Imminent Threats to Abortion Access

This is the Guardian Hey, it's Carter Sherman here, host of the Guardian's new podcast States Side with Kay and Carter. Today we're bringing you one of our latest episodes. It looks at why the political and legal fight over abortion pills in the US is really just at the beginning Listen on to hear the episode in full and find all of our shows every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday on Apple videoide podcasts, YouTube, or wherever you are hearing this If you're looking for something predictable and low friction over the long term, public markets may be a suitable option the moment you want different investment characteristics, it may be time to consider the private markets See how your wealth can work smarter at creativeplanning d. com slash access What I see in terms of anti abortion movement rhetoric is that I fear that there is going to be a continued push to criminalize the abortion patient Ten years ago, this was almost unthinkable that the anti abortion rights movement would say out loud that a strategy for reducing the number of abortions was to put abortion seekers or abortion patients in jail. But now we're seeing more and more of this conversation in the press and we're also seeing state legislatures taking this up From the Guardian, this is Stateside. I'm Carter Sherermman Okay right Today, the fight over abortion pills is just beginning Hi, as you know, before I entered the glorious world of podcasting with this show, I covered gender and sexuality for ten years So I wanted to bring you a fact you might not know In the years since the US. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, abortions in the US have actually gone up, not down In twenty twenty four, for example, there were more than one point one million abortions in the United States, which is the highest number on record in recent years. So I had heard they'd gone up, but I didn't realize by quite that much. Is that considered a surprising victory in the abortion rights movement I think it speaks to the breadth and the depth of the organizing that advocates have undertaken in the year since Rowfell In particular, advocates have worked very hard on expanding access to abortion pills. and they have started mailing pills into states with abortion bans so that even people who live under those bans can still end their pregnancies. For the anti abortion movement, though, this isn't asistential threat.. And recently, the fight over abortion pills made its way all the way back up Supree Court And when you say abortion pills, just so we can level set, what are we talking about Well, in a medication abortion, which is an abortion that is mediated through drugs There are two drugs that people tend to take. The first is called mipopristone. And you take one dose of it, twenty four hours later, you take doses of a second drug called mesoproistol The mipopistone stops the pregnancy from growing, the misoproistol contracts the uterus so that it expels the pregnancy And it is after that taking of the second drug, mesoprostostol that people tend to have the side effects that you associate with an abortion. So bleeding, cramping, nausea, diarrhea, et cetera. So it's Mithapstone and mesapstol, right Which one of them is at stake now in the court fight? Okay, so that is myipapristone.ot it. Myipapristone is the drug that is at stake right now. Last year, Louisiana sued the FDA over the fact that it allows abortion providers to mail them if it pressed out And on may first, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled to pause mail order access to Ma Pristone while litigation in Louisiana's case plays out. Easily the most conservative court in the appeal circuit. Absolutely So what that means is that under the fififth Circuit's ruling, no one can get access to mail order Map Pistone, including people who live in states that don't ban abortion. People who live in blue states who might think that their abortion rights are protected And are they arguing in court that they're doing this because MFa Pristone is unsafe? Is it a safety debate we're having here? That argument has entered the chat, shall we say? But it's not really a good faith argument. MFA Pristone and Misa Pristone are incredibly well researched. More than a hundred studies conducted across more than a dozen countries have found that When you use these two drugs to end a pregnancy, it is a safe and effective abortion method in the first trimester of pregnancy Now the thing to understand here is that it is possible to have a mesoproostol only abortion and just use that second drug in the regimen But it tends to be less safe and less effective. But abortion providers have said that if they're not allowed to mail Mipap Pristone anymore, they'll send people Misap Pristone only. So now I did follow this court case. Many people will have seen the news that the Supreme Court has decided to allow in that Louisiana case to allow continued access to Mipapristone, right? So R Again, this seems like a victory and is that the end of it? That you know we continue to have access to abortion pills now? Well, no, basically what the Supreme Court did is they just punted. They just kicked the can down the road. and presumably, they might want to avoid