Vision for the Labour leadership

This is the Guardian Today The Mancunian candidate. Andy Burnham There's been weeks of talk about Andy Bernham being the hottest thing in British politics. After months or let's face it, a whole career Building up to this moment, The Mayor of Breater Manester is fighting to win. I'm in the campaign. I'm fighting to win it with your support and with the support of the great people of this constituency Fast in the Makerfield Bialection. and then Well to become the next Labour Prime Minister. A vote for me in this by election campaign is a vote to change Labour. Beramania is a real thing He consistently polls higher than any other labour politician He seems likekable You can talk to people He's got great eyelashes. Behind the height is one small question What does Andy Burnham actually believe in In October Berham said Britain shouldn't be in hctab bond markets when deciding how to spend money Well recently He's been walking that back. I have never said You can just ignore the bond markets I said that politicians have placed Britain in Hok He once said that he wanted the UK back in the EU I'm going to be honest, I'm going to say it I hope in my lifetime, I see this country rejoin And now as Makerfield looms into view, It's not so much his thing the last thing we should do right now is rerun those arguments And if you thought Andy Berham would be Labour's liberal voice on immigration and asylum. We've always played a part in terms of welcoming people in the past. We stand ready to do so going forward. It turns out he now backs the homeome Secretary's tough crackdown too. I've said you know Therust of what she's doing is right So come on then Who is the real Andy Burnham And how did he get here From the Guardian I'm Noshi Nk Bal Today in focus Third times a Chm. My Andy Burnham is tipped to be the future of the Labour Party Johalladay, welcome back to Dane Focus. Thank you. You're the Guardiananss North of England editor and you've met Andy Burnham spent quite a bit of time with him during his moranity of Manchester What's your impression of him Andy Burnham is quite unusual for a top politician that he actually you responds to your texts. he picks up the phone, he calls you mate when you answer it's very sort of chummy. But I think you know that is very much seen as quite an affable politician You know, someone who could walk down the street have conversations with ordinary people, which not that many politicians in this era can You know, he's not a suit and tie sort of politician I've seen fashion articles about him, which is odd for a mayor because they're very unsexy roles. He's kind of built his own brand, I suppose in the last ten years as mayor of Greater Manchester You mentioned fashion, of course, there was I think there was this piece in Vogue which asked, why do we all fancy Andy Burnham? So it kind of gives us a sense of this fever almost around him, you know, it's kind of gripping politics right now Josh, why is he suddenly being touted as the saaviour of the Labour Party I think he's This persona and He's very deliberately done this over the course of his time in Greater Manchester, but particularly during COVID as speaking for the world outside Westminster And that's led to some calling him the King of the North. Some wrongly say self styled King of the North. He's never styled. he's never styled himself as King of the North. That'd be qu shameless, wouldn't it? But I think he likes the title He's expressed multiple times that, you know, politics doesn't work for most of the country. You know, we live far too in far too much of a London centric over centralized political system. Over the last few weeks, Burnham has been telling people that he's the only person who can save this country from reform UK, which sounds like a big claim to make in a time when reform so far are headading the polls and Labour, you know looks you doomed to be honest in the next general election. But you know what he believes and his allies believe is that he can speak to the people who are turning into reform. You know, the largely white working classes, former labour voters, you know left labour rapidly over the last ten years, but feel betrayed by labour feel they're working harder, they're taking home less. The political system just doesn't work for them. This is what Burnhams about's what he's been all about for the last nine years as Greater Manchester Mayor. So that's why he believes his time has come. It is a vote to give the people here in these communities who supported us throughrough the years It's a vote to give them the party back that they used to know. That is what this is a vote for A party party that is solidly. Solidly on the side of working class people and working class. communities Another thing that he does which hasn't had much of a show in politics in recent times and it's not yet come up in this by election, but I think it probably will do is that He is quite unusual for a person on the left of politics because he can articulate a progressive form of patriotism I love this country Our country I feel proud to be British I don't subscribe to the current fashion of putting more narrow loyalties first. I am British before I am English. It kindind of does that really convincingly. You can articulate this sense of you know being a nation of inclusion. I love what Britain has always stood for as a country the underdog against the bully. Not shying away from you know the