away. But I took it as a personal so I get uh written up and You know? But I love the conversation you have with Don in the back room. Yeah. Because he asked you what happened. But it wasn't a casual thing. 'Cause he's like No, seriously, what's going on. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't like what happened with the uh With the situation as like what's going it was like an actual caring 'cause he's in the program. Mm-hmm. And uh what'd you say? Oh I just I just told him exactly that I felt disrespected and it just everything just clicked. You know, um My defense mechanism, I just lost my shit, you know, and it's just And uh I i it was it was understood, but it was also said that like you the this cannot go on. Got uh Did you get fired? Uh no. I got written up. Okay. I got written up. Which was I should have brought I should have been fired. Uh, maybe. I don't know. Ah, he was gonna fire me. He wasn't gonna but like it I felt terrible. And the thing is, like later on, like me and that old guy. Got along famously afterwards. Of course. Of course. So I like I just treated him nice. Prison rules are actual rules of life. So and then he we actually got to the point where like he come over and we chit chat for twenty, thirty minutes while he's at so it's like that's the cool part of the story. is uh we became like buds after that. Mutual respect. Yeah. And like it was way down the line. So I'm like, you know what, I'm really sorry I yelled that you that day. I was having a bad day. So I don't Course. He was a sweet, sweet old guy. So Yeah. Um it was but that's that's where I also recognized like might not be that easy. Like it like, you know, you once you get past your cloud nine and your your your euphoria, you know, there's there's the work that has to be done. And uh I was I was super angry, like and resentful. Um Are you feeling the calling to go back to drinking or drugs? Um, not not at that time, but it it That eventually does come. Uh But I think that's just being fresh, being out of prison, right? And you just you know, you got your guard up all the time. You don't need to have your guard up. Plus, you know, prison rules aren't real life rules. So if somebody Disrespects f you, you don't like punch them in the face. Right. You know, it's simple stuff like that. So what happened next to the after warehouse? After warehouse. Um, well okay, so I meet uh first wife. Meet the first wife. Meet the first wife. Yeah. Uh yeah. And she's so when you um When you meet somebody in recovery, right? She was in the program. She was in the program. Uh it's It's cool. Mm-hmm. Uh but you understand each other. Yeah, understand each other on that level, but you also have to have like more in common beyond that. And uh we we never really did. So when did the fight start and why? Uh I mean it was it it it It was just later on and it was it wasn't like a ton of 'em, you know? It was just I always She I don't want it. She's a nice person. I know. She is. Yeah. She's a nice person. There's always two sides to a story. Yeah, and she had to put up with me. Right. And uh Long story short, I've I was like I was I was still kind of a magpie. Um I was still collecting stuff that she didn't like. Like what comics? Oh, comics. Yeah, she just didn't like the comics and toy collecting, like at all. And uh yeah, yeah, and and it just wasn't gonna work out. You guys are not getting along and um Dad gets sick. Dad gets sick. Dad um gets cancer. And uh We kinda we kinda like everything is kinda kinda put to the side. We're dealing with dad's cancer. How are you guys dealing with it? Um How's mom taking it? Moms being a caregiver and trying to be the strong caregiver. And at the time we w I you know, we thought there's a possibility he could fight it off, right? Mm-hmm. Um And but mom's My mom had just been a caregiver for her mom, who died. And then she had to be immediately a caregiver for my dad. Uh long story short, on this one, he Um Got colon cancer. It uh it went away. Uh full remission and then it comes back immediately and it's He's got uh weeks to live. Weeks to live. Um, gets into his stomach and all this. And uh We have a a last our last like conversation where he's like not just on morphine. Yep. Um, our last real conversation. And he sits me down. He's in the hospital. And uh uh the last thing he wants to talk to me about is my relationship with my wife and 'cause he sensed it a long time. Yeah. That it's that you're not happy, it's not working. So what did he tell you? Life is too short to be uh be with somebody you're not happy with. Right. And you know, you deserve happiness. And and we were like really tight and we rarely talked about like relationships. So it was such a it was like But he was right. He was right. And again, no fault of hers, right? I I was a massive pain in the ass, too. Of course. Yeah. And uh so Dad passes away. And that is just a huge change in my life. That's like an anchor gone. Uh and When it comes to weight loss, you don't need more advice. You need more of what works. That's Weight Watchers, with real tools designed to take the guesswork out of what to eat, how to move, and how to build habits that actually last. That's why Weight Watchers members lose more weight. Real people, real results. Weight Watchers Core Plus. Get started at WeightWatchers.com. In a six-month clinical trial of over 370 people, those using Weight Watcher saw significantly better results than those following standard nutritional advice alone. See the 2025 study published in the AJCN. point I see that like as a as like you know what it's just I need a I need a change. I don't even know if it's the best decision in the world or not. And um Uh I've reconnected with some friends, including Melissa. Because you knew Melissa from back in the day. Yeah, I know I've no Melissa, I've my uh uh my wife Melissa I've known for Forty-one years. So we so she was at that Crystal Palace. She was partying there. So she's seen it all. She's seen it all. So we're friends. Uh reconnected through Classmates.com. Oh yeah, yeah. So um we we I get a I get a divorce, yeah um and move to San Francisco, move away from never thought I'd leave San Diego. I love San Diego. Uh move up to San Francisco. What attracted you to San Francisco? Um it was just for back then it was cool. And I needed a I needed a change. I just needed a change of scenery. Didn't want to leave the state of California and I didn't want to live in LA. So San Francisco was the next best choice. Well I mean you were weird in San Diego in San Francisco, your home. Everybody's weird. Yeah, everybody's uh that's that's part of it, you know. It certainly changed for San Diego now, but San Diego back then it was pretty pretty much a normal town. Um and San Francisco back then was a different city than it is now. Uh, but yeah, I was I was up there and Yeah, I just I was uh selling auto parts. So I went from From working at the warehouse to selling auto parts and uh I thought The reason I bring that up is I like, well, this is my life now and I'm totally happy with it. Like I like this job. Uh I never so when you when you have realistic expectations of well, I was gonna go nowhere in life and die, but now I've got this Job 'cause I had no skills. When I walk out of prison my one of my biggest fears is I have no skills. Yes, you did. Yes, you did. Well, I mean you were organized, you you learned a lot in prison. So Auto parts, but you're still collecting comics and doing your still doing all that stuff. Right is cool with it. Yeah, yeah, like totally cool with it. Oh yeah. She has to be. No. No, she's as much of a collector as I am. So there you go. So yeah, I got the normal job and I'm super happy with it. And I'm like, if this is the job I work on at the rest of my life, I'm totally cool. Like it makes enough money. I like it enough. Um But I always kept on like finding something more, right? That's when the comic shop comes up. We're in San I'm in San Francisco, and this is before Melissa and I are married. Um we uh Were you living together? Uh yeah, we were living together. And like within a year I I bought the comic story. It would just it just landed in my lap. But how how did you make that decision? It was really quick and probably not smart. I mean just suddenly it's available. You're money? Well I'm working at Oakland Acura. Okay. And I hate working in Oakland. Like I I hate Oakland. Like hate Oakland like a lot. So and hate going over that Bay Bridge every day. So I'm looking for something. And I'm out lunch and I open the paper and there is an ad for some comics for sale. I answer the ad cause I'm like, Well, I'm gonna buy this big chunk of comics. It it was Affordable. And I'm gonna save it for when I open a store someday in retirement. So that was my plan. You when you retire when you open a store. When I retire. Okay. So when I'm making this uh deal with the guy, the guy's all well. I mean, there's a comic shop for sale right now. You wanna buy it. And it's just so happened to be the shop I shopped at, the comic outpost. So it was my comic store. I'm like, I'll just talk to the guy. I never thought any of this would go down. We talk, we agree on a price, we go to a pizza place. Make a handshake deal. You guys had the money? Uh I had the money. Okay. Add the money. Um I Post uh yeah, post divorce. Um Made a lot of money off the condo. We we bought a condo for like next to nothing and the housing market went crazy. Yeah. So the money was there. Money was there. Okay. So I bought the store and uh And uh it was just like that. It was it was within two weeks, I had to quick read, half read um small business for dummies. And then uh I was owing a comic store, which would was kind of was like a lifelong dream. Did you f did you feel like this is a dream come true? Yes. At first. Yeah. And uh and it always was. It was always a really fun job. But then, you know, I always said to myself, if this thing becomes a job, like if it starts feeling like work, I'm out. Uh, and it didn't for a long time. Well you got into the to comic books as an entrepreneur at a very good time in in our culture. Very good time. Very lucky. Because this is MCU is getting hot, right? Spider Man's rebooted and it's good. Yeah, so so right. Reboots Batman and it's Great. It's all yeah, it's kinda weird how the timing worked out. So I took it over in 2003. Kinda weird. You're the luckiest dude I know. Yeah, I I um X Minute come out in ninety nine, Spider Man, Spider Man two uh came out the year before I opened my store. Right. Uh and it's yeah, we're just a couple of years before Nolan starting Batman and uh the MCU starting. And you know, in the meantime, there's like Sin City came out and you know Hellboy star and and it's just creeping up. It's doing better and better. It when I when I got there, it was still like recovering from post 911, post uh 90s stuff. Yeah. Not a lot of it. It was very small. Batman Hush was the best selling comic. Oof. So it was out right when I started my store. Uh, and then it just started revving up. The competition between Marvel and DC got a a lot more serious. Uh That's good for you. Oh, it was great. In the in the beginning it was it was absolutely great. And it was kind of a renaissance time for comic books, for independent books too. Uh, and it was kind of the last hurrah of American comics now that I look back on it, which is kind of sad. It was. Uh, but uh the storytelling was getting much better. The art was getting better, the comic book sales were going up. It was Normi's. So like we got it it was a Hollywood was bringing in a lot of normies. But what helped was the comic books were story driven. So we still had great writers like Mark Miller who were who were out there working with, you know, either Wildstorm in the early days, but then they like Marvel plucked him. And you know, Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis. And uh Grant Morrison, you know, all these old Judge Dred people uh coming in and writing America comics and kind of turning it on their turning it upside down. Uh You won Best of the Bay. I did, two thousand nine. Why? Why why how did you differentiate yourself? I oh, so my st the San Francisco is very San Francisco. Right. So uh most of the comic shops are gonna be um independent book oriented. You know, because it's such a hippie independent town. I'm like, I am gonna be the normie superhero family store. Because that's the one thing that isn't here. Weren't you drawing your own comics back in the day? Oh God, yeah. I don't know. Yes, I was. Art school. Uh I I I I drew um We did what kind of became the precursor to the book. Uh we did a a comic called Horror Show and I did another com superhero comic book. People don't know that you write and draw. Uh no, they don't. And I and and I'm gonna keep it that way. Well, not anymore, but uh yes. Not anymore. Yeah. I I did a superhero com comic book that I might revisit like after YouTube. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I was I was drawing and writing just for fun. Like no expectations and I don't consider myself anything and this stores growing and stores growing. Get a certificate for video production? Yeah. So um When uh we win best of the bay in two thousand nine, but this is like two thousand eight, two thousand nine. Yeah. Economy's going to crap. So the store is breaking even. Oh right. Yeah, it's just breaking even. So I need I'm like, I'm gonna I want to do something fun. uh possibly to to make some more money. I don't wanna but we need to like figure this out. So I take a video intensive course. Uh, it's called the new media intensive course or digital video intensive at San Francisco State University. Uh it was four months. Uh Ten to twelve hours a day, six days a week. Wow. And it's like basically film school with no theory put into four months. That sounds awesome. Like all it was great. Great. First day we had cameras in our hands. Second day we're editing. Uh, we learn how to light a scene. Um we we learn how to write a script, you know, we used we used a Matlock script and I'll never forget. Yeah. Uh and yeah, and it was people who all worked in the industry. And it's all practical. It was all practical. So by the end All of us had shot like four little short films. And how did this apply to the comic book store? Um, we were able to I was able to like Shoot podcasts, do podcasts, do do ads. Uh, but it was always gonna be Like I wanna do a podcast and I wanna do some kind of live show. And I was thinking we live streamed Oh God, what was What did Joe Rogan used to use to live stream on? Ustream. Ustream. We used Ustream. The tiniest window. The tiniest window. So we live streamed in our store way back when, uh, during free comic book day and twenty four hour comic book day where people were. You you make a comic in twenty four hours. So the store starts doing good again and you kinda become oh shit. You come become a the become the mayor. Mayor of the nerds, huh? Yeah. And um Ego Gary comes back. Yeah, big time. All goes to my head. Why? What happened? Um Stopped going to meetings. Why? Uh You were cured? I was cured. No. I was I mean I mean what do you what's your rational and what is My rational say I was too busy. Too busy. You know how that goes. Yeah. And what's the wife thinking? Doesn't She's busy too? So she doesn't know you're missing meetings or Doesn't doesn't necessarily know. She's she's like we both we had the two kids, right? So um And you're learning to get pretty good at lying at this point, I would say. Yeah, very good. Yeah. Very good. So uh saying I'm going to meetings when I'm not. Mm-hmm. You know? So that was just a recipe for destruction. So it's going to your head and um what's going down? Well uh no sponsor, no meetings going to my head. Uh things are going really well at the store, so that can mask A lot of stuff. Uh putting up a banner one day. Uh yeah, Superman Returns banner. Still oh no, I'll never get rid of it now. What happened? Uh uh a ladder, a folding ladder, um, flattens my thumb. Stupid injury. Well my thumb was like this thin. Flattens my thumb. They have to uh drill a hole in the nail and the and the blood comes up like Monty Python. Uh but the um the at the emergency room because I had to drive myself there because my employee didn't know how to drive. San Francisco. Uh yeah, San Francisco. Uh they they gave me some Vicadin. Oh, daddy likey Vikey. Yep. And it was pretty much off to the races to that point. Yeah. Suddenly in a great mood and don't feel any pain. Yep. So you just get a script. Get a script. And you're just taken as prescribed. Yeah. It's normal at first. Then The thing is when you when you have a comic store, a lot of people offer you stuff, you know? And like what? Oh advice. Advice. That's it. Um it just through time through I I mean it basically the the addict mind kicked in again. Like absolutely kicked in again. They're coming in with Coke is what they're doing. They're coming in with Coke. So it jumps really quick. So it goes from Like um getting prescripts and at that time it was the the Bikin opiate epidemic. You could just say I sprained my ankle and just my back hurt. Uh and yeah, and then uh You know, we I I've always been offered weed. you know, in the store for trade or whatever. And a guy just like one day just yeah, comes in, talk Offer some Coke? I'm like, sure. So you go from saying no, though. Going from no to let's go in the back and get dusty. Yeah. What's the what shifted? Um I th the uh the relapse just kicked the the disease just kicked in at that point. Um the shifting point was probably, I mean, obviously the not going to meetings, not having a sponsor and realizing that I had already relapsed, 'cause for a minute I had it in my head that I hadn't relapsed. When I was d when I was taking the pills. What were you Oh, 'cause it was just doctor gate. It was doc the doctor gate. I was just doing but I mean I had stopped doing the prescribed amount, so I just said fuck it. And you weren't talking to your sponsor at all? Nope. Did you feel ashamed or did you fail? Totally. Totally. And then that's what that's what fed the uh addiction was uh the shame behind it. And the the difference this time was I was doing all of this in solitude, right? She didn't know it was going on. She didn't know it was going on. You sure she didn't know? Well, I thought she didn't know. 'Cause I think they always know. They always know. We can um Fast forward to the Melissa method. Oh, the Melissa method, yeah. Because you're you're rela you're on and off There's the story of you going down to Comic Con. Oh yeah. If you want to tell that cool. So comic kind of But you're basically out of control. Complet So it goes it goes well because the Coke habit is pricey. It's it's very pricey. And uh it's a progressive disease. So when you when I quit, I'll use my I statements here. When I quit It's like you kept I've kept doing drugs to the point where I pick them up again. So if that doesn't make any sense to anybody at home. It makes sense to addicts. If I was doing rails this big back in night or eighty nine when I quit, it will mean I'm doing rails this big. When I pick up within weeks. Yep. Within days. Yep. Same with booze, same everything. Yep. And the thing is, your tolerance It's not the same as it was then. So it's very dangerous. But yeah, in a very short amount of time, I was doing big old rails. Like huge rails. How are things going at at the at work? Uh insane. I was going slowly going insane. My employees are like, what the hell's going on? My wife's like, what the hell's going on? You have Your son and his stepson at this point? Yep. Your good dad? Um, I mean, I was never bad to them, but I wasn't a good dad when I was high, no. Terrible dad. Getting high, yeah. You thinking about them at all when you when you're doing your alms? All the time. All the time. And uh it just made me want to get more high and not think about it about how much I was failing them. Constantly. And Maybe I had it in the back of my head that oh I can I can get around this, but then there was a point that kicked in as like, no, that this is probably it. I did it once, I can do it again, and then you probably can't. No, but um just through the grace of God, nothing bad happened to him. Now I didn't take any unnecessary risks with them or do any drugs in front of 'em. Or uh drive them anywhere completely incapacitated or anything crazy like that. I still had enough, I guess, humanity left in me to not do that. That's why Coke is very tricky. Yep. Because it's not like you're all cloudy and snurry. If you're like, I can control this. I got this. Till you're up for like four or five days. And it gets a little crazy. That was when you you I couldn't believe that you didn't crash on the way back from San Diego. So just quickly, what happened? Okay, go to San Diego. I'm like just completely out of it uh on Coke. And there's video of it somewhere. There is? There is. Oh my goodness. I'll find it. Uh it's it's bad. Do we have the coaked up podcast? Coked up Yeah, we were doing it. Um I wasn't involved uh I had hired somebody to do some interviews, but we had like my plan, my coaked up plan was actually sounded like a good plan at the time, but it was very hard to get internet there. Use the booth to sell stuff and also as a as a like an interview, like podcasting interview on the floor. Great idea. Con this was back in two thousand thirteen. So it wasn't easy to do that. But we did it and we got, you know Dave Gibson and like we got some big names uh to come in and uh And yeah, but I was like losing my fucking mind. So I get home. Uh Melissa finds out what the hell's going on. And uh I mean she finds the biggest rocket cooking. She does. And uh and how do you ha what is she how does she confront you on the Oh my goodness. Um she while I'm gone, she's planning An intervention. Oh no. So she just plays it cool and then All of a sudden there's a bunch of people coming to my house. I'm like empty chair. Uhhuh. I'm like, Oh shit. You know exactly what it is. I know what's going on. Now this is where people make a choice. Yep. To sit or or to be an asshole. Yep. And I decided to not be an asshole. I uh I mean I still love my wife, of course, and I still love my kids. It's not like that ever changed. Uh I just sick. I didn't like myself very much, and I made a lot of mistakes. That's a that's a very important decision that you made. That's That's kind of like the real Gary coming through is I'm gonna sit. 'Cause you didn't have to. 'Cause you you were verbally abusive to Melissa. Yeah. I mean some of the stuff you said to her is out of hand. Yeah, absolutely. Um She very easily could have left you and She should have. And probably should've Should've. I I I I can't even imagine speaking to anybody that way. No. Not someone who who loves you. No, I'm just saying call your sponsor, go to meetings. And you're telling her to go fuck herself. Yep. So this time I didn't. And We we sat down, a good friend of mine is there, you know, who was a customer at the store, but he was also um instrumental in bringing me back to recovery. Uh, he's kind of a uh a recovery guru. Um And we sit down, we have the specialist there for the rehab, and he's like, We got to go right now. During Memorial Day at Lowe's, shop household must-haves for less. Save $80 on the Charbroil Performance Series 4-Burner Grill to chef up something special. Plus, get up to 45% off select major appliances to keep things fresh. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Lowe's, we help, you save. Valet to 527. While supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for details. Visit your nearby Lowe's on U.S. Highway 431 South in Gunnisville. Ha. And at at that point I could have said no. Um But I was done. I was like, you know what? Let's go. So we go to rehab. And you know, I get cleaned up for thirty days. And it's really nice. One of the best things about it was they took away your my phone too. And this is like 2013, so it's not as bad as it was today. And it was so nice to not be around a For thirty days. Try it now, Gary. It's still nice. Uh yeah. Try it now. Uh I w I I well. I don't know if I can for thirty days, but for a week, I'd be nice. Everyone should put it away for a bit. For a bit. Yeah. Sure. So how did it go in in rehab? Uh the rehap was was good because it got me reconnected with AA, but I wasn't ready yet. Right. So get out of rehab nice and healthy. I get out of rehab. And just Immediately go. Right back in. Right back at it. Did you have the store still? store is still around. Uh we have I have a I have a partial business partner. Okay and then I have uh the employees and they're holding it together and the store was like kind of doing its own thing. Didn't really need me there at that point. Might have been even better without you. It probably would have been. Um give him a break. So I get back. Go right back to the store. Store's doing pretty good. But then things go downhill for me like fast. So like we're in uh We're in wehab in August. So we're in September of 2013. And the store went from doing okay to like absolutely done by the end of the year. That fast? That fast. It was like it just fell off a cliff. And it was my my like the store could have survived, but I was I went back out again. You were back on doing the coke. Yeah, and just like burning through money. Sure. Absolutely burning through money. So I have to make the decision to close it, but before I close it, somebody else comes in and says, like I'll give you a song to buy it. And I'm like, ah fine, you know, you the customers still have it. And I'm just like, ah, fine, whatever. You know, I I need I need to And all this time you're selling collectibles to feed your pabit. Stuff that's one of a kind. I laugh so I don't cry. Um John Byrne? Had uh I can send you the copy. It's still out there. It you could find it on the internet. But John Byrne had uh done a a commission for me of Batman, Spider Man on a double date with Catwoman and Black Cat and Alfred's like barbecuing on the top. So good. It's so good. It's like he drew it for a comic book. Like the guy took so much time with his commission. One of a kind. Never see it again. For two days worth of Coke. Maybe. Two days worth of Coke and uh I had Frank Miller original art from Amazing Spider Man One Hundred, a spread page where Spider Man's the fantastic four. What's going through your mind when you're letting it go? Are you thinking about This is gonna hurt. It is gonna hurt, but um I you know, that's it I need to get high. Yeah. Yeah. And it hurts. Like a cut there's a couple of things, like some stuff I've sold it's like whatever. But like couple. It's like, oh, those were those. Do you know how much that Frank Miller spread would be worth right now? It's like, oh And considering how much I sold it for, it's like But So you have to you have to s you have to sell the store or you want to? Um We have to 'cause uh I am Bank I'm going bankrupt at this point. She's carrying you guys. And uh Melissa's not gonna carry me. Like this the shop has to carry itself or it's done. And it could have, but I burned through all the money. So It it just got tiresome. Um, I had to have a check ready when the shipment came. And it just like it it just wasn't sustainable at that point. And it was a choice of do I continue to to keep the store or do I try to fight to get my sobriety and my family. back and it was it was a easy decision. So it was shut it down, then it gets sold. So it stayed around for a little while. And uh I Uh Melissa kicked me out of the house. What do you mean? Uh so she um right around uh right around Christmas, she found some more pills and she's like, You're out. Yeah. So And initially it was a I went to sober living. So um at first nowhere. And then it we we set up sober living. Sober living's urine test though. Urine test. Oh yeah. How that go. Uh I did so much. See, the thing is though, I didn't do Coke. I can tell I can tell you the truth right now. I didn't do Coke, but I had done so much Coke that it was still in my system like days after. So I failed a test and I'm like for real didn't do any coke, dude. But they're like you they all say that. Yeah. They all say that. So they they they're like the deal is you got to just go You get kicked out for a day and then you go to a like a different house. You still gotta pay for that day. Still gotta pay for that day. Mm-hmm. So um that's what happened. And I'm like, all right. Because you can't go home. I can't go home. So I slept in the car. Slept in the car, hope. Slept in the effing car. Hoping for tomorrow. Hoping for tomorrow. So this is 2013. I am uh 43. Just lost everything. And I am sleeping in my effing car. So uh I get into the the next um the sobriety house. It's off uh it's off of Sloat in San Francisco, if you're familiar with that area. And All right, I'm gonna give it another go. I gotta find a job. First I just wanted to get Like I had enough enough money set aside and didn't need a lot. It's just like let's just get the sober thing going right now. Let's go to meetings. Meetings? Meetings. Yeah. And uh there's meetings in the house and the people in the house, it was a nice house. People were pretty cool. You were still in touch with Melissa at this time? Um a little bit. Yeah. A little bit is enough. Yeah, a little bit, which is like I'm alive. Uh I went to a meeting just checking in. But she's not being like Do you know at the time that you're risking more than you were at Falsom. Like it's a more dangerous situation now. Yes. You knew that. Yeah. Like this was way more dangerous than when I was younger. You got boys at home. No dad. I got Kids I've Abandon basically. I have let down and that like that sticks. The most, right? Is uh What really motivated me to to turn my shit, because I didn't know if she was gonna get I I figured she wouldn't. And uh I'm like, Oh my God. hesitation with my kids. And I know other people have to go through it. There's people out there going through it right now and it's not to look down on them. This is a completely different situation, but with What motivated me was like. I don't want to I don't want to be that dad. I don't want to be that dad. There's so many dad there that have done that. It's like I don't want to be that dad. You sit in circles with that dad every time you're at a meeting. Yep. There's one of those guys is there. Yeah. Can't be that guy. I can't. And and you know, it it sucks. to be in that position as that guy and it like if I had to be in it, that's fine. But that my main motivation was I am not going to be that guy. I'm not gonna let my kids down. period. So whatever I'm feeling, I have to, I have to deal with it. So I did. I I that was it. That was the thing that clicked for me. And Passed my next piss test, no problem. Nice. And well they were hot listen, yeah. It was quite there they were all like this this is the guy who failed. So I think they were ready to like boot me out and I passed, they're like, Okay. We can move a f you could you could feel kind of like a tension leave. And we can move on and and that guy who technically threw you out that first night, which he should have. I don't know what the quote was, but it was a great moment in your story. Where you were kind of tr negotiating, almost fighting with the guy to stay. Yeah. And I whatever the quote was, he said, What you're doing right now is you're angry at external forces trying someone else to make a decision for you. We're not doing that here. Yeah, yeah. You gotta you gotta you gotta do this on your own, but this is on this on you. This is on you. Come back to Mark Mike, these are rules You know. That's it. He was right. He was right. It's a great percent. It sucks to hear at the time though, you're It does, but it's a but I make had me thinking about my own life. Everyone should think about that. When you're angry at external things. You're looking for someone else to make your decision for you. Yep. Do that. Man up. Crawl. Man up. And and I did and uh Yeah, so Through this uh through the sober living, it starts to come together and I have to go through like just swallowing a lot of pride along the way. This is you know uh it is going back to auto parts jobs, but not to the like I was a I'm a journeyman. in that field, I had to go work at O'Reilly for twelve dollars an hour. That's where I started. But that's that's what you have to do. And I wasn't super happy about it. I was bitter, but it's like I understood that like this is me getting a job and in the meantime Um, I start a podcast. I uh just because I miss the store. And uh I'm like, I need a hobby because I know how important one of the things about recovery is Going to the gym is really important and it's not to, it's more, it's for this more than anything. It's part of that routine, right? And having a hobby, like having a hobby you enjoy. So I'm like, well, I like uh we did the podcasting thing at the store. Let's just do one for shits and giggles. And uh me and my uh me and a friend. Okay. And um We did our first show in a Starbucks at West Portal in San Francisco. What'd you name the show? Uh well the the show was named uh Sutra Watchtower in the in originally, which is a terrible name, but it was just a placer name, right? 