Joanna's Law and Final Thoughts

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie, and one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own, so you need all your jobs done well. For nearly thirty years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at anngie dot com dot Girl, do you like my shirt? I do. Steve've got this from me for my birthday. It's the logo of a newspaper from the nineteen seventies, like a local gay newspaper in. I was gonna say it's so vintage looking. It's so cute. It says gay, just in case there were any questions, I would wantents it says. Gay, yeah, gay. I am available for fifty cents. Oh my God. I know. hereere we go. Here we go Howy J M Valley. I', Pric Kine. How are you? I'm doing, okay, everyvery time we record these bonus episodes, which areth and months in advance, there's like weather. I know. Last time it was like really nice weather and now it's like tornado watches. I know.ial downpours. but it's also humid. It's like sixty degrees and rainy. which obvestly like the worst, I'll take the sixty degrees even if I have to have the rain Yeah. But like the humid rain, like the hair is a mess. like what Yeah. We're also starting like an hour and a half after we normally do it feels like tomorrow. I know.. It's also not Tuesday. It's like a mess. I know that's true It's like a mess All right, what are we talking about today? All right, welcome to the bonus episodes everybody. This is our fifth bonus episode of the year. This is an episode of forty eight Hours, seeason thirty eight, episode fourteen, Joe Hunter's Mission. She fell in love with a man that seemed charming and charismatic and he was a pastor. And immediately I was in the spirit I know. in my heart that Mark killed my sister. And then he staged it to look like She hung herself So Mark Lewis was never charged with any crime related to Joanna's death What do you make of that Appalling Total disregard for our daughter appeared to us that it was just a dismissal. The Solanto County Sheriff's Department made a decision that Joanna died by suicide within twenty eight minutes of arriving at the scene. That is a gigantic misconception. The case was still being worked. So do you stand by your office's original conclusion that Joanna Hunter took her life Yes we do. So we got to talk about Survivor for a second. Yeah, he was on like two seasons of Survivor. Yeah, he was on one and he's coming back for Survivor fifty, which is happening, I think right now as we are recording this episode. Yeah. so Natalie Morales is our host and she says right away that Survivor is also airs on CBS. Well dis cllosure. Thanks Natalie like we got you. and I love Natalie and this. Oh my. Oh my god, Natalie does her best field workork. I'm very impressed. But before we even dive in, we learn that like when Joe was on Survivor, he spoke a lot about his sister, Joanna and spoke Like about her, but he also spoke to her. likeike he was working through a lot of stuff about this tragedy that happened to her. Yeah, Survivor gets like that. I think when you're like alone on that island in the woods looking for idols e bugs, eating bugs, like like starving to death. Yeah. I think your spirituality really starts to come. And good for him like taking a platform and running with it because what happened to her and the way that police did not give a shit, likeike this family needed a major microphone and he took it and screamed into it and good for him It's october twenty sixth, twenty eleven. It's nine and twenty five PM. We're in Vacaville, California. My passenor just came out of his house. he's really, really upset and he told me to call a cop. He thinks his wife's dead. What's his name? His name is Mark Lewis. Can I talk to Mark? Can you tell me what happened? I look what happened. I don't how to talk about it I thought We learned that this guy named Mark Lewis, who's a pastor, has one of his parishioners call nine hundred and eleven. And I'm like, So he outsourced the nine hundred ele one call. outsourced the nine hundred eleven call. Maybe I've been doing this way too long. No, you know what it's giving? It's giving like some sending somebody else into the room to find the body. Right. I was like, maybe I've been doing this too long or he doesn't want his voice on record doing a shady convincing nine hundred eleven call. Yeah. Well, my wife. It doesn't really work because the friend immediately hands the phone to him. find out it' thirty six year old wife, Joanna was found hanging in the bedroom closet using the They call it like the sash from her bath bathrobe as the noose. they say. Yeah. fourourteen minutes later, nine thirty nine PM. deputies are on the scene. So the report says there weren't any signs of a struggle. There was an open suitcase and a note that said, takeake care of the dogs And Mark Lewis, this fucking pastor is handcuffed and briefly questioned, and then we don't really talk to him again if I'm the cops. So one hundred percent, this was deemed a suicide because he said so at the scene. If you're on the patreon, we saw this with the Ellen Greenberg case. The husband said it was a suicide. They did not send investigators out. like the literal patrol cops who responded to this call deemed it a suicide and that's it became going for. Goddamnit are they going to defend it to this day? Because what happens when that happens is they don't deem the crime scene a crime scene. Right. Of course they likever say, yeah. Yeahah. So well the details are that Mark says he last saw Joanna at one o'clock in the afternoon. The person who called nine hundred eleven and the church member who called nine hundred eleven said he and Mark had been outside the house Paying basketball and talking about their faith Starting at three PM. until Mark went inside and found Joanna dead No one is playing basketball for. Michael Jordan doesn't play basketball for six hours. N without a pee brereak, not without a water refill.. So they were outside for six hours and then Mark, the pastor went inside and found Joanna dead is. And so what that says is that his wife, Joanna was having a suicidal crisis inside the house for six hours. shoot hoops. And he's shooting hoops. And talking about his faith Talk about your fan. I'm not I'm not saying it with that county tone in general. Is that the first time we've ever said that word on our podcast? No I'm saying it, I'm saying keep it. I'm saying use it all the time. I'm saying it with that counti tone because fuck this guy It's a stupid and he's gonna to hide behind his quote faith, which I don't think he has. I'm sorry. this is not the appropriate moment, but merch if I've ever seen it. I mean, you know what I mean? Sometimes you need to use it That county to. I want that on a t shirt tomorrow. Like I'm not being like, o, there're faith, peopleeople with faith That's not my I' faith I don't go to church, but I'm a person of fa. This guy's not a person of faith and he's gonna to hide behind that Yes much one hundred percent. So Patricia is Joanna and Joe's mother. Nobody called her that night. Like that tells you everything you need to know. She's no idea what's going on. The cops don't call. I'm sure the husband was like, I'll handle it. Like yeah. Joanna's family doesn't know what's going on. The next day, a deacon from the quote church went to see her and tells her that her daughter, Joanna is dead, which is unbelievable to me Piece of shit you have to be to not call the mom. We're gonna to learn later the family fucking hates this guy. of course they do. But like I think that like that right there is such an indication of like what a fucking low life and bad person like it just And he kn everything you need to know about. He knew that the family hated him because Joe, the brother first The gut punch I dropped to my knee And then almost instantly, One thought, O name What did he do to her Lewis I knew. I knew he did it. The minute he learned about this, he was like, oh, he did it. I know He finally fucking killed my sister. And Patricia, the mother says the same thing, like what did he do? Like everyone and I'm sure I think he was just trying to delay the piece of shit pastor air quotes pastor, like delay the inevitable. Or like let them know like make it so that when they find out that she's dead that she's been dead for twenty four hours and they didn't just to make their suffering workse. And there can't be an investigation. You make sure it's a quote suicide clear the crime scene so that there isn't a crime scene and now when the family throws a fit, they look crazy and no investigation can even happen. Because the family would have told the cops everything that we're gonna to learn about this guy in a minute, and that might have led them to preserve the crime scene, which was not doneight. Girl, Chime is back and as you all know by now, Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee free banking. This is fee free banking built for you Yeah, they're not like traditional old banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees. rememember those? Yeah. And even better, they have thousands of fee free ATM's, no more like seven dollars charges. 