Playoff Winners and Losers

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What happened last night first thunder, the hype was through the roof And the series in game one exceeded the hype by a lot doctor Webanyama I mean, what can you even say? The rest of the league watch that game. It is just like, oh my go What are we supposed to do forty five points, twenty four rebounds, whatever the hell was. I don't even know just living at the rim on offense only took two threerees. Oh yeah, and the one he made we'll never forget that one for the rest of our lives from the Steph Curry spot to tie the game at overtime Spurs end up kind of dominating the second overtime one zero. This is now six games. The spurs are five in one Against the Thunder. What can the Thunder do to get their offense on track against this monster who's just spending the whole game lurking on the baseline freaking everybody out including Say Gilj just Alexander the now two time consecutive MVP who had a seven of twenty three shaky shooting game. They just can't get in rhythm against this team. How much trouble are the Thunder in? How much trouble is the world in with Victor Weminyama already being maybe the best player in the NBA, certainly on track to be the best player in the NBA. if not now, then like tomorrow and just a two way performance the likes of which you will not see. veryer often in your life. Rob Mahoney' here to help us with all of that. pllus a quicky Nick Kads preview, maybe some winners and losers of the playoff so far. That's all coming up next on the Zach Low Sh Zach Low show is brought to you by Fandl. The conference finals are here Stink you know how it' go down, takeake your shot with Fandal and get closer to the action. Fandl is the best place to bet the teams, the players and plers during the NBA post season. Build the same game parleay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fandl spportsbook app now and play your game twenty one or over in President of select states, eighteen or are over in DC, Kentucky Wyoming gambling problem called call one eight hundred gambler. callall one eight seven eight nine seven seven seven seven or visit CcPG dot org slash chat in Connecticut Tw This Zach Lo show. Rob Mahoney. Oh my God What happened last night? What did we witness Spurs Thunder The hype was through the roof And game one somehow exceeded the hype the the spurs win by some score and double overtime. I don't even remember anymore what the score was Dctor Wbenanyyama forty five points twenty four rebounds Three blocks Plus sixteen in forty nine minutes. And Rob, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that That is as great and dominant a two way basketball game as any human being has ever or could ever play in a setting like this. I don't even like, I don't even know what else to say I don't even think that's hyperbole. And I think we're going to do that a lot today of this was the greatest, this was the most amazing. This is I mean, I'm ready to go out and say like a game like this is just an amazing display of what modern basketball can be by both teams. just like the pinnacle of where the sport is right now How do you do it better than that? How do you do it better than forty nine minutes as a big and a double overtime game and every single second feels like you are having a profound impact on literally everything that's happening on the floor I don't know. What I do know is The Spurs won the game their ahead one zero in the Western conference finals. They did it without Darren Fox, the other guy who made the all star team for them this year. likeike who freaking cares if he plays or not, I guess. Yeah Dylan Harper had a fantastic game St on Castle had eleven turnovers. I don't even care. I don't care that he had eleven turnovers. I don't care because he's tough as shit and he made a bunch of plays that we'll talk about on both ends of the floor Wby just lived at the rim more than I think any game I've ever seen him play. He's just like I'm not he took two threes. We'll talk about the one that he made because I think we'll remember it all forever. And before we sort of go through the highlights of the game, You mentioned just the high level of intensity and play in this game. just an apex NBA apex basketball kind of game, stack it up with any kind of like high quality Cav's Warriors Warriors Rockets in the hardard and CP year. like whatever you think of as This was as high and brilliant a display of best wass I've ever seen. This was one of those games and interestingly, It was a very defense first game. You look at the stats Spurs offensive rating one hundred six per one hundred possessions. That would have ranked I think last in the NBA or close to last in the regular season. The playoffs have been a totally different, much stingier environment H Thunder one hundred and two point seven points per hundred possessions. Like that's just that's those are bad numbers, but you look at the process and you're like these teams are pulling every lever possible. They're probably the two best defensive teams in the NBA. The Thunder certainly been number one. And they're just digging as deep as they can into their resourcefulness into whatever bags they have to try and scrouge anything like a good look, especially in the paint. And this is the best they can do. And the spurs are now five and one against the Thunder. And the common theme in those six games is the Thunder just haven't been able to score against when Binyama and the sppurs defense. in the five regular season games. they had a one hundred nine offensive rating, which is below league average. And again, this is an elite sixty whatever win team last night, one hundred and three And I think as we zoom out and we will zoom out at some point, the biggest question that the Thunder have is What are they supposed to do on offense? to get points And we know that we know how where Weemby's going to be. Weemby iss going to be guarding No one. He's going to just be playing hiszone. Sometimes he'll be guarding Carusso, sometometimes' be guarding Dort Hartenstein just record time played out of off off the series out of the series C can't be on the floor when Byamm's on the floor because you just like we saw with the Gbert, you can't give him center whose only role in offense is to screen and dive. And if he's not doing that, he's just hanging out by the dunker spot. It just makes Weenby's life too easy on defense and Just they I don't know what the answer is. That that's the big picture question, but Before we get into the nitty gritty, I mean, any any big picture thoughts of that ilk or just takes you want to get off before we go I need a cigarette. this It really feels like you know, the guy in the air traffic control room on airplane, like I picked the wrong week to stop huffing glue. Like that was every play in overtime and double overtime for me somehow And it was like the quality of play was just escalating, escalating, escalating. The Thunder played a great game. Like Shagel just Alexander wasn't at his emphatic best and we're gonna to get into all of the elements of that But they played well enough to win. they played championship level basketball. It just became so clear in watching this how much all season, frankly, as we did the dance of the nuggets and the wolves and the rockets and the Lakers and all these other teams like Everybody was playing for third. I It's hard to watch a game like this and not just go through the mental exercise of could anybody have hung in a series like this against these kinds of powerhouses, but even just like what kind of players? couldould the star on your favorite team be locked in in the way that these guys were locked in. The way that A random rotation defender in this game. was on pinpoint precision for you know, forty nine, forty five, fifty minutes, depending on how much they played It's amazing what the demands of of a like a contest like this are and what it tells you about who can hang and who can't because Isai Herstein's a great player. He should be able to play in any series. and yet in this one, he's a problem. Chet Holgrren is a hyper versatile weapon in every other matchup And then he goes up against the spurs and it's like What do you do with him on offense? How do we tap into what makes him effective I love what these teams bring out at each other. I love how dig like how far they already have to dig to find those options and If you're one of those fans who goes through playoff series like begging your coach to make some kind of adjustment begging for some change in rotation. Mark Dagnald's already made like fifteen different modifications over the course of this game in the search for something. So like it's going to be a fascinating one to watch just the tactics evolving in real time. I've spent the last two months, every four podcasts. I'm like, I can't wait to see if they try their version of the death lineup. Ive wonder if they've been saving it for a series like this and that lineup to remind people is SGA AJ Mitchell Caruso who I don't even know what the fuck happened with Alex Caruso last night. justust anotherbody' been very J D who came back and looks pretty good and Chet, that lineup played three minutes in the entire regular season to your point about Dagal nine minutes in one game against the sppurs in the Western conference finals. Plus three and yet the search for offense continues Nonet Carusso like Oh, footnote. teen three point attempts. he's going to be treated like the Celtics or like the bucks treated Grant Williams in that famous game seven. They're just going to let him shoot. Like if he wants to I wrote in my notes in the first quarter. I have a Google Doc for every series. The notes for this one are I think a mental institution would probably want to take a look at them and be like, you this is problematic now just whatever is going on here. U But somewhere in the first quarter, I wrote They're going to make him take twenty threes in this game and they made him take fourteen and he made able thirty one points and like seventeen amazing defs to plays. They still lost. I just want to review Okay, Dylan Harper twentyw years old. forty seven minutes. twentyw four points, eleven rebounds, six assists and seven steals He had an and one in the second overtime When he just blew through Shade Gilj just Alexander like wasn't even there and finished at the rim and it's like, Ohh twenty years old, sureure justust bullied the two time MVP. Awesome. Like possession didn't go anywhere. give the ball to Dylan Harper fine. Also are like kind of point guard here, go guard JW for significant portions of this game. like not worried about it twenty years old, no big deal. Steph Castle, a modest five of fourteen, eleven turnovers, also eleven assists Um and has just understood both of these guards have understood The entry passes that are too hard to make in ninety nine point nine percent of basketball situations by which I mean, Pick and roll whichit wheny rolls to the rim Y' big guy rolls to the rim and you're you're directly like your youre parallel, I don't know. it's a straight on pass like a very tough angle, straight on entry pass Big defenders frontting it. You normally can't make that pass. They've all understood now. Oh yeah, we can just make any pass. He's going to go up and get it And great defense as always, we'll talk about that It will be lost to history Devin Vasll fifty one minutes. teteen points and a block on Set Hgin after an offensive rebound with forty five seconds left in double overtime and the spurs up for where I just like Cruso misses a reverse layup, the Wemby effect brutal and Ched gets the rebound of Devinll doesn't box him out but makes up for it very quickly. And it just looks like this is going to be a dunk and Devin Cll goes straight up at the rim and just fucking swatch Ched homegrid. I'm just These these young guys are unbelievable and the spurs are up one o. I don't know what else to say, Rob before we get into the Well whatever. Let's give Devin Vasll a quick moment here because I think we're going to get into the Wimby stuff so deep. We're going to get into all of these like huge impactful scoring performances and I think Demvis' is a really important breakthrough score for the sppurs too. L you dedicate so much