The Gift of Desperation

Today's guest is a certified coach and a founder of Valor Recovery Uh It's a recovery program that focuses on porn addiction. U pornography addiction, intimacy disorders, commitment disorders. the whole gamut of stuff in there. There's a lot of things when it comes to emotional Um Cnection He and I've known each other for years. He's a dear friend of mine He's been a mentor, he's been a go. And at times you've been a hero I'll say that. U this episode isn't really for children. if you have children maybe in the back seat or something, you know, it might I mean, it might it's not graphic, but it's just I don't know. just, you know, I hope this episode reaches who it reaches I would like to say that. I had a great chat today with my guest and friend, mister Steve Wolt Yeah, that me too, Bro. It's been a long time in on you. I know, it has been a long time, man. For some of you guys who don't know, today's guest is my friend Steve Wolt, is who started a program called Valor Recovery. and it's a recovery program for men who have suffered with pornography, addiction. Is that pretty much a the safe way to say it, Steve? It's a good way to say Okay, cool. And thank you so much, dude. I love the work that you do. Thank you for like, you know, you've been a guid in light in my life and just a partner in crime and you know, in positive crime. And And yeah, I just want to like, we start we met in recovery rooms, right L long time ago. Yeah. we met above the bank over there. we're going to recovery rooms in the palisades. Yeah I didn't suffer from porn addiction, but I did I have dealt with that like parts of that and I have like you know, had like intimacy disorder, like commitment issues that sort of thing, you know, which those meetings cover all of that. Your recovery started with drugs and alcohols? It did. I mean, I was one of those kind of men that kind of struggled with a lot of stuff But you know, as you look back, I definitely think pornography was the culprit. Really? Yeah, I do. you know. I think pornography was this kind of gateway drug that led me to a lot of dark places.. Yeah, I'd love to hear your experience strength and hope today. Just take us kind of on your your journey, this is what people do in meetings a lot. They'll share their experience, strength and hope. and your journey with like intimacy, sex addiction, pornogphy addiction, etceter. Is that okay? Yeah,' great. And so, you know, I think it started for me in the late nineties You know, I was living in New York City wororking in financial services, from all outward appearances, like doing great in life You know, I remember moving kind of my first nice apartment and thirty second floor of a building. I'd worked so hard for this, right? Like my goodness. I walk up No,. I wasn't to walk up. thirty two floors is the long way to walk. Oh yeah. But what I do remember within a few weeks is getting the internet in my apartment for the first time. prettyty cool, right? People do research, they could do a lot of things with the internet. like not this guy. I mean I mean, I use the internet for porn. And so really for the first time in my life, I had like unlimited access to pornography. And I'll tell you what When I watched a porn, it lit me up like a Christmas tree When I watched porn that fog of depression that kind of hovered over me much of my life lifted. Really? Yeah, one hundred percent. I can kind of relate a little bit what you're talking about. Like there's something else with it that feels very addictive. You know, there's a euphoria to it. That's what I'm saying. I mean it works like worked just like a drug for me Right, That anxiety I felt, that that kind of loneliness that was so profound vanished when I watched porn. So you know I watched porn to really numb difficult emotions H And it worked It worked really, really well. And were you using it like I mean, were you just kind of like using it once a day or was like I mean, was there an actual like heavy use of it or you were it was just like this outlet that was that you knew that was there. You know, it started off as an outlet But then things started to change You know this is long before we had cell phones that had pornography. So this is on a laptop in my home. And what I noticed was this progression. I started watching porn for longer lengths of time with more frequency K of needed porn You know, there were nights I'd be watching porn throughout most of the evening. What? hundredmen? I'd go for hours. Wow. And you know, I'd wake up or come two in the morning, like disgusted with myself. Oh yeah. disgusted. I'm never doing this again I would actually multiple times, I would get the laptop and I would throw it down the garbage chute on the thirty second floor in absolute disgust You know, a few days later I'd be back in the computer store tellelling this poor guy that we have a growing business and we need more technology. Literally I know I just throw my computer away 'cause I couldn't stop watching porn on it. Be dude, too bad they don't have an Olympic event for guys who are sick of watching porn on their laptops. That would be so much further than discus, I think, you know? Hous. But dude, that's crazy. Imagine like some guy is just like some little R two D two human and there is like what another one? Another one Steve's got a very successful business. He's hiring. He needs a lot. He needs computers. Oh dude, that's so crazy, dude. I do remember like when I was a kid, is a kid if I interjected? Yeah, please. Yeah. And just to share man, like I remember like When I was a kid, they had one some fea had pornos at his house. He had magazines. And we'd had somebody had like chiseled some tits into the wood into a tree near our home and stuff like that. And we had that when I was young peopleople would show up to that like it was some like kind of like a you know, some mahogany chest mecca or something, you know, people would make the pilgrimage to see that in the woods. It's hot. Yeah it's hot. But at one point I I found had a buddy and his dad had some porno magazines And dude, I remember once I'd seen those, I would bike across town on the weekends go and to go to their home. and I would kind of loiter around the house until there was an opportunity to go see them. And one weekend even broke into their Like it broke into a window I didn't break the glass. That's crazy. But I did that would have been too much. Yeah. You would have crossed the line yeah. But I snuck in and I didn't realize it at the time, it was just like, I didn't even realize that I was doing it, but when I later looked back at it, it was like, oh, it just like there was something, there was a comforting thing or there was like this addiction that started Anyway, go on Maner, you would take these computers in. Yeah, and you know, it was just a sign that I was really struggling with this. I couldn't stop And you know, there was such a progression to this Even like taking more risk on where I'd watch porn. I'd watch it in the office on my work computer, which is kind of insane when you think about it. And you know, I start watching different types of porn. Categories I didn't even know existed Right? You go down the left hand side of that porn. category after category after category. And for me, you know, I started gravitating towards like fetish porn. and then eventually porn outside of my sexual orientation And I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know why this was so intoxicating and why I couldn't stop. And the problem washing wrong with that type of porn, but for me, it brought up so much shame And that shame was so debilitating in my life And so it was really a painful experience. You know this was a long time ago. so there wasn't information around that. There wasn't a place to go and talk about this stuff. So you know, I just had this kind of really horrible feeling. I was engaging in a behavior that didn't feel like it was in alignment with my values and I was suffering Hm man, I'm sorry to hear I'm sorry to hear that, man. I know that've we've talked about this kind of a lot and I've heard you share before. but anytime somebody says that they' that like they feel a lot of shame, like it just really resonates with you man. You know, I've felt a lot of that in my life is just shame for different things, you know. It's so powerful and you can't stop And you said this sounds like a long time ago, man. I've had friends that I've talked to this week that it's the same it's the same story Yeah, man, I can relate to like looking at pornography and just the shame the horror you feel after. But then you still need something at but then like it kind of wears off or you get out of that shame and then You're again or looking for something that' kind of give you a feeling, something makes me feel good about myself or I'm not having I'm not dating well or I'm afraid of women anything whatever's going on and then you find yourself back there. Well, you know, it's interesting. the ease and accessibility of porn. todayod anyway make it so easy to regulate your emotions with it Right? You justust think about how you're able to really avoid discomfort. Like what do you mean exactly?ikeoidvoid Because here's the deal, right? If you're feeling anxious, you watch porn, you feel temporarily calm You're feeling bored, you watch porn, you feel some stimulation. You're feeling lonely, you watch porn, you feel artificial connection. So porn for me, can actually affect and change my mood So why is that a bad thing? right? And so because porn can work in the short term Aain. But what happens, especially for me, is I weaken my ability to regulate my own emotions So stopping watching porn wasn't just stopping a bad habit I had to learn how to regulate my own emotions I had to learn to deal with triggers and urges. And so there was this kind of incredible process that kind of weaning myself off porn was just not easy. U, thanks for sharing, man. Yeah, let's go back into your journey a little bit. Yeah. And so, you know, we're in this place right now where I'm, you know, using porn. to deal with the pain of being Steve. You were in this place. Yeah, So and you know, at that time I was in a relationship as well. Great girl. And you know, throughout that relationship, the more porn that I consumed Things started to change, you know You know, sex wasn't about connection, making love, it was about intercourse over time. It was about replicating what I'd seen in the movies You know, I often like to say pornography abuse literally burns off the nerve endings of sensuality in relationships, less kissing, touching, holding, caressing. And that certainly was the case for me. And you know over time in that relationship, you know I experienced a lot of sexual dysfunction. I had difficulty getting and maintaining an erection during sex. Yeah, yeah. Over time, I actually didn't even want to have sex with her. I've been so desensitized to sex with all the porn I was watching and masturbation I was engaging in. And towards the very end, I couldn't orgasm Unless I was thinking about a porn scene I had seen earlier that day. Wow. So pornography robbed me of my manhood And you know, that poor girl, I mean I mean, talk about affecting her self esteem and self worth. like what's wrong with me? Why doesn't he desire me anymore? Am I not attractive anymore? And I had no ability to talk about this at this time I had so much shame over. I had this incredible double life. So you know, porn helped destroy that relationship. And so and I'm not talking about The guy who's casually consuming porn. I was abusing pornography and, you know, relying on it. Yeah Yeah, it was just what you notice is that men who abuse pornography, you know, it comes with some consequences. And you know, for me, pornography was this gateway drug Right? All those lines in the sand, I had of behaviors that I would never cross over and engage in all got washed away. Really? Yeah. Pornography was a gateway drug that led to strip clubs, erotic massages, escorts Really dark, dark places It was so painful. you know, that came a point in time in my life where I couldn't even make eye contact with the man in the mirror Really? Because I knew the truth When I think about this journey, I mean Porn was like the culprit justust didn't work for me Did it get to a point where it didn't work and then you kind of evolved onto other stuff? or how it like you know, in two thousand eight my life just kind of blew up. I collapsed emotionally, spiritually, professionally. Everything kind of came to a head and it absolutely blew up my life Uh, unfortunately. And but that was the time I also had the courage to kind of ask for and get help. and not an easy thing to do to kind of talk about these issues, get help for these issues. And It was hard coming out of the gates to get better from this stuff, you know? Yeah, how'd you know? what was the was there like kind of a breaking point if it's okay to ask you? Yeah, please. I mean, thank you, Bruffford It being so open and like transparent about man. I think I was scared about even like talking about this, notot because I'm scared of like I don't know. I don't know why was I don't know. I know you're such like a You know, this is like your world you care so much about helping people with this situation, man. So I don't know why I was. But like did there come a point for you where it was just like this is like, How just this is it, you know? I you know, I think the u I knew I had to get help. I knew I was in a lot of trouble. I was getting the best help that was available, and I was still struggling and not because I had a desire to get better. The one thing I did really, really well is I didn't give up I kept coming back The one thing I really did well was I had so many good people in my life. that saw something in me I couldn't see in myself. They refuseed to give up on me I had incredible family, my mom, my brothers, my sister who loved me unconditionally and were like this pillar of strength when I was so weak. So I was so lucky to have such good people in my life And I had to fight for my recovery. It wasn't easy It was not easy. I had to fight and fight and fight. But I'll tell you what. I never gave up. and I live a pretty incredible life today. Yeah, you know, I'm married to a woman. I absolutely adore my wife Jennifer Best thing that's ever happened to me She is an incredible, incredible human being. Amen. and has made me such a healthier better man. I am so blessed for her. And we had our son, Vo, almost a year ago. We started a family and all byproducts of recovery And so I'm a huge believer. And hour of recovery benefits of men getting into recovery, especially as it relates to sexual compulsivity and porn abuse You know, when you think about my recovery journey, right? I think about it kind of in three stages Healthy intimacy, healthy sexuality, and healthy masculinity. Healthy intimacy. First person I had to have an intimate relationship with is myself I had to get more comfortable with Steve. I had to stop running and numbing I had to learn to sit with discomfort. I had to learn to really identify the root causes that were driving these compulsions The was not my problem Steve was my problem. Wow Yeah, man, get in to know yourself. Did you feel like yourself was like your like self was like hidden kind of orr that yourself had never developed. Does that make any sense? Yeah, I think probably both All I know is I was so uncomfortable in my own skin You know, I suffered with anxiety, I suffered with depression. I didn't feel good about myself as a man. You know, I had such trouble being in relationships, experiencing love And I was so disconnected not only from myself but from others. And it kind of made sense why I abused pornography I was just really unhappy. Yeah, you know, And that's, you know, the thing that I've learned over the years is that recovery is not about stopping a behavior. Recovery is about building a life you don't need to escape from Hmm Were you able to notice some of the things that you felt like you were escaping from that you felt like were kind of sending you in that direction Yeah. Right? And I was kind of emotionally unstable And so part of recovery is being able to regulate your own emotions, right? Part of people think that like recovery looks like this. It doesn't. It looks like