'Cause we were like literal because the shop The the Starbucks is under the Sutro Tower. Oh which is a giant antenna uh in in San Francisco. Okay. And we've got Watchtower, like you know, Watchtower. So it's a terri it's a terrible name. All creators have a terrible name for their first channel. But it was just a placeholder. Yes. Right. Uh and Yeah, we do the show and w I think we talked about Batman versus Superman and like the aero verse and you know And how are you handling being away from the comic book store and going a job day to day, how he just hit the drudgery, the regret. Uh it it I'm handling it by um going to meetings and talking about it and get myself a sponsor and temporary sponsors and whoever would have my ear. But it I'm i it's tough. It was really hard. How long does it take Melissa to to trust you again. Uh a while. A while. Uh we Once I got, I think I moved on. We were just about to move on. I went through a bunch of jobs. So I started O Riley and then I just Whatever would pay me more, I was gone. You know. Tesla? Uh, yeah, and ended up at Tesla eventually, but between that I worked at a German car place and uh Few Acura's, right? Uh Acura and Dodge. Uh and eventually end up at Tesla. But I'm I'm back home Within a few months, I'm back home. And uh it it Yeah, we're so I'm doing the podcast thing. I'm going to work every day. Uh and especially when it's up, you know, in Marin. So I'm going to Tesla. I work for Tesla. I finally get a job at Tesla. I work my way up. And what are you doing there? Oh well Tesla found me for some on on freaking LinkedIn of all things. Like I'm actually I'm the one person on earth who got a job on LinkedIn. Uh they sent me a message and they were in the process of trying to not be a tech company and be an automotive company because they have service centers, right? And they were treating them like tech centers. And it's like you can't do that. So they needed to bring in automotive people. And this was in 2000. Seventeen. So they found me and they offered me like all the money in the world and I'm like, okay. Well I they they're like, What would it take? And I'm like I'm gonna give them a stupid like How did you become Talented and And wanted. Why are you being recruited. What skills you've got to do. I think there were um I was on on LinkedIn already, but I just had a lot of experience in in auto parts. That's it. And and it Probably just as hard now, but it was hard to find people It's a generational thing, but it was hard to find people who who were My boy can't change an alternator. Yeah. Doesn't even know what it is. Yeah, so like Finding people who had skills uh in that field was getting tough. was getting tough and they had the money and they were just kind of Lingen I think. it everywhere to see, uh but the fact that they found me is so weird. And I found that email when I was at work at Toyota. I'm like, I'll just answer it. And then like they shot me back and I'm like, okay. just show them I'll just tell them how much money I want. And they said yes. And I'm like, okay, I guess I'm working there now. Uh it was fine. Like if for for big corporations, they're actually probably the best I've ever worked for. The Were you turn your ranches? Uh no, I was working in parts. So I was setting up a part I was helping with the parts department. That had no focus whatsoever. And when I left, it didn't have any either. That's the problem. Um but like, yeah, working at a Tesla parts, I won't bore anybody. It's just really different than working at a regular car because Teslas you're pretty much just changing tires. That's about it. Door handles, tires. and uh screens. And that's where you discovered YouTube can kill some time? Uh YouTube can kill a lot of time. So I was watching a lot of YouTube and I was still doing my podcast. And doing like a little A little bit here on YouTube. Um I was telling you earlier. We got kind of inspired by uh Talking Dead. But we were gonna talk about Walking Dead. I would we would find about Yeah, we we we cover Ash versus Evil Dead, Westworld, um, Counterpart, just any weird show. Mm-hmm. And we just do a live stream afterwards and uh American Gods. You know, and we we get a little traction there and it was through expanse we started getting A bunch of traction, which was great. Which was great. Before any culture nonsense started going on. Right. So this is all going on in the background while I'm working at these parts jobs. And yeah, and all people I'm friends with now, I'm all watching. I I'm at Tesla and I've got my phone down here. Who are you watching? Uh Jeremy from Geeks and Gamers. Yep. Yep. So Jeremy from Geeks and Gamers and then the early days Drinker. Sure. Uh yeah, I was watching Eric July, Young Ripa. Can they give it early? Uh Yellow Flash. Hell yeah, Yellow Flash. Uh well I was in his streams a lot back in the early days. Yeah. It was uh And uh Eventually, you know, the a couple of videos took off. Right. Um Uh First one that took off from me like big time was like 30,000 views was uh the expanse getting canceled. I did a video on that. Let's take a let's take a break. Okay Yeah, take a break because now we're getting into Nerdronic. Before we take the break, um How's Melissa doing with this podcast thing? She's watching you do it. You're having a wall. She thinks it's stupid. Uh no, she actually, she um She really appro she's she's part of the operation now. She's the brains of the operation. This thing doesn't happen without her. Um does she think I'm stupid all the time? No. Um no, she's really supportive. Uh and we could definitely get to like the part of the story. Where You know, she was freed up. to have all that time. But I think she's uh she's she's proud. She's proud of me. In in her way. Okay. Yeah. So you have a video that takes off. Right? Yes, relatively speaking. Oh no, I get it. Thirty thousand views took me two years. Yeah. Did you get to. So that's years to get to that. And when I saw it happen, I was just like it was the it was awesome. I was like Wow, thirty thousand people like a baseball stadium watched my video. What video was it? It was the expanse uh getting canceled. It was a for a bummer. It was a complete bummer, but I was it and was just reporting that it was canceled. And I had never really done a video. I was a live stream channel. Purely. Not thinking I did everything wrong. Right. When I started live streaming, it was just to back up podcasts. It was just to record the podcasts. So I had no idea people were watching. So I'll never forget one of my first I consider my first sub because he was the first one I contacted. Brian Smart, I love you. He emails me, he's all I have been trying to talk to you. But the last three weeks. There's a chat. Right below your that you're not paying attention to. I'm like, there's a chat. You didn't know? No, I had no idea. Your fans are there. So I g we start doing that. I'm like, Oh my God, there's four people in here. So it was total I'm like success. Tot success. This is all I ever wanted was just uh talk nerdy stuff. And uh I had another co host. He is a friend of mine, he's a good guy, he used to work for Netflix. um help built Disney plus. He's kind of a brilliant guy. Um It's not his fault what happened over there. No, it's not his fault. Um, but he's the one who's all you know, we can make money off this. I'm like Shut up. Can't make money off YouTube. I'm not gonna make any money. I'm not doing this for money. I I'm I'm happy. I like it. And and uh Were you aware of like monetization and all of that? Not Super aware and at the time I wasn't even monop monetized. So I'm like, that's not gonna happen. You know So you were making zero money. Zero doing it for fun. For years, just doing it for fun. Um, doing this exact same thing I do now, but just I just did it as a hobby because it was a chance to hang out with my friends. And it Yes. And it was doing something I truly loved. Every morning when I get up. Uh since Before the comic shop I get up and go to entertainment websites. So back twenty years ago was the force.net, the one ring.net, you know, just looking out all my nerdy stuff. It made me happy. That's it. So why not make a show around that? And then once something hits thirty thousand views and uh actors from the show contacted me and they're like, Hey, thanks for the support. I'm like, Hey, thanks for the great show. You know, like it was really a great show. Um see seeing it get picked up by Amazon was awesome. So big. It was huge. Uh and then, you know, we kind of kept doing I never thought to make videos still. So you're still not thinking about I can make money this. Yeah. So the the first video that took off was it technically a live stream. I did it live. But then once it hit VOD, it took off. And it didn't really click. Right away. Totally understand. And um Eventually I just started making videos. Because I was told Well, that helps you get subscribers. I'm like, well, I can do a video. I can edit a video real quick. And what I'll do is I'll just riff off my last live stream. You know, 'cause uh 'cause I I I mean, even to this day my channel has more live streams than it does videos. I think I've only done Wow. uh six hundred videos 'cause it says seventeen hundred on my channel. Six hundred of those are videos. The rest are live stream. So I I live stream way more. Uh, and I didn't think about it 'cause now I Somebody who makes videos, but I honestly live stream. You live stream all all the time. Everywhere. I love it. What were the uh the monetization requirements when you were getting close? Oh, it those were back in the days of you got a thousand subs? thousand subs and that was it? I don't even think it was a thousand subs. That's before me. You needed like four thousand watch hours. It was Four thousand watch hours and five hundred something I c I can't even remember. It's not the requirements that you have today. No. Do you remember when you hit it? I remember when I hit it and somebody gave me five dollars in a super chat. I'm like, Oh, that's awesome. Thanks. Uh You made money. I made money. Uh I remember Cash uh like transferring the first fifty dollars out of out of my account, just going right on. That's like absolutely easy money right there. And I was happy with it, and I didn't need any more. And To this day, I haven't asked for a super chat. I've never asked for a super chat. You haven't. No. No. Um and it it's it's been brilliant. Uh the support has been brilliant. But yeah, once the once that took off, Doctor Who happened. Right. And that was the first time What do you mean Doctor Who happened? Doctor Who's been happening for a long time. All right. So I guess I gotta frame that. Well Something things were happening within th this particular segment of pop culture. Yes. That made you angry. Yes. that I couldn't believe what was happening. Because if you like well, okay, so let's go to the expanse. You love the expanse, I love the expanse. The expanse kind of showed where entertainment was going at the time. It was prestige television. It was done right. Th the expanse season one and the first two seasons are 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. Science fiction, really a great take on the world, a pretty even take on the world. It was. And it was a diverse show that never said we're a diverse show. It was going that way naturally. It was kind of matching the demographics of America and the UK, and nobody was making an issue out of it. Well, it felt like this is where things would go. Yes. In the it's hard science fiction. Like this is how things would happen. Yep. Especially um So we're talking about going to Mars, the Belters and they're they have a unique culture and um a language. Yeah, the Belters were the teamsters. Mm-hmm. Uh Mars was military. Yep. And um Earth was the welfare state. Was the welfare state that was run by um the United Nations. And I thought it was a really accurate look at the United Nations. And everybody was on basic income. And everybody on basic income sat around their house and did nothing. Right. They got high. Yeah. And then you had the wealth gap. giant wealth gap and it was a problem. That's why people were leaving. That's why people would leave to Mars. You know, and Mars was militaristic, but they were goal oriented and they were It's it's complex, but there was a lot of pe a lot of Martians were just people. You know, and then they had like the space Mormons, which was funny. Uh but I thought it was a relatively objective look at life for the most part. Kinda changes later in the books. But uh It does. I stuck with them though. I have the books memorized. I did too. I I did too. I think they rallied at the end. The books rallied at the end. I there's a couple of books I don't like. Uh, but um What parts of the story the expanse bother you? Um Meet your Pa. You don't like pa, huh? I hate paw. I hate pa pa was um instrumental in destroying the earth. And Face no consequences for it. Totally agree. And I I would skip her scenes. No offense to the actress, skip her scenes in the book. Yep. Uh but I was okay with drummer. Yeah, Drummer was fine. Drummer was fine. With Bull being kinda In there. Yeah. All right. I I I see where you're coming from. And then they went away from Holden in the later books. I just completely. I'm like, What are we doing? Uh, but it rallied at the end. It it it and really and ans unlike the show, answers the proto molecule. Like tells you what's going on. Right. So if you watch the show and not read the books There's You just got started. You just got started. It's basically Game of Thrones, you know, like ending at at a dance with dragons or a song of Ice and Fire, and except you can read the books and find out what's going on. I forget which run whether it's Ty I don't forget, but he was his George's assistant for a while. Yeah. Yeah. So Oh, both Ty Frank and uh Dan Abraham are were are like uh protogés. Right. They're like the two people who could probably go and finish a song of ice and fire on the planet. Yeah, so they they w they were making like a an RPG. Some and so this would be a good novel. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it started out as at as as a game. Um, I wish they hadn't gotten super political uh a few years ago. They haven't s well, not that I've seen since, but uh I was yeah, I was a huge supporter of the show and I still say still watch it. I still think it's pretty good. Um what how how's that track with Doctor Who and and what you were doing? So Hollywood drastically changed uh post Well there's a couple things. Uh the first Trump administration and me too. kinda coincided. Twenty fifteen, twenty six twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, something radically changed. in Hollywood. What are the origins of that? I can get really in the weeds with that. Um I think it a lot of it was dictated from the Obama administration and on You don't have to get into the weeds on that because That's an opinion. But it's my opinion. It is my opinion. But what happened to the storytelling is kind of fact. Yeah, whatever the origins were. Right. Right. And I have my I have my suspicions, which I've gone over a lot on my channel. It did change. And we saw characters like Luke Skywalker turned into broken men who try to kill their nephew because they had a bad dream and sit on an island drinking uh the Ubi milk from a giant space manatee. And while they were trying to introduce new characters in a Star Wars franchise that everybody would have been fine with. It was the treatment of Han Solo, it was the treatment of Luke Skywalker, and it was clearly not creatively driven. All of all of that was not creatively driven. It was social and political. motivations behind these decisions. Um a lot of channels were born. With uh With the last Jedi and The Force Awakens and um And the rise of Skywalker. I got into the mix. So are those bad movies because it's a female lead? No, they're bad movies because they weren't planned, they were poorly written, and the female lead was propped up. Uh Basically She was propped up. By Degrading the legacy characters. So that's where the frustration comes in. Now you will hear the excuse from the access media and even people who work on the show when Lucasfilm that people just hate women. Uh every Star Wars fan would have been completely fine with a female lead and a female Jedi. And Finn, who was Actually the more interesting character out of all of them who they made a clown, not the fans. The fans were mad. them for the treatment of Luke. What we have been waiting for is to see full powered, full Jedi Luke who could uh like in Dark Empire, who could bring down a a Star Destroyer with the force. We just wanted to see that. That's all we wanted to see. I did I heard that even Mark Hamill You didn't love the way that character wrapped up. Uh he was not happy. He was clearly not happy, and he was showing that throughout the press. Now they told him to finally shut up. I don't think he ever ful. And you can uh get mad at Mark for other things he said. You can, but I don't care about what he said. I don't care about his political positions. I care about the story. It as far as the story of Star Wars, he was clearly not happy about it. And neither were the fans. You mentioned a phrase access media. You coined that. That's but that's a term that is used now in media. What does that mean? Uh access media is the Corporate media that essentially and not all corporate media. It's also some independent media that will Basically throw softballs. as far as interviews go and uh be talk so the toxic neg negativity, there's also toxic positivity. And they will gas up, gaslight, um, things that aren't very good so they can maintain their access. And that it is not for money at all. I mean, I've said it before. I'd almost respect that more if you did that for money because that's that's something of value. No, it's just to maintain your access and what they get is screen they get early access to movies or TV shows. They get screeners. Um, and when you're watching them, they've got like some giant watermark thing over them. Annoying um And uh instead of being authentic and honest all the time. Uh, they pretty much they're really soft on their criticism and really crazy and it's absolutely unbelievable with their overpraise. Things like Ironheart or the Marvels, which are just objectively bad. So they have to review these positively or they don't get the next interview. Yep. Or at least think that way. Now it's not this is not your opinion. This is a this is how it works. This is how it works. And it's not like the studios tell them that. The studios don't tell them that. They they do it on their own. Mm-hmm. And what happened is people like yours truly or anybody else who went to them normally, like us I used to go to a CBR or screen rant. for my news all the time, right? Or ain't it cool news. Um And Honestly, ain't it cool news back in the day was the most real. They were absolutely the most real, especially Moriarty. Um He was like a a a drinker prototype. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he would shred stuff. And that's why I love the guy because I knew, well, this guy's honest. You know, and I didn't agree with him all the time. But You started seeing uh these these giant sites and these critics Who uh Really? They went out of their way, uh, to I mean, to just c to call movies that are obviously flaw like you can like we can have a difference of opinion of like Shang Chi, right? Yes. Uh I some people could think it's good. I think it's terrible, but it's not the worst thing Marvel's ever done. I think it made money, yeah. Uh no, it didn't. It didn't. Okay. Well I got it. That's how they should decide, but the what where they're gaslighting people is saying these things are making money when they're not. Um, the the year that Shang Chi came out and the Eternals, and I think it was Black Widow, uh, Marvel wrote down sixty five million dollars the studio. So they didn't make money. If you're writing down money You're not making any money. So if a movie makes We hear the numbers all the time. A movie makes three hundred million dollars, that's not really the number, is it? But no. It does box office three hundred million. That's That's the money it it okay, so if a movie makes if they announce it Yes. Right, that is the movie uh that is the money it generated at the box office. So that's free split. Yeah. And that's not including the marketing budget. It's not including marketing budget. That's not including anything you're paying the actor afterwards. That's not including the theaters take. Which is about half. Which is about half. It averages out half. Internationally, it's uh it's a little more. They get, you know, China gets a huge amount. of the money. And then it evens out here. Uh, particularly with Disney, which can kind of strong arm the theaters and and have been for a long time. So Disney gets sixty percent of the domestic. In a lot of cases. So th uh it's just It's We're just um it's semantics, it's parsing words, and it's bullshit. And then They're not calling out. So the press is supposed to call this stuff out. So we started calling it out. And listen, I didn't know anything about it. So I just researched it and I talked to people. I talked to people who work in Hollywood. I talked to people who had knowledge of the box office and just lear what they taught me. And it's pretty easy. Like theaters don't show movies for free. Right. So when we're so when I when I went out and called Shang Chi a flop, it was a flop. It did not profit. And uh I got called out by Seemo Lou. Which is fun. It's fine. Um but called out for what? For criticizing? Call calling it a flop. When and he said it wasn't a flop, but it was a flop. It w it was it did not it was the technical term of a flop. The technical definition, which is it did not profit at the box office. We had the same battle Superman. Now I wouldn't go out and call Superman a flop, but it certainly didn't perform as well as it should have. But that that's where the access media comes from. It is just this divide and this disconnection. And they are just became a PR firm for the studios. So independent people like myself and others, Jeremy from Geeks of Gamers, Yellow Flash, Drinker, Mauler. Just started do their doing their own thing, right? And and none of us have ever said like our opinion is the be all end all. It is just an opinion. But people started gravitating towards it because It was the truth. You know, and and you know, sometimes I get things wrong and sometimes they get things wrong and and the the cool thing is we can go, oh, I got that one wrong. Is are there any um movies or T V shows that you criticize that later on you're like actually okay? Hmm. Uh if we go way back. There's movies I was way hard on and uh like Thor Dark World Uh I I think I was a little too hard on that movie. I actually everybody calls it not that bad. It's not But when you can see other like uh the Star Wars prequels, have they not benefited the most from the Disney trilogy? I Those aren't that bad. Is that a hot take? I don't mind those movies. I Hated them when they came out. Yes. I have Very much softened my opinion on them. I don't think they're great. We could do without Jar Jar. The Hobbit trilogy. I hated it when it came out. And I and I watch it all the time now. It won me back. It won me back. So anything recent that I uh I can't say Can't say. Um Yeah, nothing yeah, like it's not like I've gone back to Doctor Who. If we want to get back to the uh and Doctor Who go, oh it wasn't that bad. I want to know what attracted attention to you. So what you why you're doing. Oh, I just came out and said the doctor's not a woman. So when they when they The changes of Doctor Who were happening even before Jody Whitaker came along and it was getting um it was getting filled with just uh political nonsense. uh beforehand, even with Capaldi who did a great job. I mean like it's I wish he would have gotten better scripts 'cause he's one of the better doctors and one of the better actors to play it. And I have a lot of respect for that guy. But when they have a lot of respect for Jody Whitaker, she's a brilliant actress. And a lot of this is not the talent's fault. It's not. The only thing like as far as her taking a job