Political Outcry and Future Outlook

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That's s r val uncanny serval dot com slash uncanny From Wired, this is the Big Interview, where we get to know the people beyond the headlines, in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power, and culture. I'm Katie Drummond, Wired's global editorial director. Today we're going to be talking about media and the Trump administration's approach to regulating it. My guest is Anna Gomez, a commissioner with the Federal Communications Commission, or FCC . In May, Gomez wrote a shocking letter to Disney's CEO, warning that the company is the target of a quote sustained, coordinated campaign of censorship and control. She also warned that Disney wouldn't be the only target. So we wanted to invite Commissioner Gomez on the show to talk about her fears for press freedom, the role of the FCC, and what she thinks comes next. She joins me now. Welcome Commissioner Gomez. Thank you for being here. Thanks, it's great to be here. Now I want to start before we talk more about Disney and your letter and all the rest of it. There's so much, I want to ask you a very basic question for our listeners . What is your agency's basic role? Sort of give me FCC one hundred and one. What does the FCC do? Well, the FCC is the nation's telecommunications and communications regular . In broad strokes, our job is to make sure that everyone in the country is connected, for example, to high speed broadband, to issue licenses for the air waves like we do with your cell phones , with satellites and with broadcasters to protect consumers, such as our constant battle with Robo Callers . The worst, yes . Yes , to assure public safety has what it needs to do its job , usually, meaning through the airwaves , and to ensure that innovation can move forward, whether it's by negotiating internationally , again for the use of the airwaves so that we can have new products and services. And so to be clear, the FCC regulates what goes out over the air. So radio, television , but it does not regulate, for example, cable or streaming services or digital content, right? So this podcast, for example, or if you turn on your TV and you decide to watch Netflix instead of deciding to watch a TV channel , those would not be within the purview of the FCC That's correct. Our authority reallys stem from our ability to license the airwaves to these broadcasters. We have very minimal cable regulations , but for the most part we only regulate broadcast television. Now you've been with the FCC in various roles for many years. You were sworn in as commissioner in twenty twenty three . What does a commissioner actually do? Sort of tell us a little bit about your job day to day? Normally, there are five commissioners. So we are mult ai member agency . And the reason you want that is because you want to have a diversity of expertise and opinions. And what commissioners do is they vote to adopt new rules or they vote to approve major mergers , which is really transfers of control of licenses and to propose new rules. The chair is basically designated to oversee the management of the agency, but the commissioners also often vote on management type issues , creation of offices lead staffing of the bureaus, things like that . Got it. Now, again, as I said, you've been with the F CC for many years . When did you get your first inkling that something about the FCC was changing? I mean, when did you have that first moment of, wait a minute, this actually doesn't feel quite right. This doesn't feel like what we ought to be doing or what ought to be done with regards to how we are we are handling our oversight and our purview . It started very early in the current administration, not just in the attack s on good press , but also the constant demands for revocation of licenses, for example. One of the first actions that this agency took in the broadcast area was it revived complaints against ABC , CBS , and NBC that the prior FCC staff, the expert staff, had dismissed as not raising valid complaints against under the current law. And that to me I saw an action that was A unnecessary , but also to pressure those networks to change their editorial practices . For example, one of those complaints was the complaints against CBS for the editing of the Kamala Harris interview that then candidate Trump had sued CBS over and we had a invalid claim that it violated our policy against news distortion and that is still open. That' still hasnt been dismissed, even though we all saw the transcript and the actual video of the entire interview, and it was very clear that there was no manipulation there, no intention to mislead the public. It was simply that they cut the interview for promotional purposes length purposes. We saw that also against ABC and NBC as well. And what did you see in those initial days and months from the networks themselves, from CBS, from ABC, from NBC, in terms of that tension between do we fight or do we capitulate? My very strong recollection is that there was a lot of capitulation happening, unless I'm mistaken. Yes. Well, part of the problem of course is that CBS's parent, paramount and the owner really wanted to sell paramount to Skydance . And so I believe that keeping open this complaint and taking very public actions to waive that their possible violation of the FCC's rules, even though it was completely baseless , was used in part to pressure Paramount to settle the lawsuit that the president had filed against Paranat . And Paranelt did in fact settle that lawsuit because it wanted the FCC to approve the transfer of its licenses to Skydance . And as soon as they settled that, the FCC approved the transfer . But not only did they approve the transfer , CBS made commitments to take actions to basically change their editorial practices . And they appointed an ombudsperson who's supposed to field complaints about the content of