a chart of the Dow Jones. Yeah. right. And so what you end up doing in recovery is just kind of softening the peaks and valleys so that I could exist in life and you know, not have to numb the pain of the way I was living my life. And so, you know, part of that involved being able to have a relationship with my sexuality that's beautiful and empowering and made me feel good about myself as a man. That's so missed in recovery circles. Every is about abstinence I get that. There's value in abstinence. But if you truly want to transcend this compulsion, you have to build a life that's more enjoyable, more purposeful than the life you are living. right O else you're going to be vulnerable to returning to it Part of that means like, dude, Steve, you've got to learn how to be in a relationship. You gott to learn how to experience the joys of your sexuality. You have to learn how to experience meaningful connection in order to truly transcend this compulsion Yeah,, it's so funny you're saying this becausecause I was singing the other day, it's like It's one thing to kind of like refrain from things, right? Like I'm refraining from drugs and alcohol and I'm, you know, like I'm like I'm refraining from things that I'm addicted to. But it's another thing like, but if you don't have a life outside of that, then you're just sitting there playing defense all the time. Correct. I was just thin about that the other day somebody's like, what do you like to do? I'm like, you know, my hobbies became my jobs. And I'm like, yeah, I got to find I got to find some things to fall in love with. Yeah. I got to find like and there's so many things. How about a great woman? Yeah. I mean, yeah. That would be awesome. Hey. justust saying, I'm down. But yeah, I see exactly what you're saying. Like I live a life today where I don't need pornogray I don't need alcohol I don't need drugs You know, this is like a journey around really healthy masculinity You know, for so much of my life My behaviors went out in alignment with my values. and I suffered Right? I needed porn to deal with the way I was living my life. So when I started to live my life in alignment with honor, integrity, love, service, kindness I felt good about myself as a man. Like I didn't need to dumb the pain of Steve. Yeah. I could look in the mirror and be like, that's a good guy Most days. Yeah. That's good stuff. Yeah. So that's often what's missed in recovery. This is not just about abstinence It's about becoming emotionally regulated, kind of socially connected living with honesty and integrity so that you don't need some maladaptive coping mechanism to deal with life. Aen Yeah, man, I think this has been like, I mean, I have so many friends that talk about this a lot and even women. I was talking to this girl the other day and I said You know, I have a guy coming in who's started a recovery center for a porn addiction and she's like, oh. You know, I struggled with that. I was like, it shocked me. Yeah. It I had never heard a woman just say that to my faace and casually, you know. Why do so many men struggle with this So here's the truth. that no one tells anybody, this is really, really difficult to overcome. It's almost comical. You go online and you see these ads. We'll fix your porn problem in fourteen days. No you won't Yeah. Not happening, sorry. You know, And there are a bunch of reasons why this is so hard The ease and accessibility of this make this like a phenomenon we've never seen before. And it's not just porn, it's sexualized social media. And so I'm in long term recovery from cocaine addiction. And could you imagine an early recovery having to walk around all day long with a pocket full of cocaine and not do it when you have some uncomfortable feeling come up What do you think's like with these guys that have their drug of choice in their hand on their phone? Yeah. So the instant access makes this challenging So that's one thing, but there's a lot more going on. And so when you think this is the way I think about it, right? And so I think that pornography kind of hijacks the brain's reward system and so dysregulates your nervous system. Porn becomes this learned shortcut to avoid discomfort. So when you stop watching porn, you're not just stopping a bad habit, you are literally kind of throwing away your primary regulation tool. And when you stop watching porn, I don't know if you can relate to this, I certainly can, your nervous system can go haywire Right? You can feel irritable, you could feel anxious, flat mood, low energy, and cravings. And these cravings can feel primal They're literally a function of multiple systems in your brain and body, like screaming out all at once that something's missing for your survival That's why guys return to the behavior or quote unquote relapse. This is not about willpower. This is not about moral failure. This is biology and neuroscience. Your brain has been conditioned with all the porn that you've watched and your nervous system has yet to find another way to regulate itself. So recovery is not just about stopping a behavior. It's retraining your nervous system. It's learning how to deal with urges and cravings so they weaken over time Second challenge is that You've heard it in my story, right? Men use porn as a way to numb, avoid or suppress emotional pain. Anger, pressure, anxiety, depression, trauma that none of us want to feel And so when you stop watching porn These feelings come back with a vengeance So unless you begin to identify and heal those root causes, you are going to routinely return to the one thing you know provides you temporary relief And that's porn In the past, you know, I've been hesitant to invest, to put my money somewhere I'm that guy, I make my money. I keep my money. I like to keep it locked in, you know And sometimes I was just too busy to learn about how investing even worked the strategy of it, the long term idea of it You know, I was too busy focusing on just where I was at the moment. That's how it happens with a lot of us. accorns That's what I'm here to tell you about. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. Acorns is a smart way to give your money a chance to grow It's easy You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and join the over fourteen million all time customers who have already saved and invested over twenty seven billion doars dollars with acorns Plus acorns will boost your new account withith a twenty dollarars bonus investment. Okay Oer available at acorns d. com slash theo That's a C O R N S dot com slash T H O To get your twenty dollars bonus investment today, terms and conditions applly, see acorns d. com slash terms for details. paid notind endorment compensation provid incive positive from acns tier to compensation provided., spe to viousors as comers accounts, ag, invment settings, not include acorn fe, ress, not p to represent performance of an acorn portfolio inv, results, inv r,or invis, L, and I invest invisers, the important acorns com This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. It's summer, baby. it's warmed up You could feel more it's not even a joke The other day I was just standing in a driveway and just thinking, go The heat on Cut it off I was texting my neighborsays y'alls heat on J overwhelmed. it's hot. When you're on the go, staying hydrated is the key to enjoying all that extra sunshine And liquid IV is clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone I bring liiquid RV with me when I'm on the go, I bring it After a show, I get me a little packet of one of them, that liquid IV packet I pourred it in I shicket. I like the sugar free flavors. That's what I like. agion Page and strawberry and watermelon. Just one stick and sixteen ounces of water hydrates faster than water alone. Powered by LIV hydrosscience and optimized ratio of electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients to turn ordinary water to extraordinary hydration Stay hydrated while you're on the go this summer with liquid IV. Tar poor, live more. Go to liquidivV d. com and get twenty percent off your first purchase with Code Theo at checkout That's twenty percent off your first purchase with Code Theo at liquidivV d. com But some in it just shows up everywhere that you kind of get addicted to it like that. It's like a guy may not have a lot of problem. A guy may be healthy, but he accidentally picks up some cocaine off the street and now he's using it, right? As opposed to a guy who like is hurting and goes to look for cocaine or porn. you know, I'm just I'm using cocaine is I don't know why he use that, but like, you know, there's some guys who accidentally just shows up on their phone. mayaybe it's a pop up or whatever or they just are they have some sexual energy and they take it there and they're not really maybe they're healthy when they get there. And then there's guys who are unhealthy that go there Um for a fix, it feels like. So it feels like there's kind of two different percent There's casual porn uses. Okay, so not everybody is Not at all Like is trying to has all these things that they that they need to repair. That's correct. Okay, got it. There are guys out there that are continue to get engage in the behavior despite consequences And R. so I think the statistics say ten to fifteen percent of men have an addiction or severe unhealthy relationship with pornography So I'm talking about that category of men. Yeah, because for me, know I never had like the addiction to pornography. L I had the use of it. Give it time. giveive it time. Don't tell yourself short. Please no Um, but I definitely had where it it was an it was a way instead of having to connect with the woman. Yeah. I would this is an easier way and that became like just an easier, safer way. I didn't have an so I guess there isn't an addictive element there, but I didn't have like the the daily like, you know, like the that draw to it I had, um, more like like intimacy issues with talking with women and stuff like that. and then I would just end up using doing masturbation a lot of times not even too pornography. But then once porn became more prevalent and stuff like that, it was easier Well I think you highlighted a really good point. There's another component to this. porn abuse porn addiction, sexual compulsivity, whatever label you're throwing at it is often referred to as an intimacy disorder. Meaning for many men, this is about more than just a sexual behavior. This is about a pattern of avoiding emotional connection. You just highlighted it. That was my thing. That's right. Emotional connection was tough for me. I didn't have any experience of it. And so when I finally got into like like dating or like where you're having an attraction with girls and they're having an attraction for you and women. it was a lot it was like it was scary, I guess or it was Alarming, it was a lot of things. and I didn't have like a safe outlet to talk about it Um And I didn't have any groundwork off like healthy connection at all So that so I think it yeah, that just made it like kind of tough. And then to avoid it, I would be like, okay, well I have these sexual feelillings. I'll just go and use jerkin off or whatever, something like that as opposed to trying to figure out how to work them out because working them out in real time when you're a kid, like when you're young, you know, when you're adolescent or whatever It's kind of scary, you know, it's like a lot of that scary, you know? Yeah, whereere do you go to talk about this stuff? Right and your peers, like some of them are kind of helpful, but some of them are also like Other kids can be assholes about the stuff So, um Anyway, I'm trying to some of it I I can't remember exactly some of the ways, but yeah, instead of like engaging sometimes I'll be like Oh, I'm too nervous to even talk to that girl. I'll just masturbate later on or you know, it's it's interesting. that m sense. perfect sense. I think men. Men begin to prefer the safety of porn. versus the unpredictability of relationships and real people. Yeah So once again, recovery is not just about stopping a behavior. Recovery is learning how to relate, engage and connect with others. Recovery is about learning how to experience real intimacy, which sorry has to include some vulnerability and taking some emotional risk Recovery is about learning to experience the joys of connection and love Right? Because you know, if you're not on that path It's hard not to be in pain and suffering And so it's so important in recovery. So when you think about why this is so hard, right? you just talk about it, right? If you don't understand the neuroscience and the nervous system regulation, guys just stay in this hamster wheel loop If you don't identify some of the root causes that are driving this compulsion, you're vulnerable to returning to it And if you don't do a deeper dive around intimacy and what's blocking you from connection, you stay in pain and lonely. So kind of all three of these need to be addressed in order for a lasting recovery to occur. Yeah. But it's more than that And I'll tell you a few other thoughts I have on why this is so hard Early recovery can be very painful. And so when you so overstimulate your brain from pornography and from sexualized social media, when you stop engaging those behaviors, your mood can be flat You can have low energy and you can have intolerable boredom And people think that boredom is the enemy. It's not. It's actually your body recalibrating. Everything you want in life is on the other side of you learning how to tolerate boredom But for so many men, they quit too early because they can't sit with this discomfort The other challenge we see constantly is that so many guys quit before the miracle happens. Yeah. I struggled for many years before I was able to make real progress in my recovery. You know, oftentimes in recovery circles we measure sobriety success by continuous days of sobriety, thirty days, sixty days, ninety days, six months a year, all good stuff. right, All this out.. However However, that cannot be the sole measurement of progress Because for many guys, myself included, they're not going to get it right away Right? It's going to be a journey. And if you keep kind of having to relapse and you go down this massive shame spiral, that you're failing, that you're a failure, you give up So recovery is about becoming emotionally regulated, socially connected, learning to live with honor and integrity so that you don't need porn anymore. That can take time. Recovery is about building a life you don't need to escape from. that can take time. And so for many guys, especially single guys, right where there's not external leverage or consequences on you. right? A married guy, he's really in trouble with his relationship, he's got to get sober or the marriage is at risk.. That's one dynamic. But now you got a single guy right now What is the motivation for him right now to continue on this work? You got to keep that person inspired and motivated to continue to do the work. And guess what? if the best that you can do is watch eighty percent to ninety percent less porn in any given month, great job R Great job As long as that is in conjunction with you developing new habits to take better care of yourself physically, spiritually, and emotionally. amen. Right? Recovery is a be the ability to sustain abstinence will be a byproduct taking better care of yourself physically, emotionally and spiritually. Yeah. It's a three sided deal. hundred percent. So guys quit too early. likeike where are you going? We just got started. And so why not also measure consistency of going to the gym, consonsistency of making social plans, consistency of learning a new hobby. Keeping your word. dude. taking care of your. Masure that stuff in addition to your sober day count Yeah, there's a lot of other factors that start to gauge like that you can use to self gauge as well. And that are super important. But also a lot of those factors are things that it's also just like You know, uh It's getting up. It's getting up Being active, I want to take care of myself physically. You know, I want to meditate. I want to have a relationship with a higher power. I want to like Nurture This gift, this thing that I am, right? And there's this other, it's such a Pandora's box porn is because it's like Here's this thing And it's just it's