I don't criticize her for that. It's when she chok took the job and what she said. Then I'll criticize her. Fair enough. Then I'll criticize her because if she had just gone I'm gonna do the best I can as a doctor. Like to come out with um that's fine. I'm gonna I'll I'll criticize the show, but I'm not really gonna get on her. And I use the term The first female doctor play by Jody Whitaker because that's how the access media referred to her, like all the time. So that's why I used it in all of my videos. It became a label culture. It it did. It did. And When she when when they showed the transition from uh uh you know that she was gonna be the next doctor. Um I kind of knew was Doctor Who pressing the panic button a little bit. Something Stephen Moffitt even said prior to he said if all if we if they change the doctor into a female the they're pressing the panic button. Well they did. Too soon, in my opinion. And my opinion was at the time and still is that the doctor's a male character. And the only reason you changed the doctor into a female character, it was not a creative decision. It was one to grab headlines and it was one motivated by social and political. Uh it was it has social and political motivations. It was not a creative one. They don't know where to go with this. And if they're gonna do a female doctor, are you gonna really We're gonna explore. the real differences between a male doctor and a female doctor. Um and they didn't. They didn't. They didn't. They just treated it the same. Her first episode record breaking, but I was I was there reviewing it and I just said, the doctor's not a woman. And it was at that time That could get you um suspended on Twitter. I remember. Yeah. It was crazy. So that's all I said. It wasn't anything crazy. Um Why do you think you're labeled far right? Are you far right? No. Um, I think I'm labeled far right for the same reasons. A lot of people get labeled far right is you don't agree with One extreme political sect. on a hundred percent of everything. I mean, look at how they treat JK Rowling as is progressive as they get. She's uh she goes off the reservation for one issue. And look at look at like what she goes through. So I don't know. I I I'm not a hyper political person. But as far as uh I mean, we've had the discussions about it. As far as like whatever uh criticisms were flung at me, I I'm on the internet. I understand I'm on the internet and I don't really care what people think. I'm glad you don't care. I I don't think they know you support Amnesty International. Gay rights, gay children at risk, all that. They don't think they know they're aware of that. Nope. Do you think uh By changing the This beloved IP, are the intentions good? Are they trying to do something good for Society. Mm. Yes, I think some of 'em have that in their mind that the intentions are good. W but we all know. What gets uh what gets paved with uh good intentions. We do. We do. Um I think there are some true believers in there that feel like they're you're you're getting to a modern audience and you're uh accessing children with certain messaging. The problem is I I disagree with a lot of that, but beyond that, it's There's no such thing as a modern audience. That's the thing they're always chasing. It's just it doesn't exist. Well, okay. I'm gonna reframe that. It does. but there's not enough of them. What you want, there's always the audience. You want if you're making Doctor Who or Star Trek or Star Wars, you want that to have the most mass appeal as possible. Sure. And as I said earlier, if you have a message you want to get across to get people to think about. Don't answer the question for 'em. Present it to 'em. With respect. Which is not not spoon feeding it to them. And and that's what a talented writer does. A talented like even Alan Moore. We know where Alan Moore comes from politically. Uh thinks he's a wizard. He's a he's a brilliant writer. But even he can write a really good Superman story like whatever happened to the man of tomorrow. You know, he doesn't let that get in the way of telling a good story. You know, J. Michael Strazynski. You know, uh I loved Babylon five. And yeah, and I think Babylon five actually goes into some stuff that he sometimes a story can go beyond the writer, and I think it really Lot of stuff that happened during Covid. You can look at some Babylon five episodes that, you know, there was no intention there, but they really say a lot about it. So that's that's what good storytelling does. And and it doesn't it doesn't drive people away because if you are if your intention is like, I want people to think about this, well, you want the most people to think about it as possible. So you don't talk down to them. You don't uh like I said earlier, you don't like start a story going, listen up, bigots. That's not the way to convince the way to convince somebody. And it's really It really divided fandom in a way that I've never seen in my life. Now fandom has always been crazy and critical. Um and there are like like you thought you could change the doctor into a woman and people wouldn't speak up. That's kind of crazy. Uh thinking about it now. How many arguments did you see at the comic book store about This comic verse that one, this character. Every day. And it was great. I loved 'em because they were good spirited debates. And uh like I and I'm an idiot, so I'm sitting there arguing with customers. And we're like yelling at each other, but we're cool afterwards. Um, yeah, and I had to hear some crazy stuff, but I you know what? I listened to them. I sat there, uh, art, art bell. Greatest interviewer ever. Yep. Um, non confrontational. Like you kick back a little bit. But I listen to a lot of art. And he will let people have their say with respect, right? And part of uh I think being on a on a live stream in particular is you're you are kinda running some customer service. And you gotta kinda let people talk. Let people do their thing and listen to it. And if it's insane, you can kick back a little bit, but there's still a way to kick back without You know, calling the guy an an a hole. Why do you think um nerd culture, geek culture, which I come from. Mm-hmm. You know, reading your book. It's almost like reading autobiography at some places. The way I came to Tolkien is the same way through the the seventies cartoons and Star Wars I remember waiting online as a kid. Changes me. Why do you think Hollywood went after these this particular beloved IP with hardcore fans. And wanna change it. Why why why is that the target? Uh the Well, I mean, my opinion on the matter is Hollywood went after it because they wanted to they felt they were gonna force the change that was needed. Uh consequences be damned. Because this is what we we know better. So we're gonna I mean with Doctor Who, we're going to take something away. That was the whole because with Doctor Who, you can Make a separate series. with a female they're time ladies, they were called. You could have done that. Uh, and Doctor Who fans would have watched it. You could have had a Doctor Who show. And and a time lady show. You could have you could have done that, and they didn't do it. Because they wanted it, they felt like somehow you're being inclusive by taking something away. And we still see it to this very day, right? And it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't add to anything. Has it worked with any of these? Um, no. Honestly. No. None of these worked. You can have some like uh side characters where it works and like I'm not militant when it comes to race or gender swaps when it's with a side character. Like in Harry Potter, if you make Susan Bones black, I don't know. Uh but Snape is a problem. Snape is a problem. Snape is a problem. And Doctor Who was just as big of a problem. It fundamentally changes the show. It fun it changes the path. So And then what they did knowing with Doctor Who, like what a problem it would be. Uh, instead of just having the female doctor show up and leave. Which they could have done. They're like, no, we need to reinforce her in the story. So we need to change the origin. So when they went back and changed the origin, and I heard way in advance, I I I had a friend who was working with uh with Doctor Who. who I knew from the comic shop days was telling me what's going on. I'm like you you gotta be kidding me. He's all no no they're gonna change the origin of Doctor Who. I learned a lot of this stuff from your videos and I would say the same thing. You know, Gary said this is gonna happen. I'm like, there's no way they're gonna do that. been 40 years. They're not gonna do that. They're not gonna retcum the 40 year. They but they did. They did it. And they did it to reinforce the female doctor. And they thought it was uh they thought it was going to get to the new modern audience. Did any of this bring in women? Did it bring in any of these Nope. It didn't. Nope. It's still the same people watching this this IP in generally. It's the hardcore Doctor Who fans who are hanging on. And what Hollywood has failed to learn that is you know, you buy a really expensive IP for that built-in audience. That built-in audience are the ones who are They shepherd new fans in. They are the custodians. They you you the company own it, but Star Trek fans are the ones who make more Star Trek fans. My wife loves the MCU. My wife loves Star Trek because she would sit there I would watch it. As you know, as the nerd who knows everything. She doesn't know anything, she just knows it's a fun, good story. Yep. She hasn't really watched any of that anymore. No, because they're not fun they're not fun. Doctor Who, she became a fanatic. Back to Eccleston. We she became a fanatic. And when when Tennant came on, that's it. We we were done. We were in. Well we're out. I it it's oh God, it's such a shame. You know, I was just uh I'm going through some classic who now, right now, and it's like It's a show. It was made for nothing. And it's and it's It really is just carried with its acting and its storytelling. 