The China AI Competition Narrative

This show is supported by Outshift, Cisco's Inubation enngine Today's AI agents operate in silos, limiting their true potential. We've been focused on building bigger, smarter models, but scaling up is just one approach to reach super intelligence together, we need to do more We need to scale out And we actually have a blueprint from seventy thousand years ago Humans didn't just get smarter individually, the cognitive revolution transformed society because we began sharing knowledge, goals, and innovation Agents are now at that same inflection point. They can connect, but they can't think together. That's why Outshift byy Cisco is building the internet of cognition transforming AI from isolated systems into orchestrated super intelligence By creating an open, interoperable infrastructure, Outshift by Cisco is enabling agents and humans to share intent, context, and reasoning Cognitive evolution for agents is here Explore the internet of cognition at outshift. com Oshift. com Support comes from Yise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send your money abroad with your everyday bank? Choose the smart way wise You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that, where's my money feeling Most transfers arrive in under twenty seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees Be smart, get wise. Download the wise app today. Cheese and C apply From Wiire, this is the Big Inview, where we get to know the people beyond the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power, and culture I'm Katie Drmond, Wireds Global editorial director And I have really been looking forward to this next interview Our guest today is Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, who honestly has a lot in common with us at Wired. Tech executives seem to hate us, and Elon Musk has accused both of us on X of being dead It turns out that tech leaders like critical coverage about as much as they like being taxed. When so many other politicians are still getting their bearings, Senator Sanders has taken a leading stance on regulating artificial intelligence In a recent op ed for The New York Times, he argues for the creation of a sovereign wealth fund that will give the American public a stake in AI quoting here Since AI is built on the collective knowledge of humanity, the wealth it generates must benefit humanity Earlier this spring, Sanders and his frequent collaborator, Representative Alexandria Occasio Cortez introducce legislation that would place a moratorium on building data centers until safeguards on AI are put in place. I'm so pleased now to welcome Senator Bernie Sanders to the big interview to talk about his work on AI We are in fact at the Senator's campaign office in Washington, DC. Senator Sanders, thank you so much for your time. My pleasure. Wonderful. Well, I want to jump right in. I want to start by talking about the sovereign wealth fund that you have proposed in the context of AI. I know you've made some details about this public Tell us how it work. to that. G to it. One second. Okay. I want to back it up. And the concerns that I have what drove me to push for a moratorium on data centers and the sovereign wealth fund is the fact that as I think most people know AI is being pushed by the wealthiest people in the world and people like Musk and Bezhothz and Zuckenberg are those type of guys And they could get less the needs of ordinary people So AI is the most consequential transformational technology in the history of humanity. And it's being pushed by guys who could care less, just want to get richer and more powerful That has got the slop And what has distressed me very much and why I got involved in this issue is and looked all around me in Congress. You would think that with such a transformational technology can impact every aspect of their life, there' be massive debates, right This committee would be doing, Oh my God, we got this leedge isl. what are we gonna zero, nothing. As of this date, as of today, there's not been one significant piece of legislation dealing with AR. Okaykay. what we do We did two things. Number one, we said, wait a minute. You're building these data centers all over the train effack all over the world having a very negative impact on local environments on electric costs. etceter. slow it down. It's like a moratorium unless We saw getting guidelines and legislation to protect ordinary people Second of the war We propose a sovereign AI sovereign wealth fund. All what does that do? It does two things. First of all, most importantly It says that on an issue of such transformational impact, You can't let a handful of billionaires determine the future of humanity. The public has got to own half of these industries meananing that half of the members of the board will be representatives of the public And what's important there is if There are ideas and proposals that will lead or technology that will lead to massive employment or endanger the wellbeing of kids or privacy rights etca, etc You' going to have Half of that board say, sorry, bad idea. You can't do it And the second part of it is as AI as I expect becomes more and more lucrative, these guys make more and more money That money should not just go to a handful of very wealthy people. What is the foundation of they are? What is it baseline based on human knowledge and human