tricked. It's tricked. It's it's it's it's like a It's just a finineally calculated molecule of the devil really. You know. And it's it's and so when sometimes people are like, man, we're not at war. There's not a lot going on. But if we're sitting here losing a battle a lot of times. So I do think there's a there's it there is this inspirational element sometimes Um where I'll feel like I can I Like If I want to war, there's one every single day for me against the dark arts, against the things that want to drag me down, you know, against the things that are literally or finesse to take away the essence of me, right? essence of me, man. And so it's like there's a battle right now, I think for a lot of that and a lot of us don't realize u Wh and we can get kind of like lullabied into the comfort of it. You don't think it's a big deal. You're looking at it once or twice, right? But then you like I would notice for myself if I was doing jerkin off or whatever, something like that, the next day Id feel a little bit kind of bad about myself or I'd be shorter with people. If I looked at pornography, it made me look at like dates and stuff. It just made me like It carried had a little bit of shame inside of me. You don't even realize that sometimes it's like You don't think it's on the forefront of you or that it's it's affecting like the look in your eyes or you think. But there's a little bit of that in there. You know, it kind of like colors your coffee a little bit. It's like, u But it's not the best color. You know, does any of this stuff make sense I' saying you've I' kind rambling. No, no, there's I want to hard to explain. Yeah. You did a good job with a few things that come to mind Number one, you talk about the rig system And so I read this, I shared this with you on a phone a few weeks ago I read this stat that said that S mean spike is from the anticipation of watching the next video and not the video you're actually watching. Wow So the addiction is to the scroll And dopamine, this is I might butcher this, but I think that's what it said. Dpamine is not the pleasure chemical, it's the motivation chemical. It's the chemical of pursuit. What's next So social media is rigged this way. Pornography is rigged this way. You know, back in the day, you know, getting access to porn was going to some creepy video store. Yeah, going behind a curtain that's said adult only or beads, those beads that would hang. You obviously know. And all of a sudden you get this VHS in a brown paper bag, put it underneath your arm do the walk of shhame home. Yeah, right? But you go watch that VHS, you know, for fifteen minutes. do whatever and go about your day. That's not what modern day porn abuse looks like infinite novelty, where you're constantly scrolling for sexual imagery hours at a time This is a whole new beast Yeah, it says it right here. Industry analytics and search engine S studies estimate that pornographic content accounts for roughly twenty percent of all internet searches on mobile devices That's astronomical. This is notably higher than desktop search rates, which generally clock in around thirteen percent The primary driver of this higher mobile percentage is the privacy portability and convenience that smart phones provide. Because of this, studies from major adult entertainment networks indicate the vast majority of adult content is accessed via a cell phone. Yeah, I read the other day that porn hub whichich is banned here in Tennessee. I do want to say that. Is that right? You have to have an ID to access it. That's correct. And that's how that dude that that thing that they have, I think it's the u Tennessee Minors Act. Is that what it is The Protect Tennessee Minors Act is a state law mandating that commercial websites and digital platforms containing a substantial portion of content harmful to minors implement reasonable age verification methods. So you have to you have to enter your ID. stuff. That's a huge thing because it makes you take some accountability. Okay, Is this something that I'm willing to say I do, right Is this something I'm willing to put my name, my height, my data. amm I really you know what I'm saying? A I willing to go that far with it? I love that. I love that like there's been times where I've wanted to go look at stuff and that stopped me right there. Great. Yeah. So I do find that that is helpful because it like Um Yeah, I don't wan to put myself in there really. Like I want to look at it as like this guy in the distance, right? Have they seen fake ID spiking right now? 'cause people that's a great question. Good business perhaps. Yeah, yeah Around sevencent to eleven percent of men self report experiencing problematic pornography use or feeling addicted I mean, that's unbelievable, man And it's just not porn? You look at the content that's on X, you look at the content that's on Instagram, Facebook reels, right? That sexualized content can have the same effect on the brain as watching pornography. And so it's an issue And so we live in a really tricky time right now because it's everywhere. It's unbelievable that it exists. and it's unbelievable that we allow it. as well You know, that we allow it. Well, there's also a societal thing with guys, like that's what guys do Right? It's cool, watching porn. And I'll tell you the truth. That ain't so cool Guys don't do it together. Guys watch a game together. I've never had a guy be like, Hey, man, I'm having a couple of the guys over to watch some porn? Yeah. The thing that's really interesting to me is here's the truth. So many men who abuse pornography, right? It affects their sexual performance It affects how they show up in relationships and it builds shame. Right. So so many men struggle with sexual performance. That's not a new thing. But what is new and I think quite concerning is how many of those men are under the age of forty. They turn to Cialis, Viagra, or testosterone replacement therapy, thinking that something's wrong with them physically The truth is and the reality is is their sexual dysfunction is probably caused by all the porn they're consuming. So heavy porn use can rewire the brain and even my own story. Is that true?haps Heavy porn use can rewire the brain and cause odd all types of problems in the bedroom, like even in my own story, right? I had difficulty getting and maintaining an erection during sex, especially with a partner. I had difficulty orgasming towards the end of my run with pornography. I had difficulty maintaining an erection and a needed porn stimulation to stay aroused. And heavy porn use can absolutely lead to premature ejaculation. You know, onene of the things I didn't share in my story, which is important to talk about, right? because there's probably a bunch of listeners right now listening waiting for someone to tell the damn truth You know, when I first started consuming porn early in my life, before that relationship, I struggled with premature ejaculation. and I had so much shame and embarrassment around it. I got to a point where I'd rather not be with a woman, then be with a woman and have that type of sexual performance. You feel like you were just so nervous about sex? I mean, it makes sense. sex is a nervous thing for. I'll tell you a few things that I for a youngster. I didn't realize a few things. For the children, seex is nervous for the children, you know? It's a nervous thing. for adults And so what I didn't realize at that time was that porn that I was consuming the way that I was actually masturbating to it kind of conditioned my brain to orgasm quickly and that carried over to real life scenarios. I didn't realize at that time that the intense porn that I was watching so overstimulated my brain leading to early orgasm. Wow. So my pornies was tied to shame and secrecy, which fueled kind of anxiety around sex making it kind of uncomfortable And you know, porn was the cause of this. Yeah So that's one area, men, not so manly when you think about, hey, you know, is it really that cool? Right? Second challenge that guys tend to have, It can totally affect how guys show up in relationships. Oh yeah, dude. watchatching like touching your body or whatever, jerking off or whatever, it was like u It was like It just made it easier than having to go and try with women and having to go and have a relationship. It made it all just easier. And if you came from like for me, I just There was so much, it was so uncomfortable that I was like, I don't really I mean, I guess I had a choice. But it just was too much of a of an easy alternative It was like, I don't I don't know how like, you know I'm so embarrassed. I'm so like just have so low self worth, so many little things. They're like, man, I can't I can't go ask this girl out or do, you know? So it became this little thing. And then this was the part that I was gonna to get that you made me think about, sorry E Everything about sex felt like a secret Like I would like it was always like when I was growing up we would go in the woods and see the tits or whatever chiseled in the wood or whatever. or you would sneak in a That still around you think I'm sure it's been No, I think they had weevils or whatever got it I think it was that. I can't remember exactly how to look it up but or it could have been one of those new ticks that Bill Gates unleashed or whatever. But whatever, I'm sure it's gone these days Or it's really it's eroded to an aup, you know, for sure. And what's the point to visit it then, right? comeome on. At the time those things were I're making a road trip for an eight c. Dude that a woodpecker would land on one of them. That's big. Pretty nice. So but dude the biggest thing I think about like, it was just like se everything was sex when I was young became like secretive It became like secretive because yeah, if you were looking at pornography, you was doing masturbation, you was sneaking off and doing it. So everything became secretive. So then like everything like even when like dating, I'd never want anybody to know was I was very secretive about stuff. So it always had all this like a little bit of extra like It kind of taboo around it, I think. I don't even know what that means, but it was just like You know, when things are in secret, its it's you know, they they Things in secret can be kind of uncomfortable Things you're always trying to hide can be kind of uncomfortable. That's right. you know, I think also that secrecy can lead to shame. Yeah Oh, yeah, well, you're always, if something's in secret, you're always worried somebody's gonna find out about that. And I didn't have any positive like relationship with sex or no like I didn't have any not like nobody taught me, told me nothing about it. It was just like your body changeed and then you're like dealing with it. And mean, I wasm still waiting to get the birds and beets conversations with dad H. You know what I'm saying Yeah, ye Yeah, they should just have a decent man that travels around the country. Hping just have the birds and the bees conversation. Like a temporary rented dad to have the conversation with you when you're like twelve. Yeah, just like some weiener Santa or whatever who He travels around, he pulls up, you know what I'm saying? Do it outside wherever where it's in view of the, you know where the Lord can see it. But Anyway, you were going into a second part about relationships, how it affects relationships. And dude, I'll even remember like if you if I if I say if you, but if I'd been like, you know, doing touching myself or whatever, jurking off or whatever like that, then I would u you're right when you said it's like it changed the amount of intimacy. Now it's like if my girl and I are going somewhere, maybe I dont would I wouldn't touch her touch her elbow or like you know what I'm saying or like give her a pinch or like, you know what I'm saying? I wouldn't create that energy. So a lot of that energy disappears. And that's the thing I think that we don't realize a lot. It's that little like that yin and yang, that whole thing that keeps like nature and society and And really the future because of procreation, which keeps it all in balance is this kind of tension R? A romantic kind of like samba between like like her aura and mind and pornography like weakens that. And then you're right. peopleople take into their head like a woman will take in her head like, o, something's wrong with me or he thinks I'm not this way or I can't do these things, which is a you know what I'm saying? So it's just it's a tough cycle. And I think a lot of it does fall in us men becausecause we got to be stronger, you know, I'm not saying that I'm great at it or anything I do think that Somebody's got to come to the rescue of us and I think it has to be us Well, no one's coming to rescue us, right? You got to take accountability in your own life I think you really eloquently kind of laid out the dynamics that point abuse can have in relationship. Yeah, really? You douly did. That was really well said. And you know And I just I feel bad about some of the I feel like Tang, I wasted a couple of relationships. I wasted some and I wasted somebody's time and I wasted like And I didn't even know it. But yeah, some of them Oh know. the way you learn and grow. Yeah. And you know, what you often see when men abuse porn over time, they can lose attraction for their partners because they can't compete with porn mean, how unfair is that? Right? There could be less desire for romance I'll say it again, pornography abuse burns off the nerve endings of sensuality in relationships, less touching, holding, kissing, caressing. So if I'm watching porn, you know, maybe I don't notice the waves in my wife's hair If I'm watching porn, we hold hands less, perhaps. So pornography abuse can deaden the vibrancy of our partners, our wives and our marriages. I mean, that kind of sucks. Yeah, well it dims the way you feel For me, it dims the way I feel if I'm waking up. That's right. I still my first thought sometimes is if I'd looked at pornography today before, it's like, o man, I wish hadn't done that. I think I can not do it. You know, it's like, but you're always in this war Yeah it put you always in like this battlefield. It's like being hooked up to an vy drip of shame And for not every guy, right? we're not talking about the casual use. We're talking about the compulsive use. And the other thing you tend to see over time, the guys that end up abusing pornography. Porn of masturbation just become the preferred sexual outlet And shame and secrecy and guilt become the norm. And because of that shame, so many guys, especially our young guys are not dating. They've given up on dating. They're not actually having physical sex. I read a stat not too long ago that one out of three men under the age of thirty have not had sex in the last year One out of three men? One out of three men under the age of thirty have not had sex in the last year. But some of those men could be ten years old or whatever. I would imagine I didn't look at the fine print of the thing. I would imagine they probably told me age eighteen to or thirty. Oh, they should say that then. They should probably yeah, good point. 