Football Jokes and Closing Remarks

Granger knows, when you're a procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Light's about to fail, filters ready to clog, H back on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Ganger, click Granger. com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done This episode of the TFo Football podcast is sponsored by Boss, businesswar provider for the US men's n National soccer team Long before kickoff, the performance has already begun. For the players, the crest is not simply won, it's earned. Boss understands what it takes to build something worthy of a crest. cononstant refinement, precision in every stitch. 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Beat the clock on a campaign with a little help from AI And connect with customers in real time, like you've trained for it your whole career. That's contentful. Wld class digital experiences, built fast, built beautifully. Create and launch personalised content in an instant across every channel your customers for watching No chaos, no limits, just open themes Take your shot at contentful d. comot Hello and welcome to the TFO Football podcast. I'm Joe Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by John MackKenzie. Hello Joe Devine. How's it going okay? Yeah, I'm feeling good. I enjoyed beating you EA FC. Please don't ever mention that ever again. you spent quite a lot of time in the tactic cupboard today? Yes, practising to beat you. Yeah. Okay. How about that? Now a returning guest in Jonathan Shannan Hello. All right, how's it going? Pretty good. Great. I'm gonna say great. Pretty good and great. Pty good and great. I'm upgrading to great. Fantastic. And also we deliriously enjoyed the company today of stand upp comedian, Michael Oawali. Hello. Hibody how's it going. Thanks for having me. I also enjoyed meeting you FC FC twenty six. They're lining up to take shots at me. I thought I was better at the game. It turns out I am not better game. Now we're recording this podcast in the immediate aftermath of the USA Australia game, for which we did our live watch along on the Athletic FC by the way, if you want to watch that back, although I feel as though people kind of turned that Turned that game off maybe seventy eighty minutes in. It did seem like after USA went two goals up. I'm getting ahead of myself look at the analysis.re you are drunk on analysis I can't help myself. Now. what did we talk about on today's show? Well, upcoming is the following. USA versus Australia, I get even drunker on analysis. We talk a little bit about Mexico beating South Korea to become the first team into the knockout stages. Canada also They win their first E Men's World Cup game. That's a bit of fun. We talk about that. we talk about Jesse Marsh, we play a Rndo. We try to squeeze all of that into the first half, which I have assured producer Ryan will not happen, but we're going to try we're going to try anyway. What else have we got? We have in the second half, we're going to have a broad conversation about whether or not this World Cup so far has been good for the country of the United States of America That's going be fun. And also we're going to play some points of bad and we have some excellent football jokes to read. So there you go, that's the show. And later, an editor will add some music here Yes, a lovely bit of music that was. We all enjoyed it didid you like it, Michael? That was fantastic. Some of the best music you've ever heard. Be behind a veil,'s amazing, I love it. There you go. Now where else to begin of course than the US men'snational team two Nil Australia. a quick question. Do the US get to be the home team for every game because they are actually at home. Th think so. I don't know what happens if they play Canada or Mexico? I guess it depends which country they play in. Well, maybe yeah. Yeahah Yeah, theyve to play in one of those countries something I mean they could go for a footallf What if both of them played in a country that wasn't their home You mean if the US met Mexico in Canada. Yeah, I think all hell would break loose. I can't imagine what would happen. No. Well anyway, listen, the US men's national team won a comfortable victory over Australia, taking them to six points to top of group D and also qualifying for the knockout rounds.' very exciting for American fans. An own goal from Cameron Burges and a goal from Alex Freeman sealed the deal the U.S. I'm fair to say I' impressed n home soil So far, John I mean, I did a little bit of analysis at the beginning to get you going. I should I think you should answer this question. me. How did the game play out Well, the first half was fascinating a fascinating duel. We thought the USA would have to contend with breaking down perhaps a mid or low block from the Australians, but there was a little bit more space than maybe we expected. They scored early on from an emphatic own goal and then later from a goal that I didn't watch and then missed all of the replays of Can you have non emphatic own goals? I' going ask that what makes an own goal emphatic? Yeah. I think when it is emphatically own gold, I think that's the distinction. You can you can sort of you know or skim one in an unfortunate angle. It can bounce off your head. All sorts of things can happen. But cracked it in didn't they? He belted it in. It's so funny as well. bothoth of their games kicked off with an own goal where they put the ball into that corridor and someone just put it in Iki for. That's right. I thought you meant it was an emphatic own goal insofar as like it was earned. Right? the I don't know who I don't know who who played the pass in. Oh Balligan. Yeah, that like he's he's he's gotten to the byline and he's put the ball in an extremely dangerous Cridor of uncertainty. Yeah is the wonder of the Englishanguage, many interpretations for emphatic own goal. Well, because he didn't, it wasn't sometimes write a defender Maybe especially on a corner kick or whatever, sort of shanks clearance Yeah. and like really boots it like You know, that happened in theat in the Catar Canada again, didn't? That one was unfortunately happy though That was This was like this was like a stumbling unfortunately I have two legs and one of my feet is about to make contact with this ballarly took the next st myself likeike you say though, if you'rening if you're getting your opponent to run backwards and putting the ball across the net with with runners in behind you you've got to do you're forcing something, say maybe as well. No that's true. And then for the second part of my analysis, I think once the game was too nil, there wasn't loads left of the paper. I feelel like it reached a stage where perhaps Australia were keen to not worsen their goal difference, given that there's a feasible possibility that they could go through on on three points We don't know what will happen ahead of their meeting of Paraguay, but we spent, I would say, a good fifteen minutes talking about which stand up comedian would make her good football manager and vice versa How it anch You said because I an Australian withith a little bit of threat. Yeah. Yeah. Who else did we say? We said, Oh, Ian Hollay? Sean Dish, I think you gotghta mention. Sean Dish gotta mention. Yeah There's numerous out there I never said it'd be the worst Who would be the worst? Who's the least funny football manager He's be manic Marino. Manic Eergy. They're both performers, I think. Yeah.y Pch would be a very bad stand up comedian