attention to Wemby and Dan Harper and Stefan Casso in particular that he ends up getting some really painful buckets for opposing teams That block and he's he's had a bunch of these throughout this playoff run where he's not a guy who racks up steals and blocks The impact plays he does make on defense or Pop shelf shit, like absolutely elite in the moment except no substitute sort of defensive impact. He can be that guy. He's not that guy every second. he's on the floor. He's not a go to stopper for fifty minutes. But man I have learned not to underestimate who Devin Vasll can be on defense and just how vital he can feel in a game like this. And he's had a lot of great contested rebounds and gang rebounds and tip out rebounds. Like he has just decided I probably came into the league with ambitions to be a twenty point score, you know, I'm an ace jump shooter all that My defense wasn't where it needed to be And now I'm on this team like, o, This is what they need me to do. Yeah. If we win, everyone gets the glory, everyveryone gets the credit. Let me amp up that end of my game. he's done all that. Okay. I want to go through this a little differently. This is just plays I want to embed in my brain forever from this game. We're going to go more or less from the end to the beginning. And just like let's just riff on like you may have forgotten some of these. I had to rewatch the game this morning to remember. these this is me to my brain. Please remember these. Are you ready? I am ready. I had a feeling this pod might turn into like a Chris Farley show style. Do you remember this play that was awesome? But like let's just lean into the bit. Let's just make it the structure of the show Yes, I love the Chris Farley showh. I used to joke that if I ever get Diana Tarasi on the Zach Low Sh, it will just be the Chris Farley Sh with Diana Tarasi as the gu as it should be And this is just let's name some guys except let's name some plays, basically. I'm going to start in the first overtime And I'm going to start before the shot that everyone will remember forever I think this will also be forgotten to history and I wonder what your reaction to it was aboutbout forty seconds left in overtime overtime one. The Thunder somehow are up by three, even though it felt all game like they were just desperately searching for any kind of production on offense or up by three They get to stop. Shehay has just had an incredible dunk to put them up by three. Champagnei misses a three on the other end. They get the ball back And with thirty five seconds left and eleven on the shot clock. Three. Jalen Williams takes a contested leaning fading two pointer from the left elbow againgain with eleven on the shot loock that in the moment, like it's when you're watching these games, you're both friends, you're trying to be analytical, but you're also frenzied because fl tensitives In the moment I was like, o I don't I don't quite love that. And we'll talk about what happened Next Do you canan you visualize that shot and like what do you remember thinking at the time? Because like what am I am I going to blame him for Yeah, you know What is he get? I want him to hold the ball for eight more seconds and take a worse shot. I think I do frankly I can visualize the shy you're talking about. I do remember thinking in the moment, Of, like that is a tough look in this moment, but it's been a game of tough looks and you're right about there not being a guarantee you're going to get anything better than that. I I give JW a pass for that sort of thing because I thought he played. Just like an unbelievably like fearless game. for coming back in You know, having missed a bit of the playome wecome back and welcome back to this game Seriously And he didn't show like any hesitation in terms of going like all like full physicality, full speed plays all night. He came up with so many like really gutsy moments that Can you blame a guy for trying to come up with one that's a little bit ill advised A shot clock violation probably would have been better even in real time. I thought that, but that is stough eleven on the shot clock was too early. but again, he also I can't remember exactly when it happened. It might have been on the S Dunk. he got like Castle just straight up shoved him in the back and he thought of bounds. rememember look for a second like he had aggravated his leg injury and God he was fine That was roably should have been a foul. I don't even remember when it happened. My brain is broken. Okay, immediately following the JW miss. This you will have no problem visualizing. No. Victor Webinyama makes the Steph Curry three from maybe like a foot or two inside the Steph Curry logo shot from all those years ago. and I think the entire world blacked out for a second There were twenty six point three seconds on the clock when it went through the net. So he effectively got them a two for one, which almost ended up getting them the game We' talk about that I mean, do you think he I didn't see his post game comment yet. Do you think he took that shot thinking two for one thinking we're down three. This is as good of a look as I'm going to get to try to tie the game And of course He spends the entire game playing the way everybody wants him to play Rim, Rim, Rim, not taking any threes. He takes one from a million feet out and makes it and I'm just sitting there like The crowd went dead silent The broadcast almost went dead silent r than Reggie Miller laughing. just goffawing. ye I mean It's just an all time shot. It's up there with the Steph logo shot. It's up there with the best of Clays eleven Threes in that arena. It's it's I mean, it's not the Kaire shot, which won the championship basically, but it is It's not the Ray Allen shot in terms of leverage and stakes, but It's up there with almost any shot in this kind of setting ever considering the guy is seven five. it's the Wester confference finals and you're down three. The step shot is the obvious like point of comparison as you raised in Park is the arena in Park is it's like, man, if only we got another double bang here for Weemby But also the fact that you're getting that shot in a bigger moment with with the greater stakes from a guy who has basically been playing like shack all night. Like that feels like forget unicorns for a second. The past and future of basketball collapsing on itself in a singular moment of like who Viictor Webinyama is and can't be. The fact that he can do all of this all game, be dunking on everybody, be ruining Chet's life pull up for a shot like this I do think the two for one was probably on his mind because to be honest, it is drilled into like every young player from the second they get in the NBA these days. And he was on top of so many details in this game I'm willing to believe that I also think he is the kind of player who is so selective and so devastating in when he does deviate from what the smart play is. L he did spend the vast majority of this game doing that exact right thing all night Rim running hard, fighting for every offensive rebound, doing a lot of thankless stuff that the spurs need him to do He also had a play earlier, I think it was in the fourth He caught it in the paint double teamed by Caseason Wallace and Ched and it's like You should pass this ball out. likeike this is a pass you should make. It's an easy basketball play. You have a wide open shooter And he just like lowered a shoulder into chet and then went up straight through him and finished in a way that is not the technical right basketball play, but it's something that is ultimately more psychologically damaging. And it happen it happened with ten minutes It was on my list. So we could just do it now. It with ten minutes left in the fourth quarter thereabouts. It was a harper Wemby pick and roll. They switched it Cason Wallace, I guess, I don't even remember was the guy who switched onto him. They lobb it over the front. He catches it. Chet meets him on the catch F from the dunker spot on the catch' right there. He's in a sandwich. He's in a sandwich and he takes one puts the ball on the floor. takes one dribble and kind of just shoulder in the chest the Chet's stomach and chest moves them out of the way and puts the ball in the bestest. You're like, okay, I don't know what am I supposed to do now? It's Chet Hb. It's not like he just moved away Yeah like like, I don't know, N Niicola Vuchevich, it was Ched Olberren. He was like it wasn't even there L that's the part of Wby that I really and truly love is yes, he wants to take the big shots. We've seen him throughout this playoff run. anyytime there's like a momentum three to take. he will usually take it But he also wants to take the shots and make the plays that fucking break teams. And that's what this felt like is one that What do you do? after the night he's had, after how dominant he's been on both ends If he can also just step out and do this. If he can show the discipline to do all the right things, but also make it hurt in just that specific way where you have nothing to do about it You know, As the game was unfolding And u JW misses that shot And Victor iss bringing the ball up There was a suddenness to that decision Like my brain was our my brain was thinking, okay, what is he going to do? What's the play? what are they? And then he was shooting My brain was not ready him to shoot. and then he was shooting and then it went in and it was like, what just happened? It was a very like weird cognitive He was just the action was ahead of what my brain was processing. Yes. Um, do you think do you think famous under Paul George. wasas anywhere on a couch being like That was a bad shot You know, I thought about couch repercussions several times in this game and just people who are just are shivers going down their spine even if they're not watching the game. And we were going to do win we still could do it winners and losers of the playoffs so far at the end of this podcast, but one of my losers was going to be Um The Hawks slash Zachary Roe and the rockets slash Reed Shepherd watching Steph Castle do stuff like Steph Castle's doing And just what a sliding doors moment that third. I think R Shepherd iss going to be a nice NA player. Don't get me wrong The Rockets and the Spurs both have ambitions to win right now And in that draft, they both had a shot to getst Steh Castle. One team got and one team didn't and one team is in the Western conference fininals and one team's not and Eay Odoa clearly had a love, not love trust trust sometimes relationship with Reacheper anyw T After the Wemby shot. Yes, Paul Paul George is always feeling, whether it's whenever Dame does something, Paul George feels something shiver down his spine. It's just he's got a lot going on And Then I went to bed after the game And after watching some clips I can't sleep. My wife is annoyed as hell because I'm just keeping the whole house up walking around, pacing around, not sleeping. And I'm thinking wait a second, wait a second. I remember I remember the Victor three. and I remember the sideline out of bounds to Steph Castle that Caruso breaks up at the end of the first overtime. to go into a second overtime What was it that happened in between? And my brain just like totally forgot what happened in between on the Thunders and possession And what happened was JW had a wide open, not wide open an open right wing three on a kick from SGA. with five seconds left to basically win the game and my brain because it was such a mundane play, nothing is mundane. It just looked like normal basketball compared to a seven five guy pulling up from step range and Caruso breaking up an out of bounds play. that my brain was just like, we don't have space in our memory to memory hold this one. So I watched it this morning. It's a pretty goddamn clean look and again, some threes go in, some threes don't, but just, you know, I want my brain to remember like, oh yeah, there was like a pretty normal late game three pointer to basically win it for OKC that just just like front rim backboard and out I mean, that's the agony of a game like this, right? is every Mak or miss three, but also all of those layups and opportunities where You know, Weby had these guys kind of seeing ghosts or looking over their shoulder. like it could be that shot or you