Second Hand eBay Challenge Round Two

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Right now, get one of nine legendary cups when you order the FF World Cup meal only at McDonald's at participating in McDonald's only for a limited time while supplies last, All rights reserved, copyright twenty twenty six, McDonalds at the FIFA World Cup, twenty twenty six This episode of the TFo Football podcast is sponsored by Boss, businesswar provider for the US men's National soccer team Long before kickoff, the performance has already begun. 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Wear your passion your way and be your own boss at boss. com or at your nearest boss store Hello and welcome to the TFO Football podcast. I'm Joe Devine and I'm deliriously happy. To be joined by John Mcenzie. Hello, Heybody, how are you? Yeah, good thanks. Fantastic Kay Kineaxs also here Sorting a lovely England jersey. Yes. I think two thousand four Euros A kit. Yes. lovevely kit I can see like Emil Hesky wearing that shirt. I just recall. And Peter Crouch. this is the Wayne Rooney brereakthrough tournament. This is the kit They were against Croatia. Right? I think they won the game for two actually. Did they? I think it was four two. Yeah, and Rooney was fantastic and that's when I kind of fell in love with the Englland teams the first time. so yeah. How about that alsoso delighted to be joined by JJ Bol. Hello, Hey buddy,'s it going? ood. Yeah good. Yes. Yeah. Do you we didn't ask Kaya how he was. How were you Kaya? I'm a little freaked out seeing you In such a sort of what we've done the watch along and you've been stressed and properly fan involved and I've been Well I'm writhing with joy now. There you go. anyway. Now I would tell listeners we're recording this in the immediate aftermath of the England Croatia game for two. I believe they're calling it a statement victory for the eras for the ages. I think that's what they're saying any. I'm not sure. I'm not totally in touch with the zeitgeist, as I think everyone listening will already know We just watched that game for our live W along and a quick reminder incidentally, we're having our first day off of the tournament tomorrow. so no coverage from us tomorrow. You can expect your next podcast, your next live watch along on Friday for all the games that are taking place there What are we going to talk about on tonight's podcast? Well, of course, we're going to start with England, Croatia. I'm going to break down that game a little bit. We're going to play A Rndo if we ever get past talking about England and Croatia. It's possible that will take up the whole. Leonel Messi, of course, scored a hat trick for Argentina last night. We talk about that very exciting. Portugal held to a one all draw against DR Congo earlier in the day, but who can remember earlier in the day before England Cro. Did the world exist before Kya? I'm not so sure that it did? We have our second installment of our second handand eBay challenge. I don't know, I mean if it's possible for anyone glory of that Manchester United chess set, but we'll find out today there's a different category as well. So look forward to that. And a bit later on we'll check in on Points of Bad, where things are starting to move Things are moving there. There you go. That's it did I miss anything, prodroucer Ryan? Doesn't sound like it. Well, later on, someone will add music to this pause Yes, where else to begin of course, than with England four to Croatia. well England were twice pegged back but managed to win for two against Croatia. Thomas Tukell's first World Cup game as a manager saw two goals from Harry Caine, plus goals from Jude Bellingham and Marcus Rushford to secure victory in Dallas, Texas, the USA. K Is this a statement when, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But is this an example of maybe one example of a plan working? Yeah, I think Thomas Tule has a right to feel very vindicated this evening. There was suchuch a negative reaction to the England squad when it announced. And I think the biggest bone of contention beyond probably the full back positions was decision to pick Nonny Mada A K over Cole Palmer and Phil Foden and I think we've seen tonight why Michol Mressa. We've been talking about England as the arrsenal of the World Cup and it's got into my head. Why Thomas only be one good manager. Yeah. They all blend into one for me. It's the Red Kids. but Why Thomas Tule has chosen the squad he's chosen and we saw it tonight. It works really well for England with Harry Kanaine dropping in those deeper positions. It's what he's done at Bi Munich this season with Droping into those deeper areas to have Michael Lisa and L Diaz running behind alongside him. and they've been really prolific and Kaine's been really prolific and The England squad is engineered to try to get the best out of their best player who is Harry Kaine. and as someone like Madao who has the pace to run in behind and time and time again did that in the first half and early in the second half, we saw exactly what Thomas Tuchal wants to do. Someone like a Cole Palmer or Phil Fordden probably wouldn't have been able to do that. and in years gone by, it's been a case of get as many good players on the plane as you can for England This time it does feel like there's an obvious game plan and we saw that tonight and it works really well for the most part. Yeah I thought in fact it's worth you know you mentioned Madoke there, who was a player that perhaps there was some surprise that he was mayaybe not just selected, but was edging out various other players, Jared Bowen, someone who may have felt sort of miss out. He started tonight's game. He was involved on the side where many overloads took place. A lot of England's attacks came from down that side. So well done to him and well done to the whole team, huh Yeah there you go. Anyway, John, I wanted to ask you what you think the differences are between this England team that we saw tonight under Thomas Tull and previous England teams under Gareth Southgate. What do you think? That's a good question. I think it's very clear from the game tonight that this is modern football and when I say modern, like As in the last few seasons, you can see the way that the Premier League sides play being acted out by this by this team and Thomas tookool. What do you mean by that So yeah, I guess in the past with Southgate it' felt a little bit more like a possession control team where the idea has been don't give too much away, makeake sure you retain possession of the ball, control the game and eventually the goals will come. where it came from like you know England's research of previous tournament winners and what they thought what they saw was working for France, other other teams right? Yeah. And that was I guess it was the meta that was working in the domestic game as well and because So many of the players that England have are operating in that level playing in that way. it makes sense to do that to an extent Um Whether or not they managed to recreate that kind of football successfully there' another conversation. But I think when you talk about the game tonight, it's very clear that we were talking about a very different approach, much more direct. There's much less attempt to generate territorial advantage so possess the ball high up the pitch and squeeze the opponent back into their own third, a lot of attention on trying to draw the opponents forward and generate