'use yeah, if it's like o, thiss five,'re't tell you like, ye. Yeah, we we' fact check this right now Anyway, recent data from the Gal Social sururvey indicates that nearly one quarter of young adults aged eighteen to twenty nine reported having no sex in the past year, looking specifically at younger single men under thirty. The rate of sexessness can inclimb closer to one third And then bro, you know what happens? I think when when when you start to when you start to like When you dim the men in a culture Anything can come in there.. It's like when you dim the warriors who are standing at the gate, anything can slip in there You know, And then they come in and now they got the women on only fans because because they're not in a relationship and there's not like a provider and there's not like a leader and you're not part of like a we're doing this together, right? And then like everything's for sale. It's like, what's for sale now, you know And I don't mean that I' it's not none of that's negativity at anybody. It's just like u you know, It's just like, u, I don't know, do I sound judgmental? I'm just kind of think I think it all makes me just like I feel like we're stronger than this, but we are in a war Well, I think what you're highlighting and what I'm hearing you say is so many of our young men in particular, they lack confidence in themselves They're full of shame. Right? They don't have the they can't handle rejection. Right, The world needs healthy, strong men. And pornography abuse is emasculating our men today.ess I'm saying? That was definitely the case for me. one hundred percent. But here's the deal. And I need your listeners to hear this, right man. Yeah. amen. because I don't want to get stuck in the dour parts of it and that things are not healable because that's not the truth. That's not the truth. The truth is it is time to reclaim your damn manhood. Tpe shit You know, sereriously. No, I feel you. Enough is enough. Right, Eough is enough right now There's a cess pool out there that are killing our men today So let me tell you in my own journey When I got the right type of help, I was able to work through these sexual dysfunction When I got the right type of help, I was able to be in a healthy relationship where I felt good about myself as a partner, as a man. So it's not just like Steve stops watching porn and everything fixes Excel. Right. Don't work that way.. It's a process of retraining your brain your body and your relationship to intimacy. Amen. What were some of the first like the initial moments? Was there a kind of like a day or a time in a rehab? Beause you went to some different, is it okay to say you went to some different rehabs? I Dm. You did. boy. Steve was a animal out there in the part like his old party and stories are great, bro. That's right. You have some great ones. You know And I'm not talking just sex I'm not talking sexual. I'm talking like just your AA party and stories. And sometimes we tell those war stories because it keeps you out of the battle percent And you gotta laugh at him now. Oh, dude, if I go to an AA meeting and I laugh at my friends about like times where we used to do stupid stuff or something ridiculous' right The feeling I get laughing with friends. I leave out of there. I don't wantan to drink. I don't to use. I don't wan to do anything harmful to myself because I've just felt connection and that gives me something that I'm supposed to have. So like you ever se like when maybe Theovon or the Red Hot Chil peppers go on tour, they have t shirts that list all the cities they visited. Yeah. I did that with rehabs. Yeah. So I mean, come on, dude. And so what was your tour call? Do you have a tour I don't have a name for it M maybe you could help me out with that. And so, you know, it's just the journey' the journey, man. Yeah. And so once again, it's it's, you know It's about perseverance and not giving up. But I'll tell you some things that are interesting that when I was able to get the right type of help, as it relates to my addiction I was able to stabilize my arousal Stabilize your arousalus. Okay. When tellell tell me what that means kind you say that. You know, I was pornography abuse so distorted My view of women Pornography abuse had me in a constant place of euphoric recall and fantasy Right? And so I had to learn how to not rely on that kind of dopamine fueled kind of energy to deal with life. I had to learn how to build sensation for sexual experiences to be present amen in sexual experiences. So when I got into recovery Dude, my sex life was so enjoyable, right? I learned how to kind of make love and connection and kissing and sensuality, all kind of beautiful stuff. When you get into recovery oftentimes here, you have better erections and more satisfying sex That's what I want. I want that super erection. That's it. And you hear all the time when guys get into recovery and sustain recovery, it's so much more enjoyable. They're present for it. They're not full of shame confidence that comes from it. Yeah. that's what I Yeah, I want that wiener that's like plays the game. likeike I feel like my wiener is like a designated hitter. likeike it'll get up to the plate. It's kind of like, but it knows it's not going to be out in the fet. It's just like showing up for the frickaking you know. Otani's a DH sometimes. Otani is? Yes So Well, what are you trying to say? I got a small w? wanted to say that. I'm not sure what I was saying with that. Although he hits a lot of home runs. So here we go. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. We might take that part out, which is fine. So so you're saying like you know and you noticed that like Do you remember do you remember like the first experience where you kind of noticeed something small that you were like, o wow, these things that I'm doing in recovery are working And then what were some of the things that you were doing in recovery? Well I did a bunch in recovery, right? And so I did a lot of therapy. I was really active in twelve step recovery. I you I had my own personal coaches that were really helpful And I'll tell you I believe that Recovery is a team sport. I think men need other men to become better men. Aen. I think men need vulnerability role models. Men need love and support. Men need around other men that have similar life experiences around sex to transcend the shame that's keeping alive small. Praise God. I think that's reallyally, really important. I think men heal best in community as it relates to sexual compulsivity And so it's so hard to heal and shame by yourself You can't. I don't think you can. I know, mana'. I don't think you can'. tougher people, Yeah. so I think, you know, in conjunction with that, so many men today are so isolated and so lonely And so that's the driver of some of these behaviors. So once again, the roadmap to healing has to lay the groundwork for connection and community. And so when you practice being part of something bigger than yourself. You practice honesty. You practice vulnerability. It gets modeled to you. Really important for men to see other men living this way. Like in recovery circles and st. A hundred percent. Oh, yeah, man. Oh, sometimes man, I'll be in a meeting and it's like some guy will say something My friend James Bashera, he always tells me He says, we are the keys to each other's locks. That's what he says That's sweet. It's one of the best things, man. I think about it every single day, you know, It's like something that gives me a hope I think a lot of times. Yeah, because it's like someomebody will say something man that like Something inside of me' been trying to say my whole life and I just couldn't put the right few words together. It doesn't even have to be big huge words or fancy words. Sometimes it's just a simple thing, but somebody will say it part of me will exhale that's been waiting to exhale for so long. How sweet is that? Yeah. Oh it's amazing, man. So yeah, I can't iterate how much recovery and the community, right? Yeah. And then the fact that like Dude sometimes like I'll notice like especially these days we get so caught up in our own worlds, but it almost feels like a gift when I think about when somebody else comes into my mind or heart. Like there's times where I purposely sit down I want to think about people and stuff. But if I'm just like I'll be like, oh, I just saw them the other day and they mentioned this. Let me call and check in about it. orr just something that's like if it's about somebody else Bh That's like the When that happens naturally in my head, it's the best thing that ever happened to me And it's just because of community It only happens if I go to those meetings if I'm interacting with guys. That's right. If I'm a part of community, right? And you need guys in your life like, okay, Theo, enough with the show. What's really going on? Right? You need guys like that. Oh, dude, to tell somebody that brah, I'm fucking Yeah, like this I was in a meeting this morning, man, I'm trying to let me think about what I said if I'm really honest, right? I got into a meeting. A lot of times I'll do a Zoom in the mornings. You and I go to one that' similar. Is that okay to say? Please. And I'll be in the gym. I'll work out while I'm in there. so I'll listen because it helps me get two things done. It makes me feel pretty like I'm doing something. What I say today, oh, I'm trying to keep some negative things out of my head. so I'm staying focused. I'm staying on a path Like I'm I'm staying active because if I stay active, I stand a better chance when those things come into my head And I was trying to be honest to guys. likeike, hey, these are some of the things that I've been thinking about. I know that these things grow if I don't share about them at this level this level of being a seed, I know it'll grow it'll grow into a cactus that I don't want inside of me. So I have to share it at a seed, right? I' to learn a lot of times. I forget jugle a lot of cactuses because but learning to share something at a seed level calling it out early Calling it out early. Yes. And then just set like Yeah, like I'm so sick of myself, but I feel like I'm the only person that I have And that was like, and I know it's not true, but to share even if it's a feeling, right because once I sharered this feeling, I know it's not true. I have a ton I have a lot of friends. I have people that love me. Sometimes I have to share what a feeling is, right? So it doesn't because that feeling sometes can grow if I don't share it, it sits in there You know? Anyway, does it make any sense? I make, you know, it's so interesting as as you're as you're sharing, I'm just thinking about this concept of like Recovery is about This journey towards healthy masculinity And when you think about like like the word masculinity often gets conflated with toxicity today Which I think is kind of unfair. Oh, it's unfair. and I think it's by design. That's right. Masculinine to me, is what you just talked about honesty, integrity, vulnerability, courage, being a protector, being a provider, being a great friend, showing up for others, and living a life that's bigger than just yours. Yeah. And so when you think about like this journey of recovery, this journey to becoming a healthy man What a beautiful journey it is, right? You think about like, you, porn abuse teaches us and trains us to objectify and disrespect women I think healthy masculinia is about humanizing women. Women are beautiful and amazing. Yeah, and we came from a woman. like I wonder what the effects are. See if you could find something about this. What are the effects of pornography on young men's relationship with their mothers? of watching pornography You know what I'm saying? Like if you start ' it's like, I do notice when I'm healthy and I'm taking care of myself, I'm able to view the women in my life differently, right? And I'm able to view them how they should be viewed. Andy I'm telling you this right now that Shopify. Shopify. is hands down the best place to start and grow a business these days. If you're trying to start your own thing, you need to know them We use them. they've helped us put a store together and have it adjust as we adjust When things are busy or, we can up it and when things are not as busy, we can down it. Shop it f is the platform where you really own everything, your store, your community, all of it Plus Shopify Get your products in front of shoppers wherever they are. Google, YouTube, TikTok, shop. The shop app. and even Chat G Pi. J Ji We use them for our merch store. Yp, I told you that Shopify they made me realize, look, you can't do it alone. Thought about starting a business. This is your sign. Get started today at shhopify d. com slash Theo That's shhopify dot com slash T Eo Today's episode is brought to you by Manscaped The men's grooming brand trusted by over thirteen million men worldwide. That's a lot of men. Now let's be real. a lot of these grooming tools, they overc compplicate stuff and they and they don't perform that well Some of you got to whistle into the back end of it to even get them started or something or they run on diesel or? it's too much So if you've got a beard or you're thinking about upgrading your You're set up at the house to take care of your Heer. The new Beard Hedger plus from Manscaped. Well, it's just dag gummed, worth checking out I've used a lot of tremors and this andates and, you know, just Butter knife use it all. I've sharpened a butter knife and tried to take care, you know Things get clunky. This one's simple. Yep. I've been using one I've had it for two weeks now. If you want something simple that actually works and upgrades your routine, the beard hedger plus is the way to go Head to mananscape dot com and use code Theo to get fifteen percent off and free shipping that's fifteen percent off your entire order plus free shipping with code Theo at mananscaped dot com O if you need it today, you can just Go find manscaped at a store near you You know, I think a lot of guys are in hiding. I think a lot of us are afraid to say that We know that we're in a war. and everybody's going and fighting behind closed doors. And that's kind of crazy. When you think about that, that's kind of when you scary, It's scary. scary. Right? scary. And how is there a way to win it that way? I don't know. Well, you know, I could tell you from the life I live today I mean, I don't feel like I'm in a war, you know, I have a life that's kind of rooted in love. Bro, you've changed so much since I met you, man. Yeah. I have. You give me hope for the life I could live, man. That's right. And you know, you really do. I'm glad. You do. And you were always everybody's favorite. You you said earlier that people cared about you or like there was something there was always somebody you like Your family' always, you were like the guy in the meetings, dude. It was like, because we went to meetings that had like some fancy people in them. Real fancy. Some tall people too. Oh yeah, tall guys, all types ofne tall guy anyway. Yeah. couple of real grade A perverts, right? Cim de la Cme, right? That's right.ro And it was but bro, we got in those rooms and we here's the thing, we laughed in there people were honest, we laughed But yeah, you were always was like, dude, I wish I could be friend with Steve. That's sweet. It was tr. Thank you. And you just made this it's so important to laugh in recovery. Oh, dude, people you got to realize this shit, it is people laugh so much. It's not just his dour thing. No. No. becausecause this stuff is dark, it's heavy And laughing at each other. I think laughghter is so good for the soul, man. You read the news right now. It's so heavy. You listen to the news, it's so heavy. Finding a place to be lighthearted, to have fun and to laugh is so healing. Oh. Yeah, man. You know many guys I struggle with that I talk to and work with that are struggling. And if I can get them on phone, I can get them to laugh. Amen. Oh, dude. Oh yeah. It just takes it from a nine out of a ten to a six out of a ten You know Y. And it's just so important to let the air out of the balloon with laughter. What are the things do how do guys not realize Okay here Trevin found something right here. I'm going to interject real quick here. to go back because I'd never thought about that before Does it affect the way I look at my My sister, my mother, women in my life and world could be your teachher or anyone, if you're consuming pornography, how porn shaped beliefs affect views of mothers. This article explains that frequent exposure to pornography reinforces rigid gender norms and the objectification of women or where women are seen primarily as sexual objects rather than full complex people Yeah As these attitudes become part of a teenage boy's belief system, he may begin to see women, including his mother through a more dehumanized, stereotyped lens, weakening genuine mutual respect And I'll tell you, the challenge today with what you just read is so many Men today started watching porn when they're ten, eleven, twelve years old. right? That was like they're part of a generation where the iPhone just came out. And so they had access to porn at this very early stage of their life. And so by the time you get to work with them in treatment or therapy And you hear about like their childhood, they've had pretty normal childhood, normal, right? Not a lot of trauma. as we would understand trauma. The trauma is the porn that they started watching at ten years old. And it's just kind of intense porn. how many guys you hear like