could flash backwards and find like a missed Alex Caruso layup where he finally got past Weemby and then just like smoked it because you never really lose that guy. There's a million plays of which everything fell apart That one though is tough. I mean, like that is the kind of look you're hoping for on the other JW possession, right is like, can you play process a little bit more? Can you get into the flow a little bit more? Can you get something a little cleaner And they finally did and they missed it anyway. Um And then of course, at the end of overtime, the lob to castle that Cuso breaks up clean I hunted that thing liive, I thought, o, is that going to be a foul and we're going to have a debate and it wasn't, I don't think there was any foul at all. I think it was a perfectly clean play by Caruso after he had already made like several crazy defenseive plays we'll talk about We should also say, I just thought a very well officiated game overall. maybe some calls you'll quibble with, but like they let these guys play. they all a lot of physicality. They didn't bait they didn't reward any of the kind of baiting and complaining that frankly goes both ways. likeike Steph Castle is guilty of some of that stuff too And that really contributed to the feeling of This is an important game. For as much as the league in particular tries to drum up interest around the regular season or the NBA cup, like it's very simple This stuff feels important when it is important. and you could sense it every possession of this game in part because of the level of physicality that was allowed And Some of my favorite moments from the offfficiating whereere Zach Zarba reviewing things for flagrance Yeah and just kind of quietly lecturing everybody involved that like no, that's not a flagrant foul. including when Wemy ran into Caruso with two minutes left. I think of the second overtime. Caruso fell over Some embellishment occurred. Sure. And Dagal rather than just being happy the refs called an offensive foul on Wemby is immediately like takeake a look, review it, review it for a flagrant fou. And so they review it and ZagZarb is like, upon review, there was no follow through, there was no windu. This does not meet the criteria for a flagrant foul. Just let's move on with like too be fair, all of those reviews in a game like this are like Can we please get JWble water break? Can we please let these guys sit down for one second? You think you think I'm missing the real point or Mbe just to get rest. Okay. mayaybe I think I think you got to buy every second you can in a game like this I. just and then the last before we take a break A minute left and double overtime, more or less the basket that end of the game Spurs up one And they did this a couple of times where They would bring Harper and Castle, the two guys that if you're going to help, You're going to help off those guys. They bring them high above the arc on the wings And they have Visll and Champanney lower in the corners. and this is a scripted out of time out play double over timeime about a minute left And Wby ducks in on Caruso, I think and they lob in the entry pass Cuso goes for the steel, doesn't get it comes over to help and Wemby just crams on his face for an and one to put them up by four and that's now I mean there's more stuff that happens, but that's more or less the last super meaningful basket of the game. It just a great pass a great play design, very intentional. and just Whenby grabs the ball, doesn't give it back and to your point, like This guy loves just snatching your soul like that. And that was a soul snatching play Well, you love snatching Chet's soul, I think maybe more than most people. And there really is something about Chet whether it's manufactured or not, whether it's media propelled or not in terms of the way those two guys were compared over time He just kind of hulks out whatever Ched is in the vicinity and the number of baskets he just scored straight over the top of onene of the best defenders in the world is kind of like shocking to watch. and yet, I don't know what you're supposed to do about it. Like Ched is in the right positions. He's trying to contest those shots. The Thunder are trying to use him in a kind of a similar roving capacity. And it's like, what do you do? Like what are you supposed to do if those like entry passes are that precise. If you're able to thread the needle over an Alex Caruso front and contest, in time for Victor to catch it, turn and dunk over the top of Chet Honggren. If that's the case, you're just going to lose in games like this. likeike that's just going, if that's what the battleground looks like, I'm not sure there's enough margin for error for anyone, including the defending champions. So to your point about just the insanity of how big he is. a couple of the other plays I wanted to just review for fun There was one in the third quarter. It was again out of a time out. It was essentially the same play that I just described. Harper and Castle are lifted up to the wing. the shooters are in the corners. Ducan, it's JW Garding him this time. They throw the lob And JW jumps with like all his might. He's froning for he jumps with all his might. He reaches as high as he possibly can go to tip the ball And in my notes I wrote, he reminds me of like a younger sibling or the runt of your childhood friend group, when someone taunts him by holding up the thing that he wants, It's like, you can reach it. You anytime you want. go ahead and reach it. go ahead and you can't reach it because the guy's too big. And then I think it was in double overtime. It was two fifty left in double overtime Burs were up two Somebody missed. I think Castle missed a three JW boxed out Victor Webenyama in the paint. And he just got the Billy Madison offensive real over the time reached up over his head the ball. JWob is looking up like this like he's staring up at a skyscraper or an eclipse or something and Victor just grabs the ball, like just feet above Jade upob's head and puts it back in to put them up by force. What am Ied? And you can feel his pain, Jadeob's pain this is a textbook box out. What else am I supposed? Can someone else come in here and help me? because I can't do anything other than this? He's just big boying these dudes, like like a bully. It's not nice there were so many of those textbook moments and this kind of contributes to the high level of play overall. Like there were guys like J Dub doing the exact right things textbook precision in terms of the box out There are also so many possessions where it's like watching the Thunder navigate The spurs like staggered screens and it's like a it's like a touch and recover buried within a switch. like They are navigating this stuff as well as a defense possibly can. And then you see it and it's just like, oh, they get the ball to Wemby anyway. or Stefan Castle throws like a crazy cross court pass to an open shooter in the weeaks side corner because the lowan had to cheat over to help to like body Wimby on the way I really don't know what you're supposed to do. Job I thought he frronted Wbe Well. I thought he guarded Wenbe Well. I thought he boxed out WB Well It's just none of it meant anything. And what you're supposed to do psychologically to pick up after a game like that, What you're supposed to do in the Thunder Coaches meeting to say like, okay How do we do the stuff we wanted to do better There really isn't a lot of room for that Well, I mean, to that point, again, Burr's offensive rating was one hundred six in this game, which would have been last or like bottom three in the NBA for the regular season. And with Wy on the floor it was one hundred nine, which is better. But like the bottom line is the Thunderers defense did its job despite how some of these highlights look The Thunder defense was totally up to par, up to the testk. They just couldn't score enough to win the game and we're going to talk about what the answers, if any, they have. Uh But let's take a quick break now and then there's just can can you indulge me? There's just a few other plays that I want to run through. justust let's name some plays. name some guys Athlees The Zach Low show is brought to you by Fandel And Fandal is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. With more ways to build and more value every time you play, you can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment From spreads to player points to threes and more, build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on fan Duel moreore options, better payouts, all NBA playoffs long. head tofando. com slash low to get started Fandal playay your game twenty one over in select states, eighteen are over DC, Kentucky, Wyoming Gambling problem. callall one eight hundred gambler. Call one eight, seven, eight nine, seven seven seven seven or visit ccPG dot org slash chat in Connecticut This episode is brought to you by Micolobe Ultra. The playoffs are almost here. My favorite thing about the NBA playoffs, the intensity and the strategy. Every game is treated like a must win game even when a team is up threez. every quarter, every half has a new adjustment that you got to really be dialed in to track Oh that guy' guarding that guy now. Why are they doing that? How' the other team going to counter that? It's the chess match that we don't really see quite as much of in the regular season It's dialed up from the opening tip Game one in the playoffs. playayoffs are just awesome in the NBA. You know what else is just as great? openpening up a new bottle of Micolob Bltra. It's refreshing light with only ninety five calories plus is the official beer partner of the NBA. They're giving fans a chance to win courts side tickets, unique prizes and more Miolobltra superior is worth playing for. 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And Steph Castle goes step for step with him kind of gets like one hand on the ball or near Say and forces him to double clutch and take like a lefty lay upp that he releases on the way down and he misses it And it's one of two Transition defense plays by the sppurs to break up two on ones late in the game that is just as clutch of defensive plays it get like he didn't block it. he didn't get a seal. He did just enough to disrupt the lamp. and the other one I have to find the other one. The other one was champagne And it was in the first overtime with three fifteen left one hundred three, one on one spurs Castle through like a wild turnover and it was Caruso and JWub in a two on one and JWub took it to the rim and Champagney, not known as a defender stripped the ball. it went out of bounce off Chets's foot. So it was Spurs ball. I mean two. And you can freeze frrame those two on ones and say should was there spacing right? Should they have passed the ball, but you have in the first one Castle in elite deffendnder stride for stride And on both of them, multiple spurs that are flying back where if you try to make that pass to the wing, they're going to be able to disrupt the shot, but just like sensational all out. falls to the wall. This is what it demands in the Western confonerence fininals and clean plays. Yes I know for a fact, it's Caruso and SGA because I have written in my notes. I can't believe Castle blew up at SGA Caruso two on one He not only got it kind of on the way down, but Steph Castle is so good at this where He's clearly, you know, as a smaller guard, he's going to take the bump and sometimes you're going to actually create separation when you do He'll get bumped back a little bit and he doesn't stay fully vertical. Like he actually does come down with his arm But his hands are so incredible. He manages to do that without fouling. He manages to actually get a strip. He manages to actually bother or get in your line of sight, even when he doesn't have like the textbook perfect execution of that play I in aw Seh Castle. and I think this is one of those games where if you're just looking at the box score, you could probably focus on the eleven assist to eleven turnovers and be like, man, that must have been a really messy game from him. I think it was mostly a pretty messy game for almost everybody. likeike that's just what the standards of defense was. and I will take Maybe not all eleven turnovers, like eight of those eleven