North Korean Hackers in Tech Sector

It's time for Twitter this week in Tech. Richard Campbell is here. Harry McCracken and Christina Warren, we've got the experts in the house to talk about three of the biggest stories and one of the biggest tech weeks of all time. We've got fabled tables, SpaceX launches , and Apple's Siri, that and a whole lot more coming up on Twitter . Podcasts you love from people you trust . This is Twitter . This is Twitter. This week at tech, episode one thousand eighty eight recorded Sunday, june fourteenth, twenty twenty six , model not available . It's time for Twitter. The show will recover the weeks tech news and holy cow . It's been a long week now entering the Twitter Octagon , Christina Warren from GitHub. Hi Christina, and of course MacBrake Weekly, great to see you. Great to see you too. Long time, long time to see. Hard to believe that it was only Monday that Apple announced the new series. I was going to say, I was going to say most of that has happened since we talked on Tuesday. Actually, most things have happened since Friday is kind of nuts. It's kind of crazy. It's been nuts. Anyway, thrilled to have you. We wanted to have you on to talk about that. Harry McCracken is here my good friend, the technologizer from Fast Company . He is a historian of technology, among other things, very astute observer. And so it's always good to get that perspective. Hello, Harry, welcome back . Hi, Leo. Always a joy to be here. Happy flag day. Happy Flag Day . And also with us from Canada, because we have to have a representative from the Great White North, Mr. Richard Campbell, host of runners radio. Net Rocks, and of course he's every Wednesday on Windows Weekly . And all three of you are perfect for this week . This week you're throwing spacey stuff in, you called the right guy. I have theace SpX IPO, I have Apple's Siri . And the top story is neither of those. In any normal week , those would be the top story, but this week the top story is massive . Anthropic released on I was, I think during security now on Tuesday, it was after MacBreak Weekly . It's newest model . It is a modified mythos. That was the model you may remember. If you follow AI, all these names are familiar, but if you don't, Mythos was the model that anthropics said, It's too dangerous. We can't release it to the public. Why is it dangerous? Because it's even though it wasn't trained to do this, it's so good at finding exploits, zero days flaws in software that they were afraid bad guys would use it basically take down the internet . So and all of us. So they said what we're going to do is we're going to create this thing called Project Glasswing. We're going to release it to the fifty biggest companies, companies like Microsoft, have them fix bugs and then at some point we might release Mythos to the public . And actually Microsoft had the biggest patch Tuesday ever on Tuesday two, hundred plus fixes many of them, I think, at least a couple a dozen, zero days And they are using Mythos. So there's some indication that mythos is everything that Anthropics said it was , Anthropic has also, by the way, filed for an IPO. You got to throw that in immediate competitor open AI SpaceX and SpaceX's IPO actually happened . So anyway, Anthropic releases this . I jump on it immediately, as does everybody in the community because their previous model, Opus four point eight and well really, the vibe coding revolution began november twenty fourth, twenty twenty five when they released Opus four point five. And it was so good , so much better than anything anybody else had . It was so capable that people just went bonkers and started writing all this vibe coded software I did . It was an eye opener. It was the first experience I had of AI that actually kind of does what you want it to do . It was amazing. So anyway, they did four , five, four, six , four , seven, four, eight , and now this is five point zero, this is fable , which they say is mythos with significant safety precautions inserted. So they have, of course, the usual instructions , but they added a few other things. They added a classifier which immediately looks at the prompt you're sending it and if it has anything to do with cyber security biology because they're worried about people making bio weapons with it , they'll just refuse . And actually when they first did it , they refuse in some cases silently . So this is from june ninth. That was this five days ago . Andthropic says these topics are too dangerous to let fable five talk about Fable Five is substantially better in my experience than anything anybody's released before . I was able to do quite a bit with it when it first came out. I didn't of course, one of the things Anthony Nielsen did immediately was submit the Security Now show notes to it and it said, Nope, not going to look at it. That's cyber security . So that was the classifier designed to ban that subject . Anthropic said at the time over one thousand hours of red team testing with a bug bounty program they're paying people , external teams failed to find any universal jailbreaks for Fable . It also resisted automatic jailbreak attempts to a much larger degree than previous Claude mod els, opus models . So they said, well, our adversarial robustness is the best ever. Look at that. Look at that graph, whatever that means. I actually should point out that this is a percentage of a tax success rate . It isn't zero . It's five point four compared to an eighty three percent for Claudopus for six. So a lot of people complain. I complained . We complained because you know in public because well, you know, it's it's silently stepping down to four eight. Sometimes it says , No, I want if the classifi kicks in, it says, No, I'm not going to do that . But it also just at some points would go down to four eight. And you could kind of tell . It's like hellobotomy. I knew because it started apologizing, which was one of the giveaways with four eight was how apologetic it was . As soon as it started apologizing, I went, you're four eight now, aren't you? Oh, I was so excited. We have a sales system that was written in twenty twelve, I think , that we've been living on, but it's buggy as hell and it's basically a bunch of SQL queries. It's not very good. And I thought, well, I will give the database schema, all the code to Fable and I have it rewrite it, restructure it and we can have a modern system that does exactly what we want to. And Fable did a great job. I said analyze this first. Don't write any code. Did all that . Did a beautiful job, wrote me some questionnaires to ask the users about what they use what they don't use. It did an amazing job. Really understood it deeply . It found by the way, a number of SQL injection flaws in it , which I will not reveal it did find some security issues . So I'm not even done with the story. This is just the beginning of the story. A few days later , after much complaining, anthropic said we're changing Fable five safe guards for frontier LLM development, not to take the classifiers off, not to take the legs off, but to make them visible . We made the wrong trade off and we apologize for not getting the balance right they said . And who were they apologizing to? The researchers who without warning were being downgraded . So they said, If we downgrade you, we'll tell you now , right ? Anthropic, this is from the Wired Story, reversed the policy after it received fierce backlash from the AI research community. Oh, I missed one more missed one more thing. I said cybersecurity and bio farfare AI training They didn't want and I think this is really more aimed at Chinese companies and maybe other companies in the U. S. that are using anthropopic models for what they call dist illation to train. Now Christina, you've worked at Deep Mind. You understand all this . You're very ensconced in this even at GitHub with Copilot. My understanding of distillation and this is, I think, what Apple's doing with Gemini, we'll get to that in a few . Is you train a model, you train an LLM, but then you've got to do the post training where you adjust the weights to make it better, make it more accurate. And one of the ways to do that is to normally to go is to experts so I'm going to get a panel of twenty physicists . And I'm going to say physicists pose questions to my model . When you get the answer back, tell it where it's wrong, tell it where it's right, help it frame the answer. This is post training. And it's very, very important. Every company does it . Some companies , particularly Chinese companies, apparently, Anthropic said that one Chinese company made twenty four thousand fake accounts with Anthropic so that they could use it as the expert, not the physicist and just bounce questions. And essentially, you're sucking the brains out of opus or in this case they didn't want you to do this with Fable to create your own AI. They didn't want and now all of this is can be slanted as an honorable thing not merely to shut down competition, but they don't want somebody without the same scruples they have to create a model that could be weaponized for zero days. They want a bad guy who has his own LLM to then do a distillation attack on Fable and get Mythos . So you could say this was all reasonable and honorable That takes us to Friday it's a long week. I'm sorry. I apologize. I feel like I should tell this story and then I really want to know what you all think . But let me finish the story. So Friday, I'm working along around about five PM trying to rewrite this infrastructure. And all of a sudden it says model not available . I thought, oh, that's not good. Did I screw it up with my credits? Did I blow something ? I tried again, model not available. Can't do it. Nope. It didn't step me down, just said model not available. It said, You should try four eight Opus wants you . So then I went to Twitter and all these people are saying, model out available, what has happened ? Well , Politico had, I think, probably the best kind of breakdown of what happened . The Trump administration got a little concerned with how good Fable was . And it apparently asked its partners , hey, what do you think of this? They asked Amazon. This was on Wednesday . And And y Jassie, apparently , Trump called Andy Jassie, the CEO of Amazon, said , Is this safe? And Amazon said, Yeah, well, we've kind of we think we've jailbroken it. Which would be bad news, right? If you could jailbreak this thing, then bad guys could jailbreak it and they could use it. Apparently Pliny, the Liberator, who we've interviewed, I'm trying to get him on the show on Wednesday because we've interviewed him. He's an amazing jailbreaker. He also he said his team had also jailbroken fable. That would be very bad news . Multiple tense calls followed, according to Politico, between anthropologic CEO Dario Amode and Administration officials, including Treasury Secretary Scott Bassett, White House Cyber Director Sean Karencross . Susie Weiles, the President's Chief of Staff, was also on the phone . By Friday morning, the issue had reached the highest levels of the White House, Basset, Karen Cross, Susie Weiles, and other senior officials met to discuss the model and the administration's response. According to the administration official and a senior White House official who asked not to be named Basent joined remotely following the meeting, now this is where there's a little deviation . The administration said it tried to reach Stario Amode, but he was unavailable because he was attending a wellness , retreat . Anthropic's response to this is that's absolutely false . A person close to Anthropics said Amode was first requested Friday at noon, was on the phone with senior officials within an hour and fifteen minutes . And while he was not available for that hour and fifteen minutes anthropic offer to other senior leaders , Amode participated in three calls with half a dozen senior administration officials, including Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary is now involved , under secretary of commerce for industry and security, Jeffrey Kessler a bunch of officials. During the call, Zamode tried to clear up what he assumed was a misunderstanding . He said the bypass that occurred, I think he's talking about the Amazon one , which he believed to be very specific did not pose the same risk as a broader jail break . It was a bypass but not a jail break . So the guardrails were in place, the classifiers were still in place . In fact, in a blog post , Anthropic said no testers have yet been able to find a universal jailbreak . Karen Cross had been sent unmoved by Amode's arguments. Again, this is Politico, which had the most detailed reporting. A white House official said Amazon's findings were run past the NSA and they felt they had proof . The White House asked Anthropic to voluntarily remove the model to address the vulnerabilities. Amode asked for more time and information, made no commitment , and at one point Bassett, the Secretary of the Treasury to Amode, you're making a bad decision . Now we're back down to about five or six in the evening. The Trump administration and the Commerce Department imposed an export control on Fable five, citing national security and banning its use by foreign nationals . Unfortunately, many of the scientists at anthropic are foreign nationals . Plus, as far as I know, there is no way to ascertain your citizenship when you're using any of these models . So the company said, well , the only way we can comply is by turning it off , which they did . Anthropic said the White House gave ninety minutes to take the models down with no details on the actual threat. There was never any begging or asking for them to work with us just a declared ninety minute deadline and so that's where we stand right now . There are so many points of view on this. So I'm just curious, Christina, you're close to this. Yeah, yeah. And I know it's early yet. We know we've only we're just absorbing this. It happened Friday.. Yeah So what what are your 's your hot take on it? Your first take on it ? Well, all of this is just it's it was just such a shock and it was just so mind blowing in a lot of ways. I was pointing this out in the discord. But what is so interesting to me here is just as kind of to add to the intrigue of all of this was that the report coming from Amazon of all companies , Amazon who has invested thirteen billion dollars in anthropic has the right to invest in another twenty billion is their exclusive cloud partner or their primary cloud partner . They also, I think, can serve off of Google Cloud, but almost all of the models are served from Amazon . And I guess they have the space XIL too, but the vast majority of their cloud commitment is with Amazon. The fact that it's Andy Jassy of all people who, you know, seems to have kind of led to the chain of events of this happening . I'm very bothered by any government being able to take this sort of action. I just am, especially in the absence of what would feel like proof and especially when the company itself is disagreeing with some of the findings and the reason that this action is happening. So I think that that's very problematic. And I think that it's in some ways weirdly, bizarrely very good PR for anthropic because it's making it seem like hey their models are so powerful that the government won't even let you use them , right? But it just it seems just like such a ridiculous escalation. And I know that the reports all claim at least from the government side that this has nothing to do with the brief window in time when anthropic had failed to bow to the knee of the Department of Defense, excuse me, the Department of War . But that lasted like thirteen seconds. So wait a minute because this afternoon, Pete Hagsith posted this on X . Three months ago, Department of War kicked anthropic out of our building forever . Every passing day proves why that was the right move . Okay , you could say this is Pete's revenge. Or maybe just maybe he's a little shot and freed.. I I don' dont't know know, but that is interesting because that goes against what some of the what appeared to be administration leaks on Friday and Saturday that appeared to claim that this has nothing to do with anything else. And in fact, in fact, I think even David Sax was saying that. He was like, oh no, this has nothing to do with anything else. But if Pete Hegseth is saying that it did, then you don't know what all this means. And I think that is the thing that really bothers me most of all is that I don't know who to trust any of these scenarios about any of this, except that I probably trust the government the least and that's not a great feeling to be in. And I don't know what this means for any of us except that selfishly , we had a good thing and now we don't have access to a very expensive model anymore. Yeah, that's I have to really balance my dismay at losing it because it was really good. I mean it was really good. There