space and danger in those sorts of scenarios, which you know it's the way that the game is going and so it was quite interesting to see how I took a managage to do that. Yeah. o. JJ there was a lot of talk about England before the tournament being Maybe an impressive set piece team, right? We sat here all day we spent comparing them to Mkol Lretta's arsenal and being strong from set pieces. of course, England scored from a second go at a penalty, scored from a corner as well. But they did also show some you positive chance creation in open play as well. Do you think they show that maybe they can be strong in both areas throughout the tournament Yes, I think they can do that. Yeah. I think they played some nice football. very direct I thought what was going to happen. Well, in the pre match analysis, Not only did I think Tracy were going to have different players than than they actually played with D don't know how manage that. But also I thought England would push them back and have them controlled, but that's because that's what they did before Yeah. And what too cool I they can do is like different things and different times against different opponents And in this one I think he realized maybe it' be every single game, he realized what you do is you You trying to track them into pressing and youre trying to use third man runs and like a backp to push it forward. you go over the top, you put men in behind and you use your physicality and like the speed and the just like like these Plers are explosive get behind and cause them damage and that works really well. But of course, if you do that all the time Then you end up losing the ball. they may not be so much so muchs control. So changed up a little bit from quarter to quarter. I'm going start call the quarters. Yeah. Listen you know what we've done it just as an ease of description about four times now while we're watching the games. and there's a resistance every time, but like I don't see how you resist. I think you have to call them quarters. I think they've done it to us. Given that there's like a clear differentiation before and afterwards, or at least there has been in many of the games. Yeah, it feels reasonable for us at this stage to in simply descriptive terms describe them as quarters. Everyone knows what I mean But anyway, you get to have a chat with their coach and you can tell them a couple of things to try whether mean obviously have their like a plan for the game at the start. And then they can change that as things go on. But yeah, I thought England Good That's good. That's good. John, you came back you watched the game in the tactics cupboard and then you know, joined us various times throughout. You did make a point about England's third goal. Yeah, join me to do some analysis Yeah. Jo join a head over to the board. And for people who are just listening to this John's going to do his best to describe what he's showing as well people watching this on YouTube, you'll be able to see John at the big tactics board as well. The third goal was the goal that was scored by Jude Bellingham. It was the goal that came from that overload on the right hand side with him and Maduke, right? And this was right at the beginning of the second half as well. And I think there were some tweaks that were made by Tule and the team in order to make this kind of thing work It all comes down to tensions. That's the word I keep using again and again and again in these streams. but what I thought they did really well England in the beginning of the second half through the third quarter, I suppose start generating tensions for the Croatia team to have to solve. and it's happening in a number of different areas. So do you want to describe tensions again? I know we've done for a lot of people throughout the last days, but for new list. Yeah. So when I'm saying tensions, what I'm indicating is that what you want to do to the opponent when they're in the defensive situation is to pose them dilemmas. like do I go with this player or do I go with that player Do I cover this zone or can I step out of this zone? Kind of like when Alan Shera talks about asking questions of the opponent, right? the same kind of thing. Exactly. It's all about that. And I think there's a few areas where we can see that happening on the pitch. So we've got Croatia with a front three here. What we're seeing England do is split their centre backs wide and then have Anderson dropping in, maybe Rice also. This is creating a dilemma for this front three. Do we ori ourselves around the centre backacks on the outside and then go twoV one in the middle or do we then stay narrow? And then what we're doing was we're allowing access to those those center backacks,? That's a bit like the same kind of tension that's created when a fullse sine player drops deep and then the centre backack has the choice, do I push up and push on them or do I stay deep and leave them with space, right? Yeah, exactly. So this is about overloading Op out space for England to progress through the middle no, so we'll stay narrow, but that then gives you time and space for your centre backacks to have the ball. But I thought the really interesting area is the full backack area. So we've got O'Reilly and James as the full backs. and in the first half, I think they stayed a little bit further forward, but what we started seeing, I think in the second half was them sitting a little bit deeper closer to the centre backs and this poses now tensions for the Wingmaxs for Croatia. So this idea of if you're wanting your wing backs to make sure you're covering the wide players for England, then you're giving the full backs free space. If those fullbs are quite high up, do you then just step your wing backacks up into the full backs to cover them? And then what you're doing is you're leaving yourself with a three D three at the back or with canane dropping off and Bellingham running in. And this is what we saw with the third goal. It was using this sort of tension, getting The England players to drop in, pull their players with them in a one v one scenario and then we had Anderson in this area receiving the ball, which is over here. That's in the sort of defensive midfield area, right? That's right. So yeah yeah, just inside of where James is in the full back position. So he can lay the ball into Anderson and you can see him then finding the channel ball England players have dropped in, but then they can run into that space and it really That was that a beautiful Anderson pass as well, right It was a one touch pass but it was really fantastic way of releasing England along the right hand side. Yeah. so I've got the the slides here just to show what's happening just because it's a bit easier to see than just on the tactics board. But here we can see the England back line, the full backs a little bit deeper and you can see here the wing back having to step up in order to put pressure on the full back. Here's Anderson who's going to play the ball long. but you can see as well over here, you've got both Maduke and Bellingham Starting deeper, having pulled their markers forward Yeah and then changing that direction and running into the channel. And just for audio listeners, what we're seeing here with Madu and Bellingham is that they're inside England's half. they've brought those defenders forwards and they're creating space in behind that they can exploit immediately afterwards. And two very fast players also' worth. Yeah, exactly. So