Analyzing Wembanyama's Performance and Fatigue

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There's been like ten different iterations. of the Kicks in the last twenty years, twenty five years. And Mike Breen has been around for all of it One of the great guys in the sport, one of the great storytellers in the sport. He was, of course on the East finals for SPN. he's going to be on the whole finals for ABC slash ESPN And he's going to tell he's here to tell tons of stories, reflect on the Kicks, reflect on stuff that's happened in his life, greatreat conversation. And then The next game of the year. Probably going to be tonight by the time you listen to this maybe tomorrow if you listen to it right away. Game six spurs Thunder Motequil is here to breakd down game five. What did the Thunder figure out What did the sppurs miss in terms of opportunities? What's going to happen in game six, who's going to adjust what's the counter to the counter Who's going to win? arere we going to see a game seven? Can we see a game seven? We get into all that coming up on the Zach Low Show Zach Low show is brought to you by Fanl. The conference finals are here D you know how to go down, take your shot with Fandle and get closer to the action. Fandle is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plers during the NBA post season. Build the same game parleay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip offff. Download the Fandl spportsbook app now and play your game twenty or over in Presidident of select states eighteen or over in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming gambling problem C call one eight hundred gambler. callall one eight, seven, eight nine, seven seven seven seven or visit ccPG dot org slash chat in Connecticut. T the Zach Lo show. The New York Kicks are in the finals for the first time in twenty seven years and to chronicle it all how many finals is this for you now, Mike Breen When want I think wow And the first on national TV with the New York Knicks. How are you doing, sir? Thanks for spending some time with us. First off, love the hat There you go. And that's the sign of a real fan. The hat is still on despite the difficulties that we are encountering all season long as a fellow M fan I suffer with you It's not been it's not been fun. I did show my daughter yesterday some footage of Francisco Lindor taking infield practice and she got very excited for his return. So she's her spirits are still high. mine. not I forgot what it was like to be just an angry burn it to the ground fan frustrated. And so it's fun, it's fun to feel that nastiness in my soul, Mike Breen. But you know, it's and I always say this and I told this to my kids because they since they were little, they were nick fans and they experienced a lot of rough years. And I always kept saying to them These type of rough ears, when it finally turns, that's what makes it so special. And they're experiencing that now and Even you know, a couple of years ago that run to the National Leue Championship series was so much fun for the Mets But that's you sign up with that with your heart to a franchise and to a team, and you know you're going to have heartbreak and you know you're going to have complete jubilation. Yeah, I went through the Nick sort of last twenty five years yesterday on my Nicks makeake the Finals podcast. There were nine straight sub five hundred seasons I think, from two thousand two to twenty ten Then the six years like post mellow peak and pre tIs were Just so utterly depressing and forgettable. It was like the Kicks existed over here and the rest of the NBA was operating as normal over here and then Brunson comes and Tibbs comes and Randall is here and the trades happen and it's just this continuous functional improvement to this moment and you're there in Cleveland the other night when they complete the sleep sweep completely obliterate the cabs just like they obliterated the sixixers and obliterated the Hawks in the last three games of that series And you give this emotional interview with Monica McNutt, who is there covering the game U for MSG and just sort of it what it means to Nicks fans after all the suffering to finally be back at the pinnacle. And I just I saw the interview was very emotional. but I wonder like What are your other memories from that game? I don't know if there's a conversation with Clyde Fraasier from after the game, off camera that you'll take with you. I don't know if you even went into the Nick's locker room to sort of see what the mood was in there after the game. if you talk to Brunson, anything like that. Well, first off, I did speak to Clyde after. I spoke to some of the other players who were there, the former players who were there and The joy that they're having watching this team play the way they're playing, notot just the success, but It's how they play the game U that really struck me Clyde was really emotional after the game. and he's he's one that that rarely compares any team to his squad And he feels there's so many similarities And I said this to Monica that night. I've never heard him compompare a player to Willis Reed He holds Willison that high regard, the way he revered that man And he thinks Jamen Brunson has a lot of similarities in terms of leadership and his approach as Willis Reed. So that really has struck me. And then afterward in talking to some of the current players It's amazing how yeah, they're happy. They're not there's there's no way that they're satisfied. I mean, they they really have that mode of, okay, ye Yeah, let's we'll celebrate. We've pat each other on the back tonight. Let's get to work and get ready for the next one Yeah, I think it was, you know, it was almost antic climactic because of just how lopsided every series has been since game three of the Hawk series and how how lopsided game four of the Cleveland series was that the cavs just let go of the rope and the Kicks were very happy to pull pull them over the cliff or whatever in my head psycho analyzing everything. I'm like, I kind of think it's cool that it's antic climactic and that there is going to be this long break between the Kicks winning the East and the finals while these other two teams slug it out because mentally to me just as a neutral person, I'm like it kind of reinforces to the Kicks and their players that Yeah. Okaykay. they did this thing. ended up being like not that big of a deal. the actual big deal is the next thing that's coming. And I do wonder if there's like a mind trick that can happen when you don't get too carried away with winning twelve playoff games. And remember actually it's very clear the goal is sixteen nowough Right, It's just business. L let's get this one out of the way and then we can start thinking about the next. It's just It's amazing all three of those games U I think three different players. I think it's Josh Hark, Michel Bridges and I know it's Jayalen Brunson in the three clinching games did not play a second in the fourth quarter, not a second. And when you think about that, going into the playoffs, if you would have told somebody that There's just there's just no way. And it's it's again, it's the way they take care of business. They're so serious, they're so focused. And the other three things on all three games in Atlanta, in Philadelphia and in Cleveland The amount of Nick fans, thousands Thousands of Nick fans or in that arena So in some ways, it felt like they they were clinching at home. It's just It's an incredible run. and remember going into the playoffs, some people thought Atlanta would beat them, some people thought Philadelphia would beat them, someome people thought with Cleveland. And that's fine. Everybody m makes predictions but to not just win those series, but to dominate the way they've dominated. It's historic. It's absolutely historic what they're doing. Yeah, the fans traveling thing is cool. and Nicks fans are obviously like I've said on this podcast all through his playoff run like this is a This is a super smart basketball city. It is a basketball city. Basketball is a city game Nicks fans are very smart There's also just like a ton of them because New York is a giant place. And so obviously that means more of them will be sprinkled around as expats in other cities. And I have friends who, I mean friends who have gone to some Nicks playoff games who as the playoffs have gone on like random just buddies who are Nicks fans who have said to me like It's actually going to be cheaper for us to go to Cleveland or go to San Antonio or go to Oklahoma City and buy a plane ticket and a hotel room that is actually go to a Nicks game. So I think I wonder how much of that is actually playing into Nicks fans showing up on the road. No, No doubt, But you know what Zach? I can't tell you how many people have told me Um, you know, the the nineteen seventy and the seventy three next That's why I fell in love with basketball. That's why I became a basketball fan and a nick fan for life This is happening again There are so many young kids who now watching this who are falling in love with the game, who are falling in love with the team. because of the way this team is playing. G back to the hotel after the game the other night And it sa three different families Father and three kids, father, wife, two kids that all drove from the Y seeven hours, however long it takes some from New Jersey. and they were, you could see by the kids that they will be nick fans for the rest of their life They will be NBA fans for the rest of their life. And so much of it is because of Jalen Brunson and the way he plays and the way he carries himself. But it's the whole knick team and it's the style that they play. It's just such a beautiful style of basketball They have they have made so many, so many people to be Nick fans and basketball fans for the rest of their lives So I'm going to do the dumb thing where I project my own personal experience ono the larger world, but I live in Fairfield County, Connecticut and at my daughter is about to leave elementary school. She's gone six years at the same school. So I've been walking her to school for six years And I've obviously like when I see basketball jerseys on kids You know, my brain just sort of registerered like, it's a bam out of biojersey. I wonder why that guy has a bam out of biojersey. And when she first started going to the school Number one by far was cururry Number two was LeBron Number three was has probably been Lameello Ball over the course of her six years at school And now it's like it's Brunson and it's not even close. Like and on these on these playoff game days It's mostly boys unfortunately, but like half the boys will come out wearing knick jerseys and seventy five percent of those will be Brunson jerseys. But what's also started to happen is or t shirts. you see now Josh Hart jerseys and OGN and Obe jerseys and like jerseys of guys that like those are not those are They better than role players, but they're not the kind of guys you think like a nine year old kid is going to have an OGN an O jersey and those are starting to get sprinkled around the playground. likeike you're absolutely right that this team is going to breed a generation