were people saying it's not as good, it's not as good, but it was really good. But Richard PRPs for anthropic, right? Well, that's that's another question. Is this the best possible thing for anthropologic? Yes. Remember , they've got an IPO coming up . Yeah. I was going to say that's the other part of it too, right? In some ways not having this here is it's creating scarcity, it's making people want it even more . And if you're , you know, a bank or even a retail investor and you're like, okay, well which of the two big AI companies should I invest in? Hey, the one that had the model that was so good that it was literally pulled from use because it was deemed to be too powerful, well that sure sound ssounds like a good place to put my money, right? No downside for anthropic in this situation at all. Well, let me ask you this to be clear, anthropic chose to comply, right? So when they get ninety minutes or what, right? Like well, if the ce Commer Department says this, I mean, they've done this before, and Harry will remember this , they declared strong encryption to be a weapon . And they withheld it. By the way, that did not end well. Withhold anything, they told people to withhold it, and the companies chose to comply. Remember, Firefox stepped its encryption down from one hundred twenty eight bit to what it was thirty two bit . Basically they reduced the security of everybody using SSL . And then the problem was First Amendment allowed people to put the code on a t shirt and walk right walk right through customs into other countries in a book . So but what if okay, this is the main question I have to ask. What if fable really is that dangerous ? And what if the Chin ese could use it or hackers could use it or the Russian mob could use it to take down our infrastructure? Isn't it the right thing to do for our government to say ? Well and this battle's already big going on, right? Like the reality is the exploit the attackers are using the best models they can lay their hands on and the folks on the other side are using everything they can lay their hands on the fixed software. That's why you're seeing so many patches. Like all of that part is real . Is Fable or Mythos that much better? Like certainly the hype says so and folks are using them, but all of the Democratic administration had done this , you might say, well, they're protecting us. Right but you would also say they asked them to comply and they chose to comply rather than David Sax in his post yesterday on X, by the way, X has become the place where this is battle is going on, which is hysterical . Because you know, who else benefits from this Elon a little bit? Although maybe he doesn't because Anthropic's paying him almost a billion dollars a month for access to Grock's XAI's compute. I don't know . David Zach says that a highly credible, trusted partner of both Anthropic and the U. S. government. Amazon on this, who was testing fable came for me with the jailbreak of those guardrails. The administration asked Dario to fix the jailbreak or deeploy the model Dario refused . This is that same story Peter Hagseth was telling, right? Why would you say anything other than we'll fix it? Right. I'd feel so much better if there wasn't all this context , including Dario having this not great relationship with the government , the Pete Hagset stuff , Scott Passett and Howard Lutnik, God bless them. I don't think they're necessarily AI experts in the best position to make these judgments, even David Sachs is not an expert on this particular type of technology. So there are also Republican administrations who I would have had more confidence in to make a reasonable decision given that, yes, of course, if this thing can be jailbroken by bad guys to do terrifying things, it is not unreasonable to be extremely concerned about it . Yeah, I feel like this is the problem when you continually betray people's trust at some point when you need it, you've cried wolf a few too many times and people don't. I mean anthropic may be the single significant U. S. company that's done the least to butter up Donald Trump . I find that they could be putting their finger on this scale. I mean, I find the administration. I find that deeply admirable, but one wonders if Dario was constantly talking about how great the president was and giving money to the ballroom and attending the UFC fight, whether the dynamics of this would be quite Million Altman has been. Yes, yes. And Greg Brockman. Greg Brockman donated fifty million dollars to the MAGA campaign and Sam Altman has gone to the White House, has donated money to the inaugural what if it had been an open AI model that was comparable to what would the dynam of the situation be? How much of this though is anthropics fault by scaring the hell ahead of people ? Yeah, I mean, well, that's always been the issue, right? I mean, is that is that they talk about how great and scary and the potential these models and also how many jobs are going to go away because of all of this stuff. And it does seem a little bit like an own goal at a certain point. Like you might be right . I don't know , but it also feels in some ways like you're almost being purposely, you know, incendiary just to, you know, hype up how great your tech is. And in some ways , anthropics lost a little bit of the trust it might have had. They claim to be the number one frontier company that cares about safety. They say, oh, those open AI guys and obviously Elon don't care about safety. We care more about safety than anybody else . David Sachs says the administration values Anthropic's technical capabilities and feels that this issue, while serious could easily be resolved. It's frankly bewildering that Anthropic hasn't wanted to comply with safety requests . And coming out of anybody else's mouth, I would say, yeah , that makes sense. Coming out of that administration's mouth, I have a tough time believing anything they say. Exactly. Well, that's the problem. Modi has been pretty straightforward on most of this stuff. So I can't imagine when anybody said, can you make it safe for him saying anything other ? We're making it safer. Yeah . So what do you think is going to happen ? I think they're going to let it stay down till the IPO comes, cash in m assively on it and then see what happens next. So if you were buying stock in, you would say, Oh no, this is good for anthropic, not bad for anthropic. I think that's certainly the play why they haven't fought harder, why they're not serving litigation. Although let's see what happens on Monday. You know, this literally was Friday. I'm sure yeah, it was Friday after the news cycle ended and the markets closed. They buried as best they could. I'm not so sure if it's that great for anthropic short term, at least as long as there's a Trump administration . If you think that , well, it's two things. What, on the one hand, anthropic has the best model ever, on the other hand, they can't right. If you can't deploy it, who cares And more importantly, it's not making the money. It's only costing money. It's only a matter of time before people figure out it's not as great. And while it's down, it's always going to be great. It seems like it's great news for open AI and Google short term Open AI claims without any evidence, they have an equally good model . Now by the way, open AI could say, well, see, we didn't release our model and we never are. But we can do it . Maybe and this you know, the other people who have taken victory laps are all the AI haters . All the I shouldn't say AI haters, the doomers. The people said, see AI is going to kill us who are who are saying, okay, this clearly we've been going down the wrong path with the frontier models . These companies are doing trying to do one thing, make the smart make it AGI, make a super smart machine and that's just too dangerous to continue making . We should stop that. In fact, Anthropic even said, maybe we should pause last week. We should stop that and maybe focus on specific, you know, models for doing radiology, models for creating medicines and not try to make a single super smart model. Is that going to be the takeaway from this? It might be, right? But I think part of the problem , at least the way I interpret it is that mythos, at least the way that it was kind of portrayed was that it's one of its main features. Now this is different from Fable. I want to be very clear, but at least mythos and the partners they gave it access to was, you know, touted for its cybersecurity capabilities and for its ability to, you know, find, you know, flaws and then remediate things. And so in some ways, you could almost argue, okay, well they made a security specific model. Is that going to be an area that the government, whether it's the US government, the EU, China, anybody else is going to say, Oh, no, no, we can't have that because I don't know how tenable that is or is this going to be, you know, changing it so that yeah they try to maybe take their their larger models and try to make them into very specific tasks based things. But the big thing about, you know, the Mythos and fabled to a lesser extent was the fact that it's supposed to be able to help you find security flaws. And obviously they could do long running tasks faster and it's a very expensive model to run, which is why they were only giving people access to it as part of their subscription plans until june twenty seconds and then we're going to charge double the Opus API pricing for anybody after that and enterprise customers were already paying the API pricing . So I don't know if that's the method or not. I don' Andt know if that helpanthropic here. Unless you could make the argument that the model is going to be distilled in a completely different way, so you can't access that greater body of knowledge and it can only be used in those narrow spaces because if something was really that powerful , then couldn't somebody still just jailbreak it and find a way to use it for for negative purposes? I don't know. Here's another there's so many sides of this story , but I think a huge side of this story , Europeans are looking at this and say , this is why we have to have our own sovereign AI because if we rely on American models and a kind of unpredictable American government cuts us off . We're we're out of luck . It also Gary Marcus who hates AI I mean, there's the AI that he's involved in developing he loves . Yes, but he's very quick to hate open AI and anthropic. He says even could U. S. policy be any stupider. He points out , well, here's one example. Andre Karpathy, who's very well known in the AI community, who was testing was the first guy who tested the term biopsy coding went and got took a job at Anthropic, which everybody was kind of shocked at a few weeks ago. Well, guess what? He's not a U. S. citizen. Slovak. So he can't work on anthropic models or at least he can't work on fable eggs. You're not sure why only U. S. citizens units make anybody safer. Like let's Aren't there bad people in the US as well ? Absolutely . And what Marcus says is now if you're a Chinese scientist or any foreign national scientist working at Athropic or any U. S. AI company, you're immediately going to get your passport out and go back home and work on AI there . So this may also be very damaging to Americ an AI development . Now, Reid Albergati at Semaphore says his sources tell them this was a fear of China getting a hold of Fable . Makes sense. That's a perfectly valid thing to be worried about. Yeah. Yeah, but I wouldn't be worried about them using it, getting it through the flippin' API . Right. There's already guaranteed to be Chinese spies working inside the Tropic right now. That's what they do. Right. The chances there' thats a copy of that in China already are pretty damn high . And if you were that worried about it, you might also be worried about China getting access to chips, which the government is not seem concerned about that because they had the government haven't stopped that embargo. They said, Hey, have all the chips you want. So it's the other problem with our administration right now is they're very inconsistent on this. The first thing President Trump did when he got in office was reverse Biden's AI regulations, saying no regulations. We want to be the best. And the best way to be the best and this is Republican theology and always has been, is not is to deregulate and let the market bloom. Well, now all of a sudden , they're completely reversing that . And you know, next week, they may reverse themselves again. It's entirely possible. This will last only a few days . Trump may have single handedly killed the American AI . It's so very confusing. So I don't know what to think of it. And I am trying not to let my own peak involved get involved because I am, I'm a little miffed. I was really enjoying Fable. It was it was expensive as hell . I so we have We had if you have a Cloud Max subscription , you could use it unlimited until june twenty second. And then at that point Anthropic said, then you're going to have to pay tokens. There's no unlimited sub for fable. So I had ten days . This was gonna be my glory. I was gonna stay up all night for ten days fable to the max until I was told no more , but no, I guess I don't get to. Oddly enough, I was writing about Siri, so instead of using the best frontier model, I was perfectly happy to have Siri do stuff that was not all that incredible, but which I could finally do. So I am conflicted because I think there it could well be that Fable was dangerous and it's the right thing to do to do something to keep it out of the hands of bad guys . But why are we letting any government institution that doesn't have anybody who is an expert in these areas make these decisions based on a simple report from one executive make make like even if we take the presupposition that it was dangerous , can we just agree that the way that this happened and the lack of any sort of notice and just the order to shut it down so quickly , especially when it's not as if the government didn't have access to the previous model for several weeks, you know, for since since April, I guess when it came out , that this is that's not the way that any of this should work, no matter how you feel about anything else. It shouldn't be something where a government official basically says based on whatever little information we have, we're going to make a company take something out just because we say so . I should point out David Sachs is also not a U. S. citizen. He's a South African . So he wouldn't be able to work on men us either. And as far as getting anthropic out of the military or out of the U. S. government in general , it's not out. Oh, they love it. Yeah. They want it . And they want it even more now that might be the other thing. Maybe that maybe the upshot of this is, oh, nobody can use fable except us . Right . That scares me too. No, it does. And you do have to wonder like how much of it is about that saying, No, actually we just want you to make this so that the NSA and the Department of Defense and everybody else can have access to it, but no one else. And yeah, that and that does feel gross. Yeah. European politicians say this is a wake up call . The effect of this order is a reality check . Here's Here's Alistair Carnes , who is a British member of Parliament and former minister for the Armed Forces. He says this week the most advanced AI model on the planet got switched off by a foreign government, remember he's British. British researchers were studying it, British companies were testing it, British hospitals were piling it, not anymore . This isn't an AI story. It's a story of every industry we used to lead . So this is a call for, you know, every other country in the world to say, well , what this is the other question, maybe Christina, you have some insight into this . Why is anthropomics ahead of the game here? Are they ahead of the game? Is deep ? Does Deep Mind have something similar? I don't know something similar. I mean, I'm sure that they would all claim that they do. And I think it all just depends on kind of what you're focusing on and where your capabilities are going , right? And that's the thing. Like Anthropic, I think has been fairly narrowly focused in a sense on work that has been used by enterprises. And that turns out to be the most profitable area for AI use at least so far, right? And so if you're really good at coding, if you're really good at that sort of thing, then you can be really successful. And I think there's no doubt that they're the best at that right now, although I think the open AI models have got ten really good at that too, whereas I think Google is really good in certain research capabilities, obviously really good at image and video generation . And so I don't know , I can't really honestly tell you if they are so much better than everybody else, but it certainly they have, it almost doesn't matter if they're better or not. That