You' written the book They got it You've written a poem, You've written some scientific work. You've written for Wired They have that too? That's right, Eactly And you have what compensation did you get for that? Our writers and our company and our publication received zero dollars. zero dollars Standers. And I wrote five books. But but the point is that is the foundation of AI So the public should benefit from that financially as well So what we are saying is that half of the increase in revenue in wealth that is created by AI should go to the people as well And these are public companies paying into this sovereign wealth fund. The Microsoft's, the Googles. Any company of two hundred million dollars or more? but in larger ones You talked a few minutes ago about lawmakers, about members of Congress the absence of urgency that you have seen there, I would argue there has been a consistent absence of urgency among politicians around technology for many, many decades. And I want not only technology, it's a lot of other things. A lot of other things, but I'm very focused on technology What kind of buy in do you think exists now for the idea of a sovereign wealth fund? and what needs to happen for it to become a reality in this country? Everything is political. And we start off The reason that I like your term sense of urgency There is no sense of urgency is you got If you're a member of Congress, and you say, you know what want I talk to some constituents, I worry about the impact on children's mental health. And't worried about jobs. You know what? I think we should do something. You know what happens and you're running for office? You know what happens the next day? You got millions of dollars in thirty second ADs coming out against you So when you talk about lack of urgency It's not that members of Congress are stupid, they are not by launch It is that They are frightened You want to be in polol because you want to get re elected In fact, there was a member that went out, I think on the Democratic side and said a good idea to stay away from that issue Sot about it. Because you start talking about it, you come up with logical ideas as to how we go forward The AI industry is going to go after They're going to spend in this midterm election hundredundreds and hundreds and hundreds ofillions stuff. I got all the money So that is why there is no sense of urgency And that is why we need fundamental campaign finance reform to get rid of citizens United to get rid of Superbaxs So a lot needs to happen to get us there. I mean, I interviewed Alex Borz, who obviously has a big day today. We're talking the dayay of the New York Primaries You know, there were millions and millions and millions of dollars spent to target his candidacy for exactly the reason that you'reing that you're citing. In the context of technology, though, and lawmakers I don't think they're stupid, at least most of them. I think most of them are smart Do you think that they understand the technology that they ought to be overseeing Idally regular some way. I mean, this is so big Mhm that I think meembers grasp on to certain elements of it. For example I would say that many members all worried about the impact on children You know, we've heard these horrible stories of kids committing suicide and the advice of bots and so forth and you know, people emotionally respond to that the idea that We have kids spending so much time with their quote unquote bod companions. I think people sense that There is some discussion, but not A whole lot on the impact that AI will have on jobs. And you know, some people are saying, well, you know, every technology, you know, we don't have too many blacksmiths anymore, too many elevator operators. The world changes, Bernie You know, it's going to change again. Yeahah, we're going to lose jobs, but we're going to create a whole lot of new jobs. Right. Well. I'm not so sure that that's the case. Yeah, and the truth is nobody knows exactly what is going to happen. But I think there has certainly You know, if, I mean, just give you one example of it There are six, seven, eight million who drive trucks, cabs, Uber et cetera. rightight You have been, no doubt, in driverless vehicles. I've been in three or four. Yeah. I've been in one too.. What do you think I them, they worked very, very well. didn't Andt right now in Texas, you' got eighteen wheelers that are driverless ling down the road So what happens? Let's just say that our technology expands to cities, states all over the country. What happens to the fifty year old guys who are now drapped in a truck They going to where they's going to Chobs are? They think they're going to go into Computer coding, I don't think so. Those jobs are gone etcera, etcera Has anyone taken a really hard look at that And I'll tell you something, it's even deeper than job loss You are trans forming our relationships with each other who we are as human beings. I This is really, you know, Musk, who I lies a lot. And' a good salesman lies a lot. lies M on this, we agree. He lies a great job. And he's a good salesman, you know, he does what he does. But you know, Musk you know, is the wealthiest, most powerful guy in the world He says, Oh, work will be obsolete AI and robotics will do E better than you can do it Is that half show probably? I don't know. if that is true, half true So are you going to do? What happens to your