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And so you stick your arm out the curtain and the person sticks her nose into your armpit and takes meticulous notes and she is grading for things like mal odor, which is the official industry term for beau , but also the integrity of the fragrances that are intended to mask that VO . I'm Christine Zirk Classette, I'm Kyra Blackwell, and you're listening to the Wire Cutter Show. Hi Ra, Christine. It is officially summer. It's officially hot New York City summer here for us smelly, stinky, sweaty, all of that. Yeah, which is it is a stinky time of year and not just because of the hot garbage on the New York City streets . It is the time of year where we start worrying about smelling and you know, do we have pit stain s and all that stuff? I'm curious, do you have a deodorant or an antipurspirant that you like? No, I don't. And I've been searching for an embarrassingly long amount of time, I think. I always think that I find the one and then it just doesn't work for me anymore. I don't know what that is. What do I do? Well, I actually just use my husband's whenever I need it. I just yoink it out of the medicine cabinet. So clearly, I'm not thinking about it too deeply, but today maybe we'll solve your proble m and maybe we'll discover a product that I'll like as well. So we're going to talk about deodorants and antiperspirants today. We're going to get into it. We're going to talk about how to pick one. We're going to talk about the recommendations we have. We have tested a ton of them. Our beauty team has tested them. There are so many options, and it's a very personal choice. I really react to scents, to fragrances, and so I'm really turned off to a lot of deodorants and antiperspirants because of that. So there's just a lot of factors that go into it. Yeah, it's really hard to pick these days, pretty much anything, but definitely deodorants and antiperspirants. So that's why we're bringing on Abby Kazalchick, a senior staff writer on the beauty team to tell us everything we'll need to know about deodorants and antiperserins, even what the difference is between the two , and how to pick the right one for you. That's right. So after the break, Abby will join us and she's going to share some pretty funny testing anecdotes too. We'll be right back Welcome back. With us now is Abby Kazalchick, a senior staff writer on the beauty team who's covered everything from eye creams to makeup for mature skin . She's written the guides to deodorant and antiperspirant, and before her time at Wirecutter, she spent years as a beauty editor and writer at Glamour, Allore, and Cosmo, among other women's magazines in addition to reporting at the Times. Abby, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here. Well, I am excited to talk about this topic today. I feel like people use the term deodorant and antiperspirant interchangeably. It's just the way we talk about these products, but there is a difference. So what is that difference? So the easiest way to get at the difference is just look at the names of the products . So a deodorant is something that by definition deodorizes or gets rid of BO . And that is all it is meant to do for a product to be considered an antiperspirant, which is to say something that is antiperspiring or anti sweat . In the U. S., legally, it is an FDA regulated over the counter drug and has to contain by definition one of several aluminum compound s and those exist in sort of maximum allowable percentages . And all of that is regulated. And all of that is specific to antiperspirants and not at all to deodorant. And it's the aluminum then that is what is stopping the sweating from happening in antiperspirant. Exactly. The aluminum through sort of a complicated process causes a plug to form in your sweat duct . And after that, at a minimum, you can expect a reduction in sweat , if not an outright stoppage of sweat for some time. So how would somebody even really know if they need a de odorant versus an antiperspirant. Why choose one over the other? Completely up to you. Some people like to have both in a whole sort of armpit wardrobe, if you will . Some people really don't like the feeling of sweating . And if that's you, you definitely want an antiperspirant, of course . Some people don't mind sweat and simply don't want to smell. And for those people deodorant alone does the trick .be M youay're some body who most of the time doesn't mind sweating , but you have a big presentation coming up or a wedding and for those exceptions you might want an antiperspirant in the mix , but for the rest of your life, you might be fine with just a deodorant. So it's really personal preference. When I was growing up, I think there was this sort of rumor about antiperspirants and aluminum and the aluminum potentially causing really scary health consequences like Alzheimer's or breast cancer. Yeah. I think this has been debunked, but let's talk about it. What is the truth here? So for decades now, scientists and organizations have been discrediting those initial studies that did point to some fear about an association with Alzheimer's and or breast cancer and