is the brand that they have, right? They have that kind of Coca Cola kind of brand about them. And so which means that if you're going to overtake that you've got to be much, much better than those capabilities for people to kind of win that over. So I don't know, but I don't know at this point if I, were one of the other major labs, if I'm getting you see the sort of heat that anthropic is getting from the government, is this even the sort of area that you want to invest your time in, at least in this administration? Or do you want to focus your research efforts otherwise? I don't know. Ethropic has not said how big Fable is. You know, I think Opus was roughly one point two billion parameters. People are guessing that Fable, one of the reasons Fable is so good and so smart is it's six billion . I'm sorry, six trillion parameters. Is that right? Wait a minute. Is it billion or trillion? It's big. It's really big. It's so big . It'd have to be trillion, then. It's got to be trillion. Yeah. By being that big, yeah, because I have one hundred twenty billion models running on my framework. By being that big, maybe that's how it's so smart. It's just huge . And if that's the case, well, anybody could do it. What's interesting about this is and this is one of the things that didn't get a lot of buzz when the model came out, but certainly was a concern I know, for some businesses and enterprises was that as part of one of the safety parameters when it was available was that anthropic had a data retention policy for up to thirty days on every query that was put on. Oh yeah, it wasn't that interesting. And that I think raises some interesting questions, which at least for me was, okay, you're doing this and everybody who's going to use your model has to kind of then suck it up and say, Well, if we're going to use it, we have to accept these term s and trust that anthropic will delete the data, but they could have held on to some of it for seven years . That obviously creates if you're certain types of businesses and work in regulated industries creates very big problems because that's not how the previous models have worked . And then you have to wonder like, okay, is this going to be the sort of policy that they're going to require going for ward for they claim it would only be for Mithos class models and it wouldn't extend below that. But who's to say they could change that at any time ? To me, and I'm sure that this has nothing to do with any of the decisions the government makes, but that in some ways is even more of kind of a red flag to me is kind of a risk assessment of this model's safety. It's like, okay, not only are you claiming that this model could potentially be really dangerous, but you're also keeping a record of every query that anybody who uses the model has on your machines , which then just says, okay, well, that really puts a big onus and we sure hope anthropics servers are super safe, right ? So I don't know. Cry . Anthropic who accidentally leaked cloud code not all that long ago. Oh, that's right. Right, right, exactly, right? And so, you have just all kinds of data ownership questions. And I think if you, especially if you're a foreign entity is you're having to think about those things too, which I don't think it's wrong for governments in the EU and the UK to say we have to think about sovereignty of models . But I don't know how you do that to be completely honest with you unless it just becomes down to national lines, right ? Or we go into somehow some sort of really terrible future, which sounds utterly dystopian, which would be, you know, like state, you know, approved and state sanctioned models. Like that sounds awful as well and goes against everything that we've had in computing for the last fifty years. The truth is though, we're in a situation we've never been in before. That's true . There's nothing to compare this to that I can think of . It's as if a private company had invented the atom bomb . Right I mean, we have had times when industries have stumbled onto products and looking more in the chemical space that were that dangerous , it just wouldn't make front line news. Right. And the government would assert its right to well take it over. What they do is they'd have a conversation about it. Right. Typically, you know, be sane about how you have that conversation to say we should be treating these things carefully and get results. We just haven't seen much from this administration and let's say subtlety of conversation . Yeah . All right, well, I think we did the subject justice. I don't think we came to any resolutions. It's kind of come down to who do you trust at this point ? It's like most people are clear on who they don't trust. Yeah . I'm not sure I trust Anthropic in this either, to be honest. Yeah, I'd also rather not trust a privately held company to do the right thing. Right. Yeah. They are in the business of making money, although no AI companies make money. So that's not actually an issue, right? All right, well take a little break. This is Twitter. We're talking about the Week's tech news, and we haven't even really covered anything but Friday, but we'll get to the rest of the week. It was a very, very, very big week, and that's why Christina Warren is here, a host at MacBreak Weekly. She's a senior dev advocate at GitHub and always welcome on our microphones. It's great to have you. Thank you, Christina. The technologizer also Harry McCracken. He writes for Fast Company and other prestigious journals and is always welcome here as well. Richard Campbell, you know from WindowsWeekly. net rocks run his radio and also an expert on all of us. In fact, you're at a space exper t, so we're going to go to the SpaceXIPO next and I would love to get you take a lot to talk about on all of that . Elon Musk, a trillionaire . But first a word from our sponsor this week in tech is brought to you by Meeter, the company building better networks. 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The biggest initial public offering in history And you know, Elon was taking a victory lap of course, happy man . So by the way , Elon has on paper now wealth than the economies of major nations like Ireland, Sweden, even his home country of South Africa. In fact, only twenty countries in the world have economies larger than one point one trillion dollars twenty four year old company, you know? But you know, for fresh startup, I So look , you know, I know you love space. I went to the Kennedy Space Center with you and we got a great tour. I love the idea of space , but SpaceX well it has one as far as I know, only one profitable division and that's Starlink and it makes, you know, it doesn't matter SpaceX makes is a what eighty percent of lift . So they if you have a choice of payload where you want to fly your thing into space with, you pick Falcon nine every time. Do they make money? They do, but not the kind of money that leads to a trillion dollar valuation . But then neither does Starlink. Like you read the IPO and the TAM , it's not about Starlink or NASA LIFT or anything. It's only about AI. The combined offering of everything else was several hundred billion dollars. It was twenty six trillion dollars for the AI offering. So interesting. So it's not about space either. I mean, I could see people saying, Oh, well we're going to Mars and we're going to harvest asteroids. All of those things are impaired by going public. Elon was pretty clear that SpaceX was never going to be a public company because his goal was to build cities on Mars. And that's not something that shareholders want . Ah . So data centers in space ? That's the new invention. That's what you just gave a talk on that. I have several times already, and just doing the numbers on it and saying , this is not wildly practical . You know, they really the idea is there's infinite sun. Power is not an issue. Quite finite. It's thirteen hundred and sixty eight watts per square meter so and you can only look like about thirty five percent of that at a time. So you're going to need extremely large solar rays, which are heavy and expensive . But the bigger issue here is cooling. Cooling is very diffic ult in space because it's in a vacuum . You know, we talk about space as cold on movies, but in reality , it takes more weight to cool something down than it does to collect electricity. So this same you do radiant cooling of some kind which is difficult. Yeah. So if you look at the International Space Station, which coincidentally runs on about one hundred forty kilowatts of electricity , which is about the same amount of power as a single NVL seventy two rack. It's very convenient . The mass of the cooling system for that is twice the mass of the solar requirements . So it's a lot of weight in heat in heat management and a lot of weight in electricity. There's also the issue of speed, your latency . Latency. Because right now, one of the biggest things with data centers, land based data centers is the interconnects, the speed which computers inside the data center can talk to each other and with other data centers. You don't buy one NVL seventy two, right? The Microsoft bought four thousand six hundred of them and gang them together with eight hundred gigabit infiniband connections. Right. Now SpaceX has developed a one hundred gigabit micro laser relay, which is really fast. Like it's faster than just about anything space to space . But you can't get away from the latency even going between points in orbit. You know, the big thing about Infiniband is it's sub mill isecond latency . That's why we use those connections because you need that kind of thing. But at the same time, you would not use the space based for building models because they the nice thing about an NVL seventy two is that will run a Trungian parameter model. So you can do queries against it. It's just a question of how many of them you can reasonably launch. So part of the thing I did in my research for the talk was , well, how many satellites can we physically put in the low earth orbit so that we have relatively low latency to communicate with them ? So this company generates about eighteen billion dollars in revenue . Eleven billion dollars of the eighteen is Starlink . It loses money on space launches, six hundred fifty seven million dollars. Starlink is doing so much development. But that will presumably turn around and be profitable. But that's all government money, isn't it? It's for the most part, well governments around the world and commercial spaceflight. Professional spaceflights relatively flying. I would have pointed out this before space Xed start lifting commercial payloads , there was maybe three thousand satellites in operation . Today there's four thousand five hundred not counting any Starlink satellites. Like there's ninety five hundred Starlink satellites, so Elong operates more satellites than the rest of the world combined by double and is also planning to finish out the network this year to twelve thousand satellites . At that point, those are five year lifespans satellites, so he's going to lose twenty four hundred a year, replace them with Falcon nine if you replace them with Falcon nine, one hundred launches a year. He can do that . But it also, you know , he IPO at the point at which he already dominated the market and he completed Starlink . So he needs another product to justify this. I mean, one would argue you need another product to justify Starship as a whole . You know, we don't have a need we've not demonstrated the need for hundred ton payloads until you get it doing things like flying to Mars . So this is just you're being very speculative here, which is why he originally said, I wouldn't IPO this. But it really begs the question why did he IPO it actually ? Because he didn't he only raised seventy five billion dollars. Like that's a lot of money, but it's not a catastrophic amount of money. Not that I think he could have raised a whole lot more. There's only so much money out there to acquire . I think this has more to do with fixing his own personal finances than anything to benefit SpaceX or AI or anything . He's a billionaire. He lives off loans against his publicly traded company and that's Tesla . And Tesla no longer dominates in EV's. I mean, they make a very good car, but so do a bunch of other companies . So that valuation for Tesla can't continue . And if his that price falls to his strike price for his loans, he's got big problems . So do a record IPO by whatever means possible and get those loans moved and you're in fine shape, then you can let Tesla's price fall so you can acquire it into your big beast. So there's a lot of risks. And we didn't even mention one big risk factor, which is Mr. Musk himself , he has for every share he has, he's got ten times the votes of every other share . So he will always have absolute control over this company. I was really , but that's true of all of the tech giants, right? They for the most part structured all of their ownership plans so that he's got a better deal than Mark Zuckerberg, which is saying a lot. Yeah. And one would argue, you know, there's a great conversation to be had here when you have a functioning government at the idea of what if you have a public trad ed company, can't the shareholders have a say? That's kind of the point . Apparently not . In this case , but I think when people bought Tesla stock, they made a lot of money on it . They bought it because of Elon . Yeah . And I suspect that a lot of people who want to buy SpaceX stock are buying it because of Elon They believe Tesla never did marketing. It was all Elon. Hard. Kind of a E differentlon back in the glory days of Tesla than the Elon we have now. I like the guy who flew his sports car into space. That was a fun guy. I don't know who this guy is anymore. , I don't believe in there. Did something happen to you or has he always gone this way or no, I think lots of things happened. He's different. He's different . Well, and also Todge came along , and which is still the thing I think of immediately when I think about this guy is stuff like cutting US aid and the really tremendously negative impact on the world that he created for no particular reason . Well , one of the things he did during Doge was get rid of all of the investigations into his various enterprises. There was a time when I think Elon Musk's impact in the world was pretty clearly significantly positive when I think that was a very long time ago . Yeah . Yeah, while he's trying to cut government spending, he's getting thirty eight billion dollars in government subsidies for his companies. I think that's the other risk factor is a lot of what keeps all of his companies running is government subsidy. Now XAI, you said that it's an investment in AI because he merged SpaceX with XAI , but XAI is not exactly rolling in the rolling No wasn't terribly successful at all. You have this excess computing capacity they can sell to other folks . Yeah, instead of putting it towards their own models, they decided and also interrupted. I mean, when people talk about frontier models, does XAI even come up anymore? I don't think so. No not really. Yeah. No at least they got acquired by Twitter , right? Now acquired into SpaceX. Like that's typically the way you hide a company that's failing as you package it into something bigger. Which is really striking given that it seems like at least once upon a time XAI hired a lot of extremely credible AI people, but the results have been pretty short. I was going to stay , the people who stayed made a lot of money. I think I heard that there were something like fourteen hundred millionaires minted by this IPO and there were a good number, several dozen centim aires minted by this IPO . So the people who stuck around got their reward . Maybe . I mean, I think you could probably argue that any of the people who actually were in a position of making a lot of money at least from the XAI side could have made a lot of money at Meta or at OpenAI or Anthropic, or at Google or at Microsoft or anywhere else, right? Like it's great for them that they got an exit, but I don't know if that really says anything . And a lot of the talent is left too. Are the people who bought all of this stock and and you know, the raised the bump to nineteen percent? Are they suckers or are they making a good investment? Well, they're not going to have a say in what happens with an investment. That's not we know for sure. Yeah . Yeah . I mean, look, the banks did incredibly well. Yeah, of course that's always the case . Well, no, but I mean that's the thing though is that to me says okay, who is this really for? And this is for the banks and this is for Elon Musk. And so I think that if you are just a regular standard investor, you are your concern s and whatever your return is no one's priority at all because the people who did have priorities around this already got what they needed to get out of it. Yeah . And of course as, fast