Final Thoughts and Outro

Hello and welcome to the TFO Football podcast. I'm Joe Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by John Mackenzie. What's up? What is up? Down am right, Hry? Yeah Fine absolutely fine. Thanks, man. Also, JJ Bull bumper. Hi. hi. Now that's a good reference because at the very end of the show, we go around and we do some bumper factacts. It's foreshadowing, very exciting. And a lovely TifFo podcast debut. He's the guardans he's the head of all of the Guardiian News. Wow! That's And a lovely Tivo podcast debut, he's the Guardian's head of National newews. It's Archie Blan. Hello. Yeah, there Oh, Steve wantis to clap. Yeah. Thank you very. Let's clap a man. There we go. It's very strange doing this at the end. Yes. I like I'm time travelling. But now you're warm. Absolutely warm actually I feel like he cooled through the epode. in the middle I, when we talked about actual football stuff, think I'm gonna say I think the Rondo started that low. Yes Stick around to find that one. Stick around to find that one. Now what did Oh, Steve Hank' also here. Hey is Now. what did we discuss on today's podcast? Well, should football fans have to pay for water in a boiling hot stadium? Yes. accccording to FIFA, yes, we discuss that briefly We also discuss the development in Southampton's spying scandal and discuss the pressure that powerful dictators can place on those whose future they hold in the palm of their hands. Right, Steve. There we go. How about that? Archie gives us a fantastic financial crisis parable for Spygate, taking us back to those heady times of two thousand eight when everyone's job prospects went as shit. you remember that Do youember that? I left school that year, you know I graduated that year. Right university. Yeah. Did you get a job? No. It was great coming out of university into the financial crisis. I thought you didn't leave university until you were thirty four. I graduated as an undergrad in two thousand eight. I then did another ten years at university. Well, you know who else went to a special university J B. It's Jay. went to sppy University. That's right. Well most of my life has been the financial crisis. JJ learned some crucial spy skills that he's taught us, but he's definitely not Well, I would say I didn't so much learn those spice skills as I already had them because you must have them in order to be not as spy enrolled. as we'll discuss later, you'll see That's why they take the register in Spice school you're not supposed to say? Yeah yeah. If you say you're there, then you fail. Well that. One of the many benefits to me switching off regularly even in mid conversation with someone is that I will forget to do that. Probably one of the reasons it's helped. there you go. After two times of doing this I'm struggling to remember now whether we are saying you are or aren't asied. So in a sense it's kind ofs sort of working, isn't it We play that Rndeo. which we talked about already. and after that we talk about Manchester United making an early move in the summer window signing Atalantas Edison. Will he replace fellow Brazilian Kazamio at old Trafford, we find out. Marco Silver's left Fullam Ecuse me. I'm all het up about that. we have to talk about Fullam your body now. T. We talk about Fullam for quite some time. He seems set to go manage Ben Fica. We talk about what a lovely old job that is and JJ complains about the price of beer. daylight robbery. It is mental by I mean I'm thinking I mean it might change stuff. Can I say I went to I won't say which venue, but I went to a central London venue the other day attached to a theatre And it's the first time I've ever done this in my life where I ordered three drinks. It was twenty six pounds. And then I said to the bar person and I was like, I think that might be wrong. And he said, it's not wrong. And I went, o, okay mean one of the drinks was twelve pounds. That's the first time that's ever happened to you. It's the first time I've ever said I think that might be wrong. Yeah That's been happening. I worked in a company for a long time and I feel like I'm very used to expensive prices, but twenty six pounds for three drinks was quite It's too much. like I think We're not supposed to be able to have any fun anymore. I think that's what is meant to be happening now. What was a twelve pound drink? Wine, it was wine. Yeah it was like it was u The next wine up than what it should have been. I got swindled by my friend. I think he knew. he knew. I brought him back and I told him No that was twelve pounds. he went Oh, I didn't know. I thought H He knew. Yeah. How about that? Anyway. After another break, we talk about how incredibly good Archie is at Fantasy Premier League and how meaningless an achievement that really is. That's exciting And that's pretty much the show. I will say before we finish, there's one other thing I want to address. now John this is sort of for you, right? Here I'm reading this from the Athletic FC's terrific newsletter, which is free to subscribe to, by the way, is written by the wonderful Phil Hay I read it every day And Pil Hay writes, D writes. Throughout the twenty twenty five, twenty six season, a key match incidents panel Reviewed all of the major decisions taken by Premier League officials didid you know this Yes, we knew this. They produced some notable findings, including the fact that Arsenal might have finished four points worse off, although still in first place without incorrect calls that had gone in their favor. I think the key Match incidents panel said that they would have lost four points and dropped to eighty one still would have won or that would have changed what the end of the season looked like But John, I would like to draw your attention to something very specific, not related to the top or the bottom of the table, but indeed the middle. Now you'll remember we had a very important lunch wager, didn't we? about Everton I said they'd finished tenth thought up. You said they would finish eleventh thought below now. wereere they not ripped by PGMOL The conspiracy at the heart of the Premier League trying to make sure that I have to pay for your lunch. Everton according to this key match indicated this key match incidents panel, they would have finished tenth They would have finished out. I've been it's been stolen away from me. back with the expected goals table, which was what the expected points table, which had the much lower. So it comfortable. Do want to have a look? Yeah have a look. H have a look. And now when John has lunch, she can order Any number of drinks that will cost you about twenty eight. I can't wait to order the next level up of wine. So did anything actually change apart from tenth and eleventh in the entire to? I can't really work it out. I don't think loads no. So were there a few other teams like Bournemouth should have added four points more than they did. So that's kind of acceptable. Wemost sixickth anyway. The referee and people will say that I am biased. I'm now no longer following Bournemouth The It has to be said, it's a travesty the way the referees. accccording to this, they were the unluckiest te. But they would have finished in the same position would have finished in the same position. Yeah yeah. yeah.'s quuite interesting. nothing actually matters basically. They would have finished on equal points with Liverpool in fifth, but they still would have finished under the Mon gooldld difference. Although, you know, if those results had gone different way, then it's hard to know what the gold differenceed like, right But equally so many things. like, I always think this is like the way that like you know, people get killed by like cars driving at them driven humans all the time. But the first time someone gets killed by like an AI driven car and freaks out everyone's The points you lose to V AR just like hurt more. D f, I think it is bad as the robots do start killing us. It's probably quite bad I mean, I was all four of them unt until they thought they drove into my Granny. Yeah. Well for them of the other team that were unfortunate here, they should have added three more points. They would have finished seventh had that been the case. Granny detectivive inccreasing speed. Chelsea would have Chelsea earned four points more than they should have. They would They were like like sorry Whoops. Just start the show. E the thirteenth, by the way. thir to octo on expect. this isn't even the podcast yet Where else to begin Sorry. first line. F l I was try to get in before I began. It's staying in the podcast said he was a professional this guy. Where else to begin? than with know the cadence that won't allow an editor to cut around that. Th with Adam Crafton's tweet and article, This one's funny. I think this came out yesterday, but People talking about it this morning. FIFA U turns on World Cup water bottle policy bans fans from bringing them into the stadium. I thought they couldn't get any lower. But as it turns out, they can, my favorite part about this is that there was a response to this tweet from Mercedes from the Mercedes Benz arena saying, this seems like a good time to remind fans that you can get like, you know, something, I don't know, bottomless refills on all Coke products in the Mercedes Bent stadium. was that was that I should probably just check that was real. hold on. Yeah, I mentioned this morning, didn't it? It was like for dollars was yeah for dollars was after. Yeah. Yeah, it's real. It's real w It's fun to think of the Mercedes Benz arerena kind of slumbering and hearing its phone ping and checking what FIFA has been saying about this. Something's relevant to us. Anyway, there you go. said they said yeah, it seems like a good time to remind fans that for two dollars you can get a fountain Coke product with unlimited free refills at Mercedes Benz Stadium. Yes, even during the World Cup. That's what they said Anyway we weren't planned to talk about this, but I was trying to think, I thought it'd be a fun experiment for the table. Can we think of anything that is sort of more on the nose as a description of why FIFA Seems bad. Well, oxygen, I suppose. Yeah. thing would be like maybe you can make everybody have to wear a feIFA shoute gas mask avoid by the nitrogen, that's the only thing in the atmosphere. They will remove all breathable air from the stadium and not allow you to bring your own tanks in. It's pretty hilarious, isn't it? The other thing I read the other day is do you remember there was the news that they they were suddenly charging hundred dollars or ninety eight dollars for the train from New York to the New Jersey stadium Apparently only six percent of those tickets have sold since then. so obviously people are finding alternative routes. It's sort of It's shaping up it's tempting to just go across and experience one of those trains though. The experiences I've had recently in trains in this country. The idea of just paying a hundred pounds and actually just sitting on an empty train sounds amazing's actually The last four train journeys I've been on I've sat on the floor Really? I pre booked tickets And there were free seats available. s havean. they bring your Exactly. You could bring your own water. Yes That's true. I was allowed to bring water. Yeah, they don't have enough security staff on trains to stop you today. It's very tempting, isn't it to think that the World Cup is going to suck. But then I remember thinking that before Qatar For all the obvious reasons of sports watching, everything everyone was