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It only takes a few minutes to sign up, famam Chime is Fintch, not a bank banking services for my Pay andime card provided by Chime bank partners. optional product andvices may have fees charges stated anual percentage yield and cash for Chimeime only, minimum balance required checking account ranking based on a JP Power survey pubished october twenty five. For information on AP rates,ay,pot me and travel perks, go to Chime com slash disclosures. So a few weeks later, the cops a few weeks later, I know, The cops finally show Patricia the mother what they are calling a suicide note and she laughs in their faces. She goes, this isn't a suicide note. This is a good biden note. Joanna was leaving him, the open suitcase to take care of the dogs. Yeah. She was leaving and she tried to leave them many times before, which like we know how this fucking story goes. And we learn that there was a history of abuse that started soon after they started dating in High school At twenty, Joanna documented Mark choking her and got a restraining order against him Even so, Joanna returned to him. At twenty one, after she reported that Mark grabbed my neck and twisted it. Joanna got another restraining order ote, he grabbed my neck and twisted it twenty two years old, Joanna is hospitalized with a sprained neck so this guy's drug of choice Yeah is fucking strangling her and choking her. And the guy was convicted on a domestic violence charge and sentenced to thirty six months. Again, he's a pastor. I know. And then she returns to the relationship and her mom, Patricia tells us that he like while he's in prison, he begs her to come and visit her. She goes And like and according to the mom like falls right back into it. You know, And we were talking about this off mic. We learned that this guy is a pastor of a Baptist church. I wish we got more because we're gonna meet other parishioners here who L like one guy says eventually like this was this was a cult. It is. And I just needed more of that because I understand what I say by I understand is I mean it makes sense to me because we've covered so many cults. I understand the pull and the magnetism of a cult and how you can sort of your personality can completely change when you enter that sort of group think situation.. But like it just like my God Joanna has like restraining order after restraining order, She's in the hospital, he's in prison and she keeps going back. and its just my heart breaks for her, my heart breaks for the family. and I wish we had a little bit more of an understanding of how she got into the mindset to keep going back after all these times. Be' he's definitely a cult. He's a complete controlling maniac. Y At twenty five years old, they get married seemingly right when he gets out. And she doesn't tell anybody. Nobody in her family knows. I mean, we see pictures of her in her wedding day, she's smiling a Even in that wedding photo that they show, she's smiling, he's like dragging her through the crowd. Yeah. She's property to him. one hundred percent. And can I just say to the parents hearsay? I had to tell my husband And we just held each other and sobbed because we knew now it would be that much harder to help her and get her out And you said you feared for your daughter, but did you ever think he would be capable telling her Absolutely. It was going to be exponentially more difficult to get her out of this relationship. It's an incredibly painful to be in as someone watching someomeone you care about go through something like this. I think about you all the time because you've talked about how like you were in a not great relationship and like your parents knew about it. parents had intervention for me. Did they really?? My dad called it emotional vandalism is like was one of the phrases he used that stuck with me forever. How long did you stay in the relationship after that Probably like a year. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because like what do you do as a parent? I mean, like obviously you can't abandon you would never abandon your child. to be clear, this was not a violent situation. wantan to make that. Yeah. Very, very clear. I'm not comparing it anyway. Because my problem is I'd probably kill the guy. Like if the guy choked my daughter three times, I don't know what I would do if she kept going back to him. I't know that would do either. I know. Oh my God, I know, I know I also don't know like how easy like I always say it's very easy for us to say that in our cushy little comfy chairs. I don't know. like I don't know. But I think also too, what I was going to say was that like You don't want to lose her completely. No. And like you don't want to be like too forceful about it. Like it's sort of, I think it gets to the point where it's like as long as we have her in our lives a little bit, maybe we can help her in some way. like maybe we can get to that point. So like gets to that point where you eventually might have to say like, I can't be around. That's like a place I don't think anyone wants to No. And I think that women like Joanna are the prime examples of this can happen to anybody. Like I feel like every time we cover one of these like amazing, strong women, it reminds me that like this Joanna never would have thought she would have been a woman who would have been in an abusive relationship and stayed and then gone back. And if it happened to her, it could happen to anybody.. And I will say too One of the tools that we get later, obviously, I'll say I know you hate it when I give things early so I won't. But we get a statistic at the end here and I think that like numbers and statistics do matter, especially the one that we get later, that I think when you can give that kind of information to somebody, even if they don't accept it in the moment, it is the thing that will stick in their mind. I sure hope so. Yeah So the cops called this a suicide right away because the husband said so. No homicide investigators were called to the house The bedroom was not treated as a crime scene, no fingerprints taken. No DNA tested and no phones collected After his statement, Mark Lewis was released It's so annoying that that's not a federal thing. L we did it in Phil Specter. I know the timeline is weird, bonus listeners, but we just covered it not too long ago. where like the guys in LA were like, o, it's always considered a homicide until it's not. Every time that there is a we are told in that documentary that every time there's a death in a house, it is considered a suspicious death. So investigators are sent and a crime scene is preserved. R Like you're saying, how on earth is that not a federal law? And I really don't want to hear any excuses about why that's not the case. Just fix it. I know. I don't really care what the reasoning is like why like, oh