aluminum . So when I was working on the antiperspirant guide, I went back to the scientists organizations who have been discrediting those claims, the Alzheimer's Association for one , American Cancer Society, I spoke to scientists there who maintained that there is no demonstrated correlation between the aluminum in your antiperspirant and a risk of either Alzheimer's or dementia or breast cancer. The one thing that did come up though with aluminum that there is, in fact, a demonstrated risk for is an allergy . So there are very few people who have an aluminum allergy, but if you do have an aluminum allergy, clearly you want to avoid antiperspirants because they can lead to at, the very least , an unpleasant rush. If you are having some kind of strange reaction after using a product, stop, stop. Absolutely. Just a good overall rule of thumb. What about the idea that you're plugging up your armpits with antiperspirant. That sounds a little bit unhealthy, is it as unhealthy as people might think? Well what dermatologists will say typically is that armpit is such a small piece of real estate in the grand scheme of your body . And so yes, you want your body to be able to sweat . If you're inhibiting a little expanse of skin, there's enough skin that can still pers ire plenty while you are stopping just the tiny bit that's in your armpit. We always like to talk on this show with our writers about how they test products. This is such a personal product . So how did you test this? What was the testing panel like because I would imagine you would want to test with a wide variety of people for deodorants and antiperspirants? Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because when we put the call out to staffers about who wanted to test for us , so many parents said you must make teens test this too . And then there was this whole sort of separate discussion about how impossibly stinky everybody's teenage kids are and any deodorant or antiperspirant that we included had to pass muster with the teens . And so we were very thorough in including a number of teenage kids, kids going through puberty, up to people in their, I think, seventies and eighties . And we tested across the country . So really we tried to go for every sweaty context , every age group, every climate imaginable . And we were testing mostly in summer, but then we also got into autumn a bit, so we were able to test even against different kinds of fabrics. You know, there's sort of that oh moment that people sometimes realize when they have like exposed skin against wool . And there can be sort of an unpleasant like, oh my god did I remember, to put my deodorant on? And we made sure to includ e enough cool weather testing that we could account for wool and armpits but also plenty of cotton and armpits or just exposed armpits and bathing suits and tank top s. So we really, really tried to cover the gamut, I would say. What were you actually testing for We were testing for everything from how the product felt going on , how long it took to dry , you know, did it leave a really unpleasant clammy feeling for too long in your armpits ? Did it stain clothing ? But really the main concern for deodorant is how long did the product keep bad smells at bay ? And in the case of antiperspirant , how long did the product keep sweat at bay? And did they have to have a buddy to smell them actually the number of times I asked friends and family to smell my armpits and it was really unbecoming . Yeah, I mean to be a tester for this story , you have to be really not at all self conscious and you have to be willing to ask people to just get up in there and sniff. Well that actually leads to my next question because I saw in your guide you mentioned that you consulted with a professional armpit sniff er? It did. What? Okay who employs them? What is their on their business card? Is that hi I wish that were on her business card . Yeah, the companies do employ these people . I had to with a retired armpit sniffer because typically these people are in house with particular brands . And so because we want our sources to be impartial and not affiliated with any brands , I had to speak with a woman who was recently retired from this line of work . But she had been in house for a very long time at Colgate Palm Olive . And she's just one of my favorite sources ever. I wish I could do an entire story about her and this line of work . But basically personal care brands will hire these people, these noses, you have to have a really refined nose . But one of the main functions these professionals serve is if you are testing a deodorant, for example , you might line up a sample of thirty or forty people to come in for a twenty four hour period , apply the deodorant in question , and then have this sniffer smell each armpit at regular intervals . So you might start at fifteen minute intervals going down the line armpit to armpit. Each person at, least in the experience of the woman I spoke to , each person whose armpit she smelled was behind a curtain, so there's a degree of anonymity and you just sort of stay you're a TV show. Right? I know. It could be its own reality show . And