publishing about it seemed negative in some way or another And then the tournament started It was pretty good. like the football was good, everybody seemed to enjoy it. I'm curious how this one's going to feel, but every story I've read about it been has involved FIFA, has involved host cities, has involved like enormous amounts of money and the expectation that people are going to you know, spend it all. I don't know. do do you feel the same much Do you think it's going to suck I think if that was the kind of thing that bothered people about football, this would not be the tipping point, right? Like this has been true forever. It was I mean, you know, London twenty twelve Olympics everyone thought was going to suck. Yeah, people I mean, it's all a lot of noise around it. It does suck. They don't have Danny Boyle doing the opening ceremony though, doesn L England win the World Cup is anyone going to care? I don't know. Is it just because it's so on the nose? it feels these problems feel uniquely American, even though they're not Yeah. I mean, and you know, when you've got Infantina giving Trump the peace prize, it does start to feel like there might be a little bit of a collision there between the two in a way that But I think football fans have just long been compromising about this stuff for their entire lives. Like everyone's just totally used to sucking it up now. and football fans don't vote with their feet, don't boycott, don't ever make decisions based on anything apart from their team. So it would be amazing if it were to change this. At least not here. I did read of a protest happening in Norway about VAR. Have you guys heard of this Where they fans of a certain team the planned protest was to throw fish cakes onto the pitch as soon as the game. the most Norwegian thing I've ever to puse it ex apparently fans are all complaining about VAR. Al alsoso the clubs are all complaining about VAR as well. What's fish got to do with it? I think that's just readily available. So people haven't got to the fish cake markets. I'm not sure if the fish is supposed to symbolize something or if it's just what everyone has lying around in Norway. Bring more fish cake bring more fish cake. But as a protest, I don't mind it I feel like they're pretty good at that. I mean, they're good at that in Germany as well. They do a lot of protesting, but I don know. Do we not think I don't know? I feel like this might be a bit of a shock this world Cup in the sense that the last two have been very much kind of sports washing entities where There's been so much scrutiny on the countries involved because they' the countries that were involved. Yeah. This time around, it's like the American exceptionalism is going to be very different, right? There's not the feeling amongst seemingly anyway, the American officials who are running these events to worry too much about how it's perceived because their status as a as a country in that respect isn't up for grabs. So I wonder whether or not you know, that as a result Both Russia and Qatar were like incredibly well run events. And actually on the face of it, everyone was everyone got to a point where like, o, maybe maybe we are bad to complain about sports washing. But this isn't going to be a sports washing. World Cup this is going to be a I mean, it probably should be though. Yeah, they've got lots of was. Yeah, but they don't realize that they should be washing And I think as a result, there's the possibility that it could it could go like it could be worse. It's also lacking the giddy excitement of like ninety four and like Diana Ross and like America being like this like charming ongenoo in the football world. Like it doesn't have that quality now. it just has the quality of like American corporations running everything. you know And on top of that, I think So much of the preview material that I'm consuming, no one really seems that like positive about the football for their countries in particular. I'm listening to previews where people are downplaying England's chances and I'm like, England are going be a favorite in this tournament. and people are acting as though they're going to drop out in the quart finals and stuff. And every time I come across a different country, I'm like everyone's like, oh you know we can't exxpect to win this. It just feels it almost feels like everyone's a little bit muted about it from a football perspective as well, but maybe that's what I've been watching. It is strange, isn't it? I mean, how far do you think they'll go JJ England that is? qu quite why not? definitely. What penalties do We've already decided it? No, we fixed penalties now. We know how to take them now. did you I think so, I think we did didn't? We have Ivan Tony. Yeah, we have Ivan Tony, so it's fine. He's allowed to take all five if it getes to. He's definitely missing penalty now isn't it? Yeah. Can you imagine coming on that's the only thing you're there for and you come on one hundred nineteenth minute? You've got no chance. It's almost a responsibility to miss the penalty in that condition isn't it? It's just the funniest bit you could do. Okay, well there we go. it's produced in the opening ceremony There's not Danny B.'t know he's there. It should be Jerry Brokhimmer. It should be producceer extraordinary Jerry Brok like like a jet like soars over the Over the top of the stadium and it itss way to Iran. and then you can have like all sorts of you know big US. You have seen the middle of the pitch. Yeah, that's right. I'm on Acneews d. com It's kind of difficult to read because there's a lot going on. Oh here we go. The World Cup will feature an unprecedented trio of star studied opening ceremonies in the host nations the U of Palanter. Yes, of course. Dve Vadable will beough. The US, Canada and Mexico are created by the Italian producer behind the opening ceremony for this year's Milan Cortina Winter Olympics. Doy anyone see that No, yes. Yes, yes. and I think it's one of the best I've seen so far. Yes, and especially when the jet flew over the top of the stadium on its way to with Darth Vader inside. Exactly Marco Baliich, fresh off the Olympics opening ceremony, which included a parade of athletes spread across four venues, said he was up to the challenge So there you go. That's good, isn't it? I look forward to missing that not seeing it. and was there there was something at the Championseag finals, wasn't there? What was it? that was that was a hard time. Oh k those came magic. Yeah. Were they good? Yeah. What did they sing D the medal song They played only a kiss. How did it end up like this in brackets. Right Yeah. That's what it's When you were young, they did like a shorten version of it So before they got to like the middle eightight they talked and then they also played U you read my mind, I think it was something? Yeah I like that wasas it that one? or was it No, no, it was a dancer. They played dance Oh yeah. the stupidest lyr mean coming from me as ritt but Are we human or are we dance? Yeah. And then and then they finished obviously mister Brright say it was of the old time Greek songs. Did they decide whether they were human or dance or did they just pose the question? I think it's more a rhetorical question that you've got a question their knees looking for the answer. That's How about that That's in the song. There you go. Anyway, we're going to talk about the World Cup M on next Monday's show with Ruben, who's been desperate to talk about England for the last four years. So good for him. But for now Let's proceed instead to spies. Yes, apies. We thought it was done But it's come back from halfway behind a tree, spies return Of course, there was the appeal recently. So I'm going to read now from Phil Buckingham's news story on the athletic. this is a reminder, of course, of what the Spygate is. So it sounds Spygate technically, Is it Spygate As a leades fan, I feel as though we did Sygate first. You've got to protect Mel M of Eiles's leg. I mean, yeah, it got forgotten quite quickly. Yeah it blew over quite quickly. How you Yeah w my leg and that was it llbody el that. You should try being likekable Yeah and then you just get away with everything, you know. So as a reminder, Southampton were expelled from the championship playoffs last month after it emerged that a junior analyst had been sent to watch semifinal opponents Middlesborough train ahead of a meeting in the first eg. Further breaches of the EFL's rules were also detailed in their subsequent disciplinary hearing with Southampton accepting that they had also spied on Oxford United and Ipswich toown four games in the regular season. That brought a further four point deduction, which will be applied to the total in the in next season. So when they were when they accepted these other two places, wasas that off their own backat? Did they say we actually we also spied here or did they I think they did not initially admit it but then they said, o okay but they got credit. There was evidence that they they'd handed over a bunch of messages which made it clear that they o They didn't win any of those gamesough did they it felt like at one point at one point. So felt asough it was kind of like Almost easy to admit that because you were sort of say, Well, we did, but we didn't benefit from it. You would imagine there I don't suppose you're only going to spy on like Oxford you're trying to get promotion for another championship. Specifically, Oxford, Un. They would have got zero points though. That's probably where most of the spies come from as well. Oxford. that's Hamord. That's a very good point. Tap on the shoulder at the Oxford training grantactly. You will now be an intern at Southampton Southampton contested the original verdict of a three person independent panel. and the full details of that appeal hearing that was held on may twentieth have now been published by the FFL. They're very funny. That's the reason the story has come back because more information came out through this appeal So here's a few things Included are the full movements of Southampton analyst William Salt during what was originally planned to be a two night stay near Middlesborough's training base. So he was apparently he was shown drone footage of Middlesborough's training ground before traveling so that he could familiarize. Iidn't they just use the drone? They've got drone footage They've got drone footage Maybe they could get one of those really high ones that no one knows ex. as a bird. Beyond that, Southampton's head coach, Tonda Ecker asked him to spy for two days, but he was caught on day one. isn't it? It didn't even make it today two William saw this the intern, he disabled his LinkedIn account after he was discovered in order to try to avoid detection through his photo. And then it was proposed that Southampton's media team deleted a photo from their website of Ecker winning the manager of the Month Prize was Salt among those in the background. This is a quote, they said, The only way they can put his face from CCTV with Southampton as he's deleted his LinkedIn picture. Just have to hope they won't put two together on this That was a message that was sent. And then the last one was Oxford United was the other spying charge that they admitted to. One message from a senior analyst sent to the intern sult, it read, Try and make out as much as possible, please, you legend. manager loved it. which Because that has perfect text message phrasing, I think. Anyway, so they did make a statement after the appeal. They also complained, I think, didn't