having this argument in open court until after the midterms There's a lot to unpack here and we're going to get into it. We don't know what the Supreme Court is ultimately going to do with abortion pills. But the thing that haunts me is that in the years before Roe V. Wade was overturned, when I was working as a reporter covering abortion rights I spent a lot of time telling people that Roe was going to be overturned. And the thing was that people just didn't believe me. They just did not think that that was possible. And I think a lot about this woman I spoke to in the summer of twenty twenty one. I was working on a story then called The Last suummer of Roe V. Wade And I asked her why she wasn't worried about the erosion of abortion rights. And she said, quote We're two countries and that's happening more in the other one. This is an all too common perspective on a whole lot of issues and a lot of people are being disabused of that belief here lately. Right. We now live in a country where about a dozen states bann virtually all abortions. And for the people who live in those states, oftentimes their only way to end their pregnancies to get an abortion is to get Mipapristone through the mail To that end, I recently spoke with someone who' on the front lines of this issue. Her name is Dr. Angel Foster, and she is an abortion provider who mails abortion pills to people throughout the country, including people who live in states with abortion bans. I spoke to her about what the last few weeks have been like for her and the women her practice treats But the thing hanging over our entire conversation is that I think the recent Supreme Court case indicates that the anti abortion movement already has the tool that it needs to ban abortion And when I say ban abortion, I don't just mean abortion through the mail, I don't just mean Miffick Pristone. I mean that the anti abortion movement may already have the tool to ban abortion nationwide for everyone under virtually all circumstances. So if you are a person who supports abortion rights and most Americans are, you really need to pay attention to what is happening with abortion pills Dr. Angel Foster, thank you so much for joining us on stateside. Thanks so much for having me. It's nice to speak with you. You run the Massachusetts Medication Abortion Access proroject or the map And I think since the overturning of Re, the map has probably become one of the biggest abortion providers in the country. I actually visited you guys, as you might remember, several months ago and watched volunteers pack pills, put together packages to send to patients. And I'm wondering How many abortions is the MAap facilitating each month at this point So we're providing care to between three thousand and three thousand five hundred patients a month And we launched on september twenty eighth of twenty twenty three, which was International Safe Aortion Day And since our launch, we've now cared for more than fifty thousand patients Who is a typical patient for the map? Is there a typical patient So u A third of our patients are from Texas About ninety percent of our patients come from near total band states or six week band states. And so We are both caring for patients that previously got in person care. And I think what we're now seeing is that folks who weren't able to get abortions prior to Dobs because they couldn't afford it and couldn't navigate the systems now being are now able to access high quality affordable abortion care. It's been a long few weeks for you On may first, the fifth Circuit ruled that Abortion providers could no longer mail Myipa Pristone Louisiana sued over access to that common abortion pill. On may fourth, the Supreme Court stayed that ruling preserving access to myifapristone. But that kicked off more than a week of uncertainty about the pill's future We are speaking the day after the Supreme Court issued a decision that preserved the status quo and preserves access to mail order if Pristone This is definitely not the end of the case. I'm wondering, what have those last few weeks been like for you It has been a tough two weeks So the Fifth Circuit's decision was released on may first, which was a Friday We had already sent packages to patients that afternoon before the decision was announced Packages of abortion pills. Packages of abortion pills that included miphopistone and mesoprostol. So over that weekend, we were really working with three different groups of patients The first were the three hundred and fifty or so patients that we had sent packages with mphopristone and mesoprostostol to in the previous few days. onn the Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday before the decision was released And those patients hadn't received their packages yet. And so we were inundated with questions about Am I going to get my pills still as the post office going to intercept my package? Can I take the mifipristone once it arrives But the second group of patients, which is the group that we spent the most time with over that weekend were those who had already been approved for our service, but who hadn't yet paid for the pills. by the time the Fifth Circuit's decision was released And it's actually pretty common for our patients to request pills in the last week of