so you stick your arm out the curtain and the person sticks her nose into your armpit. And sort of one by one goes down the line and takes meticulous notes and she is grading for things like maldor, which is sort of the official industry term for Bohm, but also the integrity of the fragrances that are intended to mask that Beow . So if you have put a lot of resources into a beautiful floral fragrance for your deodorant, you want to know that that fragrance is not only stopping mellow or you want to know that the fragrance is sort of holding up on its own as a nice fragrance . So professional noses are hired for these kinds of things and they just ye,ah for twenty, hour fours, will smell the same set of like thirty or forty armpits and grade the performance of the product over time. New Dream Job unlocked. What a talent. What a unique talentell it . So I just came back from Japan and I noticed that all the deodorants there are tiny. They're like these little tiny cylinders and I'm like, who I mean, I guess people's armpits are this small, mine definitely aren't. But can you talk a little bit about the topography of armpits and like what you might be looking for there too? Well, it's something I hadn't considered all that carefully before working on these guides. Only at wire cutter are we sort of getting into the nitty gritty this way. And so when we're asking panelists to talk about what they enjoyed or didn't in a particular product, they might talk about how easily or not it sort of navigated the shape or the flatness or lack thereof in their own armpits. And in fact, when I was speaking to this armpit sniffer, she was confirming that there's just this incredible variety of topographies in people's armpits . And some people have, you know, really small concave pits and other people have very sort of broad and flat ones . And it doesn't even necessarily divide along the gender lines you might imagine. And so we wound up sort of adding, in addition to efficacy , when we were naming our p, weicks talked about picks that were good across broad flat surfaces and others that did well like a small roll on for somebody who has, as one of our testers did, a very small concave armpit. And so it's just that you really don't realize until you get in deep into this research how variable armpits are and then how variable tastes are according to maybe the shape and size of your armpit. What about pits that have hair? You know, lots of people don't shave under their arms . Does that impact the efficacy of antiperspirant or deodor ? It could, and it also impacts how people experience whether they're going to like a particular formulation or not, whether that formulation is going to feel goopy in armpit hair or imperceptible in armpit hair . So we really did make sure to test among with lots of armpit hair, people with completely smooth pits just to make sure that we were getting the full range of experiences . And one tip that came up when I was interviewing a dermatologist about how to make sure that you're getting the most efficacy out of your deodorant or antiperspirant is that even if you like to have hairy armpits , that you may be considered trimming them a tiny bit because even a slight reduction in surface area gives those bacteria that cause bio in the first place just a little bit less of a habitat to thrive in. We're going to take a quick break and then when we're back we're, going to get to how to pick the right deodorant for you. Be right back. Welcome back. With us now is Abby Kosolchik, senior staff writer on Wirecutter's Beauty Team. Abby, now that we understand the basics of deodorant, we've gotten really deep into professional noses and armpit topography. We've covered it all. I'm curious , it is such a personal product . Why does a specific deodorant or antiperspirant work really well for one person and it might just not work at all for someone else . So it comes down to just personal body chemistry . We all have our own it's a little bit gross , but we all host our own unique communities of bacteria and other microbiota in and on our bodies . And scientists say that these colonies of bacteria are as individual as fingerprints . And so what works to curb my bacterial colony might not work to cur b yours , vice versa . And so there is a caveat with all of our picks, and that is that even if these picks worked for the majority of people who tested for us , it's entirely possible that an individual listener's bacterial flora will be just different enough that the product doesn't work. And we apologize in advance . But there's always going to be a bit of tri al and error because of that. And even two orn pits on the same person might disagree with each other for yeah. So for example, Alex Asiman, a colleague of ours wrote an ode to a deodorant in which he noted how prolific his right armpit is and like how only one deodorant in history has been able to tame that particular armpit, which by the way, again, because everybody has different body chemistry, his favorite deodorant actually didn't do very well with panelists . And so that's actually a really good illustration of just how individualized this can