then all that needs to happen is the ball comes inside to Anderson, you can find the channel And then you're in this sort of scenario here where actually the ball goes towards Madawki, tries to take it down, but doesn't actually manage and it goes through to Bellingham. And at this point, the Croatian defense actually make a mistake because we can see we've got two players here Vuskvich and I actually don't know who this is because it's too pixelated. But essentially what happens is that one player this is what I think should happen I think that the deeper player should cover Bellingham because he's closer to the goal So he should make that run recovering, get in front of him and stop him getting to the goal. and then the defender behind should then track with Madue inside. But actually what ends up happening is the opposite, actually I thought I had a slide in there and I've not included it but the player who able to cut off Bellingham doesn't go and goes inside with Madue and that means that the defender tracking Bellingham isn't actually able to catch him up And as such then that space in front of him opens up. Still lots to do though. a nice finish nice finish across the face of the goal. Yeah. abbsolutely. And again, justifying tokle selections because he's got these players who can run in behind. Why is Jude Bellingham included in this squad rather than Morgan Roders? Well because he is That player who is going to make the most of the space in behind Yeah and is, you know, he's a really good runner and he's going to be able to because you can see here Harry Kane much deeper, right? He Yes again, he can drop off, create those tensions. If he drops off this as you say, like as a folstein of the center backs follow him. if they do, then that's that space there which which Bellingham can find as well. So I thought this was a goal which really encapsulated what England were about. I think in the second half They just recognize here's the weaknesses that Croatia have. If we can pull their wing backs forward, we can really get their back three, even go one v one against their back three and they don't have the physical capacity to actually match us in those running battles. Yeah. And Thankks, John. And J, you think the tensions that are being created there by Thomas Dle, those are purposeful,? You mentioned when we were watching the game that there different tempo in the various different quarters. It seemed to you that there were periods of the game where England were trying to play very quickly, other periods where they were taking a break, playing it more slowly. Do you think the tensions that John's talking about being created here are purposeful? Yes And also like you can't just do the the same thing over and over and again all the time because then the other team knows what you're doing. So you change it up to help give you a bit of control and to vary what you're doing because then you can surprise them with these they like Johnson Like you know, you can have different opinions what you should do different places. I I don't know, but like the deeper one going when he didn't, as John's example Perhaps another if they've been doing it constantly the same time then they would have done it in a different way the way they' defended. Does that make sense? Does. I feel like my language has gone into night mode. What's happened is England have won a game by scoring four twelve I'm just teasing you. teasing you. It's funny every time I say it now because you tell me that you don't care. I think in the past what you would do is you would lean on that more, but you're being nice at the start of this tournament And you've not lent into the nice guy. What happens is as you age, I think you learn to be kinder That's true. Anway, think I think there's a good jumping off point here though in terms. I want to come I do want to come back to England. Can you say that thought? Well, we have a quick break. I'm glad that this isn't the last time we'll talk about England you don't We're going to be talking about England tomorrow as well our day off And the next day and the next day. It's a statement victory. Let's have a quick Advertisement break, when we come back, we willll play arondo, we will play A Rndo, which of course you know is England related guys, It's England related. And then we'll carry on talking about England. Yeah. just as what's coming up. As a reminder, we will be talking about Argentina and Leo Messi. We'll also be talking if we have time about Portugal, Ronaldo, Dar Congo There's still stuff to come, but of course, it's very, very important to talk about England. Here's a break Queen Carvania stood halo. Morning sun An army hung on her every word. My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvana. 'twas a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight, we feast An offer you can feast on. seell your car today on Carmana. Pick up fees, manly. Hey, Pablo Torere here. As a sports journalist, I've covered global sports for many years now. And there is one thing that I can promise you Nothing compares to the World Cup And this time it is even better thanks to McDonald's, You have the chance to take home one of nine legendary cups when you order the FIFA World Cup meal The cups feature some of the biggest legends football, like David Beckham, Teron Ree and Ronaldinio, Christian Palisk Laminia Mal and Alfonso Davies. Right now, get one of nine Legendary cups when you order the FF World Cup meal only at McDonald's participating McDonald's only for limited time, while supplies last, All rights reserved, copyright twenty twenty six. McDonalds at the FIFA World Cup, twenty twenty six This is Cat and Nat from Cat and Nat Unfiltered, and this episode is sponsored by Michaels, your destination for all things birthday parties. If you've ever planned a birthday celebration, you know it goes from cute idea to full on chaos real fast. The party shop at Michaels makes life easier with over forty thousand five hundred partarty supplies in sixty plus themes like Bluey, Rdeo, soccer, rainbow, and more. Starting at just ninety nine cents. You can shop same day delivery or order online for pickup in store and they even do free helium inflation on Sack Balloon styles. Michael's everything to celebrate anything, visit Michael's in store or shop online Now Yeah, we all love that break and we loved how producer Ryan timecoded the break for reasons later. Oh look at that. What a superb worker. A superb off camera worker now Let's play a little Rndo. Who wants to play a Rndo? Hands up? I do. Yeah, justust Ky. greatreat. Well, I think I like playing the Rndo. Yeah, hands up. Yes. Yeah, John. No you'll be playing as well, my friend. You'll be playing as well now. let me introduce listeners at home to the Rondo. Here's what the Rndo is. I ask a question that has multiple correct answers and we go around a little. multiple incorrect answers I mean, infinitely multiple incorrect answers. I guess so yeah. I mean Well, no, because like you could you could answer tree Yeah, but it's an if the includes The correct answer is then can't be infinite Is that the c? No, that's how math works. Yeah That's not how math works It's actually you can take ele eleven things out off infiniteness and still have infinitness. what's it called the Hilbert Hotel paradox or something. Mathematicians in the live chat will tell you that that is true. Now here's the Rndo today. We go around in a circle, we give correct