Food Waste and Mill

It's time for Twit this week and Tech Marshall. Kirkpatrick is here. Larry Maggot, my friend Jacob Ward. We've got a great panel and lots to talk about, including the biggest change to Google search in 25 years. Jacob was at the Musk vs. Altman trial. He'll talk about what it was like to be sitting there and watching the whole thing. And there's good news and bad news. That creepy listening tool for targeted ads didn't actually work. And the FTC says we're gonna find you. It should have worked. What ? All of that and more coming up next on Twit. This episode is brought to you by Out Systems, a leading agency systems platform built for the enterprise. Organizations all over the world are building, orchestrating, and governing agentic systems on the OutSystems platform, and with good reason. Architect, deliver, and scale governed agentics system s with agility and trust using one open and unified platform, power secure company-wide agentic orchestration for core business operations. Teams of any size and technical depth can use out systems to build, deploy, and manage AI apps and agents quickly and cost effectively without compromising reliability and security. With out systems, you can rapidly launch ideas from concept to completion. It's the leading agentic systems platform that's unified, agile, and enterprise proven, allowing you to accelerate growth, reduce operational friction, and deliver real enterprise impact with AI. OutSystems. Build your agenic future. Learn more at Outsystems.com slash twit. That's outsystems.com slash twit . Podcasts you love. From people you trust . This is twit this week in tech, episode 1085 , recorded Sunday, May 24th, 2026. Waiting in line with Sam . It's time for Twit this week at Tech, the show where we cover the week's tech news . And at first I thought the tech news was kind of weak this week, but then I took a stronger look, and fortunately we have a panel that is up to the task. Larry Maggot is here, connectsafely.org founder and president, but also a ra like me, a refugee from radio. We're gonna talk about the demise of CBS News in a little bit . Uh good to see you, Larry. Welcome back. Good to see you, Leo, as always. And we also talk about your blog post about uh how AI helped you understand why you weren't feeling so good the other day. But that's to come. Also with us, Marshall Kirkpatrick. It's always great to see Marshall, longtime a tech journalist. His latest, though, is uh What's up with that ? Hey Marshall, good to see you. Thanks, Leo. Welcome. Marshall was on uh intelligent machines, but he you you were on twit many times back in the day. You're you you kind of what I would say is an old timer. A twit old timer. Hmm. Also with us Jacob Ward. Jacob is the author of a great book called The Loop , which presaged what's going on today with AI . He was uh absolute, you know , ahead of his time on that one. He's back. You're back, I see on CNN now, which is great. Yeah, I have a contributor role at CNN. Very exciting. Appreciate Leo. You also see him uh, of course, every month on uh Tech News Weekly, and his uh newsletter is the RipCurrent at the ripcurrent dot com So I don't know where to begin here. Let's uh as long as we started talking about radio off the air, and I said, wait a minute, hold on. Let's uh let's hold that for the show because you Larry, you asked me a kind of a leading question. Is radio dead? Right. You gave me bad news. Well, it's funny because uh for years I've been saying who listens to the radio ? And often our audience says we do. Yeah. I said do young people still listen to the radio? But I think maybe in the car people still listen to radio. I don't know why. Yeah, no, I mean uh uh uh tw CBS News Radio as of last week, before it died on Friday, had twenty-two million listeners on seven hundred affiliates across the country. So some below their peak. They peaked at thirty-three million during my career, but they claimed that they had still had twenty two p million listeners a week, which is more than CBS evening news gets. In fact, more than all the evening news gets combined. Wow. At least they claim. Well who who do you think that is? I mean, you know, it's funny, Jacob, when I get in the car, I uh fire up tune in and listen to CNN. That's my news radio. I listen to CNN too. Yeah. I was once I was talking to an entrepreneur recently living in uh Lagos, Nigeria, who said that what's a m he he had just taken a big executive job at a big radio station there and was talking about how hot radio is still in West Africa, that for for a a lot lot of people it is still the dominant media, dominant music. It was like it was like talking to somebody from a from another, you know, from a time capsule, from a a time traveler. And he was just saying how cool it is to combine the social media stuff with what's going on in radio. Anyway, it was very cool to imagine, but we are not living in that kind of world here, no question. Aaron Powell Well, as uh William Gibson once said, the future is here. It's just not evenly distributed. There's some of us living in uh different decades If you are in a country, a developed country like this, where there's uh internet floating through the air and available to everyone everywhere all the time thanks to our cell phones and cell service. I I don't understand why you would listen. Why you would even by the way, people still subscribe to Sirius. I don't understand why. You can get all that . Maybe I guess if you're not always in cell service. So as I mentioned to you off air, I uh I got an invitation to go to this event in New York on Friday. You went to the funeral for CBS News. Yeah, if a good friend died, I would go to their funeral. It's like that, isn't it? And and this was uh the death of a radio network, a hundred ninety nine years old. Uh Edward R. Murrow was one of the very first people. Tiffany Network. Tiffany Network, it was historic , and uh it was still the largest radio news network in the in the in the country as of until this week. Uh and so I showed up and first of all was a it was a wonderful event. I got to meet all of these great people who I know by name and voice, but because I work remotely, I rarely got the chance to see them in person. And you know, it's over. We we pulled, they pulled the plug on us at 113 1 Friday night. We did our last uh broadcast and now all the stations are moving over to ABC News 'cause they still have a new service. That's kinda sad. Yeah. Well it is what it is. I mean is there such a thing as C B is I mean is CBS was now owned by Paramount is CBS is owned by Paramount, which is Larry Ellison's son David, I think his name is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean Sky David. I would buy that. Yeah, that's that's actually pretty cool. Yeah. Um did they all did they own CBS News radio? Did they get the thing Yeah, so what happened was CBS div didested their stations about six or seven years ago. That became until the case. They used to own KC KCBS, for example, in the Bay Area, and WCBS in New York. I grew up listening to WCBS. That's where I heard that RFK had been assassinated. And I heard you all the time, yeah. Um I was a child, of course, at the time. Absolutely. No, I I was I was on the air Uh um 'cause I still do a seg I still do a feature, even though I'm no longer in a I mean I look radio's in my heart. In in December I will have will be the fiftieth anniversary of my getting my FCC third ticket so I could work in rad you know hourly news where we had a three minute . Well, there was one, but OpenAI bought it. Yeah, right. Right? The Tech Pros Podcast Network for hundreds of millions of dollars. Yeah, that one was crazy. Uh and then uh Mark Andreessen's uh Venture Capital uh arm has a they did something called monitoring the situation which is a direct clone of TPBN or TBPN uh But those are both on YouTube. They're there's several hours a day streaming, and they have really more like a CNBC look and feel to them when there's a lot of people. But they either mean they are not independent, right? They're not playing the role uh of of a a journalistic outlet you know holding power accountable. It is a it is an adversarial landscape and I presume right there's like some who killed Robert or Who Framed Roger Rabbit kind of stuff going on here where uh you know this isn't just the the unstoppable march of time forward. This is around corporate consolidation and regulatory capture and media capture and and a a part of a larger shift towards authoritarianism. News die on Friday, but so did the Stephen Colbert show. The next day it was actually very funny. Stephen Colbert shows up on public access. That was awesome. So funny. Uh well, but it's kind of not funny . Uh it was called Only in Monroe. I guess he'd done the show once before. And it was by the way, watch it because it's hysterical. And uh Jack White is on. I mean, it's it's really good funny stuff, but it is a local access in uh I've never heard of that city, let alone that th that tiny tiny brilliant uh subject of programming. Paramount plus took it down . They don't own it. They don't own him, but they issued a strike to YouTube and they have it has been taken down globally. What right do they have to do that? I have no idea. This is the problem with YouTube takedowns. Also, the world's dumbest thing, you g w g give it as much you know, oxygen as possible, right? That's the thing like that. You just put it right into the news cycle by doing that. I feel like you just need these like there needs to be like C suite training and like here is how humor works. How stupid can you be? I I I owe Brendan Carr a debt of gratitude because I didn't really pay much attention to Jimmy Kimmel until he got banned. Now I So uh Paramount Larry Allison's son uh I think uh feeling the pressure from Brendan Carr's FCC decided to pull Colbert. Uh ABC showed a little bit of spine not pulling Jimmy Kimmel, but I think some of that was the public reaction to that. Oh yeah. Um what is that why CBS radio news went away or is that more an economic ? Said was that we were slightly profitable, that they were in the black. And boy, being in the black and media, I don't care how close you are to the red, as long as you're in the black, that should be a good sign. Now CBS will say it was for financial reasons. But you know, you think it's political? I think it's political. I think look for all of the criticisms of mainstream media, and I I understand them and I have my own critiques, we worked really hard to tell the truth. I mean, lying knowingly lying on CBS News Radio was a firable offense. And I can't say the same for some some of the other shows out there, networks out there. And uh you know, I don't think we had a left wing bias. I think we really did have a straightforward news gathering bias, which may be very uncomfortable to certain people in power. Telling the truth can be dangerous if you're basing your administration on lies. And that's and we were just telling the truth. That's all we were doing. Uh yeah . Um I was a commentator. I got to editorial life a bit, but still the network. It's pretty hard in a world where uh podcasting exists, where the Internet exists, uh and and Brandon Carr and the FCC's reach does not extend to that. I mean they may try to make it. And the real question, and you know, and Jacob, as you know, CNN could very well be likely is going to be owned by these same people that own CBS. Um the question is how relevant is it? Does it really matter, given the internet that Ellison owns CBS and may soon own uh Yeah, here's my argument about that. So I I so yeah, I should say right, I I'm a contributor at CNN. I'm not a full-time employee, but I have a relationship with CNN. So I'm not speaking for CNN here in any way. But I um, you know, the this question of right, does it matter who owns these platforms in an age of of declining relevance for mainstream media, blah, blah, blah. I hear that. On the other hand, so I'm part of a sort of informal network of creators, and we there's a Slack channel that goes around. And one of the people the other day was um said, and these are people who were like , you know, they they might have some kind of like, you know posts on like they t they tend to do stuff about knitting or cooking or whatever it is. And they they started um in some cases talking about current events and before they knew it they were like some of the top voices in the nation on current events and so one of them said hey I've just been leaked some documents from this like government agency and I don't know what to do with them because I have no training, right? And and they were like, you know, what what kind of quick journalism training can I get to figure out what to do? Um and so I put uh together a little like informal kind of like crash course in journalism, like a journalism one on one for these folks, because their numbers are so huge and their relationship with their audience is so close that these people, you know, inside sensitive government facilities are leaking them stuff because they think this is the person to go to, as opposed to the BBC or CNN or whoever else. So crazy. Also, when I then did the 101 thing. I basically said to people, like, listen, you guys are operating right now in a world in which the there's a primary layer of journalism that you have come to expect will always be there. The Anderson Cooper hard-hitting interviews, the, you know, the rocket fire into Bahrain and the footage you get of from the news of that. And then you guys consider yourselves to be in this sort of like commentary class of you know as a as a you know as a as an you know you're offering your perspective on the news, which is what so many of these people were doing. And I was like, well, what happens when the primary goes away? Because you you're gonna, you know, these folks also basically like they all need that that primary layer in order for their secondary commentary layer to work. So the so everybody wants it there. Even th and and and the what we know is that like young people actually consume an enormous amount of news. They just do it through the clips that they watch TikTok layer doing. Yeah, which which clips the news. That's right. That's right. That's their news. And so the the current system is really even though the money's not flowing to the primary layer of journalism, uh th it's still very relevant and people still really want it. It's just being consumed in this whole other way. And and what I was saying to these people were like, are you ready to be the primary layer if the primary layer falls apart as a business model? Yeah. Because somebody has to. I mean, how can you afford it? This is this is completely analogous to what's happening with AI, which is AI has eaten all the primary sources, but and it's in some respects putting the primary sources out of business. But they desperately need those primary sources. And C NN has bureaus all over the world. That's a really expensive operation. No no you know YouTube star is likely to have twenty bureaus around the world. And reporters gathering facts. Meta announced a new policy that they're gonna spike creators who post unoriginal content. What? Yeah, that they and they and they talk about in the context of like, oh, we're protecting the creator. Adam Assari had this piece uh you know, this this post about it. We're protecting cre ators and their original works. And so if your if your what you post is not substantially transformed or not yours specifically, then the then they're gonna like that's interesting. Not only will it will it downgrade that content, it'll downgrade you as a creator. So like the people in my cohort are like panicked because news footage is one of the main things that goes around for them. And I was thinking to myself, boy, I don't know if that's Meta's intention. Oh they're morons. But the effect could really be bad for news. For For understanding the news. Like it could really screw up people's sense of what's going on in the world. No, and if you think about it, it's counterproductive. What made TikTok a success? They bought musically, and the success of TikTok was people lip syncing to other people's music. And eventually TikTok really became about collab s and uh and respons es and taking existing content and repackaging it. And I think Meta's just they're on the wrong side of history. But this is nothing new for Meta. So Barbara Stre isand was already rich, right, when the when the Streisand effect came into being. She could she could get in there and and uh she could withstand the the pressure, she could freak out, she was I'm sure she was on the phone with her lawyers, et cetera, et cetera. But but this uh I I would contend that that when the powers that be put pressure on people, um, if those people are already deep pocketed and have big legal teams, then it becomes a stris antifact situation. But if they're more on the margins, then it becomes a slap situation, a strategic lawsuit against public participation. Right. Because they don't have the capacity to withstand that that barrage. And uh well that's why we defend section two thirty. Because if you are Meta , if you are Google, if you are a big company, you can defend yourself in court . But people like us and our little chat rooms and our little mastodon instances and our forums, we can't. And that's why Section 230 is necessary. Well I have a question though. So I've always I was always a big defender of two thirty, but I'm questioning whether it's relevant in the age of algorithms. If meta is amplifying posts, doesn't that make them a publisher? They're not just running a forum. It's not like the old days of CompuServe forums where That's right. That's what the jury decided, isn't it isn't it? Design. Yeah, they just said that the design was they were culpable for the d the effect that the design has on your behavior, which is I I think is good. It keeps Yeah, I you know, by the way, my chat rooms don't have an algorithm. My mastodon just is chronolog ical, baby. Uh my forums. Chronological. There is no editorial. So if that's the case, mm yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe section through two thirty does not and should not defend the algorithmic publishing. That is, I guess, you know, in a way, publishing, and that's what that jury found in San Jose. But Exactly in two thirty in general. Now that maybe because I have thousands of you know, I've got followers and friends. Before they allowed followers, I used to accept all my all everybody's friends because that was the only way I could have people follow me. Right. So maybe that's the problem, but the No no, it's not. It's the same problem with Mastodon. That's why nobody likes Mastodon, because it's not algorithmic. So I I track my news through a system that I built myself that has an algorithm tuned specific for yeah for my specific interests. Yeah uh I've got a few areas of interest and I click a button and it just says whoosh here's the here's the ten most relevant articles uh from across everything you're monitoring about that each day and it's uh maybe that's the future is hyper personal super interesting. I love that. Uh Marshall, can I ask you a question? So like let's say you