CBS and they agreed to eliminate their diversity, equity and inclusion policies. All of this was pressured by this administration in order to both settle, I think the lawsuit, I believe that and as well as in order to get CBS to change its editorial practices . We have seen that happen and yet somehow this onbirdsvir person doesn't seem to be doing anything about that . Why . I mean they appear to be very selective in sort of what they are deciding to take action on and what they're not . I'm curious for you as a commissioner , as you are watching this unfold, let's say you're watching the FCC approve that merger, for example. Where are the lines for you in terms of your ability to fight that? To say we should not be doing this. I mean, what kind of authority does a commissioner have within the FCC to combat some of what you're seeing? Well, with Paramount in particular in particular the Paramount Sky Dance Transaction, I demanded and it was able to get that the full commission would actually approve the transaction would vote on the transaction because I dissented on the order that approved the transfer of the licenses. So on one commissioner, right now there's only three. I forgot to mention that earlier. There's normally five, there's only three of us, and I am very frequently outvoted on matters where I disagree with whether the agency is going , but I am able to speak out and that is what I am trying to do. I am trying to raise the alarm bells because what I am seeing in this administration is an absolute campaign to censor and to control speech and to really violate press freedom , which is so important for our democracy. So I, you know, where I can, I dissent. I wrote my letter to Disney on the on the matter that they are facing before the FCC, which I'm sure you want to delve into. I do . And I embarked on a First Amendment tour where I'm going all over the country, rural areas , small towns, east, west coast. I've been all over the country talking to people about why it's so important for us to protect our freedoms and our democracy and in my case the First Amendment. Now I have to ask, I do want to turn Disney, but you mentioned that there are usually five commissioners and right now there are three. What happened to the other two? Where are they? So the other two resigned last summer and there hasn't been any movement to replace them. So right now we are in a two to one commission, meaning there's two Republicans and V. What would you imagine would be the reason to not replace them? I can't get in the head of the White House or why because the president nominates commissioners and then the Senate confirms them. I imagine it's much easier to deal with two colleagues than four , but I sincerely don't know why they haven't been replaced. Well, let's talk about Disney. So in your letter, which you wrote to Disney's CEO, you point out several actions the FCC has taken, right? They include targeting Jimmy Kimmel, of course, investigating the view , and calling up eight of ABC's affiliate stations for renewal . That's the one that you called in the letter quote, The most egregious assault. Can you explain to us what that means? What does it mean to call up affiliates for renewal and why that specifically is so egregious relative to the other two examples ? Yes . So under normal circumstances, broadcasters licenses come up for renewal every eight years and they're staggered. It's a big production for broadcasters to file for renewal and to show that they are in fact serving their local communities and complying with all the FCC's rules . In this case, Disney's licenses were not coming up for renewal until the earliest twenty twenty eight and the latest I think was twenty thirty one or twenty thirty two . But the point is the commission basically out of the blue issued an order that said, No, we're going to call up your licenses for renewal. You have thirty days to seek renewal of all eight of your licenses . The reason this is so egregious is because it's clear that what the FCC is doing is it is retaliating against ABC because it is refusing to capitulate at this point with this administration's demands that it fire Jimmy Kiball, that it get rid of the view, that it, you know, basically just report things in a way that this administration wants it to be reported. They are going after the network which we do not have any authority over by going after their eight broadcast license stations. There are tons of affiliates all over the country , but they're not all owned. Only eight are actually owned by Disney itself . Not only that, but this pretext that the reason why they are doing so is because there's been an invest igation into Disney's diversity, equity and inclusion practices and that Disney somehow hasn't sufficiently complied with the many demands that this commission has given it for more and more documents, even though when Disney very much clearly ships, they have sent tens of thousands of documents in response to the FCC's enforcement process. It's just so clearly pretextual. It's just harassment. Now wrote that letter, Disney and ABC are, as you said, fighting the FCC . How do you think that will turn out? And what does that fight look like for them? There's a whole process that has to happen. So the FCC issues its order , Disney filed its response. Now FCC put that out for comment and is seeking petitions to deny. And so it's going to happen is we're going to have some partisan organizations that already have come in and said, Oh yeah, you know, you absolutely should not renew these licenses because Disney's such a bad actor with diversity, equality and inclusion policies , and then there's a chance to respond to that. If the commission decides to take adverse action, then there's further processes because taking away a broadcaster's license is taking away their lifeblood. That is, you know, what they operate under. And so if the commission decides to take