'Cause you've got, you know, Tom Baker talking to a paper mache dude. Like it's tinfoil. It's terrible. I loved it when I Tom Baker I loved it when I was a kid. I didn't notice Some of the themes are really like really dark and and like And magnificent. And I know that there was a lot of criticism in the UK about that, but I loved it as a kid. Uh you think things are coming back? The pendulum always swings. I think so, but I think it's because I wish it was because, you know, we see the error of our ways, we are villainizing uh and demonizing. Um paying customer, our audience, the people who got us here. uh and and constantly saying we don't need you by we're hunting for a modern audience. We're looking for a neuter newer audience, right? And it's like You know, word of mouth is still the best marketing There is. Telling a story is still a pretty good idea. It's a good idea. And You You forego that because you're searching for Potential. Right. I've never understood that. There's nothing that there's no There's no data out there that says uh Gen Z was gonna get into Doctor Who if you change change it to a woman. There's no data. None. There's zero. But they'll show up for a good story because they won't the audience is still the audience. So you went from being ignored And now you have influence. Um, I got attacked uh and it was Well you're still being attacked you're gonna be attacked for this as will I. Yeah, you will. I will. Sorry. I care so much. Uh-huh. Um when I was. I don't care. Thanks, brother. I feel like I'm in a coma somewhere. I don't want to wake up. This is we do this for a living. So who cares? Yeah, it's it's really kind of the greatest gig in the world. Isn't it? So when uh When you get attacked on the internet, I like not everybody's gonna and this is no judgment on nobody wants to get the emails I get or you get, or Nobody wants to get that stuff. But You know, y if you keep it in mind, like I I don't know, I've got the grading curve of life, where I the stuff I've been through, I'm like this is nothing. Like I I'm not worried about it. That's why I spent so much time with your story. Because um a lot of the hate you get really isn't warranted. Cause no you there's no misogyny in you. There's no racism. There's really no political leaning. You just want your stories told properly. Mm-hmm. And and beloved IP just left alone. I think that's okay. I I think it's okay to adapt something properly and it doesn't mean you They have plenty of room and original material to do whatever messaging they want. Well you you're influencing now. Do you feel that's that power is earned? Of of having influence in Hollywood. Because they know who you are, I know that for a fact. Oh I talked to Studio Execs of all the big studios, and they know who Gary is, and will And everybody. Um and they're making decisions based on you guys. Oh wow. That I doesn't hit my mind very much at all. I try not like because of uh Where the relapse came in last time. Mm-hmm. So I try to keep things very much in check. I think that's a good thing. But I am just an idiot with the microphone and 'cause your back Where you are at the comic list, you're hot shit again. You can't let ego Gary come back. No. Cause you'll lose it all. No. I hope they listen to the people in the comment section and the people in the chat. I hope they, you know, take a good look at that. And see what people are 'cause um you know, during a live stream, we'll have people rewrite. uh the last Jedi or the last episode uh uh Starfleet Academy or we'll have a Robert Mar Burnett on Friday Night Tights who pitched a better Starfleet Academy than the one they like one I would watch. You know, so they're they're it's not all um them slinging, you know, whatever they're slinging. So tell me about Friday Night Tights because that's uh you're what, hundreds of episodes of that. How did that start? Uh 400. Four hundred. And what is FNT? FNT is a shit show. It is um It's uh it's a live stream that we do every Friday. And it is climbed up to nine co-hosts. And we talk about pop culture every every Friday. We've been doing it for uh This version of it for six years. I've been doing a Friday show for eight years. And it's true you've never had uh anyone black or female on there. That's true. Never, not once. No. Not nobody gay. Uh no. No. You're being sarcastic. Because you have. Yes. A lot. You have. A lot. And um and what we learn is fans are fans and the labels don't even matter. Nope. So what makes F and T differ? Because I but there's bazillions of these shows. There is. Um, I think it's the good mix the chemistry of personalities and no filter. At all. And what we really try to lean on like making you laugh. That's the whole point is of the show is to make you laugh. And it's it's just a bunch of people who like each other genuinely um shooting the shit for three or four hours. And it's it's no different than any other conversation of fans anywhere else that that you have with your family or at a diner. Um, and there's no plan to it at all. We kinda throw up we bullet point some subjects, we get to about three of 'em, we go off on tangents. Uh so there isn't any real structure of the show. Don't create any. Just leave it just leave it chaos. I don't even think we know how. I don't know how. I I don't know what I'm doing either. So what for Forbidden Frontier is something I came across accidentally and didn't know that Gary did this. What is that show? It is uh another passion of mine. Like you, I like I listen to Art Bell. Have you ever heard of Ark Bell and Dr. Demento? Oh yeah. Doc Dr. Demento. Is uh I listened to Dr. Demento before Art Bell, like years and years. Same. Um seventies. Yeah, back in the seventies. And the this this is how I grew up. But um Yeah, with UFOs and Bigfoot and Ancient Civilizations, Eric von Daneken, uh Charles Br Charles Brlitz was like the gateway sure drug for a lot of people with um the Bermuda Triangle. Um For me it might've been Grand Hancock in the nineties. was the gateway. Yeah. The uh the pre flood society, the fingerprints of the gods. Graham, I think, graduated the subject to something way more legit. Yes. Like I always like all respect to the late Eric von Daneken, chariots of the gods. And we go back to Vilikovsky, who honestly I didn't know about till later. Yes. Where all of this uh where all of this comes from. And in search of. I watched in search of all the time. Sure. And uh X Files and remember the show Sightings? Of course. That was the pre uh so I've always been into this all my life and listened to art, but when yeah, when Graham came around, he took the subject of ancient civilizations and made it more palatable. Right. And And did it honestly. Uh but and as a real journalist. As a real journalist who actually goes places and looks at these things w and and paid for it with his own money. 'Cause Art Bell was the best to ever do it, but some a lot of it was wacky, man. He was always very respectful, but a lot of it was just wacky. But you read Graham's work and said he's this is serious stuff. You know, Robert Schock and even Randall Randall Carlson. These are real scientists. This is real stuff. It's real stuff and I mean you can't undersell when Randall and and well Graham and Randall were doing them separately, but when they got together and did that on Joe Rogan, that really launched it. And that's why we have Um Uh a lot more legitimacy. Uh in this including a in a Netflix special with two seasons for Graham Hankup, which I never thought I'd see. Nope um and they tried to cancel that. They did. Ancient Apocalypse. I defended him hard on the channel when he was attacked for being a racist. Yeah. It's like That is the most ridiculous thing I and like It's like you don't know anything about this man. Right. So it was very nice. Right, so it was here we go again. But I'm always frightened like I was just getting started. I'm not really controversial, but I am a l I I go pretty hard against government and all of that. Um So when when when Joe Rogan when they when CNN tried to cancel him and they were going after Spotify, I was terrified. 'Cause I was I was making a few bucks. Yeah. And it was like if they cancel Joe, this all goes away. Yep. And Spotify stuck by him. And then everything started to relax. It's like everything started to change. I think was that moment. That was uh surprising. Yes. But they stuck by them. Cause I know a lot of employees in there didn't want to stick by 'em. Yep. But I think they saw the investment and saw That Joe isn't What what CNN was trying to make him out to me, which is just ridiculous. No, no, he's just a regular guy. Like just a guy. He's just a dude. And he looks at things from a very dude perspective. Uh, and I think that that that I think it's really endearing. And that's why he's the best podcaster out there. And all the things he criticized. Back in those days, you criticized, I did. Turns out we were right. Yep. Which I knew the whole time. We were right. And now we're allowed to be right. And uh he Joe kicked that door in by sticking by sticking to his guns. Spotify sticking with it, um, Elon coming in and buying Twitter and changing that, which absolutely changed UTU. Yes. I mean, and and Facebook and everybody everything else. Um YouTube is uh it ain't perfect, but it's way I am been Break the streak. We haven't been demonetized on F and T in long time. Well a knock on wood. Yeah. I I don't dodge that bullet every week, but but I try. Uh I'm used to not doing I like I was fine with it, but it's just it what you can get away with now on YouTube, aside from a couple things. What do you think happened? Why I think when when Elon exposed uh through the Twitter files when they exposed all the government interference because if they were interfering with Twitter. They're they're at Google right now. They're they're they're everywhere right now. They are. They still are. But that had to get loosened up and I also think advertisers We can't we can't discount the money in. Nope. So advertisers were losing a chip by by acting, you know, c clutching their pearls and saying, We cannot show ads on this stuff. And they saw how much they were losing, how much money they were losing because you could advertise on all this YouTube stuff. And Joe was demonetized the whole time and then woke up one morning and it was just on. Yep. I didn't say anything. Just quiet. Because the advertisers loosened up a little bit. Yeah, they I would like to have thirty million people look at my ad. Yep. It's the same story, it's just about people and audience. It's not about point of view really. No. And it w and it's not like it was we look back on it and go, that was really common sense and that was considered highly controversial. That's that's how we get we get caught up in this stuff. It's one of the darkest times in our history. I'll never forget the day Jen walked in and said they're gonna lock down the sea. We were in LA at the time. they're gonna lock down the city, close all businesses. And I laughed at her. I said, What you they can't do that And they said they're gonna do it for two weeks. I couldn't believe it. I stayed open. I Good for you. Bro curfew stayed open in the studio just went to hell. No one would come in, no masks, they wouldn't come in, and we're out of business during the riots. That was the end of that. The riots. Mm-hmm. Lovely riots. Which weren't really covered on the news, but L LA burned. I've never seen police cars on upside down on fire before, but I did I did that week and then that's when we left LA. Um So Forbidden Frontier is a great success. You guys really know your stuff. Like I l I look to you 'cause I don't know anything. I'm just an entertainer. I look to you guys. You're the you're the like the reporters kicking in the doors following the stuff. Um, I watched you live stream a congress congressional hearing, I think, of where it goes. What do you think's going on with disclosure? Uh, I think we're in a worse shape now than than we ever have been. So Um I and it's just because I've been following this as a hobby. So I'm I know lots of lit of bits and pieces, but you'd have to definitely go to the Richard Dolans of the world to For the expertise. Um Yeah. We covered that one and that was frustrating. Just all the stuff that has to go on in the Skiff. And I do believe And it took me a while to get to this. I believe there is a faction in the government that really wants to let us know. Um why? I don't know. I I I think there is some danger involved. Uh I know there's the The Steven Greer point of view, where this the the the all the aliens are if they're out there, if they're us, whatever they are, they're nice. I I don't know if I can buy that. Maybe. It c it's a possibility. They could if they could a If they had the power to wipe us out, they could have wiped us out already. There's certainly that. Do you think it's extraterrestrials, aliens from other worlds? Was it interdimensional? Is it future time traveling humans? Yes. Yes to all