answers. If we give incorrect answers, you are immediately ejected from the Rndo If you dither or dilly dally or take too long an amount of time that I dislike, I will eject you from the Rndo myself. ejecting a strong language show. And the final person standing is named Rondo Del Ry. I know it's wrong. I know that it's wrong. Okay now Here's the Rondo category today. We won't please The starting eleven' just the starting elevens For Croatia two, won England in the twenty eighteen World Cup semifinal. That's Croatia two, won England in the twenty eighteen World Cup final. Of course, there are twenty two correct answers. Starting eleven. And it's just the starting elevens. I don't want to hear anything No, sorry, that was to make hard actually. I don't want to hear anything about the subs, okay? So that could be tricky for you guys now John, I'm going to start with me anyway. I will say Lua Modrich. Lua Modrich, of course was there, Kaya. Jordan Pickford. Jordan Pickford W there. Harrryicane. Harricane was there yeah. Kir and Tripia scored in that game. Kir and triripia. is there Karl Walker. Karl Walker? also there? JJ back to you. I know all the players. I know you do. Brozovich. Brozovich Yeah, Masla Brozovich was there. Nice for moving over to Croatia. Mad respect for that Um COVid chch. COVid chch Once Not a starter in the game. Not a starter in the game. I'm so sorry, John, but you didn't want to play anyway, so you got your wish. S of your did himself earlier in the tournament. You rejected. Can I over to you? Joon Stones. Jhn Stones, of course was there JJ. Has Paris been said yet? Well, I mean, if I told you that I'd be breaking the rules of the game. Oh, I'm seeing him He's there. Yeah. cononggratulations Harry Maguire Harry Mcuire is there DJ, Krammer rich. Krammer rich Gramma Rich I imagine started on the bench How about that now? Well you know what? S dis satisfying. You did very well though. I thought you did very wellating I'm not patrinating you. It's okay sometimes for people friends to tell each other that they're proud of each other. okay? It's all about learning me.' proud of me. I'm not proud of you. That's the difference. Now Kayia, I'll be very proud of you, my England buddy, if you can name one more correct answer. an England one or a Croatia one Eng. I'd like an England player. young. Ashley Young was of course, there well done, Ka. was Eric D left window. Eric Die didn't start the game. Did't start No. The other names you could have had By Ally Jordan Henderson, Jesse Lingard, Rahim Sterling. and then most of the Croatia teams still available Dian Lovrin, Manzukich, Raketic, Rebich, Strinich, Sebass, Vida, and Versalkco. Vidaalo I should have said. Well, there you go. Thanks for playing the Rndo. Thanks for participating. That was a good one. I that one. I did like that one was rubbish G good news. good news. Now. John, you were about to pick up on an excellent point about England. I've forgotten what it was. I can't wait to hear it. What were talking about? you were talking about tempo shift and I thought that England maybe tempo shifted too far in the wrong direction at times maybe not tempo shifted, but I think they sunk into low blocks at times that probably I mean, for the in the first half at the end of the first half, obviously gave roato second equalizer. Yes. They were too deep. Yeah, I think so. And there was, you know before you started crowing about it being a statement victory, you were quite nervous because I think England did the same thing there. Mbe maybe questions with Tkless game management at the end because it felt as though England sort of sunk into a into into a flat five at the back kept Kane on the pitch, I think in those sorts of scenarios. and what we were saying is that it just allowed Croatia to ease a bit of pressure onto them because they could sling balls into the box and then win the second balls when they came out because England were too compact. It was interesting that you talk about game management, I found interesting because there was that flurry of intense England attacking in the third quarter, the first half of the second half But then the overall way that the game felt managed seemed to mirror the first half in the second half. So they didn't score from those opportunities like they had done in the first half. but then they still continued they sat back anyway and they slowed down anyway. almost as though the game plan just continued regardless of what the score was. Yeah. and you know, I think in other games against better teams that's that willll be something that I'm keeping an eye out for is o Are they going to be too Cervative in those moments in a way that allows the opponent to actually get a foothold. Yeah. And one of the thing that you'll be keeping an eye out for, you gave us a bit of a hot take during the game. I loved it because John started it by saying, I'm going to say this now It was about Jordan Pickford. What was it? Yeah, I was I pondered It wasn't really a hot I mean, it was a hot take, but I'd forgotten that I was on the live stream and then you've immediately clipped up. so Okay I'll be cancellled tomorrow, I expect. So it was nice knowing you I'm also not proud of you Um Yeah, I was I was cons I was thinking about Pickford and the way that he's been used by England. And you know, we talked to the beginning about how this England is quite different from Garth Southgates, England. Yeah. and Jordan Pickford played in that. in that team and you know, that Arguably is a playstyle that suits Pickford better if we're talking about actually absorbing pressure and trying to bait presses forward and play through them, there's going to be more of a requirement for him to do some of the build upp stuff. And you know, he's not a terrible buildup passer, but I think that he is that you know, he can pull these passes off. But I do think that you're putting yourself under pressure if you're expecting him to be clean all the time in those in that sort of build upp those build upp situations. and there's a few examples tonight of him either playing the ball out into touch or we talked about it as empathy on the passing, like thinking about how easy is this going to be for my teammate to receive it. You playing it to their strong foot, you playing at the right pace, that they can receive it well. And sometimes that can be a little bit lacking. I kind of interested to see if there's maybe a pickfot error in one of the games in this World Cup. But also I think for the shot stopping too, like when they' s if England they' going to sink deeper and deeper and allow chances from the edge of the box, like we saw with the Martin Baterina goal, I think again, you're putting him into a situation wheres it's sort of emphasizing one of his weaknesses as well. So interested to see how that plays. I do wonder if there's a world in which manan city Don't sign on a Rima. towards the end of the transfer window and stick with what probably was their initial plan to go maybe. But if they stick with their initial plan to go with James Trafford as their number one throughout the season, then may be We're having a discussion about the England golding position for the first time in about a decade because it does feel like someomeone like a trafford given what's shown. I mean he's not done at the top level for a big team yet but it feels maybe more suited to that. And maybe if he had a year playing at City regularly under his belt or any team