of hopefully locally These kids are now going to be Ns fans and not like kids process the game today where they're like fans of an individual player more than a team. I think I think you're right that there's just going to be like an old school team fandom going on Yeah. and that's a great point about the team aspect of it because, you know, Steph Cari was Youd go in every arena in the country and if the warriors are on the road or obviously if they're home, there's nothing but curriry jerseys throughout And it's it's you get them ussually like seven or eight years old when you can really make an impression on a young boy or a young girl in terms of where their allegiance is going to go for the rest of their lives. You know, all all the kids that were born in in like nineteen eighty eight when the Bulls were winning all the championships, they're all Jordan. They're all Jordan fans because that's when he was at his height But it was mostly Jordan, but this this Snick team does have they have the other personalities. And I give a lot of the credit to Brunson because Brunson, as you know When he getives an interview When you ask him about himself, he gives the most bland cliche answers When you ask him about the success of the team, he'll even give you a bland cliche answer because he never wants to get ahead of himself But ask him about one of his teammates and he gives you great insight and gives you great comments about him. And I think that's a big part of it is that he has shared everything in terms of the success of the team by always talking about his teammates and Most of the finals that you have done free SPN ABC We're with Jeff Van Gundi and Mark Jackson as your broadcast partners, bothoth of whom have deep, deep ties to the N I wonder have you been hearing regularly from them during this playoff run and particularly once the I mean, Jeff Vang Gundi was the coach the last time they were in the finals. Have you been talking to those guys Yeah actually I actually sent Jeff a text today. I saw a video of The time during the ninety nine run when they went to the finals. was the first time Madison Square Garden chanted Jeff Van Gundi. and it was everybody, it echoed through who It's one of the coolest moments I can remember He's another one, always deflected praise, always. And there's a look on his face. They show the camera on him. and you could tell it, it meant something to him. Now he talked afterward and of course, what he said, that meant so much to my family. But you could tell it meant something to him. So he still his heart is still in a lot of ways there. and I se he thinks they have a legitimate shot to win in the finals coming up There's no question they have a legitimate shot to end to me, that question was answered byy the end of the second round, they went from long shot punchers chance to even against a healthy Thunder team, a decent chance and now The Thunder aren't healthy. The spurs are I have some guards playing through injuries. I we'll see who comes out of that series, but I think there's no question that Nicks can win the NBA title. and I'm very I'm going to be very interested to see who's actually favored when it happens. But speaking of Van Gundi and Mark Are there any the Nicks the Nicks have alums, so many alums at every game. I mean, st Stehan Marbury almost played in one of the games by accident when he ran off the floor, ran out to the floor Is there an alumni that you haven't seen or hasn't been in the fold that you're kind of hoping for like it would be very cool if this person suddenly appeared at the NBA finals as like part of the Nicks alumni group Well, you would love to see Charles Oakley make a return. That's been such an ongoing and just such an unfortunate situation that happened. So he's one that you think of because he was such a big part of those those ninety Nicks U But it's amazing every year and they've they've done an amazing job U bringing them back and making them feel welcome. There's not just like five or six. There's like twenty per game now And if you watch them on the sidelines, they're so into the game Patrick Ewing was so overjoyed the other night and obviously the Clyde Frasier' Bill Bradley's there all the time It's just cool to see. Bernard King Larry Johnson. They were at Radio City Music haall and I think Latre that was very that was very cool. They were radi And there was one shot we put on our telecast. Nicks went on one of those runs and they go up like twenty six and they had a shot of of Bernard King and you see Bernard King saying It's over and it's a second gave the he gave the Vince Carter. right. Exactly. So U's it's a great thing to see. And I give credit to Lyon Rose and the organization William Wesley. what they've done is They've made those guys feel so welcome coming back And that's a great thing for an organization U teeams are trying to do it. San Antonio is great like that. The sppurs do that as well U But the amount, it's not just some players, it's a whole load of players that come back Here here are some players that I would like to see some alumni I would like to see comeback both both superlative guys and just random like oh, I remember this guy was on the Nicks. It would be funny to see him at a game. I want a Phil Jackson appearance at one of these games. Obviously he was the GM or president during a T tumultuous period, but also a member of the nineteen seventy three championship team. Um Reiley Could we get a Pat Rileilly like, you know, like Olive branch thrown out? I mean, why not? right Um Joe Kim Noah, Olive branch. He's a New Yorker. He brief and not not did not go great here. He was to a couple of games this year Okay. Yeah, he did come to a couple of games and and Phill Jackson and Pat Rileilly, you know They both were such an integral part some of the finest moments ever And yes, it didn't end well for Pil when he left as an executive, obviously when when Pat left as well, it didn't end well Most Nick fans in those cases, they only remember the good points. And And I think what Riley did was extraordinary in the nineties and Phil Jackson being a part of the only two championships So I would love to see them come back as well. I want to see Van Gundy too. I I know you know Jeff better than I do. He'll I don't want to be a distraction. I don't want to, you know, I mean like he was the coach during the last finals. He was the guy the year before who grabbed Alonzo morning's leg and and just I want to see him back in the garden for this. You know, and he was so beloved because he was the underdog The guy that okay, Don Nelson's fired. We'll stick the assistant Jeff Ang Gundi in and Jeff would be the first one to tell you. he He would have not returned if Alan Eouston doesn't hit that shot in game five in Miami and instead winds up being one of the great coaches in Nick history and I think one of the great coaches now. I know he's up for a couple of jobs Portland and Orlando would be out of their minds not to hire him because You hired Jeff Aang Gundy don't know what your teams ceiling is. You will reach it if he's your head coach And I think it it's a disgrace that he hasn't been a head coach over the past couple of years because he has so much to offer And it'd be I think it'd be a wonderful thing Now Tibbs is too recent and there's too much, too many hard feelings there, I think, but You know, The other I always like when teams that get to the next level celebrate the guys who brought them up to the first level that they had to get to Wouldn't it be cool if Julus Randall and Dante Div Vincenzo the casta awayay Nova Nick showed up at the finals. I think that would be cool too. Why not it It's New York. Everybody comes through New York. And if you if you put them on the big screen, they'd get a huge ovation Um and Tim and Julius should handle this, you know, Liam Rosey takes over. a franchise that was in disarray that was basically relevant outside of New York to the rest of the NBA irrelevant, that is And Chips and Julius Randall, they started the turnaround Tibbs of what he brought the culture, that what he brought. And Julius was the star player that first year. And I think most Nick fans remember that and those guys should deserve, they should get praise if they return. I don't think they're going to be. hopefully Venzo's surgery is going well. You know, you mentioned about Jeff too Like when Jeff was an assistant coach all those years, that's when I first started working as a Nick broadcaster. And I was trying to learn the NBA. I learned more from that man about the NBA because assistant coaches have more time to help of the broadcasters. and he just He was so giving in terms of the information and teaching me about NBA basketball And then when he became head coach He didn't change. he never changed And his post game press conferences on the MSG network, they were like must see TV because you could never, you never know what was going come out of his mouth. whether it was a win or whether it was a loss, it was it was compelling. And I also remember too, he would before the games, I'd like to pop into his office just to get a couple of thoughts on the game. And he always had a ball and he was bouncing a ball off the wall and just willing to share everything that you knew about the game. just a great basketball in mind. Yeah, you know, people talk about all these guys are always thinking X's and O's and always thinking basketball. and sometimes it's an exaggeration and which I thinkly it's not. and I'm sure you've read Chris Harring's book about the nineteen nineties Nexig year he quoted in it many times There's a side off top my I may be mist telllling this a little bit, but I don't think I am There's a story of Vang Gundi driving home from a game and being so immersed in whatever happened in the game or whatever adjustments he had to make going forward, that he literally just drove into his own garage door because he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. Is there a u Is there a modern day like current New York celebrity row guy or woman that you have gotten to know on a more than token basis. Are you like are you secretly friends with Timothy Chalamay now? A you are you a stilliller guy? Tracy Morgan, Suzie Esman? Who is your best celebrity fan friend? Tracy sits right next to our table. so he's been he's been such a joy. Timothy Chalamet has been going going for years and I had to get him to stop calling you, Mr. Breen Be he's such a polite young man U Ben Stiller is he is as crazed a nick fan as anybody who sits up in the four hundred section And those are the fans I love. Steve Schriippa is another one. Steve Schriippa is just He's just so into it. Michael J. Fox, who is is one of my heroes. because of what he's done for Parkinson's. Also just like such a real caring fan. like they really care. They live and die with the Nicks. So there's a lot of them as well. There's another one Richard Schiff is a big Nick fan and become friendly with Richard. as well the he's a terrific actor. He was West He's West wing the bearded Yeah that guy right now. Yeah. He played Toby in the West wing, but there's I mean there's so many of them there that they're not just showing up to be