of them. I think it's yes to all of those. I I haven't decided yet. I go back and forth It's definitely something. I just I think inter dimensional maybe is what I'm falling on now. That they've been here for a long time. That they're in the water. That they're in the ocean. Yes. So where I'm leaning. Uh, but I could change. That can change. Um But with that last government hearing where we just heard nothing and the same stuff over and over again, it just it was discouraging. So if we I don't know where the UFO topic goes now. I always thought if we get disclosure it won't be from a government. I don't even if a government came out if Trump or whatever president of another party came out. And said, Yep, we talked uh we talked to Zorg from the Pilates and uh we're we have uh like p half of the w country's not gonna believe it. They're not. So it'll have to be Something insane like uh Uh the Phoenix Lights. Uh a UFO flying slow over a big city where we can get multiple camera angles and then still half the population will think it's AI. Yes, they will. It's it's it's in a bad place right now. They don't know where you go. You've been You're into the ancient stuff. You've actually gone into the field. Mm-hmm. Yes. Where have you been? Been to Peru and Egypt so far. And we're gonna go to Japan. We're gonna go check out megalithic Japan. What, Yanaguni? Uh yeah. Well, no, not the I'm not gonna be diving. Uh, but no. Uh basically w where the where the palace is, you know, just so the polygonal stones. Yeah. We're gonna we're gonna look at the at there's there's quarries, there's giant stuff on there, but going to uh Sacy Wam on for the first time. I don't know if you've ever been there. It is mind blowing. Utterly mind blowing. And uh it really, you know, I can hear all this stuff all day long and I can read all the Graham Hancock, but when I when you go there and you see like, how in the hell did they do this? And you know, I don't think it was aliens. I always think it was humans. We were pretty industrious. I don't think it's that crazy to think that there was a civilization that was maybe as advanced uh let's say as the Romans. You know, uh ten thousand years before the Romans, or eight thousand years before the Romans. That got wiped out during a Apocalypse basically during a a cataclysm. That's uh looking like actually happen. It is looking like that. Yeah. With Gobekli Tepe and Well cukutarla. It's looks like they were here. Um Great Pyramid. Egyptians built or found. I think Built. From direction from um Plans. For lack of a better term. From uh blueprints from a previous culture. Interesting. Previous. So maybe there was a foundation there already that they uh I I think the pyramids have been have been Rebuilt. Probably multiple times. There's some evidence. Kinda like well the Sphinx for sure. The Sphinx has been put back together. Uh, we were just there in Egypt and we saw um You know, the uh the erosion evidence that Robert Shock And John Anthony West had uh exposed many, many years ago. Yeah, they're putting a wall over it. They're putting a wall over that? Yep. Yep. So You went hard after Zahi Was after he was on Joe's show. Yeah, he was ridiculous. Um Do you think he's gatekeeping or do you think he's protecting his culture? Um there's a national identity to Egypt to Egyptians that's that they're proud of and should be. Yes, I think that that is the I think that is the motivation behind some of the the the roadblocking we're seeing on some of the archaeology is they're trying to protect Uh Peruvi. Peru's a lot cooler about it than than Egypt is. Um I gotta be care. I don't I I don't trust the thing Zahi H Hawas says. I think he's a complete I think he's shady as hell. It wasn't a good look for him on that show. And no, he he did he did more uh he did more good for Graham Hancock and Random Carlson and Robert Schock than anybody could have dreamt after that appearance. uh always talking about his book, taking credit for stuff that he didn't discover. Uh and And some people who've met him said he's a complete nice guy, but uh I Just the impression I get is he is. Stopping progress there. And maybe, you know, tell us why. Uh I think the most exciting thing. Is the labyrinth. The Labyrinth in Egypt. Uh Ben Van Kur Kirkwick. This is the Huaara Lab. Yeah. uh has done some great work on this. Not that he discovered it, but he's done some great work on Charted X. Has done some great work and great videos on these. And I think that will be the most exciting discovery of the twenty first century. Uh we need to and and there's some politics behind it. Uh it's getting flooded out and because of the water is being diverted because they need to help agriculture. Which they do. Which they do. They need to find a way to divert that water so we can drain it and Figure out what's down there. And we don't have much time for that labyrinth. No, we don't. And Lidar has shown that there are we know there's structures down there. And that labyrinth has been discussed by Ovid, Pliny the Elder, all these great historians. Strabo all visited and said it goes down they saw thirty five hundred rooms, it goes down three stories. It's there. Some have said there's a giant oval ring made of metal in the center of it. The exact same size as the well, not exact. But close to the same size as the Tic Tac. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Um it's it's wild and I would love to know and why not? You know, Zay seems to stop a lot of that stuff. And um You would think Yeah, it Egypt relies a lot on tourism. That would That would be a I'd love to see that. I would. I'd go back. I'd go back. Um, it was definitely worth going. For sure. It was amazing seeing some of that stuff. Uh Egypt's an interesting country. You got your media empire. What do we have? Oh boy. We've got FNT, Forbidden Frontier, you got your videos, Neurotic Daily. Yeah. What else are you doing? Oh my God. I think that's pretty much wraps that uh that's it. That's a lot. That's a lot. That keeps me busy. I've got a couple editors, um, X Ray Girl, you know, Cord Black, Harry Chan. Uh and well we we uh We do tours once in a while with Michael Collins from Wandering Wolf. Yeah. So we'll be doing the Japan thing. Uh that takes up all my time. And you know you're living the dream now. Absolutely. This is the greatest gig in the world. Uh you said daily practice gratitude daily. Yep. What's that what's the mechanics of that? Because some days are shitty, man. That's when it's the most important. So what do I do? How do you do it? Oh, you catch yourself in okay, I catch myself. in a bad mood or feeling excessively negative about just like really mundane stuff in life. And Uh I just it's it's a mindset of turning it around by thinking of three Three things. that you're thankful for. And the first one could be, wow, I've got uh There's a wife out there who loves me for some reason. I don't know why, but she does. Um my kids like me. That's awesome. Not every not every kid loves their father. Uh and what you know, and we have this amazing job. Like that that Thanks to the support of so many brilliant people out there. Uh it's definitely something we we work at, right? But it's like I've said it before. It's like winning a lottery that you work really hard to get to. That's a great way of describing it. You go to meetings? Yes. Go to meetings. So And we'll wrap up with this. There are people listening now 'cause I know they're out there. That are addicted, that are struggling depression. They're in booze and drugs to cope. Can you tell them who the most important person in their life is? Oh, they are. They are. They are. They're the most important person in their lives. And and um people love them. People care about them. And the world can still benefit from them turning stuff around. It's never too late. It's never ever too late. Uh and If you try sobriety, I can promise you it will not be easy, but I can also promise you it will get better way faster. Your life will get better way faster than you think. Uh and it it just give it a try. Um, you know, people can try reha I don't want to discourage anybody from getting sober any way they want, but definitely whatever you do. Make sure you go to meetings too. Um really they're free. And you'll find some of the most welcoming, forgiving people on earth in there. And just make some friends see what happens. You're an inspiration. Is the proof that it works. Gary, thanks for coming in. It's been a choice. Been awesome. Thanks. Bye, everybody. That was Gary Beakler. I know his name is spelled wrong. Everyone calls him Bootchler. Gary Beakler, The Prison Story, The Comic Shop, The Relapse, The Comeback, Doctor Who, The Access Media. We covered a lot. Gary's book covers the old Folsom story in full, and it's a different kind of read than you'd expect from a pop culture guy. If you only know him from Nerdrotic, Buckle up, the book is wild. I was gonna say in graphic, it's not that graphic, but it's it's pretty intense. So there's not much to analyze about what we talked about here, because Gary's my friend, but here's a few nuggets. The Doctor Who situation he described tracks with what actually happened. Series 11 opened huge, over 9 million viewers in the UK. Then the new showrunner Ret Cond The Doctor's Origin in series 12, rewriting 55 years of canon in a single episode. Ratings collapsed. The VVC eventually replaced everyone and brought the original showrunner back. We'll see how it goes, but I'm not getting my hopes up. Gary mentioned Disney was racking up some serious losses. Well Disney did report roughly 1.5 to 2.5 billion dollars in content write downs in 2023. Gary's math is correct. Gary is controversial. but he probably shouldn't be. His grievances align with what a lot of people were already feeling. He was just one of the first people to call it out. The pattern he identified, putting politics ahead of story, showed up in Doctor Who, in Star Trek, and Marvel and Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, and now in Harry Potter. He called it every time, before most people were even paying attention. Gary's memoir is Waiting from Prison to YouTube on Amazon, and it's a great read. His channel is Nerd Rodic, Friday Night Tights goes live every Friday, Forbidden Frontier is where he covers ancient mysteries, UAPs, and WiFi house kind of stuff. It's probably better than the Wi Fi's. The links are down below. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you. I appreciate it. That's a little mumbly. Do another take. Leave it in. Believe it are 51 A secret code inside the Bible said I was I love my UFOs and paranormal bonds As well as music Song sangin' like I should The conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends And it never ends I know it never end The crap at it I got stuck in the shot mouth home With MKI trust I've been on week to overstand the cubic face the moon landing alone On a film shed with a shadow before And his name was Cole And I can't meet I'm gonna with the baby They mess with the J Web Web Water What you just keep the truth Web The mop man sides and the solar stones still come to a gata The secret city underground Mysterious numbers stations Panna surf for to graphic star game And what the dark watch us found The black knights that I light and show me so I can leave I'm dancing with the fish Hish on Thursday next with the J Web When they change you all the white wants to get in the tree So we all go She is a camel, camels love to death when the feeling is why the way she