become. And in fact, the armpits sniffer I spoke to noted that in her experience of sniffing many, many armpits over the course of her career, she did notice that in some cases what worked on somebody's right armpit did not work at all on that same person's left armpit. Wow. That's so wild. It is wild. And even wilder is that because of hormone fluctuations mainly, what works on you at one point in life might not work on you the very next week depending on how much your hormones are fluctuating. So perimenopause would be a really excellent example of that. Great time to reassess your product . It also kind of sounds like it will be smart for people who do go through hormonal ch anges or whatever, like maybe you have one armpit that disagrees with the other to just have like what did you call it a wardrobe ? A wardrobe a wardrobe deodorant and antiperspirant times. Yeah, so you don't maybe need you just one deodorant if you and find that your body is a little bit funny like that. Exactly. To tag on to that, if you are one of these parents that's navigating the teen situation, maybe getting a few. Have your kid try them out. So if you are kind of looking to switch or maybe you realize that you need more than the one that you have at home, what is the best way for somebody to do that? How do you just stand in an aisle at a drugstore and just pick the right one? It's really tough. I would say you have to prepare for a bit of trial and error . No matter what , if you are trying a new product , you probably, according to the Derms I spoke to for these guides, you want to give it at least a week to see if it's working or not. And in particular, if you're switching from an antiperspirant to a deodorant , you want to allow for a little bit of a clean out period between the two before you assess how new deodorant is doing for you because you could still be dealing with the residual effects of the antiperspirant that's still sort of dissipating and coming out of your docks. But even if you're switching from one deodorant to another , you still want to wait a little while to see if the new one is working a week generally because certain deodorants are particularly good at clinging to your skin through sort of standard showering. Basic, very basic question. I assume the best time to put on deodorant is after you've taken a shower, you've dried off, you put your antiperspirant or deodorant on for the day. Is that right? Is that the best time? That really depends. For heavy sweaters who are going to be using antiperspirants , some dermatologists will encourage application at bedtim e. What? At bedtime. At bedtime. Yeah, put on your night cream. People are nodding at me and like, yeah, that's what I do. Do you know that? Okay . Well, I sweat a lot of it nicely. Well, also I mean, so you're bucking the trend, Kyra, because the reason typically given behind that advice is that you are less sweaty at night unless you're going through a big hormones. Let's say okay, Abby. So am I. But sort of broadly speaking , your potty temperature comes down a bit , you're a little bit less sweaty . So your ducts are a bit more efficient at taking up the aluminum that will then form the plugs that help reduce sweat the next day. That's sort of the oversimplified version of why dermatologists might recommend that for heavy sweaters who use antiperspirant , the process is best begun at bedtime, and then you maybe reapply the next morning or you apply just a deodorant the next morning . And that is really an asodkiermatologist kind of thing . If you are using a deodorant , generally the best time to do so is after you have showered and dried your skin , but there's no harm applying on the fly if you've forgotten or you notice that you are starting to get a bit of breakthrough BO as we call it in the Biz . But at that point you're going to be relying more on the masking fragrances and you probably won't get quite the same level of efficacy as you would if you were applying too freshly showered and dried skin, but you'll get a little something So people might associate antiperspirant antiodorant with just the classic stick versions, but there are a lot of options on the market these days. I've personally seen something that horrified me, which is like a gel that you rub onto your arms. And I think that's a crime against humanity. But people need that. So that's fine. Yeah. Can you tell us more about all the different wonderful ways you can put on deodorant or deodorant? Yeah, well, I think sort of the best known quote unquote traditional ones are sticks and roll ons and gels, but the kind of gel that comes out of a tube, I think the one you're alluding to is the bomb act London, the deodorant bomb has had this viral sensation of a journey. And we call that one the deodorant that divided our newsroom. Yes. Because like you, many of our tsester do consider it the devil spawn and think there is nothing grosser than putting a dab of cream on your or bomb on your fingertips and then sort of rubbing that directly into your pits and then having to wash that hand and then use the other hand to get to the other pit . But then we had fourteen people testing that