because right now, all I'm hearing is because the husband said so. Right? Because like I think that it wouldn't take that long to figure out that she either had a history of like mental illness or depression or had attempted suicide before Or, you know, like that the husband had been abusive or that like it wouldn't take that much investigating to get that colonel to either like clear the guy or not. Well the other thing to that point, another thing that needs to change is that their entire history of abuse was, quote, not available to the deputy in the field because all the documents were over fifteen years old So that's another thing that has to change. So does that mean that like it gets cleared from the record at some point? I mean, I think there's a statute of limitations about like I don't know why it wouldn't be clear. I don't understand in this situation. They don't explain that. They just say that the history was not available to the deputy in the field. To me that feels like they didn't run the guy's name. You know what I mean? It feels like they had him in the back of the car and in theirre handcuffs for five minutes, ask him a couple of questions. Right. Oh yeah, she's crazy. L we knew she was going to do something like this. They I just wonder if they had run his name the would the orders of protection and his fucking thirty six months in prison have come up gonna guess my opinion, my guess. No, nothing would have changed. is like even his prison time. U that I don't No. It seems like an easy problem to solve. You know what I mean? Yeah, It really does. I mean, so the autopsy says the next day, an external autopsy determined the ligature marks on Joanna's neck were consistent with suicide A month later, when the toxicology report came back clean, the case is closed The talk screen is clean, case closed. So this is the beginning of what is described as a war between Joanna's family and the shheriff's department. because this happened in twenty eleven. it is now twenty twenty six. We're talking about this war. So the point is like, he of course he didn't want the family to get a phone call right away because they were going to raise fucking hell for Joanna. Yes. And he knew that. Yes. And in the last year of her life, you know, we learned that a year before The death She tried to get out. She called her parents, said I'm leaving, and then within two weeks she goes back. And once again, this is where I just wish We had more on the church because the cult. The cult cult. I mean, they call it a Baptist church, but like but other people call it a cult. I mean it clearly is. It is. It very clearly is. Yeah. And like she had tried to leave many, many times before and most recently it was a month before her murder and her family was like literally, truly begging her not to go back. Sing if the mom says, if you're going back, I'm going to drive you there. The courage that that not the courage, the fortitude that that mother must have had to do that. And she says, if you go back, I'm afraid I'll never see you again. could I could fall on the ground and sob it. Yeah, because that's exactly what happened. Yeah. And Not to speak for Patricia, the mother, but I wonder if you drive them back so that they know you can always call them again. Yeah to not say like, look, I love you. I'm driving you here. You can call me anytime. I will turn this fucking car around literally. I will pull over I will do it. I will back for you. We were talking about this before we started. like we were saying like as a sibling because you know, this is like Joe's story about his sister He alludes at one point to like the last conversation they had not going great. they were probably fighting about him, this other guy. Yeah. So I get it as a sibling if you're just like, I'm going to show you that I love you by pulling back and not supporting this. But as a parent, I can see myself doing that. Like I'm going to spend every last second with you that I possibly can when you're not with him. evenven if that means driving you back to him and I get you for one more hour to try to talk some sense into you and not make it like like to remind Joe the Joannes of the world that like, I'm a safe space where you don't have to fight about it every time, but like if you want to talk to me about it, you can. That's a very, very hard place to be. It's just so hard to argue with joking You know, repeatedly the black guy. 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When taken daily, it's just two capsules a day, Euro delivers noticeable benefits within eight weeks and a lot of people see results much sooner than that. Wow. Yeah. So fam, take proactive care of your health and head to oositive dot com slash tCO or enter TCO at check out for twenty five percent off your first purchase. That's Os I IV dot com slash TCO for twenty five percent off. Do it. We're staying healthy So let's talk about someone who's awesome and that's Joanna. Yeah. She was warm, she was compassionate, life of the party. She like an incredible big sister to Joe. She loved Joe. She loves being a sister. The mom says that she thought that Joe was her gift. And Joe says that like he would try to be like in charge sometimes and she was absolutely not having it. No. People would call the house to talk to him and she would give them like the third degree before she would let them get on the phone with him obsessed. Real big sister. Because sometimes siblings don't like each other. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I love that she was like loved him. He loved her, so protective of him. I'm obsessed. They each had, it seemed like, I don't know if this is the right word, but like roles that they both like loved having. Yeah really were into. So Joe tells us like, you know, it's always the way. At first everything was fine with this guy then You know, it wasn't. Yeah, we learned that Mark Lewis is the son of a local preacher. He was Joanna's first boyfriend. and that for the first six to eight months of their relationship, like things seemed good. And like when the abuse started, Joe, the brother, confronted Mark more than once he says. Bysically. And what would happen is though, is that it would backfire and the piece of shit would take it out on Joanna, so then Joes like So like you don't want to make it any worse for your sister, but as Joe, you can't help but want to kick the shit out of this guy. So like what do you do? Sometimes I just feel like I'm living in another on another planet where I'm like, your brother is going is beating up the guy that's beating you up and then he's turning around and beating you up for getting beat up by the brother for beating you up like you can't see you're in it I guess. You just can't because now she feels trapped and now she feels like, well, Joe is going be mad at me and everyone's mad at me and he's telling her everyone's mad at her. And like you it's a very lonely isolating place. Yeah. And Joe is like after physically going after him, him then taking it out on her had to back off a little bit from my sister I had been screaming at her for so long Two years straight I hate this guy, leave this sky. please stop. I thought I'm going to lose her for good. So I'm just gonna to listen I'm gonna push her away. Like ye, I'm angry I have a right to be angry, but this anger is not helping Joanna. No, anyway. And it's not helping Joe and Joanna either. And because he decided to stop yelling at her and just listen, he says, then I got the deep dark secrets that she wasn't even telling my parents. Right. Like it was really bad in there. Like injuries, he would see the scars, he would see the wounds. And meanwhile, while he's doing this, Mark is working his way up in the church C telling everyone how to get into heaven, which actually makes my stomach turn. I piece of shit is telling everyone how to live and like how to get into heaven, fuck off. And like we learned that he was the son of a pastor, so I'm assuming it's his dad's church. Cult