the month but then not pay for them until after the first, because that's when people get paychecks And so over that weekend, we had about two hundred people who were kind of in this limbo stage And so we were explaining know what the options were for our patients that they could wait for a week and see what happens we could send them the musoprostol only regimen if that's what they wanted. We could issue a refund. And then we were also trying to explain to patients that Even if we weren't able to send Mipipristone through the mail, there would be other ways for them to get the Mipipristone mesoprostol regimen And then the third group of patients were the new patients who were starting the process with our service. And so we spent that weekend really building out all of our systems so that all of those patients would understand that we would send methapristone and mesoproostal if we could, but if not, we would send just the mesoprostostal and that they would get instructions and information about how to use it and When I think about what our patients have gone through over the last two weeks, you know, it makes me really sad Why? Well, for them, I mean, I'm somebody who's in this space. I often say I sort of live and breathe abortion. and sometimes I'm confused about what some of these decisions mean For our patients who are maybe reading the headlines and don't really understand What's happening in the broader politics of abortion, but what they want is to be unpregnant It makes them tremendously anxious You know, am I going to be able to get the abortion pills that I want? Am I going to be able to be unpregnant quickly? How do I do that? Are you going to still be able to help me? And if not, what do I do What is this court? Why does somebody in Louisiana get to determine what I do? I don't understand. abortion is legal in my state or how does this affect me? Just having no idea why something that a fifth circuit court would decide on a Friday afternoon would impact their ability to have an abortion pill sent to them on Monday It sounds like you're to mitigate all this confusion. There was a lot of damage control you were trying to get done. But I feel like folks might hear what had happened and think, okay, why doesn't Why don't people just take misoproostol? Why is it a big deal to switch from a mifiprostone plus misoprostol regimen to the misoproostol only protocol So from the medical side, mesoprostol only or mesoprostol is a single abortifacient regimen is highly safe and effective We have evidence based regimens that we use. We have a lot of experience using this regimen internationally in places where Pstone is not available. So from so we have this very good alternative regimen The regimen does have more side effects that are associated with it because There's more mesoprostl and mesoprostol is the drug that really has the side effects. And so we want patients side effects that people assosoci abortion with medication abortion And there's ongoing research to really look at the efficacy or the completion rate with mesoprostol. It sounds like if you're saying that a mesoprostol only abortion is associated with more side effects, more nausea, more cramping, more bleeding It does sound like those are abortions that cause individuals more suffering. right? I mean, I think of it as being less comfortable. We do know that people who use mesoproostol alone all over the world are very satisfied with the regimen and have good outcomes, but it you know we have a gold standard and that gold standard involves mipopristone, and there's a reason for that. It makes for a more comfortable and shorter process this deceision that the Fifth Circuit issued was in addition to being a travesty and not Rrounded in science was also cruel It was cruel because it didn't take into consideration that there were real people who were in the process of getting abortion care and that this would wreak havoc on their ability to do that and cause a lot of stress and anxiety And it's cruel because we can pivot to another regimen, but it's a regimen that is potentially less comfortable for patients and it's really feels like it's a way of trying to punish people for getting the abortion care they want need and deserve It feels like a punishment people from the court. It feels like the court is trying to punish people. Right. And the thing that really keeps me up at night and is what's happening within emergency departments in the United States right now everywhere in the world with very, very rare exception, even where abortion is severely legally restricted if a patient has a complication and gets to a hospital, they're given post abortion care And they're given that care and not turned over to authorities. they're not thrown out on the street, they are treated for whatever their medical needs are at that facility But what's happening in the United States is that Abortion patients who and pregnant people in general who are presenting at theospal at a hospital with complications are not getting the care that is standard. and To me, that's that just continues to be shocking. If it becomes no longer possible for abortion providers to mail abortion pills, What patients What arere there particular groups of patients that you're most worried about So