product . Half thought it was perfect or near perfect. And I was in the camp that really, really liked it. What did you like about it? I liked the efficacy. I put it through the grossest imaginable test. I decided to forego standard hygiene for a probably not recommended period of time and all of the things you have to do for these guides as well . Exactly. So I think I went at least a few days without showering and wearing questionable like I was wearing a pant suit in the middle of summer that was lined with polyester , which yeah, exactly. Like nothing to it in New York City. Yeah . Nothing, nothing to inflame beautiful like a poly ester lined pant suit . And that was for a public appearance where my adrenaline was really pumping . And I was risking it all. I was risking it all for science and work . And I stayed eerily fragrance free, let's say . For days, I just couldn't believe it. And it became almost a sport . Like, what more can I do to test this poor deodorant? And then other members of our team were similarly , you know, somebody else was having conjugal relations with no AC in the middle of summer with this deodorant on to see how that would go, it was sort of almost a competition. How gross, how gross can we get in the name of testing deodorant? And yeah, we really did put everything to the test. But ultimately, I really liked this particular balm just because it held up so improbably well. And other people really love the scents. It comes in sort of interesting sense. In fact , a number of the products that we tested and that wound up as pics came in fragrances that go well beyond lavender , mint, rosemary, you know, really, really creative sense too for people who like that kind of thing. I grew up in a real hippie dippy environment. A lot of people like to use those crystal rock edorants. Do those actually work? What did they even make it into testing? They did make it into testing. Yeah . People were super enthusiastic about testing the crystal deodorants. And then most testers went eerily silent . So I would say it was not one of the most successful products we tested. It did work for a few people , but not for enough that it became a pick. Right. So if you're using it and you like it, no shade, it might be totally great for you. Exactly. Probably not gonna work for a lot of people. So Abby, we haven't actually really gotten into any of your picks in the interperserant or the deodorant guide. So we're going to give you some scenarios where people might want to prioritize something and we want to hear your thoughts on what you would specifically recommend for somebody in these scenarios. Ready? Sounds good. Awesome. So what if somebody really struggles with pit stains on their clothes? I'm going to go with the degree ultra clear black and white. It did not , for any of our testers , leave pistains , marks , and we really tried hard to make it leave marks . I cannot say with total certainty that it would never , but as you can tell from the name, it's sort of the product stock and trade that it's meant to be ultra clear and nonstanding. All right, someone who is tired of having white streaks on their dark clothing. This is me, by the way . Exact same product. Yeah. , yeah. And then Shay Moisture, I would say, is the runner up for that one. Hair care brand. The hair care brand. They have a really nice antiperspirant deodorant. I had no idea. Yes. And it got to the point that I was even this is not how you were supposed to test for these things, but because we were going sort of all out, I was just rubbing the deodorant directly onto my clothing, bypassing my skin, which is of course not how these things work, but I just wanted to see how far we could push this . And with most fabrics, I would say , the shea moisture left almost no trace, even when I was applying it literally direct to a pair of charcoal gray sweatpants. That's gonna be my next purchase. Okay, what if somebody sweats through their shirt during presentations, meetings, or stressful situations . So Mitcham Women's Antiperspirant, that is one of our picks was one of the hardest working . It has the highest allowable percentage of the particular aluminum compound that is in that formulation and it just went on and on. Someone who doesn't really sweat much but worries about getting stinky by the end of the day. So I would say the world is your oyster here You have the most choices of anyone and here I would say have a look at some of the picks that get into really beautiful or unusual or fun fragrances . So was one of our picks in that category I would say or necess arily, also salt air because there you're really just looking at deodorants and you can have fun with just some of the fragrances that sound extra appealing or interesting to you. What if you're someone who has really sensitive skin and might get irritation from deodorants. So in that case I would recommend the dove aluminum free deodorant and that is the name of the product I should clarify because all deodorants , as we've said, are by definition, if it's just a deodorant, it is by definition aluminum free, but aluminum free has become a big marketing term . So dove