seen. They're showing up And they from start to finish Don't stop yelling. It's really cool to see Was there any part of you as the Ns went on to a sweep of blowouts that was a little jealous that you weren't calling the Western Conference finals. And do you do things like imagine the volume and whether it would be a single or double bang when you see a shot like Victor Webinyama shot in game one of that series. Well to answer the first question, No, because The Snick team is so enjoyable to watch that I was I was glad it worked out But this year we got the easastern Conference finals because last year we didn't and I'm going to tell you a story from last year So the Kicks makeake the Eastern Cerence finals first time in twenty five years And we don't have the east, which was disappointing. We had the West last year. would have been nice So Kevin of Arlland calls me up after the next clinch to go in the conference finals and he says, listen You deserve callall the conference finals. It's the first time in twenty five years. you deserve it This is what I want to do You call the ESPN. I've already TNT people. They would love to have you call. Let's switch We'll do, I'll do the ESPN Western confference finals. You do the East, so you can do the next. You deserve to do the next And he says, I know TNT would want to have you and a VSTN doesn't want to have me and they want to put in Dave Pash or Mark Jones, I'm fine with that Now you tell me anybody else who would make that offer. So I said to him, Oh, I don't know if we can do that, Kevin. No, we can, we can. He says, think about it, Sleep on it. Next day he calls back again. Let's do this. You deserve to do this. You should be doing the Ns in the conference final And ultimately determined it wasn't really fair to each of our employeers not to do it. To this day, I'm so overwhelmed by Kevin making that offer And it wasn't just some gratuitous offer. He really wanted to do it. He was pushing me to do it and that's something I'll never forget. and Fortunately this year it worked out with her back in the conference finals, so I get to call games for them in the conference finals and now obviously the finals. So you're in Oklahoma City, I guess when Halliburton hits the shot that goes to the ceiling and drops through the net and his first thought of oh my god. it's a three of the games over then it's a two Who are you watching that game with? What are your memories of that game watching it in my hotel room in trying to think of which which city I was in. I think it was Minnesota Stbe it was. maybe it was Minnesota. I had Westter confference final somewhere Um, But I was by myself in the hotel. Usually I like to do I take notes while I'm watching the game And you know, it's the roller coaster ride. shking. Here's one of the things I thought And I would have done this. The shot I would have on the air, been going wild, what a shot And how many Nick fans would have been so mad would have been so mad at me for screaming, how oft does that he done the clutch? because he was on that incredible clutch roll throughout that entire post season. So that's one of the things I thought about that Nick fans may have never forgiven me if I would have been screaming for for Hallibur on that one. So you didn't you didn't throw the remote control at the wall or anything like like I did when I was a kid when John Franco would blow saves and my parents would be like, you can't keep chipping the wall at our house with the remote control just because John Franco drives you crazy Um So speaking of that topic now that the Nicks are in the finals, you're going to call the finals There's this all this you've already answered questions about this in interviews in the last forty eight hours, but o, Mike Green He's rooting for the Kicks. How is he going to bean on bias? And I'm like, what he's called Nicks playoff games before and actually went back and watched call I watched a whole ten minute YouTube of some of your most famous calls and one of the calls on there is Andrew Nemhard's go ahead three in game three of the second round two years ago. And you're going insane for that call with a legitimate joy in your voice. that would people people who didn't know would be like Is he just rooting for the pacers or is he just an unbiased fan who loves basketball, Marv Albert called the finals the last time the Kicks were in the finals and he had been the voice of the Kicks. for a long time. So it's not like this is new. Do do you even think about this when you're calling the game? Is it even in your head or is it just a totally separate like Mike Breen is over here somewhere else? No, ye you you you make sure you want to focus on being u straight down the middle on it. And because I watched Mar growing up and worked for NBC during those nineties and he called so many big nick games on the playoffs againgst Chicago against Indiana Um, you know, he showed me and he showed a lot of people how to do it And You know, I learned from Marv in terms of that. and I did some of those. I remember calling a Reggie three pointer to win a playoff game at the garden and screaming my full head off. That's the job And you have to do it that way. And the other thing too is I love basketball so much I've been in love with basketball since I was seven or eight years old So when I see a great play, I get excited, whether it's a nick, whether it's a celpic, whether it's a warrior. It doesn't matter And I know that you can't win on that. People are always going to think that. But they think that sack every year when the Kicks aren't in the finals. you know, when it's the Warriors in the Celphiics The Celphic fans think I'm root for the warriors, the warriors fans Iin I' root for the Celtics. I mean I'd go crazy for Steph Cardy because I I'm watching greatness. and when he does something spectacular, that's the way you have to respond. So U I hope people don't think so, but they will and that's okay becausecause one of the great things about the playoffs is how much the fans care. We talked about the Nick fans. That's fans all across the country. They care so much about the team. that they lose objectivity. If you say anything negative about their player or say anything positive about the opponent, they think you're rooting for the other team. So it's part of the business. I love that but the fans are that passionate and I' Keep doing the way I've been doing it in the past and hopefully people will be able to say, yeah, he's been fair and unbiant. This episode is brought to by the active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in Earn unlimited two percent cash rewards on purchases with it big or small So whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee that earns unlimited two percent cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo two percent or Learn more at Wellsfargo d. com forward slash active cash terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Nas Energy. Introducing new NAS energy Grand Prix Guava For those that want to be fueled up and fired up with a one hundred bound hour tropical tasting power Iignnite your taste, start your ine ra flavoreor to high gear with new NS Energy Grand Prix Guava Hit the street, grab a can and get after it So you were doing radio for a lot of the nineties when the Kicks were really good, including in the finals. You've talked about calling the OJ game during the finals. So does that mean there are like radio Mike Breen calls of John Stark's Dunk in nineteen ninety three of John Starks like maybe somewhat blocked three at the end of game six that could have won the Championship of the N are You're at those games calling them on radio, right? Yeah Did the Stark stunk? Did the Charles Smith missed missed. I wasn't going to bring that I wasn't going to bring that one up. but my the the The best thing that most proud of in radio in terms of what I did There's I don't know how much time it was left. It wasn't the eight point nine seconds, but it was under a minute to go And the Nick fans fans are starting to leave the garden. And I remember saying on the air Where are they going? Don't they know Reggie Miller's in the building And then he has that you know, they The unbelievable finish, the crushing loss to the pacers. day. And I was always so proud of that that I forecasted that. Unfortunately I lost I saved a lot of those playoff takes but I lost them all in the fire so they are Oh my God. So wish I wish I had some of them to go back to. But those were great days I worked with With Clyde and I work with John Andres too, the late John Andreres, who was a magnificent analyst and a wonderful man. U, So I have I have Kate great, Kate merment Can you conjure the Starks Dunk, which is game two of the nineteen ninety three cn confonference fininals, Nicks go up to. his Dunk, I think puts the Nicks up by five maybe late in that game and kind of clinches it. It's the lefty basase Iiconic Nick. Can you conjure the image? Can you remember what you said? U I don't remember specifically what I said, but I remember losing it and almost thinking, okay, did I did I go over the top on the call I was just screaming becausecause it was so explosive. It just came out of nowhere. You knew he was driving to the basket. you knew he was athletic But to do that in that game You know everybody in the building and myself included felt this is the year. This is the year that that they're going to they're going to win it all again. And then obviously it turned In ' ninety nine you were doing some TV, some WNBA TV. like where are you for the Larry Johnson four point play against Indiana in the confference finals? Are you calling that for radio, TV? What do whereere are you for that show? That was the year But Marv came back, right And his first year back He did the radio and I was still the TV voice And because it was now in the conference finals Regionals didn't do it then. We did the first two rounds, I think then, but not the compnce. So I had a baseline seat along Press Row and I was right under the basket when he hit that shot. Under the basket that it went in or the other end of the under the basket Yeah. I got to go I got to go back and see if I can find you. I rewatched it a few times and I couldn't find you, but I wasn't looking there Yeah, no, that's where it was and Everybody says and they might be correct that as loud as the building can ever can ever be, that amazing shot that NBC had in that that showose the crowd around. I think that builds into that because there's been a lot of build moments where you just you can't hear yourself U, But that was special. The thing I always remember about that was Chris Childs running over to Johnson right away to remind him, you still got a free throw to shoot here, Pal. That That was a cool moment Hi ninety four finals Rckets Nicks You're calling those games I don't want you to tell the OJ story again because you've told it a million times of the fans behind you yelling at you not to switch off the monitor that was showing the Bronco Um Can you Can you Picture your angle. when Starchs gets that shot off at the end of game six that Ea Jan gets a fingertip on and ewing has always said I was rolling, I was rolling