Closing Remarks and Lunch Wagers

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Right now, get one of nine leegendary cups when you order the FeF World Cup meal only at McDonald's at participating McDonald's only for a limited time while supplies last, All rights reserved, copyright twenty twenty six, McDonalds at the FIFA World Cup, twenty twenty six This episode of the TFo Football podcast is sponsored by Boss, businesswar provider for the US men's National soccer team Long before kickoff, the performance has already begun. 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Wear your passion your way and be your own boss at boss. com or at your nearest boss store Hell Welcome to the TFo Football podcast. I'm Joe Devine and today I'm just delighted to be joined by John Mackenzie. Hello, Joe. Allright, how's it going? Good thanks. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. I'm live. Me too. Yeah, so for people listening to us afterwards, it's important that they knew that we were live when we spoke these words. We always are when we speak these words. Well yes Not always as many people can hear us as usual. That's true. Yeah, that's true. Also, we're joined by Alex Barker. Hello. All right buddy how's it going? It's going, okay. I've noticed I'm the only one without a laptop on this table, so I'm feeling unprepared, but hopefully it'll be fine. He's got that Gen Z knowledge just locked in there in the brain. Now Alex is joining us after you've had a busy day. You were also at the League one playoff final between Bolton and Stockport, right? Yes, somewhat accidentally There you go. So if we've got a little bit of time towards the end of today's podcast, we may discuss Bolton. There we go. Now, what are we going to be talking about on today's show? Well, that we're going to read through all the permutations from the final day of the Premier League. Spurs surviveed the Premierag. They avoid relegation. Unfortunately for West Ham fans, West Ham West Ham's three nill Victory over Leeds wasn't enough to stay in the Premier League this time. There'll be a Rndo a little bit later on, and we're going to have a broader conversation towards the second half of the Pacast. What do we think about the season generally? We're going to have a little debate about that because there's lots of different takes on that one. and what will be different next season? Plus we will discuss The details of the lunch that I now owe Joh as a result of my two lunch wages comoming to a sad sad end. today. Anyway, there we go. So after this bit of music we shall begin. Okay, before we talk about spurs, let's first go through the various permutations that have occurred as a result of the final day of the season startarting with Chelsea who finished at tenth Overall in the end No European football at all, as it stands, fourteen losses in Chelsea's season. So that will have I sat with Sebstaffer Blor to watch the games towards the end of theorry today. and he made the point that that will have some impact on their finances, I think in the summer. They lost to one to Sundland today. Sundland incidentally who finished seventh which is Quite incredible. obviously we know they had a fantastic first half of the season, somewhat less exciting second, but to finish seventh is fantastic. Brighton los to M man United of course, so Sundland will get Europa League football and Brighton will get Europa conference League football. Elsewhere, Liverpool drew with Brentford, but Asam Villa beat Manchester City PPs final game at the Eiad. So no change in fourth and fifth positions, which as we know, would have been the permutation that could have meant Bournouth got Champions League. They didn't unfortunately. So that means Europa League for Bournemouth as well. And of course Last but not least, Spurs beat Everton at home, meaning that West Ham's relegation to the championship is confirmed despite beating Leeds three n. It wasn' it wasn't enough, It wasn't enough. Callon Wilson in fact, didn't even celebrate that third lovely goal that they scored So commiserations to West Ham and West Ham fans. but there were some ecstatic Spurs fans in the office today, producer Nathan one of them, Sebstaffordblore or another Congratulations on your incredible success this season. just remarkable to avoid relegation with forty one points earned. So let's start there. The only other permutation, as I say, my two lunch wages ended in dour misery today, didn't they? Quite incredible that we managed to make two wages that lasted until the final day of the season both relied on the outcome of the David Moy's Everton team that just didn't really seem to want to try before ninety four minutes, maybe. I mean, if Everton won that game, I would have won both of those waers. That's how close it was, Joh. But never mind, never mind later, you'll tell me where you want to be taken for lunch Let's start with Spurs one, Nil Everton U I mean there actually it was actually quite a good performance today and we'll talk about that shortly. But Alex Barker I mean, they just don't really belong near this part of the table, do they? If anything, today's performance, show that a little bit. looking back on this season, what is it that you think has happened Yeah, I think it's been like a toxic mix of so many things. I let's go back to the start right. Andropost to Coglu leaves Tottenham Hotspur and obviously not a particularly great season for spurs last year in terms of league form, but he did win the Europa League. And it was clear the players absolutely loved him, right. I mean it was clear at the time, but I think it's been clear as well when the athletics reporting to. So Thomas Frank comes into that environment into an environment where the players love the previous manager. And he also has a totally different way of playing torange Poster Coglu. L Poster Cogu is very much all attack, no defense. Thomas Frank's very much all defense, no attack, I think is the best way to put it, right? And I think What we saw quite early on and I was talking to producer Nathan earlier about this is Surs had a very limited way of attacking. It was get the ball to Pedro Poro and put the ball in behind Mahada Kutis, Hope he does something. Orll just have Pedro Poro take a shot over and over and over and over and over again. That was the other option. Or set pieces as well. Yeah. And this was showown up in their defeat to Ballnemouth I remember watching them like ten, fifteen games later and was like o, this is still the only way they can play. But I think what we had going back to the toxic mix of things was You had the fans getting on Thomas Frank Thomas Frank's back and also the Totten Hops Stadium as well famously bad record. It just felt like everything was getting put on top of spurs. No. And yet it was hard to get behind them, I think, from a fan's perspective, as well as Thomas Frank's tactics. There's so many things to it. I'm not even mentioned Daniel Levy's departure, which I was reading the inside read of Frank's departure earlier. That was something that really was spoken about a lot, having a huge impact on Top them. But I think the one thing I will go back to, something you mentioned before as well is that Not only was Frank quite a bad fit for Spurs, I think tactically and also he seemeds to get swallowed up by the club The hierarchy at Tottenham Hotsbur seemed intent on backing him with this idea that if we back him, he could be our Michel A Tetta and he just needs time. And it seems Nathan said veryo earlier, which is they've started with that idea and worked backwards to the idea that Thomas Frank's the right man. But all that's happened is they've given so much time to the wrong man that they put them in a relegation battle Yeah. Alex has summed up was there anything you want to add to John? Yeah, I guess we talked about this before when we were planning the show, but talking about how yeah, that approach in particular where it's almost like start at the end and try and work your way backwards and then K keepep kidding yourself that you're on the wrong on the right track and it will all work out. and We've actually seen a couple of clubs doing that this season. So we see we saw that a little bit with Chelsea as well where you know, the Chelsea hierarchy would often come out and say, we don't think that managers are that important, for example And I think, you know, Daniel Finkelstein, who's one of the I think he's on the board at Chelsea, came out and said, you know, if you look at the numbers, it show it's pretty clear that the manager is one of the least important variables for what can happen to you. It's interesting that they've just given Je Alonzo the title of manager instead of. Well, yeah, exactly. And so they've come to the end of the season having gone through a couple of like process managers in recent years And they finally seem to have backtracked and said Actually the coach obviously has a huge impact on the outcome of how a team will do.. And I think in that respect, you know, there you can see the mirroring between both Chelsea and Spurs. Chelsea, as we've just said, finishing in tenth place have now given The keys of the Kingdom to Jabi Alonzso And it seems as though they're going to have him much more involved in in a sort of over the top like approach to this. Again, that can go wrong, right? And you know, we