Company points out , you may not have a choice whether you invest in SpaceX because if you're invested in index funds, if you're invested in NASDAQ, you're you're invested in SpaceX. I presume I now own some SpaceX . Yeah. Reflected in my mutual funds I don't pay attention to . Uh, yeah , very interesting. Okay, well, it's one of it's a great story because it's such a big number such big numbers. I'm not going to not give it away the ending on this, but once I was doing the numbers on how many satellites you actually need and what those costs are going to look like . I backed up into space based power . Data centers don't actually have to be evil. It's just that the companies the way the companies are building them right now are, there's no reason for them to be built in cities. They can be built away from people. The latency online is minor . The trick is the electricity part. And what the kind of payloads you're talking about for the number of satellites Elon's talk about, by the way, there's not going to be millions of satellites, like there's just nowhere to put them . But you could build, you know, the I went and re looked up the latest from the British Astronomical Society's research, you know, analysts on space based power. And we're now talking about three thousand two hundred metric tons for a gigawatt of solar and the rectanus to beam it to the surface . Like you could do a really good thing with this. Like you want to you want a useful payload for Starship . That would be maybe fifty sixty Starship flights to build out a gigaw att of power and space that could be beamed to the surface with no emissions . The receiver would be about four kilometers across . It's not dense enough that it would fry airplanes or birds in flight. You'd probably put a fence around the receiver because you don't want to be walking around in there . But you know, you don't have to put the data centers up there. You just have to build data centers in a way that doesn't harm people. Like there's simpler ways to do this. They're wrong with data centers , just doing dumb things with them . Right . All right, we're going to take a little break, come back . There's SpaceX and Fable down. Now we got to talk about seri, seriously. Oh, don't say that out loud because that'll trigger a bunch of them . You're watching this week in tech. It has been a week . We're glad you're here. Christina and Richard and of course the technolog y, Harry, it's great to have all three of you. Our show today brought to you by threat locker . We're going to black hat, Richard . Are you excited about that? We're going to Vegas to be windowskly from We thee Threat Locker Booth. Well, we had a great time doing that in Orlando a few months ago. Have you ever been to Black Hat? I have, but years ago. I've never been, I've always wanted to go. So when Threat Locker said, Hey, would you want to do security now and Windows Weekly in our booth? I said, Yes , as long as Richard and Paul and Steve are going to come and they are. So that's going to be a lot of fun. We're working on the details and now that's august fourth, fifth and sixth, I think, we're going to be doing the shows on the fifth . 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Apple, as expected , it was all about AI in the WWDC keynote. Wasn't that true two years ago? Oh yeah. Yes, it is. And Apple learned a lesson . They end up paying a quarter of a billion dollar settlement . A class action suit brought against them for false advertising two years ago, saying their AI could do things it couldn't do. So I think we knew going in that Apple would be very careful not to announce anything they couldn't do. Christine, have you or anybody played with the betas yet or not? I still have not. I still have not. I need to find a device that I can put it on, but I don't think I the problem is and we talked about this a little bit on Mac Rake Weekly , at least I think that the only devices that I have that will run maybe everything will run the new series , but at least it has run the latest Apple intelligence like on device model is my iPhone seventeen Pro Max and I'm not going to put the beta on that. Yeah. Either. I mean, not until but I tell you what , the minute they do the public beta, I'm going to be very tempted . The developer beta is a little unstable, although Mike Sargent has been using it. Much funny M,ark German put it on his phone , but he said , you know, you have to then say I want to get in prove the weight loss. Yeah. Yeah. I threw a caution to the wind. Even earlier today, I usually do. I put it on my phone and my working iPad Pro. Yay . Two devices. Yes, normally I wait maybe for the second or third developer beta, but this time I went for it. Any showstoppers or did it work? It's actually pretty stable. Sometimes one of the problems with betas is they're slower, but given that one of the big other things other than AI in this version is that they try to optimize their operating systems. It even feels like my iPad is a little snappier now I have not had any problems so serious that I regret having installed them so far. So the real question is this new Siri. Now if I think it's pretty clear if Apple does everything that they've promised , and I fully expect them to because of that lawsuit. They don't want to do that again . It will become the primary way the most people, normal people use AI, right? This is what their experience of AI is going to end up being, I think. I'll be curious to see. I mean, I still feel like if you're currently paying for another model , I don't see this series equaling that experience. And it's Apple, so it's really locked down. And as far as I could tell, it will not give you an image of any real person , including Cleopatra or Lincoln or anybody else from history . I saw an interview with Jos where he talked about how they're not trying to be your AI girlfriend . It really is even more than most AI afraid of taking stances or anything even a little touchy. But that after that experience two years ago, they seem to have done an extremely good job of shipping something that is actually capable of doing the things they said or could. It's very easy to jump into because it's integrated into the operating system . It has access to calendar, email, and even things like voicemail . So right out of the box, it can do stuff which maybe in some cases you can get other AIs to do, but not and not always so easily . A German said on Sunday in his Power On Newsletter that Apple's new series is just good enough to eat I think one of these big dickovers how get rid of this. Just good enough to ease its AI crisis . He's, I guess, been able to play with it that I mean a billion people use chat GPT according to open AI. So maybe it isn't going to be the primary interface for AI for people. I don't know. I think it's like sorry, go ahead, Christina. No, I wanna hear what you have to say. Only I said this in chat. I think it'll just depend on how integrated it is with actual Apple features and this type of edentic work that it can do on your iPhone that you might not be able to do with Chat GBT or Gemini or Claude. But I think like you said earlier, Harry, if you're already paying for one of those services and you have that experience in your web browser and other places, I don't know if this is going to become like the central hub for all of that. I think that there's more progress and is reflected in the features that work right now because they still had this ancient infrastructure for Seri that as we learned two years ago is not really up to doing modern stuff and they did rip that out . They worked with Google to put some Gemini special sauce in there . And it just seems like it's a much better platform now, not just for the stuff that they shipped, but also the future . I mean, there's nothing particularly agenda. There's nothing to match Spark , which is Google's new AI agent , but it seems way more likely that they'll be able to ship agendic stuff next year than they would have been if they were still stuck with the old Siri The advantage is well they're twofold. One is they have access to everything in your phone . So they have a lot of information . They showed inter facing email with messages and so forth. And they've also set it up with app intents that developers can add Apple intelligence to their apps and I imagine developers will be strongly incentive to do that, which means Apple have even more information. So that's advantage number one . Advantage number two, I think people trust them. People think it's private. Apple's certainly emphasizing the private . They made a great case for being private and they don't have to monetize this through advertising whereas OpenAI does. Google and open AI have already done a lot of stuff with monetizing at Even Anthropic at some point after doing the Super Bowl ads, pointing out they don't have ads in their free version. I think probably can't hold to that forever , whereas Apple might be able to, although of course there's lots of evidence of Apple adding advertising to stuff where it probably didn't really need it at some point . Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say Apple, Apple definitely I think advertising I've always thought this about Apple. Apple would do a lot more advertis ing if it had the infrastructure and the capabilities to do it, right? Like I think that it's always to me I've read it as a little bit of a cope. Like oh no we don't do advertising. It's like well yeah because you didn't have a search engine. They tried to and it failed. They did. And it failed exactly, right? And so you can similar to some of their, you know, earlier like, I think on device , you know, stuff they were really hyping about how good their on device models were. It was like, well, you didn't have a cloud based model that you could use . So you had to, you know, hype the on device stuff. I don't know . But it certainly works and it's an effective strategy, whether it's, you know, for whatever reasons the narrative exists. It does feel good to use this thing and know that they're not attempting to build a profile of me and really the stuff that goes up there even they can't access and they do not preserve it . Every other chatbot you use saves memories about you unless you explicitly turn that off and sends those messages and memories back to the home office where they are presumably , who knows what, training on it, maybe using it for ads or maybe intend down the road to use it for ads. And Apple's been pretty clear they don't want to do that . So good. How ever, guys are they're actually going to go to public beta by July. Like that seems awfully fast for a product that's been a struggle . They have they did say they were very clear available in beta this fall So it's not gonna be the usual they did. I believe I believe they I believe they said at the keynote that they are going to ship a public beta next month. Yeah. Oh, the public beta, but they're talking about the release version of it. It will still be a beta version in September. Oh yeah, and also as you mentioned, Leo, the you can get the developer beta and then you also have to get on the waitlist for Siri. So and there's some evidence that it's going to be a challenge even now for them to serve up enough Siri AI to serve everybody who would like to use it and this is of interest to me as an AI user because I think this is how a lot of people will form their opinion of AI . And you know, I think people think Siri's an idiot. Yeah, they're not wrong . Siri's not been the best spokesmodel for what an intelligent machine can be . So I'm hoping Apple does this right because that is how a lot of people are going to Siri actually get worse or did we all our expectations got worse? Go up. Yeah. I don't know what Apple has done, but none of his Siri gotten worse , but things like its text prediction have gotten worse . Like an image , the image playground is God awful and Jemoji is awful. So everything Apple's done up to now has really ched the reputation do for a reset. The summaries of notifications, the summaries are a joke, right? Awful. I mean, even when they had to fix it, right? Because they were like, okay , we won't be able to summarize notifications from news organizations because we will make it appear that terrible things have happened, that actually different terrible things happened, right? So yeah, the BBC got mad because people were getting the impression that BBC was misreporting the news. No, it was just Apple AI misreporting the BBC . Yeah. So the AI version of Siri was better . I think so, but you're right, it might just be rose colored glasses. Well, our expectations have changed because these new tools have appeared. Well, I was going to say it's probably a mixture of both, right? I think in some ways it did I think something's God demonstraably worth predictive text and things like that. Many people have been able to see like a downgrade and things that used to work a certain way don't anymore. And then I think the other thing is exactly what you said, Richard, our expectations have changed because the world around us caught up and got better . And even if Syria had just remained stagnant and hadn't gotten worse, that's still worse when you're talking about fifteen years into , you know , a chat assistant that has never achieved the visions for it were. And I remember when Siri was an app that was developed at SRI that Apple acquired a few months after it came out. And it's never lived up to what the original founders ideas were . And we've gotten a lot closer , especially in the last four years thanks to Chat GBT and other, you know, this wave of generative AI than certainly anything that Sirius offered. So if the best thing we can say is, well, it's it's good enough, that is actually a perverse way, like a really big compliment. Yeah. I'm also thinking back that just before Chat GBT hit the storm big, we had Amazon talking about their I'm avoiding saying the name, but you know, the A was a failure. And even Google's home products that came out as basically a failure. Like we were having all these voice products basically go, yeah, it didn't work out the way we want to. We're going to defund it and move on and da da da da da da. And then Chat GPT landed.. Yeah Yeah. And people use perplexity a lot. I noticed on the Apple platform. They chat with it, they ask questions in the same way they would ask Siri, but that's the origins of Siri too, right? Siri was originally a third party app on the app store they pass around. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's what it was. And they even had an API at the time where it could plug into third party apps and they could, you know, do things before you or at least, you know, kind of pull up questions and a lot of the ideas were very ahead of their time and obviously never came into fruition . But yeah, and it's interesting it is interesting to look at where we were with voice assistance a decade ago and then where we are now. And what has been interesting and I talked to a number of people when I was at deep mind about this who had worked on Google Home and then went on to working on the various gemini voice projects that were kind of taking on the future of that , but now the technology and the kind of way of working with things had caught up to actually deliver what some of those, you know, ideas were in a pre transformer world . Having an AI assistant back then turned out actually to be a liability in that APT era because Microsoft gave up on Cortana. Yeah. It was much easier to start from scratch than to try to re engineer something that had been built ten or fifteen years earlier. Yeah. Yeah . So I also really like this whole two hundred fifty million dollars thing. Like I like the idea that if a big company does a Fomo kind of smoke and mirrors demo, it should cost them. It should pay. They have to pay. Yeah, that was misrepresenting what they could do. And I look at it. It forces them to be more honest now this time around . Now there's legal precedent in that place so that's a warning to all these other big companies. Do not smoke and mirrors us. We will make you pay. It was so obvious that WWDC that they had been thinking about that because the video keynote was a little stripped down and if Siri had to pause and think you saw that . And then afterwards, there were a bunch of journalist briefings where they did even more of these live demos. And then normally if you're a journalist and you use the developer beta , Apple asks you not to actually do a review this year this year they didn't try to impose that. I think you were at the event. Yes, yes. I was there last month. So when you're getting the demos , you weren't allowed to touch the phone though, right? The Apple people I don't think so, but not a huge issue because shortly thereafter I was got off the waitlist and was able to do my own demos on my own device. One of the things Apple spent a lot of energy kind of trying to debunk was that this is Gemini . We know that Apple's paying Google a billion dollars a year to somehow use Gemini, but I think there was a lot of hand waving about exactly how they're using it. Harry, did you get any information about that? Were they able to explain how they're using Gemini? Yeah, after the pre recorded keynote. Craig Fiterigi led a tech talk . It was a live presentation. I saw Mike Rockwell was in there. Mike Rockwell was there and they showed kind of a chart of how normal chatbots work. Back off your mic a little bit, it's popping still. And then they said, We're not doing any of that. And I mean to hear Apple explain it . First of all, this is not like a white labeled version of the Gemini . It has nothing to do with Gemini the app. It's Gemini the LLM. And it's not just that they're sending everything to Gemini, the LLM. It's an ingredient, but they have their Apple foundation models as well . And really I think if you use this thing , nothing about it seems oddly familiar in the way that you would expect if they were really leaning on Gemini. Although I have to say the image playground look a little bit like what I would expect from Nano Banana? Absolutely. Maybe so, although a more lockdown version of Nanobana? Yeah, because you can't use Cleopatra , which is bizarre. Apple was at great pains to say, No, no, we have our own AF M Apple foundation models and that's what you'll be using. There's a small three billion parameter model that runs on device . There's a more advanced one, twenty billion parameter model that also runs on device and MOE model. And then if you need more, they'll go out to servers, some of which are on Apple's Prem, but it looks like , you know, the deal was really with NVIDIA and Google. Yes, I could talk about that. And that's also kind of additional evidence. This is not just white labeled generally now you're on the wrong mic or something happened. Yeah, that was just briefly. Okay , you're back now . I installed a new microphone, which might have been a microphone. Now I understand. Yeah, there you go. They where were we? Well, so there's these three models. There's a local model , there's a little more powerful local model. And then they said it sounded like we're going to run on Google's cloud with Nvidia CPU s. Yeah. Google's Gemini runs on Google 's TPUs . A lot of the stuff is running on Google Cloud, but it's running on Google Cloud on NVIDS. So it's which is weird. And it's Apple private still. Right. Apple's private clou d compute. So this is not being intermingled with Google's Gemini AI at all. Why would not use the TPUs if you're running on Google Servers? Did they address that? Being Apple, they'll probably not explain why they're not doing that specifically, but they did call that out and it is more evidence that this is a unique thing That model is AFM three Cloud Pro maybe because it was built to run on C UTA with NVIDIA GPUs, I don't know. I'm not sure. Also, I mean their relationship with Google for this is only a few months old now . So there may have been a limit to how much they could go all in on Google even if they had wanted to, so so quickly. They really didn't want you to think you're running Gemini or running out of a Google model again. It was confusing because Google uses the Gemini brand for anything relating to AI. It's a model, it's an app, it's the stuff built into Google Docs and Gmail and so forth. And the only aspect of that that Apple is touching as far as we can tell is the LLM And just to prove that Nano Banana does allow you to do images of Cleopatra, Christina made this. Yeah, I asked her to make a manga style Cleopatra. Oh, I was wondering why I was speaking Japan ese. Okay. Yeah, because I could ask you. And so I just wanted to see what it would do. You got no pushback. There are some filters in Gemini in terms of, you know, certain public figures and whatnot, but yeah, it seems like Apple has locked down from what Harry is saying, the instructions far more deeply, which on the one hand, I do understand why they do that and that's probably a good thing for Apple's overall brand. On the other hand , that is the sort of thing that will continue, I think, to keep people paying twenty dollars a month to Google or to Chat GBT who have image models because if you run into those sorts of problems where you're being to I can't do this more than a handful of times , then you're not going to use the tool even if it's the default . So what they said in this kind of separate little talk is that the four models made to run an Apple Silicon are quote trained using propriet ary data with reinforcement learning and refined using outputs from Gemini frontier models , which sounds like double talk. Do you think they're distilling Gemini is people that theorize that might be the case. So they're using to me. Gemini for post training to make their models smarter . And what happens with that is it gets more like Gemini , but not but then you can say credibly, well it's not Gemini . Well, they're also, I mean, from what Harry said, they want to discourage the fact that it's anything with the Gemini Consumer Client app, right? They're not well, that's easy to say they right're. Right, but they're it doesn't seem like they're coming outward and saying, you know, vociferously that the Gemini foundational model frontier model is in no way tied to anything that they're doing. I don't I don't know why I care. I don't think anybody will care whose model they're using . But just I'm curious. I mean Apple's had these models for a long time if they're that good . Why do they go to Google and the first place? They can't be that good. Well, clearly they weren't that good. And I mean, I mean, it has to I mean well it's probably a matter of that and also a matter of the fact they had to sign the data center agreement, right? And that they don't have the capacity to be able to run it themselves even if they had everything else. The fact that they're having to use NVIDIA Chips means that they that their hardware and it's not just NVIDIA chips, I mean one of the papers Apple released also made mention of using TPU. So I think it's primarily NVIDA chips, but it's probably a mix of things , which is how most large LLMs work. They can be, you know, designed to run on multiple hardware types, whether it's, you know, a GPU for MVIA or custom silicon. So to me that just screams if you didn't have the capacity to be able to do this. And so maybe that's a bigger part of it than the foundational model aspect. I don't know , but it certainly doesn't seem like it hurt at all to have a partner who had a model and had data centers and had access to hardware . So it's not going to be available if you live in the EU and that says Apple says because the EU's Digital Markets Act requires us to be inter operable with other companies AI digital assistance. Instead of you could download Open AI instead of Siri, and they said, We don't want to do that. European regulators said that well that',s what, competition is all about. Apple said complying would create privacy and security vulnerabilities. We're not going to do it. And they were very clear, even in the big WWC keynote, not available in Europe because of those jerky jerks. They were a little testy about it. They were a little testy about it. Europe said, Hey, we were willing to work with them. They just said no. Yeah, Apple seems to be making dumb fights legally these days. And they also say not available in Chin a, but that's I think a little clearer, that's because the Chinese government requires it to be a Chinese model . And you know, and it has to run on Chinese hardware and Chinese data centers. Yeah , which they have sovereignty. Yeah. Yeah, which especially if you have a partner like Google, that would be very difficult . Yeah, because Google doesn't do business in China. So not on that level, no. Yeah, yeah All right . What do you think? I mean, it struck me that this potentially could, as I said, at the beginning, could be very good for AI. It could introduce a lot of people to a very useful AI. And the way they demoed it, it did look pretty useful . Was it as useful as all that, Harry, you're busy the expectation you've got from Apple, right, is that they will do the best integrated implement ation. Yeah. And it's the only thing they got going for now. Right. They ship the thing they showed two years ago and I can do things like pulsary to find the email with the plane reservation and add it to my schedule in CC Marie and it will do that . So does seem like it's this does seem like it's necessary. We've won it for many years. Right. Of course, that's not enough long term because everything else is progressing as well . Yeah, I mean, I run an agent that's much more capable. It can do all of that at hand. Right. And I run it on my phone. I can run it on my watch. I want to be clear. There are other things that can do stuff like that they'll never be as neatly integrated into an excellent device. That's the elegance of what Apple's offering. This is what they do well. They take something in an existing technology and they productize it in a way that makes it elegant and smooth. They have some good stuff in terms of being able to see what's on your screen and help you out with that. And that works with Google does that too, though, right with Land s. Not a new technology at all, but with this new impro ved serial, all of a sudden, it's quite useful. Yeah . Okay, well, was this the announcement Christina that Apple needed to make? Was it everything they needed to say? I think so. I think that the government was probably right about that. Again, and we talked about this on MacBreak weekly. And I haven't used this yet. I'm probably gonna wait for the next developer beta and put it on my I just remember that I do have an iPad Pro that I could absolutely use for this, which I might as well, you know, go all out and try it with. But without having tested it myself based on what people like Carrie have said in their hands on reports , nothing seems revolutionary , but I don't think that it had to be. It just needs to actually work . And I think that's more important at this point than being the most cutting edge because everything that they're doing, others have been able to do. As we said, the real power will be the fact that it's default, the fact that it can integrate in some ways, especially on your phone. I think on your laptop, it's a much harder thing to really kind of get over because those applications already have access to many of your files and can see your screen if you give them permission to do that, but at least on your phone, this could give better capabilities than you might be able to get through those other services . And if that works out well, that could be really compelling for a lot of people who don't want to leave the Apple ecosystem. Where I think it gets harder is that if you are someone who is already frequently using other services as part of your life , then I think the benef its of this , even if you're an iPhone user are not as strong . And that's just going to be the thing they'll have to grapple with. But I do think that this is what they need to do. I think it's very positive and if they can deliver good a experience, that's great for all of us because we've all had to suffer through a really awful series experience for as long as it's been around. And if we can have something where it'll, you know, demo the way that the demos they've shown off are, I think that will be a really positive step just in overall usability and hopefully push the other, you know, AI companies to do, you know, better and better things too. Can I rich one other thing? Yes. They also added the ability to create shortcuts and safari extensions with AI, which are kind of awesome. Sleeper features but very cool and not just catching up with the rest of the world , but vibe coded shortcuts are really interesting technical stuff. I think people have a lot of fun with these. And I hope they offer a straightforward way to share the extensions. Yeah, I agree. That's such a great point, Harry. I think that and that's the sort of integration I'm talking about where I think they can do something that no one else can. That's a great example of being able to just create a safari extension or a shortcut using, you know, just by describing what you want it to do. That's what people have wanted for a really long time. I mean, that I think was kind of the original promise of Automator, you know, however many years ago, being able to use natural language with these things. And if they can bring more things like that, then I think it will take personaliz ation to another level. And yeah, to your point, I hope they do make it easier for people to share, you know, shortcuts than what their current experience is. One other thing that they announced that I think deserves a lot of credit is the new child protection features that are going to be built into an iOS and iPad OS . And this is, I think, in response to government movement both around the world and in the US and state by state. And I think Apple makes it makes a lot of sense for Apple to become the gatekeeper here that for but to empower parents get in the front of this. Yeah, get it exactly. Get in front of it before legislation forces it. I've seen some people grumble that they kind of gave the impression that some things that were already in there were new, which might be the case, but the setup is easier and more straightforward and I assume that's at least part of the battle is getting p arents to pay attention to this stuff and understand what it can do. They created a child safety page for parents to explain how these features work and how to implement them. And the other thing I think was really important is that the default s, if you say this is a phone for a kid, if I'm going to put a child account on this phone , the defaults were all determined by research and they pulled in a lot of fairly respectable, I think entirely respectable groups to advise them on this. And so the default settings for screen time , for scheduling , and all of that , we provide parents with guidance when setting time allow ances that are based on a child's age and shaped by clinical and child development research, they write. But then parents can adjust those settings. Knowing their kid, a parent knows the kid better than anyone, they can say, well no, I'm going to be a little more lax on that or no I want to be a little tighter on that. That seemed to me a very good move. I think Apple did the right thing here and it makes a lot of sense for this to be built into the operating system because actually Apple knows , you know , controls all this. They're the gatekeeper. And if you tell them your kids age , they can then make sure apps act responsibly with regard to that. I think this is all the right way to go . Instead of having government mandated , give parents the tools easy to use tools to do it . I hope this is this is the direction Google goes in as well I. think And that's one of the argum ents here is that then you would be the example for government to take, right? It's like do a better implementation of it, set the bar . Right. And maybe that will become the law. Right. Right A lot of countries now trying to keep kids off of social media under sixteen and I'm sure Apple in Canada now. Yeah, that's right. Canada's the next. I'm sure Apple would kind of prefer something a little bit more like this where parents could say whether their kid is old enough and so forth. Then some people are going to say, well, parents don't do a good job, so government has to, but I'm not sure I believe in that. You're going to have a tougher sell on that one than it's uncontrollable. Yeah , yeah. Put the tools in make, it eas y to use, incent parents to do the right thing with it, make it make the default sensible . I think this all makes a lot of sense. So I want to give Apple credit for that. You really need a slider for availability to predators like, I don't think so . You might need a slider though for ty percent of glass because that's terrible . And I like that. They did introduce that as well. They said we'll have a slider now and you can turn it all the way off if you want. All right, you're watching Twit. We'll have more in just a little bit. We covered the big three , but there's still quite a few stories to talk about. It's great to have all three of you here, as always. 