ten, eleven, twelve years old watching rapeook I mean, how painful is that when you think about that? Well, yeah, you have to know, oh, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable And you have to know that these companies, and I'm not setting myself apart from anybody, like I've been down these roads, you know But you have to know that these companies, it is this is strategy by them. This is this is I believe, I don't think that the people that work in porn or sex work or anything like that. I don I don't have any ill thoughts or any any of that towards anybody like that that's involved in it I just think as a en mas that They don't have the best these companies don't have the best interest for us, right? Like a lot of the pornography now it's like mother son, grandmother son. you know, you can't unsee that. Right. Right. And it also makes you think it's like, well, these are the most important relationships in the world boss secretary, you know, or just like whatever it is, sisters You know, it's like they're taking the most valuable relationships that have been given to us B our creator and by the world And even by science and they're trying to manipulate those that they don't have any value to us other than sexual some sexual P perversion And if you're twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old consuming this stuff, yeah, how are you supposed to process that? Yeah, just even seeing theds Wh you're looking at pornography, you see the word mother, son, father, daught. It's all like it's all of strategy. The devil is at work. I believe that, you know, it's the dark arts Um I'm not saying that I don't wade through the waters of them and, you know, but that's one thing you said. it's like we continue to fight. We don't give up You know, and you learned so much along the way. Yeah. Yeah, beforefore we keep moving on one, I want to ask you, Steve, what are there things that could be happening that mothers or fathers might not see? that how their use of pornography or like checking out like that, sexually checking out of like their environment. you know, their use of watching pornography could be affecting things with their interactions with their children or their home life Yeah, totally. You know, it's so interesting as a as sometim as you don't correlate that, No, you don't. what I'm saying? Im th, M, I'm marriage't working, but separately, I'm watching porn. That's right. And so when you think about the idea of healthy masculinity, being in recovery and being a father, right? I'm a new father right now. And you know, my son's young,s about a year right now, but just the responsibility I have in modeling to him how you treat a woman Really important, right? the kindness that I show his wife, gettingting to see affection, touch, All that stuff is really important. don't know I know your story from your childhood, you know my story from my childhood. That wasn't necessarily model to us. And so if you're watching pornography, right? And as a result of that, it's distorting your view of women can be challenging, right? You think maybe they don't know. Tust me, they know. I may not you're watching porn, but that energy you have that you can't hide that. Yeah it's a little bit of shame. It's a little bit of if I'm keeping something secret. That's right. It's a little bit of something'song and I'm it's a little bit of I'm scared somebody's gonna to figure this out and I don't even know what it is. Well you know what happens too also, guys that abuse porn They're just not present for their lives. Yeah. They're not showing up for their kids, right? They're on their phones. they're consumed in fantasy. They're not present. They're missing life. Yeah. You're missing life. And so when you guys get into recovery, dude, you see this all the time, they start coaching flag football teams and loving it. They're able to show up in their lives and be present. They're better fathers, they're better husbands. They're emotionally regulated. they're not involved. It's almost like porn is like it's like you're weiener playing video games It's not real. If you walked into a room every day and your're ween is playing a video game, at some point you'd be like, turn it off and get the fuck up and go outside. You know what I'm saying? Like you would tell you what your mate depends on what video game. That's a good. if it's Castlevane or something. Yeah. But I'm just saying like, anyway, I don't know what I'm saying. That's one thing I noticed in in meetings what I've been in, when people share, and people start to get better. they start to say, man Like today, I had the desire to spend time with my kids, to engage, to go outside and do this with my daughter, to like flirt with my wife in the kitchen. like I walk in house and there's a look on my face and I'm excited to see this person that loves me. justust little things like that that I've heard guys share in meetings that are like Just let me know that u that recovery's real, you know? And the joy of living. Yeah. what have you seen recovery look like for people? Like what are some testimonials that you've experienced in the rooms? Yeah and even through valor. Yeah Yeah. And so lots of good stuff. let me think of a few good ones that might be Well, I'll share a story. onene of our first clients, sixty two year old man been. abusing Pn for about forty years And long time, you know. And by the time he got to Valor, he was six years sober in alcohol syonymous. But he was in so much pain He had not been divorced for ten years, had not had sex in ten years, and was so full of shame. And when I first met with him, you know, I were trying to get some goals. L what do you want to try to accomplish here? And I said,, I want to stop watching porn And I said, awwesome. We're going to help you do that What else? Tell me what to play with. he just couldn't get there. Just make something up. Tell me a long term goal. If you had like a genie in a bottle, you had a wish. G me something. I'll never forget what he said. He said, you know something, Steve For as long as I can remember now, On Sundays, I go grocery shopping. by myself for the week. And I see families shopping and couples shopping and it's so lonely He goes, one day shopping withith the girl I'm dating. Hm. I said, okay You know about eight months later, that guy sent me a sc shot of him and his girlfriend grocery shopping. Broke me And I remember telling my wife this story and just crying And she's like, what's coming up for you? And she can't really understand because Two things I know that pain of loneliness And I know how good it feels to be free of it. Wow Great story Love that story. I'm want try offer here That's what's on offer here, huh? Yeah, the joys of living, finding love. Another great story. hear you hear this with consistency, you know, I get a phone call with a guy that's maybe sober six, nine months. this one guy in particular. and he says, Steve, you know, lastast night I was on the couch staring at my wife And it's like I'm seeing her for the first time Can't believe how pretty she is. Wow. To me Hearing that brings me so much joy when you kind of that fog lifts, that porn induced shame based fog lifts, and you can actually see life in color versus black and white What a gift, you know Yeah, man. And then you see guys that get time. This is what drives me wild. They get time, they get six months, nine months a year away from pornography, and wild stuff starts happening. They go back to grad school They launch a new business. They get a big raise what the hell has I gotta do with you not watching porn? Yeah. The answer's everything Because what's happening now is you're transcending the shame that's keeping your life small. You always hear like a guy all of a sudden, guy lacks confidence in himself. He's so full of shame, lives a double life. He walks into a restaurant, can never actually make eye contact with that woman at the bar. He maybe looks over, puts his head down and walks to his table. He's now nine months sober, right He makes eye contact, walks over and introduces himself. Yeah And they're now engaged Let's go. These are the stories of recovery It didn't mention anything about not watching porn. Not watching porn is just the point of entry Learning how to live a life that you don't need to escape from is what recovery iss all about. Recovery is about learning how to experience the joys of love and connection. So one simple question, I tell guys all the time, it's real simple. It's real simple. Is your porn news bringing you closer to or further away from the man you wna be And if you don't like the answer to that question What do you want to do about it Yeah Yes, it's u I've been in a lot of the meetings where I've seen guys share about stuff and You've seen a guy have a new experience, you know? It's best. When does a lot of this start is there a time that you notice how and when a lot of this starts for a lot of guys, Steve, haveave you been able to put together any theories about that? Younger and younger You know, because you've talked a lot about Valor on your podcast, we have seen a lot of younger men in their twenties. When I first started Valor, I thought I would work with guys like me, older professional men that are dealing with a porn addiction, sexual compulsivity, and need to get help. And we've worked with a fair amount of that But because of your fan base, there are a lot of single men in their twenties. And um challenging dynamic because they're not married. they're not in a relationship. There's no external consequences And they've been doing this for like tenen, fifteen years. Right And so it's like, you know They've been in full blown addiction for over a decade and they're twenty two years old. I don't even realize it. I don't realize it. That's the craziest part. Wild It's just like a regular habit. It's like taking a melaton and one hundred percent, it's just part of their life. Yeah. It has rewired and conditioned their brain and they're full of so much shame and they lack such confidence in themselves. So breaking them free of porn. It's interesting. how do you motivate and inspire a guy like that to stay on this journey How do you create motivation in their life to continue on this path? evenven though their path can be choppy at times? Yes. How do you get that guy to continue to show up and not be in shame if he watches a little bit of porn? rightight? That guy can be getting better Watching eighty percent to ninety percent less porn over any given month, great job, keepeep coming back. If you return to the behavior and you relapse or return to use Own it quickly. talkalk about it, leararn from it and keep growing. Yeah. And so motivating younger men is been a little different and to create inspiration because here's the truth. they're so isolated and so disconnected They have significantly less friends than decades before. Everything is kind of online. Everything is virtual. And so the loneliness is profound Well, this's part of existence. It's not like, I think some people you don't even notice that you're lonely anymore. That's one of the wildest things. You'll spend all day by yourself, but you won't really notice that you'reone because you have some interactions, you see people, you see them. So There's all this hijacking of things that are real that would normally make you feel like you have are not alone. You see people, you hear voices, you know, I mean, you're you know, you can even engage I hearing voices is perhaps the best It's like you can see people on your phone or on your computer, you can you can do FaceTime, like you can so there's all these like these secondeary little pieces But the connection tr the reality And remote work certainly doesn't help. I mean, there are guys that just don't leave their home Well yeah, it's like you could basically go to work online, you could get off work, get some ordersome food online, then you could book at pornography or something go to bed, and that's your day and that's your existence, and you're just sort of this thing But's so much we're supposed to be so much more than that. I think some of it has become almost this this habit that we don't even know that we're in. Yeah, I could see that. And I mean I've yeah, and I'm not preaching it anybody. I think it's just like I don't know, just like the awareness that you could be in something and not realize it is something kind of wild Yeah, I think that's that's that's absolutely true. And u What are some what are I want to ask you outside of Valor because you run Valor Recovery at your program. and And thank you so much. I know there was a lot of guys like who kind of came in through the podcast who you like were trying to help and offer recovery too. So thank you so much for having conversations with those guys over the years And by the way, so many of those guys are killing it right now. Are they? Yes, they are And I'm going to say this to you because it needs to be heard There are so many men that because of your vulnerability on this podcast talking about your challenges around that, gave them the courage to reach out and ask for help So your vulnerability is a gift to this world Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, some of this scary to be vulnerable. I don't know. it's not scary. It's like I don't know. I don't know any other way to live really. You know I don't think I know any other way to live I don't know. I don't know. sometimes I think I share too much probably by Well, I could tell you as it relates to this topic, I can't tell you how many conversations we've had in the thousands now, where the conversation starts Theo said it was okay to talk about this I've shared those stories with you over the years. Yeah, I know yeah. I appreciate it. That's important, man Yeah,'s important stuff. What a gift Yes. I, uh Yeah, I mean, it makes it's tough to know that a lot of people are hurting, you know? It's tough to know that we've all hurt You know, it's tough to know that most of the people that I love the most have have have hurt. A lot of us, you know, me included. Um And we didn't just end up, you know Yeah, I'm just glad. I've met a lot of good guys through recovery You know, there wouldn't be a program, you know, if you didn't do it That's right. And the great thing about recovery is you can live a life that's superior to the life you were living. Yeah, That's the truth. That's the beauty of it And so it's not easy sometimes to get there, but if you stay the course, you don't give up, you keep leaning into this, you're gonna build a life that brings you joy where you don't need to engage in behaviors to numb the pain that you're in That's a process. Yeah What are some of the triggers that you see that you notice? Is that aid to ask? Yeah, I can know there's just a patterns right? So many men struggle with profound loneliness and boredom. They're disconnected, they're alone. And so when you look at these urges, right, there tends to be a predictability to when you're vulnerable to them Right? So late at night scrolling on your phone. Dude, leave the phone, donon't bring the phone the bedroom. Y, Sut it down. Simple fix. Well, Steve, I work all week long, Friday nights, I'm by myself and there's just this period of time right now of unstructured time where I'm really vulnerable Okay, let's make a plan around that. Why whyy don't you book dinner? Why don't you book the evening with a friend of yours? so you're not alone right now. Make some a dinner date with a friend right now. getet out of the house, right? And so there's just these patterns that men experience as it relates to stress Boredom and loneliness. And so when you pull up and kind of look at this stuff, right and learn from this stuff, you can men don't plan to fail, they fail to plan And so working with people that understand this can go a long way to putting you on the path to being successful. Amen. The other thing that's really tricky today is was going for a walk with a friend, justust go for a walk. Do my best time.ay we go for a walk after this, me Yeah I'm gonna walk with you. Yeah. G a little time? No I'll make time. I' love it, dude. Yeah, bro. Thank you, bro. Dude, there's nothing better than going for a walk with one of your friends. It might seem like, and even if y'all are straight, y'all can do it. If not straight, you could do it. But some of that stuff