Cultivating Micro Joys and Novelty

Welcome to Unfuck Your Brain. I'm your host Cara Loenthal, master certified coach and founder of the School of New Feminist Thoughts I'm here to help you turn down your anxiety, turn up your confidence, and create a life on your own terms, one that you're truly excited to live. Let's go Okay, my friends, I am really excited for today's interview with now, of course literally anytime I introduce someone new, I read how to pronounce their name. I'm like, I got it And I get on the screen or the mic and I immediately start being like, oh my Godd, I'm gonna do it wrong.ike it's just your brain. The brain never stops. So this is Kate Bowler. Is that right Got it right. Okay Kate is a I don't even know how many bestsellers you've written. like was like seventy three, like is a bestselling author times a million. But I really love her work because it is just like, I think the antidote to so much of the toxic positivity, spiritual gaslighting, blah blah blah, stuff that we all know we do not tolerate on this podcast but it is a big part of women's support space in the world. Anyway. So I'm so excited, Dr. Kate. But first we have to do the gauntlet we make everyone do where we make women brag about themselves Because more women should brag about themselves. So Kate, please brag about yourself. tellell us who you are and what you do in the most bragging, impressive way possible. Okay, Carl, this is hard as a woman and as a Canadian. This is going and as a men a knite who is my the sweet and humble, just find me scraping the ground where I belong I am a professor at Duke University. I teach cultural history in particular, like religious stories about how We tell ourselves what we deserve in terms of health, wealth and happiness. So I'm very niche in that I have interviewed most televangelists in this country, which is a lot of fun I have written five New York Tes bestestsellers and eight books. so I write a lot of books and I've got a podcast I really love called Everything Happens. Not everything happappens for a Reason. justust everything happppens. pereriod But lately, my deep love is I've got a great community on Substack and it's just full of kindind smart people who are into education and over the culture warring, I think So I know that you have been through a lot in the last ten years You have had, let me see if I get these all right, Stge four cancer diagnosis, chronic pain, and then figuring out what life looks like after that crisis. And you have written in some ways that like the crisis was easier to deal with than what came after the crisis. And I'd love for you to talk about that because I think partly because I'm so often coaching women who are sort of like, well, I just I got to get through this and then like everything's going to be easy. If I just solve this problem, then it'll all be easy. I'll deal with my health or my well being after work slows down, obbviously work is not the same as the stage four cancer crisis. But I just think this sort of like that human like I'm just going get to the next thing or after this, then I'll be transported to The fairy tale land where everything's always wonderful. So I'd love to hear about that experience Sure, I do think there's two versions we get. One is we have a future forecasting of a perfect self who seems great and she's really good going on. I' love to her. She is incredible. Or we've got this nostalgic back to before self As someone who has had, I'm on my ninth belly button after many abdominal surgeries, like there is this glamorized version of like, I will I just have to I have to bounce back to get back to before. And I think lookingoo to the past and to the future doesn't give us enough cultural language for the achiness we experience now as a kind of hunger. And I think this is a place where both of our work really intersects is how women experience that hunger And I just found as a historian, there's very little cultural language for what I call the ach is this this kind of bittersweet longing that acts like an engine. It can be, if harnessed well, like a very powerful engine inside of us. but normally What we're doing is we're like holding the dager from the wrong end. And we're just like using it to tell ourselves a story that we shouldn't we shouldn't be hungry, we shouldn't feel. Like there's some missing piece, but I think it's just important for us all to know that this achiness inside of us, I love the German word for it. Zensuk, It's like this bittersweet longing And that the longing isn't like a glitch in the system, it's a fabric of our humanity. So if we start there, I think we can begin with a more honest place than, wow, I wish I should have been better by now or let me just get back to before I love that we didn't plan this, but I literally just recorded an episode like two hours ago in the same studio session called the human void because that's what I call it is like that you are always going to have that void, but it's not there's ae is a much nicer term.' like I'm a little more in your face which I like that about you though, on your own brand. But but there's the problem is we're constant trying to fill the void, right? We're like I'm gonna put this thing in the void, I'll put that thing in the void if I this if I do that, if I have this relationship, if this person changes, if I look different, like I'm finally going to be able to fill the void, But the void is like a black hole. You can never fill the void. You know, I think the thing that we are both teaching with these different words is like you have to accept the void. It's just partart of being human is to be