regularly, That might have been a different conversation. Yeah. and James Trafford won all of the tournaments that he was gold keeping in this season. So to penalties to Yeah, that'll be interesting. he's being they're being he's being talked about as a potential move away in this su in the summer. So maybe He will become an England conversation the next in the next season. so Okay Kya, one last point on England here. in what is an incredibly unsurprising take given that he's a midfielder that will likely command over a hundred million pounds of a transfer fee this summer. you thought Ellot Anderson was brilliant. I thought it was fantastic. That one hundred million pound feet it's interesting you mention that because when The stories of those came out that forests had rejected cities North of a hundred million pound bid for him. a lot of the response was, what is Ellot Anderson? is he really worth one hundred million pounds. And I think There's aspects to how that transfer fee has sort of been reached and there's a bit of states showmanship from Nottingham Forest who want to get an English record transfer fee. and there's also an element of middle class teams in the Premier League now are so wealthy because there's so much money in the Premier League they can kind of set an asking price and stick to it. We've seen it with on numerous occasions with Ceda, for example, West Ham when Deck and Rice. made the move to Arsenal, but There's also a real value now for midfielders who can do a bit of everything and maybe not so much. So if I was to ask you what Elliot Anderson was. you wouldn't sort of put him in one box he can do lots of things and be the six, be the eight contribute offensively as John was outlining earlier with those kind of quick passes, but he's also fantastic winning the ballback. I think he was in the ninety plus percentiles for both progression sorry progressive passes and possession regain. So when it comes to that, he's a player who can do the role of two or three players as one person and that is really, really valuable Data analystic clubs are sort of spotting those kind of things. I mean, you don't need a big big scouting department to find Ellie and Anders in the Premier League this season, but it drives the value of the player up and there was so much consternation about that position in thengl the midfield next to Decklan Rice Ellie Anderson came in at the start of this season. We forget that he's kind of only been in the England team for less than a year Yeah and he's made that position his own so quickly and formed a partnership with Rice so effectively play so well into the kind of game plan that we've already outlined Thomas Tual wants to play the quick passing forward the higher press, the energy in midfield. He's perfect for what England want to do. and he's kind of if he goes to Manchester City or Manchester United, he's perfect for those kind of teams as well. So it's going to be really interesting to see how he develops and he's one of those players we're all sweating when Harry Caine went down injured towards the end of the game. It turned out was more sensitive than A you actually sweating mean I was this shirt does not hide sweat. but I think Ellie Anderson getting injured would arguably be as tragic for England to lose a player of that importance is. them in cottonwool. Definitely. Absolutely. Okay From a statement victory to a statement hatrick. Yeah. We like that because of course, last night, Leonel Messi against Algeria scoring three goals did so to become the joint highest all time world cup goals scorer alongside Murislav Closer with sixteen goals and Bapee's goals against Senegal put him on fourteen too. So at the time we recorded our podcast yesterday, he had eclipsed Messi That did not last for very long. Having said that, for both of those reasons it' now extremely likely that we will end this World Cup with a fresh anew. , you know and outright well time goals closer Frings couldn't beoser. Frings couldn't be closer. I think it might could be Jude Bellingham by the end of the tournament, couldn't it? How about that? There we go. Now Messi's goals were great, JJ. They were fantastic. Yes.. I mean he is the best to ever have existed Even his first touch For the first goal, which is a pinger into the top corner going against the way I think any normal person would shoot it. They'd go to the other end. I think they'd curl it with the left foot into the top left or on top right. The goalkeepers should probably do better. He a bit of a nightmare to be honest. But it's not take it away from Messi. but his first the ball is pinged into to Messi first he kills it dead and then passes inside before he receives it again to hit it That's something that only certain players can do doesn doesn't even notice it. You pointed out the way that when he runs through for the tapping is very clever because Everyone thinks he's going their way, even though he just passes it into an empty net. Yeah thirird one, How' did you go the thirding again? remember it was from outside the box again. Another one drills it in the bottom left. Yeah. ye. he makes football fun. He's just the best. I mean it I think it's an incredible It's a privilege to watch him like tourent. Yeah I think that's like the most key point as it relates to Messi. and also thinking about The World Cup in twenty twenty two, everyone was talking about how it would be the last World Cup for Ronaldo and for Messi on the evidence of today, mayaybe it should have been the last World Cup for one of those players.ap not the other. But to see Messi sccorer Hatrick and not just S sccore Hatrick, with Score Hatrick like that in the opening game of a World Cup? We didn't even think that he would perform at it's amazing Yeah. I wish he never retires. No, well, that's the thing. There's a problem. There's there's a timeline on them and it runs out God, he's the best. He's the best. me and Ryan werere discussing this before P produce Ryan, we were discussing how even for the goal that was ruled off side, when he scores it, he's the only person in the stadium who knows that he's offs side because his peripheral vision is so good. He's been able to look across the line at the same time as Striking the ball into the net. he's he's a freak and you spoke about twenty twenty two World Cup, whether it was the last one. I remember in twenty eighteen when when Argentina lost to France in the round of sixteen, I think it was quite early in the tournent. Lots of people were saying, well this is it for Messies. he's never going to be able to compete. And I also wonder if for him at his age twenty thirty, Portugal, Spain and Morocco, he's going to be there. I wouldn't put it past him. but I wonder. Playing in the MLS now we're still, you know getting ridiculous numbers I wonder if playing in the league which is a little bit slower, a little bit less pasty and a little bit l demanding maybe. I wonder if that's playing into his advantage now where he's a bit fresher coming to this tournament. He's not been as involved for Argentina in the qualifying as well. and he's arrived looking pretty fresh dominating the open game of World Cups, scring a Hatrick and you know setetting all those records, I think that he still looks capable even he'll be thirty nine very soon.. He still looks very capable of someone who could be a real big fixure in this tourament. Yeah for sure. John, you noticed something a little bit different about Argentina or