got hijacked by the gay community, I think. likeike just going for a walk with your buddy. I'm not saying it did. But it got slightly hijacked Hey, we got to take our we gott to take our pedestrian rights back. But anyway, saying We don't make triggers. Oh yeah. So that's one for me, I've noticed things that would lead me to do masturbation or be touching my body sometimes like that looking in pornography, stress, right I'm up later than I need to be. A lot of times I'll have a deal with myself. I have a plan to go to bed. shhit'll happen., she'll happen with work. N nextxt you, I'm up forty five minutes later I can't handle it, right? So now it's like, I got to go to sleep. I'll think that masturbation will help me go to sleep, right? What else? social media Yeah, social media just I know I know that that keeps me uplate. So I dont I do a pretty good job of that. like I know now when I when I open up there's nothing super good in there You know, I'll maybe say, he, all right, I'm going go for thirty seconds. you find one thing that's kind of engaging and I'm shutting it down. I'm starting to realize that what a Pandora's box it is. It really is. And you know, the science will support that, like these dopamine spikes from this endless scrolling on social media. And you look at the sexual content on social media. It may not be full porn, but it can be pretty explicit. Yeah. And so it's a real problem because it's this funnel And oftentim guys in early recovery get tripped up because they're on Instagram right now. There's this kind of image, which is a link to an On fans' account, and all of a sudden they're back in the dance. And so that's really important. That's kind of endless scrolling, endless seeking novelty can be really challenging Because in alnative the alternative is though you have to think about what that is. and you have to plan for that in your head. I notice for myself, right? So if I'm not going to be scrolling, I might just be laying there in my bed, right? And what's wrong with that? There's nothing wrong with it. But at first it can feel a bit uncomfortable. Oh, I should be doing something. Those are the feelings I go through. I should be doing something, right and, you know You're like, what would that be? So At first it's a little tough. Now sometimes my mind will start to just imagine or think of things, which is kind of nice, right? Like if it's not negative stuff, it's like my mind it's like daydreaming or something. It used to be something people did a lot, daydreaming. But so that can happen or I can read or I can just go to sleep. but there is a little bit of like a uncomfortable moment sometimes where it's like A, I should be doing something. But I don't I'm not really playing I don't really mean I should be doing something. mean I'm usually mean I should just be looking at something on my phone Can you tolerate the boredom in that moment? or do you need to go get a quick fix? If I'm doing meditation pretty regularly now. good. So I'm having a little bitler more toleration with it. It's important. Yeah. a little more toleration with it. like the short form videos, these kind of quick fixes on all these social media is such a distraction. Yeah Right? And so getting time away from your phone Oh yeah, that's key. Long form reading Hobbies, creativity, working on projects, I think are so healthy for you. Yeah, I think yeah, doing things, building a little bird house, doing something like that, getting excited about leap year, just doing regular shit. When is leap huh? When is next leap year? We'll never know, bro. Be before you know it it's gone. That's right. That's how it is.. I miss a lot of leap years over the years. Who hasn't, twin U let's look at some of the stats. What did you have? Trevin? I want to get a little bit of information here Um I want to say this just so people to give a little bit more context to pornography overall, porn hub was the fifth most visited website in the world by december twenty twenty, just so people don't think that we are at war, right? Some people think like, o, America, we're safe, We're at war. Born Hub had about one hundred seventy million visits per day and sixty two billion visits per year. And that was twenty twenty The amount of content uploaded to por of in a single year would take about one hundred and sixty nine years to watch if you played the videos back to back. Um, And this was this was some information because there's sometimes you're watching stuff on there where the people in it have not consented to it being put online some or that it was even recorded and sometimes that it's not that they haven't consented even, uh, to the sex in the video. right. The Broward County Florida case, this was a case. a fifteen year old girl missing for a year was found only after a porn hub user recognized her and tipped off her mother. Police eventually found her in fifty eight monetized videos on the site So just to know how porn Hub is okay with operating. Lila Mclewaite who came on here And she has done a great job with exposing the porn industry For the negative aspects of it. The London Sunday Times invvestigation, reporters were able to find dozens of illegal videos on the site within minutes, including videos of children as young as three that were on on porn hub Um So just to let you know like the kind of stuff that can be happening on there Oh nice. So Lila tested that.. Oh, at the time, Lilla tested the upload flow to just see how easy it was to just put something up Pople took upload a video was an email address. there was no ID or age verification, no consent verification required for people in the videos Anyone with a smartphone can upload a video under ten minutes from anywhere in the world. Anyway, it just gives a little more context to what we're even watching. becausecause sometimes you're looking at something and you don't even really know what it is. Or where it came from? Or where it came from, right? And if you can add some context to it, it makes it a little bit different. You know, so many of those people are been either physically or sexually abused in their childhood have been trafficked. this is not sometimes this is non consent. And there's just a gross element to a lot of it. There is. and you you kind of get tricked in a little, I think, in a way. You don't maybe realize it. I don't know, especially if if you're kind of susceptible Um Oh yeah, this right here. I remember this Visa and MasterCard suspend payments for ad purchases on porn Hub and Mine Geek amid controversy said Mastercard said there'sday card payments for advertising on porn hub and its parent company, Mine Geek would be suspended after a lawsuit stokeed controversy over whether the payments giants could be facilitating child pornography Hm Visa condemns sex trafficking, sexual exploitation and child sexual abuse It is illegal and Visa does not permit the use of our network for illegal activity because Visa was being accepted on these websites So it's kind of crazy. It's like, okay So you're saying that if this is happening on these websites, then you're okay with your Kind of complicit. Right. You're kind of complicit. Give me an update on that if you can. And who owns Mind Geek changeed to AO? I remember that AY LO, Who owns that company Ethical capital partners. Of course they do. Of course they do. Unbelievable. Parent organization is ethical capapital partartners. Ky ECP leadership is Fadi Monsur, managing partner, Rocco Milambro and Solomon Friedman Um throughrough its parent company, ECP owns some of the most highly trafficked digital networks in the adult entertainment industry, including pornhub, RedTube, U porn brrowsers, and men. comot Find photos of those guys if you can just so we can put the faces with just who they are. And that's all according to Wite. pedia Okay, that's all Google and Wikipedia. so Yeah, give me pictures of the three guys. Let's put them up just so people know who is who feels like it's okay, you know And I do want to say most recently I saw there was a there was an artic. there was a story I saw where One of the financial companies failed to stop a payment for Was it only fans It was something that was Mastercard Visa failed to stop payments on only fans for child sex abuse contents as a whistleblower Let me see, Mastercard and Visa failed to stop their payment networks from laundering proceeds from child sex abuse material and sex trafficking on the popular website. onlyn fans, according to allegations in a previously unisclosed whist whistleblower compliant complaint filled with the U S. Treasurys Financial Crimes unit. The complaint was filed in january twenty twenty three. The complaint said the whistleblower and other anti trafficking experts, including U.S. federal agents alerted Visa and mastercard to unlawful content on only fans in a series of calls in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two The federal agents corroborated the presence of child sexual abuse material on only fans The complaint said, it also drew heavily on a twenty twenty two study by an anti trafficking group that said it had found a high volume of only fans accounts with common indicators of child sexual abuse material. or sex trafficking, The whistleblower said he helped with the study, which was shared with the card companies Um In the interview, the whistleblower said the agencies never contacted him to discuss his complaint c companies had the power to turn off the switch to stop illicit material from being monetized So there's just, you know, it goes to the place, I guess there's like there's a business element to it Visa spokesperson said financial institutions and merchants that don't comply with Visa's robust compliance requirements will be terminated from its network. The company uses best in class controls to deter, detect and remediate illegal activity If there's anything else I should in there, let me know. Since the whistleblower complain was filed, Ruters uncovered more allegations of child sexual abuse and sex trafficking on only fans, a porn driven site that generates money through subscriptions and payer view content. I mean, those companies also so big. I bet it's so hard to Police everything. Sure And that was just a complaint, Trevin That's right, not a ruling But it was officially filed. It's on the record Okay, got it. Okay, thank you so much. U tellell me a little bit about Valor recovery. And this episode was not intended at all to be an ad for your company or anything like that.. But you know, this is just such a thing and you're the guy that I know and we've been friends for so long. But tell me about Valor and thank you for starting it. Yeah, thank you Valor Recovery is a company I founded many years ago now that helps men that are struggling with pornography, abuse and sexual compulsivity. It's a virtual program You know What we have found over the years is so many men struggle getting help for this, finding the right type of help. Using community based resources are challenging because of shame and stigma. Like what do you mean by that Like going into a meeting loco to a meeting locally, goingo to a program locally. Pe are just they're so concerned given the nature of this and they don't take advantage of those resources. So creating a virtual program that can be accessible with a click of a button right is amazing, right? And offering something that's more discreet just helps guys feel more comfortable getting help. And so virtual program, it's a coaching program. And the thing that's really unique about that what we have found is so many men benefit from coaching on this topic, different than therapy. therapy is very valuable as well, but coaching is around accountability, setting goals, learning new skills, and practicing those skills so you think and feel differently about yourself over time. Got it. Yeah you have to put something on the other side of the scale. That's one thing I've learned in recovery. I'm not saying I do it all the time. you can't just have you have to put something on the other side of the scale that has valuable weight to it. I think that's right. And so, you know, the program is unique. One of the unique aspects around it, everyveryone that works at Valor recovery is in long term sexual recovery. So these are men that have ten years, twenty years, in several cases, thirty years of sexual sobriety. Why is that important? It's just the shared life experience puts us in a very unique position to help people, to understand people because we've been there. are you. So collectively this team has helped thousands of people over their lifetimes deal with these challenges. right? So that's really important. It's a program that really is set up with small intimate groups so that men learen to be part of a community. Men learn how to connect with each other. You know The opposite of addiction is often not recovery. It's often said to be connection And so we're a program that offers small group settings, process groups, thiss curriculum around you how to deal with urges and triggers, identify root causes that are driving compulsions, curriculum around healthy intimacy, healthy sexuality, and healthy masculinity My men. And so we've had a lot of men come to this program and get better. It's something we take a lot of pride in. Now it's not easy work. promise you that, it's not easy work, but we take a lot of pride in helping men become the men God intended them to be. And whatever that word God means, you higher self, whatever that is, We help men put them in alignment with their higher self so they can go on and do good things in their lives Are there guys or women out there who may not have a problem specifically with porn But is there other things they could be having a problem with? Yeah. I think what you're asking me is if the can people be suffering from other behaviors other than pornography. that could be having the same outcome for them. That's correct. Yeah, that's what I'm asking.. Is it relationship compulsivity, infidelity in relationships, prostitution? I mean, there's just a host of behaviors that can manifest itself that are just really unhealthy for people And so man or woman doesn't necessarily have to be pornography. And so the answer is yes And there are just a lot of great resources out there for both men and women to deal with these issues, whether it's working with a therapist that may be trained in sexual compulsivity or sex addiction. There are great twelve step programs out there different fellowships for men and women, sex addicts anonymous, sex and love, addicts anonymous, sex aahholics anyous that men and women that are community based twelve step based programs that could be really valuable. They're great addult children of alcoholics. sorry to interrupt. I just't forget. There's a lot of important. Yeahah. Pe don't realize that there's things out there that it's like you might be like, well, I'm not this. I don't have this, but maybe my parent did and you lived in the shadows of it or you lived as a recipient of the byproducts of it. There's recovery stuff for that. And we're not saying everybody needs recovery, but we're saying that this some of this stuff is a big issue that's facing people and we both struggle with it. so shit, other people might. And that's right. And I think the one thing you can listen to this is not a life sentence, not a death sentence, man. You can get better You can actually get better and you can live that life that you've dreamed of. It's going to take work greatreat people out there to help you. Yes. And so if you're struggling, I mean, have the courage to reach out and get some help. Yeah. And we'll put links to like valor. We'll put links to sex and love addiction,, intimacy disorder, anonymous. we'll put a link to to some of those things in this so people can check it out. There's like some online like Zoom sex addiction meetings that you can go to. Can I share that? publicly? Yeah, there's those meetings you can go to you can just sit with your camera off and just listen and see what it's like. see how people are sharing and see what's going on Um Yeah, I just want to know that that stuff's out there. I think sometimes people don't even know that it's out there. I didn't know it existed You know, until you get into certain places and you're like, you know, I was realizing I was just having such a tough time in