right. rightight near the fouline. I was open John could have passed me to the ball. I had a gimme to tie the game. Starks has always said there was so few there was like two seconds left. I didn't know if it was going to be enough time to pass the to. C can you in your mind's eye can you see that? do you remember your call of that moment? because when that shock I remember I was sixteen years old Yeah, sixteen years old And I remember when he rose up for that shot There was a moment where like people didn't shoot obviously nearly as many threes then as they do now And so there was a moment where my my brain had to register they're going for the win. This could win the actual NBA Championship. You just didn't expect them to shoot a three That could have been a career ending call for me So we're on the radio and we're on courtide right next to the Nick bench The shot was down the other end on the near side So when I can't see down the left corner because you know, people are standing and it's all the way down. So when he takes the shot t know if he's behind the three point line or not So when the shot goes up, I don't know if it's a two pointer. or a three pointer. Now usually un stopuffed like that, play by play voices will tell you If you can't see if the He's behind the line You look at the reps cheheck out the reps and they have that hand signal that it's a three point attempt But all three of the reps were blocked. I couldn't see them if they had the hand up So the shot is up And if it goes in It's either a tie game over time or the Kicks win the championship. So if it's a three point where it goes in I'm not going to I don't know if it's to win the championship And who knows how my call would have been if it went in and Elijed on because it got a piece of it, which you couldn't tell again from more location So I could have blown the biggest radio call in Nick's history if that shot goes into the championship, I probably would have looked up at the scoreboard and yelled it's good six or seven times until they put up the score whether they won or not But I've always told that that I could have blown the biggest call of my career because I couldn't tell if he was behind the three point line or not. These are human moments, right? Like I had Harlan on last week and he was talking about the Hallibururn shot and everyone thought almost everyone thought it was the three right away. And he didn't say he just there was just noise and he kind of waited until they knew it might not be a three. You in this same basically the same game a year later. have the Sam Merrill shot, which I've called the unbang and you and I were texting about this the next day And I told you just unpompted and I didn't even realize you were going on Lebatar later in the day to talk about it I said I don't think that's a mistake. And I know a lot of people in your position are perfectionists. They want to get everything right. That sounded so organic and the bang No that it was I thought it was like the perfect human organic call of the game. It was a very smooth transition from a proto bang a no And I and I and you seem to like appreciate me reaching out. I'm like, I hope he's not beating himself up over that because I thought it was like Absolute. It was exactly what I wanted the announcer in the moment to be saying and reacting to a shot that was halfway literally halfway down and out. But so I hope you have no regrets over the unbang No, I mean, clearly you want to have it a clean call, but the game is not played perfect and I certainly never broadcast it perfectly. And that's the way it was. I mean We had a great angle on it it looked like and when they the zoom in that half the ball was under the top of the cylinder. Its just It's it was crazy. And I mean, that stuff happens and you have to react quickly to it. So And it's like the shambot three pointer that was in the game one situation, the other one Um the one it hits bounces up The thing I remember is that, I can hear the crowd go, And then it goes through and it explodes. So those things happen. And you know, after doing all these years, there's plenty of calls that you know you want to nail cleanly and that don't happen, but you have to admit the mistake and say what happens next, It's all part of the business. But I really I really appreciated that text Little did we know that Laner Shamott was just not going to miss any more shots for the rest for the rest of ser of playout. Let's talk quickly about some of your other fun calls because I haven't had you on in quite a while. Weve We've talked about the double bang, the first double bang, the curry shot from a million feet away in Oklahoma City. So I rewatch that today and you said you wanted you want every call to be as clean as possible and that's become one of your most famous calls But it's watching it again today Um, you you start talking, you say They have a time out. they're not going to use it And then you start speeding up because you realize he's actually going to shoot. So the k you're like they have a time out. they're not going to use a curry from way out downown. Like you had to catch up to get to the bang on time. Do you remember in your heads like thinking I'm talking about a time out and he's actually in the shooting motion and it comes off perfectly, but you had to actually accelerate and catch up to Steph Curry's range. Yeah It was a rushed call. There's no question because when he crossed He had enough I thought he had enough time to take a couple of more dribbles. so I did not expect it. But then, you know, you watch them enough, you can see where, okay, he's got the galleries ready to go So I had to go on it. and that was one of those where I call it it's a cumulative call. because it was all that led up to that moment The season that the warriors were having The season that he was having, he was playing on a level that very few have ever played And then that particular game where it looks like this great run is going to at least be temporarily stopped He gets hurt has to leave the game. They're down fourteen It all led up to wow, this this magic is still happening with this player and with this team And that's when I lost my mind. I never said, o, I'm gonna do bang I say bang twice. the double bang. and it just came out. the first time I heard it bang, I really thought, oh my goodness that's I sound like such a screaming fool there. But that was the basketball fan coming out of me. And that's what I've always tried to do in calls Like I said earlier, I love the game so much when I see something special That's me reacting as a fan, trying to do it in a professional way But sometimes the fan part seeps in, and I think that's a good thing. I do too. and one one of the other the this is going to be a deep cut for Nick fans, but I have to ask you about this You're so professional and you're so nice all the time that I actually love when something about a game or a player annoys you enough that you begin to editorialize a little bit in a negative way, not negative, but you just, you know, you the critical basketball fan in you comes out because something is happening that is just not the way you think basketball should be played or mistakes are being made or whatever. And so this is my long winded way of asking you Have you spoken to Jordan Clarkson about the Jordan Clarkson game since it was acquired by the Kicks? And for people who don't know he was I think it was last season. He was on Utah And he had a game in MSG where he just came into that game It was like, I'm just chucking it up. likeike I'm not going to pass. I'm just going to take one horrible shot. I'm going to have a Jordan Clarkson game And it was one of the only times I could remember you, your version of disgust was like by the fifth one you're like, well, Jordan Clarkson, he's not passing. Well, Jordan Clarkon he's taking some he's taking some tough peies tonight. H if you talked to him about this because I knowing him a little bit. He's come on my podcast before. I think you would actually think he is funny He was he brought it up During the season, when the next rout on the West cooast, a bunch of us all went to Napa Valley and on on the ride, he he brought it up like manan, he goes, what were you what were you doing that night? So I told him the whole thing and he he laughed the whole thing about it. I didn't know him very well prior to. obbviously respected his his scoring prowess and stuff. But that was one game that as you said, they were out of it. just he just wanted to come throw up every time. And weared we shared a good laugh about it. But he was the one that brought it up. I was gonna to bring it up to him, but he brought it up person and he could have been nicer about it. It's interesting you bring that up. one of the great lessons I heard was from Snapper Jones. Snapper Jones was one of the the best people I've ever met And he used to give me help when I first started NBC. I do some games with Snapper. I did a lot of games with Snapper and Bill But one And there was one game where JR. Smith was playing for the N And he was really struggling and it looked like he didn't care. was taking bad shots And I was critical like that, like that night with with Jordan Clarkson And the next day and snap or call me. And he says, Hey, listen, I listen to you last night He said everythingvery you said about J.R. Smith last night You were right on the money like, okay, great. he goes But it sounded personal He says, donon't ever let it sound personal It was a great, great piece of advice that he gave me. He used to do stuff like that. He'd always give you things to think about. and it was You know, it's amazing what you can learn from somebody who's watching at home And Snapper was great like that. Another story if you have time. I don off course. U So one time, this is during the dark years And I'm walking out after the garden, they got hammered again And there's a gentleman. I'm going to say he's about thirty five Dressed in a suit probably came from Wall Street by the looks of it And he comes up, he says, Hey, ye. Mike, can I ask you a question ass sure. He goes, Why do you hate the Ks And I said to him, hate the Kicks I said, what are you talking about? He says, Listen, I listen, I come to some games, but I listen all the time and you're just killing them I said, well They're like seventeen and fifty. Do you want me to Do you want me to say they're playing well And he was, o, no, I don't mean that You don't have to hit me over the head with it, every possession D I'm still watching. I know they're bad But I want to watch the rookie and herear. All right, does this rookie have any chance to be any good or Or is this guy, could he be at peace when we eventually get to be good And it was a great lesson from just some guy who's a huge fan There was a listener that, okay I'm broadcasting games of a bad team to an audience who's still watching And they're watching for a reason again because they care so much about the team show me, okay, yeah, you have to be critical. And you have to say when they're playing bad but you also have to think about who the audience that's watching the game. So's again, it's amazing how people who are