something that you think might set them apart from some of the other big teams? Yeah, we spent some time doing some video analysis of this, which no doubt will be clipped up. so worth going to have a watch of that because all the visualization will be there, but that' will be on thethletic FFC YouTube channel.'ight We talked a lot about how a lot of the big teams in this tournament are setting up to kind of they're facing a lot of mid bllocks seem to be wanting to until England and I really push the envelope in terms of the out possession side of the game. And so we're seeing a lot of mid bllocks which require being broken down. We've seen low blocks as well, but mid blocks especially And a lot of the big teams when they do that, they often are trying to pull those we talked about it as pulling those defensive structures apart. when they play against the mid When they play against those midbocks. Yeah. And they do that by creating these tensions and trying to force players to move, creating space that can then be exploited Yeah. Whereas what if you watch the Argentina game, what they're doing is really quite different there They're looking to overload, particularly in channels in front of the ball carrier and then setting themselves up to potentially be ready for really quick tempo shifts where they bounce the ball through and almost punch through the oppositition' defensive structure. And if they do that well, they can get through. If not, they can they can draw a lot of the opponents' players towards them, collapse those blocks down and then if you have really good small space players, really good technical players, you can find ways through that pressure and then into free players outside of those scenarios. So you talked about it as being a very South American style of play Well, I wondered like I don't want to project that onto it personally because I talked about that as the possible stereotype, right?ike we think about the way that we've all grown up reading books about how football was play is played in Brazil in the favelas or how football's played in the differences between there or the streets of Paris and how that maybe crafts players that have a sort of different sensibility. There's a temptation for me to think that the reason that Argentina play inside the block is That's a kind of cultural stle,ather than if I'm projecting. for sure. But you know at the same time, a lot of the conversation about Brazil was that Carlo Angelotti had gone there and set them up in a sort of very European style, right? with what we were talking about before with big wide open structures and trying to pull opponents apart in that way. And I think the big conversation about that Brazil team going into the rest of the tournament be Is that a playstyle that suits the profiles of players that they've got in that squad? Yeah. The problem I think is is that Yes, I agree probablyrobably isn't the best way of playing with those players, but they don't I don't think they have the profile of players to play in that more South American style as well. So they they're almost caught between two different play styles without the perfect players to fit in the squad there. Yeah. But that will be an ongoing conversation. And yeah, it's, you know, it's always easy to over narrate these things, but I think as a general rule, you can make that that distinction between the more South American play styles which is about getting the players together, getting them to associate with one another, use the skill sets that they've developed offtten playing in small spaces when they've grown up and developed and trying to use that as a way of generating ball progression through a block At the same time, you know, there's pros and cons to both sides, as we've said, sometometimes when you're trying to pull blocks apart with these with these wider open structures, you end up with what we saw with the Netherlands, which is they're not actually creating enough tension to cause the opponent any problem. You need to be good to play in these big in these sort of I guess more complex positional structures. But if you're playing a little bit closer together, as you said before, that's going to require a skill set of player that you know, if you don't have the requisite ability to get out of small spaces, you can get hurt as well. And if you collapse your in possession structure down, that will have a knock on impact if you lose the ball on your defensive structure as well. You need a Bellingham or an Elliot Anderson or Delan R Dl to play to play in that style, of course Let's have a quick break. but when we come back, we'll talk briefly about Ronaldo and Portugal in their one or draw against Do Congo. and then we're going to revisit the second handand challenge. That I'm very excited about that. Plus a little bit of points are bad. and then maybe we'll talk about England for another hour. that. I don't know. We'll be back back Hey, Pablo Torere here. As a sports journalist, I've covered global sports for many years now. 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Now, by contrast to what we were just talking about with Leonel Messi, Cristiana Ronaldo ass Wld Cup got off to an underwhelming start as Portugal drew with DR Congo despite taking an early lead thanks to Jo Nevves thanks to A Joel Ne's header. That's what I should have said. Now the Democratic Republic of Congo equalized deep into stoppage time with Yan Wiser Now let me ask you a question about this Kaya. With other you know high profile openers Messy in Bapee, Hoand Kane, you know lots of players scoring, lots of players that were afraid might have been injured, but it turns out they weren't injured. They just they took a ball in the midriff. Yeah. And this is kind of a narrative question. So I'm al always sorry for asking it because it's the first game and who knows what Ronaldo will do for the rest of the tournament. But It's a conversation we had at the last major tournament. It's a conversation I expect that we will continue to have Yeah Do you think he holds back a talented Portuguese side? Was there evidence of that today? or is this just a kind of narrative that I'm projecting Yes and no. Okay So in the warm up games to this. There's been clips d doing the rounds of Ronaldo missing chances and people are saying he's washed and that he's done That's probably too simplistic in itself, and Roberta Martinez, when he's asked about these decisions to continue playing Christiana Ronaldo in games. It'ss his response is well Ronaldo scoring goals for Portugal, score quite a few goals in the qualification process And you know, he's still scoring goals in Saudi Arabia. And I think people say, well, that's the reason and certainly that's the justification for picking him Today watching the game, it almost felt like at times, the Portuguese team were when it came to trying to break down that Low block that Dial Congo were employing. it kind of felt like every time they had the chance, they were kind of looking for Ronaldo, every cross was sort of towards him Every pass was going in his direction. mayaybe that wasn't always the best option. And there were a couple of chances that he had. There was one where the ball was played slightly behind him and if he'd left it to go to Bruno Fernandz Bune Ferandz you'd expect would probably have scored. I think was really interesting Yeah because the reaction to that is what interested me the most. I don't know if you guys saw it Bruner