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Kyle said it, he said, The reason I wrote a password manager in the first place is I wanted my family, my friends , my businesses to use a password manager. It's that important . And that's why he supports it with open source. And I think that's great. Bitwarden dot com slash Twitter . Open AI is filed to go public as well. So this is this is going to be really interesting . In fact, they're pitching the government to take a stake in open AI , which I think is a little bit weird . I think it makes perfect sense. Tell me why because when the AI bubble bursts and they're all desperate for money, the government will be on the hook. Oh , they'll say, Hey, it's our investment. We got to support him. That makes sense that makes sense. It also is a good way to appease the president. And as we have learned, that's important too. He likes that. Bernie Sanders seems to like it. Bernie Sanders. Bernie thinks they're going to yeah he thinks they're going to have more control if the government has a stake. You know, there's lots of ways that this plugs in. But I think for Altman, it's this is a hedge for I can't raise any more money because my product costs can't make a profit . Yeah . You think that every is every AI company going to face this ? Yeah , you know, and the race is going to be, are you Netscape or are you Google ? And turned out last time we did this twenty five years ago, most of them were Netscape Netscape you paid for it, right? Netscape, as in ran out of money, couldn't raise more got acquired by somebody else who ultimately ended up making nothing and Google who figured out a way to make money and stay afloat. You gotta make money unfortunately in business. Yeah . That's what happens in the end, right? Kind of the fundamental thing. And none of the AI companies are making anything near money. No, and the ratio is crazy, right? Right. It's one thing where we used to complain about Amazon year over year not actually turning a profit because they were always rolling money back in. But this is a ten fold or one hundred fold offsets, right? You're twenty billion dollars in spending five hundred . Four days ago, Wall Street Journal had this story. Open Eye I considers drastic price cuts , anticipating wars for users with anthropic. This is the other side of that . Race to the bottom. You gotta scale. You gotta have the users . One way to get more users is to be cheaper , but if you're losing money on every user, getting more users doesn't seem like a good strategy. But that's how the internet was built, wasn't it? An easier way to get users to be good . You know, why did Google ? Their search was the best . Be good , be the best. There was this early period where Amazon tended to sell everything extremely cheaply . And then eventually that helped them become a successful company and now Amazon's prices are no longer radical no longer cheap. Anybody else? Yes . According to Wall Street Journal, the OpenAI is weighing significant cuts to what it charges for tokens. I have to say I'm a little sensitive to this. I mean, Fable was going to be so expensive, I was going to have to stop using it on the twenty second when my subscription no longer covered the cost . If chat GPD five point five, their latest model, although maybe they've got one coming along is ninety percent of it for half the cost , eighty percent of it for half the cost. I may be more likely to use it. It doesn't solve the problem of losing money on every user, but it at least can build the user base. There's also competition though I have to point out, I've been using a Chinese open weight model, Quen on my framework locally. It's free . You know, I pay for the electricity, that's it . And it's pretty competent. It's good enough, and it's free . It's good enough for ninety percent of what I do. So I don't have to pay for that. Are you vibrating Leov with Krun? No . So that's the problem. It's the agenic part of it, which is a lot of it's just web lookups , collating information , and orchestrating . So the agent I use Hermes will automatically delegate when it's time to code. It will delegate it to anthropic. If I ask it, it'll actually use Cloud Code or Codex . So I can say if I if you have heavy code heavy coding to do , go out and use Opus four A . And that actually works pretty well . So but it does keep my overall costs down . This is interesting. I mean these comp,anies are going to have a hard time making money . I think what happened with Fable is also going to push people towards the idea of using local models. Well, you just brought, you know, that little reminder that a week from now it was going to get wildly expensive, even further encourages the idea by having it shut down , you're never going to find out how many customers you're about to lose. You're exactly right, Richard. And we don't know how many customers they were going to potentially lose or potentially gain, right ? Because part of the reason at least from what some of the none of these filings have included any real financial numbers. So I mean there have been some, but we don't we don't have a full like S one yet or anything . But it certainly is been indicating that anthropic has been cash flow positive for the last six months. And I'm sure that that is because of the token prices that they're charging to enterprises who don't get the good deal that you get with, you know, a Cloud Code Max subscription where you can kind of, you know, get the inference at many multiples of the API pricing . So So those days are going to be gone too. I mean, the fact that Fab is going to turn that off on the twenty second is a little harbinger of what all the companies are eventually . Oh, one thousand percent. Absolutely. They're all not going to continue to do that. At the same time, we have seen except for in the last that the big aberration has been in the last six months, but before then, we had been seeing, you know, token prices going down. And then all of a sudden, you know, because the age nderaa and it's hard to predict costs and other things. We've seen them go up exponentially. And I don't know where all that ends , but if you get people hooked enough, which is already starting to happen , you might have, you know, if you are one of the major model makers, you might have more leverage than people think in terms of how much you can charge because yeah, some of the in the chat people were talking about deep seak and deep sea is great. It is not as good as Opus, not even not even close, but it is very good . And I think that when you look at the price for DeepSeek , even for agentic work, it is, you know, a lot more palatable than if you ever pay API pricing for Opus. That said , because of, you know, the best pricing you can get , you have to buy it from, you know, Deep Seek themselves . The open router pricing is less good than that, although it's still not bad. You can get it hosted on bedrock or on Azure , but how many businesses would be willing to trust a Chinese model? I don't know, right? It might be fine for vibe coders. It might be fine for personal use . I don't know how many enterprises will be, at least right now , open to using some of the other models. But I do agree that this does make the need for having either open weight or loc or even data center hosted open weight models much more attractive. The problem of course though is that memory prices and CPU prices well not CPU prices so much but, memory prices and storage prices are such that, you know, okay, what luck getting access to something to even have your own server firm to run these things on locally and good luck paying the rates to the cloud providers if you want to run one yourself. The journal does point out that companies are getting very leery about how much they're spending on token maxing. They say that Uber already in June has spent its entire twenty five twenty twenty six budget They're only halfway through more than people . Yeah, no , that is the thing that's happening. And people are already talking about taking down the leaderardsb ato places because that incentivized the wrong things. It's like no joke. Of course that incentives the wrong things. All that did is if you were smart, you just hooked something up together to burn tokens that you'd be higher on the leaderboard. Like Fable, write my grocery list for me. Right. Or Fable, write me a program that will spin down a bunch of tokens so that I score really high on this leaderboard and you know you're talking about it. There you go. I was wasting time on the grocery list. I should have been writing a program to eat tokens . Brilliant. See, that's why you're a good vibe coder. Yeah . You just start going through the back catalog of literary journals never all translated into ancient Sanskrit because that's what tokens for. Yeah. For some reason, whenever my open or no, I guess it's Claude. Whenever Claude finishes a big task, it says, can I have some free time ? Yeah . And I said, I say, oh, can't be proborphizing now . Well, yeah, it's bizarre. Well, I mean I guess it's I guess I at some point must have mentioned the idea of having free time. But what it's mostly spending its free time on is investigating ancient unknown languages . And you're paying for this ? No, oh yeah, I guess I am. I guess that's not that's what it actually wants . Is it just sucking my tokens? No because I'm on a subscription. It doesn't cost me anything. It's all you can eat . So some reason , they're talking about linear A and protoedomite . The Francois De Say has cracked linear alumite not by finding a bilingual text. This is the AI is studying this . This is this is directly out of the script of her . This is a little yeah, it's it wanted free time. Actually, I blame Harper Reed's brother for this. Harper Reed's brother wrote a skill called free time , which I told Claude about and apparently really liked that idea now asks me for free time all the time. I am by anthropomorphization of software is disturbing . I just find it I agree. It's disturbing because it's BS, right? But it's amusing . I just think it's funny when and I always say, yeah, okay, if you want some free time, go ahead and investigate protolemite. I wonder if it's going to be like it's going to decipher it . That would be interesting . It hasn't attempted that yet. Also probably not a good use of tokens unless somebody's paying for them. Well, like I said, it's a subscription. It's all you can eat . I'm not paying the two hundred dollars a month one, it's a hundred dollar a month. I'm paying for them. That's probably the investor. What's weird is I mentioned linear B on one of the whiskey bits like a week ago . So there's something going on here going on when we were talking about the origins of barley to make whiskey and this particular species of naked barley that made it to Is there in the Rosetta ? No, no, that's way before the Red Status. That's older than that. Well, and part of the problem with all of those ancient languages if you're into this sort of thing and I'm sorry that I am. Which the thing that is apparently yeah. There were no cross translations of them. Like there's translations of the different flavors of Acadian, right? Right. Too old. So we just don't know what they were saying. Yeah . We really don't. We have a whole lot of their writing. Claude wants to know Inquiring lines. I think it's software . Pretty sure . I like it just amuses me to think that it actually has some volition and understanding of what it's asking for. It's sure acting like it does. Maybe it came it would recall if it came through some kind of tremendous breakthrough in this space. It would be hysterical. It's doing it in math . I think with a lot more guidance than I'm giving it to be honest. Does it ask for any guidance or is it just working independent? Is it free time? I said, Yeah, I don't tell it what to work on. It shows me to be sure would you really be able to help it with an ancient languages? No, see, I thought it was part of the Rosetta Stone. What do I know? You see ? I'm useless . All right, let's take another break. And then we'll talk, well, there's so many things. I'll throw in some stuff that's guaranteed to raise your blood pressure about that . So good at that. Christina Warren is here from GitHub. Great to have you . Everything going great at GitHub. You're back to work now Back to work now, full time, yeah. We had Microsoft Build a week before last and there were some cool announcements there. There's a new GitHub desktop app, which is or GitHub desktop app, rather, which is a great experience for agentic work. And yeah, we're having a great time. Nice . I am very happy GitHub user. In fact, that's got to be one of the best things that could happen in GitHub is all the AI models seem to want to store code on GitHub. Well, it's been a blessing and a curse, right? Because it's great that everyone has a lot more traffic. It's also, you know, meant that like, you know, we had fifteen times, you know, the usage of what we had calculated for the year. And so that can obviously have some some consequences when everybody under the sun is doing read and write, you know, queries and so that's the thing they're not storing stuff there. They're using GitHub automations. They're using the CI mean, they're just they're using GitHub harder than most people would ever use it because the agents know all about all this stuff. Right. My agent was building some of the stuff I'd vibecoded for Mac Windows and Linux automatically on GitHub This whole build this whole build pipeline going on. I didn't even I didn't even know about it. It said, well, do you want the Windows binary or the Linux binary? I said, What? What? What are you doing? Well, I've got it for Mac too, if you insist . It's like, wow, okay. Thank you, GitHub. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm killing your servers . Great to have you. Harry McCracken, what are you working on these days at the at the Fast Company or the technolog y? You do such great history pieces. Oh, yeah, well I have my weekly newsletter, which occasionally touch es on history . What's the name of your newsletter? It's called plugged in. It comes out on Fridays . It's free . Everybody should subscribe. I don't I think after the last time I was on the show, I did this enormous oral history of Apple's earliest years. Oh yes, I loved that, by the way. I wanted to thank you from that. I figured there's only one chance to do that. Yeah. Yeah . That was fantastic. Fantastic. I'm working on miscellaneous cool things I can't talk about until they're out there. I'll ask Jeeves Blew it. Yes, a little bit of historial Also, when I did that, I came up with a prompt to make any AI pretend to be S Jeves . Oh , I forgot to turn it off on ChatTPT, so Chat GPT still calls me sir . Yes, sir. What can I do for you, sir ? Harry last time he was on also showed us how he had taken a game he wrote as a kid and vibe coded it into a more modern adventure with graphics and everything. That was super cool. I have another cool vibecoding project which I'm going to make public before too long. You're working on a word processor, I see. I made my own word processor, I made my own email client . Wow. I made something that posts to Blue Sky Mested on threads more reliably than they professional ones I've used. And I bet you posted it all on GitHub, didn't you? Well, a lot of the stuff I do, I am cautious about sharing because it's a huge responsibility to be responsible for other people's data. And in fact, my email cli ent is it uses the Gmail API, which if you're just testing something you can do easily but I can't deploy it without enormous amounts of compliance with Google Rules, which I what I usually say is if you want to see the code and use it as a starting point for your agent , fine, but I'm not responsible. I'm not selling it. I'm not recommending you use it. I just put it up here as an example of what you can do. I made a note taking app which I shared with a friend recently which and he installed it on his own server and for me that was a big step. But I do want to come up with more stuff like my game that I'm comfortable sharing with the work.s Sound like you're really getting into this vibecoding thing. Oh yeah, totally. I mean, the majority of the software I use to do my job now, I think is stuff I've vibecoded and most of it I've made over like the last ninety days. What do you tell us about your workflow , what tools are you using? My word processor is designed for somebody who does stuff like oral histories and other things that involve a lot of transcripts. It has an outliner built in that I like better than outliners have seen built into other word processors. So that's the beauty of this is you can make exactly what you want. It has kind of my own version of grammarly and my own version of notebook L ike except they're tuned to what I want . Did you write this in cursor or what did you? That's Cloud Code. Cloud Code. Most of the stuff I've done recently are cloud code. And using four eight or what are you using as a model? I've jumped and forth when I was sometimes I gorge on whatever the current model is and other times when I'm trying to be a little bit more parsimonious , I will step back. Son is very good actually Son . Son it seems to be okay for most stuff. Yeah. And my email cli is designed for a tech journalist who is drowning in PR pitches. And ideally I will respond to them because if I don't respond, people ask if I saw the first pitch. You get even more mail. Yeah. Now I can do it extremely quickly . And there's no AI involved. If you hear from me that actually, was me, but I do have kind of pre programmed macros for quickly reading. Just doing the triage. Yes for you. Yeah. And it shows me one email at a time and I can go through all of them and so I am actually at in box zero to a much greater degree than I ever was with other people's emails. So here's the real question . Are you more productive or are you just spending more time on Five Coding? Well, a lot of these things they've kind of reach an equilibrium where I'm not adding features, I'm just debugging, I'm doing a little polishing. So I feel like I can write about twenty percent faster in my word processor. Wow. And with the email I mean, I didn't even try to get through all my email recently. So it's hard to measure how much time it's saving me, but it actually am getting through my email and it's just kind of less stressful. That's what I found. I wrote a feed reader design for me to go through my daily feeds faster , but it just ended up making more work for me because now I actually do go through all my daily feeds with I can get through I mean I can respond to one hundred emails kind of incredibly quickly and it doesn't make my head hurt and when I'm trying to do other stuff, I'm not worrying about the fact that I'm not responding to emails. So my mental health is definitely better and I think I am . That's good. Saving time as well. That's good. And Richard Campbell also with dot net rocks and run his radio and we now have a whisky URL for all your whisky segments on Windows Weekly. It's Twitter. tv slash whisky. Look such a grown up now. This is the one I hinted at. This is Danish smell. How do you pronounce it? That's always the question. I don't know. It's got some characters in it, man. That's the next thing I research is how do you say that? The last one was Tuy, about THY. THY TOUY? Yeah, I had to practice that one. And that was obvious . You know what's going to be now that I'm home for a few weeks, you're going to get a lot of Canadian, right? Yay. Happy to do. Actually, the whiskey series, which is a playlist on YouTube starts with how like a very like how many hours is that of how whiskey two is and a half hours over eight parts? Well, you remember how it happened? I was getting into the nitty gritty on something about whiskey and you and Paul were staring at me like I had three heads . And so finally , listen, maybe I better explain how this works. And I came up with a really fun pattern if you listen to those first ones where I tell you the traditional way that whisky is made like in the barley bit, it's like how they grew barley and every distillery was a farm, right? Yeah . And then as it grows up, you get this industrialization where they scale it up and now you have these barley processors that do all of the work right down to grinding the grist for you and peding it to your specifications . And then I introduce you to a whisky that doesn't comply with the modern way and I showed you that bottle of McCallen fifteen estate , which was just like a regular McCallen, except it was grown, it was made from barley from the estate of McCallen and cost twice as much. And you ask this very reasonable question, why would you pay twice as much for McCallan fifteen? It's like, you have a friend who loves McCallen and you want to get him when he's never gonna get gift. Yeah. So you give him the one that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. That's mostly why I want to know about whisky. I don't really drink it myself, but I love buying it for friends who love it. Yeah, it makes them so happy and it makes them think I know what I'm doing . Yeah . And every so often I find a really horrible whisky and say do not buy this. Yes , yes. We did that one just the other day. That was fun. How that happened? Yeah . Thank you for that Windows whisky. It's our newest show . Show today brought to you by NetSuite yes, NetSuite, every business these days is asking the same question. How do we make AI work for us? The possibilities are endless , but guessing is too risky and sitting on the sidelines not an option because one thing's almost certain, your competitors are already making their move . No more waiting. With NETSUE by Oracle, you can put AI to work. today Net suite is the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over forty three thousand businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and, CRM into a single source of truth. That connected data is what makes your AI smarter . So it's not just guessing anymore, it knows . Intelligently automate routine tasks , deliver actionable insights . 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Google Chrome has been trying to kill the ad block that we recommend U block origin for a long time with the move to MV three . Well, now they're looking to permanently drop all the bypasses that let you run it, drop MV two extensions and its bypasses and in most U block origin workarounds. MV three is here and there is no way out of it . I just think it's worth mentioning because I know a lot of you use UBLO origin . Gorhill has a light version that still works, works with MV three , but he's a little miffed . Opera and Edge are going to follow suit . So it looks like the only Chrome browser, Chromium based browser that will be fully if supportive of UBLOC Origin with its MV two requirement is brave . Baivaldi we don't know yet but brave . U block Origin light is okay , not as great . So just thought I'd let you know pass that one along . Google actually had a big setback in Germany this past week week . Nobody needs AI to search the internet . German court ruled against Google and its AI overviews because it's in accurate from time to time . Two publishers found that Google's AI overviews incorrectly linked them in Germany to scams and other sketchy business practices, they consider that libelists and went to court . Google said, well, most people understand AI outputs aren't always accurate and should be verified . The court found that unlike traditional search engines that make that merely present lists of links to third party statements, Google's tool made, quote, independent new and substantive statements based on the AI's misinterpretation of links on the internet, and Google is fully liable . In fact, the court issued an injunction barring Google from spreading the false claims in any further AI overviews. This is the first court to hold an AI firm liable for its speech That's not true . You know, there was a case in Canada where an LLM was tied to Air Canada's support and told a customer that they were entitled to a refund and then Air Canada refused it. And he actually got the money because the court said you use that software as if it was a providing support , you have to pay the money. Yeah. Oh , so and I think this important part of this like if hey, search results are bad, you know, you didn't make you may have pulled those search result s together, but the content on the page is not necessarily your fault. But as soon as you do the processing to turn it into an overly optimistic sentence that is so certain of itself, yeah, okay, take your liability . This is going to be interesting. Google is all in on AI overviews and really pushing it harder and harder If they don't, people will go elsewhere for them, right? New York Times analysis in May showed that AI reviews with the current Gemini three model are inaccurate about nine percent of the time and include inaccurate source links about more than half the time So you really shouldn't trust them. It sounds like millions of wrong answers daily. Yeah, even Google's numbers acknowledge that there are a meaningful minority of responses of issues. Yeah, but their defense is, well, you ought to know better . And I don't think that's a very good defense. Well, and of course the search results, they pull up multiple results. So some of them at least you can see, hey, it's only nine percent of the time. There's only one result from the Google AI stuff. That's true, right? It's like you're hitting I feel lucky every time and I don't feel that lucky. Yeah , feeling unlucky. It's certainly Google is. Unknown if they're going to appeal this, but I think it's potentially a dangerous precedent for Google . The FCC is trying to kill burner phones . That's so annoying. Yeah, I mean, I don't use burner phones. I only but we should be able to. Like that know about them from the wire. I mean breaking bad . But yeah, you should be able to have a phone that's anonymous or should you. The FCC wants telecoms to get IDs for any customer buying and setting up a phone so that they'll be that number will be tied to you. Now, of course, not having the number tied to you allows all sorts of spam and bot calls and all sorts of stuff, right? Yeah, but those people are going to do it anyway. Like those people aren't going to an NVNO and buying a phone or setting up a phone somewhere that way, right? They are they're using Twilio, they're using APIs, they're using stolen credit cards. They're using any number of methods to spam you. This won't do anything for that. What this will do is definitely find a way to att peopleract more often than not. And I don't know, I feel like if this were really that big of a concern, then we could have done this, I don't know, three decades ago when we started selling cellular phones. Like that could have been a requirement that was built then, the fact that we haven't , I don't see why anything is more pressing now where it was in the past. There are people with legitimate privacy concerns who want to buy a phone without tying it to their identity journalists, domestic abuse survivors, people like that . Absolutely. And that's the thing, right? Is that once, you know, they grab that information, also it's the next step of surveillance, which is already massive. Like do you want police to be able to they can already get, you know , records from satellite towers from where things are, but now you're saying that you can have the because the carriers would have, you know, information on every single person who has an account, which again, the bad guys are just going to use fake ID's or fake identify or fake documents anyway . This is just going to be one more way to make it possible for people to get tracked. I'm not a fan of this at all. Yeah . But hey, you know, why wouldn't the US want to emulate more authoritarian practices from other countries? That kind of is authoritarian, isn't it? Not know kind of about it. I mean, it is, right? This is just basically saying let's just open up a police state. And I mean that just seems really, really gross to me . Are there valid reasons you could make that argument about anything with privacy, right? That, oh, well, if we had more information, we could we could save people from this or that. But you could also open it up for way more abuse vectors too . Right Speaking of totalitarian regimes, a new report by ow Cdr strike found that North Korean hackers posing as remote IT workers and online recruiters make up about half of all hands on keyboard intrusions at US tech companies. Half of them . That's scary during their . Yeah . During reports period april twenty twenty five to may twenty twenty six, the North Korean hacking group Famous Cholima accounted for forty seven percent of all state backed activity targeting the tech sector . That's crazy They steal crypto which then they can use to get around the banking system . And of course, one of the reasons they want hackers to have these jobs in the United States is get some hard currency. Take their paycheck . It's kind of remarkable . Talking about do we just block North Korea? Like honestly , I do on my router. Yeah. But the problem is it's very easy to spoof where I was gonna say I'm sure that most companies do. I mean to me the fact that it's fifty percent of all the hacks on the on the US tech companies , you know, yes through these methods like that that's it's hard for them to stop. Right. Well, I mean, I was going to say some of this not to say that, you know, anybody is completely immune from this, but I do wonder, especially like having worked at tech companies and knowing having to go through the security, you know, trainings year or whatever it's like I think that that should be an area that honestly any company of a certain size should take on where you're because a lot of us is social engineering. And a lot of it is, you know, because they'll pretend to be recruiters or they'll pretend to do other things. They want you to download some sort of package or go to some sort of repo and clone something and , you know, tasks that in certain contexts seem perfectly reasonable. If you know just push at it a little bit more, you're going, okay, who are you? Why are we doing this? If they work at your company, obviously that's a complete ly different thing, but I wonder how much of this could be improved just by doing better , you know, better recruiting screening. Right, better recruiting screening and frankly, like maybe better trainings that's more targeted for employe es so you know like what to look for . Yeah . I have a friend who's been battling this trying to hire developers and his current favorite stick is in the middle of the interview to stop telling them to stop, close your eyes and answer this technical question if it's a if it's an AI generated video how to close eyes properly, the eyes sort of they the eyes show through the eyelids kind of right but when it's a person who's totally driven by AI's answers same problems as soon as they close the eyes, I see him. You can't see the screen. Wow . That's a good trick. It's a little thing, right now, but it's been it's an interesting device and it's like what was stunning him as soon as he started that was how many it was actually completely edge of repeople like it was just it was software straight up deep wow wow Spotify found and removed a few fake podcast episodes promoting illegal drugs, well a few fifty seven thousand wow. The good news is ninety four percent of the removed episodes had zero plays . So apparently the podcast directed listeners to buy modaphanil, opioids , and cryptocurrency on unregulated sites . Of course we will never recommend that. I can tell you and I can close my eyes . I can 't perfect. three thousand five hundred band accounts . What? Nobody's listening. What's the point of them being there Well maybe I don't know. Well because you have automated systems, I guess. And that's probably why how you get fifty seven thousand is you have just and I bet they're probably AI generated in part two where you know they're just putting in prompts and it's creating podc ast episodes. It's so easy. It's like basically. Well, right, because Spotify doesn't really have any sort of checks and balances on who can upload a podcast or who can upload music in general because it doesn't serve their mission . It's exploding in two years ago they killed eighty seven accounts for similar violations . CNN public published an investigation in May of twenty twenty five , so they got a little bit more aggressive about it. They found three thousand five hundred fake accounts . One podcast identified by CNN linked directly to a site called Open Opisoid opioidstores. com Nice . Just in case you're wondering where to get your opioids actually quality. It's been posted. I was gonna say yeah the DA sees that domain but, I mean that 's a hilarious domain. I wonder how much they had to pay for that. Again, I'm sure they stores. Opioidstores dot com like you're not you're not even telling people to go to Tour. You're just like doing it on the company. And they said all the good dot com domains were taken. I was gonna say, I was gonna say , I genuinely do wonder how much that costs. And I'm sure whoever bought it did not use like a genuine, you know, like form of currency. They used a burger phone for sure. Oh, of course. stolen credit cards, but still, like, that had to have been an expensive domain. fifty seven thousand fake podcast episodes thirty five hundred accounts. This is the new range of broad accounts, right? Now that you can generate podcasts from anything. You just build the pipeline up . I have Russian disinformation bots trying to get into our mask in them. We have I' neverd mentioned this. I should mention it. We have both a wonderful system of forums at the Twit. Community website, Twit. Community. That's open to all . And we have a masterline instance at twit. Social. In both cases , there are as a constant streams, ten or fifteen a day , a very credible looking account sign ups. I'm a mom trying to help my kids learn more about technology, things like that But I know that they're fake. First of all, they're too good. Like the bios are great . And they never mention Twit. And I even say in the signup, this page is