they aren't you about the makeup of the board of the panel, again, who made the decision? Yeah, not a great look. I should say I myself Hampton fan. And I feel slightly like you know when a goverment minister gets like sent out the day after the government like water for children and that has to like appear on the eight th song. like It's not my fault. But yeah, they put out this astonishing statement with like, you know, we're really sorry about this. But also like one of the panel played one loan game from Middlesborough in nineteen ninety three. so this whole process is irredeemably corrupt like a That's true, they said. What's harder to accept is that similar scrutiny does not appear to have been applied to the composition of the disciplinary panel itself Given the apparent historic and indirect connections of two panel members to Middlesborough Well those connections do not by themselves prove bias. They plainly raise legitimate questions about consistency, perception and standards at. It's a bit rich to complain about scrutiny, isn't it when you're caught for being so bad at scrutinizing that It is a little bit bad, isn't it? What's the response been like from fans? I mean, there's more news about the manager and the owner. We'll get on to that, but like what's the response been like from Southampton fans, generally because As bit perplexing, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, just before I tell you that, you did miss out one of the great details. What wasn't I missed, whichich is the fact that I think it was the Ipsswich game. they were training at Eastley's training base. so the Southampton Sy had to dress up in an Eastley kit. But they're like, Ohh, we didn't realize there was anything wrong. Did they put a moustache on? It's actually a newspaper with holes. Oh God bless it I would say A large part of the fan base reaction has been initially like Are we the baddies now? you know what that mean? Just like S Hunton are one of those like utterly ineoffensive clubs that nobody really cares about that much is like Norwich Or something. It's just sort of like you just bobble along and no one really cares about you one way or other and everyone thinks you're quite nice. Yeah with like football's international supervs. And so there was a bit of kind of initially, I think some kind of amusement at that. and I heard people saying, you know, like it's quite nice to actually be showing a bit of edge for once and doing something like vaguely kind of sinister and effective anding all over deffinitely has changed But like being a sort of cool teenage period. Yeah, exactly. We started smoking Yeah the bike show, started spying on other people. Yeah. And then a month later we got lung cancer. and it just like it turned around very c. It's one of those cutionary tales. the first time I took E, I diedactly Exactly. And then with that has come like Absolutely classic kind of football fan Yeah like complete kind of mer about the severity it. I mean, I have a lot of problems with the way the process has been carried out and I definitely have my own like very kind of motivated reasoning on it. it was Middlespr fans that gave you the penalty. Of course, that's the issue with the panel there. Exactly. Bastards. and you know I think I think you will obviously find lots of people who say this is outrageous and we didn't people who will even say we didn't really do anything wrong. I think you can quibble about the penalty and feel aggrieved at the extent of the offense, but also you've got to accept on some level that like the rule is quite clear and we did't quite clearly break it. But I think that is even a min a minority view among Southampton fans. I sort of get it though. I think if I were a South Hampton fan Ped off. I feel like the severity of the punishments would upset me a little bit, particularly given you know, we already joked about Muscle of the Ulzer and L lead's doing, you know somewhat the similar thing all the same. I mean, I guess the difference is they didn't have any rules back then. so they did they not they r reduced the rules out in the response's the Bellser rule basically. Right. I see. I didn't realize that' the case. Which I guess is partly why they've had the book thrown at them because, I guess if you write rules and someone breaks and you're like, Oh, great. good excuse for us to use those rules Yeah But you understand why vans are defensive, right? Oh yeah, absolutely. I'd be furious if I was if I liked football But yeah, yeah, because it's one of those things where, you know, there's a level of I guess vagueness about like the actual impact that that kind of behavior has, right?. So on the one hand, you've achieved something which is incredibly difficult to achieve, which is to go through a forty six game period a period of games and then a series of games, sorry, and then you get to the playoffs, you get through the playoffs to the final. That's incredibly hard to do. and it's uncertain like what impact actually those spying sessions will have had. seemeems like they were so incompetent, probably not a lot, I suspect But yeah, the reality is is and we talked about this before on a previous podcast is that everyone else is in the same boat. Everyone else is working hard over a forty six game series for the season and then trying to go through the playoffs. and if you're going to cheat, then you're actually I guess reducing the effort other people have put in and making a bit of a mockery of it. So on the one hand, I'm like, yeah, it's clearly wrong. They shouldn't have done it, but then to then suffer to the tune of whatever it ends up being because it will end up being hundreds of millions of pounds potentially had they had they got through that final. I mean ironically wholeo ended up winning anyway. so who knows what would have happened Yeah, it it's a massive punishment for the crim given that we don't actually it's not like it, you know it's not like most crimes wherere like this you did this and this was the result. It' kind of like you did this and it's aem M murder rather than murder That's why I feel. It's like I mean, you manslaughter? Yeah. it's like you look at like, you know, we beat Arsenal. I don't think we had these guysies getting in and around the Arsenal training ground Re realistically. You know, we beat Fulham, we played really well against City. like it is not the only thing that has been I mean it trivial aspect of Souual success this season. It's also definitely against the rules and unfortunately the timing I mean, I suspect that had it been caught in the regular season the penalty would have been much smaller. But like it's quite hard to see what the penalty can be lets you go through to the final and potentially win that final at the expense of the other team in that context. I do think the four point penalty for next season is a bit like you know they perhaps didn't need to do that as well. But the other thing that I think about it is that there is like I can sort of accept it in the limited scope of like the appropriate penalty for the offence within just the context of like football as it is played and tactics as they are understood and the impact of tactics and knowing the other teams tactics. I see that But when you step back and think about what actually shapes success in football which is basically money And when you think about Chelsea and Manchester City and all of that And the extent of the punishments that they have had. And this distinction that is drawn between a sporting and a non sporting sanction, which kind of a bullshit distinction, to be honest. Like clearly you're only doing the non sporting stuff to accept theort to affect the sporting.. And spying isn't a sport incidentally.''s to affect the sporting element of it, right? Inded, R. Right exactly like they driiding on the area. Yeah Yeah. Explain the National Spy Award. Can I just give you my overworked analogy, which I think explains the whole thing? Yes, please. And you can be the jury on whether it's fair or not. But I've been thinking a lot about the financial crisis. Okay And the fact that when the banks failed or rather didn't fail, when allowed to fail, it was very clear that the people at the top of the banking system were the ones who were responsible for everything went to shit We're talking about two thousand seven, right? Yeah of course the real the credit Yeah the connisseurs bankinges. And you know, you have lots of people who defaulted on their mortgages and who indeed went to prison for lying about the amount that they earned. In order to get a mortgage, you had like bank loan managers going to prison, but like the guys at the top of the tree who told you that this was the way the system worked off Scott free because if you punish them, everything falls apart. And I sort of think that we're the little guy, the plucky loan manager, the guy just trying to get ahead because he's been told by the guys in the Champions League that you have to be at the top table to succeed. And you do everything you can to get there. And if you get there, nobody ever punishes you for anything, really, although Manchester City deny all charges What do we think About a verdict on that analogy? I absolutely agree. It's great. Yeah. Yes. Yeah I think so. I think I add something to it. But I like the idea that, you know, you become too big to fail, right in a In a financial sense, that's what we' That's what we're talking about, right?'s what I'm trying to. Yeah. Snuffered in pound cakes every day. I think Everton and Forerest would also disagree that there are no punishments when you're in the Premier League. It the Minnows aren't there Prem Lague Mnows now. There's a differentsue of those clubs. How about that? There we go. All right. Well, listen, there's more I like it. And anytime you want to talk about the credit crunch, it is the connoisseurs financial crisis. Now of course, more astonishing Southampton related news occurred. I think this twoo days ago now we're speaking. So Southampton owner, Dragan Solak, who's a Serbian businessman He says The club will not sack head coach Tonda Ecker despite his role in spying on championship opponents. In a video message addressed to fans posted on club channels, Solak said, Tonda's period as head coach has been a success so far, O form during twenty twenty six has been remarkable and we believe that he's the man to take us forward board we are fully behind him And together, we only have one objective we want to win promotion back to the Premier League. Tonda Eck did apologizeise to fans in a video later that day, very exciting. He took responsibility, although there were a few weird comments related to the spies to the spy as well. In fact, also Dragon Soerock again, the owner, he did suggest that the intern himself could have resisted Tonda's demands. This is the most the funniest quote He said annoyed me the most bit. He said I believe that our junior intern felt personally it's wrong. and he didn't feel right for doing this. And I think he should have expressed that stronger, So Like said. I'm pretty sure that if he'd come to us, the top management, actually it would have been the seniors who were punished and not him. Yeah, I bet it. That's terrible, isn't it? Yeah honestly, they can all fuck off That's ridiculous C you imagine how hard it is and how excited you are to get into that sort of position as a junior analyst? You know you've worked so hard to get there. You get some luck as well to get in and you're just worried about not or just