let's say we scale that up, right? And each of us gets to construct our thing. So I have something sort of sort of like that uh as well. And I was just thinking, like, okay, no one's making money off of your system or mine, not least because you no one's centralizing your behavioral profile and bucketing it with all of the other behavioral profiles and blah blah blah, right? But is there like a money-making opportunity at scale for each person personalizing a uh newsfeed in a way. Suggest that that's what we do here at Twit is we pick the stories that we think are important and we talk about them and that editorial judgment is what we monetize. That's . sure Wow, what a concept. You think the New York Times might certainly say at that level as a That's called journalist as a broadcaster, it works, right? But as an individual like as a bunch of individuals with a one-to-one relationship with the algorithm. I'll show you something I subscribe to. It's called No Scroll. I found it on uh on um Twitter. It is an AI. It says no scroll monitors the situation so you don't have to. Every morning at 9 a.m., no scroll sends me a list of stories. I told it ahead of time what I'm interested in, and it sends me a list of stories on Telegram. It's a Telegram bot . Uh that I might want to cover. It's 10 bucks a month. And it's one of the many tools I use to keep track of stories we want to cover on the show. I presume, I mean, it's 10 bucks a month. They're monetizing it. I don't know how big it's become. I'm trying to get the founders on uh to talk about it. So there are ways to do this. And Matt, Marshall, you're kind of monetizing it with what's up with that, right? Yeah, what's up with that? And then so that's that's my x-ray tool, but then I've also got uh a companion radar type tool called Hawkeye. And they 're together. Yeah it is. Oh okay. Um where's that? Uh it's at at uh what's up with that dot app slash hawkeye . Okay. And uh and so I I'm setting that up for organizations. I sell that. And uh and what it does is we we map out, you know, you give us some examples of the kinds of organizations you're interested in. I go out and map out hundreds of related kinds of organizations, monitor them each day. Yeah. And then uh click on one of those magazine covers uh there in the bottom right. Uh one of the things that it does is uh publish and then if you click through on the right uh side there's a uh yeah an arrow there, it uh gener ates these magazine uh this is analogous to something that's been around in journalism for decades, which is a clipping service, right? Right. If you're Barbara Streisand, you pay for a clipping service that will send you every day all the places you were mentioned. Well, and then Google did that for uh it still does that, right? Google on top of it. Because it takes a whole bunch of related stories. AI makes it better. Find me uh do some cluster analysis and see what some common themes are and generate some original analysis uh covering those themes. I will say one of the things that that I I think none of this solves for and it's a comment brought up on your Discord right now, I don't know how you say your name, l This is good. This is a good classic twit. I can't read it out loud, but I but it looks good. L R A U. But he says what I find with algorithms tune to me, you don't find anything outside of my bubble. That's my number one problem. You know, it makes a lot of sense this thing of like we're gonna serve up like intelligence, you know, tailored to your specific job function. Great. What I want is the old experience of like wandering through the you know a paper edition of the New York Times, bumping into some crazy article about something weird going on in Indonesia that I would never read about otherwise and that no algorithm would ever predict I'd be into and being like, wow, that's really interesting. His wife organized the murder of this guy. And that's crazy. You know, like the the the the random discovery stuff. And as a newsletter writer, that's kind of important, right? Because you want to find something that not everybody So I am in exactly the same boat. Uh 90% of the stories we do are the same stories. And I I I use the AI to do that. This is the daily tech briefing that uh my AI generates for me if for all three shows that I do. And so m I I let it do that, but you're exactly uh right, Jacob. I don't get from that the weird, the odd ball . So So my favorite experience f I if I may uh with that, I'm a subscriber to a book publisher uh called PM Press where for thirty bucks a month uh they just send me every book they publish that month and uh and I get all kinds of like wild stuff that I wouldn't have chosen that's brilliant to buy until it shows up in my mailbox in a package about, you know, Appalachian coal miner labor disputes. And uh yeah, it's really neat. So you know, I I I think about that 'cause in the in in in the days of newspapers, let's say you're a sports fanatic, that's really all you care about. You still have to look past the front page on the way to the sports section. So you're gonna get some information. But now you could just go to ESPN or whatever your sports source and completely ignore what's happening in the rest of the world. Aaron Powell Well worse than that, you can say I only want to know about football. Don't tell me about baseball. Right. I mean it you can really narrow it down. So I think there is a obligation on the part of uh consumer information consumers to try to kind of reach outside their filter bubble. Um, you know, Eli Pariser wrote that very famous book of the filter bubble, and Jeff Jarvis has always argued against it. He said, you know, you can say, well, you're only seeing stuff you're interested in, but it is the nature of the internet that stuff comes in over the transom that you would not see otherwise. You know, uh and I think that that's I think that's also true. I don't know how does TikTok work? Uh TikTok is exactly that. Exactly. It's it's just pure isn't just perpetually refined, exactly the kind of stuff you like. Yeah, the the funny thing about Twit uh about uh TikTok is that it used to be much more like random, awesome stuff. You'd get like a Jamaican truck driver teaching you how he makes breakfast in his cab and you know that kind of stuff where you're like, wow, I would never bump into this and on any other platform. Now it's become a little more specific and what and and you have to basically reset your feed every so often because it starts to peg you. And my thing is, you know, so to figure out who you are. Peg you is the wrong word. Uh yes, please. Don't say that. Thank you, but that sounds painful. Sorry about that. But the um that that you know narrowing of what it gives you, it gets boring really quick. And for me, what I'm always trying to do is convince it that it that I'm somebody demographically that I'm not. So I'm always trying to convince it that I'm like a twenty five year old black woman. Or whatever. Like I'm trying to like he heart stuff about that, you know, or whatever. And then I'll linger too long on something and it'll be like, oh you're a white guy in your fifties. And it's just like camping archery and you know cars and Jack Reacher and I'm gonna be able pickleball pickleball that's what you want. You want pickleball so much pickleball exactly. I'm like my daughter who's a millennial taught me that. She said, Dad, you have to really she said, What you really need is multiple accounts because it pays I don't know if TikToks is sophisticated anymore now that it's owned by Larry Ellison, but it pays attention to what you look at at morning, noon, and night. It has it is very fine-tuned. I mean, this was really their secret sauce, right? If she says, but you can completely c cultivate by what you linger on, what you watch, and what you don't linger on, and she's you know so I'm scrolling through. I said, see, I get all these bikini pictures. She says, Don't stop there because Leo, I'm glad you admitted that because I get that even on Facebook Reels, and I'm almost reluctant to admit it because it's kind of acknowledging that maybe once in a while I actually look at this stuff. My wife is watching uh it's not just men that that love boobs, for goodness sake. I don't want to stop. I really don't. So I have noticed that I, you know, I took t Instagram and TikTok off my phone, and they've been off for six months. And I went back to Instagram because unfortunately, my son is an Instagram influencer and I kinda if I'm gonna find out what Henry's up to I have to every once in a while check Instagram but I do notice that Instagram I think got sensitive to that I don't get the thirst traps I used to get. I mean, used to be all I would see on Instagram was was young women basically trying to get you to join their OnlyFans. And that's stopped. So I think they are playing with the algorithm a little bit. You know, Leo, you remind me of this preacher. Years ago when I when I took ads on safe kids dot com . Um somehow I got this letter from a preacher says, you know, I found a sexually provocative ad on your website and you should not be you, know, uh a side on kid safety should not be. I said, I'm sorry to tell you, Reverend, but the it's based not on what's on my website. It's based on what you're looking at, sir . So You know, my website just serves up what you want , Reverend. Well so there there is a continuum, right, of of interests between like uh a a liberal democratic uh prioritization on diversity and and growth and and instead you know people say if you're trying to reach across the aisle like make appeals to to purity and uh and tradition and and uh and the the instruments of power, uh buying up these social networks and tuning the algorithms uh are more aligned to the latter. Uh and uh it's a self-reinforcing cultural and cycle has said in the U.S. problem is that purity used to be a republican value. I'm not sure it is anymore. I mean I know it's that's talking about it. Appeals to purity are. Oh oh you could oh I see. Talking about purity, yeah. Yeah. Uh Jonathan Haidt before he became the the guy who says kids are being ruined kids today being ruined by in social media wa wrote a really good book. I interviewed him uh on it about why we can't talk to one another. And he really talks about the left and the right and the values that each side holds highest. But as you said, purity is is is one of them on the more conservative side. And uh at f you know, fairness, it's really interesting um and you're right that would that would end up getting self-perpetuated but i so i mean i think we've talked about solutions here i think this is a potential flaw with AI I think. one of the things that's happening with AI, we're we're all four of us examples of this, is people are writing their own custom uh filters and custom services and custom search tools. Some people are , but it's a it's not everybody, obviously, but the but those of us in the in the cutting edge of tech are very everybody it's so funny because I uh I I was telling uh Larry this. I have people on the show. I used to have to say, well, do you use AI now? It's not it's it's a given. There because if you're covering technology, this is one of the most consequential things that's ever happened in technology, and you will be left out unless you actually And a larger group of people who will be told what to That's changing though. I think AI might be changing that. But a handful of companies that dominate AR AI already I mean industry industry start out with a lot of companies and they consolidate. We're already consolidated to it. Because I do want to talk about Google I.O. which was this week and their announcements. But there was a big announcement that's kind of a secondary story from a Chinese company that I think is also very interesting. So we're gonna we're gonna talk about that in just a little bit. Good conversation though. Great way to start. I really uh appreciate your bringing up CBS News Radio and I'm sorry, uh May it rest in peace. Yeah, uh may uh may it rest in peace. I didn't Friday was the last day. It was Friday, eleven thirty one PM boy. But there was a new network that launched at midnight, uh Saturday midnight, called the Worldwide News Network. It's owned by the same right-wing billionaire who owns uh WABC in New York. But its news director, who is pitching me, claims that they're, you know, totally neutral politically and they're don't worry, if w you come on our network, we're not gonna surround you by right wing ideology. So that's really the c the concern I have is the consolidation. And you you nailed it when you said, Jacob , that that TBPN and uh uh uh modering the situation, MTS are are not real news organizations because they're owned by the people they cover . That really is what's happened is the rich have gotten so we are in a second guild of age, and they are so powerful, and they are so wealthy, and they are buying up all of these means of communication and furthermore fully understand how to use them to protect their own interests in a very in a level. uh now producer of Democracy Now, uh syndicated nationwide. Uh she's got a biopic in movie theaters called Steal This Story Please. Yes. Good. B AI is great. She's great. And is Murdoch buying Vox? Is that actually gonna happen? Because Vox is pretty much it. It happened. James Murdoch, but it's the son who was who was cast out for his liberalism from the Murdoch family. So but the point I I don't care about right or left. That's the point, is that these people have so much money that whatever side they want to advocate for, they can buy up the means of communication. And it's a good And why would they ever subject themselves to an interview a hostile interview from any of the four of us ? That's right. Ever again. And uh that worries me. We need people who will see. I used to love interviewing Bezos back in the day, but uh he probably wouldn't talk to me again. No. Sorkin is as as hard a hitting uh interview as he'll do anymore. That's right. Yeah. Uh we'll have more in just a bit. Jacob Ward is here. So glad uh uh about the CNN thing. That's fantastic. I love seeing you and I thanks, man. I get it, I get all excited. Jacob 's on . ab Ward.com. The RipCurrent is his uh newsletter, and of course he appears every month uh on Tech News Weekly with Micah Sargent. Marshall Kirkpatrick, the creator of Well, now I have to say what's up with that, and Hawkeye . Two very interesting uses of AI to help people uh figure out what's up with that, which is uh you become a publisher. That's great. That's awesome. So always good to see you, Marshall. And uh Larry Magg ot of ConnectSafely.org and formerly of CBS News Radio. Uh yeah. Oh that that Mike flag makes me sad. I'm gonna put it back on my mic. I grew I I that was really my news w as a kid. I had a clock radio, would come on, you know, when I had to get up six AM or whatever. K C B S, K N X, W A. It was W C B S. I was at New Providence. Oh, you're in New York, yeah. Yeah. And uh that was my that was my news and I'm great radio officials. That is completely off the air. I mean WCBS they killed that about a year ago. Completely. So radio may not be dead, but it 's limping. It's limping hard. Our show today brought to you by speaking of AI, Super human . We I love superhuman. We use superhuman. Stop letting single function tools disrupt your workflow. This is so real when you're sitting there writing or you're you're working constant context and tab switching are death. They make project management tedious, disjointed. Your brain is not designed to be switching back and forth like that. But superhuman has an answer. Grammarly. And grammarly is now part of something bigger, superhuman. It can help level up your productivity without all the context switching. AI tools are everywhere. Uh as we probably all learned, they make some of them make more work and take up even more of your time. Uh most of them don't really give you what you need. Well, now they're superhuman. The AI productivity suite that gives you superpowers wherever you work. Think of super human as your AI dream team, proactively helping you with every aspect of your workflow. 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Your writing agent understands what you're going for, what you need, creates helpful outputs that match your writing style. We love it. Our whole team uses it. Unleash your superhuman potential with AI that meets you where you work. Learn more at superhuman dot com. That's superhuman dot com . Superhuman dot com. We thank him so much for supporting. This week in tech . So Google had its uh big developer conference uh on a Tuesday and announced, boy, like a thousand things . Uh to me, the most consequential thing, the thing that I think people are gonna in the long run say makes the most difference is they really changed search . After twenty-five years of the simple Google search box that gave you a list of links, this has been slowly happening, right, with the AI assistance. And they are now using their latest Gemini model, the 3.5 flas h, and they are really changing how the search box works. Essentially, keeping you on Google, they're answering longer queries with graphics, pictures , full answers instead of links. They have a video generation tool they're also focusing on bringing online shopping into the search window so that you don't go to amazon or dick's sporting goods, you have it all in one window and you do your whole shopping there . This is a uh I think is a massive shift. Google obviously doing this in response to companies like Perplexity kind of dis and chat GPT dis intermediating search. People more and more do search with AI and don't go to those sites. But this is what I was talking about in the last segment, where you know, potentially you're going to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs. There's all the monetization flows directly to Google, not to the sites that content comes from. Marshall, you I mean, you're i i do you think this is a problem or is this a good thing? Oh I think time will tell. Uh people uh how well people appreciate it. Uh maybe they'll just leave Google. There's backlash already where people say, you know, I don't I don't want AI in my search results and in my graduation uh ceremony speech and oh yeah man. Uh so uh but uh uh uh does Google do a better job than you know SEO hungry websites uh trying to pull you into uh yeah who who can you trust? Uh who who is most credible, I think will be the big question. Yeah, and people may reject uh reject it on the surface, but if it's better, if they use it and they find it's got better results, you know, they'll quickly get over their their concern What what do you think, Jacob? This is part of the loop, isn't it? Yeah, it's an it's my nightmare, right? Like I mean points this thing and there's a healthy debate going on. Excuse me, in the Discord conversation about you know, does what people want line up with what is good business? And you know, do what we want philosophically line up with what our brains want instinctually and and those things are so far apart. And I think the whole of human like modern human history has to do with conquering our instincts and making a sustainable