watching can give you a good thought that tell you that, all right, maybe you're doing something right, Maybe you're doing something not so right Well, Mike, that's very relevant for me today watching the New York Mets with my daughter because I am of two minds. I want the SNY broadcasters, Gary Keith and Ron, who are fantastic should not Sugarcoat what a disaster this season is and how bad the offense that never scores any runs are is and they don't sugarcoat it. They've been they've been like pretty open about this is a crushing disappointment, yet another like you can't win when you score no runs. That's a scientific fact about baseball. If you score zero runs, you're going to lose the baseball game but also I do want as a fan like Tell me a little bit about AJ Ewing and oh, look, look, he's taking a really high percentage of pitches out of the strikes zone that's great. And I want to be I want to be excited about Carson Bench and Joonna Ton comes out the bullpen. So there is a balance that you can do both. You can acknowledge. It doesn't have to be propaganda. You can acknowledge that the team is having a horrible disappointing season and also just, you know, feed me some tidbits of like, here's a nice story that might be important next year when the team hopefully isn't terrible Yeah, no, it's again, for when you're calling a game on television, you always have to think about who's watching, Wh's my audience? What's their goal? Wh are they watching? Those two pieces of advice serve me well Last question and I'll let you go. You have some time now to think about this finals and the game first two games will be either in Oklahoma City or San Antonio U Are you approaching it any differently than any other NBA finals? And have you let yourself imagine what the garden is going to be like what it would be like if they actually win No, approach it the same way and' trying to find some stuff and both teams and You know, depending who the opponent is, is there any historical significance in terms of personnel, teams, all that kind of stuff that that might have a cooled narrative in this particular series U in terms of the Imagine what the garden would be like I think I have a pretty good feel of what it' be like, but I think this one's going to hit differently because You know, so much now is is is different Because of social media Fans are a lot more aware of so many different things that go on. so the passion might even be at a higher level. and in terms of if they ever won a championship, the city would just explode. Its it's such a a wonderful fan base couple of reasons. and one, it is a basketball town. They've always loveved basketball as much as any sport And number two, because of what the Nick fans have gone through would be to live through all the dark years and still stay loyal and still care when they're you been out of playoff contention for three months and they're still with two minutes to go in an April game and a two point game. there you make it feel like it's game seven in the finals. So U That's what I think about how deserving and through this whole runs act How deserving the fan base is to have have a moments like this. So it'd be incredible But it's going to be very difficult because both these teams present so many problems It's going to be an awesome series. and Mike Green will be there to chronicle it all with Richard Jefferson and Tim Weegler, my old friends and colleagues. Mike. it's wonderful to see you. Thanks for your time. I will see you at the finals somewhere either in New York or Okloma City or San Antonio I look forward to saying hi, mayaybe the Mets will win a game between now and then Mike Bre the Hall of Famer of the leegend. Thankk you, sir. Zach, I'm a big fan. always fun to talk to you Somewhere out there iss a Chevy truck the person who dries it That's a Chevy P person You' probably no one, your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up, They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something, and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet. Together let's drive. Visit Chevy. com slash trucks to explore the lineup Let's talk about Pe Roni's disease, or PD is not widely talked about, and some men may feel reluctant to bring it up But it's more common than you'd think PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis, causing a curve or a bump during an erection that for some men, may lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment Visit talkaboutpD. com All right, enough Nicks hype We have a game tonight slash tomorrow, depending on when you listen to this The game of the year and every game in this series will be the game of the year until it's over either tonight or in game seven Thunder spurs coming off a game five Thunder win when their offense got off a little bit for the whole game. Sheay got off in the second half after a shaky first half. And yet M toill despite Victor Weminama having really highly scrutinized for a fifteen game that I didn't think was quite didn't feel quite as bad as it's being scrutinized at. but was not great. was not as aggressive as he needed to be in the first half was right there for the spurs att the beginning of the fourth quarter in the minutes that they have to win when Victorors on the floor and Says off the floor and boy did they have chances. Julian Champannei missed a wide open three. There was the fast break where Victor wasn't ready for the hit ahead pass Victor missed a wide open three they had Vll missile lay upp that would have cut it to eight and then McCain came down at the other end and made it madeade a three that made it thirteen and something shired down Darryl My's spine somewhere. It was right there and then it wasn't right there. And I'm just going to say I'm speaking this into the world now M We haven't had a classic since game one. Like the games have been kind of competitive and close ish, but usually one team's been holding the other at arm's length. That was the Thunder in game five. I want a classic in game six, young precocious who needs experience spurs fighting for their playoff lives at home against a banged up Thunder team. Can we speak a classic into existence in game six I think it's our responsibility to do that. But I think we're due for one as well, right? Like I think it's coming in the ether a little bit of everything that we're getting. we're heading towards the classic moment because The sppurs back as are up against the wall now like they have nothing they have to throw everything on the court and go all out. to make sure they force a game seven So Hopefully we get we get lucky Zach and hopefully we on this podcast speak it into existence and then we could, you know, state claim that we did this. You know why? Another reason I'd like to have a classic close game down to the wire is so Mason Plumley and Bizbac Biabo can't come in the game and start deccking people just left and right after Weemby whispers in there I don' know what Weby said. I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying anything, but like they came in. they had a mission They executed their mission Their mission was Jared McCain and he was on the ground a lot. I don't want to see anymore of that. Let's have a close game. Victor, four of fifteen I did get twelve free throws. Oh five on threes Um And then duck the media after the game was issued a warning because I guess I guess he's not allowed to be fined for for anything, even elbowing Nz read face and almost decapitating him fine. whatever. just call it what it is What did you think of his performance in Game five and what needs to change for the Spurs to keep their season alive I think just overall, I found his performance to be kind of weird in the way of worse. the biggest thing that stood out to me, especially early in the game is he wasn't contesting shots as eagerly as he had been through the course of the series. Like, you know, look, he finished the game with three blocks. he was contesting stuff, but there were opportunities where I thought like Oh, this guy's driving. Weby's going to give a contest right there and make it a tough shot And he just showed up and maybe he got there a little bit late or run up but no contest at all and then it was opportunity there I think Hartenstein had a layup and then there was just stuff where there was like disorganization defensively and I don't know how much of that I'm going to put on Wemby or put on the whole team or put on the coaching staff in terms of their message of what they want to do defensively, but early in the game, Shay comes off a pick and roll Hartenstein rolls to the rim Foxes on Say. He's actually in pretty good position, but wheny Sades over but never makes it all the way to Shay like kind of stops at the block in case S's coming into the paint But he leaves Hartenstein and nobody pulls in And that gives up a wide open dunk or lay up for Aartenstein. And it was just small things like that where I wasn'ted almost felt like Weembi was unsure what to do defensively. where I'm so used to seeing like anybody drive by the rim, you're going to have to get it off over an eight foot dude. rightight? Like I think it's along those lines and that just didn't seem to be there in that aggression. And then, you know, on top of that him only having just six rebounds was kind of a flashpoint for me where it's like, okay, like I know you're contesting shots as well, but We're used to you getting ten, eleven, twelve rebounds a game on top of that Let's go a big picture because I do like that you started on defense because all the focus has been on why didn't you get into the pay moreore on offense? Why is he drifting? Why is he shooting jumpers? and The answers to that question have at least something to do with how the Thunder have been guarding him since game one when they basically scrapped the idea of having smaller guys guard him , because The bott line is like for all the scrutiny on the offense, they gave up one hundred twenty seven points. Yeah. someome of that is that the Thunder rooll players hit their threerees Caruso had another like where is this all season long? I guess you don't need it, but here it comes in the playoffs and McCain had a pretty loud So there's a little bit of time in the game where I was like there's a little too much Jared McCaine going on right now. I could use a little I could use like a hair less Jared McCain, You just got here, man. likeike I know you're starting like unbelievable that he's starting I do think just zooming way out He definitely Victor was came out of the locker room after halftime. with much more intent to get to the basket. You could see that and how hardardy roll to the rim. and when he rolls to the rim, good things happen You could see that in just when he would get the ball the dark spot He was just trying his best to burrow as far as he could and then to spin move and he pivoted. He had a Sitty at one point and pivoted to the rim and he missed all those like sort of leaning bankers that are somewhere between floaters and layups for him. He tried to Tac again throw it off the backboard to himself again, and he just missed them ball. But he clearly came out of the locker room, knowing just like