runs in the family, I guess. Yeah. And like Patricia, the mother says, you know, God put it down, pull over, pull over. What is so crazy about this case which I know it happens all the time, but we haven't talked about it in this way on this show maybe in a while or ever. is that like everyone was so aware of the abuse and everyone talked about it with each other with Mark and Mark would talk about it with the mom. like the abuser was like talking about the abuse with Johanna's mother, which is which I know is not rare, but like to hear it spoken about this way kind of is publicly. It was just on the table. And she goes to him after the wedding and says, like after she finds out that they got married behind the family's back, and I said to him, how do I know in this moment that you will never lay a hand on her again And I'll never forget Pase. kind of sneered Half smile And he looked at me and he said When she's a better woman and a better Christian, you won't have to worry about that When she's a better woman and a better Christian, you won't have to worry about that. Like the people who not only do this, but do this and then hide behind religion make me fucking crazy. Like he's trying to beat the religion into her. It's so cruel. It's so sick. he's also a fucking racist Oh my God Because Joanna and Joe are half black. theirir dad is black. And so he was telling Joanna that she needs to be saved from being black, specifically her hair. Oh my Talking to a black woman about her hair and quote, the way you look. What the actual So it makes sense why Joe is like, you have to hold me back from this motherfuck Obviously, for that and many reasons, but when you hear that part he was abusing her partly because she was black is absolutely vile disgusting and he's the guy screaming at you, how to get into heaven. I mean, fuck him. This last time I'm gonna say it, I just wish we knew more about how he got into her psych. She should beaten to death. Yeahes, slowly. Yes by me, mayaybe Are we doing thing where you're in the age with the bear an. totally. Only if the bears, only if when you're this evil, it doesn't like upset the bear's stomach. because I feel like when you're that evil and vile. I don't think bears care. I think they'll eat people in any way they can. great. You know what I mean I'm choosing the bear once again to do my dir dirty work for me. Yeah, ye yeah. This is the kind of capital punishment I can live with. Yeah This guy Jacob is like a deacon at the church. So I'm like, how culpable are you, Jake? He's here now at least to say I look up to him. He was a mentor only to find out that I was a pawn In hindsight, Jacob says Pastor Lewis had too much control over him I couldn't go to my mom and dad's house without asking Mark permission Brain wasash. Jacob, a grown ass man couldn't visit his own parents without Mark's permission. I mean fucking losers. I'm sorry. I know. But can I go visit my parents? Like if some guy' gonna screaming you yes or no? like's going on. It's one of those things where forty eight hours isn't like an HBO cult documentary, but I kind of need it to be. I need it to be too. I need to know more about the and how he got you in and what he promised you and what he said would happen if you left? L I need that part of it because you're right, it does just make all these people look crazy. and I'm sure they aren't. I know. and I was like you knowad because there's so many losers here and maybe no, Jacob isn't one of them. but like I get it. L we're look, we're dealing with like the brutal murder and like this guy is I don't want to tell you the end, but he's gonna to get away with it. It's like, I don't know if the I know it's the isolation and I know that's part of it. Like you can't see your parents and you can't see people who love you or who aren't in the church cult, whatever. Like I get like he needs to keep tabs on who's visiting who. Fty eight hours is making us too much workout We only have this knowledge because we've done ninety thousand cult documentaries right now. It does Joanna a disservice because she is such an amazing person and clearly cult shit worked on her, which I don't blame her. I always say it would probably work on me too. And so I just want that part of it because that part of it is just missing. Well, let's talk to Dararyl because Darl says it was totally a cult. Mark was the leader. and he wants like his flowers for catching on real quick, Darl, and he bails. But a fun fact about Darl, Darl Snedker was a deputy in the Solano County Sheriff's Department and a member of the church at the time of Joanna's death. ut in theeriff's department at the time of Joanna's murder, but not involved in the case. And I'm like, right, but did you know about it? Did you use your words, Darl? tell people about the abuse and the brainwashing? becauseuse we don'tar about that. so I'm gonna guess you didn't. It seems like you didn't, but he did apparently quickly lose faith in the church and the pastor and leave. Well I care more about Wh was helping Joanna? Yeah, that's what I care about. When you are both in the cult and and a fucking cop. Yeah. And Joanna was murdered like I I just care more about Joanna here. The world is so much about not disrupting the status quo Yeah. Was it the Andrea Yates case where like the little kids were like street preaching with that guy who was just in like no one's helping this like little kid who looks crazy and they're surrounded by these crazy people. And also Elizabeth Smart. Yes. Who was on the masked singer, by the way? Somebody was I think it was say My friend Matt Koplick sent me a TikTok that was like I've never watched the mask singer, but there's like a person on the stage in a full con. The show smells like a fever drream. It it feels like. Take it off. And they take it off. I was expecting it to be like ch to take it off at Elizabeth Smart. They're talking about theas. I don't know if they're chaning takeake it off, but they take it off and it's Elizabeth Smart and I scream. Oh my God. It was absolutely I'm guessing it was the mass singer. I don't know for sure that it was. I'm sure everybody listening to this knows and they're screaming at their phones. But I was like but she looked thrilled to be there.. And you know herouse. Let her hopif. Let her I hope that she like sang a song and brought the goddamn house down. If she had a good time, that's all I can.. And like she was wearing this crazy costume and when they hon I don't know anything about it. so I know I'm just like It's a weird show, man. I hope she loved it. So I hope she did too. I would totally buy her album today. Again, she's happy, I'm happy. me too Girl, Our Places back, this is all about having that like gorgeous cookware that also doesn't have any of those horrible forever chemicals. 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If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back. That's oLl IE dot com slash TCO and enter code TCO to get seventy percent off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. Can you imagine being the person getting all the dog pictures Come on On the other side of that app? Yeah, we should talk about that. I think I found a new career Here are some weird things about the night of Joanna's death. Why didn't Mark cut Joanna down or try to administer CPR And Joe found it particularly hard to believe Lewis was actually playing basketball for six straight hours. you never When inside to use a restroom, get a glass of water, playing basketball for this obscene amount of time is absurd to me He says it's an obscene amount of time. This is absd. And I agree. It's a stupid it's a bad lie. It's a bad lie. And like how did the like the cops close this case in twenty eight minutes And they're like, wow, sixix hours you say, Wow. Because if it was a suicide, which it absolutely was not. She was inside having a suicidal crisis.. And like somebody's gonna say nobody went to the bathroom. Nobody like had to go and get a glass of water for