structure out of what who we want to be. And the tech industry is just not about that. You know, what they're about is they don't care, do they? Let's ship. Let's ship, let's get it sticky, let's go, right? And in this case, this is such it's so short-sighted for so many reasons. I mean, it's short-sighted just from a business perspective because it's not clear to me you know like google is doing to publishers exactly what ai companies are accused of of of doing to google right they're like they're just turning on their on their source in this terrible way. So there's this fundamental thing of just like destroying the market for uh information. I mean like HubSpot, I think estimated that 70 or 80% of their their traffic disappears uh on this. Um DMG media documented drops as steep as 89% for some queries. Like we're entering the world of zero-click searches. Yeah, that's a nightmare for anybody that tries to make money on that stuff. And then the last thing I'll just say is there was a paper at Neurups this year, right? The big academic conference on, or I guess last year. I'm not time as a flat circle. And uh NeurIP's, right, the big academic conference on on AI had a bunch of there were a bunch of papers that won an award, and one of them was called Artificial Hive Mind. And I really recommend people take a look at this. It is so fascinating. What they did is they took 70 top LLMs and they put this corpus of like 27,000 open-ended creative questions through all 70. So that's you know, Lama and Gemini and Chow GPT and everything. They then out of that measured over time where those direct where those answers kind of went. So these are like open-ended questions, like write me a poem about time. And what they found is that if you ask the question repeatedly, over time the answers narrow into a uh a a slimmer and slimmer band of responses so rather than it getting more expansive it gets less expansive you're getting less information over time it's homogenized exactly. And here's the really crazy part is that when they looked at across the seventy different models, they all start converging on the same answers. So uh, you know, it's like uh time is a river is what they all end up writing in the end. These cliched kind of college freshmen kind of responses, right? And so for me, the nightmare here is like Google, for all of its flaws, was once upon a time a place where you could really go and find very individual stuff. You could really experience a raw feed or a semi-raw feed of weird specific research, you know, derived knowledge. And and now, man, it's just gonna be margarine, you know? And and I I really uh there's all the business problems and there's a huge number of business problems, but man, the the the homogenizing, the greatest hits medley that we're about to be listening to all the time is really disturbing to me. And furthermore, controlled by the giants, the tech niques. They would almost always link me to a YouTube video. And sometimes I just want to read it, right? But they don't get monetized if they send me to some random news source. They're always self-dealing, right? This is what e the EU complained about I mean and Google deny, but Google shopping, Google you the YouTube results. Google said well we just want to give you the best results. We're just trying to give people what they want and that's what they want. Well, but you know if they're if they're letting you shop on Google and not sending you to merchants. Well what happens is in some ways it gives Walmart and Wayfair and all these companies a way to compete against Amazon. But they have to play the game. They have to play the game on Google's terms. They have to support the universal cart, the U C P proto col, and they have to say, okay, you know, we're gonna show up in the Google results because that's where people are shopping . And then suddenly Google has all this power. This is what happened with Google Ads . You call this in your book the loop. You called it Yeah. This is this is the this is the loop, isn't it? That is in fact a narrowing spiral of uh it's contracting. And it and at the bottom of that spiral, we don't know how to tell jokes or talk to our spouses or use a credit card or any of that stuff, you know. And and to me, you know, cut to five years according to what what they're building here and and you know at Google and like I think you know you're gonna have people be like, oh I don't wanna have to go like look for the thing I wanna buy. Right. I need you know, I need you know, detergent or I need, you know, a shirt. And that's yeah, that's the end. It's just like it just becomes mush in this way that I'm I think the market is gonna be there. I mean, I was gonna say your new shirt, it's gonna find a shirt for you, whether whether you would have chosen it or not. Well yeah, and you're never gonna wanna go and spend time being like, I wonder where this shirt was sourced from and you know, un unless you could sort of tell it what to do. Like you're just not gonna I not that shopping is my number one care about this stuff, but like you know, just any any active reaching out for knowledge or active reaching out for engagement with the world, they wanna jump in there and make it so easy you'll forget how to do it. But you know, people say, Well, I'll use DuckDuckGo or I pay twenty-five bucks a month for coggy search, but I gotta point out that the index almost all of these other tools use is Bing and Google. Right. And so if this becomes the way of the world, there's not gonna d there won't be any differentiation anymore because they don't have their own search indexes. But what's what what's really scary about this, if you think about education, I mean the purpose of education is should be not to fill your head with knowledge, but to teach you how to think critically and to teach you how to acquire knowledge. That has always been, you know, the main important outcome of a good education. And it almost sounds like they really are dumbing us down. Like this education is going to become irrelevant if once we get out of school all we get is Pablum served to us without having to think about it. TechCrunch published when Pura releases a new scent that's based in Sandalwood for under 15 dollars. Grab it for me. That's it. That's the last interaction you're gonna have with that company. Uh you'll just one day that scent will arrive at your door and that's it. It's done. And and that's what Google wants, because Google's gonna get a cut of that transaction. Uh you're not gonna leave Google. You're gonna you're gonna stay in the Google world. It really looked to me at watching Google I.O. that Google was taking a page from Apple's ecosystem lock-in book. You know, Apple's done very well in hardware by making it just work better if you use all Apple stuff. Well, Google's doing kind of the same thing. They have it now, you know, they saw what happened with OpenClaw and they announced their own agent, Spark . Same idea, um, you know, they have this universal protocol for shopping, UCP, uh, so you never have to leave the Google page. And they're changing the front page of search, so it's not really a list of links, isn't the result. The result is the answer you want Well Mark Andreessen uh once said that he was investing in virtual reality goggles even though many of his San Francisco based friends didn't get it. Uh because he said uh you might think that the world is is beautiful walking through San Francisco, but in the future the vast majority of humanity will live in cement boxes in company towns and they're gonna really want BR gods. Oh my. Oh my god. So so that's a market opportunity by his logic, right? It's so funny. But it is if you think about it, all of the movies and sci-fi stories like Neuromancer and Ready Player One, they're always when they wear these things or jack in, they're in a dystopia. They are jacking in, they are wearing the visors to escape the dystopia. That's uh universal in sci fi. Well when where we where we look, the direction we look is the direction the car or the bicycle goes, right? So for goodness sakes, like let's look at something other than that. Yeah, that's right. Uh and and by the way, the other thing Google announced is they're gonna do these glasses. Of course Meta's uh Ray bands have been very successful, Google. I'm wearing them now. Are you? Oh yeah. Are you taking pictures of me? Uh I just took your picture. Oh gosh. You have no privacy, Leo. Dang you . Now I have to in defense wear my red array bands. Right. Ooh, can they talk to each other? Somebody uh said that they were able to get to modify this in some way that it could talk to their Hermes agent, which I would be very much happier talking to that than talking to Meta. These things drive me crazy. They keep talking at me when I don't talk. They talk all the time. I know they're very gabby. I know. I kids a lot. Larry, what is the what is the like ostensible purpose for having them? Like why why well you know, believe it or not, they have just launched in beta something called Conversation Focus. And it actually works better than Apple air AirPods and kind of better than my hearing aids. Because if I'm in a restaurant and I'm talking to you, your voice is going to be a pitch higher and the voices around me are going to be a little bit lower. So you're using them as a hearing aid? Kind of. Just in very specific situations, like in restaurants. Um beyond that . Do you have your prescription lenses in there? So these are these are your spectrum. I actually had I bought Gen 1 with my prescription lenses and then I these are Gen Two. They popped the lenses out and popped them right back in. So y this is what you wear as glass these are your glasses now. This isn't some accessory. Because there's to be recharged every few hours. They claim eight hours, you get about five or six. So if you use it, wow, you're all in on this. I didn't use them as headphones. I I talk to people . Sound good. Yeah, if I if I get a phone call, I click on it and uh Were you intrigued by the glasses Google is talking about their Android XR glasses? They'll come from Warby Parker and Gentle Monster and Samsung. Which is clever to work with Warby Parker. I like that idea. Do you think that's uh right now Meta works with uh SL or Exotica, so it's yeah, you know, that giant another giant monopoly. And Apple is rumored to be coming out with some glasses. We'll see what they come out with. Uh Mark Erman today in his uh power on newsletter, he's of course the Apple uh guru of uh of rumors, says that when Apple's uh WWDC announcement is June eighth, it's just two weeks away, uh they will really show something with AirPods and cameras in the AirPods that are tied to they're tying it initially to accessibility. You know, blind people will have these cameras and they can say what it is they're looking at and so forth. But ultimately , I think it's a similar plan that you're gonna see the world through these tech giants' lenses. That's the point. By the way, at WWDC, there's gonna be a slide with Connect Safely on it because we are their provider of Internet safety content and they're finally gonna talk about it in public. That's fantastic. They think they uh they only are because they have to. Yeah, well hey, I'll take it. No, that's great. I'm that's wonderful. I'll look for that. So this reminds me of of Doctor O's book uh Radicalized, right? Where uh the one of the characters has a a a subscription to aster oven. Is that is that what it is? And uh and she starts thinking subversive thoughts uh including I'd like to change the settings on my toaster. Shocking. Yeah, it makes quite a dramatic core doctor. I mean I would argue just in like just a little further down the road in terms of the market. And that's, you know, in China, they're telling you they're they're, you know, deciding whether you're considered on duty and getting paid at work or not, based on how focused your device tells the boss you are. Well, Amazon does that in their trucks already, right? Totally, right? And in this case, like won't pay you for the time that you are like goofing off by thinking about other things than your task, right? We have this story. I don't know if it' as tru ceouple a of couple of year years ago that the car the the um cameras and Amazon's uh delivery trucks notice if you're singing and will dock you. I don't know if that's that doesn't sound true. Stop being joyous human. How about that story on the list about the bipartisan uh discussion about banning flock uh video cameras? Right. Which is good, right? Yeah. So this is okay, so we've talked about it's really dystopian future. But I don't feel like the future is gonna be that bleak. I don't think these tech giants are gonna win. I don't know. There's very little evidence. For my belief. Bear with me here because I think what is there is a b there is definitely a tech lash. That's what that vote is about Flock. People, you know, you would think the government especially would want these automated license plate readers everywhere. It helps fight crime. And we've seen dramatic uh evidence that it's actually really useful in cases of abduction and and cr and criminals. Uh but but but people are starting to realize it also impairs privacy. And uh and we have some constitutional protections that it you know I mean you're you don't have protections on the street, you know, your license plate is public . But people kind of are cringing about that. I also think that the widespread use of AI is putting powerful tools in individuals' hands. So I was at Br I went to a demonstration at Berkeley last week, like you know, I meant to many demonstrations at Berkeley in the sixties when I went there. But last week actually two or three weeks ago, it was an anti social media, anti AI demonstration. There's a backlash. And it was really about we don't want these big tech companies running our lives. We want autonomy. We want agency. And these young Berkeley students were out there complaining about social media. Those are the same students booing the commencement speakers who mention AI . That's my favorite story of all time. I love that story from this week of everybody getting booed. Yeah. Eric Schmidt and uh uh other commencement speakers who walk in thinking I'm gonna talk about the future, which is gonna be very exciting for these young graduates, how they're going into this world with AI and and being shocked, shocked I tell you, that the graduates are going, boo , we don't, what are you the there's a disconnect So the Luddites didn't hate Lo oms, right? They hated the the power dynamics and the business model uh that that led to Looms putting them out of work. If uh if they had been like worker owned looms, uh then there'd be a a place for them. Hmm. Or looms that increased their productivity and and c allowed them to make more money and have more satisfaction over their jobs, they would have loved it. And that's how I look at AI. AI is great for me. It does nothing but good things for me. It makes me more productive, uh less reliant on other people. But on the other hand, I'm in a different Aaron Powell I mean if you work at Meta right now, right? You're part you're part of this like token Olympics that everybody's signed up for where they ha they're judged on how many tokens they can serve they consume, right? Like I know people at Amazon who say they're you know people are getting laid off on the basis of whether or not they're using it enough. You know, that is that is literally the beam changes. Backfiring on these companies. Oh yeah. It's like measuring lines of code. It isn't exactly that. I mean yeah, measure what they're accomplishing. How are they helping the company, not how they go about doing it? Well, and also, I mean, so guys, like tomorrow, right, the the Pope, this is me jump into a new topic here, but the Pope is coming out with this AI encyclical. Do you know about this? Yes. Right. So so the Pope Leo the Fourteenth um is talking about it it turns out on the anniversary of Leo the Thirteenth's encyclical. It's so cool. So he he I had no idea what a kind of like AI critic he is and and how long he's been thinking about this. So he took his name, his papal name from the last Leo because of, as you say, Leo, your your maybe your namesake too. I was not named after that pope. After that pope? Okay. Well it's a bit there there are worse popes to be named after because my dad was a lapsed Catholic. He hated it. He would never have named me after a pope. I could just say that 's so cool about so the last guy was in 1891 put out this thing, uh Rearum Novarum, this encyclical, this moral teaching, that basically said industrial capitalism, exactly what you're talking about, Marshall., you You know know, this being stuck at the loom is a nightmare. And is and what he was specifically warning about in that one is that industrial capitalism was going to change the value of human beings to a calculation of how much they can produce. Whereas what Catholic teaching supposedly says is that, you know, what is it? Imago Dei, right? You're supposed to be you're made in the image of God and that is your value. Being human is your value inherently . And they were saying don't let it become transactional, which is what they were seeing in these factories. Now, Leo the 14th, on the 135th anniversary to the day, uh signed the new one, which is all about AI. And when he was announcing why he was gonna call himself Leo in honor of this past one, he said specifically because he'd made this big social teaching around work and we are about to do the exact same thing with AI because it's it's such a problem. You know, I just that that the human worth thing, what is a human worth is really what this whole thing is gonna be. I still think what's interesting though is that Pope Leo isn't anti-AI. And I think we all here are using AI and and find it useful and find it empowering. There's this weird disconnect. I don't I think Leo uh du uh doesn't hate AI. He's very interested in AI and how it could be used. He doesn't he doesn't like it being used in Gaza. He doesn't like it being used. You know, it's it's those things that he's talking about. And and what I'm really hoping from tomorrow is that it's not just kind of the open vagaries of like watch out, but specifically names. Don't use it for this, don't use it for that. Here are the traps we fall into in into the past. You know, so I think you're you know, you're right, Leo. Like nobody he's he doesn't want to like go back to the to the past the way the last Leo did, but but I think Let's let's take a break before we before we do I have to take a break, but I do want to show this cartoon from uh the New Yorker Joe Dater and Kevin Maher. And the caption goes, and as you head out into the world, your fresh meaty torsos will be ripped apart and roasted to feed your new alien overlords. Wait, why are you all booing? Uh v very apt, very apro pos uh cartoon from uh the New Yorker. Actually, there there's another one in the New Yorker uh this week that's uh kind of uh similar. Uh it's a bumper sticker and it says uh oh what did it say? My my honor student. Let me show you this one. It's a bumper sticker on a car. It says, My honor student is very worried