said it before, like SpurRs tried to do what the smart clubs do and it didn't work out. Maybe Chelsea will be doing the same thing with Chabi Alonzso. It depends on how the infrastructure can play into that. But so much of this stuff now just comes down to the fact that there's so many layers of things, as Alex has said, that impact whether or not your club is going to succeed a Premier League season. We haven't even talked about the fact that the tactical meta has shifted in the last few seasons as well. So again, taking someone like Thomas Frank from one kind of club and putting him in another kind of club at a point in time when actually it feels as though the way that teams are setting up to play has changed. Again, we talked about play recruitment as well and that is impacted by that tactical meta. There's a lot of clubs now moving towards you know, more physically, I would say imposing profiles of player. and again, you know, I think a lot of those clubs have looked at it and been being like, oh, you know, it's the path of least resistance. If we get players who are big, they'll be able to compete in this in this sort of heavy dual economy that the that the The Premier League has become But then we see what happens with Spurs towards the end of the season. you bring in a coach like Roberto Derby who again is a fantastic coach and I think you can see the signs of that in the last few games where yeah, okay, the Spurs team is so far away from the level of technicality that he would want to play the game that he would want his side to be putting out. But at the same time, you just look at that and you think how on earth is a team like this going to compete playing the way that it does with the completely the wrong profiles of player all over the pitch. So yeah, I think it's just a lot of things have happened all at once for Spurs. a lot of them internal, a lot of them external and this is just the sort of the aggregation of them all into one mess that spurs have been this season. Can I sneak one more point in as well just on this point this idea. Before you do, can I move mouth your mouth? Can I move your mouth clos to your m? I can move closer Hello, Is this louder? There we go. No it's just something we were tal about Thomas Frank and John was mentioning about the profiles of the players. that Spurs I think everyone can critique their recruitment this like the past few years. But something that always stuck in my mind for Thomas Frank was he spoke very much about sppurs being individuals. in attack was always, the individuals just need to make better decisions. It's like in these moments the individuals can do better and he never spoke about collective ideas to break down a low bllock. it felt very Brentford the way he spoke about things. and I think that really stuck in my mind throughout his tenure. And now, as John says, Deserbis comes in a bit more collective, it feels like spurs climb up the table Oh oK producer Nathan think so? Yeah, you think so? wasas that were all good? Like what was your gesture? I'm just curious what your gesture was that That's all I'd love to interrupt the show to understand your gest. What did it mean? Ax coming through Could be a little gainy maybe. Who knows. Okay, does it still sound like that all the way to the end of that monologue? Yeah, Sh we pause and resolvear? Yeah Alex. Okayell us about French footballle. Wh while you're doing sound checking, explain to the live audience why it's beneficial that we pause everything to do this. Wow, that's a great question. It's fantastic to pause during this because you don't want to hear my distorted voice throughout an entire podcast. My other words are incredibly valuable Especially alongside my tutor across the table. I want to prove myself to him I'm completely waffling now. Tutor. Yeah. I think I think that's my John when I look at him, he's like a teacher, a geography teacher in many ways He' some shots here. No, no, no Th these are all pure compliments. and I'm just looking straight ahead to make sure that I keep monologing and don't get distracted the producers to my right. It's an incredibly good skill to make sure my right eye doesn't glance over. That's good. Even towards camera is I guess kinds give a round of applause to Alex's monologue there. An incredible sound checking monologue. If you've not done that live before, you have no idea how hard it is, unless, of course you're someone like Alex Barker who would be doing that if I hadn't asked him to. There he goes. We sound a little better now, potentially Yeah I think so. Yeah. oK, we had a rogue gain issue. OkayK, than for well, I was just say thanks for your patience audience. I don't care. Let's carry on. did what had you just said, what was the end of the last thing you said? The end of the last thing I said was that Thomas Frank had a very individual approach to coaching. It wass very Brentford like spurs a bit more collective. It wass just a sneaky point. You can go back to what Joh was talking about. No I like it I just want to want to pick up on what was Alex was just saying, John. I've got a question written down here which is to what extent is Thomas Frank to blame for what happened this season? mean It feels like there's an awful lot more going on than just the coaching. I' to say that wasn't a big part of it, but how do you begin to answer a question like that? Yeah. And as we've said, like there's so many different competing. narratives for why things went wrong. I guess the way that I would look at it looking backwards is to what extent did the way that he set up actually reduce Burs's chances later in the season? Because I think Even even in the game today at the first twenty minutes I thought I was watching the game and I was like actually plenty of examples of the sorts of things you expect a deserly team to do in that first twenty minutes. So in that respect, sort of remarkable the impact that he has had on them. But it has taken him however many games he's had so far. It's not something you just flip a switch and you turn it around overnight. And then even in the course of the game, you know, after that first twenty, thirty minutes And the nerve set in Everton sort of put put Spurs under a little bit more pressure. and, you know, the second half was just tetchy. It was just they were they weren't trying to do anything. They were just trying to, you know, they were playing the ball long, they weren't committing players forward. they they had the goal, they didn't they didn't need to do anything other than not concede to. And that sort of changes the approach. But yeah, I guess I was kind of interested in the impact that a coach can have even in the short term, was it just the case that this squad wasn't able to play good football from the off Or is there something that you know, was there something in the way that Thomas Frank was coaching them that actually made them less likely to play Well later on in the season. I don't know what you guys think about that. I think there is a lot to it. I think deffinitely from like a psychological perspective, I think going back to what we're talking about before with Thomas Frank, the individualed coaching. I think he put a lot of onus on individuals right an attack and it just kind of killed their confidence. I think that's like a huge part of Tottenam. this whole thing what we're talking about here is that spurs are too good to be in this position and a huge part of that is psychological like these players I think throughout the whole season have just had their confidence hit over and over again. And yeah, it's like what you're talking about that These players, I think In the way that Thomas Frank set up It hurt their confidence. and as soon as you go to a more know possession based manager, you're g give them the ball, you start to see their confidence come back I think it's also worth talking about the injuries they've had too, right? Because In the first half, there was plenty of examples of Well the cameras kept cutting to the players on the sidelines. so You had Christian Romero, you had Dan Kulosevsky, Mohammed Kuris as you mentioned before, but then you have James Madison on the bench as well. And that's just like four very good players who you lose them and it impacts your ability to do a lot of this stuff. So there's definitely mitigating factors for this, but yeah, I think it's it's one of those ones where you just get in all of these differentnt aspects just end up converging at one point and it becomes very, very hard to do anything with it. Yeah. Okay. Well, look there's a bit more about spurs to st, but in the meantime to a cheeky Rondo producer Nathan. Jonish, would you want to shout to me or whisper to me and then I can tell the audience what the topic of today's Rondo is? to resolve our audio issues. J also for fun. Oh, I see. you mean for an advertisement break.. I'd like nothing more. What if a marginal gain unlocked greater performance What if an insight in data could change everything At ArAamco, our focus on detail helps us deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Because margins aren't marginal, they're where we can truly push the limits of what's possible. ArAamco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. learearn more at arramco. com. Hey, Pablo Torere here. As a sports journalist, I've covered global