turnovers because of plays like this And because of the way they frankly like energize a team, I think the Spurs have this Like a really important thing in their corner, which is playing with Webby emboldens a lot of guys to really go after it in a lot of different ways. I would make the same same argument for Stefan Casso, where you see that guy bust ass back and transition and blow up a play like this And then if you are Julian Schhipip Penny you're thinking Now that's my job too. Now I have to do those things too. I think there's a rising tide effect for all of the Spur's best players, but Castle is like such a charismatic hustler that I think you cannot help but be kind of pulled in his direction Unbelievable plays. It just this is what you want out of a game of this level is everyone playing to exhaustion. And by the way, some of those spurs possessions when they got the lead in overtime You could tell that and they were up four and they're milking the clock a little bit. you can tell Weenby is gased. Like he's hands on knees under the rim and like fiveive on the shot clocks like, All right, I got to go duck in now or I got to move out of the way and he'll move but like these guys were all at the end of the game as one would expect. But for Weny in particular, playing forty nine minutes with this kind of physicality and with play to play focus that these guys have to play with. like This is it would be exhausting to do this for five minutes at a time and to do it as a big with that kind of sustained effort while going to the rim over and over and over Maybe the most understated part of a truly ridiculous Victor Weetminyaman Kight was just the fact that he kind of kept going and the effort after effort after effort that came with it. ninety nine,ars ninety nineents at the end of the fourth quarter eleven and a half seconds left enter the ball to Victor at the nail against J. W. You're like, Oh, I wonder He's going to shoot along to. what's going to happen here? Fs the ball on the floor goes right, spins left, makes a one handed floater with his right hand going the opposite way to put the spurs up to ninety one hundred one ninetine nine, I guess. and you're like, okay, I mean just a fantastic shot. Like what else is there to say And then Say ties it on the other end with three seconds left where they run the double Iverson cut. J D runs one way as J comes the other way, catches it at the left elbow and goes And Victor's on set in the right corner hugged pretty close. And hugged close. and in real time, I thought my brain did say Why is he not helping? I understand that you're in no threes. do you can't give up a three his superpower that he can be everywhere all at once. and they clearly told him Look if they make it two, they make it to, trust Steff Castsel to at least disrupt the shot and it was not an easy layup. Yeah. But but we'll take our chances in overtime. Beautiful play design, but were you were you surprised? he didn't move at all? I mean, I was a little I totally understand why and it ended up being the right call, but I was still a little surprised. I went through the exact same process of like, wow, that is a wide open shot on a night where Shakeil just Alexander has had nothing free and clear, nothing easy And he's just getting all the way to the rim because of that spacing because Wimbi isn't there I think given the chance to kind of legislate all that again the spurs would probably do it the same way and it probably is the smart thing to do It is it was shocking though. and again, I think it speaks to the fact that every other drive, Victor Webinyama is there and the one time when he's not turns out to be a huge play in the game, but it requires an intricate play design. It requires a level of like, we have to respect the shooter in this one particular moment. and unfortunately for the Thunder, I don't know how translatable those things are to the rest of the, you know forty seven ish minutes in a regulation game By the way, Ched H homeomegren eight points in forty one minutes It's not going to cut it in this series. I mean, do you want to talk about him in greater detail now or later? Do you we're going to do we'll do it later. I's a couple more plays that I want us to all remember and luxuriate and please. But one fifty five in the first overtime Carusso makes a switch in a steel in mid aair deflects a pass from Castle to Ebenyama. Yeah just incredible play onene of nineteen he made in the game And JW gets a runout dunk to put the thunder up one hundred six one hundred and five after that Um, JW tririps Viictor Webinyama in the paint. Clean defensive play, Thunder up one They have a two on one and it's AJ Mitchell and I think Ched Holgren And AJ Mitchell pulls up for a three And again, they're up one. there's, it's not like mil in the clock is going to do that much good with a minute and thirty five left And the passast to Chet is going to be contested and somebody' coming behind them. It's it's not as easy. It's not like one of those. I'll just throw the ball in the paint you settled for a three in transition. But I did think and maybe this is my brain being too conservative and I've had this discussion with coaches before. There are some coaches in the NBA Who would have love that shot?ure like Like if we hold it, will'll probably get a contested to fifteen seconds later. That's going to be a harder shot If we take that shot, It's not quite a kill shot, but if it goes in we have Control of the game up four with a minute thirty left. My Mbe my stomach is too old and conservative I It was a little queasy with that shot by AJ. Mitchell. I think part of it is because the Thunder felt so reliant on their threes in this game. Like the Spurs defense was selling out not just with Wemby but with All of the defenders packing the paint, forcing all these other guys to shoot, forcing so many they forced so many positions to go to Aaron Wiggins that Dagonal had to take him out of the game. And it was like, okay, this is not working. We have to find something else here I mean, he they just ignore Aaron Wiggins was in the strong side corner and they treated him like I mean, like a Thompson twin just like go go ahead and shoot and ye By the way, we'll talk about a little bit more about adjustments, but The ESPN box score pooor Isaiah Joe is not even in the ESPN. dot com box score to the point where I woke up and I checked the box score and I was like, wait, did I hallucinate that he was in for one in the game? He played then I checked the NBA dot com box score. He was in for sixteen seconds. They just may need to play more like all shooting everywhere lineups and we'll get to that. but I I'm this game made me so crazy that I literally thought I hallucinated Isaiah Joeines like I was on an LSD trip or something. No. he actually did play. Okay. and then AJ Mitchell misses a three And then we have the wild sequence Spurs get the ball down one Champanne misses a three And Victor Webinyama gets the easiest offensive rebound of his entire life. Sheay is the only one near him and he gets it and He could do any number of things with it. He could put back Dunet. he could bring the ball down and no one other than sh is close to him and go back up in Dunket and maybe get fouled Instead, he tries this like flying one handed, pretty under control, but one handed airborne putick backack tip that misses And I remember being shocked how uncontested it was shocked at his choice, shocked that he missed. And then the ball like bounces around a million times and Caruso throws it off somebody's foot, anotherother Caruso play. But that tip It's just one of many moments from the game where I froze. I was like, what just what just happened? What did he do? Why didn't he dunk it? What's going on in the game I mean, it's I think further proof that all is not lost for the Thunder two. It's like one of those bounces goes a little differently on another Victor Webinyama put backack possession. and all of a sudden, this game doesn't go overtime to begin with. Like there's enough of those that You just need a couple things to go right. Even though it seems like with Victor, nothing can go right for the Thunder right now And then there were after that, there was the Harper and one Yeah that I talked about earlier. I mean Jesus Christ, Dylan Harper Ferocious. Okay, let's get to the big picture stuff Why don't we go here Six games Five one spurs. Thunder have been unable to figure out this defense. we mentioned some of theineups and other things they tried in this game I mean You want to say like, well, there's got to be some adjustment. you know, if Victor's guarding this guy, then you put him in the pick and roll or use him as a ball handler. And it's like Victor's just going to do what Victor wants to do. He's going to be where he wants to be And you really can't control him in that way because if he's on Caruso in the corner, like, yeah, sure, bring Caruso up in the pick and roll. use him as a ballhander. He's a guard. use him as a screen He's just going to say, you take Caruso, I'm going to stay down here And I'm not really sure what tactical adjustments there are for that for a guy like this, but just big picture. the Thunder are not going to win this series if they don't score a little bit more. They're not going to score a lot more because this seems too good. They generated twenty one turnovers last night. That didn't even help them get a good enough offensive rating How can they loosen this up with their offense? I do think some of it is line upp related. I mean, you talked about the shooting I thought the Jared McCain minutes were like a really nice pop for them for exactly this reason. Who can you put on the floor that the sppurs do have to respect and do have to hug a little more tightly to the perimeter? because right now it's basically no one. If you freeze frrame some of these sha possessions where he has the ball at the top if he's not getting te. It's insane. There's There's just swarming him from everywhere. Completely. And even if they're playing back, it's like four guys just outside the paint basically, like playing four corners preventing him from getting anywhere near the rim That's not going to be tenable. Like you have to stretch it out even just a little bit. I thought McCain was good in terms of providing some of that space. alsoso in transition. likeike he's a guy who really goes for it when those opportunities are there Shay' a part of this too I wonder how much of it is just the familiarity of seeing this fully activated version of the Spurs a couple of times, or maybe even one game is enough before he starts kind of reading the floor a little bit differently Um, I found it hard with an optimized television broadcast angle to fully understand sometimes like, oh, is this Is the hard double going to come for She here? Is it going to be that kind of soft looming double where they're gently pressuring him to give up the ball? Is this a quasi like hybrid zone that they're running on this possession, which thes the spurs were mixing in later in the game I can't even imagine to be being in Shay's point of view what that read feels like where you're trying to break down the shell of the defense and also Victor behind it It's a lot. And I thought even for someone who had, you know, what twelve assist four turnovers in this game did a lot to kind of spur the playmaking, I pardon the pun along as the thunder went through this thing But he has to be able to kind of parse what is happening a little more cleanly. And that's the kind of thing that just it happens with experience. It happens with film. It happens with even though they did play five times in the regular season, All of those games had weird caveats where Wey was coming off the bench or guys were injured or AJ Mitchell was out. It's like there wass always something happening and it's like, okay, now everyone is full strength. What do the pictures of the game look like to you on a play by play basis? And I think Shay's just going to have to be a little cleaner in the that he reads them And he's good I think it was seven of twenty three and I'll talk about how those shots are a lot of them are very contested and the spurs are making some of his pet shots much more difficult than usual. Yes. But on a very basic level