life What's your purpose in life Your kids watch are going to be watching Musk. Uh videos all day And you're going to be sitting home by getting a check from who We don't quite know because if you're not working, you're not paying taxes You're not paying taxes, Social security, Medicaid doesn't exist Wh's going to be giving you the check? I thinking many of my colleagues in Congresses asked that question? Privacy issues every time you're on the net Somebody's going to know something about you, go to the doctor Pcription drugs you use your bank accounts that will become accessible to somebody. And take us something else just politician. Its happened to me, I don't know They are deep fakes are getting very, very sophisticated So somebody could put words into your mouth. Have you talkking take you right off the show, but different words in your mouth Most people won't know the difference. I actually had a deep fake of myself created just to see what was possible. And then I presented it to the entire company, Condan Asast, which owns Wired It was uncanny. It was Very funny. Did it was that effective that did? Oh, yeah, E everybody thought it was me and then I walked out on stage And it was me twice Obviously that taken to nefarious ends is a very scary. And we're seeing it al It's already beginning. You may this guy Massey, you remember in Kentucky They had a deep fake of him walking with a hotel room into a hotel room with two women. Yeah. Yeah, It to look reasonably realistic So how do you deal with that you are very much convinced that this is a transformational technology. and I agree with you. I'm curious though, What has informed that point of view? Has your point of view on AI changed in recent years? and if so Where did that come from? Was there a moment? Was there a conversation How did you get to where you are now in terms of p they good No My mind works in weird ways, you know And if What really got me going is what I mentioned a moment ago is it's like Oh, there's an elephant in room. You don't notice the elephant is in the room I mean, everyone could argue how transformative what the timeline is, right? Nody knows the answer to that It is. No one denies that it transformed. And I'm a member of the United States Senate. So I'm going around. Hey, anyone talking about it, thinking about it? No discussion at all That got me going. And then I started talking, you know to people like Jeffrey Hinton. Okay You know, you know, Hinton. Yeah. ye. And he's a Nobel prize winner in physics. Yeah. We did a town meeting last year in Georgetown And he says that as AI becomes smarter than human beings There is a words I don't want to put bds into his mouth, but is at least a strong possibility that it will become independent of human control with possible Calaminous results. Now, you got a Nobel Prize win who happens to one of the godfathers of AI and others talking about that You might think that, you know, whether it's a five percent three percent, eight percent. We all't talking about the future of the entire human race that somebody might stand up and say, Ecuse me. Maybe we should do something notot happening So I get I got into this thing because I was, you know, I read, you know the people And which stunned me is the quote you the lack of urgency that I was seing And so here you are trying to create I am. Somebody who's a total nerd. I I mean I shouldn't say a nerd an anti nerd. I don't know anything about this technology say say often I have a hard time dealing with TV in the house But somebody has got to, you know It is so transformational in every aspect of our lives. We got us not talking about it We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back The world of business is constantly evolving The Comcast business keeps you in step with secure AI backed networking in more than one hundred countries Powering ninety percent of the Fortune five hundred and millions of small businesses And behind it all, thousands of experts answering your call at two AM like it's two PM That one partner, that's it, powering how business gets done for companies around the globe. When you add it all up, no one does business like comcast business This week on the pololitical scene from the New Yorker. Trump's rupture in the world order. Europe caught between two adversarial great powers. That's basically dialing back the clock to not only pre World War two, but really it's a pre twentieth century view of the world. and I would say it's a world of permanent insecurity that we're looking at Join me, Evan Osnos and my colleagues Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser every Friday on the political scene, available wherever you get your podcasts the major frustrations among the American people I don't speak for all of them, but I speak to many of them in our reporting. is the feeling that AI is being foisted on them, right? That it is being presented to them as inevitability by the oligarchs, right? by the Musks, by the Sam Altmans You name them and that they don't have agency and that they don't have control in that. How do you respond to that? I think you're exactly right We are seeing the response in And I think a couple of ways. numberumber one I think a year ago You And I would probably not have perceived the kind of grassroots opposition to data centers Yeah. And one way the immediate concern is I don't want my electric rates