losing that opportunity you're always worriryed's going to get taken away from you any second. Yeah. You got to do whatever you're asked to. I'm sure people who are listening and like I've been in similar situations where they've They've been asked to do things at their work that they don't really maybe agree with but you don't want to push back on it. sureure. I I've had things on TV that I push back on. yeah, name them. sayay what they were. do I want to know like little small things that like like see a guest was coming on to a TV show that I was working on and they were going do there was like a set piece plan for them that they was going to be really funny, but I didn't think they would like that So then I went against what I still to do. Right And told the personons is what we're going to do. and they're like, I'm not happy with that. I'll tell you it was after. But you at home will have to guess forever. It was Sa blank. It was S a blank Yeah. Yeah. But this is the thing so you know I'm glad that I was slightly older. so I got into this whole career later. so I was like try nine thirty at the time. Yeah. And addresses people because people think that you're in your twenties because of how you look Yeah, sort of physically and how you act. How I behave how you behave. That's because I'm mad. It everything about you. Yes you not are you, you're not. You're not even in your thirties. No, I'm not No. I'll be forty one this year. Wow. I know notothing wrong with that. Stunning. Exactly. I'm just very wise and you don't know it and I use it as part of one of my core spy skills. rightight? Be as you know as a spy course I forgot that you were a spy. Exactly. This is what happened last time we talked about this. Yeah. I for what I was talking about. I did Google earlier how to become a spy and it gave me a crucial spy skill. What are they? Well, this is how you know I'm good at these, right? Okay becausecause you know them already. Yeah ye yeah. This is how I can prove that I am a spy because I have all this crucial spy skills. Can I check? Was it a website that gave you these or was it Google's AI It's whatever it's I think it's a bit of bothles the Iye. Yeah. So this is this is why you know for certain that I am definitely a spy. Crucial spy skills. numberum one The ability to blend seamlessly into any environment without drawing attention to yourself. Yeah, you can't do that at all. That sure is definitely ideal for that. High emotional intelligence. She got that one? Ciminal building poor and c religious. Yeah yeah, of course, of course. Discretion and cover You must keep your application entirely confidential donon't tell people you respy,? Yeah ye. But you've been very good at that. Yeah. Mostly. Double bluff. Yeah. That's how you do it. There you go. Anyay I was like saying before it was brilliant, I think What you were saying, I think, before you told us that you were by was that it was wrong, what so lack said. Well yeah, it's not how dnamics in a workplace environment. Imagine that. was it powerful person punching down on the less powerful one? I don't know what you're talking about. But I would say that I just don't believe that if the intern had gone to the owner As if that he would even be able to contact the owners and said, By the way, they're asking me to spy. They would have such it's the financial crisis analogy all over again, right? but on a smaller scale. L as it could. Yeah. Who's the person that everyone's talking about? Some kid called William Salt. Yeah. William Salt an amazing name. like an even a W character Oh, yeah, poor old William Salt. It's just all It'd certainly be friends with Archie Blland, I think, wouldn't? I go Yeah The thing is though, he did stand halfway behind a tree and that's funny. Hving the photo, the photo is is the perfect representation of this thing. When you Google this in the future, fifty years in the future, that photo is going to be that is the visual representation of this thing. The ability to blend seamlessly into any environment without drawing attention to face. there's so many people in between him and the owner the who will have made decisions that are far more vital to this high thing. We don't know any of their names. It's just his name. And like, you know,, as you said before, it's just a kid at the beginning on the bottom rg of the ladder and he'll have been hyped to have got that job And now it's just like what does he do now? Like like he is in this position partly through having quite a memorable name that it is going to be attached to him for a long time to come in a way that like At least, you know, Tonda Ecker, should he succeed managerially? He will very visibly get past it afterwards.' quite hard for Williamsalt to shake this. I was thinking though, you know that it's all these managers keep saying, Well, it's normal on the continent. It's very normal. I'm like, Williamsalt get yourself over to Europe. You've got a CV now. You're on the showee Pepper's going to be working for like Bio Labor cuseon next se There we go. J a spy after all. So you know, he'll find a way. he'll get a new name and a passport. Now of course the the other big surprise here is that Tonda Eckt, who I think everyone imagined would inevitably be fired even if it was a sad affair is apparently not being fired. I mean, that's incredibly surprising, isn't an she? Well ye it did make me think of like to go back to the finance analogy of like Leono DiCaprio coming back in on Wolf of Wall Street and being like, I'm not fucking leving And like I think it's unrealistic. The thing is he's surely going to get a ban, isn't he? I mean, Dragonort like left some space in his statements, I think, for that. Maybe it's a real smart move in the sense that you know, he shows some loyalty in the statement, expecting the ban to come. He makes a change without it necessarily, you know, I mean, but then also he loses any kind of credit that he might get for making a decision off his own back The thing is that Tondere Ecker is a brilliant manager, right. there is no question that he's quite a strange guy. He's very thorough, very thorough. reallyally does his research. Yeah. But he' you, the turnaround in our fortunes after he took over was remarkable. And I don't think like we sort of happened upon him kind of by accident. He was the twenty oneess coach and he stayed in the job because he did so well initially like a man and you want him to stay. Yeah. Yeah, you know, but like I'd sort of love it if he stayed, but it wasn't my decision that he stayed so that I can maintain some vestige of the moral high ground while still reaping the benefits. Yeah. But like I sort of think the club has been punished. Yeah That ban on him does there's a suggestion from Slac and others that it would be double jeopardy and I'm not really sure that you can apply kind of vague legal principles to like the FA and the championship taking different processes about this. But it does seem like we've been ped triy, right? with the points production as well. So you go. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but I'll agree. It must be a rule triple to Jeopardy What do we expect from them next season? Is there an obvious candidate to replace him if he is banned? or I don't know what do you think? I mean, I don't think it'll be anyone internal because if he's banned, presumably his coaching staff are in a bit of trouble as well. like I think it'll be take your pick kind of a curious name that we've never heard of before. I mean it might be someone from the Sport Republic family of clubs. Right. Yes, I suppose so. Here's a question. The coaching staff, they if they're all, let's just hypothetically say that some of them were banned also for eighteen months or something. Do you think Being coaching staff at Southampton means that you have enough money to not work for eighteen months. O no. So like what do they do? T they go and get a normal job for a while and then try and get back into football again later. because presumably Tom Dckett would be able to not work for eighteen months if he was banned. I'm sure he's made enough money from his to get sacked Except you get s.ight like not the usual football sacking where you get your whole contract paid off. go it back. presumably he's like been paid enough over his time th, isn't he? He wouldn't have a huge amount of Surely you just go into consultancy or something. You you go to Europe where they love spine. right? It'll only be. go to M five MI five conference.. I like it. Okay, well, listen, we'll bring you more news of the fortunes or the fate of William Sultton Friends as things occur. Let's now we' take a quick meander, a short advertisement break and when we return, we shall play Ondo. Now today we are playing a Rndo. very, very exciting. Here's how the Rndo works. I ask a question that has multiple correct answers. we go round in a circle. We all give correct answers. Well not me I'm administering the Rndo. If you give me an incorrect answer you are immediately ejected from the Rndo. If you dillly dally or dither or take too much time or bother me in any way. or spy or spy, you are ejected from the Rndo. and the final person standing is named Rondo Del Ray. Wh's our current Rondo Del Ray? Was there one on Monday, Steve? there was. Who won Oh Who won? Kaya? Kaya. Yeah Kon two in a row. So won your live stream won. Reallyon on a Monday. clearly a very memorable Rndo. that was. Okay. now today I'm listen, I'm going to give you some clues for today. I practiced this outside with Ruben and Steve because I was uncertain of the difficulty level And Ruben's very good at Rondo's, as you know. So he found it a little difficult. So what I'm going to do is give you some clues before we get started Okay. now the question today is can you name any of the top twenty players with the highest cumulative transfer fees ever? So that's like obviously if a player has had There are a couple of players on this list who've had nine moves. So there's a couple on here that are high volume, but one of the first clues is that most players on this list are sort of between three four, some five, okay? So there are a couple with high volume, but it's better to think of players who have just had a couple of big moves. And obviously that skews to more recent times because of transfer fees. No inflation calculator here. So it's just just face value. and I will give you the baseline say that number twenty on this list, the lowest player on the list has cumulative fees of one hundred and fifty eight euros. lowest That's the lowest one, one hundred and fifty eight euros and that person had four moves. Will you tell us what number they are on the list when we say them? I will. Okay I will tell you that. I've kept that today. Okay, and I'm going to start With you, Archie. Okay good. Okay. whereere would you like to go first I'm gonna go with Kucker. You can Not have cAa but remember you get the debut, you get the debut Tks G. So you get to go one more time Ka Kaka not on my list. And Bappy is and Bappy of course is the only player on the list with just one move. That's although did' we move from Monaco to PSG? You did yeah D that was that free No, his moves to PH from PH to Ramadrid was a free Oh, So PSG paid. I've got million euros for him. I. PSG paid for him. Right. Okaykay, that's what explains why it's just the one. Okay, so that's one hundred eighty million euros. He was fourteenth on the list. Okay? John. Christiano Ronaldo. Christian Ronaldo is number three with five moves, two hundred forty