playing basketball for six hours. Younder many how much more crossover there is between the cult and the cops Was it just Darl? Beause it's fucking weird. Yeah ask a single question. Nhing about this is suspicious to you. I know. But it does not surprise me, mostly ' we've seen it before so recently sure they don't have to I mean it's their own kind of cult, I guess. Yeah. But honestly that like you can just show up at like there's a dead person. The spouse says it was suicide and you're just like, okay Yeah You know, like not a single question. So it's twenty fourteen. This happened. Janna's murder happened in twenty eleven. So now it's like three years later. The family is super frustrated. Nobody's listening to them and because this fucking train is never late. Pastor Mark Lewis had been arrested accused of violence against another woman. Mark is arrested for domestic violence against another woman. Of course he is. Yeah, we go back to the fall of twenty eleven when Joanna died. and remember how like he didn't call her family? Yeah. He did call a woman named Sarah Nottingham and she's here Yeah. And she's awesome. She was like a friend of his from the church the Yeah And Sarah is here to say that he asked me if I heard what was happening. He was crying He was her pastor and like that night forward, he starts leaning on her for support and of course, like it develops into a relationship. The grooming started after he killed his wife. Yeah. That's what is happening. If we're going to call it what it is, he started grooming Sara the minute He murdered his wife. Yeah. And she says like once again, we hear this all the time. att first a relationship was great. She's like with the head pastor of the call, like how good for her. But then another side emerges. She calls it extreme manipulation, gaslighting, verbal abuse. She says in the beginning there was some physical abuse, like a shove or a push. and then it gets to me like more and more. Like this is a guy like you were saying earlier whose method of controlling his women is through strangling. Right. So and he's racist He's a fucking pedophile. And then she says she discovered that Mark Lewis had been sending inappropriate text messages to an underage girl You know, I'm just like I've had enough I would just keep telling them, you know, this is It's over, we're done Mark grabbed her, she says, and tightly wrapped his arms around her She catches this piece of shit basically sexting an underage girl or like, you know, abusing an underage girl via text. Yeah. He's a pastor. He's a pastor. He's screaming at you. You can't see your parents and he's telling you what to do to fucking get into heaven and he's going to try to beat the blackness out of Joeanna. He is such a piece of shit. This guy. Joe, like I' I'm so on Jo. I would have been I know. I would have been like, Joe, do you need like I would have been like Rocky's coach. I I know I know It bush out of this guy. As to death. That guy is running around the woods on Fiji looking for idols He's running around. he's pre's not home yet.'s pre The editing No when you go on sururvivor, if you get voted off, you can't leave until everyone's like you can'tave until like months and months later. So they send you, I can't remember it's calleda,a who. Yeah I' having to answer all the quest. Not even playing the game, but you can't be in a hotel. You go to a hotel, but like they take you off the island and you go but you're sequestered. Okay you can't find No one can see. I'm not playing the game. I'm not also sleeping on a fucking No, no, no, they get you off the island and they put you at a hotel, but but you like it's like or a house, like somewhere else on Fiji or whatever. And then like one at a time, like other people who get voted off come to the house. And then you just talk shit. I don't know why they haven't made that a reality show. I would totally watchk. Yeah. Why is that not like the after show? BeCacause they' making a million seasons of sururvivor every year. there's enough to watch. I know But like right now, Joe is running through the woods of Fija looking for idols. That's all I' say. I know it'si. Also, I love Natalie Morales in this because in her reporting, she calls him a pastor as many times as possible to really hit the point home. Yeah. What a fucking nightmare he is. Yes. So Sarah's out. She moves in with her parents, with her two kids, by the way. Yeah. Mark, the piece of shit is threatening her on a regular basis. He's physically assaulting her. He's like smashing her windshield The brazenness of it, like there are other people who can see you, Mark. L your parents are here. like every that's the thing. L every he's totally cool with everybody knowing what he's doing. We just did this on Patreon with Don't Date Brandon. Like he's like chasing these people down the highway. Remember that? L Don't Date Brandon and like making the pull over in broad daylight, violating the restraining orders, trying to kiss them These men are crazy. Well then Natalie Morales tells us, quote, Sarah was granted an order of protection against him, but it did not stop what happened next. Wonderful, pererfect. january ninth, twenty fourteen three AM. She's living with her parents and her two kids. And I woke up to our fire alarm going off And there was smoke filling the hallway and I checked on my kids. A Molotov cocktail had crashed through her parents' bedroom window. A Molov cocktail a lit Malolov cocktail threw, smashed the window, and now the house is on. Her parents window. So every everyone is okay. They acted quickly. They put fire out themselves. Y dad throws on the bathroub and runs into the streets to try to find this piece of shit. I want this guy. So minutes later, the cops pull over a U haul van and arrest the driver and two passengers and all three of them confessed it's two seconds fl. they're like them Por hired us Mark did it He did it. Like these people were hired by this guy pastor. Unbelievable screaming you about how to live your life and how you're gonna get things happen. And then we see Mark being questioned by local reporters on local TV says, quote, I never gave them money to do anything bad That's a weird way of like saying, what are you talking about? I had nothing to do with. I'm innocent. I didn't do this. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's Mark, You're bad at this. And also he probably didn't pay them. He probably just said, like Jesus told me that you have to take this monolstoft cocktail and throw through this. Were they in the cs too? There's no way they weren't. So he's arrested. He's charged with arson, conspiracy, and stalking. So in january twenty fifteen, he's on trial for what he did to Sarah and her family, which is great, but Joanne's family's like, hi Right We would like some justice too And so day three of the trial, he changes his plea from not guilty to no contest. So that means that he won't dispute the charges against him, but he also would't acknowledge guilt. And I'm like, of course he's not going to acknowledge guil. And he's senced to eight years in prison for all of this. So Joanna's family seizes the moment.. They're like, we have all of this proof, the conviction, the history of abuse with multiple women. we have the media pressure. They know that it's now or never, this is the time to go to the cops and like force them to open Joanna's case. This is a great idea. Yeah. And so they do. my utter shock, by the way. Well, but the problem is The police have doubled down so many times that like they did nothing wrong, any relevant information about past abuses. They've doubled down that they did everything right that even like it feels like reopening the investigation is just to say that they did. We learn about this guy, Andrew Alvarado. He was the guy that was playing basketball outside with the quote pastor. He was one that called the cop He was the one that called nine hundred and eleven and then handed the phone to the guy. This time, investigators