about AI. But and yeah, we love it. We I mean I talk about it all the time. We have a show dedicated to it. I use it daily. I have a very active agent that I'm using that is super hu useful to me. We're gonna talk about my medical use of it, I think it from the when we come back, let's do But you we're not yeah, we're we're not against it. We just don't uh want the big guys. And actually that's why I'm very excited that DeepSeq , which I know is the Chinese AI, but they've announced very cheap pricing and I actually put my agent on deep seek uh uh four pro and it's d it's really good and it's super cheap, which means I'm falling for it. I also last week Harper Reed came on and he said, you should buy this little device . It is an AI device you put on your desk. It's connects. He says, you just connect it to your Wi-Fi and it calls China. And then Deep Seek is talking to me. Oh, that's great, Leo. What could possibly go wrong? But so last week Harper said, right, that that the Chinese models have basically won everywhere in the world outside of the United States, right? Yeah. They're really good and they're really cheap and I wonder why they're so cheap. Yeah. That's why and everything you say and do now is going to be in Beijing. It says that's a dangerous combination. It actually is is agreeing with you, by the way, Larry. I just want you to know. Yeah. That's how they get your story, mm-hmm. Rosie the cat might get jealous though. It knows about my cat. Now I don't know how it knows about my cat and that her name is Rosie. Th that should be terrifying and yet memory for the important things in life. Like cats named Rosie. She's a special one, isn't she? Does she like to sit on your desk while you're working or does she prefer to supervise from a distance? Cox Media would like to uh to purchase some of those, right? I'm sending all of this to China, my friend s. I wore a I wore a bee for a while and I took it off. This is a thing you I was big into the bee. Yeah, and it boy it it creeped me out after a while. You know, I wore it for about a week and then I said, No, my d my life doesn't need to be in the cloud. Not my entire life I my my thinking behind all this was that at some point I'm gonna want an agent, especially as I age, that knows everything there is to know about me and can remember stuff for me and uh and can connect me to the world and be a be a assistant. And we'll talk about ChatGPT knows a lot about me and I'm glad it does, 'cause it helps it it helps me. Apparently so does this, which is a little scary. I don't remember telling it my cat's. So who do you China? China or Altman? Well that's that's the real question, right? Yeah. Hmm. Claude told me a few weeks ago uh when I asked it a question, it said, Well, I'm not a therapist, but you have shared enough notes from therapy with me that I can tell you that your problem is perfectly clear. What is your problem ? What's up with that? What's up with that? I uh actually uh uh keep a daily journal in Obsidian, and for the longest time I thought, what am I keeping this for? My kids don't care, and what am I gonna read this in 20 years? And now I realize I'm keeping it for my AI, and I have it read that every day, and it it adds to its memory. And it the whole idea is to get this thing smarter and more attuned to me so that it can be a personal assistant. The only thing I haven't given my AI is my tax It knows more about See, it really wants to know. Drown that thing, Leo. It's cost Drop it in your coffee. I'll ask Alexa Plus what the what the weather is and it wants to know what my plans are. Just tell me the way you're too. Where are you going to do? I don't you don't need to know what I'm gonna do to do. Can I help you buy something? Yeah, really . Would you consider an upgrade to those plants? You need an umbrella. Here we I'll have one delivered in fifteen minutes. We will have more with uh Larry Maggot, uh Marshall Kirkpatrick, and uh uh our good friend uh Jacob Ward in just a little bit. You're watching this week in tech . 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This c when Corey was on the show a couple of months ago, he said, Oh, this is nice. Look at this gear. Oh oh he you really get excited with meter you get a single partner for all your connectivity needs from first sight survey to ongoing support without the complexity of managing multiple providers or tools. Like I said, one number to call. Meter's integrated networking stack is designed to take the burden off of your IT team and give you deep control and visibility. Reimagining what it means for businesses to get and stay online. Meter. Built for the bandwidth demands of today and tomorrow. We thank them so much for sponsoring. Go to met er dot com slash twit to book a demo. Should do that right now met e r dot com slash twit to book a demo uh they feel your pain they've been there and they can help meet her so Larry you uh had a little medical em agency when you were uh back in New York. This was recently, right? Yeah, I just uh actually I've been in New York twice in the last week, but the first trip to New York, I guess about ten days ago, I was there for some meetings and on uh Monday I started getting a pain in my uh in my uh intestines. And I kinda, you know, didn't take it too seriously until Tuesday morning. The pain was still there. So I walked from thirty seventh street down to Greenwich Village 'cause my friend said the Greenwich Village emergency room was really good. Went in there, they took a CT scan and they sent me by ambulance to Lennox Hills Hospital. Holy cow. That's a little scary. And um while I was in the hospital, they kept taking blood and doing stuff. And by the time the phlebotomist left my room practically, I would get a notice on my app telling me my blood results, long before the doctor saw it. And that that's things people are used to. But what was really fascinating to me is when I got home and I logged in, I looked at it more carefully, not only did they show the radiology report of my CT scan, by the way, I'm fine. I just sat there for two days with an IV in my arm and I went it went away on its own. But point is that when I got home, I looked at the scan, the actual X-ray, or the C T scan. I can't read a CT scan, it means nothing to me, as it does I, turns out, to many doctors who aren't trained as radiologists. So I ran that into ChatGPT. It gave me a report which was very close to what the radiologists reported. Then I fed the radiologist report into Jet GPT and it gave me an even more detailed report. And then I said, take that scan and give me a new image where your circle where the blockage is. Wow. Give me any other significant findings. I want them annotated and I want them circled. It turns out, and this is true, I actually knew this, that because of a previous surgery, I have some scar tissue, it showed me visually that the blockage was right below the scar tissue. It showed me the uh the the part of my intestines that was uh dilated, the the bowel loop that was dilated. I had a complete map of what was going on inside my body, which far exceeded anything a doctor has ever told me. I mean, it was absolutely amazing. I took this to my my gastroenterologist when I get after I got home. I showed it to him. He was amazed. He admitted that he doesn't know how to read CT stands. And he was incredibly impressed. He said, Yeah, it's exactly what I can see from all your various reports. So take it for what it's worth, but Dr. Chout GPT did a heck of a good job explaining to me what was going on in my body . By the way, I I could share the Vim image with you, but the one thing to do. Okay, so this is what's really interesting about all of this is we can all tell stories somewhat similar. You know, actually my next project, I uh at one point had my full genome uh done uh by nebula neb nebula genomics. It was like fifteen hundred bucks. It's it's cheaper now, but it was like it's the it's not like um uh you know the little sample that they do with um you know, twenty-three and me. This is like the full genome . And um I have it. It's a couple of gigabytes, a big file. I wanna give it to the AI, I wanna feed it my current health situation , everything I know, and have it kind of keep track of stuff. And I've heard of people doing this . And yet, and I've heard of people saying, like you, Larry, wow, this was amazing. And yet, yeah, and yet here's a story uh from nature about a a made-up disease called bixonom ania. So uh this is actually Oh unfortunately I can't uh read this nature article, but I I have read it. This was actually created by a uh a scientist, a fake illness uh to test AI's abil uh willingness to kind of make up stuff. Uh Almira Osmanovich Slundstrom, a researcher at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden , invented Bixonomania, a totally made-up disease , put it out in the world in a way that AI would absorb it and then watched as it spread . Wow. And in fact, you may well, if you you may well, if you feed your health information to your AI, be told you're suffering from bixonom ania . Um blogs picked it up, preprints picked it up. It showed up in scientific journals . Apparently using AI , um sh sh she she m created uh a non-existent university in a non existent city, and scientists from that university with made up names like Lazy Devej Globevic, which if you put the name into Google Translate says the lying loser . Uh even the ty I mean she did not try to hide this . The title of the journal paper was Hyperpigmentation, a real BS Design . Like the whole thing was there was no attempt to disguise the fact that it was a hoax. Yeah. Yet AI had no idea . And the AI models picked it up and it has now spread. And this is an issue because well, so in in my case, whenever I get medical advice from AI, I always say cite your source. And I go to that source, and it has to be a source that I know and trust. If it's the Mayo Clinic, if it's the NHS in the UK, if it's Cleveland Clinic, I'm going to take it seriously. But I'm still not going to act on it. I'm not going to take a pill, I'm not going to g submit to a procedure until I talk to a doctor. And so to me it's the first draft of your medical information. It is by no means the final word. And I think that's what people I I have to say, to be fair, the people said the same thing about Wikipedia and said you shouldn't really trust it. Yeah. Because there is some mist there are mistakes in that. I agree. Yeah. But there's feedback loops i on Wikipedia in in other people. And in this case th those it it it seems to me, based on a quick scan of that article, that the preprint servers were the primary entry point. Right. And uh and those are not peer reviewed. No, it's like somebody turned off the peer review system. Similar to that other story about the uh the the government contractor that just turned off the the warnings about uh you know API keys and passwords saved in a CSV file and uh and and so suddenly all these government uh AWS uh accounts were exposed um and then it still took forty e hoighturs after they had been reported uh that that the credentials were were usable. So it I I think people need to to uh to learn to not turn off the learning system. Right. Did she publish this fake article on a reputable academic website? No, it went through preprint servers, which are great. You know, I mean they're they're so fast, so easy. You can search ive.org. There's so much amazing stuff out there, stuff like that. But buyer beware. Now I just asked I have to say I'm very impressed. I just asked uh deep seek uh via my uh agent, Hermes. What do you know about Bixonomania? And it said a brilliant hoax and perfectly on brand for an intelligent machines discussion. Researchers at the University of Gothenburg invented a completely fake eye condition in 20 24, loaded it with absurdities no human would miss, and watched AI chatbots confidently tell people it was real. The symptoms were sore eyes and dark circles from blue light. The name ends in mania, which is of course a psychiatric disorder, not an eye condition. The university, Asteria Horizon University in Nova City, California was completely made up. There was a Star Trek reference in the paper acknowledging Professor Maria Bom at Starfleet Academy aboard the USS Enterprise. This was in the paper . By 2026, Microsoft Copilot was calling it, quote, an intriguing and relatively rare condition. Gemini said it was caused by excessive exposure to blue light, and and this is the sad thing, in a actual peer-reviewed paper in Springer Nature's uh Curious Journal, they cited the hoax preprints, all of which have since been retracted. The Nature Expos forced model corrections, and that's why my model apparently knows about it. It's basically the AI era version it says of a mount weasel, those trap street entries cartographers use to catch map plates Wow, that's pretty deep. Does Robert F. Kennedy know about this disease? Probably. It's just a matter of time. So the so the truth has got its pants on now, right? It does. It took it it took it a while. So here's the here's what I I my feel like w there's two things that we're talking about here, right? There's there's the tendency of it to be wrong if you game it right, and our tendency to believe it, right is one problem. Two different yes. That's you know, that's that's a problem, a big bucket of problem. But the other problem is one, Larry, that I feel like is is a really you know, like I I I what I really want is for every patient to have your experience where they've got professional help, they've got people they can call, they've got referrals happening quick enough to deal with their medical issues, and they've got the benefit of this second opinion, this digital second opinion that helps decode the process. As a package, awesome. The problem is the market doesn't like that. What the market wants is to knock all the other things out and leave only the digital thing because it is the cheapest thing to use. And this is why like Michigan right now is experimenting with like just determining whether your SNAP benefits come to you based on an AI system. And it's basically doing away with the people you could ever call when you have a problem, right? It's they're so quick to get rid of the experts on the human layer because that's the most expensive layer. Because the whole promise of the of the market of AI is that you don't need that stuff. And so to for my mind, it's the in the immediate use that you're describing in this moment, awesome. And I'm so excited about it. But as soon as they commoditize that and begin to believe like, well , one in ten thousand people won't have a good experience, but everybody else gonna have a good experience. So so we're gonna knock out you know the eight hundred number you'll never have that again that's where I go I I am grateful for the radiologist I'm grateful for the surgeons I'm grateful for my gastroenterologist I'm really grateful for Medicare for paying for all of this. And I my big fear is that the government may very well not want to do that in the future if they can do it cheaply without having to pay these expensive doctors to to remove this stuff. Oz already has made some kind of automated weird automated system. I gotta look back and did I wrote a piece for Hard Re Reset Media. It's called Hard Reset Media.com, the about about how um Oz has put in some kind of automated system where things that would normally be pre-approved under Medicare suddenly get spiked automatically. And the real problem is that the company that makes that technology is incentivized , they're paid a bonus the more times they reject a claim. Right? Which is scary. And that's that's where we the wheels start to come off. And it's even you know it's funny, people worry about the the future of Medicare. You're talking about the present of Medicare. People my age who are already getting the benefits at risk. No, and that corporations capture the benefits and socialize the costs and risks. And as and as many a great leader has pointed out, you don't get to make money off sick people really. You don't get to make money off of solving education, really. Like that's what government's for, you know. And the the idea that we're gonna somehow like get the Silicon Valley efficiency in everything is is what could go to what what could that do for us? Yeah, right, exactly. We've seen it. We've seen it. That's right. That's right. That really helped. And yet according to the AMA, two in three two out of three physicians are using AI , which has almost doubled since 2023. They surveyed 1200 doctors, and two-thirds of them are doing what you did, Larry. I actually have given my doctor medical advice. My my my no, I have told him things that he did not know about and he went off and read about so you know literally that thing you were telling me about. I hadn't I hadn't heard that. It's actually pretty good pretty good information. I I had a uh my annual uh physical on Friday and I have spent a quite a long time talking to my doctor about the use of AI. He's very interested. But the the point here is here's somebody who has judgment, skill, experience , and practice, who can take the information the AI gives him them and vet it and make sense of it. And it's a very good partnership. And I think that this is what we see over and over again. The humans plus AI are the right answer. Need a letter to AIs and an expert. But the AIs fight. Plus a subject matter expert. I I always so I always start with chat GPT and then I run it through Gemini. And the reason is Gemini is less likely to sugarcoat it. Right. So if you have a medical issue, chat GPT tends to kind of wait, it's gonna be okay. Don't worry about it. Whereas Gemini will tell you much more much more straight about what's going on. So you it it does pay to get a second opinion even from different models. Now as you were talking about one of you were talking about, if they start homogenizing, then I worry that 's not good. You want them to be rods a not question , you know, I actually had an experience once where I asked uh I I use Stanford Healthcare and I asked two different doctors at Stanford Healthcare I went to our second opinion. And the problem is they both have access to each other's notes. So the second doctor gave me exactly the same opinion. Now maybe the opinion was right, but I wanted somebody who didn't know what the first doctor had to say. And I had the same thing is with AI. I want the AI to independently give me information so I can compare the different different reports. to remember that a great deal of your experience of with the AI is not coming from the stuff in the LLM and the weights in the LLM, but the stuff that happened afterwards, the the reinforcement learning, the, you know so-called soul document, the personality uh that these companies apply to it. They these companies see this as differentiators, but they very much put their thumbs on the scale. Anthropic open AI, Deep Seek, Google, everybody very much modifies that AI and modifies the weights. And that could also be a source of a lot of the problems. But it also maybe why Google by Gemini is a little more little less sugar coating. That's totally why it's different. But what I like