Fernandez did the thing he does to every Manchester United player where they don't leave the ball for him, which was pointing at his feet. at the space that he had and complain that he was in a better position. And I don't think he does that to Ronaldo four years ago. I don't remember seeing that at the last World Cup. I feel like that is That's and again, maybe this is projection on my part, but that feels like something of a sea change. He's on he's on a tim scale now, Bruneo Fernanders, right? And he he's gone through most of his domestic Korea probablyro not winning as much as he should have done And he's you know potentially going into a world cup where they have an incredibly strong squad. and it could be being sabotaged somewhat by a teammate. And you know it's not even just that. I think that in that scenario, I think what you would expect the striker to do most times is make the sacrificial run where you're dragging the defender deeper to open out the space for the player behind you And instead, you know, he sort of almost chops down on the ball to try and get his his his foot around it. And yeah, I mean that's I think that's the big question with with Portugal is how much is are these sorts of situations going to negatively impact the team? And there was these conversations in the last World Cup as well when Ronaldo, I mean, you spoke about the Euros being the last major tournament but even theajor tournament before that Should Ronaldo be playing forortugal? Is he hold them back and it's the sort of the never ending debate that is going on around the Portuguese national team And there was one game where he didn't play and I think Gonalo Ramos played up front instead and they beat Switzerland six one. That's obviously very limited evidence. But it would be interesting just to see in this World Cup if there's a game that Portugal do play without. I don't expect this to happen at all, but it'd be interesting to see. Portuguese team is filled with so much attacking talent and really genuinely capable of winning the tournament It's interesting. I mean Will Roberto Martinez drop him? I can't see it I know? Yeah. while these kind of performances continue to persist, there's always going to be that question of Is he the right guy? Will Ports do better without him? And I think they're kind of fair questionions at this point I filmed something recently that released on the Athletic FC YouTube channel. I think the headline is like the top You know, the best twenty players of all time And I was joined by a panel of athletic journalists to talk through them. countountdown from twenty to one. Ollie Kay was one of the journalists that was there And all of the athletic journists, their aggregate ranking for Ronaldo had put him at fifth. Which I think when we were talking about planning the video, we talked about the idea that younger audiences who watch this might not understand why he's not in the top two. I think people would come to accept perhaps that, okay, well there are some people out there that believe that he's better than Leonel Messy. I think at the very least those people might expect to see him in the top two. And we talked about how to kind of communicate why that wasn't the case. I mean you probably don't need to guess the three players at weelf in the list were Pelle, Marana Micarina and Micamarina and Johan Croiff. But I'llase say something which I remember really stuck with me because I think I think it's a perfect description Ronaldo. which is that for Ollie Kay He's the he's the greatest non genius football player ever And I know that that kind of leans a little into that stereotype that Messy was kind of born as this gifted player who you know came out of the womb able to play football in the way that he does, which isn't true, right? Like the notion that he doesn't train, that he doesn't put effort in, that's not a real thing. So this is a huge simplification. But the inverse of that is that Ronaldo has kind of built everything that he had Wing that was phenomenal at his peak. that there was something There was something incredible about that level of craft I feel like that has waned, like the drop off is far steeper in Ronaldo's case than it has been in Messi's case. But What's your opinion about this year? Do you think that he should be left out of the Portugal squad? Do you think he should be still playing? Do you think he's the greatest non genius football player of all time Yeah it always strikes me as like a U like a Playsttation player so he does all the tricks, but you can tell he's about to having to load the trick into his brain to then do it. Right. Whereas Messi just does things that come from the universe. just Mess is connected to everything around them all at once. Ronalda has learned how to do that. likeike one of them is a natural artist The other has learned how to be an artist and doing it really well, but it's never as authentic as the person who naturally gets it and u Yeah, obviously like can like Obviously he's amazing. There's no point addviously.. He also will bring like genuine star like star quality to the team that people will respect him, whether it's waning now or not. But also leadership, these things are important And' like the squad dynamics as well, right? Like we know that there are other Portuguese players in that squad that that will adore him and that you know, will want him to be in the team Yeah, there's a thing I saw Terryon Reeders analysis of it. It actually John mentioned it was the they making the sacrificial run across the defvendors. So like Oenry pointed out as like one of the best ever strikers that what he should do for the team is make a run towards the back pose because either he'll take a defender with him and free up space for someone else or the ball goes there and he gets to finish that way.. But he's maybe not playing it quite as a number nine. He's playing it's like a He knows it's built for him and it looks like they're playing for him, but it looks like they're playing for him because he's always in positions to make it about him rather than doing something for the team. likeike he knows what he knows what he's doing. If he's analyzing it, he'd be like, he should do that instead But he also knows that he is one of the most phenomenal goal scores of all time. So if he pings at the back of the net, I keep seeing ping today. If he put it in the back of the net, he'd be like, oh What a genius. Yeah, you know, it's always that. but Definitely, I can see where it holds them back. Yeah He's not a mentality. He's not the same player. Yeah, he's not quite the same player, but he will he's still scoring in a heartbeat. Yeah. So it's weird because it you're watching someone who knows his powers are quite there. He's I mean, he's still probably just as fast as he ever was. Mbe a little bit less There's a bit when he was racing for one one one cross is going to come in. you tell he's not quite there bit like What' you do with a player like that? You can't leave them out P Ramos on. he doesn't even get games of a PSG. so. So what'd you do? Well and there's also, you know, as it relates to the squad dynamic stuff as well, I watched a really interesting clip the other day of an interview with Jude Bellingham and one other player, I can't recall his teammate Jude Belling was being asked about Jordan Henderson, and he described him as the funniest guy in the squad And he talks about all of the qualities that he brings to the squad and