some kind of adverse action, there would have to be a vote by the commission to send it for hearing, that would go to hearing, then the commission decides to take any kind of adverse action, then they get to appeal. And this is what I've been saying, which is why I'm so glad that Disney is actually pushing back and fighting on this , because if it gets appealed, they will win. Because what this administration is doing is contrary to the law , it's contrary to the Constitution , and it's very obvious. And the FCC and the administration have created a very public record demands to have control these broadcasters are saying about the administration. So it's so clear that it's pretextual. They will absolutely win. When Disney filed its response, their resp onse not only had a top telecom attorney in D. C. , but also a former solicitor general who was very well known, one of the top Supreme Court appellate lawyers . So they are clearly signaling that they are going to fight this, and I'm glad they are because they are choosing to defend the First Amendment and press freedoms rather than we get . Writing this letter seems like it would come at the expense of personal and professional risk for you. I'm curious about what your considerations were as you sat down to write it, as you made the decision to write it. What were you maybe worri ed about? What were you thinking when you decided to write this letter and to make it public? Honestly, this has not been that hard for me because I really strongly believe in protecting our constitutional freedoms. I'm relatively at the end of my career and again, just the public interest of standing up for our constitutional rights is something not only that I swore to do when I was sworn in as a commissioner, but also just, I believe, very strongly for the protection of our democracy. So I recognize that this administration likes to retaliate against its critics , and that certainly is something that may happen , but it was so important to me to help not just Disney, but all broadcasters understand what their rights are and that this commission does not have the authority to do what it is doing. But this administration is violating the Constitution and I wanted them to strengthen their spine . And Disney has come forward and we have a strengthened spine. They have decided that it is in their interest to fight this, and that is what I hoped for, and I am glad that they are doing that. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back . The world gets more interesting when we stop and ask questions. That's what Shortwave, MPR's Science podcast is all about. Shortwave spends each episode answering a big question like, why do we have nightmares? How does AI affect my energy bill ? And how can trash be good for the environment? In under fifteen minutes, Shortwave follows a question wherever it leads and brings you along for the ride. It's science, but not the kind you remember from school. It's surprising, playful, and full of wonder . Science isn't just for PhDs of the world. It's for everyone , including those of us who didn't realize we love science. At Wired, we love a good rabbit hole. We recommend listening to their recent episode Where did the Moon come from Earth didn't always have a moon. 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Go to quince. com slash uncanny for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too . That's Q INCE dot com slash uncanny for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns quince dot com slash uncanny . This week on the political scene from the New Yorker, Trump's Rupture in the World Order Europe caught between two adversarial great powers. That's basically dialing back the clock to not only pre World War two, but really it's a pre twentieth century view of the world and I would say it's a world of permanent insecurity that we're looking at. Join me, Evan Osnos and my colleagues, Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser every Friday on the political scene, available wherever you get your podcast s . Now I did want to ask you a little bit about your job and your job security. So my understanding is that your term is actually up at the end of June . You can then stay on, I believe, for a year and a half following the end of that term . At what point can the president fire you? Can he fire you today if he wants to? Or is it easier for him to fire you after your term is up? So under normal times that a president would only be able to fire you for cause . Okay , but he has declared that he has the right to fire anyone at whatever time he wants and unfortunately that's being litigated in the Supreme Court, which any day now, maybe any week now, we will see a decision in slaughter versus Trump, I guess it's called, which is going to decide whether to overturn the precedent that he can't actually do that without cause . That's a very specific case after he fired the federal trade commissioners, the Democrats on the Federal Trade Commission. So we'll see what the Supreme Court says. But the fact that my term has expired doesn't really strengthen or weaken a case. The only way that he can get rid of me other than maybe by firing me depending on what the Supreme Court does is if he nominates and the Senate confirms a replacement in the before I acted . Have you worried in the last few months about being fired? Oh, I check my email every day to see if I've been fired . To see if he emailed you. Why don't you think you have been fired? I mean, he has fired many of his his harshest critics. Why spare you? I don't know exactly because I have not spoken to the White House about this. I suspect it's because we have a quorum requirement in our law. Not only does the FCC require three commissioners in order to act , it also requires what we call a fair majority. So at least one non Republican commissioner. And I suspect that if he were to fire me any actions that the commission took