sports for many years now. And there iss one thing that I can promise you Nothing compares to the World Cup And this time it is even better thanks to McDonald's, You have the chance to take home one of nine legendary cups when you order the FIFA World Cup meal The cups feature some of the biggest legends football like David Beckham, Terry Hon Ree, and Ronald Dinio, Christian Palisk Laminia Mal and Alfonso Davies. Right now, get one of nine leegendary cups when you order the FF World Cup meal only at McDonald's at participating McDonald's only for a limited time while supplies last, All rights reserved, copyright twenty twenty six, McDonalds at the FIFA World Cup, twenty twenty six One second, you're enjoying your day off. The next, your phone buzzes. a window's been broken at home. You're miles away. In one second, everything can change. That's why ADT's professionally installed security systems monitor your home at twenty four seven. They're backed by the most company operated monitoring centers in the industry, so you're always supported during an emergency When every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADt. com to learn more Hey, wasn't that a great? was one of the all time great breaks there Advertisements. Hey, prodroucer Nathan, Sh I tell the audience what the Rndo is and then you can tell us afterwards what the topic is Yes. He said yes. Okay. Now welcome to the Rndo. Here's how the Rndeo works. I ask a question, usually it's me, and actually I've started this incorrectly because today it's not me. A question is asked with multiple correct answers. Today, the person asking the question is producer Nathan. He doesn't have a microphone. he's gonna shout it anyway. And then we go r around in a circle over here and we give Correct multiple answers. If we are incorrect or give an incorrect answer, if it's John or Alex, they are immediately ejected from the game. If it's me, I make up a rule that allows me to stay in the game for a little bit longer until I am bored. If I take too long, or nothing happens, but if John and Alex take too long, something terrible happens to their families. I don't know exactly what it is, but it's something bad. Anyway, that's how the Rondo works. The last person standing has to answer one more question correctly, and then they're named Rondo Dell Ray, veryery excited. Have you done Rndo before? No, this is my debut. I'm quite nervous. It's Barker' Rndo debut? Okaykay, I'll play it fair. It's fair play on Barker's debut. How about that? Producer todayason what is the category question today, please, sir? My beloved Tottenham Hotspur remain in the Premier League. He said My beloved Tottenam Hotspur remain in the Premi League. Certain other clubs do not. Certain other clubs do not. Who is in the championship twenty six twenty seven? Who's in the twenty six twenty seven Championship? C? Okay, can it start with me? Yes. Bolton? Yes. veryy room to take that from Aict Rerexham Yes. Yes John says Reximo. Norwich Yeahep. Yes U Southampton, in theory. legal At this moment they are. Yes. Millwall. Yes. Sheffield United. Yes Um Hutdsfield. No No Where are atosphere? then make one Good Lord, what happened to Hutersphere? Where D did David Wagner leave? It's Incredible scenes. OkayK, I'm out of the Roa. becausecause you gott to respect it. It's Barker's first Roa. John Middlesborough. Middlesborough? Lincoln We getting a guess on Lincoln? Are we getting a guess on John's next one? Derby County. Yes. Burnley Yeah. It's very impressive. The way Alex does it without any laptop is very impressive. West Ham Yeah. Of course. I forgot about the relegor wes. Yeah. Nice? Yes he's taking his time, producer Nathan. o No, I know. I was gonna say butt burn Rver I don't think they know. Maybe they are Lot No, they're definitely lower. He said Lot? No, I said Lot. I said Lot. Lot? fiveive Oh Three. Two Blackbone Rvers. Oh my work. John, it works on John every time when you count down from five. He always pulls one out of the bag in the end of. Now get into the marker of anger. Mer This wee good, this way, this big, this way. Card of City Yeahes. Oh yes, Cardiff City, correct. Swansea Yes. West Brom Yes Spark' gonna be killing you. K your Y do we? How many names many have we given so far Nathan, how many are left? There are seven ls There's only seven left. Wow You guys have done very well. I'm just filling for time a little bit so that Barker gets a bit more time. Yeah. I think you've been kind M. No no, hang on,. He's had way less time than John had to get Blackburn. Way less time. Come on, Barker. You can do it Say a team. Charlton for Charlton a League one What did he say? He said Chelton. Are they league one? No. They I should forfeit. That's not fair. They all count. debut. It's a debut, John. Birmingham City. Yeah. You screwed up. I can't help you know. I can't be. I' give me a countdown. that's fair enough. I'm trying to think what the correct answers could be here no no no Who did I say Bolton play the last playo final that they lost? U Five Stoke City. Y Oh, this is so down to the w. F clubs remaining. Four clubs remaining. Incredible Almost asough they we were doing something more complicated than naming the teams that were in the championship No. H No I said keep here, I didn't I Chat's got them. the' not going to do a Jackpit Brook. Bye Ohool Three. Tw One. ay team Say any team. Say team go, sayay team Barushia Munch and Glan. There we go. Well next one would have been Portsmouthay in there. They are in there and you need your bonus and you got it. Congratulations. there we go. Well done, Alex Barker. right. How am I the only person in the room clapping? Thank you. I'm still shaking from you go Dave. So apart from Portsmouth, who are the remaining what three teams? Three teams hadristol City, Bristol City Bron North.ron North End Watford? Okay. Hey, thanks, producer, Nathan. That was fun. There we go There we go. Well, there you go. You can be right your Rndo Delright. How does it feel? It's somewhat cheaty, but I'll take it. John is cheating by having lots of knowledge that he's accrued over time. He also has a laptop. I'm not very good at accessing knowledge., you're very good at being at least fifteen years older than Alex Barker.'s true. You've been around a lot longer fifteen years. John may very well been cheating. We't know I don't know. It's he had his laptop open the whole time The the chat noticed that as well They were very skeptical, very skeptical. I don't think they did, I just saw them I thought I'd say that for fun. I'm trying to plant a seed, you know For what? For the next time I do Rondo del Ray. That's right ye. Have you ever won the Rondo? No. You've never won it. You must have won it at some point. No. Yeah that's true. you're good in other ways, aren't you It's true. and listen, the nerds are also Should we do a Rndo things I'm good at? Yeah' be over pretty quickly. Football tactics appearing quizzical when confeding I don't even think I'm good at cycling to be honest. sort of being a bit pedantic Qite good. Well, teechnically there it is. Now, bringing your book up for promotional purposes. You haven't done yet,n't? haven't? haven't I've got a I don't know, maybe I burned out too early. Do you think the outcome of today's various games and the final league positions are better or worse for your book financially like I have this phrase that I say the book prevails regardless of nototion. And the book has prevailed, I think this season. It's come out quite nicely for the narrative that I paint, so I'm feeling pretty Pre pretty I'm feeling pretty. It's feeling pretty. Oh so pretty Yeah I was a pretty pretty end. Yeah, and we can't say it, I don't think. What is the word? What it's gay, isn't it? Is it? Yeah. Is that the word? I always said it was Rry. I don't know why, that's just. Maybe maybe that's another line. In my head, that's what it is. Anyway, you know I'm going on holiday to Rye. I shouldn't say that. You got so mad the last time I said where you were going on holiday. Don't find me in Rye, anyone. Okay, fine. Where am I picking up from, prodroucer Nathan, after the Rondo Oh you're typing something. It's bright. ot right or gay. It's bright Okay. I I I think different different verse might a different verse it might be. I think it might be. Anyway, that's fine. a different meaning back in the day. Now O, picking up from yes. Let's continue talking about sppurs a little bit. We've a couple of other topics to get ono today, but Spurs definitely the biggest topic of the day with there with their survival. John, you mentioned the idea earlier that the current Spurs squad might actually not be that ideal for Do you think that's true I was just reading There's actually two different sets of lyrics, the nineteen fifty seven Broadway lyrics. nineteen sixty one film lyrics. In the film, it's pretty and witty and gay. and in the Broadway lyrics, I feel pretty and witty and bright. R. And I pity any girl who isn't me today I feel charming. Oh, so charming. It's how charming I feel. M T was in the musical, eh? And so pretty that I can hardly believe I'm real Right? Wow, that's am opposite you. You feel so uneducated I'm just reading the lyrics out don I don't know what anything about anything that's been five minutes. Is anyone in the room ever felt so pretty that they can't believe they're alive? It's quite