one of the things I really the training material for all of them is pretty much the same, right? Yeah. But one thing and I think it's good it's chat GPT that well, I tire a medical history. When I tell it something, you say, well, given your age and given this and that, it knows all the medications I take. If I thinking about a new medication, I just say, is it okay for me to take this? And it says, yeah, it won't interact with this, or yeah, you know, you better worry because it might interact with that. I you know it's funny I showed my doctor uh I said, look, these are all the supplements I take. This is what the AI said about 'em. This is it told me don't you got too much calcium, get ri he said, Yeah, because of kidney stones. I said, Yeah. So I asked him, I said, you know, this is what it's telling me. What do you think? And he was okay. I think he preferred at least some information to no information, right? So you showed your work and and I feel like there's a segue here available to uh to Jacob's Substack post that's listed as his most popular post on Substack uh about how AI is getting us to lie to ourselves. Uh where you're so sweet. Thanks, man. Yeah. So Jacob wrote this post. Actually, hold the thought. Let's let's save it because I want to do an ad and then I do want to talk about this because it it was a great piece. I appreciate it, guys. Uh as well. And uh and I think I'm yeah, I'm glad you brought it up, Marshall. But hang on. Uh great panel, great conversation. Larry Maggot is here, connectsafely.org. He's representing the radio newsman segment of the audience. How many years in radio though? I've been in in radio fifty years this uh Oh, you got me beat. Twenty-five years with CBS and I did a little bit of stuff with all things considered an NPR and I was a regular guest. I was a regular guest on the Ron Owen show on KGO for a while. Yep. Me too. But and also Michael Jackson on K A B C. But you know, uh professionally paid about twenty-five years with actually getting paid for it. Yeah. I I got into radio in college and I never left. Oh I did that too, but I didn't I'm not counting that but yeah. Oh I'm college College radio is great. I love college. The clock started ticking when I got my FCC license, which you don't need anymore. You don't need no sticking license. You know what's funny? When I when I I applied to be a DJ on the college radio station and the DJ, the music guys didn't want me at all. They sent me over the news department. I was kind of mad about it. Can you make me do news? I remember my first rip and read newscast. I was shaking like a leaf holding the holding the paper that I'd ripped off the teletype machine. My my college radio station you could only hear it in the dorm through the electrical system at UCLA. They broadcast through the power. I don't know how they did it. Yeah, yeah. Uh Marshall Kirkpat rick is also here. His uh incredible app, what's up with that, is available for uh your browser, Firefox or Chrome . Uh and it really is a great way of kind of getting some deep knowledge about the pages you're visiting. Very, very useful. Thanks. Yeah, if we're gonna talk radio. I just want to put in a plug for Dan what's uh Dan's name? Ay gu out in the Redwoods who for years has been doing the Global Shortwave Report, uh collecting English language news coverage from around the world. Radio Havena, Radio Deutschland, radio Japan and weaving them together into this great show of shortwave uh news. Real old fashioned style, but he's still pumping it out. Do you have to listen? It's Dan Roberts of Willetz, up in Willetz. Do you have to listen on a shortwave? Can you oh no no he there's in between files? Uh it's a it's an I it's a podcast. I love it. Thirty-minute review of news stories. Oh, I'm re recorded from a shortwave radio. Are they actu al recordings? Yeah . Oh my god, that's just okay. Can I play just a little bit of it? Does it go through the shortwave report? So then you're the relation . She demanded It was so cool and you'd you'd you'd get Russian and you'd but and then many of the I don't I'd wonder if it's the same. I guess it is. Many of these shortwave uh company uh country run shortwave uh stations would have English language broadcasts so you could you could hear the Russian radio in English. Yeah. But now they're streaming. Now that well, I'm subscribing to this right now. From Outfar Pr And he sound he sounds like he's kind of a little far out, to be honest with you. He's been broadcasting off the electric grid in Willetz, California for probably thirty plus years. Oh yeah. In uh in Perump , Nevada. Not Art Bell. Art Bell. He would do his radio, his overnight radio show would be over, and then he'd go out to his Hamshack and do another three hours. I learned about those two shows from the same old friend. That's how that's how you know a guy loves radio. He can't get enough of it. Oh, he was the UFO guy. It was great. It was great for the middle of the night. Because you'd hear the craziest, you know, bigfoot stories. I loved AM high, you know, AM radio in the middle of the night. I loved I love listening to faraway stations at AM. I still fantasize in my retirement of just turning on the turning on the transmitter and sitting here at three in the morning just talking taking calls with the crazies. Jacob Ward's also. Do you do you have any radio background, Jacob? You have a big on-air sign. You know, I I don't get it. You've always been TV. You're a TV guy. Yeah, I've always done TV. I do, you know, I have a podcast. I mean my podcast is there, but yeah, I would have loved to be. I I'm you know, always feel like I was born ten years too late for everything. So yeah, I wish I'd I wish I'd been part of the hate. No, he's a he's got a face for TV. You and I, Larry. Radio. Even though we've both done TV, but yeah . Yeah, so I'm I love that. I you know, I love that medium. I think it's a good idea. Well this is really what we're doing is radio. We have video, but it's radio. It's we t still the majority of people who listen to our shows listen, not watch. Even though we've always had to go for a walk, you can drive a car. You don't have to do it screening. Do the dishes, walk the dog. Yeah. We'll have more in just a bit. The uh show today brought to you by Box . This is a really good example of a company who's been around, done great stuff. 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And so yeah, Marshall God, I'm so grateful to you for for mentioning this. Yeah. This is this is one of those pieces. I like it. You do the video as well , which is nice. And the audio if you want to listen. What do you mean by that? So I don't know about you guys, but like I I keep being in the weird position of and I and I'm I'm rather than blame blaming other people, I'll just do it myself. Like I'll say words like, I have made a thing. You know, um I just was, you know, I just threw this together for our meeting. You know, I that like there's something in the way that I think about and talk about my use of AI that is not fundamentally honest. And I and I and I've noticed it in a lot of people around me. And I think there's something about both the sort of the way it's built in that it's always sort of uh it's it's like you're, you know, you're always ready, you know, intern who's there kind of helping you get it done quick before you have to go on stage, you know, kind of vibe. Uh that that creates this impression that you somehow have to keep your use of it to yourself kind of. And we haven't come up as a society. It's our dirty little secret, is itn't? Yeah. Yeah, it is. And and it's and it's so interesting because we have some, you know, I talked to some people whose workplaces you get fired for not using it enough. Right. There are other people I talked to who where you get fired if you used it. You know, I sometimes am a little squirmy about admitting how much I'm using AI. We don't admit it. And I think there's something also in the marketing that these companies are creating for us, this idea that you're gonna like sort of get away with it. Here's a here's an embarrassing story. Let me tell you this is an embarrassing story. So so I used a service for about three or four months, that basically took an AI, created an AI derived email and put it out to a million podcasts trying for me to try and get booked on podcast It worked. See, you're here. Well, you and you and me came together the old fashioned way, thank God. Oh, okay. Thank God. Well, it's great too, because I've w I wound up on a lot of weird podcasts. It was great. I just had such a great weird tour of like all everybody and their mother who's got their got a mic and a basement. It is great, you know, it's crazy. It's an interesting community, isn't it? Yeah, I was on dozens and dozens and dozens of podcasts. And some of them were great, some of them were less great. Um, you know, one crew wanted to talk about aliens. You know, there's some weird stuff there's just some weird stuff going on. But the the thing that was so dishonest about it is that the AI service sends an email as if it's from me, right? Saying, and and one of the things it does, and if you're in media, you'll know this, it'll say, Jake, I just listened to the most recent episode of the Ripcurrent. I can't stop thinking about this specific thing in your thing. And the first couple times that I was received an email like that, I was like, wow, this guy's listened to my show. Amazing. You know? And it I immediately when I see those, I stop. Now you know, right? Now you know but for that like two or three weeks, it worked and I was part of that two or three weeks where and I tricked I think a bunch of podcast hosts into getting me on because we love being praised. We love it if somebody listens to our show. Yes and I and and then I've I adopted after a f the first couple of appearances I began adopting the policy of telling people like, Listen, you guys, I got booked on here 'cause of AI and it's l and that's ridiculous 'cause I'm on here flogging my thesis, which is that this s is gonna ruin our lives, you know. You know. So it was deeply hypocritical. But I I that kind of thing where it's like getting dressed up as if it's our work is a fundamentally dishonest proposition that I think is happening a lot right now. And we're very quick. And what I really want is for young people who are actually in charge of culture to come up with the cool way of saying, oh, I've I, you know, I AI'd this, I made this, you know, uh through this system. I didn't really write this, you know. You know what young people have done, and I know this because we have a young person on our AI show, uh, Paris Martin oh, I know you know her, uh, and she's taught me all of these things. They have many words. They call it glazing when the AI is sycophantic and tells you things you want to hear. They call the AI's clankers. Yeah, clankers my favorite. That's my favorite. They they talk a lot about slop. That's actually gotten into the main stream now. AI slop. Um, and they have a lot of negative. They've got the good negative language. We need a way for the two of us to say , you know, I agented this. Or I you know what I mean? Like I'm not the right guy for the other thing. I have a question though, because in this this is personal, you know, and I I I throw it I focus on this a lot. So I will use AI as kind of a copy editor. You know, maybe change a word here to first of all, make sure the grammar and the spelling and the punctuation is correct. I don't have any qualms about that. But once in a while it'll suggest a minor word changing. And I don't know whether I need to disclose that. It's it's less than a year. No. But exactly. You you filed stories, the Mercury News, where a copy editor rephrases it. Okay, yeah. And I'll say, is there a better way to phrase this? And then I don't know. Between using it kind of as a grammar a grammarly type product versus using it to generate content. And I mean I would never say, write me a column, even though it would and it might not be bad. I would never do it because I'm getting paid for this stuff. And it would just feel dishonest to take money for something I didn't do. But you know where is the line ? I I I actually think that there's not not to be uh one of those people that says I read your most recent article, Jacob, uh but I read your bru your most popular article on there and uh the the thing that stood out to me about that uh was the discussion of effectively the the Trojan horse situation there where you were trying to figure out how to grow your substack and and you asked Chad GPT, give me some tips for how to grow my Substack, and it was saying like, well, you know, do this, do that. If it bleeds, it leads. If people are mad at you and post angry comments, that's better than nothing. And you found yourself thinking, yeah, yeah, that's right, it that better than nothing. And then you said, hold on a second. I'm a journalist with journalistic ethics. I I don't want to just traffic and outrage for its its own sake. Whoa, I almost thought that was my own thought for a moment. And then I came up with this. And that seems really nefarious. That's exactly right. We've always done that, haven't we? I mean, you read something and it suddenly you absorb it and it becomes your idea. And that's how humans are. But that but it wasn't I mean, I guess I guess there's always been slop, but not like this, man. I I I don't know, you know, and and and for me, I think about the like the problem right now in our business, uh I mean Leo, you've sort of conquered this problem already, but like for me, trying to get an independent media brand, you know, off the ground is the volume I was very, very fortunate that I did this before there was as much noise. I mean you've got a you've got a huge volume, Leo. Yeah, but we did we started twenty-one years ago. I don't think I could start today and do this. I built early in your career. A career based on main stream media and was able to then segu e into new media and and it was so early in new media that I was able to stand out. There were only five or six podcasts when I started podcasting. It was a lot easier, let me tell you. And YouTube didn't exist. So one problem that we're then in is like if if we're if if you 're a glut of content now. If you take a principled stand now and you say, I'm just going to write every single thing and do it all by hand . You're never going to be able to put out the volume you would need to be noticed in this market, which is going to now adapt to the idea that we all need to produce at the pace that AI makes possible. And so it puts everyone in an impossible position. I had an ear I remember having a conversation with somebody high up in a big mainstream organization and and uh media organization, and this person said to me, You should write more for the site. You know, basically it was their advice. And I and I sort of said, like, do you this was a few years ago, like, do you do you know what's about to happen to the value of the written word? Like like as a market just you know as a as a unit price it's about to go to zero and so the the the for me what my tactic has been I'm gonna stick with video as much as possible because that seems to create a one-to-one connection that people like. There's some authenticity to the idea that I'm just talking off the top of my head, you know, based on my experience and my ethics and the rest of it, right? But I just it's just me talking, not in a scripted way. And then I will use AI to like, you know, help me construct a research dossier that I that I distribute based on what I've I' Is that antithetical to authenticity though? I know, right? I mean, I mean you're not gonna say hey I I generate a p and and just publish it based on AI but, w how will you use it to enhance your writing and and and how far will you go with it? When we I think honestly the more we see AI and the more we use AI , the good news is that means humans become more valuable. This happened with facts. You know, once the facts used to be a rare and precious commodity. If you wanted to know something, you had to go to the library. You had to get you had to make a trip to go to the library to find out something. And remember we would buy encyclopedias so that you would have some sort of reference material. Yeah. Marshall, you're reaching for your encyclopedia, I can tell. Yeah, I have my my laptop is stacked on three of them, right? That's what it's for now. It's a doorstop. But but facts used to be very valuable and they have become in this internet world worth nothing. Yeah. And people used to be good. And truly people with great memories had value, right? People who had four years old. I used to when I started so I was doing the tech guy radio show for almost twenty years. In the early days, the value I had was I could remember off the top of my head an answer to a question. So somebody come in and say, Yeah, my printer's not working. I'm using Windows uh 95, what's and I could remember the answer and by the end of it it was really a question of if I could Google faster than the caller right in there. Um I hate to admit this, but it really became that's a good thing because it democratized facts. Is it's Gresham's law you're saying, Marshall? What's that? Arguably the that's a relevant uh concept here that uh yeah that that the that the low cost, low quality stuff uh ends up just being produced in in so such uh huge quantity that uh that the rarer harder stuff just gets lost in a in a sea. I do think though that this in the long run benefits humanity because in a sea of machine-produced facts or information of machine created that stuff is is becomes table stakes. And what we add to it as humans becomes more valuable as a result. Right. Yeah. And your value Leo wasn't so much you knew I hope. Your your value wasn't so much you knew the answer, but you knew how to put it in perspective. You could actually I knew how to deliver it. Yeah. But you know, it's funny funny story. I would do two ways for CBS all the time for the stations, and once in a while they would hip prompt me with a question, a topic, and then they and they got it wrong. They switched topics on me, and they would ask me a question to which I had no idea what they were talking about. And exactly I would go on Google while they were answering the question and act like I knew. Bill Handel would do that to me all the time on KFI. That's when you know if you've got it or not in broadcasting, how quickly you can dance. You know, Walter Cronkite became famous because they'd be covering these famous Apollo and Gemini launches, and they'd be a hold, right? At T minus 20 seconds. And for three hours, he had to sit there. And all he had was some guy and a model of the rocket, and he would fill it. They used to call it Walter Cronk ite old iron butt ons because he could sit there for hours and talk. And that's when the that's when the rubber hits the road, or m more likely the corduroy hits the uh seat Versus Altman trial. You were there. You were in person there. I was. I watched this world's richest man stammer away on the on the get angry on the stand. It was great. And you watched speaking of lies, you watched Sam Altman being accused