relationships and a relationship with myself It was like, It was so hard for me to get to know myself without like, u I always felt like I had to just prove who I was, even to me Like almost every day it was like Yeah. It was like, if I didn't I had to do something to show you who I was. I couldn't just be, right Um, I've had like that love what's it called love attraction love avoidance. What is it? Love avoidance. But what is it when you it's like, come here, go away or whatever that thing It's like, come here or go away. I whatever that shit was sounds awful. Yeah. Oh, but it was a lot of my relationships. Yeah And it was like, Hey, I need you over here. I want to be with you. But then the second somebody got close, I was like, thats I think for a lot of guys there's sexual anorexia What is that? I mean, just a complete avoidance of all sex Oh, I thought you're starving so you have sex or whatever. A good hamburger? You know, no. That's how that American pie scene came to be. Sexual anorexia is a term coined in nineteen seventy five by psychologist Nathan Hare to describe a fear or deep aversion sexual activity. It is considered a loss of appetite for sexual coact couct and it may result in a fear of intimacy. may result in a fear of intimacy or an aversion to any type of sexual interaction impulsive non sex. is an addiction of it itself Right? And so just think about like, you know, what we are striving for. right is a version of healthy sexuality that works for you. Yeah. know so many guys get into recovery and then that's it, I've stopped these behaviors and they can go for a while, but they're kind of unhappy and miserable. So unless you kind of lean in and challenge yourself to state, companionship, connection, healthy sex. That's what recovery is about. Yeah. That's how you put these behaviors in the rearview memory and never look back You have to replace it with something that brings you more joy and purpose. Amen Yeah. And a lot of times that will happen because you're the way the program's set up. It's like you interact with more people. you say yes to more things. It's like, you know, so it's like it's easier to say yes when you're not full of shame. Oh for sure. When you're feeling better about yourself because you're not putting that junk in your system with consistency You know, it just gives you your ability to show up as the best version of yourself. kindinda happens over time Yeah Yeah, it's a learning process, man. Yeah. And the thing is the program's always there. So if you if something happens or something, you know, I'm saying, if you have a setback or whatever's going on, it's always there. It's there. It's like unconditional. That's pretty cool. It' great. That's like that. Oh, here's a summary of how stories come here, go away the dynamics of fearful attachment I think this's what I had Uh, past tense, feearful attachment. Yeah, I don't think I have this anymore. Nice whichich is it's kind of crazy. It's like, now I feel like I used to never think I would do it's so funny when I was a kid, this is true. And when I was even a teen and young adult, I didn't understand how people could be married. It didn't even make sense to me at a level of like human affection I don't even understand. I remember I'd go watch people's families eat dinner instead I'd go sit and like watch Pep and Tommin or whatever, right? Beause it was it was like a I didn't even understand it Well, what was modeled to you in your child at home Now you understand it, nothing There it is I mean, nothing. In fact, the opposite. So like opposite of nothing. Yes. Less than nothing. Less than nothing, dude. someome weird integer. But dude to I and at the time I didn't even know I didn't even know what I was doing, but I was just so like It was like it was like watching somebody find something I don't know, see something foreign. And then And then slowly over time, it made sense to me. And then there was like times where I was like, I remember the first time I thought I wanted to have a family. blew my mind I'd never felt that in my life You now cannot wait till you get married and have a kid Yeah, we gota get it out there, boy. I cannot wait You going next just hey, you're gonna be. You have a heart as big as any person I know. Thanks, Bro. And the more that you get comfortable showing that side of you to a woman and build a life right now with that person, my goodness C to be incredible to be part of Yeah, we're gonna have to get a camper dude R at the road. That's it. Yeah, takeake that love on the road, brother. But no I feel you, man. Thankk you, bro. Yeah. Like, yeah, my first instinct is kind of joke sometimes when things get serious or something. and I used to be that way all the time. Now I'm not that way, you know, there's times where I can be in some of those spaces. but dude, I remember the first time I thought, man I would like that. Yeah It blew my mind but it's all because of just Things I've learned in meetings over time, you know thingsings that there's that there's a different way. Right. Um Yeah, what would you say somebody out there who's thinking, I think this is me, right? We're talking about porn addiction or some of this intimacy stuff. Yeah, what can they do to start getting some help? Yeah, there are lots of great resources out there. And we put Valor to Valor recovery is a great resource out there happappy to talk to anybody listening here to see if there's a way we can help you happy to refer you to other programs as well. if you need a higher level of care, right? There are great therapists out there. There's great twelve step communities out there. I think anybody that listening to this, the one thing I hope is that you have the courage to reach out and ask for help. Amen, bro. That's it. Dude and I want to say this. I want to say thank you. There was like, I have received messagage from so many guys that said, I called and I talked to Steve. I like he like You know, a lot of places, that's not the thing. No. Thank you early on. I promise you. I made a promise to you that I was going to handle your people that called me a podcast myself personally. Yeah. And I did. I appreciate that. I didn't. It was important. you know It it was rewarding. I learned so much about how these men are hurting and struggling and I also learned so much on how important your voice is in these men's lives And so Keep doing what you' doing, brother Well, thanks, man. Yeah, yeah, we're just learning as we go, you know, And we're off to do it alone.. So haven'ving had to do it alone with this show. This show helped me not be alone. This show gave me something to do like You know, there were times I probably would have been using or doing things that I, you know, like There's times it hasn't saved me from that, but there's been so many times where it has, you know, whereere it gave me like some sense of like value or purpose Even your voice matters, man And sometimes not even my voice just listening Just being somebody like I learn that at sometimes. Sometimes I still make mistakes on it, but let me just listen So other people can listen. Yeah, beautiful. You know And I don't mean that in any ego Tisqu, I just feel like it's just been like Yeah, when I was little, I just wanted to have a vice like I just L I want it's like Yeah, I was just, I think when I was really young, I was in so much pain and Just nobody could hear me, you know And I didn't even know it was wrong. I just knew that it hurt And then yeah, you get to like, uh And that's all I wanted. And God helped me have that You know? And so it's been like, it's not by accident, you're here. Yeah. We all have this belief like some reason like going it should have looked differently. It should be different than it than it was. And the truth is it all happened exactly the way it had to happen to be here right now Right? I look back at my history and be like, oh my God, like that should have looked all the money that I wasted on drugs or crazy behaviors. Well, if I had one dollar more, maybe I would have bought that line of Cke that had fentanyl If I had one dollar more, perhaps I don't meet my wife, have my son or start Valor recovery So who am I I go back and say that should have looked differently? Everything I went through, I had to go through to be here right now. The only way to put purpose to your pain is to have lived through that pain That's what you just shared. Thanks man. Yeah, amen. I'm glad you did, bro. I'm glad you stayed the course. Yeah Me too. Yeah I really am, man. I was super am. Mike Tyson said that same thing, man, when I talked to him He just said, man, I wouldn't trade any of it painful as parts of it were, as disgraceful as parts of it were. You know, I had to go through all of it. to be the man I am today. Yeah It's kind ofra I mean, it's yeah, I mean, it's unbelievable, really. It's kind of crazy. Yes. It's kind of crazy. You had to go through everything you. I know a lot about your child, I know a lot about your life, right? prepared you for this moment So it's crazy to go back and, Ohh, it should have looked differently. That's a good point, huh Wow, I think sometimes it's tough to yeah, you're so right. And sometimes I still will think that I don't know if I still will think that, but I still will suffer some of like there's still like some old pain that flares up. Me too And people sometimes would be like, you have to get over, you have to get rid of that. And it's like you can, but sometimes it's still a real thing. It's like just because you forgive and you move on, doesn't mean that there's sometimes still not some shit that hurts. That's right. And both things can be true. You could be living a good life and still be hurting at times from your past. Yeah It's not either or it's yes end. ye There's this idea in recovery that, you know, everything is rainbows and unicorns. Well Yeah That's not life. That's that life? Yeah Right? Part of life is discomfort. Part of life is Being uncomfortable. Yeah, and I wish they kind of would have told us that. Would you have joined if that was the sell? we know. If they would have told here's the d dude, you're not really gonna feel that much better about yourself. But come on in, try this. I'm not sure that's a good selling point Yeah, dude, they just show you your future and it's just you like, you're just crying behind to win Dixie in your truck. You got a better ex selling me on this recovery thing than that Dude, that's so true, bro U We had some calls man. These are calls. We have a hotline here nine eight five six six four nine five zero three That's line. We're coming up on ten years. I think we've had this podcast. When did this podcast start Of twenty sixteen. Wow, incredible That's crazy. incredible. In your place in LA? Yeah. inccredible. In my kitchen over there in Westwood. Westwood. We put those curtains up. Shout out to my ex girlfriend, Meghgan who would put up with me and when I would You know, it'd be like our one night of the week to spend together and I would You know, I would spend it doing this Yeah and then like get in bed like, you know, just You know, she was such a nice person. I know. She's the best. Yeah. She's the best. Let's playay a couple calls that have come in on the hotline and This may sound weird because it's like we're like one of those call in shows where we're like experts. We're not experts. We don't know anything. We're just two guys who are surviving and doing our best. Steve's doing better than me But let's play some of those calls if we can, please, Steve, if you'll sit here. Sean. Thanks, man Thank you, this is siege from New Mexico and I just want to say man've been happy great help And not come home I'm kind of drunk right now twelve you know, it's afternoon, about one, ten or whatever But I just want know seek for advice on some shit. Oh you know are going to addicted to porn and masturbation my entire life. and that led me to being addicted to alcohol in a way to cope maybe, I don't know, but You know, I was texting these Filipino ladies on some bullshit app And it turned into me sending them money and they sent me news and then it turns out it was a scam. Obviously I should have known that and I did know it before I was even went into it, but I don't even know if I'm addicted. I've been on a seven month bendor, I think I've only missed four days of drinking alcohol within the last seven months Hey, siege, thanks for the call, man. Yeah, I just appreciate you sharing so honestly. Steve, what do you think is like can addictions jump from one of the next? What have you noticed about that? That's kind of the thing that I'm taking away from just listening to this Yeah. And thank you, Siege bro. And just thanks for being honest and I think I'm going let Steve kind share some of his insights here your. You see that with frequency, just the relationship between alcohol drugs and compuls porn use. And so making recovery difficult. you know, that was the case for me, I had history of porn abuse, but also challenges with cocaine and alcohol and hard. Really hard. Yeah, because it'll be one can cause the other. Cck the egg. Yeah. Cck know the egg. and how many guys kind of because they're hung overver, turn to porn to try to feel better How many guys kind of make a bad decision like he did reaching out, giving money to this scam because he's under the influence of alcohol or drugs? It's just really hard. And one of the thing that he highlighted, these scams, how often we hear guys kind of being blackmailed because they got caught up reaching out to people, there's photos, there's information. It's dark stuff. It's really dark stuff. So it sounds like this person can really benefit getting help And here's the truth, you know, sometimes it's hard to address all this at once. Right. And so maybe you pick one. and maybe you start with alcohol and say, okay, I'm having some issues with alcohol. What can I do to get help? I mean, I'm a huge fan. as are you, alcohol is anonymous. Great resource right there Oftentimes you see guys kind of pourn you spike in early recovery coming off alcohol because it's just a way to numb. Oh yeah, I've had issues where it's like, I don't want to enngage in certain behavior, so I'll even masturbate to keep myself away from those behaviors. It's like sometimes you're you know, you're cutting off a chicken to save the horse or whatever it's called. I'd like to think of it as harm reduction. Yeah, harm reduction. Nothingong with that. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. Eespecially, you know, oftentimes, even with sexual recovery, sometimes you get sober off more detrimental behaviors first. You know, if a guy has issues with a married guy and you're dealing with things that might end the marriage, infidelity, streb clubs or a host of those behaviors, you know, getting sober off those first can be critically important and then over time, exploring your relationship with porn and masturbation Oftentimes point of masturbation can be a harm reduction tool not to engage in more harmful behaviors. Yeah Yeah, and it's all a process. And the good thing is even if you just go to A Ara, you go to twelve sta, you start learning about this. you start getting into the world of it You know, or if you go to like a SLA Zoom O if you call and talk to someone that works over at Valor, it's You know, you just start to get into the world of realizing that there's some hope for whatever's going on. Well this guy, you're not alone. Yeah, that's You're not alone, man. You You're not alone. I'm looking at two guys right here. You're not alone. I know, man, you're not alone. And anything is possible. That's right. You know, anything is still possible. But I'm going to quote one line that here. you say you say all the time Nothing changes If nothing changes. Nothing changes. Yeah And guess what I'll heard that in the rooms? That's right. So whatever, do something. Don't do nothing. Yeah. I can guarantee the one way nothing will improve is doing nothing. Yeah, that's for sure. I this ain't rocker science. Oh, dude, I've walked into some meeting rooms and like And then ten years later walked in again. That's right. walked in and said, man, think I need this, but I'm not sure. ten years later I'm back. fiveive years later I'm back. You hear that all the time of guys like, I knew fifteen years ago there was something wrong But I didn't I didn't step all the way in. That's okay. Yeah, it's okay. Here now. It takes what it takes. That's what they say too. That's right. It takes what it takes Um Let's take another call. Thank you, siege bro to This is Ashley I just wanted to call again and get some advice about my relationship. My boyriend of almost years now struggled a lot with M. and not Lost being able to control himself when it comes to porn or own hands and things like that M I love you so much and I just wanting to get your advice on think mom can change That's a nice. That's thoughtful of her to call What came up for you when you heard that U Just I thought it was nice how much she cares that she chose to call up. firstirst of all, I believe her. Sometimes you get a lot of calls, you say, you know, I don't know this person's realistic or not, but I just to me, I felt like she was genuine about it And it was kind of and can people change? She didn't really make it about her. you know, And she said about lust. like she understands the bigger picture of it. So it's obviously that she's putting some attention towards it to maybe even look go search and look online, see some ideas or read up on it or something becauseuse it's not just like, hey, this guy' watching porn. It's like he has a problem with lust. And it's fascinating to think about lust. What do you like when she says that, like what do you kind of think? Steve? like what is that about? But the first thing I felt was she was sharing I felt first thing I felt was a little sadness. Oh yeah, I did feel some sadness for her. I know she's going through a tough time. T. And thank you, Ashley for calling, sorry. I I should have said that first. Thinking about her boyfriend, the behaviors that she actually knows that he's engaging in are leading him down just a dark path And so first thing I was thinking about is wellow, Hop she has to be able to take care of herself You know, Otentimes you know, we focus so much on trying to get the significant others some help, which is important, directing him to really good resources out there. if he wants to get better, Does he recognize this as a problem And if he does, you know, get him some help there because guys can get better and your relationship can thrive at some point in time in the future as he does the work and hopefully you guys get to do the work together and grow closer together. Itesn't always work that way But there are some countless amazing stories where couples kind of do the work and their relationship gets better than it ever was before. That's the truth. That's the truth. That's the truth. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way, but as she was sharing, I just hope she's got place to go, a person to talk to, perhaps a therapist that she can just share, find ways to take care of herself in the process right now. And she stays on this journey. Yeah, and you know what? somet It's like the first time you have a real intimate conversation with somebody You know, I was at a meeting the other day and my friends and I were talking him They were saying after like, dude, we never even really talk like this. You know? And I was like, fuck, A, like recovery gave me the I've been waiting my whole life to talk about something that meant some. It gave me like the language too. think about growing up like the kind of man rules, right? Men don't cry. Men are tough. right? If you're sensitive, you are a Fill in the blank. Yeah and so if you see a Ford Festiva, you got a yelf something like that. Yeah. And so not a mustustang And so it's not a mustang. mustustang. And so you know, for so many men right, you know, where do we learn? How to be vulnerable? Where is it a safe place to be vulnerable? to be sensitive. The truth of the matter is, I'm a very sensitive guy. A lot of men in recovery or dealing withict are very sensitive men. And for so much of my life, I tried to hide part of me thinking it was a weakness Yeah. And I used drugs, I acted out in certain ways to numb the pain of that sensitivity. I can tell you right now, my sensitivity today is a superpower. Amen. becausecause it allows me to have emmpathy and to feel your experiences and pain given where I've been with this. Rack, dude Yeah, man, Facts bro And you have the best stories too dude. We didn't really telling you of them today. Thank God, because you'd probably have to filter them out. Yeah the best stories, dude. Yeah yeah. And we can we can take this out, but you have one story I remember about partying so hard in Miami that you and a friend went instead of like You guys bought more drugs and more diapers out on the dance foro, so you didn't have to Yeah, we bought dope. It was obviously laced with a laxative and we had a choice. We had a choice to either throw the drugs out O make these kind of makeshift diapers and keep the party going Needless to say, you know how that rest of the story goes. Just so you guys know, Steve is a real one. Steve is and that is the tip of the Eo Ga dude. That's the tip of the iceberg. Steve iss a real one Oh and what else was she was asking about something else though Oh, she was asking Do Do she think it's possible for him to get better? right? Did we answer all that? I am such a believer in the power of recovery. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no doubt. This whole episode, I think could maybe be beneficial to him if you want to share with him. You can tell him like it's a just say, Hey, Mattha, I want of you to listen to this U if you want, I don't know if I know him or not or if I've ever met him You know, you meet a lot of people, but um So Just say, hey man. Hey, this is something your girlfriend wanted you to listen to I've had issues with it So if you feel okay listening to it and check it out So you can send him that little clip right there and that can go along with this episode if you want. And then oh, lust, she talked about lust. Lust kind of gets hijacked or something, doesn't it We don't talk about lust too much, do we? Yeah,. Does it matter? Is this a word? It's just a word, but I'll tell you what's interesting How many guys come to me like Steve You don't understand. I think I'm just so horny Maybe. But what's probably closer to the truth is you're actually just really uncomfortable and you've sexualized that discomfort. Oh yeah. Every time you get uncomfortable, you end up jerkking off a looking at a pornography, then when you get uncfort, you're like,'m horny. It's like connected to in your brain And so, you know, And what happens when guys get into recovery get some time, you know, they stabilize. And they realize that they're not as horny as they think. Yeah 'cause you're no longer using as a tool to deal with your emotions, right Dude, they hijacked us, bro. The devil hijacked a lot of us, bro. You got to give props to the devil in a weird way because check on this one. They is you know. Yeah, they win this round. They they won this round. We won this round. They won this round Hey, what's going on? Po. My name is Donald So I have a situation my friend she's a long distance p shit We've been in togethera for three years first year and a half, I was just they'd se around I sh I told her a couple of times, you know, made me feel a bit proud of myself but But yeah, lately, you know, it's been a while and I've just been jerking off to be honest. Jking off a couple of times a day, honestly Not really sure what your thoughts are on that. I mean, it's better than cheating, but you know, I don't struggling out here. Yeah I've been watching Mom porn Okay. Yeah, dude, I think we've kind of we've talked about some of this. Thanks for calling Bro Donvan or Jonathan? Donald. Donald. Okay. Thankks for calling, Donald. I didn't know people saw the name Donald, but I'm glad they do I'm glad they do, bro and bring it back BYOD bro. What I'm saying is this, dude is u Yeah, sorry. this whole this this whole segment to me just it feels like it's very foreign. it feels like Here's the energy I don't like and this isn't the real energy of it. that we know something you don't, right? Like we're just two guys who fucking trying our best here. But we have shown up a lot to places to try our best So I'll give us a lot of credit with that. And Steve has done a great job of like transforming his whole life Yeah, dude, I just know if you do that, it just weakens the spirit. So something's uncomfortable in you. Something's uncomfortable in your spirit, right? And you're only going to get clues from it probably if you stop masterbait and stuff, you'll start to get some clues part is and this has been tough for me. The clues get scary and it sometimes it it's hard to handle. You don't know something's ah You know, Sometimes you just want to scream and sometimes there's like primeal stuff, you don't know what's going on And so you just you sedate yourself with like pornography or masturbations to keep yourself at bay Um But it can be different, right, Steve? Yeah, what I took from the call was this kind of idea like We can't really do this alone Uh Yeah because this just sounds like he's pretty capable of getting stuff done. That's right. And he's insightful. He's honest But he's running the show. right. And so, you know, I would strongly suggest to get some help You know, will power will only get you so far. Yeah, right? gettinget some time to understand what's driving these behaviors Get to the root cause of some of these challenges, get some professional help, great resources out. getet involved in the community, a men's group where you can kind of have some a band of brothers where you can kind of run stuff by and talk through these things. Tough to do this by yourself. Yeah What happens is it'll be ten years from now and you'll still be struggling with this stuff and you'll just lose time. That's broke. That is the truest thing. If you relate to some of this stuff If you relate to it at a pretty strong level where you like, I think I had it does not just go away. No canan I There's nothing that's been this's the most honest thing I could ever tell you in my whole life It does not just go. When I started this process, I had a head of hair like you. And now look at this thing right now. Yeah, You just lose time. you lose hair. You look great, man. And Bro, you've done a great job today too, dude. Yeah. thank you. It's been a great pleasure being here. Thank you, Bro. Thank you so much. J just for being here for talking about this, man. some stuff it's like I don't know I just has been so much more comfortable than I thought it would be. And I don't even know why I didn't think it would be. you know. All right, let's see let's have one more call that came in please. deal is Kody from Florida And I think you're really big on porn addictions and kind of a weird topic to get personal about you know what I mean very awkward topic, but I feel like I feel like I just lost the love of my wife because of it. I can't control myself. I can't I feel like This is' my generation because I'm I'm nineteen, man. I'm I just I feel like it's so normalized. It's so routine. ' so normal for me to feel normalized about doing this sh as it were The best thing that's ever happened is she broke up with me, man. This a fucking. this is a gooner National anthem right. me I can't believe it, bro thinking about it. Iop dreaming about it. I can't I can't get past the memories that we had because of my actions my actions My since made me lose it th And I just I just wanted to if I could get some advice from you Yeah, Dude, thanks for coming in about it, bro. And yes, herar is kind of joking around, Dude, but it's real And it's And if you really have this porn addiction, if you' related to it enough you were you kind of call, you heard it and thought about it and called, then it must have some relative, there must be something inside of you that's connecting with it, right? If you've even just heard me talk about it before because today's the most we ever even talked about it ever So if you're picking up on something from from before, Oh It it won't get better. You have to have you got to help it get better, right? So you got to show up for it and help it get better and it will get better. And as far as yeah, you might have lost your girlf this situation for now Iible I believe you get second chances And I believe that you won't miss out on the next good one. And you will be so grateful down the line that you started to solve the solve some of the issues now then waited That's what I think, man. from my own experience Steve, what do you what do you think? I think, um Everywhere I go there I am Meing that you know, that's just the reality. If I could date that woman without me, itd probably be a great experience. But I bring me to that relationship. So I think pain is the cornerstone of spiritual growth And what happened happened sounds like awful, tragic, horrible. but I'll tell you what, what would be really tragic if you didn't use this moment in time to get the help you need Lverage the pain you're in right now to get the help you need Really important, right? the gift of desperation. Don't let this go by and pass. I' like, oh, maybe it wasn't that bad Use the pain you're in as leverage G help. Amen. That's the truth bro. That's Dude, that's cool, dude. Yeahah Yeah, bother, the gift of desperation We've both lived it But yeah, thanks Cie for calling in. Did we get those three guys guys by chance We have Akaris Ham. Here we go right here. These are the ethical capital partners. This couple of guys right here, there's the managing partner, Fody Monsur U Rocco Meliambro And he's definitely been gooning And Solomon Friedman had a feeling he was involved. There he is right now, he's the partner of VP compliance. I love how compliance is part of it. know What do you do working at a porn company for compliance? Yeah Yeah I'm curious I don't know, dude. I do not know. So they' that's them right. there ethical capital partners So we want to thank those guys for um being basically they are uh Thoses your porn sackler family right there. That's what all that's what I call them. That's just my thoughts. Those are the sacklers of pornography right there. There's good people Fadi Manur Racco Meliambro and Solomon Friedman U thank you guys for your service. Hh Steve Woltman, thank you for your serice, dude, today is a service call That's what they say in recovery rooms. if's like you You know, you make a service call on people, you do something to be helpful. to the group or to someone. So what a treat to be here. Thankk you. Dude, what a long journey, huh? Yeah. It's only just started., That's the craziest part for. and that's the best attitude to have. Congratulations, man, on starting a family. on making something real out of something that was just Like, do you look back sometimes and you're like, I cannot even believe it I really do And I just talked to my wife last night in anticipation of this. and I was like,, I can't believe I'm here Really unfathomable. How I get here? one day at a time, one step at a time, taking better making better decisions. Yeah Anybody can do it, huh? one hundred percent. You believe that? I really do. Yeah. Do doesnn't matter if you have money or don't money, if you're in a wheelchair, if you can't see far, it doesn't matter. No. Anybody can do it as long as you don't quit before the miracle happens. Amen Stvelbragh, I love you, bro. Thankk you for being a part of my life, Bro, thank you for let me a part of your life. You showed up for my comedy show. When I came out to Bend Oregon, we had so much fun. That was awesome. That was cool, dude. It was awesome. And and you've just been such a light over the years, dude, we know so many friends. Most of like the most important people in my life U You know him. That's right Best friends in the world that have friends in recovery. Oh, dude, nothing No, notothing better. No. amazing human beings, crazy as can be. They could be decades sober, off their rockers. inccredible and beautiful. Yeah. Oh, good the good times do not end, bro. No they don't. You finally you always want to know who's got the best story in the room, dude. You finally get to meet all of those people. That's right That's right. Aesome. Steve Valor Recovery, you guys can check out his program. If anything you feel like you can relate to. Steve I love you, bro. Thankk you, bro. Thank you. Sim I found I can feel it