seven million euros J. I'm going to play Ramal Luaku, Ramalul Luaku. He's one of a high volume high rollers. nine moves. he's second three hundred sixty nine million Back to you Achi Oh God, I'm suddenly like having a Panic atttack. Atack attack attack Erling Holeand. Earling Holeand is not on the list. Oh No. And you used you used that. no you want to talk about the credit c. We could talk about the financial crisis if you want. N have to go. He's out already. John, back to you. Neyar. Nemar is on the list. He's number one. Th moves four hundred million euros J Jen You're not first out today JJ. I know. Very excited I should invite more guuardian journalistm. I've started playing footmanerre going to try and remember footballers so. That's good. Yeah. Do you remember any of these? Well, would you like a clue? I'm gonna try one without a clue. I think this clue's gonna help you. But I to Wellllll don't give him a clue No let me play it first yes. Exactly. Yeah. you play first. I'm gonna to play Nicholas Elkca. Nicholas Elke is not on the list. Fuck off is not He normalist. He must be, he's normalist. And about nine moves for about This is why one of the clues was try not to go too much for the high volume players anymore. We tied. I want to be really clear about that. Unfortunately that's not how the Rondo works. that's not how it works. But given that Archie did have a debutant out, I think everyone's entitled to one in this game. Oh JjJ, you get a second guess. like the clue now Yes. The clue is that you know all of the players on this list, okay. And a second clue be think about recent player, Nicholaas Anelkca too old. He's too old for this list. Yes, yes Well, that would mean that it would be a player that I know well and plays currently for a team that I No well. and I can name all the teams. Yeah Real Madrid. He didn't play much this year because of an ACL and I know that, but Yes, that helps me. Yeah. Another little clue. thinkink about anyone that's had a move that's over a hundred million euros. if they've had other moves Probably in this list See About two in the morning armed police with snipers went to a house nearby to mine, so I was watching that this morning. bra's not in toughs ve, JJ. but I was obviously giving me the information. I was this guy. Can I just I'll just guess so r than we a run' time. Catino Continos on the list. Contino' number thirteen, five moves one hundred eighty million euros. John back to you I'm not sure about this one, but I can't think of anyone else I'm going to say Pa Pogba. Paul Pogba Not on the list. Is he not? But you get your second guess, of course I don't want a second guess. you have to have his No Everyone's had a second guess. Vulker. Everyone's had a second guess. What were the clues you gave to J E? I wasn't listening to because the clues were, just think of anyone over hundred million. Think of anyone that's the only two I can think of Maybe who may had a transfer of over a hundred million in the summer And has and has had a number Eo Ferandez. Enzo Fernandez is in the list. He's eighteenth Well, I'll go with him then, yeah. yeah With twoist to someone else. JJ, there was a recent Ballondur winner on this list, of course of course Yes U wasas there? Foring Vts must be there. Floring Bets is not here. But that doesn't make sense. I can I't it over hundred? D didn't have a previous move. I said the players who just try to ride for Declar Rice also isn't going to count. Declum Rice wouldn't here either. Like what I said was like, players who in the rules had hundred million one hundred million moves but have also had other moves e All right, this one was hard. Okay It was it turns out I can I say Luca Modrich? you see and Lu Modrich is not on this It' the recent Balland always Yeah This was Del then Bellies have three moves. He's number five overall on the list. I'm sorry, everyone. I dont try. No, don't worry. everyveryone tried. It's fine. I think there's no winner today. We all lost now there is no winn. There' no winner. That's fantastic. Exactly. is like much produced, I feel. So number twenty, the bottom rank player here is youu go like a TK He's made four moves totaling one hundred fifty eight million. We've got Gonzala Igwayain, Is that Anbrahemovich of course was one of high volume seven moves. That was an obvious one. I've never heard of him. Ky Hberts is on here. Just just the two moves to Chelsea and Arenal, but that's a lot of money. Akl D Maria is on the list. course of him Viictor Osoman has moved five times. He's here. Darwin Nunz is on the list. He's number eleven with four moves. Matthias Kuna Five moves, almost a hundred million years. also Matas de Lich is on here as well. You got have it. He's made five moves. Antoine Greesman with four Jal Fairish, of course, of course with five moves. Alexander Isac is number four. He made four moves and then of course the other player with nine transfers. He's played at every big club. Steve Claridge. It's Steve Clarge. It's Alvora Marata Nine moves, two hundred and seventeen million euros. Well how about that? That was hard, wasn't it? It was hard. I feel the gu who's spiritually on that list is Andy Carroll. Andy Carroll's spiritually on the list. Yeahah. He'd be on the list of volume moves. Inflation would have probably put him over that How about that? There we go. Well, disappointing One day though One day we'll have another. Rondo del May for all of us Rondo del May Rondoe del Caya remains. How about that? Now there we go. That was the Rondo. Where shall we go next other than two Manchester United, very exciting. Manchester United, of course, who have signed a new player, haven't they? I'm reading now from David Onstein's news story in the athletic. Manchester United have reached an agreement with Attalanta to sign midfielder Edison in an early statement of intent. It was an early statement of intent, A ahead of next season The twenty six year old Brazilian will move to Old Trafford for forty million euros, blah blah, blah, blah blah plus all things that are boring U Personal terms boring, boring. Okay. Edison must still undergo medical and that's also a little bit boring. Okay, I should have just copied the first paragraph in there. Anyway. question number one I guess John Is he a casimera replacement? Who is this guy? I never watched him play. Yeah I like Edison. Um, you know, he' like a butt is coming. No, I do like Edison. and whenever I've watched him, I've always amazed that he's stayed at Attalanta for so long U he's I don't think he's a Kazamira replacement, I think. And you know, I think he's sort of a vanguard for some other moves that Manchester United will make in the summer, who will write there will be more directly involved in replacing Casamiria in terms of what he offers on the pit. So will he maybe be a squad player? I think he'll be a squad player. I also think he, you know, he offers Look, he'll be he'll be a Cazmirary replacement in the sense that he will probably be an attempt to get more goals into the team I say that he' not he's not like a high volume goal getter, but he is. I think what he is is when whenever I watch him, I'm always impressed by his ability to ball carry. And I think not just ball carry in the sense of like progress the ball down the field carrying it, but also like carry the ball at speed and generate things from it. So in that respect, he feels less like, I mean if we're talking about Kaziro as being a sort of Six. whose primary role is to offer some kind of defensive coverage then and then ball progression when he's got the ball at his feet and he's not under pressure. Edison, I think is maybe like a step forward from that. and I was think I don't think it's really a profile that I'd thought Manchester United needed. But I wonder whether or not they just view this as a market opportunity. But I was thinking about, and one of the things that we've talked a lot about from a tactical point of view this season is that the game is becoming more about you breaking through opposition high presses, finding the space in behind and then having ball carriers move ball quickly towards an opposition backline. And I actually think that Edison would would be very good at that. this is I don't think he's going to be good. he's not like in buildup, he's not going to be good under pressure back to goal. I think he's fine, but like a lot of what he'll do is just bounce passes back. But I do think that when he gets space and time his passing is better than people have given credit for. I think that one of criticisms of him has been that he's not like a progressive passer, but I think he's improved in that respect. But yeah, it to me it sort of feels odd because we don't really know who the primary targets are going to be for them in that in that position. Yeah. So there's a lot of rumours about Carlars Babour, I guess. I mean, it does seem like the other question I was going to ask in this section is I think there's like there would be some concern amongst Manches United fans that while they're excited to buy a new player that I think that it's difficult to tell this player necessarily apart from Manuel Aarte who hasn't worked out. I'm not sure if the profile w is there similar dont and again, I don't really think they are. I'm not entirely sure what they'll be thinking other than we're going to flip Ugarte and then bring someone else in who can play the same role. And also' just interally it seems like very clear given that Michael Carac has only just been given the first team manager role. This does seem like a club transfer, doesn't it? Yeah, I'm sure it is. And the other thing to say is we don't really know what Carrick's Manchester United are going to look like, right? he's not had a preseason. he's not had to like transfer windows that he's been able to do any sort of meaningful moves in. So again, like it's sort of tough to try and assess what it is that Manchester United need U All of those uncertainties are there. but I think he's I don't know, forty million sounds like a lot, right? But like I think is not really anymore, right? It's like that's like a squad level player I think he's a great player. I just I just kind of wonder, well, how's he going to fit into going to use it. Yeah. like if he I think he offers a lot of upsides up. but I've seen some people kind of comparing him to someone like Sandro Tonali, right? So again, good ball carrier will I think he's very good out of possession in terms of like when he's got proximity. So like really good counterpressure. I think less good when he's covering like large spaces So he's not quite like Tunali in that respect, but It's he's the same kind of guy as Tenali. and I guess they were looking at Tunali as a potential option. So maybe that is the kind of profile that they want to want to get. But for me, I think their biggest pressing concern right now is going to be how do you and it's not even like replacing Casamiro because I think replacing Casamiro is basically this is a guy who' just a cheat code from set pieces when you've got Bruno Fernandez sure. Act on the pitch, I think Casamio has not been up to the level this season Yeah in terms of what you want from your your number six anyway. So it again, it's they they do have to They do have to find some kind of solution to sure to what they want that that six to be. And I don't think Edison really gives as any indication of what that is. I think this is just the potentially third or fourth choice midfielder they will have behind Cobby Manu and whoever. mayaybe they'll bring in another couple of midfielders. Yeah. J J, what do you think about Man United's transfer window this summer? looking looking forward to I mean, it seems as though they're going to have to buy a lot of midfielders I no b Well three like we were talking about. so they'll buy the main one and then they're going to have Champions Leagueotball as well. you can' just rely on two. so it'll be a mixture of three and four players who rotate in and out behind Bruno Fernandez. Yeah. So makes perfect sense. They might have some youth players coming through as well. I think there's a couple out on loan that have done all right. Tyler Fletcher is obviously breaking into the Scotland squad now. so what about him? as a result of an injury, isn't it? Yeah P Billy G replac Billy Gilore. Yeahah but you know play that might get some minutes but also they're not quite ready yet. so you have that. I think Ederson really great addition for that squad. like Evan John said agree agree with Yeahah, really quick bounces towards the ball really quickly can cararri it he's Brazilian. so like the cliche he's very good like skkillfully like technically, you get just little nutmgs all the time, you're watching highlights videos as refresh myself as one now. But yeah, one thing I alwaysop about Ederson because' known about him for years and years and years. He's always really like one of those who would come up and like sensible transfers and stuff like that. He's only got I think it's two caps. Yeah, three caps for Brazil. Right The entire time, But Eveans's known about him for years. I always wondered why that is and I can't find out why Be of Fred is it must be Fred. Well maybe keeping him out of the position. Yeah, that's the kind of thing that maybe it is because like the midfielders in Brazil having their scored for the Worlds Cup have Kanayes Casimiro, Dan Nilo Fabigno and Pakata. That's quite a lot of good but failed is. Yeah it is yeah. So it's maybe not room for, but he's like the busy bustling like R Like like what John says, the Casamimiru can't really cover ground as well because he's you know, you don't have to always do that. You can do it by being clever sure and being the right position where is Ederson can correct mistakes by jumping into things. Yeah. He's also in terms of squad building, he's twenty seven in July. So that's exactly prime age, you should be able to get three four years out of him like properly. then he should be one of the elders in the squad at thirty two or something like that to pass on to Tyler Fletcher or that sort of thing. Well, I was going to ask you about that actually, because we did a ring for analysis episode recently on James Mcnicholas's big inside arrsenal winning the league read And there's a fun detail at the beginning, which is to say that Aretta and Arsenal targeted they had this window of twenty twenty two to twenty twenty six or whatever that they thought there's an opportunity here for us to win the league And when you sort of apply that logic to Manchester United and you look at the composition of the squad now you think actually it's maybe not that surprising that they had a good season last season because their players a lot of their good players are at peak age Andes doesn't have that much longer, although they looks like it could run for another hundred years Maybe next season the season after is It you know, when you think about it in the same way as Arenal, maybe I'm not saying they're going challenge for the title I' saying maybe it's the peak of their success with this squad before they need to build a new one again. I don't know. do you feel that way? it's normally like three or four year cycles. So I haven't looked into that. They've been shit for ten maybe Maybe when Ferguson retired, they were like twenty twenty eight. That's notormally how you build a squad, right? You do it like three years cycle so you get, you know, then you still have to start replacing and adding to get them where you have to be. Yeah. And M United has worked historically for them is having like all the best players. So you just buy the best players that you possibly can. Like in the past, if it was Ferguson They they would have got like Elliot Anderson and they would have got like Morgan Roggers by now because they just seem like such manyated players from the past, but's true and there wouldn't have been that much competition in the league I actually think they're taking a different approach now though. I think that they are thinking more about And maybe this is just a league wide thing that it used to be the case that you thought squad building was about getting as many good players as you could into your squad. Whereas now I think questions like availability and raising the floor are super, super important. Yeah. I think the reason why Man United did well last season was because they did they did raise the floor, right? obbviously they brought in some really fantastic attacking players, but I think that they they just had that quality across the pitch now which late which raised the floor. It's worth saying that Edison I think he's missed something like ten games in the last right However long, like ages another se is So he's going to be a guy who is who is going to be available. And I think that that's the sort of thing that that teams need now. like you've as you've just said, Manchester United's issue next season is going to be playing a lot more games than they played this season. They're going to play minimum eight games more than they did last season, right? And and, it would be unlikely that they got knocked out in the league phase of the Champions League as well. So there's going to be more games. And I think maybe that's what we're going to start seeing more of with squad composition is, yeah, okay prof' always going to matter Yeah. And but at the same time, like who cares if you've got a really great player if they're not playing for half of the season, right? It makes very little difference. And then the other thing coming back to your u the peak age thing. I think it's just the it's the peak of Ferandz, right? That's right. That's where Manchester United are at. They've built a team now that sort of works for him and works around him and and so you've got to try and get what you can get out of him for the next couple of years. And and I think they're going to emulate like, you know, the sala Liverpool situation and a season of potentally and I don't know what I think about that. I mean, obviously in the long run, you always want to think, well, we've got we've got to think long term we've got to make sure we've got a varied and diverse squad. But if you've got someone who is such a unicorn like Bruno Fernandez, why not just build a team around him and have the players that he needs to really bring the most out of him? And you know, in the past we've talked about In the past, we've talked about whether or not you can build a team about Fernandas and really challenge at the top, but the game has changed, it's moved on And I think that you know, the with the game becoming so much more direct and so much more physical, I think someone like Bruno Fernandez becomes so much more valuable, right? Be because the game is built around going direct. It is built around winning the ball back if you lose it. and then suddenly, you know, if if the sort of possession control consensus has sort of eroded a little bit, maybe even collapsed. someomeone like Bruno becomes like one of the best players in the new meta. So yeah, why not just build build around for the next couple of years and see what you can get? You watch Preier Lagy I mean, I've watched more of I more watch of the championship. L there's not a lot of available aart from Southamthon on our like special player, which you can watch with a VPN, which obviously do not do. Of course you don't do that. Do you have an opinion about Manchester United? I think my only real opinion on this issue is that apart from Fernandez and Casamio I just have a presumption now that when Manchester United sign midfielders that I haven't heard of, they' going to be quite shit Yeah because they have been for a really long time. And I think it's fair to apply that to Catamia as well. Yeahah we scored so many goals last season, which kind of you know gloss over gloss over yeah, yeah painted over the cracks. But yeah, you know, I feel like there's a lineage of like Eric Jember Jember onward that feels like where I am very unfairly placing him and try to replace Royin, right? Right exactly. So I'm sure your tactical expertise is ahead of my unfair vibe based analysis. Have you not got a credit crunch analogy? Weirdly you know, I haven't got that far with it, but I'll think it'll over it for next time. Okay, fine. In other Pmer League midfielder transfer news, Manchester City have made an opening off of the Nottingam Forest midfield Elliot Anderson. That feels like it's going to be maybe one of the summer sagas. Forest have rejected the bid, but c's pursuit of the England international remains ongoing. So we can talk about that in future episodes. I just wonder what that looks like rejecting a bid. Do they just send an email back saying I think so. Thank you for your bid. Yeah for Ellie Anderson. Unfortunately, in this instance, you've not been successful Yeah. Is that what they send a photo message of them just say holding out fuck off fingers. What do you think they they message back and they're like, we're actually thinking more in the region of I expect there's the official response and then there's the unofficial response, which happens on what What's happenpped. It's like, maybe a little bit more There's a buy it now price. Yeah. There was talk that there was a conference that both Caldin and Al M Barack, who who's the the Chief executive of Manchester City and Evangelos Marinakas of Forest were both at recently. I don't think there's any determination as to whether they talked about this or not, but they were both there. So maybe there was an informal conversation. whoo could say? It'd be great if there was like a footballer's version of eBay, right where you could anyone could put a bid in for a player at any time. There sort of is, isn't it? There's like there's every releant name of that It's transfer room or something I can't I spoke to the person who made it, but I can't remember what it's called But there is essentially there's something not dissilar to that. It's not like it doesn't have should. Yeah, be it should be publicly available. so we can all just watch in and be like, oh, it's like youve got this. put it a bit. It's like six days ttill the end of the trans it It would be great. wouldouldn't it be good? I'd loveas there ever actually a real thing called a transfer list? Like I just feel like eightent days ofers champions manager andager we just like filter transfer listed. So I think this I'm talking about, it did a version of that where clubs were able to use it and put players up that they were interested in selling. But I don't know, what do you think? I've asked several people this question because obviously I mean, that's very interesting and I've asked it and I can't remember any of what they said. That's so annoying I've asked I've written pieces on it. Let's do it now. Pretend I'll pretend I'm you And if I ask you the question you're me, I'm you. So I'm you. Yeah. No, no, no. you're whoever. Hello Wh you ask me Tun Trers. All T I'm going to buy a tuna baguette. No. Oh, I'd love a tuna. I'd love a tunaagette. Do you know this morning I tried I encourage I try every sort of five years. it sounds like the technical aspect is what you filled on. you put your face in the bowl. every five years I try something again. I think, o, maybe Ill like it now, you know, because I've surprised myself before it was mainly with wine. but I don't like porridge still, don't like it. J you're having wine for breakfast? No, not anymore. It goes in your face. It goes in your face. Oh in the face. lovevely, but not the opposite bit of wine. Now, what about I talking about? Yes, of course, Marco silver. Leaves Fulham. That's the next topic of discussion here. Fulam have announced the Markos Silver's five year spell in West London writes Steve will come to an end when his contract expires in the summer And Jo S Marino's appointment at Real Madrid has created an opening at Portuguese giant Ben Fica that Silver does seem set to fill. The forty eight year old guided fulam to the championship title in his first campaign in charge before finishing tenth, thirteenth, eleventh, andleventh in Premier League and silver has obviously previously managed Lisbon rivals spporting cllub winning the Portuguese Cup there in twenty fifteen. The main thing I wanted to ask about this, I suppose is well two things. One, do was Marco Silver not and do it means to be offensive to Ben Figer fans, although I don't care if it is. Was Marco Silver not destined for a bigger team I felt as though he was like in and around the conversation for Maybe never quite reaching the heights of an elite Premier League team, and maybe the problem is that there's not enough of a, you know, teams in between Fulham and that group. I felt his next job might be a bigger one because he did really well for them. I find this really interesting. Benfica is an enormous club. R. Like it's one of the biggest way it's really fun. Lisbon's one of the best cities you could possibly ever go to. Lovely city. So this is the thing this I think is the kind of question that only someone who lives in England and watches the Premier League would think. Yeah. Yeah genuinely. I think the way I think about it is from a financial perspective and who has more buying power and which club has more money Right. Well this is the thing so that if you want he has ambitions of managing what we referred to as an elite club. abolute elite Bayon, Barcelona, real Real Madrid. Yeah. Late M'ays ye, all the Pmier League clubs, right. But this is like you ignore all of them, right? But then you go through the rest of them and you've got like Juventus inter AC like these huge clubs Ben Fica is one hundred percent there. L the Scottish ones, the big two are they're massive clubs. A aame. Exactly yeah. But like this and I've watched a few podcast clips where people were talking to I think Ben Foster about playing in Scotland particularly just related to Ben Fica Every single week like sixty thousand something people go to watch them play. It's enormous. The pressures of living in those cities is enormous and you get to compete for titles. So Marco Silva goes to Ben Fica. He's now competing to win a title, not just to like get fullum above relegation and towards Europe. Oh, they missed out by two points. Oh well, let's go again. Oh missed up at two points Let's go again. Instead he's nowighting for Champions League against the elites Yeah. against eents, against inter, against Realmadrid and all that sort ofuff And so then you get to say that I'm now w a winning manager who regularly winning a winning win a winningning champ manager. And then then you get to compete for that. And then your CV looks better. So then when the elite jobs come up, you go like, oh this lad by the way, won the Liga Nos and he also was in the Champions of quarter fininals and semies and you can do that. Yeah. It's an enormous club Like this Pmier League focusing everything like fuck off. It's not the only league. It's not the only one. There's like money's ruining all of it and it's becoming like the NBA. Eone has to go there. In England, like two pints is like sixteen quid now. You think that's why he moved? Oh maybe but I' of the pz of progress. it's unsustainable. It's unsustainable. How can you afford to do anything? if that's what's like, all right, I'll go and watch full and play for ninety quid. Oh they've drawn. That's good. I'll go home now and two pints on way home No thanks. can't afford it. have to pay mortgage. The Gour May burgers at full of them though, delicious in the family stands. Yeah, that's nice pubs. swimming pool on the top top one Is there also a thing now where like I you talked a few weeks ago about Potter and how that just didn't work out and the sense that like there isn't really a sense that you can just transition now from out of a mid table manager. Yeah top tier manager. I feel like with those the guys who do make that transition, there is always like momentum there, right? And he has been one hundred percent stuck in middle gear for quite a long time for them. And also it's better to live in Portugal, obviously. Ireolos a really good example, sorry, John, justust like because he's like you can talk about Aolo, That's why I' heard you stop talking so no, he's at his peak of like climbing up, right? now So it was Bournemouth arere in Europe to qualifity to Europe,'t they? Yeah. So this is the thing. So now if if he doesn't leave Bournemouth and stays there, follow a chance to finish thirteent, fourteenth of next year And the momentum's going and then he's not like the shiny star or whatever. peopleeople still think he's good he hasn't proved it again. So he'd have to go to like Benic as we can prove it. And I think of managers that go to Joseph Reno made his name at Porto, you know, so then he won Champions Lague there. he got to go to Chelsea that he's justone to Realm Madrid from B well to move. Yeah have to say. you see it constantly. I think an example now like I saw Dererek McKinis in Scotlands like he's the hearts manager alm won the league with them. Yeah. He was Aberdeen was doing really well on an upwards trajectory, but just didn't take the jobs that maybe weren't right for anybody to go and then just fell apart. left Labberdine and he went to like Kilmarnick and some like rubbish like mid level low level jobs R Wored his way back to the top at hearts. Now he's probably going to be in talks for bigger jobs like Rangers or Scotland or something like that. But it's about getting your momentum and choosing like managers have to choose a career really carefully Well, it's interesting. I think that's why I'm interested with Marco Silver specifically because he feels he's perennially being around on the you know, flirting with the edges of being an And Doni Areola type, right? Yeah. when you look at his his career, he was at sporting all the way back in twenty fourteen. he was there for a season. Then he went to Olympia Achus for a year. He was at Hull for a little bit, then Watford another year and then then he got his move to Everton. And I that was around the time where people thought, o, he is one of the up and coming managers. little not quite elite momentum, but some momentum in the way that you would describe. It didn't work out. He was out of a job for a while and then he had five years at Fulham, which were pretty successful years where he did a good job with the team. So do you think like I guess the reason I'm confused about the movie because is not because Ben Fri Ben Fen Frek Not because Ben Frika isn't like an exciting scary club to be at. but Portugal is obviously a lovely place to live, but because I'm trying to work out where to place Marco Silva in his career arc, Is this a move that tries to build momentum or has momentum? or what do you think I think it it means you can compete for titles, which is what anyone any elite sports person probably want to do. Also, I mean he here's Portuguese and it's a n place to live. So there might be other like family things that make want to be there too because you never know. But is it also more likely to, you know, if he's got an end goal of managing, you know, one of the four elite teams that you mentioned before, then maybe this's more likely to make that jump from B there might not be this end goal. maybe not everyone has to constantly achieve like they to follow like the capitalist dream of constantly getting more I agree but I feel like footballers. I know and I said that's probably the case. But like if you look at Benfica, so they do sign great players, they still do sign like the wonder Kids from South America, even though that's now happening where theyre going into to the Premier League as well was ruining their like sort of like golden pathway to whatever. But their academy routinely produces unbelievable players. like they constantly come through there. They sign them young and they develop there's loads ofortguese players come through, especially Benfica There's some great artles the athletic, but like how that whole thing works. So like you've got the potential to form like a super team. You never know if you one of those those like like the portal who did something or maybe like IX who did something, maybe that's where you could do it. It seems far more fun. You don't have to relentlessly deal with like drawing one all with Burnley on the weekend, it can be like you get to destroy random Portuguese team A and then you play the big ones against, you know, Porto and sporting come up and stuff like that. I think it would be just Proably quite fun to manage them Yeah. And also it's an enormously well supported club around the world. It has huge families that go to the games. The stadium is cool. the city is cool. I want to do that as well. Me too. I like how you can see it on the flight path into Lisbon. you can see both the stadiums. That's very pleasing to me I have two things to say. Two things. Yes. Okay. thing one. Th one is I agree with JJ that we need to stop thinking about success in football as something that is linear like that. right? I think because it's so easy to just get on the hype train of like this the top is where you matter the most Yeah. and anything below that is not worth worth doing. I think Well Andonia Areola's type of path is the one that everyone has to replicate. Yeah, right, exactly. And I think it's totally fine for people to to actually want to have, you know, Marco Silver has been at Fulham for a while. He's been there what fight's F at least like the third highest serving longest serving actually in fact, maybe even the second now that guuardiolas in the Premier League. So yeah, I think it's totly fine if to have that kind of stint and move off somewhere else and do whatever you want. Yeah. you should enjoy your life as a football coach. and it has value. It has inherent value. So wherever you're at, even if you're doing grassroots football, it's valuable. ending itself. I'm really enjoying both of your life coac advice. What you do has inherent value You go to Lisbon, you get a nice cheap beer, it's absolutely fine My second point is point two point two Yeah, I think that If you look at it, you've just read through his CV I have in sk and it goes Ho Watford Edton Fullham. This is a guy who is who is waiting around to make that step up and it has happened for whatever reason. And I think you can maybe make the argument this time aroundound that he's the victim of circumstances beyond his control when someone like Thomas Frank goes to spurs and it doesn't work out.s Whether rightly or wrongly, going to probably be tarred with that same brush t hard