the fact that he'll go to the manager, if there's something that you want to talk about that you know you don't want to bring up yourself or that he'll resolve a problem for you or that he's the person that brings players together. And it's those sorts of things, I think that without hearing it from players, you don't really you're not able to see watching the TV what the contribution of someone is I guess the point I'm making is all we're really talking about here is like Ronaldo's impact on the pitch We can speculate what it might be off the pitch in the squad. but't I can't imagine many more like talismanic players, you know, representing as well like pin against Dar Congo as well. So they're so deep and they're defending really well and there's just no space. But then what you need is someone who you want a fox in the box to pop up and find a goal and ye like who did C L has retired? Yeah who did Portugal have They've got one of the best ever at finding space and goals Yeah. But like it's whether he's fighting Mother nature. He's a slightly worn fox. But is he it's the thing you know, he's battling his own it's like a movie on its own. He's batling the The mother of nature itself because he's not as what he was, but the two around him is also maybe not, I don't know, it's the picture of Dorian Greay Is it I don't think so. It's just the first reference that came to my head. Yeah. Other people have young people's references like music and memes, but mine are Oscar Wild novels. Anyway, what I will say before we move on from this is that Portugal's group Group K, I believe, DR Congo, a lovely surprise result for them perhaps It wasbekistan and Colombia, the other two teams in this group. I can't recall the score line of that game. playing l Well that's why I can't recall it because it simply hasn't happened yet. I'm glad you didn't say something like that was a good game. I enjoyed. I loved watch. It really interesting.ee see how they get on, man. ye we don't know the result of that yet, the reason I bring that up is just to suggest that I think Regardless of whether Portugal dropped Ronaldo from their team or not, I do expect them to progress from the group. There we go s much, much more important Matters It's the secondhand challenge. That's right Welcome to the second handand challenge, where I have challenged John and JJ over the course of the World Cup to spend varying degrees of money that just to be clear, isn't their own money, just because we had some reaction to the first episode where people say, arere you forcing JJ and John to spend no, no, no, no, no. money is m, But it will be expensed back Yeah. So we are led to believe At least that's what they say. knows? I mean it will It's round two. now John won the first round, which was the bargain round where you spent under twenty pounds and John you won that with a magnificent Manchester United chess set, which is just out of shot on top of that on the wide Is on the wide. Oh yeah just about you can see it. There you go. The chess set fantastic JJ. you weren't here to experience round one. We all really enjoyed the Konami game that you bought as well and Al Nash did a fantastic job of showing that off But now you can see that chess, I think I'm fully in agreement and now you expect we may be onto a similar event today. Well, let's see because of course it's no one here that decides it is the live chat that decide via poll. Who wins now? John, let's begin with you. This is round two And this category is called cult hero. You had thirty pounds to spend and what you were requested to buy memorabilia connected to a cult football figure, not including Messi, no Ronaldo, no Beckhamier players. We want cult players only. o? So what have you got? and why did you buy it? Yeah, well, cult players is an interesting one, isn't it? Be like I don't know, what constitutes a cult player I went with a player who I would start a cult for Yeah don I don't know if that means that they are a cult player. all you're doing is simply convincing the audience though I think whate do be persuasive. That's going to help you in this game. I found on eBay this fantastic fantastic Ein Track Frankfurtssire Wow. But it has How's Tony Y Boasame a number on the back. That's lovely. And he was he was the reason why I love everything that I love. Really? Yeah Eer your family. Yeah. ye. I started support I started getting into football around ninety four World Cups USA ninety four. And I started supporting Leeds because the people who I was watching the World Cup with we didn't watch the World Cup because it was on in the US.ure. We played football that summer and we were every game was Brazil versus England. Right. And they were like, if you like football, then like you support Les because you know that's where I was born. That's how life is. And they were all from Leeds. said they were like, you support Les And so I started toing leads and then Tonybo arrived. And he was there for very fleeting time. In fact, I think he was he was there for this signed in one January and left the next a really random kind of period I think it was only a year a year. he wasn't there for a full season. Yeah. And At that point I was in. I was like, that's this guy is great. And he was a very you know in many respects a very modern player looking back at it. He was bit famously on the Match of the Dayss intro music for a long time with that that he clacked in against Liverpool. Yeah. So yeah, it's one of the best goals of all time. Yeah, this is my tribute to Tony Aboa. Wow. Can I say not only a terrific item, but a beautiful story to go along with it. JJ, you got some living up to do.Qy emotional. So JJ, what is what What have you bought, JJ and why It's u S your cota? Oh Join the Prostars Collector Club One my favoriteot collectibables. Is it a Bobble No No, it's just Well I would call a Corinthian, but it's a what it means to you. He's a cult player. He's the most cult of the cult players. Okay. He's one of those that's never at the league level but everyone loved JJ Kotcha. He was very fun to watch. That's true. He did a bicycle kick. He did a rainbow flick over someone's head. Right. Do again is No, it doesn't matter exactly because you all remember JJ A Cotcha. This is on JJ A Cotcha. Terrific player. It was just funny to see something so plastic come out of that bag that you were holding. Yes.. I think that was a really cool used to loads of those when I was younger.. Well I don't know if it's the same thing. they were called micro stars. I had, I don't know if it's the same thing as prostars, but There was loads of different like collectles of these small bodies and massive heads and then they sort of had their names. And then if on the base of that thing should be like some stats I think for J, there is a fact file and there's what looks like a joke, but it says, what do fans chant about JJ Y Kotcha? What do they chant about J A Kotcha J J He should win the competition. they can't read it. o. So there you go.. Well, who would you vote for, Kyra if you were voting Genuinely that does target my heartstrings is I had a whole micro dome of micro stars. I have them in my dad's sort of basement somewhere but place. I like that Kaya has a sweet story to go along with the thing that you b. Yeah I feel like Jesuit Cch is more cultty than Tony Aboa. Do you think so? N sure because I feel like cult If it's a bigger cult, that makes it. By definition is main street h if that makes any sense