learned a new detail I left to go dp off, I guess I had to go eat dinner or whatever. He had actually left the church grounds during those six hours to drive the teenagers home, he says, and wasn't sure what the pastor was doing while he was gone. So there's all of this time that is completely unaccounted for. Like this guy's alibi is out the window Yeah And he's like, I actually didn't know what he was doing in the time I was gone. His alibi went alibi. I fucking fuck you.. Thanks for nothing, Andrew Alibi bye. Piece out, you piece of shit. Andre I don't like you we. don't think you're off the hook, Andrew. No. So the issue is that Antly the physical evidence looks like a suicide. That is the issue that the family keeps running into and the cops can kind of hang their hat on. well. The cop keeps coming back. The guy who's here from the sherheriff's office to speak on their behalf keeps saying, no matter what, there was no evidence on the body that indicated another person was involved in her death. How do you know that? Like we were told that they did not send investigators to the scene And so they're only they're only as I'm sorry to say it this way, like Joanna's body is the only evidence. Yeah. So they they say that nothing looks like a suicide the first time around. and now that they've reopened the case, they have this new doctor who also says that there's no evidence that it is not a suicide. Yeah. So the case is closed again until for whatever reason in twenty fifteen The Countyistrict atttorneysice decides to do some DNA testing. I'm like, can we get some like details about how you did this? I. There are a lot of cases that need this. They just like woke up one day and decided to test the evidence. Yeah. Hello. This smells of Matt Murphy to me. but he works in Orange County. He had something to do with this. I hope so. Anyway, they test the sash from the rope Joanna's DNA is on it, as well as an unknown mallees that's not shitty husband Mark. No, here's the thing. they put it in codus, which is like the national database for DNA. They say it got no hits That was the last, that's all they did. Can somebody please go swab those fuckers who threw the Montov cocktail through the window? sounds like the henchmen for the pastor. And the DNA has never been identified to this day. I'm like at the very least, go swab those guys. 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He was hired by the shheriff's deepartment to look at the case. He knows Joanna is murdered. He is sure that Joanna was murdered and says he can prove it Every injury will tell you a story. if you take the time to analyze it Every injury will tell you a story if you take the time to analyze it. This guy we're told he knows his shit. He's done thousands of autopsies. he's worked all over the country. He's been called as an expert witness, including against Derek Chauin, who murdered George Floyd. Yes. Did you know that Derek Chauvin was also found guilty of like some pretty hefty tax evasion charges? No. Yeah, sureure beat's like a counterfeit twenty dollarars bill, right, Derek? Is he in prison? Yes Fuck that guy. Yeah. So he analyzes the information and he finds something new. He says that there was a braided nylon marine rope three feet away from Joanna. And we see it, because at least thank God, they photographed the crime scene. Like didn't they didn't investigate the crime scene. photographed it. And And the rope, he says is the only thing that could have made the marks on Joanna's neck and I'm like Wait a second. are you telling me means is if I'm understanding this exactly is that the marks on Joanna's neck are consistent with a suicide, yet they are also inconsistent with the way she supposedly did it. But on top of that Multiple autopsies didn't catch that discrepancy Y what they're telling us, right? Yes. And it's it's so he says she was dead the bathrobe when the bathrobe sash was applied to her neck. Joanna's scene was staged She was killed with a rope. and then to make it look like a suicide, She was hung up by the bathrobe ash she was already dead She died. and then to stage the crime scene, he hung her from the tie of the bathroom. So two different doctors who did two different autopsies. didn't notice that the marks on Joanna's neck that caused her suicide, so to speak, are not consistent with the terry cloth robe that she used to do it. Do you see what I'm saying? I do. and unfortunately, that's going to be the thing that's going to come back to bite us because we're with this guy, Dr. Smock and he sounds amazing because what he does like this reenactment of the exact same kind of rope on these mannequins. and he uses this red paint. And what he does is that he dips the rope in this red paint, then puts it around the neck of a mannequin And you can see the marks that the rope would have made because it's like the, you know, how the rope was braided or whatever. Yeah. And then we see a picture of the autopsy photo of her neck, which we are told it was used with the family's permission, which Let to slow down on that because we get it's a very, very, very small piece of an autopsy photo. Yeah. and it's zoomed in on just the small part we need to see. and everything else is blurred out. and we are told by Natalie Morales that the family said that was okay. I would like more of this. I know, I love that. We don't always need to see As much of photos as we are often shown. I would say we should probably see far less. F less. And like I just appreciate the way giving us the visual that is so because this is such a big deal. It's so important to the face, but showing it in a way that makes sense for the storytelling and not like gross and disturbing and disrespectful. Yeah, I hate to say it, this evidence isn't super convincing to me. I have no doubt that he killed her. I just don't know that this is the evidence What he' say what doror Smak, who I think is very smart and I like him a lot. and he's like he is determined not just to help Joanna, but like other victims. and we'll learn more about that in a minute But he's showing us that like he wraps the rope around the neck of the mannequin and then we it zooms in on the autopsy photo and we're told that they look exactly alike. I don't really know I couldn't really see the autopsy photo well enough to really see that. But that's not even necessary. I think the awful cop that we hate makes a kind of a good point later, which I'll just say here. The shheriff's office took issue with the fact that doctor Smock is not a forensic pathologist Paris also took issue with SmOock's methods This is not someone who has their body weight hanging. this is simply draped over a mannequin. That is not how she was killed Joanna was found hanging with like her full body weight and like this was just sort of like loosely draped around. I don't love this evidence. Okay. But I don't think we need this evidence. I think that like the circumstantial evidence or the fact that he's choked her six fucking times Yeah. his history of violence and his complete disregard for human life is enough for me. Another thing that's crazy with doctor Smock is that he signed an NDA. so he has this evidence, but he can't speak to the family directly. He can only speak to the lieutenant and like trust that he's gonna tell the family. Yeah, and he's eventually let out of that NDA because his findings are overruled. So that's how he's able to talk to us now Yeah So we meet Casey Gwyen and Gail Strach. They are founders of Alliance for Hope International, which is an advocacy group for survivors of domestic violence and their families. I spend a lot of time in their websites Today, I donated to it. You should. I love that Awesome. Can I just pause for one second? Yeah. The reason I'm saying that that evidence isn't really super strong to me is because I couldn't see the autopsy photo they showed us well enough to really understand what he was saying. I saw the pattern pretty clearly. I guess maybe it would' have been helpful if he