I think. I think that's Michael Carrick. see Michael Carrick's postmatch interviews? Yeah. I think by design not foing Lam Rzino wouldn't be great. and I think Producer Ryan mentioned Micelotet think Yeah potentially that's the right answer Yeah doesn does't he do a kind of Well, I don't m yeah No, you've lost confidence in your I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, well listen, we must press on. I mean, John, you've heard my incredible analysis of the game. What's yours Yeah, I think they you nailed it really. I think it was a case of we thought that Australia would maybe come in play a little bit less expansive football, sit in and try and hit on the brake And they and they didn't do that and were quite open and gave out the first goal. We talked a little bit in the analysis at halftime about thatal how that goal came from them actually blocking out the middle and leaving withidth open and the US finding ways of exploiting that and getting in behind and obviously playing that own goal that we talked about And it felt very much as though the US were sort of allowed to do the things that they're good at in the first half got a two goal lead and then the second half then just sort of felt a bit of a matter of course. they didn't want to overcit. Australia went for it a little bit more, but I think because the US had that two goal buffer they were quite comfortable sort of sitting in and sort of blocking them out And yeah, they they they I guess they did a good job of u sort of managing tempo at the end of games. that sort of thing is really important, I think for knockout tournaments, right? If you're in a two goal lead, you don't want to keep having to hammer away playing the sort of direct football that you've been playing in the first half. You've got to find ways of being able to prevent your opponent from having too much joy without without just sinking really deep, we talked a little bit about England doing that the in the game against Croatia where they just became a bit too compact and allowed their opponent to sort of control the game in possession. So the US did a pretty good job of of sort of playing slowing the tempo down, lots of lots of fouls, lots of sort of etcetera, all of the dark arts that you want to employ in that sort of situation. So yeah, I thought that it was a pretty good performance. I'll be happy with that. And maybe You know, the first performance was so emphatic for for the U.S. It was quite nice for them to have this maybe the second half where it wasn't quite so emphatic just to I guess manage expectations a little bit to be like, you know, this isn't just a team that's going to rip through everyone. this is a team who can compete when you have to be a bit smarter with game management and control. Yeah. Michael, I feel like The rest of the world is a bit surprised at how good the US men's national team have been. Do you feel that way also? Yeah, we never really know what we're going to get from America. We know that they have maybe an unrealistic idea I think there's anice idea that Americans not generalize, but they might have an unrealistic idea of what their team is capable of. I think as they playing a lot of worldld tournaments where they're the only one in there. So then when when there's other countries maybe they're surprised. but so far so So good. and I think Potch was a smart choice I think he really knows how to coach an attack so and I think they've showed some good capabilities. and like you said, they kind of showed a bit more gritty in the second half because it was a bit Ajib bargy at times. Yeah, I was going to say is this why you employ a South American manager for some of the dark arts that John alluded to Maybe I was going to ask you about this though. We talked to it earlier about the idea that this US international team is it has an identity, doesn't it, right? In a way that maybe like American soccer teams in the past haven't. But you're of the opinion that it's a Potatino identity as opposed to like a quote unquote American identity It seems that way to me and as someone said earlier, maybe in the live stream that maybe it was Se that Stepord Stafford Blor who was here with us earlier. whoo's on tomorrow's showow and Sunday, by the way? He was saying that, you know, if you if you If you tried to sort of generalize from national stereotypes, you might think America would be a kind of hard running, know very athletic kind of unit or whatever U, and I think I don't, I mean you said this earlier, I'm a Pachertino supporter more than an America supporter. Yeah I don't really think I never had the sense of that previous iterations of the US men's national team. had a distinct style or identity My impression from watching maybe the last World Cup, you know, was it was sort of you know, I don't know what a bit gritty kind of lower table championship style. often based around like one or two really, really excellent players. and then it's kind of hard to have like team identity you when you have one great player, right? Exactly that. Yeahah. I think this is the reason why this team is playing well is because they've got the best squad they've ever had and they've got the best coach they've ever had. And you bring those two things together and I think it raises the the level of this team quite considerably Um And I think yeah, he what you get with Poatino is a coach who actually he is playing You know, he's playing a kind of modern form of football, but he's got the players to to be able to play a bit more direct, which I think is his instinct Some of the stuff we talked about in the pre match preview was about how there's a number of different ways that this US team can play. They can play in the sort of classic positional sense of generating these tensions, pulling blocks apart, but they also have the ability to punch through blocks as well and play quite direct ball carrying m they've got they've got like a really nice athletic squad. And I think Potin is probably the perfect coach to this squad too for that reason is I think as well just watching his Chelsea. I mean his Chelsea were very criticized in the Premier League because they were because they did play like this and they were sometimes a bit susceptible to controlling games in the other direction because they would they would try and carry the ball forward quickly and you know, when you're playing in that way, it is risky because you do you do sort of invite turnovers and then if you're not nicely structured to be able to mitigate those turnovers, you can get hit in the opposite direction, which happened a few times. And then you had Moresca coming in imposing more of that positional style back ono the onto the team. and you know, the inevitable sort of rise and fall of Chelsea sort of continued where they swung one way or another. But I think with Pacatino in this kind of tournament with this kind of squad, I think it's the perfect kind of playstyle to get the most out of this squad. And we talked about it before as well. this is a potentially tricky game for the US because yeah, Australia probably you know, one of the teams that you might expect them to sit in against them, but you're not going to expect many other teams now, I don't think to sit in against them. So that we were kind of interested before the game L how they going to deal with that? But for the rest of the games, they are going to be able to play Pocatino football and there's not going to be any sort of intrinsic style