to go up. I hate the noise. I don't like the way it's looking. It's you know destroy our local environment But I think in addition to that, people are saying, my God, what are we building here Is that monstrosity down the road going to take my kids? ility for my kid to have a job. All right. And your point is exactly right. And that's, you know, somebody who hass taken on the oligs more than maybe anybody else in the Congress is I see these guys with unbelievable wealth and power. pushing this thing through Somehow or another, we can't guarantee health carere to all people. We can't get more doctors and nurses and do what every other major country does. It is impossible. but you could build hundreds of data centers and transform humanity question of a few years, that you could do it. Why? Because when you guarantee healthcare, this gets really deep stuff I mean, when you guarantee health carere to all people, what does that mean it means that better life. You do it better education. Should we have the best educational system? childca, canan we do it Yeah, we can do it That is not Mr. Musk's go. They have a whole different set of mentalities They are really smart and they're very aggressive And they're effective business people and they want to just push it through This is their world that they're creating. And the average person is sitting there and saying What is this worldir going to do to me into my children. enter the environment but they're not because you have A getting back to the border issue of a corrupt political system Their voices are not being heard because money dominates what goes on here in Washington And I would argue that data centers are a symbol of that very much to people. There's the environmental peiece, there's the noise, there's the community aspect In our observation and in our reporting, it is much more a symbol of that lack of agency. Does that resonate as an ab when you talk? Look, here's the story. this is what happens You have some of the wealthiest corporations, most powerful corporations with lawyers and politicians and everybody else coming into a small town talalking to the town Board of seelecten Five people who volunteered their time by taking on the most powerful institutions in the world who have unbelievable amounts of money who get them to sign these disclosure, you know, these Nonisclosure agreements so people don't even know what's going on in their own town And I think people see the contrast between wealth and power and their own love community And they're getting angry. So in your view, what does responsible data center rollout look like? I think you got you need a moratorum to just answer the questions that you've asked we need to have. I know it sounds like a radical idea How should AI be used to improve our life? What do you guys think Does it do some good things at healthcare? Can help doctors make better diagnoses, better prescriptions? Absolutely guys What about if we wipe out manufacturing jobs in America? Do think that's a good idea? No, Mernie, I don't think that's a good idea Should your kid get hooked up with a AI bot number, Eernie I think just, I'm scared about that What about having your privacy completely invaded That a good idea? No, I thought ch up my privacy. In the face of AI, do we deal with all of those issues So if you say to people, guess what? You're working fifty hours a week down forty hours a week, We're going to lower your work week to twenty, thirty hours, and you're gonna get the same pay. How's that? Hey, I'm in for that All right. I mean, I'm in for that. Yeah. Well, so does everybody? I do really like working, but ye Well we will allow you to work long. Thank you. All right. But if AI is going to create wealth Should that wealth benefit you and everybody else and my grandchildren were just Mr. Musk and his friends. I think ninety percent of the people on ours side and answering Now I know you don't spend much time with the Musks of the world. I don't. You don't. But you did spend some time with Sam Altman recently. I think you spent an hour together talking in particular about the Sovereign Weealth Fund proposal You said Altman was, quote, not enthusiastic about the idea. You also characterized him as a good politician. Yeah. What were your impressions of him when you met Smart guy? Yeah. You're smart guy. and he's very personable I think he's a good salesman That's what he does And I think what he understands and I think the good politician as well And he comes to Washington, he sees These are smart guys. they see the You know, they were trying to tell us a couple of years ago, Oh, hey, it's so great. It's so wonderful. Everybody's going to benefit And now they're saying people increasingly do not believe that. So you're sitting there, you, Sam And some of these guys well, what's your response about What are I going? I gott to give the American people something Guess what? we're going give you five percent of the benefits of the thing with ice sk, just like the goodness of our own heart So you're going to have to figure out how they can sell u their product and their transformation to the American people. And that's one way Trump is the same way You know, I don't believe a word that Trump says But you know, he is afterfter I made that announcement, he came like, Oh, that's an interesting idea,. He did. Yeah yeah Is there a world where the altmans of the world, the tech companies get there before lawmakers, where they realize that they have such a serious optics problem that they need to do more than they're doing to appease the American public. I think you'll see that happening how far we'll go. but The issue is not just Okay, you force me, I'm going to give you thousand a couple of thousand dollars a year. You you got it The issue is power. And they want to keep that. That's. I think their money. money is one thing powerowers on al I wanted to ask you a little bit more about power. I mean, you have been, as you say, taking on the oligarchs for a very long time wired in this era calls them oligarchs too. We are very concerned about the amount of power that these executives wields over the country, over the world and the amount of money and leverage that they have over Washington How do you hold that amount of wealth to account? You recently described Elon Musk achieving trillionaire status as a quote call to action? Can any government hold a trillionaire to account? Well, you're asking a very profound question I mean, essentially you're saying it's the cut out of the bag already trillionaire I mean, that is a stunning amount of wealth. It is. And is Mr. Musk more powerful and more influential in the United States of Congress I mean, I and studyied it He may well be single handedly Can these people be held accountable? I mean, just there as one example using Musk and he's certainly not the only one. He spent some two hundred ninety million do, I think to elect Trump. He did So when you have and it's not just Simb all these zillionaireres I mentioned the AI Super packs, you mentioned boros in New York City, but it's not just there it's all over the country Can we st, I think you can but it almost calls up a revolutionary situation to tell you the truth, not to get you too nervous It means, you know, what I have seen is someone who hass traveled all over the country I have seen Wonderful, just beautiful. You know, people say B, you're old How do you get inspired? How do you keep going? And I see, I have seen all over this country in New York and Vermont California all over this country, beautiful, beautiful young people who really want to save this country and they're getting involved politically We're seeing trade unionists.' a guy just is that one example, a guy came to a rally of mine in Montana trade union guy came to a rally. He spoke about problems the workers were having. He ended up running for Congress anyone against an establishment We're seeing that sing grass, but it's going to take a lot, a lot, a lot of work. your answer the answer to your question is a political answer It is these guys have unbelievable wealth They own much of the media. They ow much of the political system The only economy Can we mobilize people at the grassroots level buy the millions that stand up to them I don't know the answer to them, but I'm trying. That's exactly what I'm trying. And what does that revolution look like? Is that organizing? Is it voting? Is it something else It is for a slot, voting is very, very important. But it is not just voting. I mean, you're seeing is one example. data centence being stopped No my votes. by people mobilizing against them And I think the other thing that we really have got to do in this moment is to and Musk and Zuckerberg and these guys, they have a vision country They have their vision But we have not come forward with an alternative vision All of the power of AI and its potential to increase wealth, etcetera What is televis? What kind of world? What kind of nation do you want to live in Do we talk about it much I mean, the easy stuff is, okay We should do what every other country does have healthcare is and right, find out's easy. Yeah, we should raise the minimum wage to a living wage fine. that's easy.ah. blah blah blah blah You know, these guys are you know, you talk about a revolution, they are revolutionaries. All right. You know, Trump happens not to believe in the Constitution of the United States. That's pretty revolutionary. It is a reolutionary way to be. Many of us conservates actually, you know, we think we should obey the law and listen to the Constitution., it's not where Trump comes from. He's an authoritarian And by the way, one of the things that's interesting to change subject just a little bit, but not. Trump's first visit when he was second term. whereere did he go? Did did he go to Europe No he hates Europe to Saudi Arabia. Remember that I do. The chop happens to be the wealthiest family on earth. happens to be run by a murdered Washington Post journalist, but what Dictatorship So what you're looking at, do not separate Oligy from authorarianism. twwin brothers. C me and say what I mean. There is a reason why Trump gravitates to UAE and to Qatar and to these guys that have incredible wealth. They don't believe in democracy And they're also very, very heavily into AI stuff just deciding what to ask you last. No the real odd one. No, no, no, no, no, no Maybe no While we're talking about the international piece of this, I think one of the big flash points in the conversation around AI in recent years has been China And so much of the urgency around the development of AI absence of regulation around AI has been we have to beat China. and it has become Gspel to some people in this country Do you buy that Tell me more about that We have