an interesting philosophical conundrum, isn' it? Can you feel so pretty that you don't feel real Do you know what I quite like about aging Maybe you'll come to find this later in life is I could actually suspiciously old to how old he looks. Yeah How old are you? Do you want to guess? No. Okay. I'm afraid of that. I'm twenty six. Oh that's about how old I thought he was. You did say that he was fifteen years. Younger than me, right? Which is true. you are I'm forty.ot forty one, right? Okay Yes, sure, there you go. that's a way you spell it out, it's the wor hp. Now what was I saying? I was saying The thing you love about aging, which Barker won't know because he's young. Yes, do you know what? I've been dracted for just long enough from my caveat that I realized it wasn't good idea to talk about that. So I won't talk about that. And instead, I'll go back to saying, you think the sppurs squad are un ideeal for Roberto Deserve, John I mean, yeah, I think that's pretty clear. Why Why is that It's not clear to me. Why is it the case? Is it because they're They only got forty one points this season. Yeah, I mean that's well, that's the outcome of it being un ideeal, I suppose. but yeah, with Deserbia, I suppose he is going to be trying to implement a form of possession football at Spurs what he wants is players who are good on the ball. Yeah, but obviously his big thing is when teams are willing to step up press then he wants to bait opponents forward and play through that press and then exploit the space in behind. It's quite it's very different really from what Guadiolo wants to do right? because with Guadiolo he wants to just force opponents back, retain possession, force opponents into their own box and then break down the low block that he produces that's quite an elegant solution, right? Because if you are technically very good, mean Guardiolo's solution? Yeah. Because if you have lots of technically good players, you arere going to be able to possess the ball well. But you also when you arrive in that situation where you're breaking down the low block, you're also going to have the players to be able to cause problems there.ight Deserby kind of goes back to the old logic. The old logic is well when when you're attacking when you attack big spaces because it's easier to score. And when you're defending, you want to defend in small spaces because it's harder for the opponent to do anything. I like to call it, you come here to me football. Yeah, you know, because they put the defenders put their studs on the ball and deseser Yeah come here. So But obviously if you're doing that the old way, the old way is just low block and counter, right? whereere you just sit deep in your own box You allow the opponent to attack you over and over and over again. and then when you win the ball back, you can then attack those spaces, but you're giving the initiative to the opponents when you're doing that. So Deserbi's big thing and again, another elegant solution is to say, well, why don't we try and produce those conditions with the ball? So if we'll sit deep with the ball, we'll bait opponents forward and then we'll play through that press and then we have the same kind of conditions as you have when you're playing low block and counter that transition those transition conditions where there's a lots of space to attack. And so we sometimes call them artificial transitions because you're producing the conditions without actually having to lose the ball and win it back, which is what makes it so risky. So yeah to do that, you need to have incredibly technical players and if you don't have that then you end up doing what Spurs were doing in the last few games of the season where Yeah yeah, they they just have to go along and then and then they're in this scenario which we saw with Everton at the end where because spurs weren't able to possess the ball they were shelling it along and Everton and they didn't want to give up space that they were s deep and then they were just allowing Everton to come to them and play balls into the box. almost became like open place set pieces over and over and over again and it becomes incredibly risky. So yeah, he's going to have to do something with that squad in order to bring in the kind of players that he wants. Well having said that, you know the game is evolving and I think it would be interesting to see the sorts of Well, theort football that Deserby is going to implement as suppose, but also the kind of profiles that are good for that. And it's one final thing on this Often Deserb has been operating at teams where club or sorry, where they have less finances, right? So he was he was at Brighton and he was at Saswallow and Chateauagignnetste because I suppose relatively they had a decent amount of money. But He almost sets up playing this way because he his he doesn't have the supreme technical players to be able to do the stuff that Guardiola does, right? that he' at Spurs. Yeah. Yeah. now he's at Spurs. He may have the capacity to bring in better players than he's been able to work with before. and that will probably change his approach because the thing with Desovi's approach is that if you're really good at building like, you know,aing players opponents forward and then hitting the space behind is that teams like fine,'re not going we're not going to be baited up anymore. And what you end up doing then is playing against a lot of low blocks, right? So the point at which Deserbi's football ends is the point at which Guadiola's football begins. I mean, can I ask you a question about what John Jonhns was saying there I think about Deserby's Brighton team, I think that actually was quite a high level of technical skill in that squad. How much better will Spurs have to be in order for Deserby to play in a different way? Be it doesn't I mean I feel as though I believe what John is saying could be the case, but it also feels as though that won't be the case from August. I'm going to semi ignore your question. I'm going to listen to it But instead of Brighton, a different team mine Guns use as an example is Marseille because we did see to French football eventually. You didn't let him and he's found a way of France. I found a way. I do actually think it it's relevant because we saw what Marseille Deserby took. like me and John have watched Marseille under Deserby and he did take more of a Thank if I had to said Guardiolore Resque approach they resembled City in that way. They weren't always baiting the press because exactly what John said, like they couldn't. French teams would just sit off them. And I think at Marseille, you did see quite a lot of technical players come in. they weren't on the same level as PSG And that was a way for Deserby to kind of work out problems in a way yeah, Tottenham Squad might not let him Um I think as well with Marseill two, what we saw Marseill two, there's a second thing. I didn't know they had that system. It's a reason actually I was going to say, why I'm quite I'm more positive for Deserbi andndersperson I thought ty be because some insight for listeners and viewers, of course, when we did a show on Deserbi me and Joh, we spent about what four hours watching Deserbi's marseille, the goals they conceded. And relative to how boring we are as human beings, we were falling off the chair with laughter at the goals they were conceding. And our conclusion was we're usually really reserved right, but our conclusion was Derbi just can't seem to coach a very strong defense. evenven his best Marse team with just letting in super easy goals. The sppurs have been generally pretty solid and that kind of The take I had him I'll say under Deserby and I guess he could say to accept Brighton as well was it seemed like he spent every day in training, coaching in possession and nothing out of possession. and it feels like it Ttenham. he's kind of broken that theory I had in my head and now I have a bit more hopeful and thinking Maybe they can be defensively sound and work on some of the possession stuff. They'll be a really well rounded team What do you think they'll finish next season? I know that's a stupid question because it's the final day of the previous season and night We obviously I mean, listen, we're going we're going to do our final points of bad game tomorrow in which we will find out. the results of our full table predictions at the beginning of the season. And I guarantee you there'll be many of us that Mars and Marsleet. I know how stupid that question is, but I guess let me rephrase it slightly and ask you instead. forgetting about their specific position. Do you think This squad with a few additions, with a few fewer injuries, which I think I should say to acknowledge Nathan's coring over there in the corner and Derby is enough to get spurs back into the The top six or are we talking about like would the top half Finnish be good? Eone be happy with that? I mean, I don't even know where to begin with my expectations. Yeah, it's a weird one, right? Because there's now two league seasons in a row where they finish in the bottom half of the table near the relegation zone feeles too eager to say they could finish in the top six. But on Nathan's point about injuries and every other Tottenham fan who will say about decisions going against them While they have been bad this season, they have been incredibly unlucky. I feel like their squad at the moment and their potential in normal times is probably mid table. But if they don't have European football next season, which they won't and the luck goes their way. You can see them climbing back up the table. So I think my answer to that is in a normal season, probably like eighth to twelfth, but things could easily go their way and they stop finish top six potentially D deffinitely not Champions foball forilo. We've just come off the back of a season where Manchester United had previously had a similar ish kind of season to sppurs. Very similar. They made what four incredible signings and that was enough for them with the no European cave as well to get into the Champions League spots as well.ould you say also that like if Spurs are able to return Kulosevsky and James Madison to fitness and keep them fit for next season, then that's kind of like half of that impact already, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, I think so. It is worth saying that I do feelar with Manchester United they almost took quite a They took a quite sort of direct approach this season. and that started with Amarim as much as it did with Karick And you can make the argument that what they did was they were like, how do we get the most out really short term gains from our approach? And I think the question with them now is going to be how much sustainability can they have in that approach now that they're adding Europe in? So when you apply the same logic to Spurs, I think the question I would have is, to what extent is Durby willing to just do that short term approach where you maybe bring in some dangerous attackers and you're willing to go along and go direct. Or is he going to start implementing some of his his, you know his in possession ideas straight away and maybe take a longer term approach If he does that, then I could see them having you know a few seasons where it just takes them time to fill out the squad with enough players to play that kind of football. It very much depends on how he approaches that. I suspect you'll probably take something closer to the latter approach. and again, you know, Manchester Un had had the ability despite not having Europe to be able to spend quite a lot of money on those three forwards in particular whether or not Spurs are going to be able to do the same thing, I don't know. but yeah, we'll have a much better idea of this at the end of the summer Anything else you want to add about sppurs Anything like you want to talk about u The summer transfer window where you think the areas they might target could be Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm not really thought it through. Are you going to do a sensible transfers video on Spurs? Yeah, absolutely. I think I will. I also think that Spurs are a fun team to do sensible transfers on because I think they're the sort of team that can house they don't make any, so it's easy to anything you suggest is better. But I think as we've said, you know, there's a lot of scope for them to actually change the course of their next season through the transfer window. So that will be fun. They've got a new coach who we don't really know what he's going to do. So again, you don't really know the positions he's going to target. but I mean it's pretty clear that he's going to be slightly more involved than previous coaches according to prodducer Nathan as well. Yeah. Yeahah, I'm sure that, you know, that can often go the wrong way, but it can also work out fine too. if your recruitment department is going through a bit of a bad run, which is what the Spurs one is doing. so maybe not the worst thing in the world. But And you know, I think it's very clear that they're going to have to bring in midfielders because in this run that we've seen them go through, you've seen Deserbi trying to implement Jeral Polinia as a central midfielder who doesn't really fit the skill set of what he might expect from a sort of pivot player for Deserbi. What are you trying to say about the hero, Jal Polinia? Well, I'm not the greatest sppurs midfielder of all. And he scores some incredibly important goals, right? So you can understand why Derby has wanted to get him into the team. he has, particularly from set pieces, he has goal threat. But at the same time, you don't necessarily want him to be in the middle when you're in possession of the ball. So what we've seen him doing is having Pelinia drop into the full back areas and having one or other of the fullbacks. I mean, they've got Pedro Poro on one side and then I guess they were using Nogi there today they they forget get Dragersin, I think he came on as well. He's off full backough centre back. but What you're doing then is you're again, you're thinking about all where is the best Where Wh who's the best profile in each phase of play to be in various positions and Petro Par is obviously a much more technical player. And if you can get him into the midfield than in those in possession phases, then it's going to be good for you. At the same time, once you lose possession of the ball, you then want someone like Jal Polinia in the center of the pitch to break down attacks. So I think it's been quite interesting to see how Deserby has sort of been able to monitor the skill sets in his squad to try and get the most out of them game on game when he's not had the perfect profiles available to him. So Yeah Anything else you want to add about. good. Okay, in which case, let's take another delightful advertisement break. And when we return, we'll touch in very briefly on West Ham. whose fans I'm certain are not watching the liv stream. They have better things to be doing in this moment, AKA looking up all of their new onene thing I will sit next after the ad break, I stop getting ahead of myself. adverts. It's smart to always have a few financial goals, and a really smart one you can set, earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can this Discover automatically matches all the cashback you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. and we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms at discover d. com slash credit card. We spend over forty days of our lives on hold. forty days. Crazy, right? Your customers think so too. It's why Parloa's AI agents are available twenty four seven three hundred sixty five in every language. No wait, just great outcomes. Learn more at Parloa. com Hey, Pablo Torere here. As a sports journalist, I've covered global sports for many years now. 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What I was going to say was Uncle Damian often says that the upside of whenever Norwich get relegated from the Premier League is that the away trips are much more fun in the championship. He's a man who likes to attend as many games as possible and every time they're in a new league, he makes an effort to sort of go around and enjress. What do you think the best West Ham away day could be Next season. We've just played that Rhondo. We know where all the championship teams are now. What's the best one It depends if you love violence because it's obviously Millwoy, if that's the case. And if you' a pacifist, Mill is bottom of the list. It's not very far to go, though, is it? It's not a good away day. might make a fun, exciting bustling Derby game.b You're just crossing you're going on a black wall tunnel. it's hardly very exciting. What about if you are performative enough at the race Course gnd, you could get on TV if you the away day at Wrexham. Yeah. You could ruin this next series, right? That's the beauty of going to the Race Course graround. You could do that, yeah Have a lovely trip to the Northwest to meet Bolton That's fun. Yeah. Or the northeast to go to Middlesborough. Or Preston Northnd also again in the northwest. Anthing else in the northwest U I don't know. We did label a lot of them. I can't remember now. Let's not stop for That's true.re not they're not going to be stoke. They'll get to do the rainy night on a Tuesday in Stoke. That's true Yeah, how about that? Do you know, I always remember this isn't a good story. is wor're saying though, peopleople act as though I tweeted this before, People didn't really like it, but I think you should say it again. people act as though relegation is like the end of the world. And I get that it's really disappointing and stuff, but sure. The reality is is that you still have a football club to support in the following season. They play games And they're probably going to win the championship, right? Yeah. I mean ye. I wouldn't thought so. Yeah. I don't let's see how many of their players leave.. And I don't know what their financial situation is like based on relegation. But yeah I think generally speaking, if you are smart, then you can come back up quite quickly. There's lots of financial incentives for the teams that go down to come back up. And yeah, you know, that's football fandom is not about well I mean, a lot of people probably won't support them in the championship, but like you know, there is an aspect of football fandom, which is you follow the club through thick and thin, right? And like this is the thin parts for for West Ham fans, but there's still there's still enjoyment in that, I think to be found Sure. It's the chat pointing out that Swanz or Cardiff is an international fixture technically. So that's quite fun. That is Wrexham and away day. in America, I'm told. Don't wantna name pointing out that you could get spied on by Southampton. That's very exciting. Isn't it? And then other people are telling you that people are losing their jobs, John at time and therefore That's why I actually don't know if that's true. No idea. I'm sorry for those people Of course. I think that goes without saying. My intention of bringing up was not to force you to say that. Although that just has kind of worked out that way, hasn't it? I did I do feel sorry for them I agree. You't like to see people losing their jobs, do you? No, although you would love to lose yours some days. Some days. I'm just aiming for retirement. That's not losing your job, is that's sort of passing it on. That's resting it, I think, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. I'm terrified of retirement. Really? Yeah I've just spent the last two days sitting out in the sun in Beer gardens reading books. It's been great. I don't like I like reading once I've got going, you know? but I just don't ever get going. I don't know can't How many books have you read this year, Bucker? Oh, not actually. Yeah. either No me either, me either. I can't do. I wish I could. I wish I could. I was reading many books every year then this year. Do you just findally blow into one? You don't take anything in so I took a break. That's right. There really is a huge difference between Harry Potterter. There's a fantastic book that's coming out,. It's called Harry Potter eight. Pet Guardiola and the Har Potter and Harry Potter. Guardiola, That's a plot twist. Harry Potter eightight Pp Guardiola. A story of cannibism in the Premier League. Very exciting Now, what are we talking about Oh yes, we were talking about what happen. Do you know how mad Steve will be that we talked over each other, then? He'd be very upset. I was a little annoyed as well because I was making a great joke and so were you. We were both making We were talking over Fun comments at the same time. Sorry, but there was no space for each other. wasas there? We should make more space for each other. I'm not supposed to be the funny one, so it's my bad, sorry. You're not supposed to be the funny one, but sometimes sometimes it just bleeds outouse. Sometimes you can't keep it in This is a hard job is pretendingending to be the nerd. Yeah. All of the scripts I have to learn from all of this information in it. That's good. There we go. Now, West Ham It's a kind of a shame really. They did everything they could today. They won three nills. I'm a big fan of that being the only thing on the running order and you just read it out. Did I read it? You said They did everything they could.. And the thing is, John, they did do everything they could today. They did everything they could today. They did I also feel as though they improved remarkably in the second half of the season. and were it not for some unexpected things. So for example, one of them being Sundland finishing seventh. No one would have seen that. Forest being theort third team in that battle a few weeks ago, know team that I don't think with the exception of a couple of weeks, it never really looked like a team with that kind of quality was going down. know Daniel Farker's incredible formation change and then the resulting forty one wins in a row or whatever. Every other team that it might have been J just evacuated, didn't they? And they were left with sppurs who, although it was funny, it was funny to think it, it never really felt like apart from that one time, it never really felt like they were definitely going down. So I feel as though in many other seasons, thirty nine points would have been enough to stay up, although it isn't the famous forty. What's your perspective on West Hams season? Oh it's a mix. I mean I'm from a West Ham area, right? I mean The training ground's ten minutes away from me They've been mismanaged, I think the last couple of years. They had a really good opportunity after selling Del and Rice withinning the conference l to kick on. I think Westam founds have fallen out of love with the club with how things have gone since then. This season I'm a little reluctant to be too sympathetic, partly down to the things I've just said, but you say it didn't seem realistic spurs would go down. West Ham was still in a good position until a couple of weeks ago And the game against Newcastle I think is when they really lost it. That was a big one. It's the way they bombed that fixture for me they started that Nudo started that game with a back five and no midfielder just got completely run over, made subs twenty minutes into amend it. And then they were tunil down, I think sixty minutes in and he went for essentially like a three two five, which I know is like a tacticical formation, but that was basically what he was doing back three including their left backackers running forward and they immediately conceded it again. If think was one they actually went down to t anyway. I think they were in a good position N did revive to some extent, but I'm reluctant to be like oh, you know, that poor them they still deserve to go down Fair enough Jon Yeah I mean, like you say they're incredibly lucky given that off the back of the last three seasons, the promoted sides have just gone straight back downredibly unlucky. Yeah, unlucky, sorry, that ye, that happened. and you know it's looking like at this buton and again, we don't know what's going to happen, but you know the same thing looks like it might happen next season with the teams have been promoted. So it's just you have your one off year in the year when that happens. it's hard not to feel a little bit unlucky And as you say, right, being in a relegation battle as a team like that, you kind of think, oh, it's okay, we'll be up against Snderland or something for that last spot or leads. And in the end it ended up being against Spurs and you just, you know, there's there's there's a there's a whole aggregation of like events that's just pretty unlikely. But yeah, I agree with with Alex in the sense that there's a lot of teams in the Premier League now who I guess have been comfortable for a while and there's all so much changing and can't you just cannot rest on your laurels in the Premier League. So there's a potential that I guess they go down and they use this as a chance to sort of fix infrastructure problems, rebuild the squad, etcetera. And you know, they'll be back. they've been down before in recent memory and come back up as well. But it's a pretty bad couple a pretty bad week for Jared Bowhen isn't it left out of the England squad and then relegated. Yeah. ye.'s a good one professionally. He's been fantastic for them as well.. a lovely go to there. Yeah. But I'm sure I'm sure he' mayaybe he'll stay with them and see out the championship, but you know he'll have offers from elsewhere as well. He has the qualities to play elsewhere if he so chooses. A mention in the chat as well, Nick Hamlin said do you remember when they led Chelsea by two goals and then lost if they'd held out? for victory in that game that they would have stayed up as well. So the margins were narrow As producer Nathan knows all too well. Now, before we finish, we wanted to have a quick little conversation about the Premier League season generally and whether it was boring or not because this is a debate that people have been having online, in pubs, in living rooms and also on airopplanes, in waiting rooms, the dentist at where else have they been having this debate? They've got golf courses and other venues as well. The London Stadium. The London Eye, probably. They've been having it on the London Eye or the London dungeon.ave you ever been the London Eye? I've been the Londonye.' never been on it.aybe not? No. Is it worth it? Do you know a for a little bit of the top, pretty cool. You know And it's also fun because it doesn't stop moving. Did you know that? You just sort of get on and get up? I mean, that sounds more fun Like a ski lift. It's like a ski lift ye Yeah And then when you're at the top, you go, oh, this is really cool. And then you realize,h, it takes like another ten minutes to get back down again. and it's just quite boring. C be warm in there. You're in there with loads of people. ussually there' people you don't want to be in there with. you know, I've only been in once, but One of the pods is missing at the moment. I don't know if you've know Yeah Where's it gone? I presume they're sericing or something. It's they're servicing the pod? I presume so. How about that? Maybe maybe someone stole it. What's your favourite London attraction? Oh It's a great question. It is good, isn't it? And also let's not pretend that it's not better here than elsewhere. Yeah. This isn't a football podcast that likes to pretend that the whole country matters. It doesn't. I mean it does, but not for fun. What's your favourite London? What's my favorite London attraction? A I'm a big fan of the ICA, you know? The cinema, I don't care too much for the art in there, But I enjoy going to the cinema ICion, isn't it? What about you, Barer? you got one? Puff from the London Stadium obviously? Puff from London Stadium. I think the towower of London's very good. L it's still very iconic. Sure. things you've got Staint Paul's, which is a very iconic building, but it's