flag, which has become a divisive topic in politics, Reclaiming St. George's flag as a kind of know symbol of pride rather than division. He can do it in a way that doesn't feel kind of stilted and awkward. You know when you get cabinet ministers saying, I have Stt George's flags in my home And you just don't believe them. You just cringe as, very. Yeah. I mean, well he he he's a politician that, you know does go to the football, does enjoy a pint, you know, he he seems normal. He seems normal And, that is Andy Burnham now, but can you tell me how he got here? You know what was his early life like? How did he get into politics? Andy Burnham had quite an ordinary upbringing. He was born in Liverpool. and they moved at quite a young age to Cultouth, which is in between Manchester and Liverpool. He's an Everton fan, Everyone knows that, Everyone's seen him jogging in his retro football shirt. Very short shorts horrific shots. I'm getting plenty of advice about what I should do. The main piece being God's sake, get some new running shots I don't think he would ever claim to to be poor growing up. you know, but he had quite a working class background, working class sensibilities, a labour supporting families, dad worked for the post office He tells this story of you, sort of being radicalized by the minor strikes in the eighties when he was a young boy The school that he went to was near one of the picket lines You know, he's he's written about banging on the school bus window you know, on the way into school to show support for the striking miners and people bring in tins of food for other children at school whose parents on the picket line. And I think that sort of helps set al light his sort of interest in politics from that early age. He joined labour at the age of fourteen or fifteen And three years later he was at Cambridge University and read English. He felt like an imposter. There wasn't many young people from his part of the world ended up at Cambridge University As he said, you know, he felt like an imposter in Cambridge. He also said later that he found the culture in Westminster stifling, but he did rise quite rapidly through the labour ranks quite quickly, How would you characterize his early years joined Westminster, if you like in the mid nineties when he was in his mid twenties first as a The researcher for Tessa Joel before the ninety seven general election seemed to get a tist for you know politics. And you know, very quickly wanted to become an MP. So that was set quite early on. That was set quite early on. Yeahes, he's described it as a know kind of guilty secret that he wanted to be MP and he was a special advisor for Chris Smith, the culture seecretary. And then he got the seat in Lee near Wiggan, where he was elected in two thousand one And then he had various government posts under both Tony Blair and Gordon Brown you know rising to. some of the top posts in government. He was health Secretary for a time. said that the Conservatives left the NHS in intensive care in nineteen ninety seven. We have nursed the National Health Service back to H M to Culture seecretary. the right honourable Andy Burnham, the Secretary of State for Culture, media and Sort Josh in two thousand nine, he went to Liverpool's Anfield Stadium for the twentieth anniversary of the Hillsboridge disaster Remembering any loss of life on this scale is painful. It is even harder when a tragedy was no natural disaster, but entirely man madeade, when it involves so many young people, and when those who lost most have suffered so many more dark days ever since often pointed to this as something of a turning point in his career. Can you tell us What happened and why it was so significant for him? Yeah. well, Andy Burnham has said previously that all roads lead to and from Hillsborough for him day of the semifinal itself, he had friends who were there at Hillsborough. you know, describes sort of frantic waiting for news, desperation spoken about how this sense of a police cover up and the government being against the people, a city that felt, you know terrible injustice for decades. So it's personal for him. It's really personal, yeah. So when he spoke at Anfield on the twentieth anniversary He was there as the representative for the UK Government. So it's an incredibly tricky position for him to be in personally because of the deep hurt that manyany in Liverpool felt towards the government still at that time I felt they hadn't seen justice for the victims, right? That's right. Today as the Prime Minister has asked me to convey, it is a very striking moment when he starts to talk ninety six fellow football supporters who died will never be forgotten And he asked us to think at this time The Cowd starts chanting over the top of him Jice for the ninety six and he stops and steps back and sort of lets that moment unfold And I think in those kind of Seconds was kind of a pivotal moment in his political career because he was hearing people He was there facing up to it as a member of the goovernment of the day The following day he spoke to cabinet in government and basically kick startarted the process for excavating Police records. exposing the injustice and the cover up. These papers are stronger than I thought they would be. What we see is what we've always suspected that immediate attempts were made blame the ninety six, their friends, families, fellow supporters and take the blame off the police And that's why I say Hillsborough is one