he had after I can't remember which game did he say you know, I just I think it was one of the Minnesota game. game one of the Minnesota series where he said I didn't I didn't play the game correctly basically. Carly knowing like I didn't go with enough force North south to the basket and then he did I think people are just Like we're all very picky with these players and we want them to play these perfect pererfectly calibrated games all the time. I think it's just exhausting to play. I think there's like a big fatigue factor that that comes into play here where It's just hard to play with North South Ferosity on offense every single possession all the time, every game, start to finish and do what he does defensively. And that's what I that's what the halftime change said to me was, all right, look, man, I'm not it's I don't feel like maybe I don't feel like, you know, completely you know, fresh and whatever, but I got to give it everything I had. likeike this is playing the way everybody wants him to play every minute and the way that he's most effective playing every minute is really, really exhausting Well, I mean, being a big man's exhausting in general, right? Like we also know that their their referee differently than guards in terms of what's a foul and what's not. And I'm not trying to say anything about The u we should have gotten more calls or anything like that or I thought he was officiated pretty well in this game. I think ultimately though, it's just you got to bang bodies. all your catches are tough in the playoffs all your catches. everything at the dirk spot when he's trying to catch it. He has Hartenstein leaning on him. He has J William Jayalen Williams leaning on him. He's got all sorts of guys on top of him and that's just sort of wears you down and tires you out and is a bit exhausting and all of that But that's also the playoffs likeike thats kind of like that's That's what it's supposed to be, right? Like if it was easy The kings would well no, not the kings, but like, you know, another, you know sh you may you could give the kings a six player and they're not in the Western Dics finals. they might not be in the playoffs. But like I think the the the challenge though is like this is where he's got to figure out He's experiencing this. And I think we've seen flashes through the course of the season or the course of the playoffs where it's the youth of the sppurs have shown up times and I felt like that was this in this game to some degree and some of it was also, I just think the Thunder had a great game plan like we're going to be physical on him. We're going to make sure he feels us and be on top of him in that regard. We don't care that he's going to go to the free throw line twelve times. We're going to wear him down And they kind of did in this game. and I think you started to see that And as he wears down He drifts further and further away from the paint I don't blame it. likeike it's hard and it's physical and it's tough. in that regard, but like he's got to find a way to get back into the paint. And I think that's got to be stuff that, you know, I think Mitch Johnson has got to do a better job putting him in spots. I think they got to find different ways to get him looks and and closer into that area so that he's not drifting around the three point line. Yeah, there and there are ways to do that. I mean, I'm always astonished that they don't even just set like cross screens for him to cut across the page into a deep post up I thought they kind of went away from the corner pin down plays that he and Visll are so good at that that he's been increasingly like trying to just cut right across into the paint and the thunder have been bumping him like hell on those plays and the Spurs know that And on the backke end of those bumps, sometimes at the three point shooter, the guy who screamens for him pops open. So that's another reason I'd go. I'd go back to that, but also like Rolling to the rim is super hard work. obbviously he's amazing at it. He's giant and they throw it up to him and he Lobs dunks it in or taps it in or gets his own rebound. and we saw more of that in the second half But you also need to have to do that in tandem with your guards. And Fox has not been quite the same. He was four or fifteen also since the ankle industry injury Harper has been like a single digit sort of floating around a little bit, like like kind of non entity for a lot of the last two games since he had his injury. and so the timing on those plays hasn't been as easy and the Thunder clearly made a decision in game four and even more so in game five. We're going to get under every Steph Castle screen as best we can. We're going to lose some of those battles because the spurs are really good at making it hard to get under or setting screens lower and lower and lower. but It's a partnership and the synergy between the guards and Wenby wasn't always there. That said their offense is at at its best when he is rolling to the rim like a like a dynamic threat that just sucks everybody else into his orbit and opens up opportunities for everybody and he's so tall that He's going to get he's just going to roll into twenty points by by doing that. And I think they just got to do more Yeah, and I think, you know, they they're leaving something on the table everyvery time they go the Thunder go under a screen successfully. it needs to be an automatic rescreen and get that lower opportunity there because that once they go under, they're giving you real estate in that area and that's the opportunity to just immediately flip the res screen come right back off and then you're closer and now it's harder. The other thing that I found was really problematic, you know, when I rewatched the game this morning was just the spacing seemed so Oh! for the sppurs in the sense of a lot of cutting W that there is a play like, you know We talked about the start of the fourth quarter. There was a stretch in that second quarter where they cut the lead, you know, it's forty four forty five. It looks like they're about to make this more of a game, the Thunder go on a run but somewhere in that run Castle tries to thread the needle to Harper along the baseline is at the same time Keldon Johnson is cutting fromr the above the breraak three area And that allowed Dork to get in there and get a deflection.ember Harper gets it Rushes a shot misses it. but boom, it's a it's a scramble play. there the Thunder are running in early offense and get door to Can three and he knocks it down. like you're It's like you' there's just no avenue in terms of that spacing whereas, you know, like I love when teams cut and things like that, but I felt like with Harper already in the dunker spot like Johnson cutting wasasn't smart in that area. I feel like they were all just moving to move withithout there being real purpose behind their cuts and thinking the logic of like, oh, I need a space here because that's going to put D in a bad position because if he doesn't, Dor can't get in there and get that deflection. mayaybe that play turns out differently. And then we have the butterfly effect. But I feel like there was a lot of stuff with their spacing also that was incredibly off My favorite Victor role to the rim was right at the end of the first half. It was a picket roll with Fox who I thought his passing was pretty good in the game. I mean, Harper got bunch of times for turnovers. he was pretty shaky. but I thought Fox' passing was at least good Um It was right at the end of the first half. Viictor is so cagey. He does this on defense two where he tries to trick people into a false sense of security like, oh, he's not there and then he's there. He did it on offense where he set a screen for Fx and he just kind of popped a little bit like he was going to he paused like he was going to just stay nineteen feet from the Rim and shoot a jumper. And when he paused and he didn't roll Hartenstein committed to Fox completely. and then when Benyama rolled to the room was like a playled roll and he got a lot of dunk out of it. But let's go to the other end because you were right, I think to go to Spurs defense versus Thunder offense one hundred and twenty seven points is a lot of points against the WB team. Obviously it's against any team, but particularly considering the Thunder had their single worst offensive game of the season in game four And this is really interesting because there are two very distinct games with within each of these games There's the Hartenstein minutes where the Spurs are largely playing at man to man with Victor on Hartenstein And then there's the non Hartenstein minutes when Victor is playing his zone. along the baseline And I sa Those minutes Um, the the the spurs found I'm sorry, the Thuunders found some interesting counters to the WB one man zone. We'll talk about that later. The hardarden Stein minutes are really interesting because It almost seems like the Thunder are leaning a little bit more into them and definitely did in game five And I and Shay and Hartenstein, Hartenstein said eighteen ball screens in game five. That's by far his most of the series two man game kind of got the thunder down the stretch of the game. And I wonder if there's comomfort almost. I mean, I've been We talked about this You know, in December when they had all those games together, push and pull of, do you want Victor in the action or behind the action. And it's sort of like there are two different poisons. None of them are going to taste good But they seem to be growing comfortable with when he's in the action. At least we kind of know where he is and what what he's going to be doing. And I thought that they found some chemistry on that playate. It It's just so interesting. There are two very different kinds of games within these games. Yeah, you know, I was talking with Jared Dubin, my my podcast partner on the double Dble and he he actually had the stat. It was They went at Wemby in the fick and roll about twenty six times And they had a likeike a one point five points per possession or something like that or one point three five the hardens the Hardenstein ones on his ball screens according to secondecond spectrum, one point three points directly, one point five points per possession overall. So like huge numbers. likeike that's a number you don't expect when you're going at Wy, right? Like that's an insane number in that sense. So I think, you know, they found how they want to attack Wembey in this regard and how they're going to go at him. And I think part of it also has to do with the guards got to be better with how they hold up against SGA. I think they need to be a little bit smarter with their attacks. but that's the Thunder's focus right now. You could see it clearly in this game and it's paid off like the way this one out and then give hardight credit. He does a great job also with the Gorta immmediately afterwards and kind of screening off Wey and creating that another fives for Marching Gora. We every time you mentioned, M, I hope he's copyrighted it by I hope he hasn't because I'm going to be broke by the end of all this. But I think, you know, just having mastered that and creating that lane It just makes it so