He's going to have to make more of the clean shots that he gets and last night, you know, there were three or four bs like I mean that's as clean as it as it's going to get. There was a floater and overtime, I think with like three hundred and thirty left where he got in there pretty clean and it was a good look and he usually makes it. There was the layup we talked about. There were like there was a wide open like six footer off of I think want to say it was an Alex Caruso pass and it's just like That's all That's as much of a gimmy as you're going to get and he was just just enough off his rhythm all night that he couldn't hit it. Yeah, not all twenty three of his shots are super difficult Spurs contested shots. Let's say there are five that are pretty clean by Spurs defense standards. He was one of five and he needs to be three of four or four of five. in these games But to your point about the shooting, and I think that's what sit out to me is You know, I remember saying in the regular season after the Christmas game with Kirk, I think on the pod that this is not a great D matchup. Like if he's not going to guard Weemby a lot and he guarded him a little bit in this game This is a quickness based sppurs team and not a power based sppurs team in the back quarter. I mean, they have power, but they're they have both frankly And there's just not a great likeike he guarded fox a lot in the regular season a Dorking guard anybody. He's very good It's a tough Dort series. And if you're going to go all shooting all the time, the minutes, the guys who suffer minutes wise is are going to be Dort and, you know, Wiggins maybe and there's just not that many other choices, but more McCain Joe might have to play U Wh else suffers in this in this equation? Maybe Hardenhein even more? Like ye you Caruso Caruso's making his shots and is too valuable I think too valuable defensively even when he does it. and really the argument to keep playing Lou Dor any significant amount is just kind of like, you can't play Alex Caruso every minute, You can't play Caysason Wallace every minute. And especially if you're going to start smaller, which the Thunder mightight in game to Dord is going to have to play a semi significant role, I would think, even still. Other than that, like tactically I mean, I guess if they're going to load up on Say like that There's got toa be stuff you can do, you know, flare screens, cuts, you know, a little bit more juice and variety now that you've seen it once, but like that's all It's not like that's rocket science. L like the spurs haven't seen that kind of stuff before. and Yeah, I don't, I mean, it's it's just hard to score against this guy And there was a sequence by the way, back to back possessions, I think in the middle of the fourth quarter You know, S Shay has made made a meal out of Dead zone baseline long to. That's that's his pet shot And there was a back to back sequence in the fourth quarter. that's like, man, this is what this series is going to be about on the first one, he get he beat he got a switch and he's he's hunting like the weaker spurs forer defenders like Keldeon Johnson, Julian Champ andy guys you just can't stay with him even if his cell a little bit. which is smart. And then he's using that either to ISO or then go into pick and roll with a weaker guy I me and he got somebody and he isOed and he went down to the left baseline And you think it's going to be a clean look. Wendby's over in the opposite corner, but he's tiptoeing over the entire time. And by the time Shake gets to that spot Wemby is there and on this particular posession is when he blocked it on the right was the right baseline Rather he blocked it And that was like a holy shit block. I mean, that shot doesn't get blocked It sure as hell doesn't get blocked by a guy who started the possession in the opposite corner And it's you think it's the kind of block that If you're shay, even Arguably the best player in the world, two time MP 's in your head all the time. likeike, o, that guy did that. And on like the very next under possion left side of the floor sameame spot. he gets there. thenen he backs it out and Wenby just sort of stays in a zone on that side of the floor a little bit below Shay and Shay rev up and actually gets by him for a layup and makes the layup. An absolutely sensational play. Imagine you just get blocked by this monster on your favorite shot. Yep. And on the next possession, you go for the favorite shot again and he's there it out and you assess your options and you decide I guess the best thing I could do is just drive right at the eight foot wingspan and h fast enough to sneak this way up off the glass before he gets it. And he did, but downhot is just like It's super hard for him in this series. I mean, that's what it's going to be. like yeah, we can talk about the tactical adjustments, the lineup changes. I do think a lot of it is just going to be tightening up. It's going to be you know In game one, you can throw out eleven guys and see who works and then you kind have to kind of cinch the rotation as you go. But it's going to have to be shame making NVP level shots against an MVP level opponent, meeting him where he is. and it's not all going to be easy. evenven if he does convert a couple of those open looks, relatively open looks He's going to have to do the contested stuff too I also like I was so striking watching the Thunder try to attack Wemy. How many drives were like half drives where they would not just like kick the ball out, but straight up as you're saying, like Back it out, just full reverse, kill your dribble, pivot, look for some desperation pass to save you to reset the offense. They don't really have even their usual drive and kick flow because of WenB. It's so much like we have to abort this drive and go completely back to the drawing board of the possession. And if they can get anything resembling their usual rhythm, I think it's going to help the shooters as much as anybody. Like the cadence of the offense is a little bit off right now I do wonder and Chris Finch talked about this in the last series Part of it is You just have to go at him a little bit more than you think you do at the basket. Chris Finch talked about this several times. likeike I just want us to go at him. And if we miss, we miss And Carusso had a pick and pop three that he passed up and drove into Wemby and finished a layup over him J. Dub drove atam similarly from the left wing on a three that he passed up and drove into him and missed, but there was an offensive rebounding opportunity behind that miss. And I think that's like if you drive him and get him out of the way, and you crash with some tactical precision, you might be able to get some stuff. And Dord got an offensive rebound when Victor was on him and decided like, oh, if you're just going to ignore me this is one way I can actually punish you for this and he got a three out of it. And I think maybe that's part of it I mean, the two guys, you mentioned you wanted to talk about Set. So just talk about Set two of seven took seven shots and two free throws in forty one minutes And Mitchell took five shots and no free throws. thirty four minutes points combined I mean, obviously, that's not That's not going to get it done. likeike how can they get When you watch Ched who's not being guarded by Weby, who's being guarded by wings, but weembbe's always lurking. like How can we what can you do to loosen it up This is a tough one where I don't know that there's an easy answer. and it's in part because I think The reason the sppurs are so good at neutralizing him is they take away all of his easy stuff, right? Like anything around the basket, Wby is there and clearly in Chet's head and the hesitations from Chet when he does get an offensive rebound, including on that possession that Devin Visll blocked that was basically the dagger, like you can see Chet pause for like a very brief moment. likeike I want to collect this ball. I want to go up strong. like I need I need to come correct or else this is going to get blocked And that hesitation is ultimately what dooms him Everything around the basket is not there. Like the dump off passes are not there. The big to big Isaiah Hartenstein to chet like pick and roll loobs, connecting passes are not there. All of the offensive rebounds are that much tougher. So all of the easy stuff inside is not there And then I think what's the icing on the cake for the sppurs in that matchup is All of the mid range stuff that Ched has kind of gradually worked into his game over the last couple of seasons, like the little kind of drive and turn aroundound He straight airballed one of those over a Webby contest. He got blocked. That's right. I want to say he got blocked on another one and then also Even if you want to say, okay, those all those things are taken away, att least Ched Holgren still a really good three point shooter The Spurs are one of the best close out teams in the league He got blocked on just like a spot up three and this is a seven footer out there who just because I want to say it was maybe Julian Champanne, who closed out had enough time and could do so aggressively with oneB behind him Like you can just kind of take away every Every piece of like bread and butter that Chet relies on to score. And I don't know what the tactical like way to open those things back up because some of them are so match up specific in terms of what it means to have Weeny out there that I think it's just going to be hard for Ched no matter what you move around agreed and look, I mean, again, this is And incredible def both these teams are incredible defensive teams and they have answers for everything. They're going to try to O Champagne. I said this on Bill's Pod Sunday. I just want to reiterate it again. You just can't overstate how significant a midseason adjustment it was for Mitch Johnson to pull Harrison Barnes from the starting five and put Julian Champanney A journeyman undecorated former two way guy, whatever.ecorated in some places, Zag. I think if blogs still existed, well, Julian Champanny would be a blogger hero. That's true. But still, I mean it's not like Harrison Barnes was playing badly. He had started to swumamp and leakue o a little bit after playing a lot of minutes early and obviously he's older Julian Champani makes you a little smaller, maybe a little bit more defensively challenged, but it was just a signal to the league like We're not going to give you a safe place to put your centers anymore. and we're going to make you defend us straight up and honestly, and Julian Champanney I mean If you had said before the season, he's going to play forty four minutes. in a Western confference finals game. I think you would have probably been a little surprised by that and he is every bit ready for it. Yes. he'll have a game in this series too where he hits like five threes. likeike it's coming. He'll have those like drug test level three point shooting performances and He's so critical to their formula because of the spacing he provides, but also because even though he is among the most defensive challenge players that they actually rely on in their rotation, certainly in the starting lineup. The baseline for him is still significantly higher than the liability in the starting five on most teams. like he's holding down a spot. He's doing his job. You don't trust him to guard J Dov necessarily, but you can trust him to do like a role within a team scheme Um just ye, you're right, the three point the three point shooting bonanza game is coming from him. at some point Allright. G shit I do wonder Um defeensively like again, just the Thunder were good enough to win the game I do wonder if Chet on Champanne is the right choice for this series. And I've been wondering that all season. I remember after the Christmas game saying Should he just guard Weemby? like are they over arere they overthinking this? And I don't know if that's the answer because it's not like, you know, that makes life any easier, but it could make your pick and roll defense a little bit more traditional on these Weemby screens. By the way, Weemby set forty five ball screens last night, mostost in any game ever for him. his prior high was thirty two Now obviously this is a double overtime game more minutes