one of the groups of patients that I'm worried about are those patients that are experiencing intimate partner violence in all of its different forms. We just recently completed a study with the more than three thousand patients who Um, completed our medical questionnaire and got pills from our service in March of twenty twenty six and eight percent of our patients orted experiencing one or more forms of violence either in becoming pregnant or during the pregnancy. So you not over the course of their lives, not in the last twelve months, but during the current pregnancy and For these patients being able to get pills by mail is sometimes a lifeline. It's a way for them to extricate themselves from abusive relationships. it's a way for them to sever ties with an abusive partner. And for some of these patients who are in these in these violent relationships, they don't have the option of being able to travel across state lines. We also know that violence is kind of co occurs with financial procarity. I have a couple of stories from patients that I think are really telling this one is from a twenty three year old patient from Oklahoma, and she wrote to us to say The man I'm impregnated by had assaulted me by strangulation and is being charged with domestic abuse I found out I was pregnant when I got rushed to the emergency department I want nothing to do with this man being a part of my life to be able to hurt me again I would really greatly appreciate the help from y'all Thank you Um A twenty nine year old patient from South Carolina wrote to us to say I just left a domestic violence situation with the father of all the kids. It's only been three weeks of him being in jail, and I just found out I was a stay at home mom for seven years and have literally just started getting all of the balls caught up and figuring out life I have no idea how to even afford this right now But I cannot have another had extremely difficult pregnancies and end up hospitalized almost every time and I don't have a support system to help And so I fear that if We are unable to provide care through our telemedicine service to patients in states with near total bands or with severe gestational duration restrictions, It's patients like these that are not going to get the care that they need One of the things that was most interesting to me about the ruling from the Supreme Court was actually the dissent that Justice Samuel Alito wrote And he says that at the heart of this case over M Pristone is really quote, the perpetration of a scheme to undermine our decision in jobs spe in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which is, of course, the case that overturned Roe v. Wade And what Alito is talking about is the existence of shhield laws, which are these laws, as you know, that have been passed in states like New York and California and Massachusetts. that to protect abortion providers from out of state prosecutions, even in cases where the providers are mailing pills across state lines into states that ban abortion. The Massachusetts shield law is of course, what makes the map possible When you saw Alito's desscent, when you saw that he is when you saw that he is so skeptical of shield laws What did you think? What did you make of that decision I'm not a lawyer, but when I read the dissent, what immediately came to mind was that Justice Alito was providing a roadmap for anti abortion actors, anti abortion rights actors, providing them a roadmap for how to go after shield law providers. and using language that suggested that there were conspiracies and schemes that involved the pharmaceutical company the providers, potentially the state, other kind of advocacy groups This current stay that's been extended of the fifth Circuit's decision is just another step in this process. The anti abortion rights movement is preoccupied with restricting methapistone in particular, but medication abortion more generally. And they're doing a lot of things to do that, whether that's these suits that are coming through attorneys general or the lawsuits against individual providers, whether those are criminal or civil suits And what we're seeing is the shield laws in states where individual providers have been indicted or sued The shldbws are doing their job. The shieldbws are working We can't anticipate that this is going to happen, but really, cases like this have real implications for you as a person and other providers as individuals At least two doctors have so far been indicted for allegedly shipping abortion pills across state lines into states that ban abortion neeither of those doctors have actually been apprehended because they're staying out of Louisiana, which is the state that indicted them But you could be next. what kind of precautions do you take to protect yourself? Everybody who's involved with the map has done their own kind of individual risk assessment to determine what makes the most sense for each person. in my case, because I'm the most public facing person involved with the map I don't travel to or through states with near total abortion bans or states with gestational duration restrictions I don't drive a car outside of Massachusetts and I I fly into the country. When I leave the US, I fly back through Canada Why don't you drive a