much harder. And even despite Weemby being as long as he is 's hard to get there you know, when you got to try to go over Artenstein and in that scenario like I think the thunder like it's funny we felt, I don't know. I kind of felt a little bit after game four. Like maybe the spurs have figured some stuff out with the Thunder I did too. And now game five. It's like, all right, well maybe the Thunder have figured some things out with the spurs. And this is the fun part about this series It' like cool. now the sppurs have to adjust. and figure out how do we want to handle this the the pick and rolls when they go at Wemb. What's going to be our rotation behind it? What are we going to do? And I think that's going to be the thing that I find most fascinating going into game six. Like I'm so excited for this game right now. like like ready to go. to lock it down. likeike we're ordering dinner. I'm not cooking dinner. dinner. You know, we' well, I'm now largely responsible for dinner over the next few months. So this is a deal here, but life F fair That's fair. She's responsible for some other stuff. Yeah. So but the margins, the margins on that stuff because it worked. in the fourth quarter to the second half of this game doesn't mean it's going to work in the next team. even if everything stays the same because the margins are so are so small and just every game' different. every game evolves differently. And there was that stretch in the fourth quarter where again, I think they just like knowing where Wemby is. I think there's comfort in just knowing if we do this, he's going to be here and Say would drag him down toward the sideline base to the Cffin corner where he loves to to take jumpers. There was at one play there was one possession where he took a jumper. I think he missed it. He went right into Weby's stomach and faded away. The next possession they ran the same thing and Weby came over and kind of stuck around and trapped him and shade through that lefty bounce patter right by Weby's leg, like right past his leg that found Hartenstein under the basket. It's such a good cat mouse game. but I also think they found something in the other kind of game, which is when Hartenstein's off the floor and it's Chet and Jay and Williams together or just Big Jel and Williams, interestingly They played no minutes the Thunder in game five with Chet as the only big man on the floor for whatever reason they just don't want to do that But when they play those more spacy lineups and Victor plays Zone I think they found some interesting ways kind of conffuse Weemby's decision making a little bit in that scheme. What didid you notice any of that? What did you see Well, I think it was more again, it became a situation where it's like, all right, when Jalen Williams sets a ball screen in that sit in that area in that zone when be sinking into the paint And it's just they're finding pockets of the rotation leads to Jayalen Williams gets the ball and then it's an immediate swing to somebody else because everybody's rotating and then weemby's got to rotate out to the corner, whether it's Wallace, Carusso, whoever. and some of these guys are making them. someome of them aren't. But it's like that's putting him in those rotations And because he has to protect the paint It's a long way to go. even for him, you know, it's two or three strides, but by that time that shot's going up Like he still has a long way to go is sort of stretching the floor out and what there I think the difference between Chet in that spot and Jaylen Williams when as D lone big. I feel like Jayen is pushing it quicker. like not hesitating for a second. I think Ch sits for maybe just half a second longer than he should. And I think that would allow Wemby to rotate over to wherever he needs to go. But I think Williams is pushing it out like he had that sick touch passass. Oh That was a great to. I mean that that that That was during the minutes when Say was on the bench But like that what, you know, but like he's firing it quickly on the touch. and it's really impressive seene. And I think that his passing. Not just his thread is shooting is a problem, but his passing is what's really kind of causing the allowing this to work so well for the Thunder And again, this is such a cool thing about the playoffs. and this is obviously partly because of of injuries, right? AJ Mitchell and Jayel and Williams the second and third best ballhlers on the team are out I'm not sure either is going to play in game six. I would bet no on both of them, but who the hell knows we'll see we'll see tomorrow U We still didn't really see Isaiah Joe except for one possession. We didn't see Aaron Wiggins at all Hanza Jalen Williams and Kenbridge Williams has inserted himself into this series. And this is the cool thing about the playoffs. is like you need everybody at some point you're going to need, you know, maybe not you know't may not need guys fourteen and fifteen, but you're going to need guys eleven and twelve at some point for some quarter of some game or some three minute stretch and they've needed big Jayen Williams quite a bit, but that play you're mentioning that touchpass, I think exemplifies one of the wrinkles they found when Weemby's playing his own. what he's doing is he's basically guarding the corner. except he's not in the corner. He's like one foot in the paint, but he's on one side of the paint And the Thunder have decided we're going to attack that side. We're going to bring the offense to his side of the floor. because that's the way we engage him directly and that Jayalen Williams touch passass was effectively a pick and roll became a two on one between Jayen Williams and Alex Caruso and whoever was in the corner and Victor And he had to make a decision and you force him into guarding two guys at once at a high speed. The very next plate on the floor was the same play and McCain drove and it was a two on one And Victor was indecisive and McCain kind of went by him inside of him and flick the lay up up. They're engaging his side and sometimes they'll clear everyone else to the other side of the floor So it's only two Thunder players on Victor's side and the guy in the corner will go up and set a ball screen and at that point with no one else around has to become a man to man ball screen defender and they got some good stuff out of that including a Caruso drive and a ch kind of half dunk or attempted dunk that went in after Victor blocked it They've just found some interesting wrinkles and I'm just I can't wait to see how this evolves to wit It's sometimes confusing what defense the sppurs are in, but I'm pretty sure We got the first couple of possessions of the series, M maybe not the very first, but the first in a while where they played Wemby in a zone An Hardenstein was on the floor. Um And so they weren't just in man with him on Hardenstein. They were like messing around with the zone even though the Thunder had their only like non shooting big on the floor and I wonder if they're I guess trying that out and see how See how that looks Yeah, I think they were searching for answers. And I kind of want to go back to your point though about needing your your twelfth man at the end of the bench scenario because that used to be a thing Zach when I was with the spurs We used to always show the guys at the end of the bench. forget what game it was, but there was a game during one of their playoff runs. where Steve Kerr hadn't played most of the playoffs And they pull him off the bench. It was against Das. Yeah. and he hits like three thes, right And it's a pivotal real important game situation and that stuff. And it was always the message of you got to stay ready And you got to be on top of all that stuff. So it's not a surprise and you were on top of it. You know, I heard you talking with Bill on Sunday night talking about the Kenridich Williams trees in the corner like that kind of created that sort of confidence so that when he came in the game tonight or yesterday that he was ready to roll. And I think that also allowed Dagaal to go like Yeahah, we got something we I can go to him now I can trust him in this situation. Like that's a guy stepping up with what you're talking about. I just wanted to touch on that point because it's so fascinating because you never know which guy going to be that role player in the moment until they do it Well, in the Thunder the Thunder need everybody right now with with the guys they have out. Just a couple of fun lineup notes. from the series I mentioned and they didn't play Chet at all as the only big guy on the forward is interesting. The Chet bigig Jail and Williams combination plus twenty in forty one minutes in the series. That's not a ton of minutes, but it's it's worked so far That combination of size and range and Jalen Williams passing has been interesting. Ched did finally sort of assert himself in the series for really the first time offensively. Um in game five ands a couple of always has very good defensive possessions. Sothough Julian Champannei Jewish Chenies like, Oh, you're a foot taller than me and more than that when you raise your arms or whatever it is, I don't care. I'm going right into your stomach, big fella and laying the ball up over you That's actually a matchup, I think to Spurs could exploit a little bit more by having Julian Champani run around and run off flare screens. If Chet's going to guard him. Make him chase him around Um, And then the as as the the Thunder sort of search for best shooting lineups that they can put out that don't totally shooting slash playmaking lineups The small ball group Forsome of Say. Wallace McCain Carusso. plus eleven in eight minutes in game five. and I think like with all the guys they have available. If they're going to go small, that's the best four non bigs they can put out finally made a shot or two, but he's minus forty five for the series and this is just a really rough matchup for him U Yeah. I mean, who knows what we're going to see, but these these two teams, the chess match is super interesting. I expect the sppurs to play and to play like a totally balls through the wall, urgent, hard playing, come out fast, like home crowds going crazy. I expect Victor to come out right from the opening the way came out of the second half, which is I'm going to the rim. I'm erring on the side of recklessly going to the rim. I'm not going to be settling for jumpers early Yeah a couple of things too that kind of like stood out to me from this game that was like when I looked at the stat sheet, I was kind of surprised One, I wasn't surprised Thunder getting twenty six second chance points like just absolutely dominating the offensive class in the sense of successfully converting all their offensive rebounds almost into points right there. I think that was surprising for me with the sppurs not doing a great job defenseivelyither I was it was funny because I looked at the statute at the end of the night going like, wow, this first had twenty six fast break points. But I didn't even feel like they played fast. Like it didn't even feel like they got that. I mean, they were some of it was sloppiness in the way they they attacked and so on, but I also felt like they