of the biggest injustices of theentiet century. It's not just So it was a really seminoal moment really in his sort of political journey Just just a year after that, he then ran for the first time to be leader of the Labour Party and he ended up coming forth just above Dian Abbot. Are you disappointed you haven't done better that hen that your name isn't out there with people who might win. No, No, I came into this campaign to say what I needed to say. D didnn't stop him from trying again, which he did in twenty fifteen running against Jeremy Corbyn that he's espousing. I mean, it does seem that this contest is Jeremy Corbyn versus the other three and that socialism is something of a dirty word within the Labour Party these days I don't think that's right at all. I mean, I agree with him on some things such as more public control and public ownership of the railways, but I disagree with him How did he pitch himself in those two contests and why did it not land either time? Well, there were quite different contests in twenty ten and twenty fifteen and you saw quite different versions of Andy Burnham. The mood also in the country at the time was different just in of five years Corbyn Mania twenty fifteen. unstoppable wave of support for Jeremy Cobbyn And he came nowhere near winning that really. You know, many people would have given up. after two times and then this sort of humiliating fashion as well. Both of his campaigns were quite odd in a way. They were they never really got off the ground with any coherent policies or messaging People didn't know what Andy Burnham stood for. It is not unreasonable to ask you Are you closer to Kendall or Corbyn or somewhere in arly somewherearlyarly somewhere in the middle the in between, aren't? I'm not denying the question, but I know you in the media like to put labels on people. like tooin?, One of his criticisms of his time as a government minister, that people say is that he just seemed to rise without trace and no one can really say who he is or what he stands for I mean, it reminds me of that sort old political joke about him isn't there where it? Blair I a brown night and a corber night walk into a bar and the barman says Hello Andy Burnham. It's a classic. He you know, the jellyfish is what some people called him, I think as well. spineless Th two years later he was out of Westminster But he still hadn't sort of given up on his ambitions to one day lead the Labour Party. So here he is, you know Eleven years down the line. Josh, as you say, he was obviously always Very ambitious. So why did he decide to leave Westminster and become mayor of Greater Manchester? I think hed just got completely fed up of Westminster A fifteen or sixteen years there holding various ministerial posts being frustrated in his efforts to to get things done. Hes spoken about not liking, you know the way Government operates in terms the whip system. you have to vote the way the government votes, not you know what you believe in your conscience. You know, you can't vote with your conscience, youve gott ve with the party. I don't think he likes the Westminster bubble culture. but I think, you know his real departure for him was the Brexit campaign and you know what he felt was, you know it was completely lackluster rememain campaign didn't speak to majority of people in the country. So there's a particular moment in the Brexit campaign in twenty sixteen where he was an ardent remainer and he wanted to make a speech about the emotional pull of Rain and why we should stay within the EU. And as he tells it, He was basically given no support for making this statement at all by the official Rain campaign. They wanted to keep it strictly on economics.. Don't strain to like the emotional reasons for staying within the EU I mean, what Andy Burnham says is that no one was making this kind of emotional case, combating this nationalism you know, large swathes of the North of England which ended up voting for Brexit Patriotism is to love who we are and what we have been Be positive about it Nationalism is to think we are better and look down on everyone else And in the end, that is what I think the Lave C campaign is about. far from. And he kind of felt really worried about where the country was going and he sort of lost faith in the ability of the Labour Party particularly to speak to ordinary working class people As in twenty seventeen He returns to his roots, he becomes mayor of Manchester, and I remember he was voted in on the prromise to end Street homelessness Rising homelessness is the issue that has defined this campaign What were his first steps in that role promise to end homelessness was a big part of his initial campaign You know, it got off to what seemed to be a decent start. There was a campaign called a bed everyvery night, particularly when, you know, when temperatures dropped below freezing, every person who was homeless would be guaranteed a bed for the night. That later evolved And it was going well and then COVID sort of seemed to blow everything out of the water We had other big pledges as well, onene of which is called the B Network, which is Manchester's bright shiny new yellow buses, electrified buses, which now buzz around the city around the region actually, onene goes past the end of my street. know one of those very tangible things that you can point to and say, wow, you know Youredad he's actually done something. Yeah pololitics has achieved something. Today it was announced that the local authority would take back control of the bus network, setting fares and routes. It will be the first place outside of London to have a regulated system since the nineteen eighties Capping bus fares at two pounds whereas previously you paid more than forquward for you know single journey just shocking free bus passes for sixteen to eighteen year olds. lots of you know, lots of good things to help people with the cost of living. Most of Greater Manchester, he's a very popular mayor, you know, he' There were some stats out about the Manchester seeing the biggest fall in inner city deprivation that anywhere else in the country You know they can point to the rapid rise of buildings across Greater Manchester, particularly central Manchester, office blocks, new residential apartments You know, it's been the fastest growing city economy, I think of anywhere in the UK over the past past decade And people do attribute that to him. Well, this is this is the thing, right? because lots of the success of Manchester was set and trained two decades before he became mayor of Greater Manchester. That has just accelerated under his leadership. wh whether he can take all the credit for that. I think you know he can't. But that said he does, you know, there is a lot that he can to and be proud of, I think, as his record as mayor. But really, it was during COVID that he was first referred to as the King of the North, which is a title that is inescapable every time his name is now mentioned What was it about his handing of that crisis which then made him so popular? During COVID, I think I was probably in a press conference or on the phone with Andy Berham either every day or every week. COVID for Andy Berham was, you know this Epitome of an over centralized government in that the government were deciding policy on the basis of a small room rather than listening to the needs of the rest of the country and what was actually happening in the rest of the country. And he wasn't this kind of Lisis fair, let's all go out politician. He was quite serious. He was listening to What experts were saying what was actually happening in the rest of the country? Sorry to interrupt you, but we are going to hear from Andy Burnham. I'm sure you'll want to hear this too He wasn't invited to the Cobra meetings in London, and so he used the media basically to get his message across to national government Thank you everybody. Thanks for coming And I think people saw him as that voice for the North. To accept any further restrictions in these circumstances would be certain to increase levels of poverty Hlessness and hardship within our city region There's that particular moment where he stood outside Bridgewater Hall in the center of Manchester in this jacket and you know Really you know, was incredibly righteous fury directed down the camera lenses towards Boris Johnson. How can we carry the public with us through this pandemic If we are Forcing them So Lose. their income saying, you know Great Manchester would not accept any more restrictions without consultation. You know, that was kind of the making of him you know, in a public sense. You know, people really became aware of who he was outside of Greater Manchester at that point. I think, you know there were beers named after him, King of the North IPA. The jacket that he wore was hung in in a museum. G out. It was. I don't know if it's still there. They didn't clean it before they put it up for display because they wanted to keep They call it evidential soiling I mean, it seems like it's kind of also the moment where he woke up to himself, right? I mean, it wasn't just what he said, there was this feeling that you know, Andy Burnham, the political chameleon, was finally comfortable in his own skin. You know, he was dressing differently. He seemed more authentically passionate about what he was doing How do you think that people in Manchester felt, Josh? and how successful do people genally think he's been My sense is that people are quite proud to have Andy Burnham as the mayor. you know part of the role is that you don't have every single power or you know, unlimited money at your disposal. but what you do, what you are is a figurehead. you know And I think he's done that part of the job very well And is he doing the work of politics any differently. One of the big things of his term as Greater Manchester Mayor has been bringing different political parties together to get things done. The biggest example of this is working with the conservative government in order to you know bring more devolved powers for the regions he's spoken about, you know, this pololitical pragmatism, politics, it's about place rather than you know point scoring. I think he learned quite a lot from Michael Bloomberg, who was one of the you know former mayor of New York. Right working with different political parties to get things done and Andy Burnham, I think has tried to put aside these political differences to deliver benefits for his area So he's managed to build bridges, but I imagine not everyone is that enamoud of him. I mean, Josh, what would his critics say about him? big criticism, I have to say of his time as Mor is the introduction of the clean air zone which is where high polluting cars would be charged up to sixty quids a day, the owners of them. which was, you know a huge scheme. There were hundreds of signs and cameras went up across Greater Manchester, you know sort of ten years or so ago and you know there was a massive public backlash and he sort of bottled it and didn't follow through completely scrapped the scheme And you know, apparently it cost about one hundred million pounds in order to set this thing up. I mean, he says that that money wasn't wasted because it went into the electrification of buses, you know, the rollout of the B network. You know, the signs, clean air zone signs that went up across Greater Manchester were only taken down last year. and they became kind of totemic of this big failure Right politics. and it sort of speaks to that thing that people say about him is that you know, he really wants to be liked. He doesn't like being disliked. Coming up What is Burnham's pitch to make afield and to the rest of the country Makerfield no doubt is going to be judged as a dress rehearsal in any case of his potential leadership race against Gestama.h What is Burnham's vision that he's offering to this constituency and to the Labour Party. You know It's about devolving more powers to regions across the UK. It's about making life more affordable for people. He's spoken about taking public control of essential assets like water, energy. He thinks the privatization of the bus network is one of the biggest flaws of the past two, three decades And I think much more focus on these post industrial areas across the Midlands, North and Wales, which haven't seen proper investment for a long time. And you know where there is huge opportunity to build like you know the industries of the future, clean energy is something that he's really keen on That's his message, essentially. He wants to get rid of this kind of myopic government that lives by the hour, that doesn't think about, you know, long term investment in particular areas and seems out of tune with, you know, the cost of, you know, everyday items and people's lives And how is he seen in terms of his grasp of economics? Because there's a lot of chat made about, you know that famous quote where he said, you know, government should shouldn't be in hocked to the bond markets, which a lot of people may agree with, but it's got him a lot of flack Yeah, I mean, it's kind of hung in the background of his leadership ambitions really before this campaign even kicked off. I mean people don't really believe that he set out a proper agenda yet on how he would deliver all this kind of long term investment, this radical change in society without increasing borrowing or taxes Now those are the two options You know, there there are veryer smart people who said that you know there'll be ways that he could do it. And Andy is a bold person and I think the people that are supporting him should encourage him to be bolder because the country needs it Jim O'Neill, the former Goldman Sachs banker who's know one of the countries most respected economists were supportive of Andy Burnham's ambitions for long term borrowing to increase investment because you know that's kind of the only way that you can make these radical changes unless you're drastically raising taxes, which Pete is not just not going to wash at the minute. You know is a very jittery bond market. There's a lot going on in the world to be kind of nervous about and the idea of some kind of radical Fire brand coming into number ten is going to put some people on edge Josh, obviously if you're mayor of Manester, you have no control over one of biggest political questions of the day, namely immigration and asylum Last week we reported the fact that his allies say that Bernam was backing the homeome Secretary Shabana Mahammoud's very controversial changes to the immigration asylum system Is this a surprising turn for him? It surprised me, but then again, that might be because, you know, Andy Berham has not had to articulate his views on these, you know, big you know, national issues like immigration, you know, for a long time. But then again, you know, he's spoken about having to fighting the election that you're in and, you know if he's tough on immigration, that will probably play well to a lot of people in make field Josh looking at Burnham's journey, Everything you've discussed. what do you think are the chances that you know all of this could take him finally to the top job I think it's looking quite likely. it will end up in number ten. think If he wins the Make or field by election, it's still an if. He's probably the favorite but only just And I think the Labour Party will see him as, you know the person who can win possibly the next general election. You know, the other contenders Would they get past the labour members Andy Burnham constantly tops the polls as the most popular politician actually, you know, among Labour members and among the general public. If Kirstma decides to set out an orderly transition then I think we could be on for an Andy Berham Prime Ministerhip by the end of this year In the meantime, quite a spicy by election to look forward to which I'm sure we're going to be checking back in with you on Josh, Thankk you so much for your time. Thank you very much That was North of England editor, Josh Halladay Do follow his reporting of the story and more from our politics team or at theguardian. com And that is it for today This episode was presented by me, Noshi Nkbal. It was produced by Iva Manley, Ned Caramiles, and Tom Glasser Sound design is by Rudy Zadlo the executive producers were Sammy Kent and Elizabeth Cassen We'll be back this afternoon with the latest This is the Guardian