to go to war against Iran to go to war against Vietnam, that was my war that I saw as a kid cause what was the very domino effect. Remember that one that was dum I gott to go to war against the rock you know what, Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons We' got to go to war against Iran now and we got this China, we got to beat them There's always Always the need for these guys stab an enemy Mhm. You know, it's difficult to have to balance the fact that Musk makes massive investments in China withith China being our enemy and Apple, it's all over China and all that stuff, but I can figure it I did something which got some of these guys the administration nervous We held a town meeting right here the in the capitol And I had two leading American scientists who knew a lot about AI With guess what virtually To guys from China Guess what? You'll be shocked to know that the Chinese people are not all evil, horrible, terrible human beings They got some really smart people there who have the same exact concerns as Americans do. And it was really a good discussion we had. And I have heard from fairly high sources. you know, there may even be some discussions between The White House of the Chinese about how we cannot Destroy the world. I know it's a radical I did, but So the point being is that in the height of the Cold War Soviet Union, US. People like Gobbach Trev and Reagan were smart enough to know that a nuclear war was not going to benefit anybody. And there are people in China who understand that as well. So no, I don't buy, I think that's just the boogeyman as usual It's a false constract to create agurgency. Hey you got toa let us do everything we. We got to run all over. Youve got to destro your communities copy China I don't think most Americans have buy that I want to end with some optimism. Let's to be optimistic. Let's be optimistic. You talked a few minutes ago about absence of vision for the United States for what this could look like When you think about artificial intelligence And it goes the way you want it to go. goes in the right direction, according to Senator Sanders. What does our future look like? What does life look like for our kids? I mean my kids. Okay. How many kids do you have? I have one Hart of f. I care about their future. We often care about each other's kids I don't know the answer to that question And maybe I'm kind of conservative on these things. I want to see a world We can bring about this world We have Poverty and economic stress doesn't exist I grew up in a working class family and I know a little bit about that I know that today working class Pople die six, seven years earlier. and wealthy people You know that, not talked about very often because of the stress of everyday life. So how do you create can we create an economy in which people have the basic necessities of life the opportunity to get a good education. Great healthcare. We have new hospitals all over this country state of the art. Can AI play a role in helping us? in healthcare, et cetera. Yeah But I'll tell you something And I haven't thought it through. you, I'm talking off my head here. is these robots, you know, I I worry very much for better or for worse, that's all we got as human beings And I don't want to lose our ability to relate to each other for the musks of the world They believe in efficiency, right? So if there's a robot out there they could do better than you, what do I need you for I don't think that's a good trade off to tell you the truth. So I think we have to be veryer careful about how we protect What is human and important well us how we have the soul and we have emotions and we have feelings Rbot stone Today I doesn't So you asked me a good question of which I don't have a full answer, but Those are the kind of questions we've got to be dealing with. Well, let me ask you this, and this will be the last question. I think for so many people right now, they look at The absence of regulation, they look at the confluence of power in the tech industry with power in Washington, DC They look at Donald Trump in the White House It can feel very overwhelming and it can feel very daunting and it can feel impossible to imagine that things could be anything other than what they are What should give Someone watching this or listening to it hope. things could be different You know, I do justust as that of sugars. your description of how people feel. is absolutely right. People are overwhelmed with all of these that throw in climate change as well Europe is now experiencing by far the worst heat waves have had. you know become begin to live in despair All that I can say is I want Americans to go through our own history as a nation And I don't mean to be political overly patriotic here Romantic y you think about it Think about it in the seventeen seventies. You know, we read about this stuff. Th are really incredibly brave guys. taking on the greatest military in the world because They really wanted a sense of freedom that the King of England was like giving them And if you look at the odds You know they're the odds of makers now. I don't think they would have given Thomas Jefferson in Washington much of a shot They did it And you think You know, you think about the abomination of slavery , the abolitionist fighting not just in the south, but in the north as well. You know, talking about the immorality of slavery.