would then probably be subject to appeal . So I don't know if that's the case. That's what conventional wisdom says, so to speak. Yeah, so he's sort of stuck with you. He's sort of stuck with you for now. Unfortunately for him. I'm curious about your relationship with your fellow commissioners, especially the FCC Chairman, Brendan Carr. I mean, as you said, you're the only Democrat on this commission . Is that isolating? Is that lonely? Is that alienating? I mean, how do you work with your two fellow commissioners here? Well, you know, interestingly, there's a lot that we work on together very well . We often agree on like how to allocate the airwaves . Again, robocalls . Everyone's quite united in trying to fight robocalls. The one thing, the one thing we can all agree on , Robotics. Yes. Yeah . Yes. And so for a lot of what's on the commission's agenda , we work very well together. And I enjoy working with my colleagues on a day to day basis , it's a very friendly atmosphere. Now, Brendan Carr has made some very controversial statements. I mean, I would characterize them as outrageous. He has also said that the FCC is not an independent agency in testimony before Congress , when you speak out against what he says or against the actions that he's taking, is that akin to taking a public standstore your boss? I mean, is that the dynamic at play here? No, the commissioners all independently confirmed by Congress . Okay, so it's like taking a stand against a colleague. It's taking a stand against the administration and the FCC. There we go. Is there anything that would make you leave? Do you have a red line? I think it's important that I continue to fight where I can. It's a good question. I haven't hit that if it exists. I just think it's really important that I'm able to speak out against what this administration is doing. Speaking of this administration, I mean it is June . We are looking at another two and a half years of the Trump administration . The battle between the administration and the press, I would argue isn't going away. It's not going anywhere anytime soon . What do you think people should expect in the next two and a half years? Is there anything that would slow the administration down? Is there anything that would bring them to heal when it comes to press freedom? What should we all be looking out for? I think it's important to watch what happens with these appeals . We have seen that when any entity appeals , the courts have upheld the First Amendment. So we saw that with the New York Times, we've seen that with the Wall Street Journal. We've seen that in other contexts as well. The administration keeps trying and they keep getting pushed back. Now, they keep trying to circumvent these court decisions. I'm not unaware of that, but nonetheless if these parties stand up and push back , then they will win and that is going to continue to diminish the ability that this administration has so far had to chill speech, which is very real . We see a lot of children speech throughout the country. And I see that in my First Amendment tour where people are terrified of being brought before the commission and dragged into some kind of a big enforcement pipe. I am also hopeful that Congress will step up and do some strong oversight. We have had some of that, but it's really important to make clear what's happening. The Jimmy Kimmel incident was so shocking to the public , but these threats, these actions by the administration had been going on already for a year or close to a year when that happened. It was just that was the one that really broke through the public. And when it did, that's when the public said, wait a minute, we're not going to tolerate this . And that's part of I think why Disney has chosen to fight because really lost a lot of subscribers. Right. Yes. It was bad for them. Yeah. It was bad business for them . So I am hopeful that if we continue to make it clear what's happening with this administration, that the courts continue to uphold the First Amendment and free speech and free press and that Congress will continue its oversight and that the public in general will continue to demand that we respect our Constitution. Is there anything else you would like to see from your fellow Democrats here? Is there more that they could be doing? And what would that look like? There's not that many of us in the administration, that's for sure. But where I've seen that there are some black there have actually been speaking out and pushing back where this administration is violating the law or abusing its authority in order to go after companies that aren't bending the knee, are refusing to get rid of diversity, equity inclusion policies, things like that. But when you speak out, I think it really is that has a strong effect because we need and this is part of the reason why we need the first fourth estate, right is we need to be held to account that is why we need reporting on what is happening. But it also helps when you have Democrats speaking out against what this administration is doing. If it's okay, I want to take a few minutes to talk about the other pieces of the FCC, of which there are many . I know expanding access to the internet is a huge driver for you. I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit more about that initiative and what else you'd like to see the FCC focused on instead of maybe spending all of their time on what we've been discussing, how else do you wish you were spending your time right now? Yeah, expanding access to the Internet is so important. We live in a digital economy. Not only do we live in a digital economy, but now we have the AI economy that is very quickly coming upon us. There's a lot of engineers who would say we've had AI for a while , but now it's really becoming clear that it's going to affect everybody everywhere. And I think that we really need to make sure that all communities are prepared for that. Now