eternally dissatisfied I'm curious what you see, though When they see this interview, they'll just heard my whole opinion about how you deal with the void. But for you, like for the ache, whether it's in your personal life or just as you think about it conceptually, like what do you think changes when able to just accept that like no thing we do or thing we can get or like there is no making this go away. What happens when happens? Yeah. And I had a couple different versions of that story I was struggling with. One is I'm a historian I teach at the university, but I also teach in the Divinity schoolch where I teach pastors. and These are people who go out and talk to people in the most tender and difficult transition moments in their life. And I think one story that we've all heard a lot is a faithful person of almost any religious persuasion is a peaceful and satisfied person who has no missing pieces and that like God will ultimately fill every missing piece. And I will just say our marketing on that is poor because it's not Augusty and know. Exactly. I am a big fan of the Lord by God, but I will say that like sef is solving every problem is not really on the list. Imagining that as unfaithful is not a helpful story. I think imagining it as being a bad woman is also very mean, I think that we in that version have accepted the cultural narrative a woman's job is to basically become a professional happiness manager is to run around and make sure that nobody else around us feels missing pieces, any aches, and it's our job to immediately look into the eyes of everyone who's ever loved us and be like, Do you want a snack? Do Is the air temperature okay? I putting your void for you? How can I fill it for you? Exactly. I will fill your void. You will never be a hungry, hungry hippo again Yeah, I think a story about being a bad faithful person, a bad woman. For me, it also landed on that am I a bad cancer survivor. I mean, shouldn't someone who's lost so much Just be so grateful. that nothing could ever cause me to say that I am empty ever again and I think one of the weirdest parts about continuing to live is that you realize that this hunger persists and to name it not a deficiency, but to name it life itself I actually think And this is, I think another place where our work really is very similar is I don't think I would have become a feminist had I not really been facing a life limiting illness. is because it was only when I couldn't say, oh, I can just run around meeting everyone's needs. Don't worry there'll always be more. When I had to say, this is limited. I only have a certain amount Would it be still okay if I could call this mine And that honestly is what made me a feminist That's so powerful. I want to talk about that. This is maybe a little side tangent. I think it's important. It's wild the way that women's socialization operates such that the minute you get a new identity, like cancer survivor, the first thing you start worrying about is am I doing it wrong? It's like I just don totally agree This just became a new thing. First thing I need to think about is how I'm probably doing it wrong. shame Right. That's just like such a I like of chills. That's just such a good illustration of how changing your circumstance won't change your brain. L right? L we're socialized so deeply that literally you're facing a life threatening illness and your brain is like, you know, we should really think about, I don't know if you're performing this identity correctly. You should probably feel bad about that on top of everything else. That self surveillance that women are socialized into is just so deep. It just makes me imagine you'd be like I don't know, like right the victim of some other trauma, like in a war being like, am I being a bad prisoner of war right now? Should I be like like I feel like that is the insanity of our brains. I like that so much. I'm positive that that's true. Right. I think there was a video crew following me for the first month of my catastrophic illness, you would have thought that I was starring in a reality show about a woman who gets cancer, but it's like pretty grateful for it.. And She's just learning lessons left right and center. Right. J I'm making the most of this. she's not devastated? It's not at all, right? She's totally in control. I'm imagining like a woman who is a zombie being like, am I even eating these brains the right way? Should I be More into brains Okay, let's talk about this thing you said about The found I think that's so fascinating and that's such a like different women based on whatever's happening in their life hit the point at different times, but like most people hit the point at some point of being like, oh, this is unsustainable Right? Like I am not able to continue trying to fill everyone else's void But I would love to hear like how did that lead you to feminism? know, there's like an implicit way it makes sense but I would just love to hear you talk a little bit more about what was that like for you? Like Was that an identity that you had previously been like, I'm neutral on? or like, oh, I'm definitely not that I would just love to hear about that. Yeah. I think I'd always thought intellectually, I understand feminism and I am on board. I we should be able to vote like yes, pro. Well also, you know, Being Canadian, I think we just have a more humane default sy pes. you know, my mom was really a role model for me because she was the first woman tenured at her institution. She became a professor of music at the University of Manitoba. and I watched what it cost her to grow up with virtually no expectation that she would go to