Control Alt Delete Technology Game

This show is supported by Outshift, Cisco's Inubation enngine Today's AI agents operate in silos, limiting their true potential. We've been focused on building bigger, smarter models, but scaling up is just one approach to reach super intelligence together, we need to do more We need to scale out And we actually have a blueprint from seventy thousand years ago Humans didn't just get smarter individually, the cognitive revolution transformed society because we began sharing knowledge, goals, and innovation Agents are now at that same inflection point. They can connect, but they can't think together. That's why Outshift byy Cisco is building the internet of cognition transforming AI from isolated systems into orchestrated super intelligence By creating an open, interoperable infrastructure, Outshift by Cisco is enabling agents and humans to share intent, context, and reasoning Cognitive evolution for agents is here Explore the internet of cognition at outshift. com Oshift. com F From Wired, this is the Big Interview, where we get to know the people beyond the headlines in conversations that explore the intersection of technology, power, and culture. I'm Wired global editorial director, Katie Drummitt ahead of midtern elections, we've been talking to candidates in key races across the country Among the big ones to watch is the Governor's race in California, where several Democrats and two Republicans are in the race to succeed incumbent Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom, who can't run again because of term limits One of those hopefuls is billionaire climate activist Tom Steyer, who is largely self financing his run So far, Steer's campaign says he spent more than one hundred thirty million dollars in his quest for the governor's office, which is closing in on a state campaign spending record The dynamics of the race have shifted, especially among Democrats since one of the front runners, former California rep Eric Swalwell, out of the race and resigned from Congress in April following allegations of sexual misconduct. The latest polling from Emerson College polling and inside California pololitics shows a close race with former health and Han Services Secretary, Javier Vasera just slightly ahead of Steyr and Republican Steve Hilton, who are neck and neck Tom joins me now to talk about his campaign, climate activism, and California's role on the national stage Thank you for joining us on the big interview , thank you for having me. So I want to start with your background because you are a billionaire and you like to tell the story of your transformation, right? where and how you made your money in hedge fund world to now and in the last sort of decade plus being actually a climate activist, Tell us about that transformation In terms of climate, what happened was this When I was growing up, I spent when I got free time. Either from school or work, I tried to go to wild places and get outdoor jobs So, you know, I worked as a ranchand, I worked picking fruit and after Before I went to business school, I spent the summer in Alaska and I went to Alaska because I wanted to see what North America looked like before Europeans showed up And I wanted to see the animals, I wanted to see the birds. I wanted to see the fish. I wanted to look at Denali. I wanted to see what it looked like, you know, vast untracked North America, Rich and And u In two thousand six, I wanted My wife and four kids, none of whom had ever been there to see it too. L, this is what it used to look like. So we went up there for a week and we tried to, you know, I had a whole bunch of plans of what we could see, but what we could see was Alaska was melting It was really obvious, and it's one thing to read about it on it page when you're working away and thinking about a thousand things, but it's another thing. physically see where there used to be a mountain of ice and now it's a valley It's amazing And so you started sort of grappling with that realization At what point though, do you say I am going to say goodbye to running a hedge fund, right? I'm going to sort of turn my back on this career And I'm going to do something totally different. And a big part of that is going to be climate activism. How did that happen I mean, I didn't just leave specifically only to do climate. Sure. You know, it was funny I was talking to one of my best friends this morning And he was saying, well, the whole point of life is to have a positive impact I would hope so. ye. Yes, yes. And I got very, very scared that I was going to have a life of no meaning actually what it was It wasn't I felt like, oh my Godd, I'm going to die and I've had dummy. it's like I've amassked a whole bunch of you know, numbers on a spreadsheet But who cares? noobody includluding me. And so I felt someomewhat desperate to get out and for things that have meaning including climate. very, you know, I spend a lot of time thinking How is it that I always thought climate was this huge opportunity for us.ike Oh financial opportunity No, it an opportunity for America to be America. I see, I see, I see. Lead the world, do the right things, save the world, buildild businesses around it. but I wasn't trying to build businesses. I was basically trying to give everybody else a chance to say, wow. And I thought, here's a great example. There's something clearly wrong here We can do the tech You can do the