car in states outside of Massachusetts? So this is an interesting information that I would never have thought of, but this is advice that came from lawyers. It turns out that for in general, for people who are law abiding, the time when you have the most contact or the time at which you are at most risk of having contact with law enforcement agencies is when you drive a car traffic violations, car accidents, witnessing a car accident, anything like that And if you can imagine you're I'm outside of Massachusetts, it turns out that there's some kind of either subpoena or warrant or something that's been issued against me I get into a car accident, somebody in another state, even a friendly state in New England runs my name and that pops up And so one of the things that lawyers have advised is that's another way to decrease or minimize risk is just to not put yourself in a place where you're vulnerable for getting getting pulled over don't Go to red states. Do you feel like your life has been cururtailed at all? Are you missing out on things The biggest thing for me is that my mom and stepdad live in South Carolina So I'm not able to visit them in person there and have it for over two point a half years. And that makes me sad. We see each other in other places and we made the decision as a family that this is what we wanted to do. And my husband's been really supportive of that Um that U But that does make me sad. I mean, I feel like what you're doing is it's kind of radical. Like it is a risk. Providing abortion can be a really dangerous business. eleven people have been killed in anti abortion violence. There have been hundreds of arson attacks, of bombings, of butyeric acid attacks You keep the physical location of the map itself. Y office is a secret Do you worry at all that when abortion is back in the headlines like this, that you or the people who volunteer with the map are in actual danger? I mean, we certainly all think about it and have decided collectively that that risk is worth it because the care that we're providing is so important After the Supreme Court ruling came out on Thursday evening, Louisiana's attorney general Liz Murll said, quote, It's shocking that the Supreme Court would block the Common Sense's return to medically ethical practices and oversight DOJ did not defend Big phharma, which is profiting from the illegal and unethical distribution of abortion pills. we will keep fighting What do you feel like that fight is going to look like next? Where do you think the anti abortion movement is going to attack next? Well, I certainly think there's going to be a sort of multip pronged attack on medication abortion pills in general and on mphoproistone in particular But the thing that I'm watching and again, I say this as a non lawyer, but as someone who's been following what's going on in state legislatures, what I see in terms of anti abortion movement rhetoric is that I fear that there is going to be a continued push to criminalize the abortion patient And you know ten years ago, this was almost unthinkable that the anti abortion rightights movement would say out loud that a strategy for reducing the number of abortions was to put abortion seekers or abortion patients in jail, but now we're seeing We're seeing more and more of this conversation in the press, and we're also seeing state legislatures kind of taking this up. And you know that is That's just devastating. That's just so awful. It's only a handful of countries in the world where there are abortion bans where No women and other pregnancy capable people have actually gone to jail. So it really that it's upsetting that I think this is the direction. and I think part of the reason that this is the direction that at least some part of the anti abortion rights movement is going in is because The number of abortions have actually increased since Dobs and even if Sld Bw providers all went away tomorrow. evenven if Mipopristone by telemedicine was no longer available People will still be able to get metephopristone and mesoprostol. They'll be able to get that through community networks, they'll be able to get medication abortion pills through international clinics. That's not going to go away Yeah, I mean, I can say as someone who covered abortion rights for ten years I was really struck by how in the last year, I think it was about a dozen states introduced laws that would have criminalized that would have treated abortion as homicide, which is to say women who got abortions would be treated as murderers em faced criminal consequences accordingly And the thing is, you know, these proposals get introduced every year but they usually I feel like draw more outrage and controversy. And then in the last year it was just sort of like, oh, this is may be an increasingly normal thing to propose. Maybe it's not something that people need to get e up in arms about And I was really struck by it seems like the normalization of this idea, which is incredibly politically unpopular, even among most of the anti abortion movement I agree with you. I mean, I think we're seeing some slight shifts in the Overton window, and I think this is a good example of that where I think back to when U when Donald Trump was running the first time and was asked on was asked in