of being a liar. Oh yeah. No, that's good. I really it was fascinating. It was a fashion. I gotta get this first person account of the uh Musk Altman trial, which is over, at least for the time being. Uh Elon the the jury said uh didn't file soon enough, so the statute of limitations, which is only three years on this, had run . Um but that's kind of a technicality. Elon said that himself. He said they I lost on a technicality, so I'm appealing. I'm curious what what the merits of that appeal will be, but we'll ask Jacob Ward that question in just a bit. We also have Marshall Kirkpatrick here. What's up with that? Which is the best name for a product I've ever heard. What's up with that? Uh maybe I'm gonna write one called How You Doing? But that's another another one. Larry Maggie, you grew up in New York, right? No, I was born in New York, grew up in LA. LA. That's right. Your transplant. Yeah, I was born in New York, grew up in uh Rhode Island. So I love New York. Go there . Me too. Me too. What's up with that? We'll have well we'll have more in just a bit. How you doing? But first a word from our sp onsor, Doppel . This is uh a sad story about the way of the world how it is now. You get that that phone call, that voicemail, maybe it's an urgent message from your CEO . Maybe it's a deep fake trying to target your business. AI can impersonate trusted individuals and it's very easy to be fooled. In fact, I'm gonna show you how easy it is to be fooled. I'm just gonna play a little something that uh was sent to Burke, one of our employees. Hey Burke, this is definitely not Leo asking you to buy gift cards. But seriously, can you grab me 100 Apple gift cards? Just kidding. This is Anthony testing text-to-speech. How's it sound? That is not me. I never said that. It sounds exactly like me. And fortunately, Anthony, who made this, has some honor. But if a thief using the same technology, he literally did this with a couple of minutes of my of of of one of our podcasts could make something very similar sounds just like me. Thank goodness Burke did not send those those gift cards out. This is a problem. AI can impersonate trusted individuals really well . And Doppel's platform illustrates how frequently, this is also the bad news, users fall for phishing attempts. They they did a voice call simulation deployment. Target users spent six minutes conversing. It wasn't just a message, conversing back and forth with a deep fake. At the end of the six minutes, every one of them 100% believed that the AI was a human was the person they said it was. They didn't they could not tell. That's why you need Doppel. Doppel is the AI native social engineering defense platform. Doppel strengthens human risk management by training employees to recognize deception while their digital risk protection detects and disrupts attacks across every channel. It is a scary world out there as attackers turn to AI to power increasingly sophisticated strikes, Doppel uses it to fight back. With automated takedowns, multi-channel coverage, and AI defenses that build intelligence with every fight, Doppel works relentlessly to protect people, brands, and trust. Doppel offers best-in-class integrations and partnerships to seamlessly integrate into your existing security tech stack. Doppel's industry awards and testimonials speak for themselves. Doppel is recognized as a winner 2026 G2 leader of users most likely to recommend, Momentum Leader, Best Support . Join hundreds of companies already using Doppel to protect their brand and people from social engineering attacks like the one you just heard. Doppel. Outpacing what's next in social engineering. Learn more at Doppel.com. D-O-P-P-E- L dot com. And Burke, stop sending out those Apple gift cards. I I told you it's a fake. I told ya . So uh f was it was so how did you get into the trial, Jacob? I mean was uh How did you do that? The coolest thing about the American court system is that anybody can go in. So so you can I mean that's the theory, right? Is all trials are supposed to be public. Well it in my case it was true. So I did not go in under anybody's auspices. I you know I was officially an a a CNN person, but I really just wanted to see like can it work to just get in as a member of the public. And so I there was a there was a group of reporters and and I showed up and uh you know a long line of them and I was part of that for a while. But I just went in as part of a part of the public. And when I got upstairs and the the media person for the court, who I don't know personally, but I knew that's what she was, she asked, Who are you with? And I said, I am a member of the public. And she said, Right this way. Wow. And it was so cool. Yeah. So cool. I remember as a teenager I used to go sit in in courtrooms. It was uh it was really cool. It's so cool. So so you sit there. But those were not, by the way, I was one of the few. I mean, that was not Altman versus Musk. No, no, that's right. This was cool. I mean there were so many interesting people because there was a bunch of looky-loos. There was a bunch of just like people who wanted to be there and be part of it. And everybody came to the stand. I mean, you got to see the uh who's who of Nadella , you know, um uh you know, uh what's his name? Um Ilya Sutzkever, like all these people. Um Greg I mean it was great. Greg Brockman's diary ended up being entered into evidence by OpenAI, which was a huge mistake. If I've learned anything, don't write this stuff down, people. Like I don't know, like I don't care how famous you think you're gonna be someday, like or what you think your biographers need, like don't be writing that stuff down. I've said this many times. Nobody ever wins these kinds of trials because of discovery. Yeah. Well that's that's right. I mean, that's why we were all there, right? Is because the discovery was so amazing. To see how these guys write back and forth to one another is so amazing. The best one for me was at one point, Musk and Altman, you know, they so they so they get together in 2015, they say they do this little handshake about they're gonna like create this non-profit that's gonna change the world. And literally at one point they're negotiating about what it is the board will look like. And Musk writes in , I don't have the exact words in my mind, but it was something like, we're gonna have a board of 12 people, but we should consider whether we want to expand it to 16 people, depending on how much literally this is these words were the ones he used, depending on And I was thinking to myself, okay, a board of twelve, but then is is not ready for that. But a board of sixteen is All we need is four more people, and the fate of the world will be rest assured. Right? It's not us four. Like, I don't think it's the four of us, right? It's like I'd want I said I was I told my mom, I was like, I think I'd want you on that board. She's like, I don't want on that board. Do you think Elon Musk genuinely believes or believed at the time that AI was a threat to human existence. I do think he actually believes that on some level. But I think he that that belief also, it seems to me, is exactly balanced by his very equal belief that he is the only one who can save us all from that. Right. Like he's he his the thing that you saw over and over and again is just that the guy clearly believes he's the only one who matters The ego is incredible. Yeah, the ego. I mean everybody there was that way. I mean but didn't have an ego. Sam Waltman had an ego. Greg Bartman, such an intel I mean they all have egos. Totally. If you if you want to like make these people upset, as many of these lawyers were trying to do, just accuse them of of having made no technical contributions to the product. Their heads would pop off. You just see them be like, oh God, you know, yes, I do. I got the servers and I the blah blah blah you know. That's a great strategy for the opposing lawyers. Totally. The only guy who kept cool, who stayed cool, was Nadella, who clearly he was like a guy at a bar where two of the guys he's come with are fighting, and he says to the bouncer, I'm not with these guys. Like I just I know them, but sure, but I'm not part of this, you know. And he was just trying to get out of the bar, basically. The of course as as CEO of Microsoft they have a large stake in open AI and a kind of checkered relationship with open AI. Yes. He was so calm and cool under it though, he basically was like, you know, we're just trying to sort of like you know , help this industry work because it's gonna work so well for our customers. You know, it's just so he was just buy the book, but you know, about it. Whereas he's a well trained CEO. This is why I hate interview CEOs because they're so well trained. They're like sports, you know, it's like athletes, right? They just went to the water. We just came to play, man. We're just here to win. Um you know, and in in in Altman and Musk's case, they were very weird and philosophical, and then that would get objected, and da-da-da. They were very odd ducks. And then, you know, the best part, I mean what I loved the most was just, again, this public courthouse vibe is so great. So it this is Oakland, California. It's not a very fancy federal courthouse. And as a result, there's no VIP section. So like Musk doesn't get to like wait in some green room. Uh Altman doesn't get his own bathroom. So literally Musk in the brakes is going up and down the hallway with his security, just like pacing, basically, because there's nowhere to be and he doesn't want to stand around talking to Altman. And Altman at one point, I had to wait awkwardly in line with him for the urinal. You know, we're just standing together. It's so great. You know, what's up? You know, and to see that. And then I will say my my like what I also learned is that my kink is watching the world's richest man being slapped around by the judge, this judge Yvette Gonzalez Rogers and him saying, Yes, your honor to the she takes no prisoners. She yelled at Apple for lying in the Apple versus Epic case. In fact, she now holds them by a very uh sensitive portion of their anatomy because she's gonna decide what their what their commission will be in the app store . Yep. Uh same judge. And uh she did not she said she told uh these guys, I don't want to hear anything about AI Doom. That's right. That's right. Don't let us get we're not getting distracted by that. At one point Yeah, I did too. I just thought she she did such a good job. Anyway, so like I say, it was just fun to watch American, like the last true American democratic thing. Do you feel like it justice was done? Well, I mean in the end, I I think that these you know obviously like it got dismissed on technicality, right? The statute of limitations . But was the the jury was not was only there in an advisory capacity. That's right. Just have made she could have made she would have made the decision in the end. They judges impanel a jury like this for an advisory to kind of give themselves cover when they have to make a really good idea. I had no idea that was even possible. Yeah. Yeah. So she kind of got off easy too in that she didn't have to take any p any guff. Although I don't think she cares. I mean she's just such such a tough person. She's a she was great. But I think that the like ultimately this was like billionaires throwing lawyers at each other, which I which is not how I want the future determined. But it was undermines his whole story by by the fact that he has a competing entity uh frontier AI company called XAIN. Sure, sure. That is going straight at it's for profit going straight at open AI. Uh so it kind of undermines his whole argument. Yeah, and just pumping out natural gas power a day and night in secret beyond anything that's a if you're concerned about the future of humanity, for goodness sakes, go get some solar Well not to mention the uh I mean I'm sure the jury doesn't isn't allowed to say this, but I doubt any jury has too much sympathy for a guy who is a trillionaire. Exactly. We we never got to see the AI pilots Tesla, he could literally kill people. I mean, you know, this is and he already has. What's your sense of Sam Altman's uh character and veracity? During the middle of this trial, of course, the New Yorker came out with a well uh uh essentially a hit piece written by Ronan Farrow uh uh implying that Altman was less than trustworthy. Kind of slimy and slippery it's yeah it came up again and again and again in testimony basically you had Ilya Sutzkever saying he had a pattern of lying, you know, these former board members saying, oh yeah, he he would deceive us over and over again. And then he was asked on cross-examination by Musk's attorneys, um, do you lie? Are you a liar? And he's under oath. So he can't say no. He has to say he has to waffle. And so he did. He was like, he said, I'm sure I have lied in my time in my life, that kind of thing. And then and then um you know but but over and over again he was sort he was clearly unable to say he he just kept saying, I consider myself honest in my business dealings. I feel like Sam Altman was not done well by his team because he must have known that that question was gonna come up. And he really seemed ill prepared. They they asked him, Are you completely trustworthy? And instead of just saying yes , he he said, Well, I I believe so . Do you always tell the truth? Believe I'm a truthful person. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he was not well prepared. His people did not do him justice, I think. I I mean, I think when you're when you're used to being a kind of backroom dealer, like he clearly is, that's the thing. You know, but he also, I mean, there was a point at which at which um they were ask ing him why it was that he had insisted on being CEO. And there was emails from Greg Bachman and Ilya Sutzkever saying, why do you want to be CEO? Is it because of your political ambitions? And Molo, Musk's attorney, asked him, what is that about? Did you want to be president of the United States? He said sort of rhetorically. And Altman said, No, no, no, no. I was considering a run for governor. Oh, it's like the casual way in which these guys clearly believe they are the main characters of the universe, uh, and the rest of us are just kind of background actors was the that was the theme for me of this trial. It is fascinating to watch. I mean uh they don't live in our world, do they ? Every nobody says no to them . Uh you know, they they never really are called to account for anything. And they and they believe that the money is their reward from God for doing good works. Yeah. Because they they keep talking about how it's not about the money. And then they would and then the and then the lawyers would lay out like, here's the seven billion dollar stake you have in this company And you could just see that it just didn't commute compute for them. They just think of it as, well, clearly like the universe is going to just reward me endlessly such that I'll never have to think about money again because my work is so brilliant and important. Right. So there's this weird sort of set of background assumptions. You know, I'm I just remember remember that that for it's it's been true for a while that that inside some companies you'll have this hierarchy in which the the language is like some people are agents and some people are NPCs, right? That some people count, have agency and some people are just are literally just like the video game characters that you run over with your car. You know, like it's that it's that thing that I that I feel like I'm saying. What do they call them in the succession? Not a real person . The theyy''re notre not a a real real man and Elon Musk's play that we are NPCs that they're and I'm sure Elon actually believes that that that he r he believes we're in a simulation and that really the rest of us barely exist. And Elon Elon, you know, he long ago fired his press team. Uh he he he doesn't he doesn't feel he needs anything that he can't simply control . And I think he 's not wrong. He elected the president with a quarter of a billion dollars. That's right. And he lays people off not just to save money, because he just wants to run things himself as much as possible. And he may you know uh uh uh he may well be a genius. I I I uh he has some real success. Well and then but that's the problem is that no one says no to him or no one says you know, the um Tesla famously and fortunately a lot of EVs have you have a Tesla, right, Larry? I do. A lot of t lot of EVs have followed suit. Has its uh charging plug in the wrong place. Uh, because in many cases, when you have to go to a supercharger, you need to back in, or they had to make the superchargers with extra long charging cables because the plug's in the back. Well, it turns out his engineer said we should put the plug in the front, like the like many of the early EVs that actually was in the front grille. So it'll be easier to charge. And Elon said, no, well, I'm renting this house and I can't, I need to have the plug in the back 'cause that's the easiest place for me to plug in. As a result , every E V sense has its plug in the wrong place. Except the Nissan Leaf, which is the good news is if you have if you pay a hundred dollars a month for full self driving, it will back in for you. It'll back in for you. There you go. I I actually own my my self driving. I don't have to do it. Do you really? And do you trust the brother I bought it a gazillion years ago for seven grand and I get to keep it. So at least I got to keep it through two Teslas. We'll see what I paid in the future. Foolishly, because I had a Model X, a first generation Model X, paid some huge amount of money for the right, for the right to at some point get full self driving, which I never Which to me is a class action food in the making, I don't know how you can possibly get away with that. I think it was five thousand dollars for the right to subscribe to full self driving should it ever I mean, I still don't have truly full s full self driving. It's not unfair. You never will. I never will. Yeah. It will never be a robo taxi. My car I will never make money leasing out my car as a robo taxi. He's promising that. Yeah, oh he promised to me. Not personally, but from made in America to made with American values in mind. Oh, you're talking about the Trump phone now. Yes . Which is really hey Sam's a cheap phone that you could get for free from T Mobile if you didn't mind that it didn't have a flag in gold on it. Hey, you can buy a flag in gold and just put a decal . We I think in a way uh there has been an erosion of American character uh to a point where we just expect everything's a scam and nobody really even thinks about it anymore. It's like, well, you know, it is so bad. It is so bad that when my wife got an email from Social Security, she blew it off because she thought it was a scam. And when she got a call from Social Security. She hung up on the guy. It turned out it really was social security. Right. And as a result, it took us an extra six months before she got her benefits. Of course. So it went that way in Russia first, right? I mean that's like that's part of the Putin's story. You you uh you fled the zone and