finance. We can do the global leadership. Let's Let's do it, man. I want to move to talking actually about your run for governor, but climate is a big piece of that. Obviously, Trump is in the office. He's the president of the United States as he will be presumably for another few years What kind of power does the governor's seat give you visa vis climate policy knowing that Donald Trump is the president of the United States. Well, I think it gives us a chance to show what success looks like. I think what Donald Trump is doing, he's showing the world what failure looks like. I mean, he's so scared of failure. And he's failing on an absolutely gargantuan scale. But success looks like moving rapidly to sustainable, clean energy that's cheaper. P proving to the world that doing this is actually the way to succeed. economically as well as doing the right thing. Build a bunch of companies around it, get some great technologies going All of which are happening All of which are within our grasp. But which you know, it's kind of like the president is desperately fighting to keep us on whale oil. The president is trying to outlw color TV's. We need to stay with the black and white models that really work. I mean, it's nuts Your commitment to being sort of quote unquote, a good billionaire is laudable, I think. I have more questions about it, but sort of on its face is an admirable commitment Critics have questioned some of Falleron your former hedge funds past investments, right? The New York Times published piece earlier this month Quioning whether you still have financial ties to investments that include fossil fuels. And I want to hear from you more fully on this, and I know that our listeners do too. What can you tell voters about the status of your investments visa Vis? that hedge fund. I did The thing that I have left at Farline is some residual buildings, investing in real estate I divested from all the oil and gas from there in twenty twelve. That's one of the reasons I left. I didn't feel You know, I could change that organization. People had signed up. hundredundreds of people had signed up to run an organization a certain way And I had moved on. Yeah And you know, you'd think I started it I was the head of it. you'd think I could just like This is what we're doing, but that's not really how organizations work in my mind, and I'm not that person anyway. And so I was like, now Anything that's left there you have to get me out of anything related to fossil fuels and a number of other things can't have it And that happened fourteen years ago. So no, they that New York Times article was silly and Tim. The reason I left was I didn't feel that I could be there and do what I'm doing now without people thinking I was a hypocrite. When you think about the fact that you built your wealth, in that world How do you think about that and how do you grapple with that? And how would you urge voters to think about it? I think about it pretty simply. Yeah, which is this I worked. Infinance I went to Stanford Business School All of those worlds premised on the idea, which I accepted. that basically the way that prorogress happens is through a combination of capitalism and democracy. And that therefore capitalism is an engine. and if you know, Warren Buffett will say this better than I have He said basically, look Capitalism is produced all advantage the material advantage that people have got from all over the world It is the driving force for a more productive ecomy and one which produces goods and services at a level that has never before seen in the history of the world, and it is a huge force for good. And I accepted it. And it was kind of like that was the mantra And what happened was as I was there and started to examine it and think more independently, I thought, Okay, that's true lot in a lot of ways It is true in a lot of ways. And so I haven't rejected it But it's also a case that it's not always true And when it isn't true, it can be spectacularly not true So I felt like, okay It's no longer a blanket cover for everything And in fact, therefore I felt like I had to lead my life differently and I had to invest differently and I had to change because I came to a realization that the basic premise that it's all good ion. And therefore, I didn't want to live that way and I wanted to change the way I invested. I did want to completely change what I was doing. So it wasn't just about Inesting I very much wanted to do that, but I also felt like the investing itself I wasn't okay with. for the reason you just said Yeah Like doesn't that seem hypocritical, Tom? It's like, Yeahah, it does. It absolutely does. And that's why I didn't do it. I was like, okay, it's got to stop. and it took me a long time to get out of there because Everybody who I had hired every single person in that firm was the primary breadwinner for their family. E single person. We had the trust of hundreds of pension funds endowments and foundations. and I just didn't feel like we could leave them in alur. And I felt like it's really important to get this transition to happen right. and it took a long time The truth was the idea that I haven't made that transition is decade and a half of. You know, a lot of progressives, and I think I would argue, including some of the voters you're trying to court don't think that billionaires should exist in the first place. That becoming a billionaire in and of itself is immoral. that there is not sort of an ethical route to being a billionaire and sustaining that level of wealth that another Tom Styer, in essence, shouldn't be able to exist in twenty years What do you say to that? Well I don't agree with that And I'll get. T tellell me more about that. Look We have idea California is about innovation and ideas It's about imagining and creating the future. That's what we do. That's what this state is about And frankly, that's what Wired magazine is covering It is people who come up with an idea that's never been thought of before. and change the world you know, that's much more possible now for a whole bunch of reasons involving software information technology, the ability to expand infinitely So if you say to me If someone comes up with an idea can be turned into a business that can change the world actually, you know, do immense good Should we just put a lid on that? Should we not give the incentive there? I have a different attitude. My attitude is this There's a reason people come to California build a business because we have the ecosystem to build a business and we could go into what all of what that entails. But most of what that entails is a bunch of people fighting to build a system over a thousand years that involves rule of law deemocracy Freedom Now if you look at California This state runs because of very hard working. very skilled people who are paid not very much at all And so when someone says to me, I'm going to come to California I'm going to build a business great. It's going to change the world Great And then I'm going to try and rip those people off, not be a good citizen, not pay my fair share everything I can to basically extract from that system what it has without being a part of that system. That offends me That extraction you're referring to, is that how you see the current ecosystem in California now? Do you think that there is sort of an exploitation happening No. I think that to a large extent I feel like people come here They do build these great businesses, and mostly they stay, they pay their taxes, they're good citizens, they do a whole bunch of things There are a bunch of people who don't do that. you know, they come and they're worried that in fact that they'd never have to share anything that they made. It's all mine It is not all yours, by the way You came here because there was a system that let you succeed You could have gone to one hundred and ninety other countries. You could have gone to forty nine other states, but you came here for a good reason because this is the best place to start and build a business. So you should be part of that ecosystem and you should take pride. You know I call it shared prosperity. You should take pride in the prosperity that you're creating and you should take pride in sharing it because this whole system doesn't work with the kind of inequality that we're seeing. I mean, I know you know this, but the inequality is more than the gilded age Obse. Being in San Francisco for me for the last ten years has been a very strange experience. I will say that. I mean I think it is Visceral, I think that you can see it when you walk down the street I think it is appalling in many respects. And I'm curious, you know, one of the issues that you are being asked to chime in on and that, you know, potentially as governor, you would inherit is this California Billionaire tax Act, right? Which is what you were just talking about in terms of sort of shared prosperity, I think ties very cleanly into that issue. You've said you're in favor of it. You've also said it doesn't go far enough. Tell me more about that because this is not The most popular idea among some of the prominent billionaires who currently call California home. And I'm wondering about how you grapple with that as, you know, a potential governor of the state Look I said if it's on the ballot, I will vote for it. Yeah. And said it doesn't go for it. It's a one time tax takes the money and it puts it into a very specific use. doesn't specifically include education And one of the things that I'm saying is we need to be much better at education in the state of California. We really need to refocus on it because we used to be the best education state And so to a very large extent issues with the way that bill is written and designed that I think are s very imperfect. but the basic point is this. We have the highest percentage of people in poverty in the United States of America. We have the greatest inequality We have an incredibly high average Income But that average includes some off the charts incomes The majority of Californians are really struggling to make ends meet. Yeah reallyally struggling. I mean, millions of people giving up their health care inssurance. so that they can make rent peopleople who have worked been fully employed. twenty years working for UC living in their cars I mean, that doesn't make any sense And so what I'm talking about is how do we redress this partart of that is We need to have a sense from everybody of shared prosperity You said, am I against billionaires? No I want people to come here and change the world. and there's some stuff going on that is absolutely mind blowingly great Honestly I want us to be the generator of ideas and innovation It changes the future for everyone in the state builds great companies and changes the world I just want it to be done in the context of a system that doesn't forget Our teachers. doesnesn't forget the nurses doesn't forget the people who are working in the schools, doesn't forget the custodians and you know, there's a sense that somehow These people are ripping off the system. That is the absolute opposite of the truth. These are the people who make the system run and they are really at their wits end. And that's why I'm running, Look, It's not right This election is about, do you think we need change in California? If you think that this extraordinarily unequal system which is getting more unequal all the time go on exactly as it is, there are a lot of people to vote for. But if you believe that it's impossible for most people to afford California and that we need to stand up for working people, then honestly I'm the only game in town, which I find ironic too that the billionaire is fighting for working people and the career politicians are fighting for billionaires. I find that ironic, but it happens to be true We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back Economy never stops shifting. Markets move, global trade gets disrupted, and policies shift All these factors have a tremendous influence on the ways we live and work I'm Kimberlyee Adams, host of Marketplace Morning Report, a daily ten minute podcast where a team of award winning reporters helps you make sense of our evolving economy Listen to Marketplace Morning Report on your favorite podcast app tough equation for anyone to need to solve. In the sense that yes, it is very important that San Francisco and California remain engines of innovation, right? That the people leading these companies stay, that the companies themselves stay, right? I mean, we've seen some technology companies. Tesla comes to mind as one example that have relocated out of California. I can't imagine that is something you would want to see continue. So it's how to tain that sort of innovation edge right? which is what so many of the people who are opposed to this act say that California will lose its edge when it comes to innovation and invention because people will go elsewhere How do you preserve that while also creating a more egalitarian society, a more egalitarian order in California I don't envy anyone trying to solve that dilemma, but do you worry about losing The tech billionaires, right? Do you worry about losing the companies I want to make sure that we remain the center of innovation I want to make sure We remain place where the companies that are changing the world gone. grow and stay. Absolutely In my mind, the reason that California is what it is is and you know, you work at Wired magazine, Kate so I'm sure you I run wired magazine, Tom You do? I sure do. Yeah. Do you know Katrina Harren the only other woman who's ever run it. O friend of mine. Oh wow You didn't know that? No, I did know she was your friend, but I know that she is the only other woman other than me who's ever run it in thirty three years She's an old friend, but that's eside the point I remember back in the tech wreck two thousand, two thousand two and I was talking to an old friend of mine who's Venture capitalist And he said, the stocks come and go technology, the innovation, the, you know, the real creativity. happens hereB. And I said, Well, why is that? he said, takeake a look. There's not happening anywhere else. I said, tellell me what? And he said You want to start a tech company in the Bay Area You have your choices of CFOs You have your choices of CTOs. You have your choices of all the different things. Anyplace else you don't This is the place where there's actually the human capa That's the key part of this You can't build these companies because companies are built around people and as long as we have the you know, the ecosystem of people that You know it? That's really the secret sauce and that's why I'm such a maniac about making sure we have this great higher education system, that's why I'm up big believer. I think immigrants have built California, I love immigration to California. I want people to come here who want to You know work their tails off and really change the world. So To a very large extent, do I I'm upset though someone who comes here and really takes advantage of a great system that as I said, people have worked on for a thousand years and thinks that they did it by themselves That's not true If that were true, you could go over to Slovenia and start a company and see how that goes On the subject of immigrants, you have publicly called for abolishing ice. California, of course, is a sanctuary state. So that puts you potentially right at the center of a fight with the federal government, coming back again to President Trump How do you make sure California maintains its sanctuary status if you're elected governor? How do you go head to head with the federal government on this I think we enforce our state laws you know, we have to prosecute people who racially profile in the state of California. It is illegal prosecute people who use violence against people of California and including the people who send them to do violence. We have to inspect The detention centers because clearly they're closed for a reason. There's something going on there that they don't want you to see and we need to see that. We need to have a legal defense fund for people who've been kidnapped into those detention centers and people are under threat of deportation because this is a legal system People need to be represented And so to a very large extent, it is about You know, the job of the goovernment of California at some level is standing between violence and danger Unfairness and the people of California And you know, if you look at my campaign, it's very much about there's a you know, we have electric monopolies that charge twice as much as the rest of the United States pays for electricity. Someone has to stand up for the Californians in that fight someone who's in a position power You know, And certainly with ice, I do think it's a criminal organization. I think it was designed to be criminal. There's no other reason for them to be wearing face masks. There is no other reason for them to be carrying ARs. and they feel they can do it with impunity. It's very clear. agents in Minnesota, don't think they're ever going to go to jail for shooting on for shooting Americans. How much can you prosecute Iice agents, for example, while Trump is still in office and the agency is still intact I believe that the next president whoever he or she may be will be centered enough to recognize that you're not supposed to have a violent mask assault rifle armed secret police going around the United States with impunity. would think That seems to me to be an absolutely clear point that only despotic regimes do that stuff And the idea that we should somehow negotiate with that or cooperate with that. I pushed really hard for us to be a sanctuary state that no police No police officer is supposed to cooperate with ICCcept with regard to violent criminals And it makes total s what they are doing is clearly wrong You know, we've moved to a place in our political discourse where the willingness to stand up and say, no, this is just completely wrong. is much reduced. There are so many things that are wrong that people just now accept I don't want to do That is not what California stands for. That is not our values. And I think it's very clear California can be and I believe it should be promoting a different vision of success, of democracy, of freedom. My whole point about shared prosperity is that we have a responsibility to each other. I want to make sure we talk about AI, which is obviously a huge topic for us here at Wired. And I think certainly for the current governor of California and whoever comes next will be a major issue. to get right. California is still a hub for obviously quite a bit of innovation, obviously for artists and creators, right? You're also talking about Hollywood in that picture beyond just the tech industry. I'm curious about where you see the governor's role to be around creating Safeguards around AI, to protect creators for one, but to protect jobs bigger picture in the state. How are you thinking about that Let me say this AI obviously has some stuff going on with it, which I'm sure you're familiar with which are incredibly mind bllowing. It's an incredible technology. Absolutely. Highly consequential. ye. And I think the outcome will either be incredibly important or staggeringly important. That's the range it's kind of way Nobody really knows which of those two things it will be, but it will be one of those two things But I think it's really important to have safeguards around this. In multiple ways, I mean the obvious one is for kids Like this is an incredible powerful technology. and I think we need safeguards for kids because Its ability to seduce kids. into things that are not good for them when they're not in an age to be able to make those decisions. So protecting kids, I think, is really important testing the models before they're released You know, I think we went through this whole thing with this model from anthropic where it's like they said, we're going to do a very limited release because this is too powerful If we give this right out right now, then peopleeople with malign intent can use it to do things and we know that So it's important to make sure that it's controlled in that way, but also not to release models that are have not been tested, We can't be sure work, blah, blah. So that's two And then I think the most important part about this is we don't know what the impact of this will be on And so I've said, look, I want AI to be a tool for workers, not a replacement of workers But I'm aware and I think anyone who reads the papers know, I say to everybody, it's not like AI is coming AI here They is having a huge impact right now. It's sort of like saying Let's wait to the twenty first century and see what happens. We're in twenty twenty six, dude. We're in the twenty first century And what I've said is we need to make sure that we are protecting workers. And we've made a guarantee our campaign has made a guarantee that every worker displaced by AI, we will succeed in getting a well paid job with benefits. And how are we going to do that Look In the nineteen seventies and eighties, the traditional Midwestern businesses including cars. suddenly got foreign competition and suddenly had technological changes and it hollowed out those cities and they've never come back. And I think there were promises from politicians about what they do about it didn't happen And so I believe We need to be ahead of that cared with kind of ability to people into new jobs with training, specific jobs. There are a lot of jobs in California that we need people into those jobs and do it in a way so that when you sign up, you have a training program and at the end of it is actually a job with an actual wage and an actual place. That's something that I think is going to be a critical part for the next government. How big a part depends on whether it's Amazingly big or astonishingly big, R. Right, of course. And if you're listening and you're curious for more about that proposal, Wyred actually covered it McKenna Kelly, if you want to look up the writer on that proposal, I'm curious about California to you In the context of the national conversation around AI, to what extent is the way California handles AI and the way an incoming governor decides to regulate the industry and the technology a roadmap for the rest of the country I want California to be a roadmap for the rest of the country and everything because I think I disagree so strongly with what's going on in Washington, D.C I want us to succeed, but I also want to show the world. We don't have to be despotic people who take pride in their cruelty in the United States of America, That's not what our country stands for and that in fact, we have a much better angel and that we can succeed at a level in terms of creating a better society that people apparently don't think is possible. And it is absolutely possible. And that's exactly why I'm running for governor is to say, we can create this society right now All right, another quick break here and we'll be back with our favorite game Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, the global fashionews and Features director and co host of Vogue's podcast The Run Through Each week on the show, our listeners get an all access pass to the world of Vogue with the latest fashion news and the most exciting voices in the industry On Tuesdays, join me to hear interviews with influential leaders in the industry like Calvin Kleine, Daniel Roseberry, and Jonathan Anderson On Thursdays, join headad of editorial content at Vogue Chloe Maal and headad of editorial content at British Vogue, Cho Minaoti, as they explore style and culture through the lens of fashion with guests like Martha Stewart, Kamala Harris, and Tracy Ellis Ross The run through with Vogue, new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts I want to end with a little game if you're up for it The game is called, o, it sounds like you are good. The game is called contontrol.. The game is called Control Alt Delete We play it with every guest and I want to know what piece of technology would you love to control? What piece would you love to alt, so alter or change? And what would you love to delete? What would you love to vanquish from the earth if given the opportunity Two of them are easy I want to think about one of them. So delete. I want to end the ability to transport liquefied natural gas. That is very specific. Please explain a little bit more Explain that one a little bit more. we know Natural gases. The gas. It is.. So traditionally it has been a local thing so that the United States, the cost of Natural gas is something like I didn't look at it this morning, but it's probably somewhere around three dollars eighty five cents a thousand cub feet just to put it in context. In Europe, it's probably seventeen dollars Same thing It's a local market. They don't have it. We have a lot of it And there's a move basasically build huge terminals. build special ships. to basically turn natural gas into a liquid put it onto a ship. It's a whole complicated technology and people are spending tens of billions of dollars on it LNG is dirtier than coal Where do you want that money going instead Please delete. I wanted to go into this stuff that is cheaper, faster and better I wanted to go into Clean electricity, battery development, the batteries are getting so much cheaper and so much better. I want it to go into pushing us towards all the uses of electricity that we can use it for If you take a look at where we are in the natural world critical that we get rid of the idea that fossil fuels are cheap. Fossil fuels aren't cheap Fossil fuels withithout any cost for old fashioned particulate pollut or climate change are much more expensive than clean energy They're just The thing we have The one I alt. Yep I would alt And I'm saying this, I think we need to have a relationship with AI where we make sure that as it explodes done in a way so that we don't get the second order effects that can be really dramatically taed And you know, everyone's like, Ohh, no, no, you're gonna stifle it. Well I'm curious. I mean, I'm sure you hear that from a lot of people. You're running to be the governor of California. the innovation question, the race againainst China question. how do you respond to that when when you talk about guardrails and regulation We're not going to stifle it I'm a very practical person. You know, let's take a look at what happened with social media We didn't do anything and take a look at where we are and take a look at where the kids are I'm old enough to remember Democrats told Wall Street they could police themselves. It was sort of like Really That's your idea Stroke the idea fit Things that have immense impact can be controlled by the people whose total focus is their bottom line seems to me to be like, okay, so you're saying government doesn't exist Obviously we need to You know, m watch out for negative outcomes and avoid them for the people of California and the United States Do doesnn't mean stifling innovation.