all that. even per hundred possessions, screens per hundred possessions, this was his highest game ever. So clearly they're leaning into this. And they scored according to the genius IQ, second spectrum, whatever tracking data one point two points directly out of those plays one point three points per possession. and at least that would simplify it. or Do you try him on Castle? That's the only other safe place in the starting five really not it's not safe. Castle has really like defeated that scheme over and over. Yeah. But if he's on Champenney can't really roam as effectively because he's on the best or second best shooter on the floor for the other team And the spurs God several open or semi open cornner threes because hes he's straying a little bit too far off Champenny or Visll in the corners. And again, their defense wasn't the problem, the Thundnderers defense, but I do wonder curious where we will see Chet. in game two. Yeah I agree with you that Champany is not a great place for him. There aren't great options. I think part of the reason they're keeping him out of that Weby matchup is because especially when Carusoos out there, the Thunder do feel very comfortable having like the JW Caruso switch if they need to. Mbe you don't want to every time but you have the option. it's available. What's the point of putting wings There's a multiple reasons people get their wings on Weby. One of them is if we have another wing and we can just switch your best pick and roll com, but they're beating that switch with the over the top entry passes over and over again complepletely. And so I think the question is like, would Chet be any more successful fronting in some of those situations or would you even want him to? orr just having the kind of even looming possibility that he could break up the lib from Behind Valuable in that way I also like You know, we saw Hardenstein start on st like Stefan Castle as many Spurs opponents have done with their bigigs. I'm still a little confused why if Harper is available in the lineup, teams aren't trying the same thing with Dylan Harper, who to me Like you can argue about who's the better shooter. I think Dylan Harper is a much more reluctant three point shooter. He doesn't want to take the early shot when it swings to him out on the perimeter for three. like he wants to probe, he wants to attack. It's one of the best parts of his game. I think there is a possibility you could put Ched on him in select situations and live with some of the drives, try to contain that action otherwise, but especially if they're going to be playing smaller, I think you could move some stuff around and try to be creative with it, but Champanne is probably not the best spot to start Well and again It should be mentioned. Fox missed the game. We don't know if he's going to play in game two That changes a lot of things in terms of the Spurs rotation. And if he misses game two, one of the things that would I would like the Spurs to do as much as possible is When Weemby rests and by the way Weby and Shay are resting at the same time. Yeah I don't I wonder what the reason for that is. I wonder if it's Dagnolt signaling, I don't think we can score against WenB without Shay on the floor. So we need to like almost attach them to each other. So you read it as WenB's coming out Say is the is the adjustment to Wy coming out versus. I mean, the opposite could be true too, no That's true I don't know. We'll see what the patterns are, but I like down when Wemy rests and those cornet minutes were the funder won those minutes I want the sppurs if Fx I want thepurs have two of their ball handling guards on the floor when Weby's not on the floor because I don't want the offense to stall out, but that's Um, I guess we'll see what happens. tryrying to think. anythingthing else on this game before we move on. I mean, my God. Oh the other thing is like The sppurs have really And I think this is a story around the league Like when I watch the Spurs in particular and they run these staggered screens and they run these castle picking rolls and talked about how Harper doesnt want to shoot early Thes. Castle is willing to do it and his made in the playoffs. I'm like, man these teams cannot get under these screens. And I think the sppurs have devised lots of ways to make it really hard to set up your defense and prepare to get under a screen. Castle' obviously a be swar. if you do go under, he can just power through you and score Harper can to But I think league wide offenses have gotten really like we're far from the days where every team would just go under on Ray Joon Rondo and it was like the Celtics couldn't do anything about it and it was just it like it's really offenses have really matured in scheme to like it's hard to get under these picks tempting as you want to say, well, just go under, just go under. like sometimes just can't do it The Rondo comparison, I think is a great point and it's To me, one of the reasons why watching this game, which is obviously like a great playoff game, a great game of basketball But it was great in ways that felt so different from a twenty ten's game from a two thousands game, from a nineties game. like this felt so modern and distinct in terms of the matchup play in terms of the defenses, in terms of the way that everything was evolving and changing shape to deal with Weny as it went. And I think part of the reason those pick and rolls are so hard to guard too for this firsturse is like Wimby has really improved as a screener in terms of the contact he makes. And I think part of it is the understanding, especially in a game like this, like you talked about just the volume of ball screens he was setting All of that was in a lot of cases just like preamble to like how do we get Victor Webinyama close to the basket period? Not to hit him on the roll necessarily, but like if he's going to try to walk or run to the rim, Ale Alex Grusa is going to draw like three more charges on him. He's also picking him up basically when he crosses half court and just like body bumping him and hand checking him the whole way as you should do to wear down a big when you're guarding him as a small. And so it's like that is the clean release where Wimby gets to just like Get a little closer to the rim, reset the offense, get those entry passes we were talking about And the fact that the sppurs execute that stuff with All of the patience and precision that they do for a bunch of like twenty year olds and twenty two year olds out there who are making this work is just phenomenal. Like I really can't say enough about Ultimately the discretion of the way that the sppurs are playing right now, starting with Wby and the shots he's willing to take it not, but also the guards too Again, don't harpers twenty And he had twenty four points. only shot eight of twenty only quote unquote Sven of thirteen on Tues. That's great to have a twenty year old Combo guard pointint guard, whatever you want to call him in a game against the best defense in the NBA the number one turnover forcing team in the NBA with a bullet gets you six assists and seven steals and commit one turnover is just audacious stuff from a rookie guard to win to have him win you that part of the possession game his part of it. That dramatically, forcing seven live ball turnovers and committing one turnover total is crazy.uts. go we could go for two hours on this series fair. let's take a quick break. and we'll get more chances to do it. Let's take a quick break and then we'll finish up with some others. This summer, Fandu is the best place to bet on goals. includluding equalizers. Uuh followers. Yeahep, headters. Every goal is worth more on Fan So let there be both. New customers get three hundred and fiftyion bonus bets guaranteed when you bet five dollars for seven days. twenty one plus in presents and select states. First online real money wager only, minimum five dollars wager required for seven consecutive days. five dollarars first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus betets, which expires seven days after receivt. restestrictions applies, see full terms at famoolot com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem call one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred my reset This episode is brought to you by Nas Energy Every ounce of dirt sweat and gears, every checkered flag and trophy raised, every lap, every race, every hard fought place They're all jammed inside every can of NASA energy performance energy for burning the midnight oil in the garage and pedal to the metal human horsepower For the streets, go ahead, crack open a can of Nas energy and get after it All right, I am headed to the world's most famous arena for game one. There's another series going on. Nicks are playing the Cavaliers in the Etern confonerence fininals and today's Nick' Cabs preview is presented by State Farm. Whether it's ball or life, nothing beats a great game plan. It's like a world class coach drawing up an inbound place. State Farm is there to draw up the right plan for you and help you get the personalized coverage for whatever comes your way, but more on that later for now. I'm here to assist you with the playoffs. and so is Rob Bahoney. Nick Kads By the skin of their teeth, the cads are here two, seven gamame series wins. It's the Donovan Mitchell Ball The road not taken for the Nicks, a rematch between Jayail and Brunson and Donvan Mitchell after the twenty twenty two playoffs between the jazz and the Mads, which changed the course of history for those franchises and those players. The Nicks signed Jail and Brunson and then did not. give the jazz everything they wanted for Dondan Mitchell. The cavs did. And the Nicks then used a lot of those assets on Mcaill Bridges who will be guarding Dono Mitchell. for a lot of this series Let's just be quick because this game is tonight. I think The Nicks are favored I'm going to pick the Nixon six to win the series. sameame. U And I just think they're rolling in adobe is healthy And They can put two of Bridges An anob and heart on Minchell and Harden. they can put the third of them on Mobli and switch all the pick and rolls of Mobly. can be on Jared Allen The cabs are going to attack cat relentlessly in the pick and roll. They've really gotten smart about that and Cats foul trouble always looms as an issue. They're going to hunt Brunson. Um You know, the Kicks are well versed in that. Brunson will headedge against Donovan Mitchell and honestly like I would at least if I were to experiment with Let's see if James Harden can actually do damage against Jayen Brunon on a switch because he really couldn't get by Duncan Robinson but obviously. He's obviously bigger than Jay and Brunson, but Jalen Brunson is not easy to bully. And And on the other end of the floor when the Kicks have have the ball I do think the cals in the last regular season game they played, which is the only one with Harden The only one after the trade deadline. I do think They found some answers really for not the first time, but for they they've been up and down against the next last couple of years, But they put Dan Wade on Jail and Brunson Jared Allen hit on Josh Hart and Evan Mobbley guarded Kat and they switch the Brunson Cat two main game, which has been killing teams and you know, they don't put their centers on Kat. They put their centers on Josh Hart And that kind of worked for them. But that gets to question number one is like is Dean Wade even starting this series or are they now all in with Max Strus starting? And can you duplicate that with Strus on Bruces? And so some interesting matchup Options I'm going to go Nix and six. I just trust the way they're playing a little bit more What do you think of this? Where do you want to start? I also think Nixon six. I mean, I do think Strs can replicate a lot of that effect. We saw him I mean just pick up Kate Cunningham in game seven in terms of what he can do as an all ball defender. I think he can hang with Brunson at least to a reasonable degree My issue is almost more like How are you taking away and how are you coming up with answers in whole clloth that are new because the Nick offense has completely evolved since the last time these two teams met. and So much of it to me is about that Josh Hart matchup. And if Kat is going to be making plays from the high post How are you cheating away from heart to gum up some of what the Kicks have at their disposal as a result I think that matchup still makes sense with Mobiley on Kat, Jared Allen in that helper spot. But you could also toggle it. You could flip those guys if you wanted if you thought there was any benefit to it. But Mobiley has to be really disruptive in a totally different way than he was in these previous series. Like he and Allen both answered the call with their physicality with playing with force. they both have had tremendous moments in these playoffs But now he's going to have to be like the primary point of attack defender for the hub of the Kicks offense. And that's something that we haven't really seen him do a lot of, but I'm eager to see what he's made of in that way Yeah. and then and to your like similarly to Castle, Josh Hart is basically more or less won that schematic battle. If you put your centers on him, he's made enough threes. he's made enough plays out of the pick and roll as the screener. He crashes for offense rebounds. he beats the hell out of you in transition just flying ahead of your guys. But yeah, well, and again, the N offense is run differently Um than it was in the regular season. They've just found a new gear, a new level of creativity. but Some things remain true. The Brunson cat two manain game and they run it in a lot of different ways is deadly and step one against the Nick you've got to make that hard for them. and I think the cats can do that Conversely Whenever the they've gotten much better about this. whenever the center on the other team is stuck on cat, they just go right to that two man game and he gets open threes or drives to the rim U or whatever The uh You know, it's always been a good Mitchell Robinson matchup. He just eats them alive on the glass. And so that's next factor. and I think they can play both of the bigs together a little bit more in the series if they want. Um And the other answer I do think the recognition you were talking about with cat and opposing centers is to me, like very emblematic of why the Kicks have been so good lately They're just picking up on things so fast and they feel so dialed in into like what are our matchups? what are the triggers? Like when do we need to go to these specific actions versus If you watch them in like January and February, They were searching all the time. It was like, how do we get Michuel Bridges going again? Is OG An andobbe happy with his touches? L it never felt settled in terms of the flow of the offense. And to me, that's one of the big differences between these two teams is the calves still have even for as well as they played and certainly the way they kind of took over the series against the pistons late They have like some lag time in their decision making. likeike Donvan Mitchell can do incredible things. James Harden can solve great for scoring performances takes them a minute to figure out like, oh, this is how we need to adjust. And the N I mean, against all odds. They've been one of the best teams in the playoffs. They've been one of the deepest and most balanced teams in the playoffs. And I found they' just been one of the most reactive teams in terms of the minute to minute adjustments of what playoff basketball is. They have been ready for it from the jump. L when you when you make an adjustment defensively They are ready with the counter on the very first possession. They they read it and say, Ohh yeah, we're re We plan for this. We're doing. it's not two possessions. It's not three possessions. There is no waste of time. They came out with a ruthless calculated game plan right away against the sixixers. Like they wasted no time or're putting him beat in every pick and roll. They were ready there this playoffs has been a really great coaching job by Mike Brown in his staff. and I expect that to continue. The one lever they have that they haven't really had to pull and they tried it a little bit against the cabs is If the cab's defense starts to give them some issues, Do they go with the super shooting lineups where everybody on the floor can shoot three? So there's no heart and there's no Robinson and probably no Alvarado who can shoot threees, but is a little reluctant. We haven't seen a lot of that, but with Shamet working his way back into the rotation, I would assume That's on the table for them Um You know, and the cads the cads to your point they are they have proven themselves as mayaybe not as cleanly and rapidly as you would like But they're good problem solvers. And if you let them worm their way into a series, they're going to find some ways to puncture your defense. They're going to find some things that work. They're going to find some rotation wrinkles like more Sam Merril, more Strus, whatever. Um, Dave It hasn't been pretty, but they just want to game seven on the road by a million points. They came back from two beat the pistons four out of five. And as ugly as it looks sometimes for them can't be emphasized enough like They did play two of the five best defenses in the NBA by the numbers. like it's not easy to play against those teams. They are going to make you look old and ugly and ragged at times if you're James Harden in particular. And the Nicks were, I think the seventh best defense in the regular season. so it doesn't get that much easier. and for the cads, but I just trust what the Kicks are doing right now and an Obe full go and practice. He's been as good as pretty much anybody in the playoff so far. just say. By the way, one thing I would like from the cats, this is a little bit in the weeds. And it could be useful in this series. They were running these staggered screens a lot in the regular season using Moby and Alen as as screeners together and they were really like v up what they would do out of it. L so if Allen was the first screener in the stagger and Mobbley was the second, sometimes Mobli would slip like the second guy would slip before the first screen is even used and it was like a very smart way to leverage the skills of their big men and they have kind of gone away from that and gotten slower and more predictable. I think I think they need to dial the general creativity factor up if they want to win this series I think they absolutely should. And I mean, would that kind of stuff would be a great counterpoint to what you mentioned earlier as far as like if the Kicks do challenge James Harden to beat guys one on one, That's the sort of matchup that kind of kind of like bog down the offense, even if it's successful. So you have to work in those wrinkles. You have to get the misdirection going. I think it's even more effective with the level of spacing they've been playing with Struus and Merrill out there. Like those guys actually do with their movement and with their gravity stress out defenses pretty significantly. Binger dot com Spotify slash Spotify podcast listener, Sam Merrill. shhout out Sam Merrill Cabs have to win the free throw battle as they did against the pistons rather decisively since they've gotten hard and they become free throw machines. And interestingly, both teams defenses allow lots of threes. The Kicks allowed the second most threerees in the league, the cabs the eighth most. Can they direct those threes to the places they want them to go? Who makes thes One of the things, I think the pistons fell into this trap occasionally. I'm interested in your thoughts on this Dia This is always one of the interesting tests on defense. the degree of reaction to Evan Moby popping for an open three. simimilar to like MBed. I thought the pistons overreacted a little bit sometimes. I understand like hes shot it okay in the playoffs There were a few possessions in the last couple of games in that series whereere they over rotated to a Mobli wing three And yeah, they snuff that out and it ends up in like a Merril or Stuusce corner three. I'm like, I would just I don't want to over I got to make him make a lot of shots before I start going a little too crazy on that. I think it's one of the hardest things about playoff basketball. and it was one of the most jarring things to watch with Alex Carusso last night was just like the Spurs were just gonna to live with those shots. and they were going to try to contest them a little better, but you just have to commit to it if you're gonna do it Moby's not getting that kind of leeway, like that kind of opening. You're still going to contest. you're still going to respect the shot to a degree I'm with you that I don't want I don't want to overreact to it, especially because To Evan Mobbley's credit, I think over the last season and change, he's really improved as a decision maker in terms of how quickly he will get rid of the ball. If you do come at him pretty aggressively, like hisis short role playmaking has been one of the best avenues for the cavs offense in these playoffs and his willingness to make quick good decisions out of those closeouts is like another good like source of consistent offense. And so Not only do you want to make him make the shot to prove that he's actually like, you know a better than average three point shooter, which it kind of depends on the day when you catch him. But you just don't want to put the ball in the hands of an even better shooter who he will get it to very, very quickly these days So we both think Nicks and S Nicks go to the finals for the first time since nineteen ninety nine Crazy to think about, but They feel like a team that is just like Even if you take this thing away, they have all these other options. Even if you think you have this advantage, their depath has really come through for them. like Duce McBride could have an amazing series. Lander Shamot could have an amazing series. They just have like what six guys shooting better than forty percent from three right now. It's it's it's it's such a like you put your finger in the damn kind of defensive premise with them I really don't know what the calves are supposed to do and that is a matchup where I'm I'm struggling to even just like conjure the vision of what a calves's win in this series looks like I think they're Svvy enough that I don't think it will be a short series. No. Yes. they are under even Clarkson has come off the bench in the last couple months after being banished and played better defense, made better passes. like he's been All right, Nixs and six, I guess is what we're going with. Today's Nick Cab's preview was presented by state Farm, State fararmers here with agents and easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app to help set you up with personalized coverage that fits your life and budget. like a good neighbor. State Farm is their coverage options are selected by the customer, price and eligibility V by state. Okay. raapid fire, Rob Mahoney, let's do winners and losers from the playoffs so far. I will give you some rapid fire ones that don't need to be elaborated on too much. Okay And I'm going heavy on losers because as my daughter says, I'm a pestimist. She calls me a pestemist because I am a pest and a pessimist Jail and Duran Yeah And on the lower scale Mark Williams and the just the center restricted free agents, it iss going to be rough I mentioned the R rockets and the Hawks, Stefan Castle and the experience. Bye. The Celtics team extreme, ignoring the rim and all of that, I think was exposed a little bit as a weakness And then my other last loser is the GMs who are anonymously whining about lottery reform removing a vehicle for them to takeank. The whining has some basis in A legitimate fear of are we being trapped? our teams going to be trapped into sure Um badness or mediocrity, some teams have already been trapped by their own doingoing in such states I do I just I do think the tanking severity of the tanking problem as it may be because of the draft gone to outweigh the fear of that particular that particular fear And there are ways to tweak the three to one proposal to make it a little friendlier to the worst teams or a little less punitive to the three worst teams, maybe I think we've arrived at a chance at a time where it's worth trying and I sto I just don't think you can whine about how horrible the tanking is and also whine about how impossible it's going to be to climb out of the bottom and out of both sides of your mouth I have u One more loser and one winner that I want to get to, but giveim me a rapid fire, a couple Robahoney picks Here's some losers. Anthony Edwards, not because he's not great, not because he didn't play through injury and I thought played pretty well under the circumstances, but like Ant is amazing. And yet can you imagine the wolves playing with the kind of focus and precision that the sppurs and the Thunder still did. And so to be an ascendant star in a time where like This does increasingly feel like Viictor Webinyama's world has to be frustrating, an unfortunate circumstance for him. And I think the wolves just have so many decisions. They need to make it's kind of a tough time to be annt withithin the Celtics, I want to sling a lot Derek White as a loser specifically We all can I can't allow that on the sp. I know I know I mean it hurts my soul a little bit. I love Dererek White. I love his game. It didn't go great. We all do. If you don't crack forty percent from the field and it gets worse in the playoffs and you can't shoot And at the same time, you're a guard who's getting older and entering into a different stage of your career, I just think we all need to be prepared for the fact that Derek White just might not be an impact scorer in any significant way going forward. And maybe this is like hisis Andre Iguidala, but more of an offball defender and not a stopper kind of era. I wasn't prepared for this level of emotional reaction. Sorry and sadness, Rob, that I didn't sleep enough to digest what you just said Um That hurt me a little bit. on the wolves couple of things. It's it's it's a thing on Always a thing on Twitter after a game like last night where there's just sort of like what are you supposed to do if you're one of these other teams in the West? And I saw someone smart tweet. I can't remember who was like, you know, and we've talked about this before like Do you do you try to we talked about this what it looked like the Thunder were the the seventy five wind juggernaut and like the only target. But now there are two targets. Yeah. And we talked about like do you try to time your ascendancy to, you know when the apron maybe forces them to make some tough financial decisions. And by the way, they've got at least another year before they have to do that Um And I just don't think you can and the wolves would be a great example of that. L do we take a step back now, try to get some assets and go for it in four years I just don't think with some exceptions depending on where you are as a team, but not the wolves I don't think you can think like that because you have an apex superstar. You have a very good team that's going to look different next year one way or another But like we've seen we've learned this lesson over and over again. injuries happen. windows close faster than you think or they close for one season and reopen the next. You just can't think that way. You just have to keep going for it and say like look 're going to be underdogs, fine. We'll see what happens in the playoffs alsoso Mark Laurie and Alex Rodriguez, just every minute of their day now should be devoted to pushing the NBA to expand as fast as possible so they can get that the Wes conference because that's the other solution. It's a great road for them. But like I think this is one of those things where everything you're saying is right. You cant I don't think you should get too cute about the timing of your team and basically any respect,re just kind asking one of those unforeseen variables to a fit to your team, and then all of a sudden you're like a ten year rebuilding cycle But like if you were watching this game last night and you didn't If it didn't feel like the NBA was changing, I fear you're not paying attention. Like that felt like a hallmark moment in the direction of the shape of the league And it felt like something that again, even though we all suspected, This is Viicttor Webonyama's world. I think we now have pretty hard confirmation that that is indeed the case. Yeah, we do. That was terrifying. And the wolves just experienced that and they won two games against the sppurs. One game wheny was five of seventeen and did not play well by his own admission. and the other game he elbowed N read in the head because he felt like and he was mad and he got ejected from the game. It's hard to beat them when he plays. there now thirty eight and three. in their last forty one games in which one B plays at least fifteen minutes. thirty eight And three That would put you on pace for the greatest record in the history of the sport. That's not bad. One of my losers to that effect was Julius Randall and me for prematurely banging the gavel and saying that the wolves had won the cat trade back when Julius Rando was playing well and Tone D Vincenzo was playing well and Kat was in the middle of yet another cat existential crisis Boy was I wrong about that? Just don't have a gavel. Don't bang the gavel. These trades go back and forth multiple times. But Julius Randall Four times in the playoffs And you thought maybe he had turned the corner last year with a really inspiring playoff run neck and neck with Ant is like the best guy on the walls. Yeah. And just for the third time in four playoffs, a complete dud where his scoring falls off a cliff sixteen a game on thirty nine percent shooting, twenty four percent on three, even more damning thirty four assists to thirty four turnovers in the conference semis against the Spurs. nine assists to eighteen turnovers, thirteen points a game, nineteen percent thirty three million dollars next year thirty five million dollars player option to you after that. The wolves are right up against the tax before resigning Iod Dumu, which would take them probably over the first apron I don't know what they're going to do. Gulbert had a bad series against oney just like was played off the floor during his minutes. U they got some tough choices to make. They were in somehow the honest thing at the trade level and I'm sure they'll try to get back in it. I don't really know how that works, how they get the draft assets to really do it And by the way, the Nicks and the cabs were potentially ononest teams if they both advanced far enough to get out of that derby and just say we're good where we are He was one of my One of my he is he is the main los for me. Do you have any more before I get to my last winner? I mean, corresponding winner for Carl Anthony Towns who as we've alluded to recalibrated his entire game in the process. I think like kind of become a New York icon or a Nicks icon. And at the same time has Wolves fans longing for the days when Kat was a part of their team. It's like He's just becoming increasingly beloved and also has just been playing with his head on his shoulders for an entire playoff run, which I never thought I would see frankly. So an incredible time for Kat So I wrote a piece for ESPN maybe two seasons ago about Kat having turned the corner in the playoffs. was either twenty three or twenty four. And I think it started in twenty three when they lost to the nuggets in the first round. and the nuggets called it the toughest series we faced on our way to the title was for one You know, McDanios didn't play punch the wall, N Read was hurard, all that and Kat had a shaky first two games and then like Games three, four, five K of turned the corner. and then the next year got off to that start against Phoenix. They swept Phoenix in the first round with Durant and all that And I wrote about how he had turned the corner in the playoffs because before that, you're right. Remember that Memphis Minnesota series where he was constantly in foul trouble. Yeah. like not even involved in the offense a lot and you were like, what's going on And he's been in foul trouble a lot for the Kicks so far, but He's deffending at a Basically career best level, I think, across the board making good decisions and just like if he can stay out of foul trouble I think the storyline you're talking about where he becomes kind of a beloved Nick will will continue And I think they should win this series. My last winner And I just don't want to leave him totally in the rear view It's been a while now since we've seen these guys play Scottty Barnes Averaged twenty four points, eight and a half assists, eight and a half assists Six rebounds Almost three stocks. ty one percent shooting thirty eight percent on threes fifty four percent on Tues. defefended everybody. first it was Evan Mobbley, then it was like actually, we need you to defend James Harden and Donovan Min denied them the ball.'s crazy. Dispiriting losts for Toronto in some ways, but no quickly the whole series. Yeah. No Ingram the last half of the series. They damnar almost won it. And I think they come out of that series feeling like Yeah, we have a franchise guy. likeike this guy's going to be an all NBA guy someday And probably soon if he doesn't make it this year U He's borderline this year. I think he has a chance given the injuries, but He's ascending to become and and like the threes the threes were hit or miss, right? Like he doesn't take very many His mid range to looked like a legit playoff like this is a good failafe kind of shot, particularly against smaller guys. I just saw he had an outstanding two way series for them. I want to give a l up. That's all compleompletely deserving. I mean, there are portions of that series where Toronto's best offense was just like Scotty Barnes runs super hard in transition and he's such a terror to cross match with that if you're a small who steps in his way, he' just going to literally dunk on you. seeeeing him play We knew who he could be defensively after this regular season. He's clearly like an ascending defensive talent, really singular player on that side of the floor But seeing his offense come together where he has some of the facilitation, some of the spacing with the shooting But more importantly, like the force of his scoring, I felt more cutely than ever. And so for the Raptors, I agree with you, it's its own heartbreak to lose a series like that. But to come out of this year with Scottty Barnes on the rise, Colin Murray Boyles like really establishing himself in terms of his role within the franchise That's a huge win. likeike that is that is a great season and a great kind of resolution to come out of it with. All right, Rob Mahoney. when's the next group chat We got group chat tomorrow night, which I guess will be after us you know, sppurersed under game two. I can't wait God I need to take a nap again before that game And you wrote last week. What did you write? I read it? S something drove you out of writing retirementst TV world. What was it? Let me tell you it was Dylan Harper. Dylan Harper, That's right. That's If anyone can move me in the game right now, weirdly enough, it's Dyan Harper, who's like the most pragmatic player in basketball, but also somehow does things. I'm like I literally don't know how that worked. I don't know how you went one on four on a fast break and got a wide open layout out of it. Here we are twenty years old Rob Mahoney, you're the best. I will talk to you soon, listen to him on group chat and prerestige TV and all that. Thank you, sir Thanks, E That's it for today. I'm headed out to the world's most famous arena for game one of the Eastern confonference Fals. Thank you to Rob Mahoney for waking up early and for his time in insight on a whopper of a game one last night in Oklahoma City. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy and Jonathan on production and to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Low S showow. We will be back Thursday morning after game two of this series. God only knows what's in store Come listen to that one and we'll see you soon. Thanks again twenty one over in President select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or eighteen and over in Presidenton in DC, Kentucky, O Wyoming gambling problem. Call one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred My reset. Call one eight eighty eight seven hundred eighty nine seven seven seven seven or visit ccpG dot org slash chat in Connecticut or isisit MD gamblinghelp dot orga in Maryland. 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