an interview about whether or not a woman who has an abortion should go to jail if abortion is illegal. And he said, yes And it felt like the entire anti abortion rights community at that point was like, no, that's not the message. canan't say that. That's not the right thing. we're pushing. It's not what we're doing and had to do this whole backtracking of that. And you know, that was a little that was ten years ago. And now I agree with you. It's not that these not that fetal personhood bills have never been introduced or no one's thought about this before the way that they're being discussed, the fact that they're actually being debated, the fact that organizations are Ati abortion rights movement organizations are issuing statements about them. It really does feel like there's a bit of a shifted time Dror Angel Foster, thank you so much for your time Thank you What if Scaed businesses I I scaled my philanthropy. What if I did as much in one year as I've done in my whole life? See how your wealth could have even greater meaning at creativeplanning d. com slash impact High interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face. Unless you power up with a so far personal loan A so fi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment It's even got super speed. since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you signed Visit sofi d. com slash power to learn more. That's SOFi dot com slash PoW ER. loans originated by SFi Bank NA, member FIC terms and conditions supppply NMLS six nine six eight nine one I think some people might hear Dr. Foster talk about the idea that the anti abortion movement is going to criminalize women and think that that is a loononey tunes take. I think it's a terrifying thing I think that that is also a valid response. And I think that a lot of people are taking comfort in the fact that within the mainstream pro life movement, quote unquote that this is not a politically popular position. This is not what most people in the mainstream want to see happen. I can say, as someone who has covered this issue for many, many years, the idea that we would criminalize women for abortions has slowly but surely started to creep into mainstream thought. Do I think that this is something we're going to see anti abortion activists embrace in the next year? No. Do I think we might start to see it in the next ten years? Very possibly? Certainly the lesson of American history and the lesson of this modern C consonservative movement is believe them when they tell you something And if they're floating up ideas today, then within the next five to ten years, we're going to start to see those things take the shape of laws. All right, so then what are the realistic like imminent threats that you're looking at right now that makes you feel like We are at the near the end game on having access to any abortion rights anywhere in the country Well, I think there are four major threats to abortion access that are imminent and that I am watching very closely. Those are the things that I wanted to talk about because I do feel like again, if you are someone who cares about abortion rights, you need to know about these things because they can sneak up on you if you're not paying close attention The first threat is that there are lots of lawsuits around MFa Pristone and around access to abortion pills. This lawsuit, the one that made its way up to the Supreme Court from the fififth Circuit, that is going to continue. It will likely get appealed at the fififth Circuit. It may ultimately go back to the Supreme Court for oral arguments But there are other lawsuits that have also been filed. Most notably, there was a lawsuit filed by the Republican attorneys Genal of Kansas, Missouri, and Idaho that has also asked for the FDA to limit access to Mipipristone They even recently filed paperwork while this case at the Supreme Court was ongoing, saying, we want to push forward, we want to continue with this lawsuit and see what we can get The second threat that I'm following was actually mentioned in this most recent Supreme Court ruling There are two dissents in this case. One of them was written by Samuel Alito, and the other was written by Clarence Thomas. These are two of the most hardline right wing people on the Supreme Court and they have a track record of fighting against abortion rights. They both, in fact join the consonservative majority in overturning Roy Wade. So I want to start Kai by asking you to read from Alito's descent. if you can give me your best Samuel Alito here. Oh, the things that I do for this job I I am so sorry. really, really. Okay, here we go. So this is Samuel Alito writing He says, quote States, including Louisiana, made abortion illegal except in narrow circumstances But Louisiana's efforts have been thwarted by certain medical providers, private organizations, and states that abore laws like Louisian's and seek to undermine their enforcement. These medical providers and private organizations have developed an operation enabling women E ennabling women. Can you believe these women being enabled enabling women in Louisiana. and other states that restrict abortions to place an online order for a pill called Myphopristone reduces abortion. I am going to thank Samuel Alito for reminding