and just like leave people unwilling or able to trust each other and without the with uh without social cohesion , like the whole thing comes grinding to a halt. Right. Well, what did what did the SEC fine Elon for pumping the value of the Twitter stock, or actually dumping the value of the Twitter stock before he bought it with tweets saying it's full of bots, it's no good. Uh they they pro they prosecuted. They said, you know, you you obviously were trying to influence the value. Uh there was a class action suit uh from shareholders who said uh twitter shareholders who said yeah we we didn't get the value uh for our stock because of his tweets. What did they find him? One and a quarter million dollars. That's like me getting a parking ticket. L ess. It's literally less than you getting a parking ticket. It's it's like it's not even a slap on the wrist. It's a it's a little it's a doink on the nose. It's nothing. It's a it's just amazing. I I I'll never forget I read some research years ago that that uh studied CEOs as they climb h igher and higher up into their respective hierarchies, the uh the number of people who can say no to them uh gets smaller and smaller, and so their like sense of empathy , uh, which had served the the the socio-biological function of keeping them in check, just atrophies because they don't need it. Yeah. And now with it ever more extreme in equality, like what do they need to care about other people? They don't have to sh pretend anything. Totally it and and they I feel like once you've observed humanity and its behaviors and its choices at scale , you emerge with such a low opinion of people, you know. Like I think this is Zuckerberg's problem. I think he just looks at how we are and is like, these people suck. You know? Humans are what do I care? This is true when you talk about people in the gambling industry. They're always like people are the worst. Or bartenders. Or cops. Yeah. I was a bartender. I I still liked people after being a bartender. I might have felt differently. Sure. And Zuckerberg knows how vulnerable you are, how easy to manipulate we are, and uh takes good advantage of it. Uh uh this is always the thing that gets me is that humans are simultaneously the worst thing ever and the most amazing thing ever. That's right. And I think it's even true of Elon that once in a while we break through. And once in a while, and you yeah, once in a while there's a Michelangelo, uh, there's a Jonas Salk. Yeah. You know, uh once in a while we do. And uh and then there are plenty of counterexamples. And there's some politicians that break through as well once in a while. I agree. Yeah, I agree. So you might hate 'em, you might like them, but they break through. Right. Arguably there could be more of them , um if all the abundance were not so dramatically misallocated. Uh if anybody uh else saw this uh Scott Santon's article I just shared, uh Scott Santon's is the kind of the the leading thinker these days around UBI and he wrote what he calls the uh the the anginine de poitrine argument for UBI. If you've seen that that crazy Montreal noise band or they're like Discord . Oh they're hysterical, yes. And so he says like those guys and Albert Einstein and like j how many like if uh if UBI made it possible for even one person out there to like be able to stop messing around doing something pointless to pay the mortgage or the rent, uh, and instead became the next Einstein, like one of them would pay for the whole thing times over. Um, and presumably there would be more than one. We did uh on uh uh Friday I did a special show with a friend named Jeff Atwood, who uh is a famous uh coder, he wrote the coding horror blog, and uh made quite a bit of money when he sold Stack Exchange. He's devoting half of his uh fortune, a considerable amount, uh to uh uh some test projects for what he he doesn't like ubi because the idea of ubi is everybody gets a basic income. He likes a guaranteed minimum income. It's like a minimum wage that there is a a bottom that nobody goes below. And so he's funded uh with a considerable amount of money, uh, some projects to test this theory. Uh if you go to staygold.us you can read all about it. But uh yeah, so I'm not a fan of UBI because Elon doesn't need any more money. You don't need to give Elon a thousand dollars a month. Uh but you I I am a fan of the idea of a guaranteed minimum income. And it is possible, but unfortunately in order to do that, we would have to kind of limit the number of billionaires and how much money they had. They might only be we're able to get a few hundred million to get the bigger The New York City budget is balanced, right? Yeah. I was just watching on momdami's new uh uh Twitch stream. Isn't that hysterical? Somebody called this the uh the FDR style uh fireside chats that but he's but instead of course doing it on the radio, mom Donnie's doing it on Twitch. We're not going to think about of the politician that broke through. Yeah. He he was a he was first in mind when I said that. Yeah, very, very interesting. Yeah. And I was in New York as, they know, just yesterday. Everybody I ran into, bus drivers, people love him. I mean, he's he's delivering the goods. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh it's very interesting. So he's uh funding these programs with a tax on unoccupied multi-million dollar apartments. Is that is that where that money is coming from? Or is it I I think so. How did you pull off this budget? And he said uh basically it was one part uh yeah uh taxes on the rich and the other part um insisting that uh the budget splits with the state government like actually respect their agreements. He he claimed that there was a number of instances where the city and the state like agreed to go 50-50 on something and then historically the state would not follow through with their funding and and the mayor historically like wouldn't be able to do anything about it uh but uh he resolved that situation with the the current governor. According to uh his website, he's the first US elected official to host a recurring multi-plat form stream. It's called Talk with the People, Twitch, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, X, Blue Sky, and Podcasts . Uh it is the modern fireside chat. Yeah. I think that's very interesting. Uh the first one was last Thursday at 4 p.m. and is you know wide open and full of like That's a brave thing to do. Obscene ASCII art. Our live chat on Twitch is also open, but I but they're pretty good right now to be nice. So he got thirty five thousand uh Twitch subscribers uh after the very first That's fantastic. That's that's how all elected officials be responsible to the people who elected them, I think you compare that to Chuck Schumer and or almost any traditional politician. I mean they don't like this. I remember I remember uh many years ago I've told this story before teaching Regis Philbin on uh had a tweet and he was initially he was really excited there's video of it on uh on YouTube he was so excited he called his wife said joy joy I just sent my first tweet and they're talking back to me he loved this idea of his audience talking back to him. It lasted one week . Then he realized they were all talking to him and he didn't like it and he and he canceled the uh to cancel the account . He's in the talking business, not the listening business. Yeah, that's right. There you go. Yep. Bingo. All right, let's take a break. Uh more to come with our fabulous panel, Jacob Ward. Uh the RipCurrent. You've seen him on CNN, JacobWorb.com, and it's book The, Loop, is still well worth reading. It was it was definitely prescient when it came out in 2024 ? 2022. Two? Yeah, about a year before Chat TBT came out. You think you want to be right when you write a book like that? You don't really want to be right, unfortunately, but you were. Uh well done. Bravo. It's great to see you. And of course, uh Marshall Kirkpatrick, the author of What's Up With That? You can get that at What's Up With.app. Try it out. You can try it for free. Very interesting way to add context to any web page. Uh and it's actually it's more than just context. It's kind of um uh adversarial content too, right ? Yep. Some w one of uh my early users said no one will ever be able to fool me again. Boy if that were only true . If only that were true. Maybe. Maybe I sometimes think of it as an X as X-ray vision. Another user called it that. That's good. I like it. See through it. And uh from connectsafely.org, it's founder, CEO, and president uh Larry Maggot. ConnectSafely.org. Go there. There's all sorts of information that's very valuable for parents who I don't I boy, you got my deepest sympathy knowing how to raise kids in this day and age. I swear. We just literally this week published the seniors guide to Uber. And we were that's a great idea. Yeah, no, we do we have stuff for seniors, and we have a new task force for eighteen to twenty six year olds because they have vulnerabilities. It doesn't go away when you're eighteen. In fact it gets worse in some ways. Yeah. A lot of anxiety at that age. So it's a tough world if you're growing up into it or if you're in it and it's changing uh under your feet. Mm-hmm. It is a tough world. And boy, uh it's tough to be a senior. I you know, we're fortunate, all of us and probably all of our listeners that we understand technology, we can use it. But you gotta feel for the vast majority of people who are entering this world where technology is everything any who have no idea how to use this stuff. I don't know how anybody who has any diminished capacity, and you know, God forbid we could all be there someday, how they handle life today without the the ability to thrive online. It's just I I don't know what they're doing . There was a story about a longtime Yankee fan who'd been going to the games for sixty years, didn't have a smartphone, couldn't go to the games anymore because the tickets are on the phone. That's right. I couldn't park at UC Davis because I couldn't get a Wi-Fi signal, and the only way to pay for parking is with it with the app. And I literally had to drive somewhere else because I didn't have one W .hat are we doing, folks? Yeah. There's this thing called quarters. Right. This is this is how you know I'm an old man. I have in my car a little change thing with quarters in it just in case someday I meet a parking meter to take quarters. Someday I may. Or if you just want to add 10 minutes, you don't want to go, you know, put your credit card back in. I gotta get my credit card. Well you're not gonna try to change the settings on your toaster, are you? No. Uh it wasn't Yankees, it was Dodgers. Thank you. Eat the oligarchs, says his name. Robert Westerman, longtime Dodger fan. Finally, the Dodgers responded and gave him a paper ticket. Thank God . He's the only one in Dodger Stadium with a paper ticket. Good for you, Robert. I'm glad to hear. Or I'm sorry, Errol is his name. Errol Siegel. Glad to hear it. Our show today brought to you by the Mill. Now here, is the modern world doing something pretty darn cool. If you uh, you know, sit at the table and clear your plate. I was brought up to clear my plate, right? There are starving children in China. Clear your pl ate. But you grow up in a world where you see all this food waste and you realize I don't I shouldn't be have to clear my plate. It's not healthy. I shouldn't at a restaurant. I shouldn't have to, you know, eat everything put in front of me. Food waste is seems like a huge problem in this world. What's interesting is it isn't in restaurants. Most of it happens at h ome. But there that's good news because it means we can actually do something about it. And that's when we went out and we bought our mill food recycler. I love this thing. Mill is right now in our kitchen. We bought it uh October, I think, of last year, before they were a sponsor. And I fell in love with it so much that I said, can can we do ads for you? Because I think everybody should get one of these things. Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler. Everything goes in it. Now, I we want, you know, we were composting, but their problem is, you know, you got this thing and it starts to smell and there's fruit flies and stuff. You throw it in the same thing in the mill, potato peels, even b you know hearts to avocado pits, chicken bones, even dairy, the mill takes almost anything, and then while you sleep, our mill, I have it set up, you can change how it works, but I have it set up to turn on at 9 p.m. While you sleep, mill quietly transforms those food scraps into nutrient rich shelf stable grounds. There's no mess, there's no smells, there's no fruit flies. And we last night we loaded it up. You can put 10 pounds in it. It'll work on it overnight , reduces it down to almost anything. It can work for weeks before you even have to think about emptying it. You can use the grounds, your garden, add them to your curbside compost. A mill will even pick them up and uh get them to a small farm for you. Look at this. Since October, we have been using the mill. We have diverted four hundred six pounds of food scraps from the landfill. That's where it would have ended up. You can actually see your impact. The mill app will track how much food you're keeping out of landfills. They've already helped customers put over fifteen million pounds of food to good use. The mill is beautiful. It's sleek. It looks great in any kitchen. We got the white one. They have different colors. It offers an by the way, a ninety day risk free trial. If you don't absolutely love it, you can just send it back. It is risk free. But I have to say when you see a stat like that, you go, okay , okay, we're keeping it. I love our mill . Try mill risk-free for 90 days. Get $75 off right now when you go to mill .com slash twit and use the code TWIT. $75 off right now , mill dot com slash twit, use the offer code, twit tw , save some money, save the planet. 406 pounds diverted from landfill. That's amazing. That is that is amazing. And we, you know what, we care a lot. We do the recycling. We do everything we can to reduce and we have really reduced our waste, food waste incredibly. And the mill is a big part of that. Thank you, Mill. Leo, do you know about uh Project Drawdown? No, what's that? Uh it is the uh world's leading uh research uh quantitatively uh meta studies on the most high impact uh responses to climate change uh that that the world could take and reducing food waste is the number three out of out of a hundred different solutions here 's huge it is no kidding. It's huge. Yeah. Wow. Num number one is getting is dealing with uh errant refrigerants, uh, you know, chemicals from refrigerators. Uh if we could get that dealt with, it'd make a huge difference. Number two is uh I believe offshore wind power could like make a huge, huge difference. Uh and number three is reduced food waste. I I had no idea. That is amazing. Um Yeah, 'cause it feels help you feel helpless. You feel like, well, as an individual, what can I do? I mean, we drive EVs like you, Larry. We drive EVs. Um I am, as you're speaking, writing to their press office because I'd like to review this product. It sounds amazing. Oh, the mill isn't I love the mill.. Yeah I'd like to write I'd like my readers to know about it. It's it's great. And you know, California introduced, you're in California, right? Yeah. They introdu I pretty sure the whole state now does uh composting. So you have a compost bin at your curb. Yeah. But it is gross. It is Well we actually have two we have a worm bin in our kitchen. We have a big thing for the city compost and we have a smaller one that my wife uses for her worm bin. Now I don't know if this can go into the worm bit . Do you know what I mean? It can. Basically it's it's it it's got little mixers and it heats it up. It just removes the moisture, right? So it's like it's it's all the nutrients are still there. So it's just dry it's like grounds, like coffee gro So yeah, the worms would love it. You can put you can use it as compost. Absolutely. But there are certain things she won't let me put in the like she won't let me put uh bones in the worm bin, you know. Well the the mill handles bones there are rules though, if you're gonna use this , uh you couldn't put like marigolds in it because uh if you were gonna use it as chicken feed because it's poison it would be bad. It would be poison. So i it actually on the app it tells you, I'm not doing the ad anymore. This is just us talking. On the app, it tells you uh if you how depending on how you're going to use it, don't do this, don't put that. But we're just putting it in the compost bin and so we put everything in it. Uh and also you I guess you could put a lot more in like ours, it fills up pretty quickly.. This I think Oh yeah, this well, it fills up. It'll take this much. It's about that big. And then but the next morning it's it's down here. It compresses it, basically. No, there's no compression, it's just dehydrating it. That's all it's doing. But most of it turns out most food waste is is water. It's liquid. Yeah. So just dehydrating it. That's great. Now if you could only get people to buy less and just what you know not throw away anything would be well one of the things I have given myself permission to do is not clear my plate. Yeah. Be because that's why you're looking thinner, Leo. Yeah, I was in the clean plate club. Eat it all. Eat it. Oh, you don't like it? No. So now even when I go to a restaurant, and I will say to them, it's not that I don't like it, I'm full. Right. And by the way, I grew up worried about starving children in Europe. That shows how old I am. Oh, you're really old. It was my my parents, you know, was China for No, my parents to the to their credit never did that to me. But my mama was the saying, you should eat manja, manja, eat a more, you're gonna have some more. Is it good? And I would go, Yeah, mama, yeah, mama. Meanwhile people are starving because they've been pushed off of the land that they've been sustaining themselves on for years in order to make monocropped uh export uh for you know, controlled by by someone else. Uh well I feel guilty. I have to say, uh you know, I've been selling gadgets for twenty years, encouraging people to buy a new phone every year. I feel I I have have definitely some uh some guilt. I have written a many an apology to the world about having been a cheerleader of the internet, a cheerleader of this, a cheerleader of that, and I feel a little guilty too. Uh let's see, what else? Um the uh the US has invested two billion dollars in quantum computing. That's gonna be the next big thing. And of course they're taking a stake in it as well . Wait till they find out that the money really only goes one way. in quantum computing There is no profit in quantum computing. Uh the bulk of the money goes to IBM and Global Foundries, foundries that make wafers and other technology for quantum computing. IBM will save a billion dollars . Like they don't have the money? What Global Foundry's three hundred seventy five million. Uh IBM is going to invest the billion uh it is they're gonna take the billion from the government and invest another billion to set up a company called Anderon in Albany, New