with the frank brush. It's the risk, right? He then becomes considered, I suppose, a more risky option. Will a coach like that who is and he's a very good coach and he's done all of the clubs he's been in that I've watched him coach. he's always been a really impressive coach For whatever reason,, maybe that has prompted him to go to Ben Fka and be like, fine, if I'm not going to get my step up in the Premier League, then I'll go back to Portugal improve that I could do at the top level. And I think, you know, it's it's also worth saying I think more coaches who are in the lower Premier League should do that because I think an environment like Benfica will there will be so much more space for him to evolve, develop kind of coaching approach than he would do if he went You know, if you'd gone to Manchester United or whatever, you know, they got or sppurs when they were being linked with him as well. Yeah. It's just it's probably a safer option for them for their career trajectory to do that It would also be you wouldd have to think any club where he would have pitch up in the upper echelons of the Premier League now, he would be an underwhelming choice for fans should very quickly be disappointed if it wasn't going well. be incredibly high bar for success there. but he probably has a much longer runway. I would think. I don't know howen thinker fans about his appointment. Yeah, I mean, I guess the big three, I mean, it's obviously very fiercely competitive the top of the of this of the Portuguese Lague. but I suppose every club who is in that big three who don't win the league will feel as though they've been let down. but I also think that you know the pressure will just be less. And yeah, like like JJ said, have the opportunity to work with like really talented up and coming players and have a chance to I don't know, I guess enjoy being in a different part of the table, right? It's likes a different lovely play. Yeah and it's a different challenge and and yeah, I don't I don't bemoan him for wanting to do that Point three I didn't have a three. Okay, fine there we go. Is' a rare instance of me not having Steve should we have an incredibly late ad break? Please, That'll be fun, wouldn't it? Yeah And we're back from that ad break. it was very exciting for all of us. Now, we're honored today of course, to be joined by Archie, not just because of his status as a journalist of high standing, right, Steve Thank you, Steve You're welcome Archie. He's also a p. I mean now Steve has written, he's incredibly good at the Premier League's fantas football game, finishing the top one thousand this season. The way Archtie described it to me is that he doesn't know how it happened. So let's find out. now. how do you become a king of captaining? a master of moving, out injured players and burrowing through the endless list of possible players to find the four point five million pound bargain What position did you actually finish in seven hundred and fiftieth. That's pretty impressive. How many people twelve and a half million That's right. This is the first time I have told anybody this and I haven't been like, I don't care. So thank you. I'm on the oddge of not caring, but how many years have you played FBL Oh I go way back. Right. And what's the second highest you've ever f? Oh like like top hundred thousand lost topop hundred thousand So, you know, that's also they're about one hundred thousand people get to the end of the season Yeah. I've come from like Fulham like Fenfica. Yeah. Fenfka. It's like I made the leap. You made the leap and a leap man. Does that get you any benefits Like is there a club that you can join? Absolutely nothing. I mean I won the Guardian League and I get two hundred and sixty quid for that I'd finished like. So misteroney bag's going in. Oh the Gardian. I bet. two hundred and sixty pounds. I just wanna be clear, it's not like a stipend that the Guardian has for everyone put in a tenner. Just to be really clear about that. But yeah, it's a foral HR policy. I got it. I did feel like Of all the things that I could be seven hundred and fiftieth in the world out out of twelve and a half million people, are there any that matter less than this? That's a really good question. Spying. I would assume also if you're saying if you'reing the rankings then that's the point that no one cares about it, then actually do. What may spy Londor they're still talking about spying. Don't forgetual It's a casual affair.. I think what may have happened is that you've won a prize, which actually causes you pain because as you try to tell people about it and people don't care You sort of sound like a kind of dobe loser guy Yeah ye. Well I'm feeling it right now. I mean, I know that like when I'm an old man telling people about the highlights of my life, the year that I finished we're picking up worms and stones Yeah, exactly.ike there's this thing a long time ago. are you married? Yeah. and well, I mean, only just after after the amount that I've talked about hundred fif. Have you told your spouse about this? Yeah, my Canadian spouse, who could not be less interested.ly it's quite bracing. to see the look that she gives me when I'm on my phone, trying to like, especially if I've like forgotten the deadline and I'm trying to sneak in the transfers really quickly and feeling fant Yeah. what's the secret to your success? What did you do? I mean, like it doesappear to be sheer luck. There's a certain level of like, I'm sure you can finish in the top million just by like remembering I was gonna to ask, how do you remember? Well it was sort of quite motivating to pay attention to it as I gradually climbed Yeahs the table. But then it's mostly like copying FPL influencers on social media. That's the problem. Yeah, it's one of the problems that I don't really play it anymore Eone just has to seem There's a way to win. Yeah yeah Yeah. And so then quite minor like tweak basically, if it's sort of like the stock market. If you like get on something like just before everyone else does, you get that little like two week bump. That's the problem, isn't it?ike that's a real problem in gaming. I found this with Civilization sixix, which is a game that JJ and I have played a lot It's a fantastic game, right? But the problem is the better you get at it, the less variety I think you often use in your game. So I found that like in the first year of playing that because there's so much to learn I would try loads of different things. But now when I play I just like have to get the feed the worldorld religion immediately because it makes your city so strong. And I feel as though sometimes it's fun to try and play through a game and not do that as a challenge. but if you're playing against other people or you want to win You just once you find out what the overpowered element of the video game is, you just hammer that every Maeta conundrum here, It just happens in every sport, right? Whereaset Rocket League doesn't have that, I don't think. A game like Rocket League, have you ever played the video game Rocket League Yeah doesn't have that. I think the better you get at it, the challenge continues. there are many there's obviously a competitive and I'm sure that like professional players might say, what you have to play in the most efficient way. But just it doesn't have the same kind of most efficient way for me, it's just like not missing the ball and there, right? I mean, look something you guys probably won't understand about elite is that actually it's like one of the weird things about it has been Ihing like Wow, like if like in three weeks I had like chosen a different captain, I I have like actually won Yeah the whole thing. That's too annoying. It's really annoying. like I did miss a couple of deadlines.. So like a sn you had right that. Did you have an ever present or any other presence in your team Fernandez Gabrielle I got Senesi very early who's like good like enabler and like a few guys like that. but no what do they call it? the new the new rules about The Defcon right Defc Defcon monster. Right. As a Southampton fan, how often have you spayed on other? Well I will say as a Samthon fan, one of the great things about not being in the Premier League is that I don't feel the obligation of R to get like one Southampton guy in there who totally fugged out. So that's been good. Do you not get access now to like special leagues? Once you finish that high up, is it not like You've achieved in the Illuminatity Yeah you should check it out. I bet there is. very there's some really I bet there's some really like high level leagues where like you can only join if you've got this finishing position that you can now get into probably quite competitive though. and it will never happen again. I think even the guy who wins the whole thing gets like like an away trip to a the league match or something's not exactly like winning, you know do you feel the pressure now for next season Is it just a disappointment from this stage? do you think? like you can never recreate it? I think I am very unlikely to ever recreate it. I did think about becoming an FPL influencer but I suspect a huge amount of money in that and it would be a career mistake probablyould. yeah. How about that? Have you spoken to any of the football journists or a guardian about your success? I actually did have an incredible moment where I was walking past Jonathan Lou and Paul McKinnis who like to our football team. and because Paul is in the same league, he was like, you're doing quite well. And Jonathan said kind of miringly, I didn't even know you like football So I feel like it's put me on the map. He's on the football map. How about that? Well, congratulations. Well I feel like because no one else is going to do it A Little round of applause from us. Yeahah. Yeah well I'm very impressed. I am impressed. Could I ask who you're going to put in your World Cup w I'm not going to do it. women's football. That's the other thing about it.' other thing to a break. Yeah. I agree that. I know about that. Well, congratulations on your meaningless achievement. I'm sorry for you that you will never have it again. How about you very much. Ay plan. Thankk you very much. Thank you. Jonathan Mackenzie Thanks, JJ Ball. Thank you. Also Steve was here. Thank you. We willll be back next Monday with a bumper pack crew of five to talk about the World Cup.um bumper fact. Bumper fact have a bumper Bumper fact. I've got a frog not toads. There's a I learned this the other day. The South African football team have had a player with the same name for the last three World Cups, but it's not the same player like that. That's a good bumper fact. Bumperect Oh It can be ever not anything anything. One chief station in London with six consecutive consants. Knightbridge a fuck. You guys clearly watch the same tube inlic Yes, yes. Bumper back, please U I am a spy. I'm not a spy.. I want you to think that's so outrageous so that you that I am got it got it. My bu of fact is Birming was a lot more expensive for paints than I thought it would be sure sure on the weekend. Hey second city Yeah Pace me to anxiety. Yeah. I mean, Lisbon Beautiful. Bumper Fax, Stf. This'll be good the Egyptian P pharaoh. You wore a hat to school. It's further away in the past the rest from the beginning of the Egyptian phharaohs than the iPhone is to her. Oh I love that. So how old the pyramids are. Of course ancient civilizations made those long ago, so of course. Yeah we must stop the podcasts now Thanks everyone. We'll be back on Monday.'s good