us what Mipip Pristone is because again, it's confusing And I will just translate what you just said because it's dense, it's legally easy Remember, this was a case that was brought out of Louisiana, a state that has banned virtually all abortions. in this oparation, quote unquote, that Alita was talking about He is talking about the exact kind of operations that are run by people like Dr. Angel Foster and her colleagues doctor Foster and I talked about this a little bit, but her work is made possible entirely by the existence of this novel legal strategy called Sield Bs Do you know these are? Yeah. So these are the laws that some states like New York passed to say, okay, if you are providing abortion services here We are going to protect you from prosecution by some outside state that wants to come and grab you. Exactly. And in some of these states, including New York, including Massachusetts, including California, they have specifically said that it doesn't matter where the abortion patient is located So if I am an abortion provider in New York City and I never leave the boundaries of my state and I mail an abortion pill to someone in say, Texas, I can still be protected by the shhield law, at least in theory, because a New York official is not going to assist Texas if they try to come after me and try to prosecute me. But Texas will certainly try to come after you. I mean, we've already started to see it. We've already started to see many red states getting really angry about these shield laws and trying to sue or even indict people who are allegedly shipping abortion pills across state lines into red states. And so why exactly has Alito brought this up in the course of this ruling I mean, it's speculative. But I do think that Dr. Foster is right when she says that Alito is trying to draw a roadmap for anti abortion advocates who are trying to figure out how to continue to undermine shHield laws. Like inviting for future cases. Potentially, yeah, is maybe he's sending up some kind of smoke signal to say, hey, I'm not a huge fan of abortion. I'm not a huge fan of shield laws. Bing me something that will allow me to say that in writing from the highest court in the nation a lot of people were concerned about in Clarence Thomas's concurring opinion on in getting rid of Roe in the first place that he was inviting cases to get rid of same sex marriage under the same kind of case law So thank you so much for bringing up Clarence Thomas. He is actually very critical to the third threat. Remember, this is a list of four possible threats.. This is, I would say, the biggest threat to abortion access And Specifically, Clarence Thomas brings up something called the ComSock Act I can see what you I can see the side you've just brought up, but I would like you to read what Clarence Tomet said I'm going to have to read Clarence Thomas on Anthony Comstocks. Eactly. is. And if you're listening, we're going gonna explain this, you're gonna hear why Kay has much consternation already in This is a low point in my professional life. Okay Clarence Stombas's opinionads, quote It is a criminal offense to ship mifipristone for use in abortions Tom Stock Act Bans using, quote, the mailes to ship, quote Any drug for producing abortion Applicants are not entitled to a stay of an adverse court order based on lost profits from their Criminal entnterprise. Criminal enterprises. So he is saying that the applicants, which to be clear, are pharmaceutical companies that manufacture Mipapristones. He is saying that they are committing a criminal enterprise because of the Comstock Act , you know what the Comstock actct is Do you wantna do a little on it? A little one on one. best. I'll do my best. Also in the best. Yeah, this is an anti insbsidity log going back to the eighteen seventies in which Anthony Comstock, one of the most despicable people in the history of the United States. whichich you know, that's a rare distinction. I have to say There's a lot of despicable people in the U.S history. Even in his time, no one liked him. Likeone of none of his allies didn't like him. He was this guy who collected dildos and sex toys and things. They were called rubber products in the literature of the time. He had an obsession with anything that produced pleasure, particularly for women. And he kind of was the pioneer of the idea of vice. And so this law, the Comstock Act, was a way to prosecute people who engaged in, quote, vice by chasing down things they sent through the mail because that lets you use federal law. Exactly, right. Anthony Comstock loved to just run around New York City and harass people who he saw as doing obscene things. And the Comstock Act in particular banned mailing, quote, any article or thing designed or intended for procuring an abortion When Roe was in effect, this was really not something that people worried about. becausecause Roe v Wade was the law of the land. abortion was legal. We don't need to think about whether or not there's this obscure law from the nineteenth century that bans the mailing of abortion related materials. And then Roe was overturned. And so now Anti abortion activists have taken a look at this law and said, wait, this is still on the books Is this still good law? We think this is still good law We think that this zombie law should be enforced I just want to say If the Comstock law was enforced, it would not just be banning the mailing of mifipistone or abortion pills It could be used to ban all abortion in the United States, becausecause even abortion clinics rely on the mail, right? They receive things that they need to do their job through the mail. That's how they can get ultrasound machine equipment. That's how they can get vacuum aspirators. That's how they can get gloves. So the ComSock Act, if it came back to life, could effectively result in a de facto nationwide abortion ban. So this is what you were talking about earlier, Exactly. you think they've already got the tool to wipe out abortion period everywhere, it's this. It's the Comstock Act, Eactly. So I hate to ask this, Carter, but like given that the law is operable still Why hasn't the Trump administration done it yet? No, this is a great question because I have to be honest, when the Trump administration came back into power, I was prepared to be writing stories about the Comstock Act being in effect and what that would mean for the American people. Whenin Re was first overturned, Joe Biden was obviously in office. He was the president, and his Department of Justice put out some guidance that basically said, we are not going to be enforcing the ComSock Act except in some very narrow circumstances The Trump administration could overturn that guidance. Would people sue over it Proably, but they could make that call. And so the question has been, really, since Trump came back into power, why hasn't he done so? And The thing is that Trump has really tried to run away from the issue of abortion. And so it's very possible that the reason we don't see a revived ComSock A right now today is because Trump really doesn't want to talk about this issue Abortion rights are incredibly popular. He knows it. The Republican Party knows it. and Trump I don't think really cares all that much about abortion. Like this is not really his top issue. He has flip flopped on it a lot And so I can't imagine he really wants to swing a spotlight back onto it at this time. especially aad the m good. Oh, yeah, especially ahead of the midterms. This is not something that I think the GOP really, really wants people to be focused on right now. Nonetheless, it is the this is the thing that's out there. It exists that could in fact end abortion, and that is chilling to think about. So you got There's the Cas is moving through the courts There's the Shield Law attack and there's Anthony Comstock's ghost Thank you. I really appreciate this su up. This is helpful. I like being listened to l. You promised me before. What fourth. Okay, so the fourth thing is that the Trump administration has taken kind of a baby step to limiting abortion access And the FDA has agreed to review the safy of Miff Pristone Now remember, Mipapristone is safe. That is not really something that is up for debate Nevertheless, the FDA, because it's reviewing it, could change the terms of access to Mhopristone. They could make it harder for abortion providers to mail it, They could make it harder for abortion providers to access it. We don't know what they're going to do, and we don't know when they're going to do it. Anti abortion activists have actually gotten kind of mad over the FDA review because they feel like it's being slowhed So we will see in the coming months and years, if anything ultimately comes out of the FDA I mean, this depends on them having a functioning FDA in the first place, which has been a challenge. Yes, that is the question of whether or not the FDA can do anything at all right now seems to be a big one So what is like the immediate next thing that you're watching? L we've got all of this stuff that we know that's on the horizon that you're concerned about. What's like the next next thing I mean, ultimately, abortion is going to end up back at the Supreme Court in some form or fashion. We don't really know how much appetite the Supreme Court justices have for this issue, but I think it's become pretty clear since Rowfell that There are so many differences in state laws around abortions. There's so many disagreements around what states owe each other when it comes to enforcing abortion laws that the Supreme Court is probably going to have to weigh in at some point The thing though that I'm really keeping an eye on is what is the anti abortion movement doing This is a movement that is incredibly motivated, right? If you believe that abortion is the killing of an innocent baby, that's a belief that's probably going to keep you extremely committed. This is a movement that's spent five decades working to overturn Re v. Wade They They stacked state legislatures with Republicans. They helped create the modern day conservative majority on the Supreme Court. They are very powerful and they are very, very committed. I think at this point, it's pretty clear that the modern day anti abortion movement is an undemocratic one because they believe something that is not popular with the majority of Americans. It is a minority that is now trying to enforce its rule on the rest of the country And it seems like the best way for them to do that will likely lie through the nine unelected justices on the Supreme Court