York . Um I'm not sure why the government's investing in quantum computing, I guess maybe Well Howard Lutnick, the Secretary of Commerce, says it will create thousands of high paying jobs. He also said he had never been in touch with um Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah. Well a lunch, that's all. Um Hi, this is Benito. I'm I'm guessing it's a security thing, right? Because it quantum. We just don't want the Chinese to get it first. That's all. We just don't know. But it breaks all the encryption, so they want it. Oh, you think they oh that's it. Yeah. That's right. And no password is safe again in theory. Yep. Between that and mythos, we're all gonna walk around naked from now on. Uh California is fine. General Motors twelve point seven five million dollars because GM was selling data from OnStar to uh data brokers. Uh whoops. Another slap in the wrist. Slap in the wrist. Yeah. Uh the lawsu it accused GM of sharing detailed customer information including driving habits, geolocation data, names, and contact details with third party data brokers between twenty twenty and twenty Well that sir certainly that is less surprising than the story that you covered a few weeks ago, I believe, uh, about how all of the uh or most of the state uh health insurance marketplaces uh were selling data. Oh yeah, that's a good one. Like whew. Yeah, the ACA web sites all had uh data collection tools and they were selling it to data brokers. And of course, on an ACA website, you give them a lot of information, income information, health information . And not exactly knowing that it's going to be there. So you mentioned this at the beginning of the show. I don't know if this is going to pass. It's part of the Federal Highway bill a bipartisan amendment to end police license plate tracking. They will be uh s cities and uh states will be stripped of federal funding if unless they kill their automated plate tracking programs, particularly Flock, right? Flock is the is the big one. Yeah. Uh there's been debates in every community. They're debating in in my community, in Petaluma right now, because there's cameras. And there's a lot of uh value, of course, uh in having these automated license plate readers . The problem is they're used sometimes not in such great ways. Uh we just saw a story about a law enforcement official who was using an ALPR from Flock to track his girlfriend, his ex-girlfriend. Thousands of ALPR reading from the But the city I live in has cancelled its contract with Flock and the cameras have been removed after protests.. Yeah People don't like the idea. Aaron Powell It's one of those many examples of the nuances of good ideas with unintended consequences. I deal with that every day as an internet safety person because there's all these bills out there that would do wonderful things to protect children, but take away their rights, uh spy on them, deny them access to important information that they need, yada yada yada. And and this is just one more example. I mean of course we want to cap ture kidnappers and child molesters and elderly person who's Exact. Uh and you really do you have a right to privacy when you're in public roads? Well, the problem right is that it's not just about the privacy, it's about like the the so I was talking to these two mathematicians who were doing a store a study of uh like uh cameras, speed speeding cameras, and they figured out that it was still much more likely to tag black and brown people and the simple read is, oh, because they drive faster. No. Well, yes, but not for the reasons you think. What they said, what they determine determined was black and brown people in this particular city, I can't remember it was like Detroit or one of these, are living in these post-industrial areas with huge four-lane roads. They got to drive huge distances to get to work. And that's where people were putting the speed cameras. And as a result, people in those neighborhoods, as opposed to people who, you know, live in a leafy suburban enclave where the where it's much uh you know you where you couldn't speed anyway, because you're in a compressed little road, um, they don't get hit with those speed speeding cameras. So there's a whole layer of like how do you equitably equitably deploy something like that. I have to say I'm very tied in knots about this one. Like I live in Oakland, California where there's a there has been a huge amount of like petty crime and vehicle crime, you know. And they often don't prosecute it because it's so hard to prosecute, right? And you're not allowed to chase because the police end up killing high speech. Yeah, you know. So I do have to say, like from a thousand feet up, I look down and I think, well, this this you know, maybe license plate readers is the trick here. You know, I I took a trip to Brazil this past summer and when you get off the plane, you you they barely check they you barely talk to a a human. You don't even really hand over your your I mean you you hand over your passport at one point, but like you w all you really do is walk down an incredibly long hallway and you're being recorded a thousand different ways. Your face is getting is getting biometrically grabbed, your gait, how you walk is getting grabbed, all of that is getting grabbed. And then when you bop around in a place like Rio , there's just Chinese cameras everywhere because China has exported these systems to all these big capitals and big cities. And I was talking to people um in Rio about this and and they were like you know we like that it's brought down uh crime you know they're all for that because it had a huge violent crime problem but then they were also like but there's also weird stuff happening like like cops are using the footage and monetizing it on YouTube for themselves. There's misuses. There's this Georgia police chief who's being prosecuted because he used his these ALPRs to stalk and harass people. But But we give police all sorts of powers to protect us. That's that's part of the deal. And yeah, there are some bad eggs, but that's how you yeah. Well, maybe some are, but most people are not suggesting we get rid of police. Um I am yeah, I am also twisted and nods. I feel like there's some real value to it. I think people just hate the idea of these cameras everywhereere. H's a story from uh German scientists in the Carl Institute for Technology. Ordinary Wi-Fi can now identify people with perfect accuracy . Your your Wi-Fi router can can actually not only see that you're there, but can identify you even if you're not carrying an active device by observing the uh does this in the Truman accent obser. Byving the propagation of radio waves, we can create an image of the surroundings and of persons who are present. There's an American version of this too, I've I've seen proof and you don't need a warrant to use that to park a van outside somebody's house and run that. Like no warrant required. There's a new system where they'll identify you individually by your um by your heartbeat using a laser from like two hundred yards is a switch of the water said that I thought of this is uh I'm wondering if the Brazilian uh corridor you're going down is also doing gate analysis because Yeah, uh that that was the my understanding is that the reason you're walking and not stopping in place and turning up and right. You just got me so paranoid because between my Apple Watch, my CPAP machine, which has a built in modem, it's got a cellular connection , my aura ring, I'm wearing all that stuff. And I have a little Chinese Chinese AI in here. I mean gosh. You're a one man NSA, Larry. No, we live in this world. Uh privacy is uh well and it's in so like out of the the nine identified planetary boundaries required for like life on earth to exist, there's uh like seven out of those nine have been passed now, have been crossed over. Uh you mean the Goldilocks zone kind of thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Around uh everything from uh ocean currents to uh So it's like it's pretty unsustainable situation we find ourselves in. And uh and now we don't have to worry 'cause we're just gonna be wiped out any day now. Well uh doesn't happen all at once Leo . Yeah death by old kids well you and I Leo we we probably we'll probably die of old age yeah we'll be all right. I feel bad for kids being born right about now. Set what did you say? Seven out of ten? Seven out of nine. Yeah. Have been uh have been passed. Have been breached like the two two centigrade temperature um increase. Here I'll I'll drop the link in. Uh ocean acidification is uh is now And these are some some of these are irreversible, that's the problem. And worse, um th they pile on. They become exponential quickly. Yep, feedback loops and yeah, and what have you. So given those circumstances, um and you got your your tight alignment between the the uh the super wealthy and the the government that they have you know the super wealthy with a an interest in the status quo and the uh and the and the government that then like do you want the government to have perfect surveillance? That seems like minor compared to compared to the acidification of the ocean. But it also explains why Mark Zuckerberg is building a $100 million dollar bunker under his house in Hawaii . The ri this is the funniest thing. The rich think that they somehow will escape this reality. Elon thinks we're going to Mars. We're not going to Mars. No. I hope he does. Got bad news for Elon. He's not talking about that as much anymore, I have to say. He's been pretty quiet about that lately. I don't know. I he was wearing the Occupy Mars uh shirt and I think uh he had a very successful launch of a Starship uh yesterday? Uh I don't know. Here's all right, let's give you some good news. I don't want to leave you with a depressed point of view. Remember when uh Cox Media Group, the cable company , was advertising and we talked about it. I I was skeptical of it, was advertising that that you as a as a market er could uh buy active listening technology from them, that they were tapping people's phones and had perfect marketing information from their phones, from their TVs, from their cars, and they could sell that to you, and your ads could be perfectly targeted. And I I at the time was a little skeptical. Well, it turns out uh the FTC says and now they're in trouble because they didn't actually work. The FTC is finding Cox Media Group for selling active listening technology that didn't work . If it worked, no problem. Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, is that what we're upset about? That's what we're upset about. They deceived their customers , businesses, by claiming they could target ads based on audio recordings collected from consumers' smart devices via a marketing service called active listening. Why do they get in trouble? Because the FTC said but it didn't work . So maybe this isn't the happy story that I thought that I thought it was. Well the happiness was that it didn't work. But yeah, well that's the that's what should be reassuring. And that that came out in Discovery, if you will. Yeah. Wow . Uh oh, I have lots more. There's so many more stories, but I'll tell you what, uh I think we probably should uh wrap this up because we've gone more than long enough and I don't want to What did they call Walter Crocky? Iron Butt? I'm the new Iron Butt. Yeah, you are. I could I you know what? I could easily Yeah, it's funny because I'm not the longest podcast by any means, Joe Rogan just did a three and a half hour podcast interview with Mark Andreessen. And I saw that Lex Friedman did an interview with David Hanemeyer Hanson, the creator of Ruby on Rails, that went six hours plus . So hey, we're only two hours and 44 minutes in. This is this isn't long. My back already hurts, so. All right. We'll wrap it up. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your patience. And thank you, Larry Magg ot, for surviving. ConnectSafely.org. Everybody should go there. There's lots of good stuff. I love that. How uh an elderly uh senior citizen's guide to Uber. I think that's a good idea. Cover cover cradle to grave. Cradle to grave. I've been saying this lately. It's only a matter of time before my kids come to me and ask for the car keys permanently. I don't have car keys. I just use my phone. Oh yeah, I don't have car keys. Good luck, kids. You ain't getting my car keys. You can have the key. I don't need that. Right. Good point. No, I that's why keep hoping that there will be some day self driving cars 'cause well, I guess there's always Uber . Thank you, Larry. Appreciate what you do for uh kids and seniors at connect safely.or g. And I'm sorry about CBS News Radio. No . It's a sad day. Sad day. Uh but it's always a happy day when you're here. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Uh thanks also to Marshall Kirkpatrick. Check out WhatsAppwith That dot app and WhatsApp with that.app slash hawkeye . It's the modern way to keep up with what's social saying about your company. I don't want to know. But some people need to know. Sometimes you need to know. Appreciate that. Thank you, Marshall. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me on. What is the box you're talking into? Is that a m that is the weirdest microphone You know, I I once went to the uh launch conference, I believe it was, or hey Marshall, real quick. I think uh you need to jigger the cable a little bit. It's buzzing. Jigger the cable. Oh, it's so funny looking. I like this. Is that any better now? No, it's alright. We're the show's over anyway. Go ahead. Is this the ad for VCast? Is this what that is? This is not the best ad for the beecaster. Okay, it's better now. There it is. So I I I went to this big startup event uh one time and we were like, oh, Walt Mossberg's gonna be there. Walt Mossberg's gonna be there. Oh maybe he'll come and talk to us and see our demo. And we're like, oh I don't know. And then he started coming around the table and uh and and he approached us and he he said, I've just got one question for you. What's that mic you're using? It was uh it was a snowball mic, and he was like, Okay, cool, thanks. See ya. Thanks, good. All right, see you later. Bye . Thank you, Marshall. Great to see you again. And uh thank you, Jacob Ward. You are you're hitting on all cylinders now, JacobWard.com. The book is the loop. There is the ripcurrent.com as newsletter. You'll catch them on CNN. And we're very lucky to have them every month on Tech News Weekly with Micah Sargent. You took a flyer on me when none of those things were true, Leo. So I think you're great. I uh and I'm really glad that uh CNN is uh finally seeing the light. That's great. What do you do is it just technology? Yeah, it's technology. I mean, it's amazing. Once you start wandering into that, the thing you everybody forgets is that every s I mean, as you know, every single story is a technology story now. It is absolutely so I do find myself just like on the on the wheel of death uh and it's great.. Nice Very high quality problem. I always makes me very happy when I see it. Good luck when Paramount buy that if that happens. Yeah. You know it's funny I'm watching . I'm watching people like Anderson Cooper and stuff and I really feel like they kind of feel the shadow over their shoulders and as a result they're becoming a little bit more like aggressive uh and a little bit more uh newsy. Like let's let's be good news , let's be good reporters while we can . Which is great. Mm-hmm. And maybe being acquiescent. So thank you. Instead of just rolling over and saying, please keep me, please. Uh you know what? Who knows what's gonna happen. It's a crazy world. You never know. Yeah. And that's why we do this show every week. Yeah never know. We do twit every Sunday. The elephants are aren't aren't acquiring twit, are they? Oh god, if they did I'd be thrilled. I I'll fifty million is all it would take. Phone numbers out there. Right. I'll do whatever Barry Weiss tells me to do. Just you know, come on and write a check. That's all I need. No, I'm not ready to sell out quite yet. Actually, I like doing this. I enjoy what I'm doing. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't need to sell out . Um it it makes me a little jealous when I see that, you know, podcast with a tenth of our audience selling for hundreds of millions of dollars to open AI, it's like , where did I go wrong? Oh, I didn't interview Sam Altman enough. That's the problem. That's my mistake. No, we're happy doing what we're doing. We've been doing it for twenty-one years. I'd I'd like to do for another twenty-one. I'll be sitting here . Larry, it'll be you and me talking about our shy tica. If we're lucky we'll have pain. You got that? You know how that pain up and down your side? You know that? Uh we we do this show every Sunday afternoon, two to five PM Pacific, five to eight Eastern, twenty one hundred UTC. I say that because you can watch us live. Of course if you're in the club, and I hope you are, uh, that's the best way to support independent podcasting. I don't need a big check from a millionaire. I just want some little checks from people who care about good content, independent content. Twit.tv slash club twit. Join the club. And if you're in the club, you can watch us in the club twit Discord and talk with us too. Uh after the fact. Well actually I should mention you don't have to be in the club to watch live. We also stream it on YouTube, just like Mamdani, Mayor Mamdanny, YouTube, Twitch, X, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Kick . Uh and you can chat with us in all of those to o. After the fact you can watch the show. Uh we do record it on to real to real tape and offer it in both audio and video form at the website twit.tv. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to Twit, great way to share clips with friends and family. Or you can subscribe in your favorite podcast client and get it automatically as soon as it's done. Benito Gonzalez, our esteemed technical producer, thank you. He's going to get an airplane and fly uh to the Philippines tomorrow. But he'll be joining us next Sunday from the Philippines, where it will be four in the morning. Yep sorry, Benito . Uh thanks to Kevin King who edits this show after the fact . Thanks to all of you for joining us. Thanks to our great panelists. We will see you next time, as I have said, for 21 years, and I'm gonna keep doing it until they drag me off. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next week. Another tw it. Bye-bye. Hey everybody, uh Leo Laporte here, and uh I'm gonna bug you one more time to join Club Twit. If you're not already a member, I want to encourage you to support what we do here at TWIT. You know, 25% of our operating costs comes from membership in the club. That's a huge portion and it's growing all the time. That means we can do more, we can have more fun. You get a lot of benefits, add-free versions of all the shows. You get access to the club twit discord and special programming. Like the keynotes from Apple and Google and Microsoft and others that we don't stream otherwise in public. Please join the club. If you haven't done it yet, we'd love to have you. Find out more at twit.tv slash club twit. Thank you so much.