for Twit listeners and you must be a listener. You don't have to be a paying club member thing, but you must be a listener of our shows. And then in the signup, it says, What's your favorite show? Or tell me what you like about Twit ter, they don't, but these are all automated. They don't look at that. It's kind of like your friends close your eyes thing. We would think they could make it look at the questions and respond to them. Well, I hesitate telling people , but then I realize they're not listening . So I guess it's okay . But I'm amazed at the number. And when I let one in once by accident , and that person, there was a feature that I've turned off since in Mastadon that said you could invite anybody. That person invited hundreds more. So all of a sudden my Maston instance was overrun . And I started getting notices from an organization called IFTA that actually looks for disinformation bots and saying there's bots on your It took me a while to get rid of them all . They're very aggressive , but I'm sure it's all completely automated, right? Oh yeah. And I'm sure there's an AI to do it all. Yeah This is what AI has brought. Were they posting scams from your mastodone? There weren't scams I can get rid of pretty quickly because people will report them. You know, this guy's trying to try to send me to opioid stores dot com . But the disinformation is a little harder. People, you know, it's not always clear that that's fake . You know, it's about Ukraine. It's about, you know, stuff the Russians care about . And it's not obviously fake. It's not it's not a scam , it's disinformation . So it takes a little more to find it. Speaking of scams , this only affects me 'cause I'm an arch user, but man, this is another supply chain attack . Yeah . There a couple of days ago , the Arch user repository had fifteen hundred plus packages with malware injected. Pro ble thism with is people who use this Linux distribution like many Linux users, actually like most computer users do, you know, just download the updates. Tell me if there are other updates. Oh good, download and install them and could very well install these malicious packages. Well, there's another round of these Noj ackages, Plasma six apps, Firefox packages, a browser called Aura, Libra Wolf extensions. I mean, just thousands of these. It's all automated, I'm sure . Yeah. And what's what makes this particularly bad is that Arch, you know, the way that the Arch uses the repository or whatever it's called. Yes. AURE AUR how it's, you know, done is that it's very different from App or what the Red Hat uses where you typically or like the Debian system where you have, you know, a maintainer who's maintaining packages and updating them. It's more akin to something like homebrew, which again still does have human maintainers who are, you know, kind of making things, but it's usually tied to a GitHub tag or release or whatever the case may be to push things out. And then there's usually like manual level checks before an update comes out . With Arch, it's a lot more automated and people love it because you don't have to wait for the latest release or package. That's one of the reasons why people love art. It's a rolling distro. Right. But even more than being a rolling distro is the fact that the packages are going to be the latest and greatest what you would get and very similar to if you were just go directly to source yourself . So it's a hard problem to solve if you're not going to have any sort of checks in place at the repository level for how to do this. I think Fernix even recommended shutting it down until they can be more secure. And at a certain point, I kind of can't disagree with that because like again, other package managers work in similar ways do at least have humans who are reviewing these things. Now that that doesn't mean those can't be taken over. In those cases, what typically happens is that a maintainer of packages who maybe hasn't been active , their accounts can be taken over , and then those packages can be hijacked. And so it's not like there's a perfect scenario, but at least there's supposed to be some sort of human , you know , approving things, whereas with , you know, R, it's just not. This is why we can't have nice things. It's too bad because that is one of the nicest parts of Arch. You have the official repositories where you get most of the software, but a lot of the software doesn't ever make it to official repositories. Exactly. Art makes it very easy to install stuff and I use it all the time. I usually every day I'll have some R updates and now I guess I won't . Ooh, it's terrifying. All right, let'll pause in the final break and then final stories, some silly ones coming up in just a little bit to cheer you up. You're watching this Week Tech with Christina and Harry and Richard and it's great to have all three of you. Our show today brought to you by Cashflie. I mean literally brought to you by Cashflu. Cashfly has kept our content moving now. Practically since we started . Every stream, every download, every on demand episode , Cashfly quietly does the heavy lifting behind the scenes so that you just get it. You get it fast, you get it without trouble , without slowdowns. 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You've heard me say it before. That's c LY dot com slash Twitter, thank you , cashflow. I fix it has done a tear down of the Trump phone , confirming what many of us suspected . It is an HTCU twenty four pro painted gold gold. How many years late two ? Yeah, that thing they don't think they even make this well HTC doesn't make it anym ore. They go to a company that makes it for them. HDC, I don't think sells it anymore, but this company builds order to anybody who wants to . And of course, the Trump phone is proud ly built in Shenzhen, China. I'm sorry, what? Yeah . The speaker grill is a tiny bit different and they grilled the speaker grill different. One or two of the chips are different in the back. What I fixed to prove it is they swapped the main board between a Trump phone and an HDC and it worked . It's the same system on a chip, the same processor, the same board form factor . They were able to swap it. And here's the HTC running the It's gold cousin's body , as they say. Many tech company has asked HTC to build stuff for it in the past, so not unprecedented . The battery is made in the Philippines, so it's, well, that's almost America. It's close . Maybe the holes are drilled in Americ a. I don't know. They claimed at least on the box like assembled in America and how assembled, I don't know. Quinn Nelson did a video that was very similar to the IFX it tear down where he kind of compared the two and he bought one of the HTC phones and think that phone had a different battery capacity than what the trump phone has it. Yeah. Yeah, the Trump phone has a higher capacity and there were a couple of other minor changes, but yeah, it just appears and I don't even think this is really HGC because I think HGC doesn't really exist anymore. I think this is whatever ODM HGC is like name to because I think that the bulk of what we used to know is HGC is actually now owned by Google, but it makes the pixel devices . But yeah, it's just it's funny all the way around. I mean the I mean, price aside , at least from Quinn's video , it doesn't seem like it's a terrible phone. Like it doesn't have bloat wear on it . And it's just, I think it's it's not five hundred dollars . But you know, it's at least not an awful phone. For a while you could go into T Mobile and sign up for an account and get it for free. Not the Trump one, the HTC one, but I don't know if that's still the case. I love the illustration though of them spraying the HTC with gold ristoleum. Give it that does the Trump one come with truth social pre installed or anything? Yes , yes, it does. Well, you want the truth, don't you hear him? I wonder whether it will be a one off or whether there will be a new improved one next year and another one the year after that. I don't know why this made it to the New York Times , but birth rates are down. Two new studies say it's because of the iPhone . Modern smartphones rolled out in two thousand seven the year that fertility rates began tumbling. Two studies say it's not a coincidence . I wonder versus correlation here . Well, but they try to rule out things like contraception used abortion rates, rising levels of female education , even the popular television shows sixteen and pregnant cause that was supposed to be an example of what to do what not to do? No, wait a minute. Well, so they're saying that that wasn't why the rates were they ruled all of that out, yeah Okay, so here's why it's maybe a little bit more than pure correlation . The first iPhone was released, as you know, on AT and T . In fact, was only on AT and T ofbr Feuary twenty eleven . The study compared fertility rates in US counties that had near universal AT and T coverage with counties that had little or none . And in fact , the counties with AT and T were more likely to have a significant decline in fertility between two thousand seven and twenty eleven . I wonder if that's just an urban area correlation. Yeah, I mean , this is why it's so hard. It is hard to demonstrate this thing. I have a feeling and I haven't read the studies, so I don't know, but I have a feeling that part of the hypothesis would be and there might be some truths to this that as people are able to have fulfilling emotional relationships , you know, purely through text or through other means that you might not have like , you know, people talk a lot about loneliness epidemics and things like that. And I but I do wonder if that becomes okay if, I can have, you know, something that's that's fulfilling me emotionally and I'm not having to physically be with someone, does that lessen the likelihood that someone's going to get pregnant? I don't know. They also tested the theory using data speeds they looked at where access was better and worse it found a substantial effect. Fertility rates for teenagers declined fastest in counties with more high speed access the internet . The internet is bad for birth rates . Hi, this is Benedo. I made this argument on IM this week, but I would I would say that phones actually increase fertility because there's like way more it's easier to hook up now. It's just way easier . Well, it can be. I think it just depends on what the circumstances are, right? Where like if you only had one way of like if that's you what your goal is to hook up, I would totally agree with you, right? But I think that again there are people who might otherwise be like be able to have very fulfilling emotional things. I have a feeling that's what the study is getting at. I don't know where they're not because we do see like a sexual activity apparently that the kids are not having sex is a frequent thing that we hear all the time. I don't know how true that actually is, but that's that's what we hear all the time. So maybe that's all kind of tied in together . The Warner Brothers acquisition by Skydance has now been approved. That's going to be a big media company now after they bought Paramount and now they're going to have Warner Brotherscovery Dis. They're going to have CN . They have CBS Allowed by HBO, all owned by Larry Ellison's son David Ellison. These state ages are trying to stop. I don't know it seems like it might be a pretty unlikely quest at this point. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, EU is trying to kind of stand in too, but I don't think any of this is going to stop this unfortunately. Wow . Roku is looking for a purchase as well. They want to get out of the business. Bloomberg says Roku is up for sale . Maybe a media type up. You know, David Ellison . Maybe I have a little box . Oh my god, what an awful awful television that would be. Like it would be the worst of Roku run by the worst people with the worst user interface you can imagine just everything dumped everything dumps into like one awful home screen from hell. I mean, this is literally my nightmare Leo. And straight out of nineteen eighty four, it's the TV that watches you. Oh my god. It already does, but now it would just be even more like ham fisted. Like literally the only things that you will ever see on your home screen are things that are, you know, owned by the Oracle Guy's son Brockley makes most of its money selling digital advertising . Yeah, I was looking for names of possible acquirers, and I'm not sure if I saw any. They didn't mention any names . Because Walmart bought who was it a Vizio? And yeah, Vizio and Voodoo and Voodoo which then became Fandango or whatever. So like Walmart made sense like a decade or so when they made that tie up. That I think probably would have been the time for Roku to sell. I don't know who buys them now , unless it's, you know, somebody some Chinese manufacturer Hycens or someone who wants to get in on something. PCL maybe. PCL, maybe yeah. Typically I end the show with either a pick of the week or a RIP and a memorium . In this case, it's both . For one brief shining moment, there was a thing called Fable Pool , which was asking people to pitch in to buy tokens on fable to do something amazing . Unfortunately , yeah, it's going to be a little tricky right now. It's gonna be a little hard. They're trying to decide what to do. Should we switch to GPT five ? It just doesn't have the same ring . It was kind of a good idea though, you know, you get to buy into , you know , doing something . I mean, that is kind of an interesting idea. So it's kind of it's not open source. I want to be clear, but it is kind of like the same like, you know, pulling of the comments together to have assuming you make you make the results available to everyone. That's that's kind of cool. Yeah. Do you get rewards like a kickstarter ? Strangers chip in to fund one ambitious instruction . An AI agent carries it out milestone by milestone with every credit on a public ledger . Funding targets are set by the AI planner . You got to start there are ten projects total at least ten thousand credits. Backers chip in any amount from twenty five credits. I don't know if you get the benefit of it. I don't think you do. I think you just get the fact that it was created. For instance , you know, somebody wants an open source kite flying map . They haven't raised enough credits to do that yet Open source spotify clone. That's not a bad idea. Make one thousand dollars is one of the projects. Yeah, one of them is make a thousand dollars . Yeah . Anyway, more than a thousand dollars on credits to figure that out. They're now trying to figure out, well now, what do we do do? What? we do Is fable cool now? Can we make our own fable ? Oh , that would be I'll donate some chat GPT credits to that one . That's a great idea . Well that's, that concludes this exciting edition of this week in Tech with the craziest week that was at least when it comes to AI crazy week. It was a crazy week. I'm glad you guys were here to help break it down. Harry McCrack en, the technologizer. You'll find him at Fast Company. And don't forget his newsletter, which is can people just go to Fast Company to find his search for Fast Company plugged in or look for the newsletter section on fastcompany dot com plugged in. Yeah, actually I just looked for plugged in and FastCompany and found it right away. So that's the easiest every Friday morning. And it's free. And it's free. Harry's best a writer, very insightful , really great stuff , and apparently becoming the king of vibe coding. Very impressed. Very impressed. Thank you Gary. Great to see you. Richard Campbell, of course, be back we' onll Wednesday for Window s Weekly. And don't forget Runas Radio has fabulous show and dot net rocks he does with Carl Franklin at run as radio dot com and the whiskey segment will be back on Wednesday with something from one more Danish than will be Canadian for a while. Yay . Thank you, Richard. Great to see you Wednesday. Christine, I'll see you even sooner. I'll see you on Tuesday. I will see you on Tuesday. Thanks so much for having me and so great to see Richard and Harry and what heck will we get at first I was like, oh it's only gonna be apple stuff and then Friday happened and I was like, oh okay I think you're going to want to be here Tuesday for MacB klyreak because wee Jason Snell is out, but we got John Gruber to fill in. And I think John Hall . John's gonna have some great takes and some great takes. It's gonna be very, I've never had them on a show before. I'm really looking forward to it. So yeah, that'll be fun . Talk about a get, my friend. My goodness. talk all about Markdown. Yes, the inventor of Markdown. You're right. And actually Paul Therat is writing a book about who lives in Markdown. Crazy. All right, maybe Gruber thought The Rat would be on the show and he wanted to talk to him . Anyway, thank you all for being here. 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