Surveillance Detection and Personal Security

This episode is brought to you by Starbucks. That is fire. Whoa, that's good. This might be the drink of the summer. Okay, I like this one too. I'm not with you, o? Try it for yourself. Starbucks refreshherers concentrates are coming home. Find them in the coffee aisle and make it yours. Today's guest is an author. He's a speaker He's a former CIA officer who's also known for being a whistleblower in the CIA's use of torture He has a new book coming out called The Ultimate Guide to CIA skkills, tactics, and teechniques. Today's guest is mr. John Kiriyaku Yeah, I applied for a presidential pardon You applied for a presidential pardon? Yeah Yeah. In fact, I brought a couple of letters I hope you don't long as you don't meet me, if I sign him as I can help anything. I'm telling you that. Oh, okay. I was going to ask if I was going to ask if you thought It would be helpful. I got Did you really? Oh yeah. Oh, okay, Dad I Oh you joking. Oh, no, no, no I'm talking to Tulsa Gabbert on Friday. Did I tell you that? Oh, nice, herer husband is went a surgery today. I saw Yeah a messager with her yesterday. She's great. Yeah, Tulsi Gabbers, she seems, um She there's just something about her that seems genuine to me. And that's why they tried to destroy her Is that Is that what you think' going on with her right now? That's why the Democrats tried to destroy her. I really do But even right now, I mean, she's just taking a leave. I know it's for her husband's health. Yeah Um Oh yeah, headed into surgery this morning. Oh is that what it says? Yeah. She tweeted or she u Instagram dayay. Yeah Yeah, do you think because she's kind of like and she just took a break. She took a complete break from politics. Yeah You remember when she was running as a Democrat? everyvery time she would inch up in the polls, the DNC would change the rules for participating in the next debate So they would do it just one or two percentage points out of her reach every single time. because they were threatened by her message. She just wouldn't get with their program She's always seemed very u Like she has her own Oh, she was definitely independent. Independent. That's definitely. She's always seem very independent. Well, they did the same thing with Bernie Sanders. It was like exactly the same thing with Bernie Sanders. So I guess what my question would be like you know I can'tember if I asked Burnie this or not. but why would you stay in a party that you know at a certain point is not That's cheating you. Yes And you know, the Democrats did something in after the nineteen seventy two election, which I think people don't pay anywhere near enough attention to. Nobody at the DNC wanted George McGovern to be the nineteen seventy two nominee He was the most popular at the time, especially among young people but he was, um, He was the weakest nationwide, and he ended up losing forty nine states. you know, it's a party of the people, right? If the people want George McGovern as the nominee, then George McGovern should be the nominee. And they didn't let him become the nominee. No, they let him become the nominee. and then as soon as he lost the race, they instituted this This thing called super delegates So if you are a member of the House, a member of the Senate, a governor, a lieutenant governor, a state party director, a state committee chairman you're automatically made a delegate to the convention. Well, there are like fifteen hundred of them And so you end up with situations like West Virginia and Wyoming. Bernie Sanders. Beat Hillary Clinton in both states and Hillary Clinton wins literally every delegate from those states Wow. Like how' that fair? So' explain that to me a little bit better, becauseause I'm gonna get on this. George McGon was a major reason Democats later created super delegates after McGovern's nineteen seventy two nomination in landslide general election loss Party leaders wanted a way to give more influence to experienced officials and reduce the chance that a highly activist primary electorate would produce another nominee they saw as too extreme. So you're saying the people believed in this guy. Oh yeah. even though he lost, the people believed in him, but the party And whoever That is didn't want it to be like just like a populist vote. They didn't want just the people to have the choice. They wanted to go back to the days the smoke filled back rooms with the party bosses choosing who's going to be the nomine. And if they put it more on the shoulders of just the the super delegates, then they could control fewer. it was fewer people they had to control. Exactly. why Exactly. I am proud to say In nineteen eighty three, I was a sophomore in college I was the Speakers's commommittee Chairman I was the whole committee of the George Washington University College Democrats in the days when I was a Democrat And I saw a little blurb in the Waston Post saying, Hey, remember George McGovern you thinkin of running for president again So I wrote him a letter I said hey, I read that you're thinking of running for president again. We have a fantastic theater here at the school. We can do all the legwork Ready made volunteers My phone rings a few days later Wakes me up and it's George McGon. Yeah. And he says, Can I see that theater? I said, off course So he comes over to school And we walk over to the theater, noody recognized him And he said, Yeahah, the theater is perfect. And there's like a cutout for cameras, and it was perfect. So he says, donon't tell anybody, but I am going to run for president again And this is after the seventy two loss. Yeah, this is yeah, eleven years after the seventy two loss. Reagan is president. Okay. We put out a press release, major announcement by Senator George McGovern on such and such a dayate, George Washington University in the Marvin Theater And and packed the place and it was on the news Um And Here's what a sweet guy was He did the announcement and brought important people with him Like u Mo Uutahal Remember Mo Udal? he ran for president in ' seventy six. He was a congressman from Arizona And there he is And then um, Cliff Robertson, the Academy Award winning actor and his wife Dina Merrill Yeah, they both came So he brought some Like brought his ownfleners. He brought his own influencers. Yeah. and Frank Mankowitz, who had been Robert Kennedy Sr's press secretary was Senator McGon's press secretary. He must have been geeked, huh? Oh I mean, it was incredible. And then he makes the announcement, he shakes everybody's hand And he invites me back to his apartment and his wife made tuna sandwiches. Nice the loveliest people. He ended up crazy as it sound Coming in third. Walter Mondell one Gary Hart came in second and McGovern came in third. And that was for the Democratic Party. Yeah, wow. And they kept saying, drop out George, drop out George, drop out George because he was pulling young people. I remember Jesse Jackson when he ran, he was very close, right? Wasn't he the populous choice kind of? Yes, he was the populous choice. nineteen eighty four and nineteen eighty eight. He was. Very much so. And because I remember we had I think we had a sign for him like You know, our family was always like, you know, pretty you know, liberal and hopeful and new ideas, right? That's how mine was. Yeah. But like, but not But not like ethereal at the same time, not like unrealistic, R?ight? Not unrealistic. But we were hopeful, you know what I'm saying But yeah, didn't Jesse Jackson and did they just not service him or what happened with Jesse Jackson Yeah, they let him kind of self destruct. See it says here he won eleven contests. He did very, very well in ' eighty eight, but he was never a Democratic partarty insider The insiders were not going to let him have that nomination. That's what they do. And the Republicans don't have such a system You don't think so? No, they don't have super delegates, whichich means then an insurgent candidate like a Donald Trump can win a nomination. I see, but it's less likely to happen in the Democratic Party. Much less likely to happen Because of super delegates. Wow, I didn't realize that only one party had those. Al Frankin Be hold on before you move for on now Fanken. So but didn't Jesse Jackson win a few like in a row like he was Yeah he was in a roll. He was all he was building momentum.. And they were like, yeah, we're going to put the brakes on this And when they say we are going to put the brakes on this, who is the wheez? It just it's the state committee chairman who make up the Democratic National commommittee. Got it. But it's just the insiders. It's like the money talking, whoever those like it's the smokey back room. This Cgresswoman from Florida, her name escapes me three names. but anyway, she was the head of What was it No, that she was the head of the DNC in twenty A Debb Wasserman Schultz, thank you very much. Okay. Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Um gave Hillary Clinton's campaign all the debate questions before the debate Bernie didn't get the questions. y It'srazy, it's fixed I think we all know what happened at this point. Yeah. The fix was in. But the fix was in, but it's just it starts to make you feel like, okay, that the regular person, like what you really want Even the idea of that, it used to feel real and it doesn't feel real anymore. Y. And that, I think is one of the scariest things happening in America right now. You're like. It used to feel hopeful And now it feels u It willill we survive? I feel there's something else. It's not a hope I don't know if it's somehat of a fear, but it's more of an uncertainty. But America used to feel like this hopeful thing, like we're building this thing that's going to that means something that we're going to pass on to our children and that could possibly stay in the test of time. And when that when something like that, You believe in something like that It makes your day to day Hhm interactions and your interaction with your country and it makes that all more meaningful to you so you show up for it differently We're sitting here with John Kiriyaku. Kiriyaku.. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for the invitation. I love the show. I've seen so many clips of you Realling stories from your time in the CIA Yeah is having a good memory, a requirement for the job? Oh yeah Is it really? Oh my gosh. Is it a requirement It's actively encouraged. I had a station chief one time who gave me the biggest compliment. You had a what one time? A station chief. Okay. I was doing a I was doing an operation in the Middle East, but I was doing it from headquarters. The station chief called me. We were friends from our training days And he said, listen, we recruited a double agent out here He's insisting on meeting with the chief But it's just too dangerous for me to meet with him because he doesn't know that we know he's working for The bad guys, Got it Can you come out here every month and meet with him and pretend to be me? And I said, sure. So I did, to make a long story short I would do the meeting and then go straight to the airport and fly back to Washington. There was a midnight flight And um I would write the cable, the reporting cable from headquarters instead of writing it from the station and then sending it to headquarters. I' write it from headquarters and send it to the station. The great compliment he gave me was He said, yourour memory is so good You remember so many details that when I read the cables, I feel like I'm in the room watching it go down. And I said, that is exactly what I'm going for I've always been proud of being able to do that But it wasn't a requirement when you When you I guess I don't know if you audition for the CIA, but how do you Yeah, you kind of do. Yeah. What's that process like? L how do you get extxtensive is it It's changed from when I joined When I joined, I was in graduate school at George Washington University. and I was taking a class called the psychology of leadership The class was about whyy foreign leaders make the decisions that they make One of the examples that sticks in my mind is the YLta confonference at the end of World War two. Why was it in Yalta of all places I'm not familiar with it. bring up the UltA Conference, The World War I Yeah. the UltA Conference Was a W W two meeting of the heads of government of the United States, UK, and the Soviet Union to discuss the post war reorganization of Germany and Europe. Okay? Yeah. So Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin, they all met in Yalta. They all met in Yalta, which reallyally, really hard to get to You can't just, you know, get in a plane and fly over the war. the war is still going on. Right. So Roosevelt Took a train to Norfolk, Virginia then took a boat to Malta which took like a week. Right backack in those days, which is obviously a Sci op because it rhymes with the Allta. Right. And then he had to go to Cairo and then Iran and then from Iran to Yalta. He was sick. He died a month later So The reason why it was in Yalta is because Stalin had a spy in the White House And the spy told him, Roosevelt is sick. And so Stalin wanted him to be as weak as possible When they arrived or when the American side arrived, Roosevelt was exhausted and he wanted to go to sleep and he Stalin insisted that the talks begin immediately. And so just to be able to go to bed Roosevelt gave up Poland Look I've down Poland and let's talk tomorrow. Exactly Yeah, dude, look sometim yeah, sometimes where you show up. And you're like, yeah, you can't do it. Yeah. O you just say, look, yes, take that. That's fine. you know what I'm saying? I gott to brush my teeth and lay down for a few minutes. It's crazy the things you will give up when you first get somewhere just to get to your room and unpack and to urinate. Oh. So I'm in this class And just to be clear, so they made him go all that way just because they knew it would weaken him. Yeah. there it is. So they created a path that would just like that would add to him because they had a spine in the wildouse. Yeah. President Franklin D. Roosevelt died of a massive cerebral hemorrhage on april twelfth, nineteen forty five at Warm Springs, Georgia, just two months after the AlLta confference. while the grueling seven thousand mile trip to the Soviet Union comombined with his severe underlying cardiovascular conditions took a significant toll on his already failing health. You see what a well placed spy can do for you? That's strategy right there. That is strategy. It's that's the big leaks, right That's the big leaks So I'm in this class and the professor, Dr. Gerald Post, eminent psychiatrist right tells us to, Shadow our bosses for a week. just watch our bosses each day with them and then do a psychological profile on our bosses. And this is when you're at George Washington University. You're a student. Right.. It' in grad school. There's Jerry. And what a great man he was. He died of COVID, the poor guy. So u so he was murdered. right. rightight? Carry on. I'm u I'm working at the United Food and Commercial Workers Union at the time. And I worked for this guy. He was a mean like angry old school union organizer, right? I was a little bit afraid of him to tell you the truth Big, strong, mean guy And halfway through the week, we got into an argument And I called him a racist. which he was And he got so mad, he set a stance and he put up his fist like this put at my hands thinking, dangn it, I went too far this time And he goes. My penis is bigger than yours And I said, what And he goes, my penis is bigger than yours. I said, You know what? You're nuts and I quit and I walked out So I went back and I banged out my paper I said he was a sociopath with psychopathic and possibly violent tendencies. and I footnoted the whole thing wasn't just John venting on it, but with a possibly decent wiener on it. You're right, apparently. you gotta put apparently And so I get the paperback a week later O post gave an A and then in the margin he wrote Please see me after class. So I go up to him. I said, Dr. Post, you wanted to see me. He says, come to my office. The classroom was like on the sixth floor and the office was on the fourth. So I went down there. closeed the door, and he says, Look really a professor here. And the CIA officer undercover as a professor here I'm looking who for people who would fit into the CIA's culture, I think you would fit in.. Would you like to join the CIA? And I said, oh yes I would And so the rest though is up to you. He, it was kind of long story. I'll skip it, but he made a couple of calls that got me deep into the process So Mr. Post