all communities do not have access to sufficient capacity broadband that they actually can participate in this AI economy. And that is an issue. The administration is spending tens of billions of dollars to deploy high speed broadband. You and I can argue whether they actually allocated the money correctly. But the thing that the administr ation is not focusing on that is the users themselves, the consumers themselves . The administration basically by executive order, I think, I'm not even sure it was from that, ignored a digital equity grant program that Congress authorized and funded that could be used for digital literacy for communities that need to learn how to use the internet and now in the AI economy to partic howipate in the AI economy. This administration also absolutely pays no attention to affordability. We had affordability programs here at the FCC that the Commission voted to stop and one of those being providing hotspots to schools and libraries to provide to low income students and patrons so that they can have broadband at home . So I really wish that we would focus on improving any programs that we have , which we do have a program is called the Wifeline Program, which is a very small program that provides support to households for voice and broadband connectivity . I think that that can be improved. Instead, we're finding ways to weaken it , and that's problematic. I keep saying if we build out these tens of billions of dollars of fiber or satellite or fixed wireless services to households and they don't know how to use it or they can't afford to use it, then we're building bridges to nowhere . So I really think we should be focusing on that. You mentioned AI a few minutes ago. I'm curious , obviously the technology to your point is accelerating so quickly. Adoption is growing. Obviously, internet access is a prerequisite to even being able to try an LLM, for example. But we're seeing now with efforts to regulate AI. I mean, the machinations of government move incredibly slowly. There has not been tremendous progress in the Trump administration around AI regulation. I mean, certainly that's more by design, I suppose, than them being slow. But I'm curious about where the FCC fits in there. Is there a role for the FCC in protecting consumers when it comes to AI and the potential risks, downsides and harms for the user? I do think that we have some authority in that area. One thing that we had proposed to do that this administration has not picked up , for example, and this is a media issue was to require political ads that use AI to disclose that the ads used AI. It's getting more and more sophisticated as you know . And we are seeing a plethora of ads that use AI and it would just require a disclosure kind of like what you see now where it says , you know, this ad has been sponsored by whoever the sponsor is. And that's just a transparency requirement. There's other ways that we can look at the use of AI, for example, combating global calls. How can we use AI to combat robots, for example? And then finally, for me, making sure connectivity for all communities that need to participate in the AI economy is affordable and a isvailable to everyone. Now, speaking of consumers, I'm curious about your thoughts on the Paramount and Warner Brothers Discovery Mega Merger. You've been vocal about your concerns there and the potential implications for Americans . What worries you that about that merger? I mean we have just seen breathtaking consolidation in the media market. Certainly, yeah. Now the Warner Brothers paramount merger is actually not something that's before the FCC from a license perspective , but there's one thing that we do have to act on and that is we have to approve the foreign ownership component of that transaction. This is basically foreign controlled funds that are going to half own a very large media organization. And these are governments, the governments of Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE , governments that at least one of which we know murdered a reporter because our intelligence agencies told us so they're not friendly to press freedom. They use the media for geopolitical purposes. Now this is indirect ownership. So Paramount and Worterburgers would say, well, but it's they're not voting, but you gotta be kidding me. You don't think a call to the CEO is going to have to make a difference about what gets produced and what doesn't get produced. It's going to have a huge impact on what we see and hear and it's to me a national security concern . So I have called for the security agencies to review this. And in fact they have opened a review of the foreign ownership component, which is the only thing the FCC has any authority over. We already saw the Justice Department already decided not to oppose the merger , so I am skeptical that this will actually get any kind of a thorough review , but it should , and we should all be concerned about how much control over our media these foreign governments will have. That is fascinating. I had not given a ton of thought candidly to the ownership structure underpinning that merger. So not only do we have that national security concern, but from a news and press freedom point of view, obviously the big conversation among journalists is that you also have CBS News and C NN under the same ownership , the Ellisons, which has potentially huge ramifications for what's covered and how it's covered based on just what we've seen from CBS News in recent months. Now, I always feel like I have to say this, for the most part, that's their first amendment right . But where we see consumers being harmed or national security interests, that's where I think it's problematic . All right, another quick break. We'll be right back . With verbo care , help is always ready before , during, and after your stay . We've planned for the plot twists so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind