The Future of International Law

This is the Guardian today cost of speaking out The human rights lawyer sanctioned by the US My life was I wouldn't say ordinary because I don't know what ordinary is, but it was I mean, I was with my family. I had started lecturing in. This is Francesca Albenesei You might have heard of her. You've probably seen her She's the Italian lawyer who in may twenty twenty two became UN's spepecial rapporteur for the occupied Palestinian territories When I started this position, I was full of good intentions, which I still have But I was so naive. I really thought that member states didn't know enough or didn't understand enough, or were animated by Good intentions It is an unpaid job and it hass never been an easy one Eighteen months into the role came october the seventh. and Israel's war on Gaza And then my life has been completely turned upside down ever since Francesca's work is to monitor and compile evidence on human rights abuses She is called to be an independent expert to the United Nations and writes exhaustive reports using international law to assess what's happening in occupied Palestine It's not work you expect would make a go viral on social media or to see it become sanctioned by the Trump administration. The U. S. Secretary of State Markca Rubio posted on acts saying I am imposing sanctions on UN Human Rights Council spepecial Rppeur Francesca Albanzi for her illegitimate and shameful efforts to prompt international criminal court action against U. S and Israeli officials, companies and executives For many, Alban Az is a hero for calling out a genocide in Gaza But she's divisive. She's been accused of antiemitism. And she's had all sorts of abuse thrown at her even at the United Nations itself Misbanese you are a rich And this report is another page in your spellbook You have tried to conceal withith lie and hatred But your poison has failed. be vilified, mistreated for standing side by side with Those who are invisilized and silenced, it's awful I have no one. I'm just the Lagan expert who was studied and lived in Palestine and has written boring academic research about Palestinian force displacement. And then during my mandate Aome Crimes start to happen. What shall I do? I just tell what I see, the way I see it From the Guardian I'm Nosi Nic Bal Today in focus. Francesca Albanesei, in her own words Anrancca Albanzi, welcome to todayoday in Focus Now, you are an international lawyer specializing in human rights in the Middle East. And since twenty twenty two, you've been the UN's special rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territories Last July, in an extraordinary move, the U.S. government sanctioned you It's a fate that you shared with Vladimir Putin, Bashar al Assad and the Le Ayatollah Hamine that have on your life Yeah, the impact is severe The impact is severe It equates to a civil death. I cannot perform transactions. I cannot make payments. I cannot receive payments through financial transactions. So I cannot have a bank account. But this is not just in the US This is everywhere because the banking system of the US reaches everywhere, including in the part of the world I come from. I've not been able to open a bank account in Italy or in any other European countries where I've tried. So you can't use a credit card or a debit card? No No, but all the more. I mean, I've not been able to benefit from my health insurance because I'm sanctioned or You know, IF property in the US has been frozen because we used to live there. So we decided eventually after so many years of work to purchase the apartment. It's a small apartment, but this is the place where I gave birth to my first child. and she's American educatated, she's thirteen and she's been going to throughout the U.S education system. and I weve she's always said that she wants to go to study in the U. S So this has not impacted me only. It has impacted my family and not just because of the freezing of my assets and because I'm no longer Economically independent. I have the same degree of independence that I had when I was a young child Someone needs to take care of me, which is absolutely embarrassing and humiliating. So even going to the supermarket, something as trivial as that. you're always having to carry cash. No, need I need to borrow money I need to borrow money. cannot access eararnings, they're blocked in so many places The U. S. sanctions operate in this way. Their aim is to create a chilling effect around a sanctioned person that you understands it makes total sense if the person is a narco traffickant or a threat to the U.S. And so you say, okay, I need to protect my citizens from someone who really represents evil to my people So all those who support or have relations with a sanctioned person transferring goods or services They can be punished up to twenty years in jail or one million dollars fine And so this includes your own employment as a professor as well, right? So this includes you teaching in the US, which you did. you can't do you can do that no longer. Yeah. No, I've lost all my affiliations with US partnerships, with U.S organizations, with US universities. I've seen people running away from me because of course The chilling effect is powerful those working on Palestine are vulnerable this to the, you know, capriciousness of this government, of this administration The US government has said it sanctioned Francesca Alrbonzi for cooperating with the ICC, the International Criminal Court, which is pursuing prosecution of Israeli nationals for war crimes It also accused Albanzi of being unfit for service as a UN special raapporteur in February. Francesca's husband and daughter filed lawsuit against the Trump administration. arguing that she was being punished for speaking out about Israel's abuses against Palestinians Two weeks ago federal judge in Washington, D.C backed their claim. Albanzi, he wrote, in quite a scathing legal opinion, has done nothing but speak. He ruled the sanctions should for now be lifted Finally, Francesca had some relief Last Friday, a US courourt of appppeal overturned that decision Francesca remains sanctioned As the UN spepecial rapporteur, you are one of the first people in the United Nations to call Israel's military campaign in Gaza a genocide and You knew making that argument was going to be huge, risky even What was the legal basis for your argument at that point. My main Legal basis was the Genocide Convention. The Genocide Convention is one of the most adamant and clear legal instruments ever produced by the international community. And it says the intention to destroy a national ethnic, religious or ritial group as such is considered genocidal And it can happen through various acts, ass of killing members of the group or inflicting severe bodily or mental harm members of the group creating the conditions of life calculated to destroy the group as such the prevention of birth of the seraction of children. The thing is that these acts are crimes in and of themselves. However, they constitute genocide when they are committed with intent to destroy the group, with the intent to destroy physically and biologically the group as such This is what I used. I of course read The main jurisprudence existing in the Rwanda tribunal, former Yugoslavia triribunal, the International Court of Justice. I studied what the main experts have said And I had no doubt whatsoever. that we could already speak of genocide In march twenty twenty four Israel was killing without resite, without distinctions, without respect for proportionality and precautions, which are the basic tenets of international humanitarian law hundred and fifty civilians each day. It didn't count. It didn't matter if they were Doctors, priests infants Everyone was destroyable. Everyone was skillable. Eone was mimable. And this is how Israel had managed to kill thirty thousand, thirty thousand Palestinians in Gaza alone in a few months and it has used international law jurgon to justify its operations. and international community has allowed it to do so using evacuation orders, human shields, collateral damage, safe zones, Nhing of these has ever been real. And still, this is the language that has allowed Israel to benefit from impunity Leagly How do you measure in the case of Gaza there is an intention to destroy rather than what could be argued, it's a criminal or reckless, even vengeful pursuit of war. Okay. So first of all First of all, let's put genocide aside for a moment. Occupation is unlawful And the very presence of Israel there is unlawful The second piece. Israel should take precautions, should not kill civilians. The moment it kills for days, weeks, months, civilians without respite. What is it a series of war crimes shall not the international community intervene? Of course it should. So war crimes are violations of the law of war. So destroying hospitals, destroying schools, destroying homes. Israel has raided, raided, pulverized. the Gaza Strip. Most of it, very little remains standing. Was it necessary? no? Was it justified under international humanitarian law? No. So why is has it not been stopped? But there is another element Certain crimes when they are widespread and systemic like the deprivation of food, the deprivation of humanitarian aid, This is systemic, it's not a single act, It's not a single bombing This is a crime against humanity. Forced displacement is a crime against humanity usings starvation as a tool of war, it can be both a war crime, but when it's systematic and widespread, is a crime against humanity. So why has this not been stopped The point is that the intention has been communicated, communicated by leaders, communicated by soldiers. We will annihilate Gaza. We will turn Gaza to the middle age. There will not be Palestinians remain in Gaza. Everyone is responsible. There are human animals, E the newborns are responsible because they will grow into This is really you know that you have this kind of language in the Nuremberg trials. In the Nuremberg trials there was an officer asked but why would you kill civilians Because they represented a security threat, including children, asked the prosecutors Yes, because they will grow hating us for what we did to them Franic, I don't think anyone listing doubts your passassion, clarity, expertise on the subject, Itpirered people see you as brave and courageous and all those things. Of course, others have taken a very different view, and I want to talk about some of the criticisms lelled at you. Firstly that you've been described as unfit for your role, that you lack the impartiality required for the UN How do you address that? What is impartiality? This is my question. What is impartiality? Because impartiality is assessing the facts for what they are Okay. And we are entitled machine to different opinions, but we are not entitled to different facts Impartiality is to look at the facts for what they are and then draw conclusions and my conclusions are always legal qualification. I don't say what I think as personal opinion. produce legal analysis. So I tell the Israelis, the Israeli governments or its allies Germany, Italy or France in Europe Challenge. The facts challenge the facts. they don't have arguments to challenge the fact, so they accuse me. And they think that they're going to, I mean, of course they arere harming me. Of course, of course it's exhausting. and of course it takes a psychological toll. But look, if we were in nineteen thirty eight People like me would endure the same would be not heard or ridiculed or accused or vilified. But I would say Today, everyone is morally clear that they would have defended the Jewish people one hundred years ago, but one hundred years ago, defending the Jewish people was not popular at all because the Jewish people were considered an unwanted population, an unwanted encumbrance. This is what like the Palestinians today. So I don't mind taking the brand. and again, it's just a minority of people who stands against what I'm saying or what Amnest International, the Commission of Inquiry on Israel, Palestine, the Special Committee on Israeli practices, Israeli historians, Israeli human rights organizations, we are all partials. The only one imp partials are the Israelis, the Italian goovernment, the German government, the U.S. goovernment and France. I want to talk also specifically about other criticisms you've received, namely of anti Semitism. Firstly, in twenty fourteen, you said that the US was subjugated by the Jewish lobby, which you have apologized for. And then since then, there was a recent retweet which compared a photo of Benjamin Netanyahu to one of Adolf Hitler. and another tweet where you draw a direct link between the Holocaust and what is happening in Gaza. You wrote in february twenty twenty four that october seventh victims weren't killed because of their Judaism, but in reaction to Israel's oppression. Francesca, how do you explain those statements, how do you address them First of all, the question of the Jewish lobby being subjugating the US, I was talking I was referring to APAC. APAC is one of the largest lobbying groups. Wh's on record for influencing U S. policy. Now, the thing is that I know now like over a decade the later Fal, I never said anything like that in my capacity as a special rapporteur. I didn't apologize. I clarified what I said because I've never meant to offend anyone But I learned after that saying Jewish lobby is something antisemitic. I said, I'm really sorry if it caused suffering. but this was not intentional. And of course, I've not done it ever since The other examples that you quote should be contextualized because of course if you say, Oh, you published a picture of Hitler and Netanyu next to each other, okay, I would say people listening to you could say, oh my God, this person is really is really not even minded. But this is not what they did. There was a former UN official with thirty years experience in the US. So it's not a random guy He posted a picture of a cheering crowd receiving Hitler Next to a cheering crowd in the US receiving Netanyahu. It was about the cheering, the cheering of people who who then be accused of heinous crimes And so I didn't post anything. I just commented under the picture as I I've been thinking the same because yes, I've been thinking the same. When I saw the U. S giving a standing ovation to Netanyahu, when there were already reports of war crimes and crimes against humanity, what's the point of receiving him and giving him a standing ovation And actually, I do make the connection, which doesn't mean a comparison. I do make the connection to the Holocaust all the time. And you know why? Because I'm European and this is my history. Like any American, any US citizen should realize that their history is one of settler colonialism Native Americans have been subjugated, oppressed, and eventually erased. So I'm telling people, never again is not a tribals slogan. We need to learn from the past because for decades, discriminating, mistreating the Jewish people, what's considered normal and acceptable. in Europe. Now it's not, but the accusation of antiemitis is being thrown at people as confettis just as a way to distract. from Israel's responsibilities. Francesca, I hear what you're saying, but do you not accept that the language and the constant invocation of the Holocaust is In one part hurtful to Jewish people. And on the other clunky and perhaps undermines and counterproductive to the arguments you're trying to make So let's say let's say if I say we have learned nothing from the genocide in Rwanda or from the genocide in Bosnia, I'm going to offend the Rwandis The Totsi survivors or the memory of the Tutsi victims or the Bosnian survivors and the memory of the victims? Is this what you are inferring No, what I'm saying is I don't doubt your intent, but the minute that one invokes the Holocaust, you almost lose the room, irrespective of how true is is the comp. But but but so then if you're if as a sophisticated legal scholar If you're trying to enhance some minds, is language not important when we all agree that it really matters? Yes. and this is why I use the language great preisions. The problem is that and people, especially in the West, continue to describe the Holocaust as an exception. The Holocaust was not an exception. The Holocaust has been the worst Crime ever committed on European soil But it was not the exception. It was part and parcel of an aberration That was typical of white supremacism. White supremacism has been the basis of colonialism. So I really take an issue. I really take an issue with the isolation of the Holocaust because it means disconnecting from history from what has happened to millions and millions of indigenous people in Latin America, in Africa or in Australia So I'm sorry if some Jewish people gets offended by this. But again, I do not distinguish human beings on the ground of religion. For me, all humans are the same, regardless of sex, gender, political identity, religious identity, or anything. I mean, people are all the same And they should be protected and recognized all the same and especially because as a European, I've learned from my family and my education that never again is to keep alive the memory of the past. I say, let's unpack what the Holocaust has been. The Holocaust, we have conveniently reduced the Holocaust to the concentration camps The concentration camp was or the gas chambers, they were the final solutions. But do you think that the Jewish people have enjoyed living in ghettos, being kicked out of their professions, being victim of events like Kryistelnacht, having to be on the run or hide in people's homes not to be killed This is not genocide. Of course it's genocide, even if Jewish people were killed outside the concentration camps. And this is why I'm saying, no, no. I'm going to keep on bringing the Holocaust to the center because people need to understand that the genocide happens when there is dehumanization. and really I really take an issue with the fact you know, this posture of, oh, you know, you are not impartial because or you know you do not respect the Jewish people. Of course I respect the Jewish people so much that their pain is inside my mind every day. And especially because of that, I recognize that their pain Is Palestinians life every day? Is it that difficult to see the humanity of the other A we living through the death of international law Both since the ceasefire last October, and especially since the outbreak of war in Iran, the world's attention has shifted away from Gaza What's the situation there day to day right now It's horrible It's really horrible The Gaza Swrip was already one of the highest populated places in the world before october twenty twenty three Now Israel has occupied and has leveled to the ground, most of the Gaza strip And the population that remains about one point eight million people, those who have not been killed, those who have not fled, they are corled. in a piece of land that's in proximity of the sea. So for example, last winter, they were living in a makeshift tents which have not resisted the elements. There were storms, that there were flooding. and now that the weather has improved and the temperature are rising There is a plague of rodents attacking them And there is no humanitarian aid properly entering. There are civilian trucks, good for sale that have entered, but the YL system has collapsed long ago. So they are just on a survival mode And it's painful to see that international media And u Many politicians have decided to move on told do you think it's hard on you and your mental health? looking and studying and examining what's been happening in Gaza over the last couple of years. It's the humanizing It's de humanizing because you know I'm trained to interview victims of violence. I'm trained to deal with children who have gone through what the Palestinians have gone through. And at the same time, you are not supposed to do that on a daily basis for four years So clearly, it has taken a toll on me There is no softer pillow than am a light conscience. I'm so happy. I have an opportunity to do the right thing instead of sitting in the margins and letting history be written by others. I've never been particularly You know, I've never been an activist, so I've never been particularly courageous, particularly generous other than with my in my own environment This time, I'm called on doing something that is bigger than me is bigger than anything I've ever imagined doing in my life. And I take it humbly and I say, I'll do my best And my sense of Duty becomes only stronger with every day of unaddressed Violence of every day of non delivered justice Francesca, when listeners are taking in everything you've said and when we look at you know what we've seen and what's happening in the world and you know, commentators saying that you know there's been a death of international law and that when you look at what's happening, not just in Gaza, Ukraine, Venezuela, It's the collapse of the rules based order Hope is there There will be accountability and what could it look like or what will it look like? It's not the international law that is dead. International law is being violated by those who should apply it. But those who paay the price is citizens. is entire communities. And this is why it's time to push for a convergence. I often say Those who have nothing to gain from the collapse of the rule of law system, thoseose who have nothing to gain from a return of fascism ordinary citizens, wherever they are on the left or right of the political spectrum, those who do not own the extractive industry, the military industry, the big tech financial powers and banks and mean financial assets whichich means the majority of the world, what do we have to gain? from condoning this lawlessness. Why would we let politicians run away with crimes instead of holding them accountable All of us wake up from these sort of slumber and realize that if they go after the defenders, Ordinary citizens have no means left if the decisions of the international criminal justice or the arrest warrants of the ICC become dead letter. What is the guarantee we have against the abuse of power? Let me tell you in one word, none This is the time to educate. this is the time to stand together and defend the rule of law system. Fighting injustice It's not like winning a battle on a video game It's a marathon. Francesca, thank you so much for your time Thank you That was UN spepecial rapporteur, Francesca Albanesei back When the world sleeps, stories, words and wounds of Palestine is out now and available to buy from all good bookshops. That's it for today. This episode was presented by me, Noshi Nik Bal It was produced by ELIBlock. and Saskia Colet Sound Design is by Ross Burns, the executive prodducers were Sammy Ken and Humer Kili We'll be back this afternoon with the latest This is the Guardian.