aluminum free, deodorant specifically in the variety for sensitive skin. That did well for our sensitive skin testers. All right, this is for all my crystal rock people out there . If you want the most natural deodorant, well, with apologies to Kira , I'm going to go back to the act deodorant bomb . It's interesting because even though it is not an antiperspirant, it does not contain aluminum compound , it does have sweat absorbing agents, which we haven't really gotten into yet . So it creates the impression a little bit of being almost antiperspirant ish in that it's keeping you drier than a deodorant without any sweat mopping agents in it , but it contains no aluminum. People who tend to look for quote unquote natural deodorants are looking for aluminum free generally, so I would say act as a good way to go there. And those sweat mopping agents that you mentioned, those are also naturally occurring. Yes It's like dirt. Diotomaceous earth is one which clay is another arrowroot, which is a starch is another. Oh, wow. Yeah . What if you're somebody who lives somewhere hot and humid and spend a lot of time outside ? So then I would go for one of the strong antiperspirants . I would go back to that Mitchem or I would go back again to that degree ultra clear. If you want a deodorant, the doctor Squatch . It's a good one. And that also has some of those sweat mopping agents. So again, it's not officially an antiperspirant. It doesn't contain any aluminum compounds , but it can sort of give the impression of helping to mop up sweat . All right, our final one, the sweaty and or stinky teen. What are you recommending? So there's a whole other guide to puberty that wire cutter has produced, our friends and colleagues who work on health have put that guide together. And we've talked about armpit protection . We've had sort of a cross disciplinary discussion about the kinds of products that might work there . One thing that has come up is that especially for kids who are super self conscious about this initial onset of extreme stinkiness , they might want something that's l abeled a clinical strength antiperspirant . And in that case, dove clinical protection is something that they recommend in the Puberty Guide . But there's no reason that some of the antiperspirants and deodorants that we recommend in our guide as well can't work for a teen. If you're not looking for something quite as potent as the clinical strength from dove, then again, the shea moisture is really nice, especially if you are looking for something a bit gentle and moisturizing . So before we wrap, we always ask our guests one last question. What's the last thing you bought that you really loved ? Well , if you've noticed an overpowering garlic aroma coming out of my pores that no deodorant could ever mask. I haven't . It's because this morning on my way here, have you guys read our pickle guide? I have, yes. When I read the guide, I asked Maki Yazawa and the kitchen team, the author for recommendations for half sour pickles, which didn't make it into the guide, but she sent me to the pickle guys whom she interviewed and did videos with this story . And so I went and had some of the best half sour pickles of my entire life. Wow . And now there's a quart of them sitting in the fridge outside, but that quart of half sour pickles from the pickle guys is far and away the best thing I've bought in a long time. Thank you so much, Abby. Thank you, Abby. We'll have you back soon. Kyra, do you feel well educated on deodorants and antipersprins now? I feel more educated on the job that I never knew existed than I need to know more about. Yeah. I feel I'm very intrigued by the nose, by the armpit. Yeah, an armpit sniffer. All right, going back to deodorant and antiperspirants, what are you taking away this episode? I'm definitely gonna try the Shea Moisture Antiperspirant. I always have those white stains in my clothes. I'm sick of them, Christine. So I'm ready to try something new. That's a great one. Yeah. I am now going to start malodor instead of beo. I think it sounds classier And then I think when I am approached with the stinky teen phase of my family and it's coming up it's coming. I will probably be getting a variety of things to try because the same thing isn't going to work for everybody. So yes. I really like that mine. A little, you know, variety. That's right . Well, if you want to find out more about any of Wireco's coverage on deodorant or antiperspirants or if you want to check out any of the products we recommended today , go to nytimes dot com slash wirecutter or find a link in the show notes. That's it for us until next week. Thanks so much for listening. Bye, bye . The Wire Cutter show is executive produc ed by Rosie Garin and produced by Abigail Keele, engineering support for Maddie Maziello and Nick Pittman. Today's episode was mixed by Katherine Anderson. Original music by Dan Powell, Marian Lazano, Alicia Baitu, Katherine Anderson, Rowan, Nimisto, and Diane Wong. Cliff Levy is Wirecutter's deputy publisher and general manager. Ben Fruman is Wirecutter's editor in chief. I'm Carblackwell. I'm Christine Ser e Classette. Thanks for listening.