was like, this is what a terry clloth robe would have looked like if we saw those thing zoom in for comparison, I guess, but when I saw that I was kind of like, oh, My thing is I would like that evidence presented as like this is what could have happened. Yeah. Not like this is what definitely did happen. because I think that that's just more circumstantial evidence to throw on the pile. Well, because the reason they're hanging their hat on the autopsy for being like, we can't do anything about this. And so I think that's why doror Smock is relying on that like saying like, no, no, no, like you should look at this. What we're going to learn here from Casey and Gale, I think is even more important because I think we're like what we're reminded of here, what we learn in Ellen Greenberg and we've seen in other cases is once the cops show up on the scene and the crime scene is not preserved, we're fucked. We'll never be able to prove it. Right. So Casey calls this a hidden homicide. Yeah. And he says, domestic violence homicides are the number one staged murders in America. Let that sink in for a second because we're about to give you some numbers that are gonna to block. I was say this is not this is like one of many truth bombs we get from them If then so I'm like, that's huge Yeah. That's huge to know. What he then follows it up with? he says The fact is that if you strangle a woman one time in an intimate relationship, she's seven hundred fifty percent more likely to be killed by you. You are seven hundred and fifty percent more likely to be killed by this person that you're going back to right now. Yeah. And you know, I got a lot of DM's about our coverage of Don't Day Brandon. People wanted were saying that like, well, it's not just the I came pretty hard for the cops because I thought that was egregious, like how they treated these women. I think that's a pretty fair take. people People wanted me to know that like I can't have it both ways. like sometimes you know, I don't believe in the death penalty because of like evidence and the law and all that stuff. And so people wanted me to know that like, well, like the cops are only acting on what the law says. Let me explain my issues with this. and this will be outdated, because this is one of our bonus episodes. I'm sure'll. see you in the summer fan. I'm sure'll say ten million times before that. The point is that it's the entire system and that it trickles down so that the cops can act like this because the system is so maddening because the data overwhelmingly says what it says. And the system is built to ignore it. Yeah. And we're about to learn from a cop for the one millionth time on this podcast, like we're about to see it in action.. So when the data says that women are seven hundred fifty percent more likely to be killed by a man that's hit her before There's no systems in place. Right. Like the data says one thing and the system acts another. Y. And that is what is so fucking frustrating from top. to bottom and it's all affected. So ye like that is why that is what my point of view is. And what was the counterpoint? What were people saying is wrong with that? The counterpoint is like, well, it's not just cop, like laws need to change too. And I'm like, I get that But like we all need to work together because we're about like we're about to see my point in action right now because we meet Captain Harris. He reviewed the case with forty eight hours, and he's here to talk shit about doror Smock becausecause he's like. And so what dor. Smock called the murder weapon was never examined But where is the rope? I don't have the rope I't know We also don't have every electrical cord that was there. We didn't go through the garage to look for absolutely everything Dumb girl Like we don't have it. Right. And we also don't have every other thing that was in the house, you fucking idiot. Like that's how he's talking about. No he's very defensive and he's saying that the cops didn't have access to the information about this guy's like violent past when they when they came that night to find the body. And if they had, he says, and I quote, it would have been a very different investigation But But before that, she says, was the history of domestic violence missed? And this asshole says no. He goes, I don't think it was missed. And he says, even if we knew, nothing would have changed. But that's a contradictory statement. How can you saying it wasn't missed, but you're acknowledging that you didn't see it? And his attitude gets worse because he says this is a direct quote creating a hypothetical situation that Marark murdered her. There is no evidence to support that. The way he says murdered in this mocking tone is fucking unbelievable. Yeah. And like her name is Joanna, by the way, you fucking prick. Yeah. Like don't like like like this hypothet it's not that hypothetical. He was in prison for domestic violence. And I'm like, hey shheriff's office This guy is the best he got. I know. All the good apples busy that day. they couldn't sit down for camera. like I know, what are we doing here? This is who's representing you? And then and then he says if we had known about the history of violence, this would have been a very different investigation. So now Morales is like, great. So is the case still ongoing? No, it's closed You could reopen the case at any moment, sir. Right. You have the information now Yeah. like be the I know that he's talking like his responses and Natalie Morll isn't giving him which I think he deserves. She's being incredibly professional and even handed she's just asking him questions. I know He is such a smug little brat. And my thing too is just the can you just acknowledge that maybe you could have handled this different. Maybe you don' mayaybe you don't close a case after twenty eight minutes. Right? Like Jna. Died tragically no matter what, you asshole. You just like talk about her like she's a person? We're back with Gail and Casey. Gail and Casey's experience with Joanna's case. Led them to create a checklist of ten factors to be considered by law enforcement They had begun drafting a new law A law that included the red flags that could signal a homicide We've never had a case with all ten that wasn't a homicide Joanna Hunter had all ten factors. Joanna Hunter had all ten and I'm gonna to read them to you. One, victim dies prematurely or unexpectedly. twow appears to be a suicide or accident scene. Three, one partner wanted to end the relationship. four prior history of domestic violence or coercive control, which I think is perfect warning. Y. F victim found dead in home or place of residence, six victim found by or previous partner. seeven, prior history of strangulation slash suffocation by partner, including prior relationships eightight Pner is the last to see victim alive. nine Partner has control of the crime scene before the police arrive and ten crime scene is altered in some way. She had all of them. Wow. And Casey and Gail say we've never had a case with all ten that wasn't a homicide. How was the crime scene altered? Was it by like him cutting her down? Did he cut her down? No, I think he didn't try.atever I mean, they said she had all ten they Oh, no, I'm not questioning you. I' curious. Yeahah. 