was your professor. Yes. And you also had this job where you were under where the where the guy was the racist guy. Yeah, that was at a union. I was I was using a union job to put myself through grad school. Got it. And then I just I quit and I walked out. I said the guy's dangerous and I guess the way I wrote the paper made him think The analysis was concise, It was to the point and I backed it up with the facts So I go through these weird He sent meross across the river to Roslinland Virginia. Arlington Virginia,'s a little neighborood right across the potomac from Whington. Hold one second. Yeah. So So he was he was a CIA operative, this professor Yes.. Now when someone's a CI operative, but also a professor, are they an actual professor that then gets hired? That's a great question. Like which is first? That's a great question It's usually that they're a CIA operative first and then they get hired as a professor. What he did eg today. Got it. So in nineteen ninety three, Congress passed the equal Employment opppportunity Act, the EEOC, which made this illegal. So um Now it's very like not sexy. You just go to www. ca. gov and click apply different It's different. It's little easier. Back then, it was, you know, all white guys from Ivy League schools for the most part, and now it's different. It was exciting. It was exciting. Oh, I bet it was I bet it was one of the most exciting things. I used to park my car out in the North forty and then take like twenty minutes to walk all the way around the compound so I could walk in the main door cross the giant seal and see the Wall of honor and the flags and I felt like I wanted to cry, you know? I was so proud to be there. Felt like you were a part of something. I really did. I can imagine that you feel like you're part of something.ike what did you feel like you were part of? Well you know, I came from this very liberal household. And I remember my mom and dad getting into an argument one time. It was the Pennsylvania primary of nineteen seventy six. and my My mom voted My dad voted for Frank Church who had created the church committee that completely reorganized the CIA and stripped it of his power to its power to, you know, carry out assassinations and things like that My mum. voted for Birch By, who was a senator from Indiana. And my dad said, Birch By Why'd you vote for him? And she said, he's so good looking And my dad's like, what Church is the guy doing all the work. And I remember being fascinated by this argument that they were having So when when Dr. Post approached me called a friend of mine that I was in class with who was married to a guy at the CIA. And I said, listen, I'm not a nife. I know the CIA history it's pretty ugly. Do I want to be involved in an organization like this? I want to go into public service. I want to see the world. She said, let's have dinner So the three of us get together for dinner And he's like The Battle days CIs of the CIA are gone. The battle days CCI Yeah. The battle days of the CIA are gone He said, um seventy five with the Church committee in the Senate, the PIpe commommittee in the House changed everything, no more assassinations, no more overthrowing governments. which was true for a little while a little while. because F years later Ronald Reagan becomes president The next thing you know, we're you know, doing Iran contra and we're bombing different countries and everything just went back to the way it was. But there was like this golden period. My friends are going to yell at me for saying that. There was this period where the CIA was A really awesome place to work. Got it And so when you're walking into that, when you're taking me back to that moment, you're walking in, did you feel like part of something that's important to America or I'm a part of just an intriguing life and this is exciting. D you feel like I'm like Clark Kent like and there's no wrong answer. This is all just like curiosity. Oh sure. The first seven and a half years that I was there, I was an analyst. actuallyually in offffice the Dr. Post had founded the Political Psychology Division. And u I really felt like I was somethingomet You know? I was only on the job eight months And u It was just as I started to feel like I really knew what I was doing. I was the leadership analyst, the psychological analyst on Iraq And the reason I was given Iraq was because ot my words. These were the words of my leadership Nothing ever happens there. It's the same cabinet since the nineteen sixty eight Revolution. Nothing ever happens. So learn the writing style, learn the trade craft, and you can move on to something interesting like Romania, they told me I said, great So my friend just played ball in Romania actually. It's a great place foromain. I love it. Oh yeah, it's great. I got to get over there. my buddy Patrick Mcafford is he just finished playing ball over there. Anyway, carry on. I love it So u just as I get to the point where I really feel like I know what I'm doing Iraq invades Kuwait August second, nineteen ninety, I walked into the office early, like before seven and my boss says, Yeah, shit's popping. I show up. I couldn't wait to get into the office that day. My bos says, donon't take your jacket off. We're gonna to go to the White House I'd never been in the White House before And so um We go to the White House. There's this marine standing there. He walks us into the into the West wing And we go into the ante room of the Oval Office and then the seecretary takes us in. and here's the president, the vice president, the national security advisor, and the CIA director And so you just kind of stand there, you wait to be told what to do two nice chairs like this. The president's in that one, the vice president's in this one There's a couch here. My boss and I sat on that. There are two like more uncomfortable chairs over here for the CI director and the National Security Lvisor And we sit down And the president goes, Well Now what do we do And then everybody turns and looks at me And I'm looking at them And then it took me a second. And I'm like, oh, Well as you know, Mr. President, Iraqi troops cross the border at four o'clock this morning The Kui Royal family ruling family Fed to Saudi Arabia, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I remember thinking My friends would never believe in a million years what I was doing right now They would never believe it. And I was twenty I was twenty five years old and it happened overnight that you were kind of suddenly having an influence. likeike you right there. They're like they're looking to me for information. That actually was kind of a recurring theme in my career. I was just very, very lucky ot a lot of times. So when you're walking into into of the building, when you take that long way and you pass the flags and walk over the ceil, it's just like, I'm a part of something. Yeah. You really feel it. Do you think that's the same CIA that we have today? Nine and eleven changed everything and it changed it permanently in a bunch of different ways Not just, have you ever heard of executive orrder one, two, three, three three I haven't One, two, three three three was signed by Gerald Ford U and it was it came in the aftermath of the Church and Pike committees And u But responsibilities and guidelines for the U.S intelligence community. Okay. exxecutive order one, two, three three establishes the goals, responsibilities and guidelines for the U.S. intelligence community. Got it. Number one You can't kill people anymore Right? Well, this was after the church commission, right? Exactly. They said, You got to stop killing people And we had these like, you know, we're putting explosives in Fidel Castro's cigar and putting poison on the steering wheel of his car and stupid stuff And so one, two, three three, three, Tom anderry shit. Yeah, exactly. You can't do that stuff anymore And then it's been amended over the years, well, after nine eleven Bush is just like, just kill everybody you want And so we set up these offices One whole office called the Special Activities Division. And then there's in the counter tterrorism center where I was working, there was one called the Special actctivities Group And their job very simply was just to send teams around the world Kill people, come back, get the list for the next week. go out there Kill them, come back, get another list, kill those guys It was like, uh Nobody's trying to collect intelligence anymore. Things changeed overnight overnight. One time I was u I was traveling somewhere. You know, because I had my luggage with me and everything and I was I think I was in Guam, maybe or Vi at Guam or somewhere. I don't know And I couldn't get the internet. They didn't have it. They didn't some people didn't even know I was talking about. I'd like point it the sky and point it like a book or whatever And they didn't understand it That's where Sley comes in SaL is an essential travel tool because it provides affordable internet data plans in over two hundred destinations Giving you secure internet connection as soon as you arrive. Yep, notot only that Sley saves you money Because you're not getting stung by sky high roaming charges. Getting started is really easy. Before your trip, download the Saly app Pick a da plan that suits your trip and apply my code Theo att Check out to get an extra fifteen percent off your first purchase done. Say goodbye to surprise roaming charges and stay protected with Saly That's code Theo at check out to get fifteen percent off your first purchase. You know, my brother used to bring a little bit of raccoon over there. littleittle bit of that dumpster squirrel. You feel me bring it over to ah Thanksgiving over there. and he grill a couple of them up Make it makeake a couple of a piece of footwear, something, a couple of hand mittens out of the body fur U That's a power move. That's what we called it in our family And when your mom's friend stayed over just one night, you know what I'm talking about? That's power move, guys. We're talking power moves. I'm talking Morgan and Morgan. That's a power move Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. They have over one hundred offices nationwide and more than one thousand lawyers. Morgan and Morgan has a proven track record of fighting to get you full and fair compensation. If you're ever Android, you can check out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free Unless they win, that's the facts For more information, go to for thepeople d. com slash Theo orr dial pound Lw. That's pound five two nine from your cell phone. That's F O R the peopleople dot com slash T H E O or pound LA W pound five two nine. This is a paid advertisement Do you think there's a lot of like conspiracies about nine eleven, right? And I'm sure you've had I take a lot of shit about the conspiracies yah. You do? I do. I take a lot of shit because I don't believe in them. You don't No. So from your experience, because you were there when it happened, you were in the CIA when it occurred to where we are now has your When have you changed at all since then, My point of view actually has changed So I don't think I deserve a lot of the credit of a lot of the sorry, the criticism that I get. I'm going to start on july the sixth of two thousand one. Okay. So and I'm not familiar with the criticism either. Okay, I'm glad. I'll explain it to you then. because I get all the time The Jews did it, the Saudis did it Literally, the space aliens did it The Israeli government did it. The Bush family did it., you know, it's like, come on, people Nanothermite paint. There's no such thing as nanothermite paint that they painted in nineteen seventy two to make the buildings blow up. Come on, you guys. That to me sounds very that sounds ridiculous. Yeah, it's ridiculous. But what doesn't sound ridiculous is somebody having a long term strategy like you were saying a little while ago, that people play a longer game. And we're not good at that generally. Oh yeah, I don't think that we are. We're like a country when everything now, you know, and we're kind of a newer country as well So it's like, and we got everything fast anyway. And when you get something fast, you don't really have a ton of respect for it in some ways. That's right.'s right. And it's tough for me to say that because we all just live like one life term. but I think some of that could be infectuious over like a society over time I'd never even thought about it before. that it's like Yeah, when you get something easy you' kind of used to something coming easy. That's it And so but I do believe that other countries could have strategy against us and also and I believe that there were. And what it changed for us as a people? Like what it changed like for how we look out of our own eyes, for how we walk out of like I remember on nine eleven, I walked out of a building. I was staying with some friends. I walked outside And, um There was just some like construction going on and it hadd been going on for a while and they were like redoing these like this stone walkway. I was in Charleston, South Carolina. and they had these bulldozers and stuff out there and like people had been excited about the construction. like it was like because the streets are coblestonees, It's really beautiful. And suddenly that day everybody was like A these like are they demolishing something? Like suddenly, this had a whole different energy of like Oh, like this is the rubble. like there was a connection with like what you just seen on television to suddenly like Something that was being done that was positive structurally was now suddenly looked at like there was a lot of fear around it. And I know, that's a ridiculous small thing. But but that's normal. That happened at the time. Right. And it's just it's just how much of a small thing in your head like, okay, I just seen this and now everything is scary. That's what I'm trying to say. R. Everything is scary. That's exactly right. the whole country was traumatized. It was our Pearl harbor P harbor of our generation. And it ch and it changed how you would operate. It changed some It changed just like ever it adjusted so many things. Go on though. So july sixth two thousand one Um, I'm hosting a group of intntelligence officers from a Middle Eastern country. This is something we did literally every single day, usually multiple times a day And what we do is we set up a day of briefings. They get a photo op with a director, you know, he's shaking hands. We exchange gifts and we take them out to a fancy dinner at night So these guys, they were all mid level, like majors and liieutenant colonels. So it's a lot of bullshake. A lot of it, a lot. yes So I set up a day of briefings and I went to see this kid, young guy, ies that was covering al Qaeda. And I said, Can you come and just talk to these guys about Qaeda for hour? He said, Yes So it came time for his briefing, but instead of him coming The director of counter terrorism comes code for bllacks later ammbassador Cofher Black. and he comes from which country? Oh from the US. Yeah, yeah. He was our director showed up Kofra shows up with the Director of Operations from the Osama bin Laden Unit And and I jumped up, I was like, oh gentlemen, I said, this is this is Kofher Black. He's the director of counter terrorism for the entire American intelligence community. And you work in counterrism at gotot it And so he came in and sat down and he was very, very serious. He said, somethingomet terrible is going to happen We don't know exactly when or exactly where But we know it's going to be an attack on a scale that we've never seen before He said we're picking up chatter from the al Qaeda training camps where camp commanders are on the phone with their students and they're crying and telling them, I'll see you in Paradise. We're hearing code words for a massive attack. The honey salesman is coming with vast quantities of honey where there's going to be a huge wedding or a huge football game And he said, we know that they're planning an enormous attack We just don't know when or where. And he said, I'm begging you if you have any sources inside al Qaeda Please help us. They just sat there and looked at them Nothing. So at the end of the day, I was not working on al Qaeda at the time I later weeks later became the chief of counter intelligence in the Osama bin Lin Unit And so I went to his office at the end of the day before I took those guys to dner and I said, Cofra, I got to tell you You shocked me with that briefing today. Was that just for them O were you serious He said, Oh, I was deadly serious. somethingomething terrible is going to happen