problems there.'s they're going to be able to do what they want to do and as they've shown, they're pretty good at doing that. So The question is going to be like at what level does that sort of plateau out at? Well I was going go in Well I was because I was surprised in the, you know, I had watched Maybe one or two of the friendlies, and as Sb was talking about this earlier, watch the friendly against Germany Um, you know, just before I was surprised in the Paraguay match how much they had this kind of paino identity, you know, And maybe as you sort of hinting Paraguay were You know made it easy or presented the right kind of It's a relative game, right? Like you play well, the other team plays badly. like you you are you're contributing to them playing badly, right? You can I don't know. everyone of us seems to say, well, this team won so the other team were bad, right? But like those two things are always overlapping to did it did it did feel like one one of those like, you know, mid twenty ten s urers or even Southampton kind of teams. in terms of how it looked. Yeah. It felt familiar to you. Did it make you happy? Yeah, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. But in a confusing way. a kind of hello old friend way. In a confusing way, ye. It's been a while since a Poertino team has hummed,n't it? Yeah, I think that's I think that's probably right. And I am wondering actually if it's something to what's John could speak to this with more authority than I could Stop giving him authority. I know sorry that I just talk confidently. doesn't mean actually I wonder if if what has made the difference for the US. It's weird though, because Mcney and Tyl Adams were in the last World Cup squad. But that midfield three And maybe it's the combination of the midfield three with Dest and Pullisic seems to be really humming and that's the thing that gave the thing that gave me the most You know, Spurs twenty seventeen vibes was that sort of midfield and attacking kind of wide player kind of interchanges and the way they move the ball through midfield and the combinations and the rotations there Yeah, and I think part of the reason why you're getting that vibe is because teams are defending a mid bllocks, which is much more like ten years ago, right? And And you know, part the part of the reason why I think it's kind of interesting seeing Poatino now is because the tactical landscape has changed. He seem He does seem like he's behind the tie. L like as as a club manager. Potentially, Yeahah, but I also think that he's potentially coming in more relevance because the game is becoming quite direct or at least he's evolved to be able to embrace that. So is the narrative of that? Patch has got signed to prove How many just st it because you know new hir out and matching his clothes. he seems to come in with this aggression of he's got something to app prove, Is that how it feels I think he definitely does just on the basis that He he got questioned pretty hard just before the tournament because it emerged that he his his representatives had had conversations with was it Milan? Yeah. Yeah. I think there's cou a couple of clubs and his point he's always been kind of grumpy with the press anywhay. Like you all remember from seeing him in J press conferences. like his point was like, I'm out of contract at the end of the World Cup. like you know, I don't know if there's a conversation about extending him, but like it's perfectly normal to be talking to other people So I think obviously there's like it costs an awful lot of money to bring him to be the coach of the US men's national team. It involved a lot of people that weren't directly related to the game either. So there's something to prove there that he was the right person to spend all that money on. But also I think to a certain extent, I think he wants to I'm speculating, but I think he probably wants to like put a few people in their place as well and show them that even just internally that like actually know, I'm good at this, you know Yeah Beuse we were talking about it before the pod, like what would it take for to be seen as a good American tour. What would be I'll put just proved at this point N got it But what would be what do you think would make the American public happy in terms of like a finishing position? think Beating a good European team making the quarterfinals. Yeah. I think something that if they beat like a Belgium or a Netherlands Yeah, would they be like, okay And then honorably going out in the coursteres., I think that wouldll be good. And they did they lost to the Netherlands in the last tournament, didn't they? Yeah. Yeah. I think also though, like I think in terms of the hard metrics to measure, what would they be happy with quuarter fininals sounds great. Beating a European team or a big South American team, I think is really a good one. I think the other thing that They've kind of already achieved it though, right? Is it like Not smack talking them. But like before the tournament, I was sat here ready to say the US men's national team suck. you know like they could go act during the group stages, it's going to be embarrassing, you know, blah blah blah blah blah They've been one of the better teams. Yeah. don't I think it's going to be a lot harder in future years, to be quite so cavalier with making fun of Americans playing soccer. Yeah So if they've achieved anything, I think they've maybe already achieved that, although I could be getting carried away with the American World Cup, I don't know. There's an interesting question here, which is how Mexico fare Also as hosts. because traditionally, I think the sort of Mexico's kind of superpower as a national team were that they always beat the Americans right This sort of like funny kind, you know, the Mexico America relationship, you know Mexico USA relationship. Yeah, I think is a sort of fraught and complicated one U But Mexico, you know, were and I don't know what under what permutations they might meet in the tournament whether that's a posible or not. I think I think in a way that the you know, apologies to any Mexico fans listening. I think the teams Mexico obviously doing very well in the tournament so far, but I think the teams seem to be on kind of opposing trajectories The one thing they still have is that statistic that more people that live in the USA watch Liga MX than watch MLS, right? reallyally? know today that is still true. They can claim that. But I agree with you. despite the fact that, I mean, in fact, we't have loads of time to talk about it tonight, like Mexico will be in the knockout round. so we'll have more of an opportunity to talk about them In fact, all three of them All three will be qualified so far. certainly. Mexico became the first team to do so. They beat South Korea one nil.' goalkeing error in that game. It was actually like a fairly even game. But I know what you mean by that because despite the fact that they have six points, they top their group they were pretty ropey in their first game. they haven't really felt like They've got They haven't really felt as though they're having that great of a tournament so far and also they came into it with like maybe not the best team also Yeah, I think it's It is interesting that you say it feels as though the US and Mexico are on different trajectories in this storm. I think that's definitely the case Um But I think with the U with the U.S, I know you wanted to move on to the Mexico, but like the whole thing with the US is that that they theyve sort of stamped their name on the tournament and being like, we deserve to be here, right? In a way that you know, if you were cynical, you could say, well, they didn't have to qualify all of the FIFA machinations have allowed them to be here. But they' they've come into this tournament and they've hired a coach and they've, you know, you're starting to see the shoots of having more and more US players in European football, for example. and I think that that's the most important thing for the US this tournament, right? is to be like we belong in the conversation about teams that can go can go a bit deeper or can maybe start going deeper. And in that respect, doesn't it's funny obviously like how far they get will be important. But I feel as you said, they've done the hard work now, right? People are taking them seriously. I think will they willll be generating fandom in the U.S amongst a tranch of probably children who maybe wouldn't have got into it unless these results have gone their way. So ye I think all of this is like means that it's going to be a really positive a tournament for them. And you know, I guess we're going to talk about it a little bit more, but The idea of the US breaking into the footballing sphere is going to only work when the grassroots is there, right? You only become good at football when you have children wanting to play the sport from an early age and the facility is there to enable them to do that. I would encourage people to go and watch a video we published last week It's called Why Youth Soccer in America is failing. It was written by Kaya who notot here tonight, but I think the whole topic is fascinating. It's a lot related to pay to play. It's a lot related to the fact that there just there aren't that many relative to the number of people. There aren't that many, you know high high level elite you know coaches available as well. The system is really flawed and like actually prevents the country like generating better soccer players. So it's interesting that you mentioned that the team that we're watching is like full of players who've had success in Europe I think if you were able to like unlock, particularly because it relates so much to money, right? Like if you were able to unlock the talent from the working classes of America, I think in twenty years time you could have one of the best teams in the world. But they don't because they have a youth system for soccer, which you've experienced firsthand, Jonathan Shanan, which has resulted in you deciding to become a journalist.'s how bad O one of the saddest things I can imagine it is I think it's interesting because I think It has always seemed to me that whatever the real woes of the youth system Uh and obviously the pay to play stuff, I think creates a fairly obvious You know, it's intuitive to anyone who learns about this. they oh, yeah, that's not the best way to develop players. But I still think that Because they're the club game. And again, I think I get the sense even though I amm not really a U.S. soccer person that like one of the oldest the two oldest arguments in US soccer are sort of about pay to play and about promotion relegation. because the club game doesn't look like top European countries or even lesser European countries It's not so much that parents have to play. I mean, it's, you know, all American sports are like this as far as I can tell, right? You know, my nephews play baseball and they play baseball for their school or for their sort of town league But then if you're a good baseball player, you have to get onto a travel baseball team and you're paying a lot of money to be coached by the uniforms and you're going and you're playing against other elite youth teams You to drive and you have to have a car. Yeah. And this happens even though in America, there is, you know obviously a very profitable professional baseball league. in America, you go to university, people play baseball at university and that whole kind of American sports way that you get drafted into the professional leagues. So some part of me thinks that until such time as the MLS or whatever future American League looks like you know, I don't know, the err ofivisy or whatnot, you're still going to have this problem. And I wonder actually if like The scenario you might see is America looking like A South American country where the best players are sold to leagues abroad you know where you Mexico maybe is in this situation John would know better than me, kind of other places that You know, the best Argentinian players go abroad. the you know, I'm thinking of Brazil, Argentina, mayaybe there those are big sort of you know Brazil now has become that, right? many of the big Brazilian players left when they were quite young, they often stepping stone through Portugal because of the similarity. Yeah. So like could you could is does football success for America as a nation? skip though or just never get to that point where you have I think it it's there now though, right? Like the I think part of the part of the problem is that like those The critical issues are earlier in the development stage. you don't develop players that are worth selling to European clubs because we count out so many of them from a young age. Yeah. You just carve off like the bottom eighty percent of society who can't afford to do it. It is such funny thing though, because it's like I have a friend who's an American novelist who lives in Britain called Ben Markoitz, who used to play basketball was a top college basketball player I think maybe played in Germany or something and then you know, became a novelist. tall novelist a tall novelist And not everyone he plays basketball is tall tall. I think he played with like, Derkwitky in Germany. Some people that anyway. But you know I got into talking to him about this once and he was he was pitching me a piece about this idea that like The The most elaborate kind of talent locating system in in in kind of The Gobe is like learning figuring out who are the good football players. right? Like it could be that like John is like a violin genius. But like doesn't no no violin scouts are coming around be like, o, wow, if only, but if like the odds are in almost every country on earth If you have some innate talent or some physical you know, advantage or whatever. someone someone will find you. Yeah, you know. And that's, I guess what's missing from from the U.S. We haven't even talked about the competitivevellement, right, which is? We haven't even had a break yet. We have a break. This is a fascinating conversation. We will return to it. Also I'm keen We're going to try to finish by eleven PM because because what's the game? It'sland Moroc. It' Scotland Morocco. So we are currently we're tracking seventeen minutes left to do the whole rest of the show I knew I would be right. admittedly I am in charge of how long this run has right. Let's have a quick break and when we come back we'll play a Rndo Introducing the total Solutions advantage only from Comcast Business. It's the largest fastest fiber powered network for small business, gig speeds with equipment and security included and a five year price lock No one does business like comcast business Switch today? Get started for sixty dollars a month for twelve months when you add an advanced solution to a qualifying internet package. Limited time offer. restestrictions apply. new customers only. requires three hundred megab per second internet, securityedge and additionalifing service, onene year agreement, paperless billing and autoay bank account required. tax and fees extra Rally caps, lucky socks, never stepping on the foul line. Baseball is full of superstitions we hope give us an edge. 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Chasing deadlines, writing status reports, updating stakeholders. Agents handle the daily grind now. I stay in the loop only when it matters. Create your own AI agent in minutes on Monday. com. Yes, I hope you enjoyed the break that was there in the middle. Now, it was a real break for people who were listening afterwards, but the people who are joining us now didn't really experience that break. Now we're going to play a Rndo, Michael, let me explain to you what the Rndo is. Okay. I ask a question that has multiple correct answers. We go round in a circle, we give correct answers. If you give me an incorrect answer You're rejected from the Rong. Ro. If you take too long, if you der, you dilly Dallally, I will eject you from the Rndo. The final person standing is named Rondo Del Ray. Oh I want that name.. Thank you. No one's never said that before, but you want the name? Yeah I want it. Yeah. Okay, fine. Now what' we've tried to cater Rondo today to our two guests. So what we're asking for is players who were in the starting elevens for Chelsea versus Spurs On the fourteenth of august twenty twenty two, the infamous Tual andconte handandshake game. Do you remember that? Yeah afterfter the game where they were grappling with hands. So what we're looking for there's twenty two correct ar I thought you were going to say the infamous Pacertino V An Nine man Yeah. Okay. All right. I'm resettingadly Sadly not. I've tried to I've tried to go I've tried to push it towards you. you know. the last time you were on I gave you a rondo that was too difficult to compete in, I think It was that wasn't you. No, no, it was last time I was on, it was the periodic table of the elementss. And you did quite well in that one. I did okay, but've've been I've suffered a lot of shame from friends and family about my incorrect final answer, which was bronze. Let me just I just want to own that. you know It's still the only runner that John's ever won though. Yeah. I won another one. I won the US men's National. Yeahah, that was a bl It was a blowout. It was immediately one. Right anyway. Okay. Michael, I'm starting with you. So as a reminder, I just want someone from either of the Sting eleven' Chelse TaV spurs In august twenty twenty two, the infamous called conte shake.. Coola Barley. Yes, Caladoou coola Barley was that? what a pull.. Oh tell me, I don't think we're winning this one. He's going straight with coola Barley. We are not in a good place. Okay, over to you, Jonathan. I'm gonna to say Mark Cuarella. Yeah, Mark Carea you can have. I'm surprised you didn't go with a Spurs play. Well you may recall that the scandal of that game was that was Great having his hair. Of course Yeah. Also, I like the strategy of like chiseling away Oh. just. takeake his chill. Go for one of his book. Okay, John. Harry Kane. Harry Kaine Sanchez? Howarry K was that? Okay, you want Sanchez No Sanchez as far as I'm seeing, do get the benefit of the debutant's second go. Oh my go. and you don't get that I did it before. so I' get it. You have another guest now Oh bl reshames Rese James, of course you can have, yeah. It's a risky guess because of so many aailabities. Yes. I had that same thought. Yeahah. Jonathan? Christian Romero Christian Romero Yes. was He was the hair puller infamously. You thought someone else would pick up that. You're running out of events. I know I know. I don't remember the game actually, really? G with the hair puller and the hair pulley John I'll say Hyungmin son. Hygmin son you can have. Yeah, Michael back to you. Rahim Stterling. Rahim Sterling Was a starter? Well done. Okay, Jonathan Ooh, you go Laice? You go Laice Yeah Emerson Royale. Emerson Royale. Oh yeah Emerson Royaal is actually there. Yeah, well done Michael, Conneg Gallagh. Conie Gallagh Is not there Silic crystal p. You rejected. I't get wr, don'try.on't worry. I didn't even understand it to you. Jonathan, you are not the first out. Congratulations. Okay. I believe in youre here. Okay. But they've still got six sppurs players. All of them just superb Okay, That's not strictly true. We said Young Minan, we said Harry Kane We said Christian Romerao in the ball. He's dithering, isn't it? He'sing. I'm gonna say I'm gonna say Rodrigo Benter. Rodrigo Bentker is there. Congratulations. You live to fight another day. John Kulisvsky. Kulisvsky Is that? Yeah, Chisel away at the spurs. Yeah, get him. get him. He deserves it. Jonathan, back to you Oh man. For your sake, I hope your five year old is asleep now. Yes. Wouldn't want them to witness this playing in the spurs midfield other than Bentenkur Kulisvsky. You've got one possibly two Possibly three of those people that you've named. Not named but. Oh, Go Llso. No Okay, John, you have to get one correct in order to be named Rondald Dl Ray. I'm going to go H. Em Yeah well done What Congratulations. Wow. Rondo Del Ray, you've been named your competitors refusing to clap you there.orry. No, wait now we're going to do a tenense handshake Isn't that appropriate Oh man. playlayers you could have had. now there three I didn't even go into that. I didn't even get into Chelsea at all. Like didn three Ben Davies you could have had, of course. Eric Dyer Who remembers Eric D? Ryan Seignon? you could have had. I love the name Seesignon because you just throw a lot of Ceignon th the French in there. And then Chelsea players you could have had Kai Hberts. Georgenio. Mason Mount andngola Cante. Oh Mason Mount was there. Yeah. Edward Mendy E even loft his cheek. Jg Silver, you could have had. What a team? How about that was it was a? What a team that was discantled It was two two. Was it two two? Yeah. wasas that the team that won the Champions League for Chelsea? seeason after. Yeah, that was season after last How about that? C can't believe that, man Well, there you go. What a fun Rondo that was. Congratulations. That was the Rndo whoever wrote that. Competitive was producer Ryes?. there he goes. It was competitive. It was competitive. Now, another team that have made it to the knockout stagees, Canada, meanewhile, Canada secured their first ever men's World Cup win, beating nine man Katar n with a hat trick from Jonathan David. Actually he scored his first goal just after John and I we were chat, we were playing video games and chatting saying like we just just never doesn't score enough goals, you know Th he scored a hatrick in the game. That was great. The downside, I think mentioned this earlier on the live stream, the downside horrific injury to Ishmel Akone, which was a very sad that Suo player also felt Really bad for the atar player who made the challenge as well, who was obviously shocked and upset by what had happened But Karl Aaron started the game. I don't believe he started the first. Here's a quote from him after the game. We showed the world who Canada is Very impressive. A lot of players came from nowhere, basically, we show the fight we have in us and we show that we can perform on the world stage. We are just getting started. Now congratulations to Canada who have qualified for the knockout stages. Jesse Marsh though, Canada's coach, did draw some criticism for his celebrations and general antics. it was a DJ set. He did I thought it was like a kung fu kind of. I'm not sure what it was. It was an expression of energy. Yeah. at the very least. Yeah. He also stayed on the pitch for quite a long time to celebrate afterwards. I mean the He drew a lot of negative attention for this. I saw a clip doing the rounds. forgive me, I don't know the name of the person who was speaking on RTE who was speaking about this afterwards and I believe it's pronounced Orty Ori, I'm sorry. Thiss the channel of my people joob. As you know. I don't know the name of the person who was speaking, but I thought it was interesting to listen to them. Esentially sort of accusing him of like living a bit too much in the moment. So I think On the one hand, it's Canada's men's team's first World Cup win So okay, you They have qualified for the knockout stages by getting four points. Okay, it's a pretty big deal. It's at home Pretty big deal. Yeah. But on the other hand, Jesse Marsh did stay out for longer than the players. They did beat nine men catar six. I I think there's an element of like choose your moments when it comes to these sorts of celebrations. I mean what do you think, Michael managers can sometimes overdo it in these scenarios? Well, you know he's probably worked hard, you know definitely did. He just wants to enjoy the moment a bit. I would have stopped after the DJ the DJ said. I think that's why I would leave it Iven' think I've used up all my celebration sort of Energy for that. and I have to die it down for the rest. I me. So it's up to him. Fair enough. Some people don't like this about Jesse Marsushh though. he shows a lot of passion, that he's what are other terms for shows a lot of passion? know, I think it's just that he misjudges situations. I think as a leads fan. Right. There was plenty of examples of him doing the same thing with us celebrating losses, for example, in front of the fans you know, things like that which didn't go well. and he did his fair share of ridiculous celebrations as well in certain situations. I think it was the two no win against Liverpool at Anfield, which, you know, maybe that's worthy of a ridiculous celebration. I don't know. but the celebration did detract from the enjoyment of the moment for me. But I think that's what it comes down to. And I think you're right in as much as When you celebrate like that, it starts detracting away from the wider picture and focuses on an individual and I just don't think that that's helpful. And, you know, the the sort of fallout from that is that we're now talking about his celebrations rather than the game, right? That's inevitable. And that's what Eone will have done because I think it prompts that kind of response. So Yeah, I think that he's fairly unique in in that. There's not many football coaches who celebrateating the way that he does and make it about him so consistently and so regularly. so Yeah, fair enough. Do you have an opinion about this, Jonathan? Well, I was watching the match and the Tung Fu, record scratch, DJ move. I think was for two Nil. had they won penalty? Is that what it was it was they scored the penalty. But they won penalty. it was a penal was it a penalty? Was it not There was a penalty that was into ad so he wasn't celebrated. We celebrated the penalty being given. Yeah. And then it became a So maybe wasn't for touno becauseuse I maybe it was al Tuno at that point. I just I was on my couch, I was watching it. I think I had the sound off. I don't know. I was probably about to go to bed. and I saw him do this like dance move Yeah. and I had this like My like I had this like American cringe, and I was like Jessse, you'reuining it for all of us We look like we look like real clowns. And I think you know, that's maybe personal to me Uh I think that six nil like okay, there, you're still pretty excited. That's the moment when when you know that you are going to get your first ever win in the World Cup. Yeah. So okay, you you lose yourself to that moment. I thought I think to to nil when you when you Yeah, but I think to be but I think to be to be, I mean, as Johns saying, right to kind of to kind of grandstand at the end I don't know. was was Niglsman, you know, going crazy when when they beat Kurkao Cisa. Yeah C seeven to one You know I doubt it. I don't I don't think so. Yeah. I also I think it was partly like embellished by the fact that I felt quite sorry for Qatar's players because I think there's a moment where you can see on their faces The second red card happens Yeah. the play like this after the this shocking moment as well where there's been a leg break and everyone's shaken up by this. It's a traumatic thing to experience. Nobody wants that to happen And then you see them kind of realize how long left there is to play. It's sort of heartbreaking. I feel really sorry for them. likeike they're obviously hugely embarrassed that this is happening. They just want the game to finish. that's a classic like just get me out of here as soon as possible moment that even you know professional athletes are allowed to have those moments as well. So So to celebrate at the end of that, maybe to give Jesse Marsh the benefit of the doubt, maybe he didn't have the benefit of the broadcast angles of the faces of the players see to see that kind of disappointment and sad otherwise. he felt a little bit like rubbing in is what I'm saying. I think as well. part of the problem with the Jesse Marsh thing is that becom it becomes a cipher for a conversation about Americanness. And I don't think that's necessarily fair, right? Because like you say, you feel cringe because you know the people will be like, oh, that's what all Americans are like, right? It seems particularly awkward too that he's not even managing the American team. Canadians must be like, oh my God, can we not lose this Yeah. And I think, you know, in the past, he's used that as a sort of response being like people want me to fail because because they see me as being American and therefore. But again, I think that you know, there is a sense in which he is responsible for this like he has he could make the decision not to to do this. And we have a producer's note here. the question, is this a bit celebration policey? whichich I think is a very fair. I think but this is interesting. I thought about that when I was formulating my take, which is thatul criticize the the two n three no, whatever disco sccratch thing That I think is celebration pleice. sure. But I think to parade around after winning six nil I think it's like We're not talking about them celebrating, right by all means Canadians should celebrate that. It's a great result. The players should be proud of what they've achieved.antastic. It's great that they've got to this point. The entire argument for me hangs on the fact that we're talking about Jesse Marsh. Yeah, not that not the Canadian performance, not the Canadian celebrations at the end. It has become narrowed down to that that narrow Most I would call it like celebration community support offfficers mean that the British Transport police not quite you know, autor of police. just kind of monitoring the situation. Yeah We're not gonna to do anything. No. We don't have the power to arrest anybody. Yeah yeah yeah. But you know, maybe one day. Yeah we can make citizens arrest. that O that RTE clip, which which I sent you. Yeah onene of the two guys who's talking, the one who's not really giving it to Jesse Marsge P plays a kind of devil's advocate and says, look, isn't trying to Canadians into this Y World Cup, get them excited. They don't really care about football necessarily. It's not a big thing I do think that's an interesting Dynamic here and it goes to maybe what Michael was saying about Pacciertino. doeses he have something to prove? I feel like what Pacatina maybe has to prove, maybe Jesse Marshis has a similar kind of thing going on is like Pacatino, I think, must feel that he's taken a big chance here. This is like a big project Right? L it's not the done thing as a top manager who wants to like go back to PSG or whatever Barcelona, Re Madrid. go manage the US of all places. Yeah. And and so he must feel that He has to have a transformative tournament bothoth in terms of the success of the team but also in terms of sort of changing the culture you know, I mean, whether you could do that in one tournament or one manager or whatever, I don't know.. But my guess would be that that is what is on his mind Um But you know, he's not celebrating like Jesse Marsh. No. And also you know, to a certain extent, I think if you are an elite athlete or you're the manager of elite athletes or you're in, you know this window in any way like, Do whatever you want, you know, don't have to listen to us. It's absolutely fine. Like you want to celebrate on the pitch at the end of that result, do it. you know, he's do. If you've beat someone six nill, though, you're sort of like you know, don't want to do like a knee slide in front of the No that's you know the other team that before. like you know, John and I play roocket League, a video game Rocket League a lot, which is car football, right And I have a very different attitude towards the game than John does. If I'm playing against an easy team, if I'm playing against nine men atar I want to score as many goals as possible. I want to make it so that Katar never want to come back and play me again. Whereas John would get to ahead and then be like, oh,' just you know, fuck around have a good time. But I don't know. So I feel like I share the elite sportsmanship mentality. That's what I'm saying there. And now I've decided that my opinion is completely one hundred eighty It's absolutely fine Aast line on the pitch afterwards make them wish that they weren't there, you know? How about that? Anyway, Scotland Moroccoos kicked off. We were supposed to be finished, but we're not. So instead we'll take a quick break and then we'll come back. If you want to watch that game though, do go and watch it. I don't want to see any comments saying that you missed a goal because you didn't leave a live stream. It's all your responsibility take control of your li When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. 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This summer get one thousand bonus points and a chance to win two hundred fifty thousand bonus points. So wherever you're headed and make a count with this limited time offer a tri Make the most of it at bestwestern. com. No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, T's and C's and sweeps rules for details, and visit bestestwestern. com for complete terms and conditions Okay, we're back from the break. We just got about a little ten minutes left. No one mind's missing the first ten minutes of the next game. where we're all locked in,n? we are going to watch it, Yeahah. I'm going to watch it. You welcome to stick around. weelcome to stick around. Now What I wanted to do was have a very quick review of the sort of first round of the games, all the first everyone's played one game now So I don't know how many that is. How many games is that twentyenty four That's easy to work out, isn't it? Just half the number of teams. Look at me go. So at least twenty four games have happened I wanted to go round and ask people's favorite moments, Michael, I'll start with you. Do you have a favourite game from the first group that happened Um I lik France. Yeah. wasas it Senegal? France Senegal? That was one of the best ones. I enjoyed that. Yeah That was very good, very good goals in that one Mama some good Jackson misses I like watching him do that. So yeah, enjoyed that one. favourite moment so far. Um, have to come back to me on that one. Yeah. What about favorite? C you have a favorite goal Oh, my favorite goal was probably the Trevella. Yeah. I like that Jna T travella, like a Trevella. Beautiful. Yeah ye for me. Yeah. How about you Jonathan? Favorite game England, Croatia. Yeah, most exciting. I really want to know like for total neutrals what that experience was like JJ tried to claim that he was one I think it was I think it had a it had a combination of Um A lot of scoring, but also quite competitive, right? It was you, there were six goals, but it wasn't like six to nill. players from the Champions League. Yeah. I think I think that was pretty exciting. I thought I thought u Spain, Caaperude was Qite exciting. Ptty fun without any go. Yeah yeah. But also just, I mean, I think John was talking about this earlier or maybe it was Sab sorry justust kind of like unthinkable Yeah like, you know, the whole second half a bit like How is this still happening It wasn't me Germany also because it's because you're sitting in the chair where That' right. It's not because you look like also yeah. do look a little of No, no, no. It was nice to see Third and fourth Mitchell brothers. Germany getting off to a good start as wellll be against Churis. Now John, any favorite game for you? I enjoyed the US. Yeah Paraguay game mainly because I'd made a video that said that it might be a good game and you' proud of yourself. I'd just like to get no I'd just like to get America and And me as well as America. I cheered. I was there on the pitch afterwards. I was doing this when they scored. Some people say John always makes it about himself. Yeah. But you know how when people like bet on football and then they're like super into the game When John makes a tactics video about football, he likes so he's so into anythingything to get the people off my back, you know, that's all it is for me. As long as I know that I can sleep safe that night I'm good And you name any of the people who are on your back? Is anyone who's in this room? There's too many of you too many the usernames are too long, aren't they Joh? That's the thing. And I think my favorite moment was the referee going down with crramp. That was That good. That a very rare instance of a That's embarrassing So if you're the referee in a worldld Cup game and you go down with cramp, it's not embarrassing that happens. It's embarrassing for you because you know that no one is disincententivized from making fun of you anywhere in the world, right The main target for fun mate. So one of the players stretches out his hamstring.. And Adam Hurries just shared the clip. You know the BBC have their three D experience. Yes. He went on there and you can you can select the point of view for that player and then the referees just lying on the floor with his leg up. So I recommend you go and find Adam Hurries. I'd like to propose a controversial worst moment. Yes, please do. N the Hurricane penalty retake You didn't like it? I liked it. Yeah the result. Yeah, but I was I felt like it's lame, it's lame. Yeah. It's rubbish. Yeah. I also thought, I mean, to be fair, this is really pushing it. I thought it was a soft penalty of a kind. I mean, he kicked him really hard, but you know, he's not going anywhere with that. I suppose bias coming Yeah, I know what you mean. because it was Madueke. No no it was mod. Yeah it Madaueke, it was Madake. Yeah exactly The Tader Maduke. But you'll remember that next time you're doing a Rndo. you'll think, Well, Maduke and moderate. youll get at youll get at least two nails on of them. I think Harry Kay should have two opportunities for every penalty going forward on that? Absolutely. They might have won the World Cup last time aroundound if he had two Yeah There we go. Now one more thing before we we f it actually, do you know what? We've been talking forever Let's Can it. We we were going to talk about how this World Cup is going for the USA as a country. Oh, I can I can I know. You you know what? If you want to talk about it for two minutes, let me ask you one question, which is you were in the US very recently. I was. I was there very briefly You' American. I am American. Yeah I'm contractually obliged to say here that I was in the US to launch the first issue of my magazine, Euator. There it is. I knew there was a reason that we were talking about this. I'm just kidding. Now. were what's the vibe like? people A people excited? That Yes, people are excited. I was in New York likes to see itself as not like the rest of the U S. is in some ways the most American place in America. I arrived on Sunday when people were still like blerry eyed from having celebrated the Ks World Championship the night before. Yeah, the vibes are good, but I mean, I think it's going well so far for the U.S as a project. Like if we were to look at it in the same way that we looked at Russia and Qatar, do you think it's going well? Be there's been quite a lot of Like with Russia and Qatar, I felt like the bad news story sort of stopped when the football started, but with the stakes hasn't really happened. I think it's complicated. I think this is the first what's significant to me about this World Cup is that this is the first time that I think America sees itself on the world stage as like as like a bad guy Right? Like the reputation of America in the world at large is not very good at the moment for various reasons, right? When you say America sees itself that way, do you mean that Americans recognize that? I think they recognize that other people see them that way. Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't think every American recognizes that. Sure, maybe those of us who don't live there anymore have a certain investment in this in this reputation. I'm surprised think I think the football has kind of outpaced the bad vibes. There a lot of bad news before the tournament Yeah. and in the early days of the tournament Um You know, I think I heard you say on an earlier podcast or someone else that, you know Qatar and Russia were heavily concerned to really put their best face forward and to make sure that nothing would go wrong. and that at least in the run up to the tournament certainly the vibe from like the Trump administration or the American government or whatever was like, well, we don't care, we don't need to impress you.. I would say The excitement of the game right like, you know, the Iranian team seems to still be suffering some travel ban going back to Mexico kind of madness. Yeah. There were a few examples. I mean, the Somalian referee Omar Artan wasn't allowed in, of course, and Iraqi team photographer wasn't allowed in. The Iraq st I mean Husin was questioned for hours on I don't know if this stuff if less of it is happening now kind of one week in, but it seems from my ambent perception that it is It is occupying less of the discursive space than it was in the run up to the first two or three games. I also think one of the things seemed to me an interesting element of this was the kind of diminish role of Mexico and Canada. Yes. You know, I think it's one hundred four games Mexico and Canada have thirteen each. And so the U.S has seventy eight. We published a fineiece in Equuator by a Mexican novelist who owns one of the seats in the Aztecca, which his grandmother bought in nineteen sixty six. W. And the Aztecca seat holders had to sue to retain the rights to sit in their seats anyway. It's a great piece. You can read it on the Equuator website. Thatounds. But no, he was like, you know, it's shameful that Mexico accepted, you know, we put on some of the greatest World Cups in history nineteen seventy, nineteen eighty six How is it that we're the sort of feeble younger brother to America But it really does feel like it's I know it's I know it's a Canada and Mexico involved but like it's the US. as well. Well, I think the fact that Canada and Mexico are on the pitch doing quite well has sort of smooth the edge off that. That's my impression. I mean, I'm not taking public opinion surveys in Mexico or Canada. No. So can I say allegedly? Allegedly.actsly what's happening. For the live stream earlier, we learned that that word has no legal bearing whatsoever, by the way, in case people are using it at home. Yeah. I don't know, John, do you have a perspective on this? I know you've been in the tactics cupboard, you've been very focused on the football itself but ' a it's big deal that I'm sort of reticent to like I want to let it pass. I want to watch the football and kind of ignore all of the more complicated. what I'm reoned to. We can hold a contradictory position in many respects in lots of areas of life, right? where we can accept that that football is always going to be layered over the top of like a political reality. and you're never going to be able to heretically seal one thing off from from the other. Football is undeniably political and always will be the case Um But at the same time, like I also feel asough when it comes to the World Cup,s there's a sense in which the football sort of does transcend that as well, right? The football is good an end in itself. We don't need and I think that's the contradictory position you have to hold. You have to realize on the one hand that what this tournament is is a sports washing event for a political entity. But the football itself, I still think has an intrinsic value outside of that context because football is a game that is played between between two teams and that is good. it' you know, it should be a celebration of you know the achievements of these countries to get to this competition achieve of these countries to develop a football culture which has enabled them to develop the players that they have, etcetera. And so yeah, I think it's a contradictory. And I think what we should do is we should hold those two things in tension. We should say the football is good. The sports washing is bad and not have to try and smooth over smo that over, just let it sit there and sort of fester away while we're watching. This is spoken like a true Hegealian. Yeah. Well, there you go Would you like an incredibly hard left turn? Oh yeah, sure. Let's tell some excellent football jokes day this day is the perfect timing. Fantastic. Now. weelcome to the section. This is if anyone needs needs to be told very inspired by the late great Norm MacDonald. Here we are, we've got some excellent football jokes and Michael Ouwa, wouldould you like to read one? I'd love to see. There you go. There's one In fact, I'm going to give you a couple But we'll do this one first and see as we go on You get one, too, Jonathan,on't, Thank you. Spain needn't worry about scoring goals at this World Cup., why is that If it's still Nil Nil, I have it on good authority that Mark Kuckareo will pop up at the hour markark. A the hour Mark. Mark Kucku Rea. Yes, of course.