incredibly boring If you go in the toower of London go ear at little all, you' got some good history there. YeahQite fun. I think that's a good one. I have the reverse opinion of that. Oh reallyally? Yeah. I enjoy St. Paul's because one of my favourite I keep starting stories that I can't finish telling. I was gonna say one of my favourite things to do. Maybe it's fine. Yeah, it's probably fine. is I like to visit I can't do. It's a live stream, Joe. It's a live st. If it was on the podcast, I would have just said that and then Steve Hanky would have gone may's in your head. He's in head I went to the Tower of London last year. Hanky Hanky out of my head!y, he's in your head. He's in my head. Yes, so now I understand what you're saying. I went to the Tower of London last year and it was on the hottest day of the year, mind. So when I say it was hot It's because it was the hardottest day of the year. It wasn't specifically the toower of London's fault, but I felt all faint in the middle of the White Ter You know, V I felt very famous the history on you. Well, there was a quue to ent the whole thing was a queue and a cue on the way back down again And for one you know, I had one of those moments where I had a little panic where I thought, I can't get out of here. I'm trapped. And then for about thirty years not the first person in the toower of London to have that panic. It' true. Maybe I was embodied by historical poltergeist of some kind. That's in Berlin.. was embodied by Anne Beryin. I think my favourite London attraction if this counts is the Thames itself. I think if you do the river trip along the Thames, it's fantastic Not even a day out, you can do it in a few hours, but you can go all the way from Greenwich on one end to Batterssea Power Station at the other. and those two places both well worth visiting in my opinion. He's sponsored by Uber Boat the way. But I do have a book that's coming on august twenty twent. my God. You know, my wife's favourite London attraction is the John Sones Museum. you, I've not been there.'s on it's good. What's it called? It's located next to Lincoln's in Field. Lincolnsn Fields. There you go That's great away, D'a? Ta for London Pod are you enjoy this prodider Nathan? No. There's a shake of the head, a confused halfway thumb. What would we say, Oh yes. Was it boring? The conversation? Well, we've s repeated away from that, haven't we? No There's two signs to this. One says yes and wait stick around tntill the end of the video to find out what the other says. Alex Barker, let's start with you because you expressed an interest in this conversation earlier. You said Maybe I'm wrong that you thought it was boring I think it's a little boring. I think it's exaggerated because every team barring what Arsenal and a handful of others like Sunderland hated the season because they felt like they were underperforming because they lost every other week because the league's so competitive, right? Right But I do think The first two thirds of the season, I didn't enjoy watching the Premier League as much so tune into games I very quickly chunew out I'd say. Because of the style of football, the type of football. Yeah, I think from the style of football because I mean it depends the way you watch football because I'm a massive nerd like John. I tend to watch football. what tactically thing could I latch ont to to make myself feel intelligent And when it's no I do for the record. And when it's just two teams lumping the ball like very directly, it's very easy to fall out and go anything can kind of happen here. that's the way it tend to be it. I think the last third was a bit different though. I will say that. Okay. Why didd you say that? You ask what is a team I wouldd use as an example. They're the team that get labeled with being really boring, right And Rtes has definitely going for a very risk free approach. But we saw A few weeks ago, I think Arsenal fans putting pressure on the club. There was a lot of anxiety in the stadium and when it like they really were going to bottle the title. It felt like Artetta's answer to that was to actually play a bit more free flowing football. He Miles the Viskellion and played him in midfield. and it's hard to like quantify but just watching arsenal play in the last few games. it's not felt like a team just trying not to take risks. especially in the Fal photo fil it's felt like that they've been piling players forward a bit more, a few more rotations. It's just been a bit more easy to watch. And I think one that shows becausecause of the way the atmosphere at the Emirates has transformed is that going forward, maybe we can see teams actually being a bit more attractive in their style of play because like with Spurs, when you play in this direct fashion that can be a bit boring, the fans don't get ons side. If you're losing, there's nothing else to latch ono Whereas if you try to play quite nicely and you still lose it's like well, we still we still played alright, there's still something to latch onto. I mean, the only thing that I think I agree with all of that except The only thing I'm skeptical about is this the idea of playing more attractive football. The person, the coach that I associate with saying that the most of the last few years was An Postikoglu at Spurs, who for better or worse, except for and I'll remind you of this producer Nathan, except for the Euro League final, where he abandoned everything he believed you he held on to that sort of that same approach the whole way whole way through even when it wasn't working. And there was this great sort of insistence on playing attractive football And I wonder if that's done some damage to the brand of not attractive football, but the idea of playing attractive football at all costs because it's It's gone very poorly for certain teams in recent times. I don't know what do you think I think when we talk about aesthetics and attractive football, generally what we're talking about is what are the elite teams doing And I think in the last fifteen years, That was always some kind of version of like control football where you're not only trying to control the ball when you have it, you're also trying to avoid having to defend by keeping it longer. And As a result, because the elite teams are doing it, it then becomes accepted that this is beautiful football, right And I think what we've started seeing in the last few seasons is that kind of control approach falling away a little bit. And the last few seasons, you can make the argument this happened last season as well that The elite sides are struggling to almost have a tactical identity, right? And so yeah, I do think that I found this season very interesting. Me too. Precisely because and not just because of the competitiveness, but also precisely because we've had so many teams trying to refine their identity. Yeah. So for example, man's a lot of meat for you on the burn. Yeah, right, exactly. Andete and you know, that's part and parcel of my job, right? And you know, I've been writing a book about this now., have you? I have I' sure you haven't told us. It may shock people to hear. But Harry Potter and the spepectre of PEP. That wasle Amazon. That was really good because it meant that I was focusing constantly on this question of like how are these teams tactically reinvented themselves. if you look at the way that City were playing at the beginning of the season versus how they're playing now it's chalk and cheese. they' play completely different styles. You can make the same argument that Arsenala did the same thing. I think the beginning of the season Arsenala were very tactically diverse and then at some point I think Ara started started getting worried that they weren't going to do it. And I think they this is the way you win. Yeah, Yeah. and they they did what we used to see happening all the time. I mean, if you remember sixteen seventeen when Chelsea won the league, they they got to ahead in the first half of the season playing some O football and then they absolutely ground their way through the second half of the season winning one Nils. Yeah. And I think what has happened is we've gone back to that period of football. I think that it used to be the case that you could control games so much that you could dominate the way that City did, whichich was also quite boring. Yeah. And people hated that as well because it became so inevitable. But I think you think everybody hates everything. Do you think Alex Barker would say he was bored whatever the results Yeahah I mean, this this is what the problem with Gen Zs isn't it? They I was they have no attention span. Yeah. They don't have he's admitted himself that he doesn't have Any kind of knowledge, you said that before, I'm pretty sure, right? Can we ask you some questions about Gen Z? We to do this for a while. Yout see Gen Z? No, I don't think so. I'm a ninety nine birth, which I think is an in between with anyone Gen Z. Can I ask you some questions? What I've done is I've just googled What's wrong with Gen Z? and I'm going to put these to you now, okay The first and incidentally this has come from the AI overview on Google. So you know instantly that this is millennial irresponsibility. But as a starting point, the first thing is the housing and cost of living crisis, Alex. Apparently, skyrocketing rent and property prices make financial independence and homeownership out of reach for many. Is that true for you There's a good question. It's a good question. I think true it's not true for me I'm moving into a house I've bought next week. Fake news. Fake news Z it is for the grand majority of G Zd'. G Zers, GenZ. Gen Zedders? Yes, it is very much true. Apparently there's a workplace disconnect here as well, Alex. It says there's aconnect a distinct clash in values between Gen Z and employers. Do you experience that? I'm constantly fighting on This is a very depressing. Acording to list, Alex, there's mental health and burnout. Gen Zed reports significantly higher rates of anxiety, depression and stress than older generations. How are you feeling? I can't say that one. You can't say it aloud. And there's also reduced social and soft skills. Noinly that's fine I justroduc a Nford knowningind the camera. Two out of four. We got two out of four on the Gen Z list. highigh five They still do it. They still do high fives Jont you see the younger this younger generation seems very confused about the whole high fives situation. For my cost of being everything tolder, can I counter one of your previous points? Please please. Thank you. Well I Google how do I get a boomer on my podcasts? Excellent On Thomas Frankl, you said that Andrew Baser Coglu has done like damage to the attractive football idea. Sure. I think you could argue the opposite. and maybe this is racistly biased right? but I'm going to say I'm the owner of a top six eight Premier League Cub and I've got an angry fan base and I'm trying to climb up the table. I could look at Thomas b, I could look at Anrewoskagu first I think, well, you know Look at what's happened to Tottenam Hotspur. He he didn't have the right level of players. He spoke it about how he wanted, you know top level signings. he was given teenagers in Lucas Bergwell for example. fans fans of Tottenham still like him. I can get behind him. I can see it here. He has a good interview. you know, he's very charismatic. I could hire him. For Thomas Frank, I know it'sasonly biased but I look at him and I think what is his idea? Like there's nothing to buy into and at the last club he went to and tried to play his football, not only did it not go well, the fans despised him by and large. So I actually think that right now this season, It's a better example of why someone like Asge Postter Couloo is more hirable than someone like Thomas Frank Fair enough. And yeah, I mean, Arsenal fans that booed Michel Areta on a number of occasions this season, right? And I think, you know, there's lots of reasons for why that happened. But I think part of it comes down to the aesthetics of it, right? And it's not just that oh, this football isn't attractive, it's the football often feels very It feels very fragile. It feels as though you're constantly on a knife edge all the time Um So yeah, but again, again, you can make an argument that Postor Coglu you know made gave a bad name to attacking football, but at the same time like a good attacking football has always had to have some kind of of possession responsibility as well. right Yeah. And I have to say I thought that Posto Koglu's football was incredibly mid, John. Are you reading off the comments? No. I think I thought his idea that they could do a good attacking football was Dulu. And you know, I think by the end, I think people realize that And you know, they became progressively less able to attack, right? Because they were also being put into negative game states because they didn't defend well enough, right? It was much harder for them justay. So I definitely think that that comes into it. But like I say, likeic Are you just using Jen'sZ worords? I'm just engaging with you in a conversation with improved soft skills. Sor please continue. please continue. I don't even know what I was saying anymore, Yeah, I kind of feel as though the biggest aspect that as I said before is that we don't really know what aesthetic football looks like right now. And whenone you know when everyone is going making it highly dual focused and everyone's going man to man, it's kind of hard to know exactly what like aesthetic football looks like. We had the PSG Byen game recently where essentially you've just got like the most incredible players in the world just going hammer and tongs at each other ninety minutes But there's a lot of other football clubs who aren't that and who don't have the players to make that kind of football aesthetically pleasing. And I think you can make the argument that actually When you put your Surs versus Evertons doing that kind of football, it becomes very unattractive very quickly. So yeah, it's sort of hard to know what's going to end up transpiring. I thought what was most interesting about that as well was that Vincent compompany came out after that first leg of the game. and when he was it was put to him, you know, will there be more control in the second leg? He was like there'll be even more, even more of this style of football and then the second leg was one nail or something because both teams realized that Maybe that wasn't the correct way to approach the game and or that it's possible and or any team could win were the same approach to be taken again. I I think that's interesting. I will say to draw a line under this, I understand why some people have found it to be boring from an aesthetic perspective this season. I certainly have at times also. I think the narrative interest has far outweighed that boredom for me. What was to play for, the number of twists and turns in the title race, the fact that there were still things to be decided on the final day, how deep we went into the season before we knew everything. You know alsoso being able to watch that PSG buy in game, for example, for something slightly different. It's nice to watch a European game between two teams I haven't watched all season and go, o, this is different to what I've seen for the rest of the season. I've enjoyed football this year I would say much more than last season. Variety lot We've talked about variety right? Variety. And I think the big complaint that people had maybe five years ago was homogeneity. Everyone was trying to be Pp in it sure. It just led to a lot of repeatable games happening over which It is not the case not the case. P I don't know if it's fair to say PP has been surpassed, but there are branches off that are now going moving in slightly different directions, right? Well moving in the same direction in different lanes. And of course, I think it will be even more interesting next season when Pepp is, the kind of makeway isn't even there. Okay, Alex, two minutes on Bolton, please. who of course they won in the League one playoer final today and listener Robert Turner asked, I think in Jest if there was any chance that we wouldd talk about Bolton at the beginning of the podcast The answer is possibly yes, depending on what you say. Depends on how many tangents you guys are able to create. Anything I say about Bolton is probably copied from my dad Peter.reat Do you know he's famous. you can Google him. He found a bedroom taps loophole and he made the government change the law. P. Peter Barka. How about that? There you go. Yeah This is what he do I'm not sure he's on Wikiped, but he's tpeing on an independent it will definitely come up. Peter's version of events of Bolton is youious see when got relegated about through a Bolton fan. Yes. Peter Barker. The man whose bedroom tax loophole could help up to forty thousand housing benefit claimants to get their money back. Oh, there's a picture of him here. There you go. you can Google him. There we are Do't look like you. It's a great way for me to burn time time It's a great way for me to burn time while I remember what he said about Bolton. No, they got relegated just over a decade ago and they almost went bust in the championship, but they boughtought out. I think like a local business owners has formed a consortium to save them and they've just been they went under League two got back up to Lue one and they've been they're quite Um I people play quite fun football actually. they went for a couple of managers who played, I feel it known as Bowlcealona League one playing very fun football. Got it. And yeah their coach was the coach from Barrow who who got the term Barrow Salona coached, right? I think? Yes, that's the exact one. I think the coach now is Stehven Schumacer, I want to say Okay a different coach then. Yeah. and they they thumped Stockport County who I think they've lost two playoff finals in two consecutive seasons and now Bolton are in the championship. I'm a bit Reserve to see if they'll stay up because I think the finan is just going to hit. I think they are very small ownership. So why does he how well they do? I don't know the topic super well. We have to get Peter on. There you go. Okay welleter Peter Barker welcome anyime. And Robert turnurner in the chance saying surely Joe remembers he and never yes, that's true. I was desperately trying to remember his name because I interviewed him for the Tapa Paker on Sunday. It was embarrassing that In't remember But that was an interesting, that was an interesting chat. There we go. Congratulations to Bolton. John you'll enjoy this. Bolton in the catchmment area where I was born, of course. I could have been a Bolton fan