And then on september eleventh there it was He and I were supposed to go to the White House that morning. We had a meeting with Condoleiza Rice, who was the national seecurity advisor at the time on an issue that's so stupid now I'm almost embarrassed to tell you what it is It was about a book that was being printed by the government printing office. minor governmental agency called Greece, Turkey, Cyprus. No, it was called Foreign Affairs, the United States, Greece, Turkey, Cyprus, nineteen forty nine to nineteen sixty seven. Literally, nobody's going to read this book. Nobody I was going to tell you that. nobody's gonna to read it. Literally nobody. Yeah. And it's like a thousand pages long That's money laundering. And it had the names of three. CI sources who are still alive And we've got this obscure law in the United States that if the government outs a CI source, we have to offer the source citizenship These guys are like one hundred, ninety eight and ninety seven years old. They're not gonna they don't care right. Nobody's going to read the book anyway So, um We were going to go down there and ask her, just pull those pages out of the book You know, Nobbody's going to miss it. Nobody's going to read it anyhow. Just pull the pages out or redact the names or whatever I went up to tell him that the car was ready And the secretary's got a little TV on her desk and the W worldld Trade Center's on fire said, what happening the Wor Trade Center She said a plane flew into it And I go because I'm a genius. I said, you know? That happened once before in nineteen thirty bomber flew into the Empire State building But it was like pouring rain and fog. I said it's so crystal clear today. How can you not see that you're flying into the World Trade Center? And just as I spoke the words, the second plane hit. And then she turned and she said Did you see that or did I imagine it And it's like, o Everything's going to go to shit now. And at this point, you're already working in counter terrorism, yeah. Well I was already in counterrorm, but I was working on a group See, again, I'm embarrassed even say I was working in a group that was targeting European communist terrorists like Carlos the Jackal Wh noody remembers now. He was the Osama bin Laden of the seventies. Nobody remembers who in the world, really? Yeah, Carlos the Jackal. Bring him up. There he is. Well, he looks suave, huh? He was Venezuelan, Ilich Ramirez Sanchez.. Listen to the balls this guy had OPEC. had an oil minister's meeting, right So the minister for those who don't know who what OPEC is, it's the organization of petroleum exporting countries. So it's based like your oil kind of commit mononopoly.ight. Yeah. Yeah Mopoly the what do you call it? the cartel It's an oil cartidge out there. So He and his gang of terrorists raided the OPEC Oil Ministers meeting in Vienna, Austria, and kidnapped every single minister of oil. They killed three people, says. He and he demanded a plane, flew everybody to Libya took his billion dollars ransom that they gave him and then let everybody go. Wow So he was just trying to get a bag, really Yeah. And he was good at it. And then he was so good at it. He set up terrorist training camps in Libya and Lebanon, and he trained the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, trained Greece's revolutionary orrganization seventeeenh November, the Red Brigades, the Axion Direct. Why did he feel so convicted to do this sort of behavior? He was a true believing communist And he just wanted to bring down the West Interesting. Yeah. But take me back. so it's like you guys hear that something's gonna to happen. Somet terrible is going happen. What do you do at that point? Well, see, that's the key What do you do? We didn't know what to do. So we're going to the you know, Jordanians, the Egyptians, the Saudis, this one, then that one and they're like, we, we don't know what's going on. Well, as it turned out that wasn't true. Um Almost all the hijackers. was it seeen sixteen or seventeen of the hijackers came from Saud Saudi Arabia, right? And we know that the Saudi ambassador to the United States at the time, Prince Benar bin Sultan. I sett would. his wife transferred fifty thousand dollars from her personal bank account To the hijackers What are we supposed to make of that? Yeah, sometimes you got to get your girl to Vimo if you you gotta you know I'm saying? Seriously, you know, the only time I ever saw George tennet, it was the CI director at the time, the only time I ever saw George completely lose his shit was in a meeting with Prince Bandar He said If we don't start getting help from the Saudi government on this case We're going to start killing people a lot of people and some of them are going to be named Al Saud I go out to Pakistan as the chief of counterterrorism operations there. In January of zero two. So it's still fresh. We're bombing Torabora. All these al Qaeda people are trying to get out of Afghanistan, cross into Pakistan. And my job was then to catch them when they came into. We're bombing whatb we' bombing which country? Afghanistan. We're bombing Afghanistan, right? But there was why were we looking for al Qaeda in Afghanistan? That's where they were living. All of them. They launched nine hundred eleven from Afghanistan. Got it at least Theoretically, the ideas came when they were in Afghanistan. Because in the American population, it always felt like we never went after Saudi Arabia. That's what it felt like. Yeah should have But if you didn't you know that We didid not. We suspected But we didn't have, there was a smoking gun So that's what I'm getting to. We catch Abuzub, Zain al Abidin, Mohamad Hussein Ab wasazabeta. who we believed at the time you're having a stroke for a second. No, no, that's his name. No, I'm just joking. That was a joke. The profession I know. The profession of faith L laab I've been around people that are stroking out and if you don't tap in with them, they'll just keep going.eez, you know, And they they never buy a vowel and then they just fucking tap out. you know That's terrible So you guys were doing this guy? So we're looking for him Oh, bro, and we catch him This dude is a fucking mumble rapper, I think, go on. He we were on him for six weeks we chased him. Some days we'd bust down the door and there's like a warm meal and a half lit cigarette still on the table. We're like, dang it. with fifteen minutes we could have gotten him Some days we were a day or two behind. So he knew we were after him He knew we were chased him all over the friggin country. and in late march, two thousand two in Faisalabad, Pakistan So We also confiscated his Diary. This led to a huge fight between the FBI and the CIA. huge And the CIA was right and the FBI was wrong Dumb The fight was well, we captured his diary. So I' sitting that sounds so suspect that he has a diary. It was more than a diary though But even though, you know what I'm saying? as a regular person No, it didn't have terrorism stuff in it Right, But even then first of all, who the fuck has a see, but look look he does have an iPad sure. Yeah Oh he drew a lot as well. It's all drawings. Oh, okay. Yeah, all of it its drawings And most of them are classified top secret. The CIA wouldn't allow them to be released. Got it. because they were mostly about the torture that was done to him, understood. So anyway You catch the diary and I call headquarters and I said, listen, we got his diary And there's some fascinating shit in here, like what? And I said, well, for one, they're the cell phone numbers of three Saudi princes What's up with that So they were like, put it in writing So I write this cable back and I was like, we found these three princes hereere, their cell phone numbers. George calls in the Saudi ambassador. The president calls the king. What kind of country you running over there So we said, we want those three princes. We want them like right now. Next thing you know One goes into the hospital for bariatric surgery because they're all fat dies on the operating table The other one is driving from Riyad to Jeda on the Riada Jeda highighway. He's in a one car accident and is killed in the accident. The third one goes camping in the desert, which is a very popular pastime. dies of thirst. Yeah. so we couldn't interrogate any of them Who do you think was do you think that Saudi Arabia did that percent right Do you think we ever got To the bottom of nine eleven, do you think No? You don't. No. And I'm going to say something that's very unpopular I think that the Israelis while not involved in nine hundred and eleven absolutely positively had advced warning of nine and eleven. They had sources inside of al Qaeda. And they purposely did not tell us the details because they knew what was going to happen They knew that we would attack Afghanistan and we would attack Iraq, and we would kill two million Muslims. And I mean, these dancing Israelis, they've never answered for this I'm still mad about the dancing Israelis. I've heard about the dancing Israelis bring it up So you're saying that you believe that they knew. I think they knew in advance and didn't warn us. But they didn't war wantn us because we would then we would we would do their dirty work for them. would take out issues with their surrounding G You know, there are videos making the rounds now of Benjamin Netanyahu over the years over the last twenty plus years. testifying before Congress and saying You know, if we just took out Saddam Hussein We would be peace in the Middle East If we just took out Mommar Qaddafi, there would be I guarantee you, he says there would be peace in the Middle East and we do it all. We take out Iran and we're going to have peace in the Middle East. It's starting to get a little bit more like I think so a little suss. Yeah So the Iraqis have electrical towers like we have everywhere, but ours have four legs and the Iraqis have three legs. So just a few days before we attacked Iraq, at that time,'m I'm the executive assistant to the deputy director for operations at the CIA. So it's a serious the most serious job I ever had in my life. So you have access to a lot? Literally everything, well. And the Israelis come to us and they said, Listen, you guys are going attack Iraq in a couple of days. We went in. We said, absolutely not put this coalition together with all these Arab countries As soon as you guys jump in, all the Arabs are going to drop out. Just let us do it. Next thing you know? Every one of these electrical towers just begins to topple over, like one hundred and fifty miles worth in the western desert becausecause somebody put explosives on just one of the three legs. And I remember my boss saying these damn Israelis, they just can't leave well enough alone. They just don't ever do as they're told U Let me look at this. the dancing Israelis and we're talking about the Israeli government. We're not talking about Israeli people. I'm far less worried about the dancing Israelis than than I am about the Israelis who were arrested on nine eleven. Okay. It was just just so I can say the claim because I don't know, I've never even spoken about this. The dancing Israelis is a nine hundred eleven related conspiracy trope based on the arrest of five Israeli men in New Jersey on september eleventh, two thousand one And this is according to perplexity And it was some guys, I think they were on a building top and they were kind of dancing like around driving each other a bread truck or something as you can see the towers in the distance. Yeah, a New Jersey woman reported five men near a van overlooking Manhattan who appered to be celebrating and taking photos as the twin towers burned. Police later stopped a suspicious van and detained five Israeli citizens Um They had items like box cutters and multiple passports, which conspiracy theorists later fixated on, but box cutters are normal tools for a moving delivery job Um They were happy because they knew exactly what was going to happen that we would have to enter the war, we would attack Afghanistan, we would probably then You know take a permanent position in the in the region, which is exactly what happened. Right. That's why they were dancing. They were happy. nine and eleven is a good thing for Israel. Yeah It got us militarily engaged over the long term. But you don't think that they were involved in the setting up of it? I don't. Yeah No. No, no. And there's never been any evidence to suggest that they were involved in that way. I have no idea No. But there was another thing too and this is this is a bigger issue. It's that Oh The Israeli spy on the United States They've always spied on the United States. Do we spy on them also? No And that's written in stone at the CIA. We do not spy on Israel, But they openly spy on us. They're all over the country stealing defense secrets. Do we spy on other countries? Yeah, we spy on almost every Why can't we smile on them It's a political decision that's been made. political decision in the White House on Capitol Hill Sometimes it just feels like our country is just kind of owned by Israel and they just don't say that Do you think that that's true or do you think that's fictional? Well, I don't think it's so clear cut. think I think the truth is that the Israelis have inordinate political influence in the United States Especially in our elections. Yeah Well, they just had that election with Thomas Masy that exxactly that's the best example that got overtaken. What happened with that election? Let's bring it up I mean I know that Thomas lost a lot, but it was it was the largest. Yeah. thirty five million dollars was spent The American Israel Public Affairs Committee or APAC And other pro Israel interest groups have uncorked over nine million in a bid to unseat Republican repepresentative Thomas Massey on Tuesday, which they did in a competitive primary that has shattered spending records. Pominent pro Israel GOP donors have funneled millions more into a super pack. stood up by President Donald Trump's political operation that has spent nearly seven million on the race Overall ad spending has topped thirty two million do, making it the most expensive house primary on record per tracking firm ad impact. Wow. For a job that pays one hundred eighty thousand dollars a year So what are the long term benefits of them getting this position? or was it just about getting massy out? It was getting massy. The thing about APAC. is if you are not one hundred percent pro Israel, they will primary you They'll primary you with somebody who is one hundred percent pro Israel. and sometimes You know, the perfect is the enemy of the good. where mean where you've got, for example, there was an incumbent Democrat in New Jersey who voted pro Israel ninety percent of the time They ran a primary opponent against him Um and who was a hundred percent pro Israel and he lost, but so did she. and the one that won W was the one that's pro Palestinian? Oh, I see So sometimes by taking out by aiming for one, you might let another through. You end up hurting your own cause. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I mean, I can understand people's angs with this sort of thing. I mean, the biggest thing is just like if Israel is involved in a genocide, right? They're genociding people. It's almost like, why would you let Nazi Germany invest in your in your People who are going to be running congressmen or senators in your country, It's crazy. I don't see how there's not a law. Like why isn't there a law if there's if a country's doing like a Holocaust or like a genocide, that they're not allowed to invest in that they're not allowed to have a lobby in our elections se Was there ever a law about that? No and And they would lose their shit over the use of the word genocide. You used it. I use it. It's a genocide. We've been using it on here for years. Oh yeah, it meets all the international legal requirements of a genocide. Yeah, well, I think the UN has voted that it is. Yeah. I don't know if the vote passed because I think there was maybe some groups that were that wouldn't agree to it. Well, it didn't pass the Security Council, but it passed by ninety something percent in the General Assembly Yeah, but I just I don't understand why that seems fair. And also I'm amazed that I don't understand why people that made like movies and wrote books about the Holocaust why they don't speak up and say, hey Yeah. this is the same thing that I wrote about, You know what I'm saying? You can show picture to picture that makes it exactly Sing is wrong It's wrong, no matter who's doing the killing or who's being killed. It's just wrong. But I don't see why some of those people don't speak up Well, there is an increasingly large number of Jewish Americans who are speaking out. There's a big group called Jewish Voices for Peace. The Orthodox Jewish community in New York has been very vocal justust this week there was there was a protest there were an annual Israel Day parade and And a lot of the Orthodox Jews from Brooklyn showed up with Palestinian and Iranian flags And it caused violence. ye Yeah, I guess I just don't understand why What are like what is America afraid of? Like like what have you seen like in the CIA because it does you hear a lot that like that the Israeli influence likeike has taken over our CIA and our FBI. Do you think that that's true or not? Well, I can't speak to the FBI and my CIA information is dated. I left the CIA more than twenty years ago, but when I was there the Israelis at arm's length, like Seriously so The very first intelligence liaison intelligence briefing I ever gave was to the Israelis. I had been only on the job six weeks And my bos said, listen, you're going to give a liaison briefing. It's going to be a whole big group of people You're going to be the last one to talk because you're the most junior You need to know some of the ground rules He said, We do not meet with the Israelis in the building We used to But every time they'd come they'd bring us gifts And the gifts are always packed with listening devices and batteries. Is that true? Yes, one hundred percent true. Did you guys find him? How do you even know that that's true? Because you have to x ray everything that comes into the building. You can just wantonly walk in off the street with, you know, boxes of gifts and say, here, this is for you. And what they do to sew a couple Palestinian ears from the rubble? And they're like, h. Oh, we're just joking. Oh, it's like joking stuff. Yeah, it's not joking. Right So that happened during your time? Was that with other countries too? So I'm sure there's other countries that like, oh, there are otherries we don't even have liaisonson. But with the Israelis, we we had to rent a place and we would meet with them in the place On my very first dayate at the CIA you meet in the auditorium called the Bubble. and the head of HR comes out and the director comes and says, Wlcome to the CIA and then the head of security a parade of important people come to welcome you. So the head of security said I said a couple things. One was funn He said gravest threat facing America today is the threat of Soviet communism What I said to the guy next to me, Do this guy not read the papers? There is no Soviet Union anymore. Anyway He went on to say that the Israelis T decclared intelligence officers in the United States, one Mossad and one Shinbet, so CIA and FBI equivalents They are at the Israeli embassy in Washington The FBI has identified one hundred and eighty seven additional undeclared Israeli intelligence officers spread out all over America stealing secrets from defense contractors So the lesson was don't ever talk about work outside the building. Don't ever eat at the restaurants in McLan, Virginia because they're all Russian KGB and then it was the KGB and Israeli Mossad agents eating there to hear what the CIA people are saying after the world. Wow. Yeah. It sounds exciting, though, at least. It was kind of exciting. I bet it was it was like a real whoun I loved it. I really did. I loved it until I didn't love it, you know And after nine eleven, everybody went nuts and just wanted to kill everyone I was getting ready to go to Pakistan And so I stopped by the office on my way to the airport just to say goodbye because Copher said on nine eleven, he stood up on his desk Coher black He said Coopher black ye He stood up on his desk and he said todayoday we're at war All of us are going to have to do our part. Not all of us are going to be able to come home So he said, if you want to walk now, walk and nobody will think less of you. Nobody budged So I stopped by the office because I want to say goodbe. I don't know. Am I gonna to get shot? Am I gonna get blown up? Am I going to get killed? I don't know. So I just wanted to say goodbye. Say goodbye to Kofher? No to Kofher So my boss, excuse me into the Well I was working with. But why would you have gotten shot I was the chief of counterrorism operations. It's the job I'm going out to. I'm busting down doors three nights a week And um Can I work for this guy, lovely, lovely guy Nice suits, just a really like like professorial And he gives me a hug and he leans in and he says, kill them all And I said, really Have we gotten there already? Wow. And he says, kill them all. And then I went to the airport I was like, Am I the only guy who thinks we should do this by the book Apparently, I was That That's crazy, man It was ugly. You should see some of the pictures I have on my phone. those's make your hair stand up. I don't know. I al There's already a lot of stuff I'm not allowed to look at. I have blockers on my phone. so yeah, I'm just gonna donate my eyes to charity, I think soon This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. 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So when you get involved, like How bad did it get after non eleven where The rules of like interrogating and that sort of thing change., That's a good question You know, the dirty little secret was Literally not one single CI officer was trained in interrogation techniques So as soon as we started catching these guys, I mean, I'd only been there but a week, we started catching them And my boss is, like, interrogate him. I'm like I I don't know how to interrogate people. I can interview them. and what do you even wear sneakers? and would even put on to do something like that? Yeah, I wear sneakers most days, polo shirt, jeans. proro. You can't interrogate somebody in a polo shirt. That's all I brought with me. That and sweatshirts. 'cause it was cold when I arrived. You gotta put on a Chicago bears jersey or something Oh my God, it was so weird See, in one of the early raids, we had also confiscated the al Qaeda training manual. Well, do you still have one of those or not? No, no, no, I turned everything in But but you know what? it might be online I might be out there tonight I know one So I was I spoke and and read Arabic And so we're going through the training manual and I'm translating it to the guys in my branch as I'm reading it everythingverything that was in the manual these prisoners would do as we would catch them So I say, What's your name? The guy goes. ike he's having a ruptured appendix. What's your name? And he like pretends to faint and falls off the chair and then he just kind of opens one eye to look at you. and I'm like Get the fuck up and get back in the chair. What's your name And then like do you do you hit him? Do you not hit him? Do you grab him by the shirt and shake? I mean I know what the rules were. So there were no rules. And so what kind of environment? I mean, What did you end up having to do? Like what do you do in those sort of situations? Like, Well, are you responsible to garner information? Do you even feel like the people you' Cacing have real information, this shit sounds kind of vague Everybody has something It's called the mosaic concept where everybody's got a little tile in his brain. And if you collect enough tiles, you can put the whole picture together So I mean, some of it sounds comical now Um I would say to the Pakistani liieutenant colonel that I was working with. onn a daily basis, I'd say, you want to be the good cop today? I'll be the bad cop or you want to be the bad cop again, I'll be the good cop. And then we decide in advance, then I go in, you know, we start talking to these guys. The first guy we captured, he was Jordanian And they bring him in he's shackled at the ankles, shackled at the waist and then They undo the wasate shackle and they they chain them to an eyebolt in the in the table So You have to know the answers to all the questions that you're asking, right? So I'm like, what's your name? He tells me his name How whereere did you come from I came from Torab Bora. And what happened in Tor Bora, the Americans began bombing us. And then where did you go? He said, I tried to escape So I went into a cave and then the Americans bombed the cave and the guy like had blood squirted out of his ears and he had brain damage and fininally made it across the border I lay out a map Tell me exactly how you got across the border. We knew what the rat lines were told the truth. This is the way we came through this past Everything you told me was true And so I said to him He said, What's going to happen to me? And I said, honestly, I don't know You're probably going to spend some time in jail here and then we're going to send you to Jordan. and I don't know what the Jordanians are going to do to you. Because he was Jordanian. Yeah So I said to him But let me ask you something I know that what you told me was true Why did you tell me the truth And he goes I'm your prisoner What good would it do me to lie to you, he said I know how these things work, I know that you kn the answers to these questions. It doesn't help me in any way to lie to you And then I said, okay, thank you. And then he says, let me ask you something now He said, I assume you're Christian. And I said, yes And he says, I would like to invite you into the embrace of Islam And I'll be your Godfather I said, Well, thank you very much. what is that? It's almost like the boy Scouts or something? he like there's a scout leader kind of like likeike he'll like, Yeahah, be like your sponsor. Yeah, like my sponsor. He's gonna convert me to Islam and I'm gonna whichich is Muslim, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And And I said, yeah, thanks, but no thanks. And I wish you the best And I remember saying to a colleague of mine, My Godd, if everyone goes like that, it's going to be incredible. The next raid we did B down the door, two o'clock in the morning. kids, they're nineteen years old Tunisia and they both just burst into tears And so we cuff them One kid is just heaving, sobbing, and the other one is begging me to let him call his mother. And I'm like, I'm sorry, you can't call your mother What they do They they were Arabs without passports or visas in an al Qaeda safehouse, and that was good enough for me.ot it So We got to the point where We had literally filled the Rawa Pindi jail in Rawap Pindi, Pakistan. It's this gigantic city that's kind of attached to Islamabad. Islamabad is the capital, but it's very small. Raa Pindi is where the military is located and it's like five, six, seven million people there So u Rael Pendy, J there it is. That's it. I've been the Raw Penny Jail twenty four years I tell you what, I don't remember it looking that good either. I' never been yway, yeah, thank your lucky stars. Really? Yeah, it's not good So So the PCs called me and they said, look,'ve, we've literally filled the jail. You got to do something with these guys said, OK, so I call headquarters. I said, The packs are telling me that the jail' full what do you want to do with them? They said put him on a C twelve and send him to Guantanamo I said Guantanamo, Cuba. Why would we send them to Cuba And they said, we came up with this idea We're going to send everybody to Cuba And then we're going to divide them up after we figure out what federal district court to charge them with, because nine hundred and eleven was an open criminal investigation at the time and the crimes were committed in the Eastern District of Massachusetts. Hijacking The Western District of Pennsylvania hijacking the Eastern District of Virginia, the Pentagon, and the southern district of New York That's a great idea. So we just started loading these guys on an endless, you know, parade of C twelve transport planes and send him to Guantanamo. And then somebody in Dick Cheney's office Probably David Adington, although he's never admitted it Somebody said, you know what These guys don't have any rights in Cuba Why don't we just leave them there, like forever Here we are twenty four years later, some of them are still there and they're still there Most of them think thirty four of them The height we had like It seven hundred and seventy, I think was when it was at its most full I went there one time as a to perform as a comedian. Yeah went down there and was performing for some of the troops there and stuff and you got to see some of the just the way you would fly in see it in the distance. Oh, yeah. well the way you would fly in at night, they would fly in like this kind of crazy pattern. and Yeah they do. And it was lit up. It almost looked like a big wedding ring in the distance because they had like just these Bright bright lights Um on the fences surrounding there are. base And so you come in like at this crazy kind of pattern And and you kind of had to go around. we went you can't cross Cuban airpace. I think to around and come up from the south. We went from somewhere in Florida I went around. Yeah. It was pretty intense. I mean, it was definitely it was interesting. And then we got to go right up by the detainee centers. and I think we even saw some guys playing volleyball and stuff, but Were there tortchures where people lost their lives were you that you were involved in Not that I was involved in, thank God There were, you know, but like at what point do you call like one office getting out of hand? Like have you been in one that was getting out of hand No, because when we were catching guys, we had not yet implemented the torture program So the torture program was conceived and approved in October of two thousand one Okay. I got to Pakistan in January of two thousand two And we're like, what do we do with these guys? the FBI iss there with us. They you can't you can't like hit him or you can't do anything to them If they don't talk then okay, we just send them to Guantanamo Because you ended up coming out and talking speaking out about torture that was happening. Right. But how would they let you do that if you weren't aware of it firsthand though? Well, because remember, I became the executive assistant to the deputy director. Oh, she would see the reports coming back. You see all the cables coming back in? Yeah, exactly Was some of it pretty intense, you feel It was bad. You know Most of the news outlets that I talk to, they make the biggest deal out of waterboarding. There's waterboarding right there. I think that there were There were techniques that were worse than waterboarding, sleep deprivation Yeah is one U And in terms of causing death hold seell You see sensory deprivation that was also a terrible one. What is that like? Sensory deprivation they put you in like an isolation tank And you're surrounded by water And you literally go crazy from the silence So you're in like like one of those like kind of one of those places you can go pay to do and hide in there. But instead of being in there for an hour or two hours, you're in there for three weeks. there Are they playing music or No,''s compleplete silence and darkness You bleed and total like you're dead. Well, ye I think Aaron Rogers does that. Yeah, I think that's nuts But there were a couple that were worse than then waterboarding, the cold cell, we strip the prisoner naked You chain him to an eyebolt in ceiling so he can't lay or sit or get comfortable in keep your underpants on it. No, no, no, no. because the idea is to humiliate them Remember in their religion Oh Nakedness is shameful. Yeah, right? nakedness in front of a woman. And we would have women interrogators stripped down naked just to humiliate them Yeah. you see this rectal feeding U Rctal feeding? Yeah, what we did is we forced tubes up their asses and then with a pump Pomus up there just to insult their culture. No way Who was coming up with these ideas? I'm sure there were two contract psychologists at the CIA Um James Mitchell and Bruce Jesson Is that true?? They came up with these plans? Yeah. and we paid them one hundred eight million dollars to the taxpayers's money for it But when you look at were these people criminals? I see this is what's That's the thing That's the thing, Theo, they've never been charged with a crime, right So charge them if these guys are as bad as we say they are, charge them with a crime If they're as bad as we say they are, find them guilty, sentence them to death and execute them. We won't even charge people in our country are committing a crime a crime. No So I think that it's like That's like a problem that's been across the board is like What is the crime chararge somebody with a crime. Yeah It's not happening in our own country, but because this is so wild to hear about because it's like You know, it's really, it's interesting like just as a person, right? You're like Okay Did these guys do something really bad to kill people in our country, right were they doing really harmful stuff or they like and they were Yeah, But they confessed through torture. So none of it's admissible. none of it Okay So But then it's like, yeah, it's like how do you solve something like that. you know, with more crime? Well, there was a there was a deal that was made during the Biden administration. So it was it was like the top Three or four. Um, Kalani Sheikh Muhammed Amar al Balouch, Ramsey Benashib and somebody else. They agreed to plead guilty to terrorism And what they got In exchange was life without Parl and a promise not to send them to Super Max in Colorado because they they said they couldn't deal with the cold. They wanted to stay in Cuba because it's warm. So life without Parl And Biden's Secretary of defefense U vacated the deal and he says, you can't make a deal like that. I have to make that deal because I'm the The Secretary of Defense And it went through the courts and then the Biden administration There it is right there. The Biden administration, Department of Defense Um And who were these four guys They were the man accused of Sih Mohamad, while he been in Tash, Must ofah howaawi. They were accused of applaoting the seeptember eventh terrorist attacks The Biden administation and Department of Defense reached plea agreements with three prominent al Qaedida figures whom you just mentioned, accused of plaotudting the september eleventh terrorist attacks. However, following intense political and public backlash, the administration moved to block the agreement and the courts later threw it out. So what happened to the guys are just still in still there. You see right there the terms, they they agreed to plead guilty to murdering two thousand nine hundred and seventy six people in exchange for life without parole Okay, so the deal was thrown out So now what do they have? Wh it have life without parole? That's the deal Right. Same thing. This's the same thing. They're never going to be released, but why didn't we what was the reason why the Oh because the reaction from people It was It was really reaction from the Biden minministry from the Biden Defense Department. whereays nine eleven families too. I guess the nine and eleven families just want to chop everybody's head off And I understand. I get it. I really do. It makes sense. I get it, but that's never going to happen It's never going to happen We're a country of laws We can't just pretend that we're a country of laws, except when the laws aren't convenient for us. But if you kill enough people, it seems like you would face the death penalty. Yes, but this you have the you have to blame the CIA for that If the CIA hadn't tortured these guys They would all be as was inadmissible. It's all inadmissible. Got it They confessed everything, understood it was all into torture. And so you can't do anything Oh Now there's no evidence against them. none. What I can't even imagine what it's like to be some of those families and like and just the drawn out of all of that Yeah and just' been twenty four years, twenty five years in September Um, Let's get a little bit more current. D Oh, did you see that they just had the like they have those flotillas that are going to Gaza? Did you see that the prrime mininister of Ireland's sister Was on one of them? I'll tell you, the Irish hate the Israelis and the Israelis hate the Irish.as that always been the case, you think? No, onlyly in the last eight or ten years. Let me see this. Gaza aid Flotilla activist home after torture ship nightmare Scroll a little. Irish activists have claimed they were kidnapped and beaten by Israeli forces after their aid fllotila to Gaza was intercepted in international waters Margaret Conolly, the sister of President Connolly, was among the emotional arrivals at Dublin Airport on Saturday They wanted us to suffer. She said, none of them could look us in the eye. What a dehumanizing thing to do to men and women age from twenty two to seventy five. That's just wild. Imagine if like Obama's sister Or you imagine? C can't even imagine. I want to interview Greta Turnberg. That would be fun. It'd be cool, huh? Yeah I just would like to get to see what she's like. You know, I've never been around her. I just see you just see like bits and clips of people. R. So it'd be pretty fascinating. The Irish detainees were among hundreds of participants from other countries who were also detained when the latest iteration of the global Samud flotilla was stopped by Israeli forces in international waters And a lot of these groups were trying to get there to bring aid to the people in Gaza. And then also, I think to just document what was going on there. Yes They've had the largest killing of journalists Yeah in the history history of time. Yeah of the world. In the history of the world. Yeah. How are people not outrageed? Have you heard of I don't know if people have any feelings anymore. I don't know what's going on. Have you heard of Sharin Abu Aklah No, I couldn't even hear that. I don't even know how to, you know I couldn't do it if I. Sereina Bakla was an American citizen. And she was the top journalist on Al Jazeera So, um Bring her up Sharine Sharine Abu Aka, Abu Aka And So again, American citizen, she goes to Israel and she's covering the fighting between these Israels and Palestinians. I think it was in the West Bank. There she is Yeah, in the West Bank So she's wearing a bulletproof vest that says press and she's wearing a helmet that says press And she's She's taken cover behind a tree and Israeli snipper shot her in the face and killed her killed her instantly So her funeral is held a couple days later in a Greek Orthodox church in the West Bank The IDF raids the church Beats the pall bearerars And they dropped the coffin. You're lying. Isn't that awful? Let me see, The manner of her death and the subsequent violent disruption of her funeral drew widespread international condemnation of Israel. During her funeral procession, the Israel police attacked the pallbeares at the Staint Joseph's Hospital in Easter Islem with batons and stunn grenades. The hospital itself was also stormed by Israeli police officers who assaulted patients and through stunong grenades What is an American citizen Unbelievable. And and we didn't say anything. We didn't say anything. O other word, Well most of our media won't say a lot of stuff about this. No. What do you think's going on? It feels like this is almost like It almost feels like, um Twilight zone Does that make any sense to you? Yes, very much. Well as someone who's seen like a lot of like psci ops and things that go on, What's going on here? L does Israel have like an in goal? L like I have a lot of Jewish friends that are great people and stuff right? One of my best friends is an IDF spepecial Forces veteran. No way. Yeah How does he feel about this s a shame He's ashamed. He's like, we didn't used to be like this I just don't under like is there some goal of Israel that's a bigger goal, do you think Do you think so Well, the goal might be in the twenty twenty seven National Defense Authorization Act integrates for the first time ever the Israeli and American militaries. So they become like one military. It's like Who thought of that? Oh, my friend Rokana actually, is putting together He's trying to put together a bill, I think to challenge this. I'm like. And I don't know if the term is a bill, I'm not sure So, you know, I'm more of an emotional guy than I like and respect Roanna. I hope he runs for president. He's a neat guy. We had him on here And it was it was cool. I think he's a I think he's a really interesting guy. I think he's brave I'll like the stuff that he's brave enough to do. See, and I say the same thing about Tucker Carlson I think yeah. I think Tucker. I'll tell you something about Tucker is the Tucker that you see on the screen, that's Tucker. In real life, I agree. He's he's the sweetest guy He means exactly what he says He doesn't hold anything back. Ttally honest. Well, I think it's like you're just a human being who lives in a country, right And you're supposed to have these like things of what means something. And then you start to see all this stuff that you're like, well, this goes against everything that I've learned. Exactly. This goes against like Especially like you grow up, like you see, like every other book at the airport is about the Holocaust for my entire life. So it's like every time you get on a plane you're grabbing one and you're learning about it and you're like, You' you see these things that are wrong. or that are like you know, and then you see this thing happening like, well, how is this And then if you mention like peoplee act like, I don't know. It's almost like you feel like you're being just gaslit and then your media won't cover a lot of it That's right. So I don't know what's going I don't know. And I don't know what's going on. I was on I was on the Pierce Morgan showow not too long ago. I go on every couple of months and I've never been on this show. What's that guy like? Oh he's a good guy too. And I have to' tall or not I haven't met him in person actually. On on Zoom. Always wondered how tall he was. Somebody said he was like five, five, dude. What? Yeah. That would surprise Six one? Six one. Okay, that makes more sense. Maybe the exchange rate on him or something. Yeah is the exchange rate So I was on his show and I was with u Scott Horton, who's one of the most brilliant people I've ever met And Alan Dershowitz and Danny Aalan, General Danny Ayalen. Um, for former Israeli general and there we are. there we are So so when you're on with Dershwitz, Dershwitz never shuts his mouth. That's it. That was what I was going to say. He he former Cate agent John K Kiraku believes Jeffrey No, that wasn't it. That's Jeffy Epstein. No, was about it was about Hamas in Gaza. and he asked me Be I had said the least on this episode, and he said, do you believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization? And I said I said, yes, if the point was on october seventh was to attack civilians, the definition of terrorism, is the act of using violence to instill terror in a civilian population. So that's the definition of terrorism. So yes Hamas is a terrorist organization He said, do you believe october seventh was a terrorist attack? And I said, yes. He said, Then what are you doing on this show I was supposed to be in the like anti Israel, I guess or whatever. And I said, Pierce, you can't have as a policy Kill everybody Women, children, the elderly wipe out every hospital, every school, every apartment block, that's genocide. Yeah Somebody's got to say it I mean, it's scary. and then and then and then to think, how would our country be okay right now with us joining military forces with a group that's doing that? I'm sure not okay. And then you have to ask, what about these people like Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham. Lindsey Graham said the other day a week ago that until I breathe my last breath, I will stand with Israel. Why Why? Oh, that dude just the newute rock me of fucking bullshit. My Godd, and Cruz is just as bad. And these clowns from Florida that wear IDF uniforms under the floor of the house, they should be arrested. I't even see that It was Congressman fine. you're you're fine. But you're like an eight you're supposed to have like a read on these types of things. like, what do you think's going on I think it's APax money I think it's two things. It's APC money, millions upon millions and millions of dollars in American politics So they have an inordinate influence on our political system And APAC is the only group of its kind does not have to register as a foreign agent. R? You know, I've made I've made a point on a couple of podcasts Back in two thousand like eight. I got a very small contract I don't know Five, six thousand bucks to write four op eds in support of the Abu Dhabi Chamber of Commerce Soor I wrote these op eds. Oh you should do business in Abu Dhabibi. It's really business friendly. They love Americans. Everybody makes money send I had to register as a foreign agent because I was I was I was publishing in support of a foreign entity. Ierested. What the heck is APAC doing? twenty four seven they don't have to regter as foreign agency. Yeah, and I I think it seems like we have our Our our government officials are afraid to stand up to them. I don't know why are you afraid? And then you have these morons Why do you think they're afraid? But why do you think they're afraid to be primary? Like even if you get primary but like you would Eventually somebody will win, right? like Yes, but Who among them has the courage to be the first? I mean, Masssey stood up. Master took it I saw him about a week before the election. But he can't be the only person in there. Well, Margorie Taylor Green, but she didn't have the guts, she quit She quit half. What are they? what do you think they're compromising these people? Like what are they saying to them? Are they saying like something bad is going to happen? Like noing you will never work in politics ever again We will hound you What do you have the rest of your career? Then if you lose, then what do you have any you have nothing to lose. That's what you and I say. You and I would say would stand up. Yeah Bring up the thing about just the government just like the government's being interacted, those two are that right The House Armed Services Committee has unveiled its proposed twenty twenty seven National Defense Authorization Act which would see a record shattering one point one five trillion dollars spend on the U.S. military over the next fiscal year Among the bill's many provisions is section two hundred twenty four entitled the United States Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative H The provision would bring the U. S. and Israel into an unprecedented partnership covering technology sharing co production of weapons systems and bilateral research and development across multiple domains of warfare, including biotech, autonomous systems, AI, cyber, warfare, and more. Well, this could just mean that we are We're employing technology that they have. Right? Is there any more specifics about this?ooks closer than that. I'll tell you what, if I'm not saying it isn't. Look, it definitely scares me. I mean, I don't want to be involved with a country that's doing something like that. And I don't think that's crazy for me to say that either. Even if it's just this, That means they're not going to have to steal the two percent of defense technology that we don't give them. I'll give you an example When I was still there, we were developing the F thirty five So they came to us and they said, we want the F thirty five. We' want to be the first ones to have the F thirty five. We said, great. we're going to have we're going to give you F thirty five. We're going to call it the F thirty five I for Israel And it's going to have just a barely slightly degraded. avionics system, just in case, God forbid, you know, it doesn't get shot down and then the Chinese and the Russians get it and then they can steal the avionics They said, no, not good enough. We the we want the F thirty five, the same one that you guys fly In the meantime, Emirates came to us and they said, we want the F thirty five. We said, great. We're going to give you the F thirty five E. We're going to call it for Emirates. and it's going to have just a slightly degraded avionics package. same thing we're giving the Israelis. They said, fine, we'll take it. The Israelis then task their spies with stealing whatever the downgrade was in the avionics so that they could re upgrade it once they took delivery of the F thir N Well now we're just going to share everything with them which just giveing me that thirty. But can you like can you fall a country like it's kind of interesting because I think if you if you think that we're playing like that the I guess I always felt like We were out of the colonization era. I know I'm with you. and I know what you're getting at. So it's like, You can't fault a country really for just trying to survive. don't. I don't,. And I'm not saying you are. I'm thin I'm thinking out loud. Let let me finish the sence real quick. Sure. Sorry, John But yeah, you can't f like You know, for countries just trying to survive and they're good at it and better at it than others. thenen it's like That has to be respected in some senses for sure. aggreed. I don't fault the Israelis for doing this. If I were the Prime Minister of Israel, I would do the same thing when it comes to acquiring defense technology I fault the U.S government makes not one wit of difference If there's a Democrat in the White House or a Republican in the White House, We don't stand up to the Israelis. Yeah. You know, I will say Reagan did in the so called Year of the Sy, when Jonathan Pollard was No, it actually wasn't Reagan by then. It was Clinton, wasn't it? Clinton stood up and said, we're going to prosecute this guy Pollard. He got thirty years and he did every single day of the thirty years y Jonath When was he arrested? eighty five. Okay, so it was Reagan, It was Reagan. He did every single day of the thirty years. And then when he got out of prison, Miriam Adelson or not Mary Madelson, her husband, it was what's his name? Adelson other than King of Las Vegas sent his private jet The jet took Pollard to Israel. Netanyahu met him at the airport He kissed the ground and in an Interview Sheldon Ndson in an interview He urged American Jews to take up arms against the American government and then abbe meets with him and welcomes him into the American Embassy. I would have shot him If he hadd come into the American embassy and I were the ammbassador. Yeah, I just don't understand. I think it makes it like I don't know I think a lot of people are looking for guidance right now. I think you're right. If you're a regular person who we're just trying to get through the week, we want to believe in our country. We get scared that our taxes are going towards like violent things and evil things, that's the thing It starts to feel like there's something evil going on. Yeah, and it's not like We're right and everybody else in the rest of the world is wrong You know, you look at these votes if I'm right about anything. you look at these votes at the UN General Assembly, And it's Everybody in the world voting yes And voting no is the United States. I'm serious about this because I served at the UN. It's the United States, Israel, Costa Rica, and Palau. A little island with thirty thousand people in the Pacific. That's it And the whole rest of the world is voting the other way You've talked a lot like you've worked in counter terrorism Is it we like Terrorism' such an interesting term because it's like at a certain point It feels like We're chasing the tail of the dog we let loose, kind of. Does that make any sense, even? Yeah, I like that. I might steal that Yeah, Ste. I don't even know exactly what it means, but u You know, they just had a I saw something the other day was like, u three hundred billion dollars to rebuild Um Parts of I don't think it's Iran, but I think it's Liby Can you look that up three hundred billion to rebuild parts of Libya that we that we just that we just blew up. Yeah, yeah. So right here, it says a truce, three hundred billion dollars investment plan in Armuz. What's in the deal draft that can in U S Iran warar. U. S. and Iran mediators are now engaged in high stakes negotiations aimed at ending the conflict despite a fragile ceasefire in the place and months of turmoil in the Middle East. The possible Tuce plan includes key bargaining points between these two sides including a three hundred billion dollar investment package And the crucial strait of Hermalo's issue making the agreement extremely close they watched for. However, one of the biggest developments emerging from the discussions is a proposed multib billion dollar reconstruction and investment package that could fundamentally reshape Iran's economy if a final deal is reached So it's just why it's like we just went there and got involved in this I don't know if this is a taxpayer thing. God, I hope not. But just the whole thing is like, I don't know. You start to feel so defeated sometimes Is truth. And you start to feel like your vote isn't going to do anything.. That's the scary part. And then part of this feels like a long term Sci op. like it's a slow weakening of the values. like Okay, let's put things in this society over time that'll like, you know, tear apart the American family and like that' like poison people and let's do you think they're like big Sci ops like that going along. like let's put COVID out there so that people are separate from each other and that people can't go to meetings and meet up. and so you start to deteriorate the value of human connection. And let's make food so that it's just poisoning people and that it's You know, that it's just, you know, it's going to make people sicker, let's make health carere. so it's not there's no real way besides extreme stress that you have to go through if you even have to make a claim. like, you know, do you think that some of that is just corporate greed and stuff or do you think some of that's a longer term p op by like bigger powers out there don't I don't think it's a part of a bigger S op. Okay. But I do believe firmly that it's mostostly corporate greed. you just reminded me of something I excuse me, I saw recently And it was this experiment that I don't know, somebody did. I saw it on YouTube where They put a they put a homemade um hamburger on the ground put a Donald's quarter pounder on the ground And then they photographed it, you know, over the course of days and then weeks. and then months Bugs come Antts come they go to the to the hamburger, they tear the bun down. Mostly they went for the meet, but they end up, you know, a week later it's just a spot on the sidewalk Even bugs won't touch a McDonald's hamburger And then months later It looks like it just came out of the package. Yeah And Europeans can't understand how we eat like that Like their laws are different. McDonald's can't do that and in European countries Yeah, let's look at the ingredients right here. the difference between McDonald's Europe and McDonald's America. Ten plus ingredients versus four ingredients. Wow, so the US has ten plus ingredients and yeah Europe has four ingredients in the US, potatoes, vegetable oil hydrogenated soybean oil, natural beef flavor wheat and milk derivatives, dextrose, sodium acid, phice Pyrosa Pyroaate Pyrorosa and salt. Pyrophosphate. Pyrophosphate, thank you And then Europe has potatoes, non hydrogenated oil rape seed or sunflower and dext trophs. And look below that. And contains hydrogenated oils, beef flavoring, and TBHQ, which are banned restricted in EU These are for the French fries. It says contains hydrogenated oils, beef flavoring TB HQ And then it says for Europe that those are those exactly things are banned and restricted in the EU. Um What about the burger? Yeahah, what does it say The US. beef is one hundred percent pure beef, the additives several hundred additives Several hundred additives prohibited in EU And u Let me see Europe says one hundred percent beef from British Irish farmers, no hormone treated beef. And then the additives are stricter quality control and fewer additives. Look lookook at the bigig Mac sauce. The special sauce on the Big Mac contains HFCS Xanthem gum Cpylene glycol Algginate and caramel color. What the fuck Why? I just like at some point you have to be like, what happened, you know? And while the Europe Big Macsaws contains simpler ingredients list and forty fewer calories, it says. The differences are EU food regulations are much stricter. Customer preferences in local supply chains vary, and the US fries would likely be illegal to sell in Europe due to ingredient restrictions. Have you ever seen What's in the McRibb tell you what I love those McRibbs. Well, the black community goes bonkers when they come back I know that. R rush to McDonald's for McRib, but then when you see what's in it, you're like, o my God. Well, yeah, dude, anybody thinking it has anything to do with the fucking animal the McRib? But at a certain point We are also guilty that we are It's like yeah ye, it's our own laziness. It is And we give in and we just go do it That's a big part of it. So that's what's interesting too right now. It's like there's a real test of like What do I you know, how much do I want to stand up for myself? But then also how much can I? Some people are trapped financially by certain abilities and restriction deserts. Yeah So it's just kind of interesting and it's tough. And I don't want to get all super dour What's on Do you feel like there are a lot of foreign agents in America right now? Oh yeah. In fact, there's an advertisement that you see on the sides of buses around Washington saying that and it's the advertisement is to visit the sppy Museum There are between ten and fifteen thousand foreign intelligence officers in Washington, DC in Washington, D. C. M than anyywhere else on the planet? Do you think that's real? There's a spy on this bus. Oh, that's what that advertisement says? that's part of the. Thank you, Edward Snowden. It's part of the advertising campaign. Yeah. and it is a campaign to to hire more of them. No, no, to get people to go to the Sy museum. Oh, it's to get them to go to the Spy Museum. Dude, I've been in the Spy Museum before. It's awesome. It's great. Spy Museums. So good. Yeah, It's really great. I agree. Times were different back in the day when it was like you'd like be like using a secret pen or like you'd have a homeing pigeon with like a little backpack on. Oh now it's all so crazy sophisticated I was just telling somebody the other day Um about u The CIA trained Cats. wander onto the Soviet embassy compound with callars that had listening devices on them just to see what the Russians were saying when they come out of the embassy But that didn't work because you can't train the cats. So they trained pigeons and they put little listening devices around their little pigeon feet Um And they would land on the window sills, but the thing is that the Russians had double pane glass and they were piping music in between the two panes of glass. so the pigeons couldn't hear anything way. What a game like what a game of like espionage So much fun. That's so seeee, that kind of stuff is so exciting Now it feels like um I don't know. It feels like we're entering some somethinges like a surveillance state or We are. We are S like Field is, you know, one of the best recruitments I' ever made, Theo. I was doing surveillance on this guy for a week. I thought, you know, this guy would be an interesting target He doesn't have he doesn't make much money Um you werere doing surveillance on a guy O on a guy. And what does that mean you're doing surveillance here? Like you're wering around in the distance? Yes. That's exactly what it means to. You' just wandering around the distance. W him every day, see where he goes, what he does, where he hangs out, who he talks to wife had left him But I noticed he walked his dog every morning at six thirty Every morning he'd leave the house at six hundred thirty and he would walk across the park. The dog would do his business and then he'd walk back So I asked in the office. I said, Hey, does anybody have a dog And one of the women's like, yeah, I have a dog. I said, Can I borrow your dog for a week She says for what? I said, I want to I want to accidentally bump into this guy While he's walking his dog, I want to walk your dog. and then I meet him and I'm going to say hello, and then the next day I'm going to say hello again, and then the third day I'm gonna invite him to lunch and whatever. best recruitment I' ever made in my entire career bond over the dogs and it wasn't even my dog. At the end of the week, I just gave her a dog back And did you learn something from the guy? Oh my God. This guy was like every case officer's dream recruitment And what recruitment means somebody that you're just you're trying to gain intel from. The person you pitch him, you say, look, I'm with the CIA. Oh, you p you told him that. Oh yeah, I'm with the CIA. I know who you are I know what you do, and I'm willing to pay you very handsomely to me. And he's like, how handsome is handsome Gave him a number. What's that number ofall part? Well this is twenty five years ago And then it was five thousand dollars a month. It would probably be twenty thousand a month now And um And he wanted all of his expenses. I said, What expenses do you think you're going to have? Yeah What's the dog shots for the dog? I know, right? So o he nickel and dimed to me the expenses. And my boss would always say, just give it to him. justust give it to him because the information was so great So We had information about what, his country He worked in the embassy, got it of his country And u I gave him a disposable cell phone. And back then, you had to buy these little cards at the convenience store and you scratch them off and you put the number in your phone and it gives you units, you know Rember that So the phone was only supposed to be used to call me He used it for everything. He'd give me like eight hundred dollars phone bills at the end of the month. And I'm like, come on, man Come on That's five grand already That dude's a freggin snake. I love that. Yeah. My boss just just pay it, just pay it Acoustic kiddy Oh my gosh Oh, it's an o Acousta Kitty was a central intelligence agency project launched by the Directorate of Science and Technology in the nineteen sixties. It was intended to use cats to spy on the Kremlin and Soviet embassies In an hour long procedure, a veterinary surgeon implanted a microphone in the cat's ear canal. A small radio transmitter at the base of its skull, dear God then wire into its fur. This would allow the cat to innocuously record and transmit sound from its surroundings Due to problems with distraction, the cats sense of anunger. It sees a bird. hadad to be addressed in another operation. twentyw million dollars. twenty million dollars, dude And that's here Somali fraud right there The first acoustic kitting mission was to eavesdrop on two men in a park outside the Soviet embassy in Washington, DC. The cat was released nearby, but was hit and allegedly killed by a taxi almost immediately Clever This was disputed. U The equipment was taken out of the cat, the cat was reswn for a second time and lived a long and happy life afterwards. That sounds like a cover up. Nothing to see here, folks Just a cat that has call waiting, you know, That's a fucking insane dude. I worked with this one guy It was going to a denied area. denied area is a place where CIA people just can't go. right? But he looked kind of ethnic and he could fit into, you know, whatever, the culture And so I said, buddy, aren't you afraid of a being kidnapped and Th we just never see you again And he said, yeah, they offered to implant a chip, a beacon, a ping In my butt crack, he says, and I said, Now leave my butt crack alone. Yeah. That's yeah That's fair. I think that should be our national anthem U How weary do people have to be of being spied upon today? Do you think like there's a lot of these new like data center projects and stuff like that's going on with that First, let's talk, yeah, real quick about the data centers. what do you think is really going on? Because if you look at the size of these places. Like we don't need that much that. Like we're already using our phones. We're already have like televisions like that, you know, there's already like a lot of stuff being stored on servers. How are we jumping to a level where we need that? That's what I want to know. Oh, I have to agree Besides the fact that they use massive amounts of water Oddly enough they're located in a lot of states that don't have a ton of water, like Texas or you go out to Louden County, Virginia, o, we have enough water. But Laouden County, Virginia, you drive for miles and miles and there're just these never ending gigantic complexes of data centers The proposed stratOos project in Utah is a massive forty thousand water in Utah a forty thousand acre AI data center campus. Um two and a half times larger than Manhattan I wonder how long the actual data how about And just the data center requires more than double the current energy consumption of the entire state of Utah Come on. I mean, that's unbieable. What do you think's really going on there? Dude, Do you have any intel about it? You have to assume that this is intel related because look at the companies that are involved. We're talking about Palantir and NVIA and Abraxis and all these big companies that either took CIA investments to get started as seed money or u or are staffed by retired senior CIA officers doing it for their health Why is this so is the CIA now is spying on our own people Oh, yeah, that's what Ed Snden worked us about Yeah. Without Ed Snowden's revelations, we wouldn't have any idea that NSA and CIA were spying on Americans which is not just illegal part of NSA's charter that it may not spy on Americans place in Utah U He and Julian Assange told us about Utah This new compound in Utah that NSA has built has enough Mmory, storage space for every phone call every email and every text message from every American for the next five hundred years. Why? Just that building,huh Then why do they need all these buildings? Yeah, why they're everyh What are they collecting I'm not sure. and that's it it's like what it must be It's got to be all of our information What would you do right now? Is there any way that people can protect themselves? Do you know It's Almost impossible now. I wrote a series of books during COVID for Skyhorse Publishing, the CIA Insiders Gides to sururveillance and sururveillance detection Lying and lie detection and disappearing and living off the grid. They put them together And they're republishing them in the next month, I guess as one volume, CIA skills, tactics and the ultimate guide to CIA skills, tactics and techniques. There we go it comes to protecting yourself from from you know, the data state You gott to go, Eric Rudolph or unibomber and just own no technology at all It's the only way to protect yourself. Otherwise, you're going to be scooped up in all this. Now the odd thing is accccording to Ed Snowen uh NSA CIA Other governmental organizations are scooping up all this data and they're just holding it Why Why are they holding it? Now, time was really until the immediate post nine eleven perod where if the government wanted your information, they had to go to a federal judge and say, we want the Ovan's information and this is the reason we wanted. And the judge had to say, okay, that's a legitimate reason. I'll sign the warrant Now they just write something called a national security letter They give it to your provider and they say, give us everything you have on Theovan. And they just turn it over. Or they go to these new data centers And u and just Put your name in your information and everything pops up. They don't even you don't have any legal protections They just take whatever they want. And that's legal now they can do that. And that's legal now. How'd that become legal in the National Defense Act of twenty sixteen? National Defense Authorization Act of twenty sixteen which also this is a peave of mine that nobody knows about it also For the first time in American history allowed the American government to propagandize the American people It was always illegal for our government to propagandize us. What does it mean Well, for example, the voice of America That's our government's propaganda news outlet. We beam it overseas so everybody gets the official U. S point of view Okay Back in in the eighties, the Reagan administration came up with these two broadcasters called Radio Martee and TV Marti Beam at Cuba The Cubans tryry to jam them all the time What they mostly are used for is to broadcast baseball games in Spanish, which the Cubans love. Got it I flew down to Cuba T do a study. I did a study for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when I was the chief investigator there And u Nobody watches TV Martee. You can only actually get it. in the waiting room of the U.S. Culate. Got it. So if you're there to apply for a visa, you can watch a soap opera in Spanish that's American propaganda cares W radio, people like listening to baseball So D network. When it began when it began selling services in Florida found that there was this just narrow swath along the shore on the west coast of Florida where you could pick up TV Marti That's illegal You can't propagandize the American people. G As Americans, we're not allowed to watch our own government's propaganda. So instead of telling Dish Network, well, you're going to have to like move your satellite or do something or pixelate it or whatever said, No, no, no, we'll change the law And so in the National Defense Authorization Act of twenty sixteen The Obama administration said,, we can propagandize Americans now And so now radio TV are no problem But I mean, we're always propagandized. I mean, people you propaganda all the time. Yeah I went to Yemen in twenty eleven when I was with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, my fifth trip to Yemen Every time I go to Yemen, it's worse than the previous time So I have a meeting with a defense attache And he was so proud of this thing that he was doing this psyop. I hate that word Sciop. I said, sureure, what's your what's your psyop And he goes We're funding a radio station here modeled on NPR plays American jazz And then it has a Cin show. So young Yemeni guys can call in The jazz talking about That's this terrible idea Nobbody's going to listen to that and nobody did and they shut it down after a year But that's that's what we're doing. But what was the goal of it, even? to make people pro American because they would be like, o, Americans have jazz.. So I'm gonna to be pro American now. What' you thinking? You sit there. That sounds like money laundering. Yeah, seriously. That's what it sounds like How do I know I can believe you about anything, kind of People ask you that all the time. Oh, yeah, people ask me all the time Um, becausecauseuse who would believe anybody that's XCI? who would even you know what I'm saying? Wh, that's such a thing with me. You know, generally I don't read the chats anywhere Everybody I talk to, at your level, you Tucker Carlson, you know, Patrick Bet David, Rogan, whomeever. They never read the chats Sometimes I can't help it And I'll scan them The only time I ever respond is when people say, once CIA, always CIA moron. thought you thought all of that all up on your own. That's true. That's true. So I said, I said to one guy. I said, you know what? let me call at Snowden and the sons of Philip Age and Ray McGovern and tell them that you think they're all still in the CIA. So I went to prison for telling the truth And that's I would point. I would do it again in a heartbeat in a heartbeat Nobody else has gone to prison. ratting out the CIA and its illegal, you know, programs I was proud to do it That's good answ Thank you. It's a really good answer. If you look here it is and I can say you this, if you really went to jail and everything, then it's a great answer. And if you did I'll believe you, I'll believe you. but also there's a little part of me that's like, if he didn't then that's even colder. that he' making it up and living it. That's the most CI h. That would be pretty intense. But that's I' saying. Yeah, yeah. No, noobody in the world hates me as much as my ex wife. F spending all that time in the CI or in jail. At least jail, you have a good excuse.. But she came every month with the kids and visited me in jail for two years Yeah And so why does she hate you then? Oh no, that's all ye, post story. post Yeah. I'm actually prohibited by court order from answering that question Well, that's I think that's amazing that she did that and brought her kids to do it. She was She was great. She was great. A lot of wives I mean, I think that's I can't even imagine it's a tough thing for families. Especially if you had young children Um Kudos to her for that. Yeah. Was bring in prison kind of fun Um, fun No. I No, I wouldn't say fun. Like what was kind of cool about it? I've always wantedal You know, there's this old saying that you don't go to jail and make friends And I made some lifelong friends in jail mostly named Gambino, Luzi Banano Yeah, okay. Genovves. So a lot of good storytellers in there, I bet Listen, those guys We're so honorable I learned so much from those guys in just twenty three months. Wow lessons I'll carry with me forever realal honor. It's funny The Italians were the smallest they call them gangs in prisoners. The Italians weren't a gang I'll use the word gang just for the purpose of this response They were the smallest gang in the prison yet commanded the highest level of respect. Really? More than the blacks and the Latinos The blacks and Latinos were always at each other's throats and they had like for example, it was Cripsson Bloods. And there was this uneasy peace between them, just because it's not worth setting the apppple carts. and everybody goes to solitarian and gets spread out all over the country For the Latinos, it was far more complicated because it was Buraccios, Nortenos Latin Kings, MS thirteen. the Mexican mafia and then the individual cartels So overall, there's one gigantic Hispanic prison gang called Pisces And then within Pisces are all the different divisions. Gosh. Yeah. And the Pisces, if you were Hispanic You were automatically in Pisces, whether you liked it or not and you had to work out every single day. Oh, that's pretty good. For the coming race war with the blacks. Right. And the whites are like, we have nothing to do with this. Yeah. I just want I would just want to do it just to get in shape. Yeah. Sent of gen motivation. We We had Aryan Brotherhood What' that? What are they doing? What are they up to You know, Arian Brotherhood of Texas is far more violent than Aryan Brotherhood. and they're not It says they're right there, they're not connected I never met anybody from the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. Aryan Brotherhood at a low security prison just wants to sort of you know, go along to get along. Yeah You stay out of my way, I'll stay out of your. My very first day in prison, My very first hour in prison. when the guard dropped me off in my cell, The only thing he said to me, the whole time I was checckking in and getting processed was if If somebody comes into your cell uninvited, that's an act of aggression. And I said, great, thank you. I've been here forty minutes, I'm going to get my ass kicked now Sure enough, as soon as he left these two guys walked into my cell just walked right in. One of them had a swastka that took up his entire neck and then came up onto his face. and the other one had fuck you tattooed on his eyelids. Oh yeah. That. I mean, that's yeah And so I jump up. I go, what do you want? I thought, you know, if I'm going down, I'm taking one of them down with me at least. What do you want? And the one with the swasti guy says, you the new guy? I go, yeah, so This this sound like a story from like the nineteen forties. awful? It was tell I said in my second book, prison is a combination of seventh grade The Lord of the flies and a mental institution. And it's set in the nineteen fifties. That's hilarious. So I go, what do you want? He goes, you the new guy? I said, Yeah, so And he goes, I'm standing there like this. He goes, you a f? And I go, no, I'm not a he says they were bummed out. You a rat No, no, no gaze aloud. You a rat? I said, no, I'm not a rat You would Chomo I go, I don't know what that word means He goes, Chomo, child molester. I said, No, I'm not a child molester. That's good. And then he says You can sit with the Aryans in the cafeteria and I was like, o Well ye. I guess I'm with the Aryans now. But then a couple months later, simimple rule. I was across the hall from a captain in the Banano family And he said to me one day, he goes, let me ask you a question Why do you sit with those Nazi retards every day And I said, I don't know. I said, My first day here, they just told me sit with them. And he goes, Fr today You are with the Italians I said, it's about time. That was it. Yeah. Tk you long enough. You got drafted. Yeah They were the best Yeah, but a lot of good stories, dude. Any good story coming to mind from somebody you like a good story you heard in in prison? Yeah, there's there's one I'm actually, you're going to think less of me And I don't care. that's fine. I could tell you some stuff That would probably make it even There was a guy in my housing unit who was a serial killer He was called truck because he drove long distance trucks from east coast to west coast. He would pick up prostitutes at truck stops and he would rape them and murder them Drive them a couple of hundred miles down the highway and then dump the bodies out. The cops estimated that he killed fourteen Probably more than that But he strangled one and she survived And she was able to give the cops the license number. Now this was in the days before DNA training, did DNA testing So This guy before DNA testing. Yeah, this was in the seventies. Oh, he'd been for. He was doing in life, gotot it So, um For reasons that were never clear to me, this guy constantly sought my approval He was full of shit He would come up, he had the worst breath because he had just these blackened rotten nubs where his that used to be his teeth. And he was saying makes fucking dicks off. It' awful, awful. He was you CIA And I said, ye, I used to be He goes I did work for the CIA. I ran a shrimp boat full of weapons to Angola. I go, get the fuck out of here. I didn't know he was a serial killer. I go, get the fuck out of here shhrimp boat to Angola. Have you ever been on a shrimp boat? And I walked away People are looking at me like, Are you crazy? Do you know who that is? Well, I didn't know it was So, um Instead of making him mad, it just made him more actively seek my approval. So I'm a big Pittsburgh Steelers fan. Oh yeah. He would say, Hey, John, the Steelers are the game of the featured game of the week. I saved you a seat in the TV room. I'm like, oh, thanks, truck Okay John, I know you listen to classic rock. There's a new classic rock station sixteen hundred AM. You should check it out. I'm like, o, thanks, Ruck. In the meantime There's this guy we called Kat in the hat Because he had this oddly elongated head, like a birth defect, kind of giant cat in the hat head comes up to me one day and he said, Hey, I heard you had an empty bunk in your in your cell. I want to move into your cell. I heard it's a good cell And I said, Well, not so fast, buddy I said, we don't allow any pedophiles in our cell and no rats I said, what's your crrye He goes murder for hire and no f I don't even care about that. Yeah. But the other guy I can't speak for the other guys. Yeah. I was trying to like I was trying to be a part of the group, you know? Like go on, go on. So u So he says, u In murder for hire, I said, I don't think I like that any better than the pedophiles of the rats. What were the circumstances And he said, I owed the mob a lot of money, one hundred thousand in gambling. I couldn't pay it. So I took out a life insurance policy on my business partner and I hired a hitm to kill him And, uh, and the hitman got got caught I said, let me think about it. Well, think about it. I went straight to the law library and I looked up his case, and that wasn't it at all It was true. He owed the mob one hundred thousand do, he took out the life insurance policy, he hired the hitman He got caught because of course he's going to get caught. whereere's the first place the cops are going to go whereere the money went And he ratted out the hitman so that he wouldn't get the federal death penalty. Instead, he got twenty years So I said no rats in the room So He was mad at me Anyway, one day Jake Tapper comes up to the prison to interview me And I get called down to the lieutenant's office. Normally if you're called down to the lieutenant's office It's to go to solitary. If you come back, usually it's because you ratted somebody out Well I went down there to sign the waiver so I could give Jake Tapper the interview So I'm sitting in the TV room next to truck Truck was very, very sensitive about being called a chomo because that girl that he strangled was sixteen, which technically made him a chomo, right, right So Tucks sitting here, I'm sitting here. Right here is Kat in the hat with his back toward me He's on the computer, there's like this internal internet, not internet, internal email system He doesn't see me I'm sitting eighteen inches away from him And then he says to the guy next to him Did you hear Kiriyaku got called down to theeutenant's office. He goes, that guy's a fucking rat He went down there to rat us out And I just sat there watching the game. And then Truck says What fucking guy just called you a rat And I said An hour ago, I heard him call you a chomo whichich was a total lie. I just made it up He didn't say a single word He just stood up over here and beat this guy almost to death They had to land a helicopter in the yard to life flight Kat in the hat to Pittsburgh They gave Truck five more years and Cat scanning the hat, huh? Yeah Yeah it's Cat scanning the hat. S. how come I didn't think of that? Becauseuse I'm not a comedian. I should have put that in my book. I don't know. Is there any real value in me thinking of that? That's a good question. Six weeks later Kat the Hatt is finally released from the hospital. He comes, he's all fucked up still And and he's like this, somebody had told him what had happened he goes I wanted to say, I'm sorry for calling you a rat I should never have said that and everybody stops to look to see what I'm going to say. Well, what am I going to say? I forget it, it's all water under the bridge. I go, listen, look at me. look at me. and he lifts his head up And I said, so help me, God If I ever hear my name cross your lips ever again You're dead And there won't even find you I'm sorry, you sorry. Everybody's like that The CIA guy's tough after all. But I said in the book, one of my rules that I learned at the CIA, let others do your dirty work And then I get called down to the Lieutenant's office again Because as he's beaten them, I sat back down and I'm watching the game. Everybody else runs. As soon as there's a fight, everybody just runs like cockroach sayane man, Right? So I'm watching the game. Kariaku, lieutenant's office immediately. They always do it the same way. It's like they're caricatures of themselves So I go down there And one of the lieutenants, there are two of them And he says, So tell us about this fight And I go, what fight What fight? You're gonna to be smart guy now. I said, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about The fight We had four cameras showing you saying something to that crazy person And then he got up and beat the other guy. I said, I was watching the Steelers game. I don't know what you're talking about Oh, you're not going to tell us about the fight. I said, you know what? Maybe I will tell you about the fight. Maybe it was you that started the fight. Did you ever think of that? Maybe it wasn't me. I was an innocent bystander. Maybe you put them up to fight each other I think I might make a complaint against you. He goes, Get the fuck out of my office And I wrote in my book. Rule number one admit nothing Deny everything counter accusations. And as I was walking out, I just said Exactly Dang, bro, I don't even know what to think anymore You know, I thinkig that's where you get people to that point You're like this, you know pushed me and pushed me and pushed me. And at sentencing, the judge sentenced me to a minimum security work camp and the CIA was furious that I got such a light sentence and I was going to a minimum security camp. So the CIA intervened to send me to imed sorry, a low security prison, which is an actual prison With the double one They were furious that I Yeah I was When I was first charged I mean, this is a potential death penalty case. Three counts of espionage for talking ABC News in the New York Times. 'ause you were talking to them about torture, right What cases specific are we talking about? Auzubeta And they were furious because nobody had ever confirmed that there was a torture program. And I said it was illegal. besides being immoral and unethical, it's illegal. You want to torture people, God bless, but you got to change the law first. We're a nation of laws Which countries do you think had the most like the toughest torture programs over the years O do you even know? overver the years like let's go back a hundred years The Chinese, the Vietnamese, and the Belgians if you can imagine the horrors that they perpetrated in Ca Congo. epic proportions. Um Yeah, the Russians, the Iranians, the Israelis The United States Is it weird like we talk about the term terrorism now, but it's like it definitely feels like when we talked about it a a little bit earlier, it's like it feels sometimes it's like How much is America like a terrorist state in the world? And I hate to say that because this is the country that we live in. Yeah. But it's like, I think at a certain point if you use you know, I don't know I don't know, you know, it's got to be hard to figure that out But it's like, u You know, it's like when do you use like fear tactics and that sort of thing to make sure that everything's okay, you know Um Yeah, I don't know. It's like Do here's my question, do you think it's possible for America to get to a place where we're an actual peacekeeper Or do you think it's possible to keep peace without terror Does make any sense or not? Yeah, that's a hard question. You, and I think my answer has changed over the years. I believed for a very long time that we were the good guys I was a true believer. That's why I worked there. We were the good guys. and we still I think as people we still are. As people citizens we still are. aggreed. aggreed. We still are. Somebody commented on a Facebook post that I made the other day Like I heard you say that The United States is the best country in the world. You should be ashamed of yourself I's like, I believe that the United States is the best country in the world. That's why I live here. I could go live in some other country if I wanted to, but this is the best country in the world. We have problems. Every country has problems. But the reason why I'm as active and as vocal as I am is because I want to change the things that I disagree with don't think we should be a nation that tortures people. or murders people without trial. If somebody is a clear and present danger, which is the language that's used in the Amendment to one, two, three, three three Okay. clear and present danger. They're getting ready to, you know, deliver the dirty bomb or, you know, whatever. Okay Sometimes we have to work in the shadows. awful, but it's a fact of life. But if you just send teams around the world to kill people whose politics you don't like peopleople who have never been charged with a crime Then shame on us. That's not what the founding Fathers gave us So if you want to torture people You got to change the law. Ronald Reagan said We were a shining city on a hill Right? We're beacon of hope for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties It's the country I want to be. S same That's what most people want to be. Exactly Do you think we can get back to that place or what do you think? I think it's possible. You do. I think it's gonna take a very long time But I think it's possible And I think we have to start. by by trying to snap out of this mindset that we have to be the world's policeman, Yeah, likeike why I have relatives in Greece and friends all over Europe and they ask me the same question all the time. Why are you guys doing this L, like did we really need to overthrow Libya Qadafi rather in Libya? Of course think a lot of people are don't know what's going on. They just want their families to be okay. They don't want data centers. A lot of people do not want AI. That they don't give a shit about it. It's not going to benefit.' genuinely frightened. Oh, the pope is frightened. I'm trying to get the pope to come and I offered that I would go to the Vatican and talk with the pope. I just want wonderful. I want to learn about what he thinks. Yeah The Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Church just issued an encyclical one hundred percent supporting everything the pope said on this. Wow Yeah, I mean it would be a blessing to get to talk with them. just learn. I just want to like be able to like, you know, share a message, be a part of Nike, not me share, but just be like, you know part of the telephone game of helping or being a part of the message, getting out if I can. Yeah Because I do think it's important. We don't want that Nobody wants it. thirty people want it A hundred people want it with a lot of power. Exactly. We don't want it. Exactly Yes. Nobody wants it. heobody wants it Yeah, there it is right nobody was encyyclical. Yeah I read about this. I've read part of the Popes, but I haven't seen this new one. This is from The Orthodox Church. Yeah, the Greek Orthodox arrchbishop, it's Elpido Poros is his name endndorsing everything the Pope said about AI Um, You have new podcast? Thanks Sean for hanging out, sorry if I haven't. questions at c point. No, your questions were great and they cut right to the heart of things. Trying to get my brain back on track a little bit. It's just been like a long month, but before you do leave, I know you have a podcast that you're starting your own finally. Thank you. Finally. Thank you. you've been on all, so you have to start your own. And I' excited. The briefing room. Yeah, John Kirakus briefing room. John Kiriaku's brief room. We're gonna to launch it in about four weeks If you go to real John Kiryaku on YouTube. It'll pop up saying coming soon Please, please, please subscribe. And I have another one too called John Kiriaku's Dead drop that's on Apple Podcast and Spotify It's just story after story after story. and it's been actually very popular.'ve been very lucky. We've gone up to number five in the history category worldwide. Oh, it's exciting. It's really yeah, very exciting. Yeah. It's an exciting time. I mean, that's one thing that we also have to remember is like, sure things seem this way and that way, but also it isn' an ex like If you can see excitement as like being of all things and not just Th that seem positive, but things that could seem Um, Ke be decided then there is a lot of excitement And so that's like a nice way to think about things. Agreed. And this is your book, The ultimate gota CI skills, tactics and techniques.. Is there a basic one you can give us out of the book, man? that's just something that you can notice about people? Yeah. one of the part that I'm proudest of in this book is the section on surveillance and surveillance detection. I took it so seriously that I actually became a surveillance instructor at the CIA the last two years that I was at headquarters I'll tell you somethingomething that happened to me when I was in Pakistan I was always very, very, very careful about my own personal security And u I noticed one day I was staying at a at a guest house, a little fourteen room guest house And I noticed one day there's a guy in a motorcycle, he wass trying really hard to stay in my blind spot. And the only reason I even noticed him was he had a red motorcycle helmet on And Nobody in Pakistan wore motorcycle helmets. I don't even know where you would buy a motorcycle helm So I was like, huh, that's funny. I speed up. he speeds up. I slow down, he slows down I change lanes, he changes lanes I'm like, oh, this, this isn't good I get to the entrance to the diplomatic quQarter, which was the part of town where all the embassies were and he breaks off. Well, I work like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen hours every single day. I get to work when it's dark, I leave work when it's dark And so I pull out of the diplomatic quarter and the guysy's on me again And I was like, o, this is Definitely not good I was worried about it all night So the next morning I get up at five o'clock in the morning and I'm taking a different route to work every day. I'm leaving at a different time every day. My routes to work don't make any sense just to make sure I'm not being followed. And now twice I am being followed. There's a definition of surveillance at the CIA It's multiple sightings at time and distance. So you see the person more than once different times of the day and at different places. So We have a database. so I put in the database when I first arrive. I think I'm under surveillance. It's a motorcycle. Here's the license number. This is a description of the guy He's wearing a red helmet Next day I get up at five o'ock the morning I just open the door a crack. I look up and down the street. I don't see anybody So they had assigned us these like poles theseese retracting poles with a mirror on the bottom. So I look under my car. I don't see any explosives or tracking devices or anything So you gott to be careful, you know So I get in the car go like two blocks Guyyss on me again So I finally get to the office And I waited for the security officer to come in And I said, listen, I'm under surveillance. I'm one hundred percent sure I'm under surveillance. I told him about the three sightings. He's like, ooh, this isn't good. I said, I know He said, we have to wait until the chief comes in So finally, the chek comes in around seven And I said I'm under surveillance hundred percent certain So explain to him the three different sightings And he's like Well You know what you have to do And I said, I I know Because you never Popped your cherry that way, didid you I shoot somebody? Uhuh. I said, Nope never needed to He's like, well, we're going to have we're going to have teams out there. Don't worry. We're going to have guys all around you. You're not going to be alone I'm like, okay, all right. I was very worried. So I get back to my office. My office, it was me, I was the only staff officer and six retirees who had all been in the senior intelligence serervice, every one of the six had either been the chief or deputy chief of Near Eastern Operations. One had been the assistant deputy Director of the CIA they all came back after nine hundred and eleven for patriotic reasons. But if you're a contractor, you can't be the chief So they all worked for me Right And Wd got around there like, don'try, buddy, We're all going to be out there. donon't worry about a thing. I'm like, I'm very worried. That afternoon I have a meeting at a safe house that we shared with the Pakistani intelligence serervice we interrogated a prisoner. And I get up to leave I don't know what possessed me. to stop and I turned and I said, General Muhammed. Are you following me? And he says, no, why I said, because I'm under surveillance. I'm one hundred percent sure that I'm under surveillance I'm going to kill the guy this afternoon And he's like, No, it's not us I never saw him again.. So weeks later We heard that a bunch of them were sitting around the table And one of them said the new guy, Kiriyaku He's a nice guy And everybody's like, yeah, he's a very nice guy And then one of them said, you know what? Nobody's that nice probably being nice just to trick us into a sense of complacency We don't know what he's doing when he's not here. He's probably spying on us I wasn't. the worst surveillance officer. in the entire Pakistani intelligence service on me. So instead of two blocks back, he's right there in my blind spot And it was only because I stopped beforefore I got to the door that afternoon and asked General Mohamed If they were following me That's the only reason that guy's not in the ground today I was gonna kill him that were you? Oh, yes, I was. Dang Jhn Because pop off. I was convinced he was gonna kill me big g.. That's crazy, bro. Dang, dude. I think everybody wants to shoot somebody But they don't let you. I worked with a guy, great friend, go to the same church, we're the same men's group. they don't let you. And he's a psychiatrist Sir, you made me laugh. He's a psychiatrist. And he said to me I find it fascinating that you don't have PTSD. And I said, is that good or bad? He said from a psychiatric point of view, And I said, Yeahah, he goes I said, I wasn't afraid of those people, Steve. I was not afraid of them Yeah, it is interesting, man. The things that we hold, what's going on inside of us, you know, how it comes out, what gets figured out. you know? You just never know. You never know what's going to bother you You never know what's gonna stick in your mind and bother you and fester for years. It happens The stories, man. And about just making a story, you know? I mean, you seem like the kind of guy that likes to make a story, you know I like telling these stories. And people say, I' living a story though in. Oh, yeah yeah. Oh, listen, I'm adrenaline junkie. I don't know what I would do if I didn't have these stories in my past. I'd be like, oh my God, my first wife, She's like, I want to move back to Ohio and I want you to sell car insurance with my cousin Dean. I said, I would rather cut my throat Then move to Ohio and sell insurance with your cousin. I'd rather join the arere and Brotherhood in prison. Seriously Seriously, and you did. they did. I take look. insurance next time. Yeah, next life.ine. Tell your son I said What's up that you mentioned on the way in. Thank you. Max. Max, T him I said, what's up? And is Kiriaca is it Greek? Greek? Greek U You have a new book, you have a new podcast. Thankk you so much for your time, brother. Thank you. Thanks for the invitation. It's great to meet too. You too man. It's a pleasure Thank Now I'm just falling on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be corner stone reach that ground, I'll share this piece of m life found I can feel it in my b