'ause I'm also doing the checklist for Ellen Greenberg. I'm like obsessed with thaty. I know. And I don't know that she has all ten of those, but she's got at least eight of them saying you have to have all ten. But they do say we've never seen a case where All ten exists and it wasn't a homic. Exactly. So this piece of shit, pastor, Mark Lewis has not been charged with any crime relating to the death of Joanna After serving five years for the firebombing of Sarah Nottingham's house He was released on parole And he's released on parole after five years for firebombing Sarah and her family. So he walks among us. By the way, the number of times they said firebombing. That' insane. And that's exactly what he did. Yeah. So he lives in Arizona. He's fucking married. I know At first, I was like, wow, I really hope she sees this and gets out of here. and then I see the look she shoots Natalie Moraales. Now wait a second. because forty eight hours say, We tried to reach him repeatedly. We received no response. And then quote, we go to a commercial, we come back ote After suiting up with hidden cameras, we decided to go in person. Natalie Morales is in Arizona Youess I have to make a surprise visit. Oh my God, I was screaming. She goes up to the house. was very nice to the dogs by the way. I was gonna say the dogs are barking their heads.ery nice. Yes, thoseose dogs are what they're saying in dog is save us. Yeah. Get us out of here. Like they want out of there. Very happy homes. donon't damn me and say otherwise. So we see Natalie Morala is questioning this piece of shit who's just standing in the front yard. She's basically like, people just, we want to hear your side of the story, sir. We want to hear what you have anything to say because we see his wife standing right beside him. Yeah His father in law is in the garage because Mark storms out into the house. Natalie turns to the father in law. I don't know how she knows it's the father in law, but she turns to him. He's in the garage and she goes up to him and she says He does not turn and run away. This man stays to like look at Natalie Morales and she's saying to him, Do you have any concerns for your daughter, Given's Mark's history with domestic violence? And this guy is hemming and haawing and I'm like, he wants to talk to her. He says I know the whole story. Yes. I know the whole story. Did you know his late wife, Joanna Hunter? Yes, I did Did you go to the church You did Okay I know this is a difficult this is a difficult situation. we just we want to make think this is really unnecessary. I know the whole story. He knew Joanna ' he was in the churchash Cult. and he quote, feels for Joanna's family, but this is all very unnecessary. There's nothing to say, it's over. it's done. And I'm like, but it doesn't have to be you asshole. And I honestly don't think he feels that way. I think this is one of those shocking moments where he's like, oh my God, oh my Godd. L like I was saying to you off mike, does he live with them to protect his daughter from this guy Step up. I know. I know, I know, but maybe maybe that's what he who knows? What do we know? L, But you know, maybe he is like living there to keep this guy from killing her. I don't know. It seems like they're all protecting this piece of shit. That's what it seemed like to make. All of them. All of that that's totally fair. but I was just shocked that he didn't just turn and walk inside. L it felt to me like he wanted to talk. I don't know. Well he pretty much like that other piece of shit cop, like this is the best you have. Yes Red light means that're on and we're recording. So this is what I wanted to say before because in the end we learn that Senate Bill nine hundred eighty nine, also known as Joanna's Lw, becomes California state law on january first, twenty twenty five It passes unanimously, and this law is amazing. Joanna's law requires investigators responding to reported suicides, drug overdoses, or fatal accidents to check for a history of domestic violence If there is a documented history of domestic violence to assume that this is a suspicious death And if there is a documented history of domestic violence to assume that this is a suspicious death and then treat the crimesen like a homicide, that is amazing. I do not want to take anything away from Jo andna's family forget that pass. That is wonderful But what breaks my heart about this is that it seems like the only thing and I've said this to we've talked about this so many times The onlyn laws we can get passed are just about getting the son of a bitch after he kills the lady. Yeah, and this should also be federal. Yes, Yes. But even before we get to that, I just want to say that it is heartbreaking to me and devastating and so frustrating that we are celebrating this law being passed. That is wonderful. It should be celebrated and congratulations to the family The On laws we can get passast are just about getting the guy after the fact. Yeah. And the system is completely and totally broken, especially when we have we've come so far in terms of like support and data and research and numbers and math and patterns. like everything else is evolving with knowledge except the system and it makes me crazy. Yeah. because it's just like how the numbers are just gonna to keep going up The percentages are just gonna to keep going up, and we're sitting here throwing our hands up saying like there's nothing we can do until he kills you. L're I won't stand for that. We are seeing people, like amazing people saying there are things we can do and some of them are doing it. But the system has isn't changing enough to actually make real. I know. And it feels everything feels like a workaround because like even in donon't D Brandon, like Athena and Amber were talking about how they want like a national database So that when women go on dates, they can literally Google the person they're going on a date with to see if they've ever been to fucking prison for killing someone. And this gu's be h's going to be out before we know it. But even that, even if Amber and Athena get what they want, that's still a workaround. It's still not fixing the it's not even touching the problem. All it's doing is arming women to defend themselves. And who did the investigation? They did. Right. Great. They did And I just refuse to believe that there's nobody in the system who isn't trying to make it better. Yeah. I have to believe that there are people out there trying to do it. and I understand that things move slowly, but it seems like like whenever we get a win on a federal level or even on a state level like it is here, like with a law being changed, it's only ever about getting the guy the fact Yeah and not federal. So you know, so it's like, I'm like California awesome. Yes. but not everyone lives in California. Not everyone lives in California. So Joanna's family is hoping though that they're going to take this win and try to use the momentum like they did before. you know, like ye, hopefully things will move forward for the rest of us. We're back with Joe, Joanna's brother and his wife, Katie Yeah She's a sideline reporter for the Sacramento King. She's a former player in the WNBA, and she's a survivor. This woman is incredible. Awesome. And like Joe and Katie talk about their daughter and how they speak to her. She's freaking six years old, but it's never too early to talk to their daughter about domestic violence. But it's also conversations that we have with JoJo with our son because it is our responsibility to also teach him what is acceptable behavior and treatment of women Talk to your kids, everyone, talkal to your son. Yes, talk to your son. I mean, obviously talk to your daughters, but not more importantly, but just as importantly talk to your fucking. This like toxic masculinity that is taking over and these kids are always on the internet. like please talk to your sons. it's a very dangerous time. Yeah for people to just like to be out in the world. And like fathers and legal guardians who are men, like we have to set a good example. L you know For the young men in our lives, for the young women, for the young people in our lives, like we have to we have to set that example. And so Joe Hunter says that he absolutely used Survivor to advocate for a sister. He season forty eight. I'm on season fifty now and he's always using the show to help Joanna and others like her and their family. And Patricia, Joanna's mother is doing the same. likeike she's always working with Family justice centers and resources. and this ends with like, keep fighting. We know it's exhausting, never give up And we get one eight hundred seven hundred nine nine saafe or the hotline dot orga if you or someone you know needs resources or help