were too slow in the half court R? like And some of this a Thunderers defense does a great job with it. They Look at how they had two or three back quar steals. I mean Wallace completely picks I think it was Dylan Harper clean There's no one else in the league who does the I'm taking your dribble while it's in the air and sometimes while it's in your hand. He just take he just takes the ball. It doesn't hit the floor. It's canany It was like he timed the crossover perfectly. That went through a sequence right around Carter Bryant's probably last few minutes of this the series where he had a rough stretch with giving up a three tochet and then the stupid foul. but Just in general like they need to find a way to speed up even in the half court. notot, but not How to control But you need to get it up quicker. There was a possession in the second half where they got it up quickly. They got it to Wemby on a almost like an isolation sort of pinch post area and he was able to attack the baseline and get an opportunity. I think it led a kickout three. But I think you They need to find ways to get a little bit quicker in that sense. It doesn't necessarily have to be transition but they need to play a little bit more faster while also under control, which I know is kind of a bit of a You know about Aim Transition is important for them because they have they have here and there benefited from a couple of cross matches that are just sort of part of this series Fox got a lay upp I think in game five. He's not guing guarding Dort Dort is guarding him and when the thunder fall into the trap of Oh we got to find our right matchups instead of just picking up the right guy, the guy' nearest to them The Spurs have been able to squeeze some baskets out. like Vll hit a trail three in game four because he's guarding Chet. but Chet's not guarding him and just he kind of got lost in the shuffle. like very unusual And not very many but still unusual breakdowns for the Thunder in transition defense. I also thought the spurs pretty good stuff going when they hunted McCain and I would expect them to try to do that even more because there's just not a lot of good places to attack the Thunder. likeike Fox bullied them for a couple of drives and just missed it. They're in. they got other good stuff out of it. And part of that comes down to like how much do Fox and Harper having the tank healthwise to really go full blast in the series, but I expect Weenby to come out like a madman getting to and I don't like a finely calibrated man and he's not going to do anything crazy. He's not going to do anything that compromises their transition defense takes them out of their scheme. But I expect him to just come out laser focused on. I'm owning the basket both ends of the floor and playing myself to exhaustion until they have to rest me for a couple of minutes and I'll come right back and do. I'm expecting just, I don't know how efficient it's going to be I do It doesn't seem like Shay's going to have a crazy Sh efficiency game in him in the series. second half was really good. He made a lot of tough shots It's just this is a tough defense for him to score on when when they're playing him like they've played the last two games. and he fought his way out of it. We don't need to talk about the officiating. They missed the goal tend and all that. But Um yeah, I expect a big Victor game and look this this was a thirteen point game. U I thought the Spurs had chances to make it a nail biter in that early stretch of the fourth quarter and they didn't and the thunder shot forty four percent from three to spur shot. twenty nine percent and the thunder just gave the Spurge just gave the thunder probablyably eight points with dumb fouls eighty feet from the basket and they were fouls. They weren't phony fouls. They were just really dumb fouls with the with the with the Thunder and the bonus and you can't can't do that stuff They tend, I think sometimes to get a little bit too aggressive. in the moment where they think they can get that steal. That's that Carter Bryant half court, you know, after the steal. It's, you know Castle Falx Say like seventy five feet from the basket in that area. Like I think they have a habit of kind of getting a little bit too aggressive And I think that's where a little bit more experience might be better in that area. that's where I feel like their youthfulness kind of shows up and I think like or they feel like they have to do it. The other thing we haven't really talked about him, but like Castle needs to not try to do everything on his own too Like there's an element where I feel like he's putting too much ono him and I understand why the situations with Fox and Harper and their their injuries and stuff and he feels like he has a bigger load But I'd almost rather rather the g let he let the game come to him versus him trying to force things and make things happen because that's where he tends to run into these turnovers, trying to split double teams at half court and things like that and it coughs the ball up Like I want to see him a little bit more under control with what he does because I think that's going to be a really important piece for them. That's a good that jogs my memory to the phrase under control. I mean, Castle's young and he's uber athletic and and just plays with a force that is going to lend itself to some moments of of out of controlness. although I thought he was completely awesome for the most part in game five Jay That first half was I don't know if he's actually rattled, but he played rattled in that first half. He missed shots that he makes like at a seventy percent clip probably in the paint two times in the game where he rose up for a shot that he usually takes and Weby was in the vicinity but didn't look like he was going to challenge the shot. And then he second guessed himself and tried to force a lob pass. to somebody and the lob was not available. And he had a bunch of turn like, I don't know how many turnovers to finish five fiveive in the first half and just would just forcing the action trying de like the desperation he feels if if I see any sliver Got to get through that sliver else it's the only opportunity I'm going to have Um just like it this but this is the fun of the playoffs. This is a great player who we've spent the better part of the last four years and particular the last two been like, man He just makes it look so easy. I mean, justs just effortless and it ain't looking easy anymore that's the that That's the beauty of the playoffs. likeike it's not supposed to look easy. It didn't look easy for Michael Jordan and not to compare them. I'm not comparing them, but I remember some of like the grittiest, some of my favorite games of Jordanans's and Kobey's and whoever were the ones where the easy stuff wasn't there and they had to get to the line. They had to just throw their bodies at the rim.'s that's the fun of it. So look, predicting individual games is complete folly I guess what I came away from that game not feeling as if The Thunder had cracked the series. I still feel like the spurs If they don't have a win, one more win in them They have one more down to the wired game in them And so I picked Thunder and seven. That was my pick before the series. So I I think I think the spurs are going to play well And I think it's going to be a very hard win for the Thunder to get. wouldn' surprise me if they get it, but I'll predict a spurs win just to stick with my original prediction because I do think They could have gotten right into that game late had a couple of things flipped their way. don't play better at home. So I'll say the Spurs w Spurs win by four will be my prediction. Okay. I had the sppurs in seven So okay I think I I am I do think the sppurs win game six I think we do have a game seven Uh, I I'm hoping it's a nail biter I hope we get another OT game and just have sort of that level of excitement and raise the level. I hope the nuns are ready to go. I hope they're praying and doing all their stuff and none ready ready ready to keep things going. Do wonder though a little bit with just like How much energy they have left. likeike Weby did look tired Fair like we talked all about it. likeike Weby looked exhausted and it's, you know, it's hard now it's every other night and it's, you know, this was a they traveled right after the game. Luckily Oklahoma City, San Antonio, not a crazy flight, right? But like you're still getting in late getting the rest and things like that. And it's also mentally draining Right? And you saw the crack with him not going as a media thing like that. said a lot to me I was just I think that's a disappointment for me. I I expect oneB to be on there. I understand he was frustrated with the loss for me. I think it It's it's something that he's got to do and that's that's like a little bit of a like, come on man But you can tell that he's there's a level of exhaustion coming now. you know, even whispering the the to Bombo and and plumly. whether he said anything or not. I don't know, but then immediately them them being a rash of fouls, you know, like hard Fouls kind of saidays something. So I think, you know, there's a little bit of a crack there that I think I'm slightly kind of worried about going into game six Um Yeah. I mean, look both this is the nature of the playoffs like, but I don't I just didn't come away from that game feeling like the Thunder had cracked the code of the spurs. Now whether the spurs can summon enough energy and force with all their health issues and depth issues that are cropping up now We'll see. I think they have one exhilarating home crroud home performance in them whether it results in a win or not. I don't know. but I'll say I'll say that they win and You know, look I guess, you know who's fresh? I guess it's good Nick Nurse didn't play Jared Mcain the entire year because at least Ler's one guy who's doesn't have a lot of tread on the tires. All right, Mode to kill Double drible podcast with Jared Dubin. you can see them on offside. you can see them on everything, Twitch, et cetera, et cetera.. Thanks, Budd and we'll check in during the NBA finals, which begin on june third. location. TBD. Thank you, Mo Oh thank you for having me All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production. Thanks to Mike Breen and Moe Dequil for their analysis and their time. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back later this week for a third episode, a special, third episode in the wake of game six it'll probably post overnight or Friday morning, we're talk about game seven orr we'll talk about The NBA finals and the spurs off season. We'll see buckle up, ennjoy game six. Thanks for listening and see you next time. twenty one over and President select states for Kansas an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen and over in Presididenton in DC, Kentucky, Wyoming, gambling problem, called one eight hundred Gambler or one eight hundred My reset Call one eight, seven eight nine, seven seven seven seven or visit CcpG dot org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MD gamblinghp dot org in Maryland. Hope is here. 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