college and then to get a PhD and then to try to create maternity policies and to try to realize that there's not an institutional commitment to you as a woman, even if you make commitments to it. I saw how fulfilling and difficult it could be. to reach for things that would then be quite painful. And so when I went on my own PhD journey, I really thought, o, I'm just walking a path that's been paved before not realizing, of course, that I would be the first woman to get pregnant at my own institution. I've to have to make my own maternity policies and It's still not a very common thing to be a woman in that field. But it really wasn't until I was very sick and the immediate assumption was, well, if you only really have a year max to live, shouldn't you just drop everything and just be at home with your family And that sounds like a wonderful thing If there is not this churn inside, this like desire to have a pure separate space for one's own brain to create And so when I really thought this would be like my last Christmas and my last, I had a choice. I could stay at home all the time wrapped in blankets and having meaningful conversations. O I could spend part of my day writing a hilariously niche book evangelical lady celebrities that would go on to sell five hundred library copies. And I knew it wasn't a book that people would read. It was a conversation I had with a couple of my colleagues who could see how torn I was and they said , you keep trying to make everything add up. But even if the worst thing happens and they pointed we were in like a library and pointed all of the like work around, as they said, even if the worst things happens The people who love you can still find you here. And they gestured to my work And I thought, what a soulful way to be able to return to vocation with a new language, with a new category and a new commitment to myself that actually it's watching women try that is the fundamental Uh really like story behind feminism and to allow them the freedom to do so. and that I would have never allowed myself that freedom That's so interesting because I think sometimes there's like this well meaning advice that's like people on their death bed often regret they didn'tnd time with their family and they regret they spnd on work and all of that. But I've always sort and obviously like I love my family and I do want to spend time with them. but I've always felt like, yeah, but I think that those people were like accountants at a firm doing work they didn't care about, right? Like yeah, I think I would regret it if I worked to the point that my husband was like, we're getting divorced because I never see you or something, right? But like meaningful work can be a big, meaningful part of your life and the idea that that work just gets lumped into this one big category. And then as you're saying, of course, it would be like, well, if you only have so much time to live, you want to be with your family. And you might be like Well, yes, some of the time, my brain and my creative work and my like purpose, all of those things are still very important to me and I'm not It's not like, oh, because I've reached potential death, now I return to my essential nature as a woman and I like stay in the home And that's such also a fantasy as if you'd be like, if I were in the house in a blanket for a year, my husband, I would be having many more fights than meaningful conversations because I would be losing my mind. No I didn't want to be eclipsed by something I didn't choose and that would prevent me from having any of the qualities that actually you can't just have, you have to nurture. Like for me, it's curiosity or like rigorous thinking, like I need words on a page. I can't just ex Nilo have thoughts like that. And so what I ended up doing was and I know this is so weird, but was so I was at the Atlanta Cancer Center. It was the Winship Cancer Center for really long time, almost two years, and I had to go once a week. So I started scheduling interviews with lady celebrities at the hospital and they would come to the hospital and I would like and they'd come to my lokeemo area and I'd say, than you so much for coming and I would interview them What did like the chemo nurses think was happening? Like Oh my gosh, they loved it. They're like actuallyually one of them we werere still really good friends. We've been on vacation together and they were like, wow, you held office hours. I have like such a stereotype of a little evangelical lady in my brain right now. Like I'm just imagining the like big hair and high heels and just being like into this area, which I'm sure is not really what was going on So after you got through that crisis, how did you sort of mentally think about or cope with that experience of like Oh, I guess it's not going to be crisis then over. and then like what was that like for you It was difficult to realize that that ache, that void we've been talking about still persisted and that it would require than and this is why I became of very interested in our happiness culture, like So then am I supposed to just go back to a kind of happiness, knowing that happiness, just psychologically speaking, is not just like, oh, positive feelings Hainess is like a sense of ease. It's the accumulation of nice things going your way. That's because the word happiness comes from the word happ like happstance So happiness is what happens to you when things are adding up. And I was like, well, if I don't think I'm going to end up having a kind of life where I can regularly be that happy And I still have this constant ache. so Beautiful thing. And this is just something that I am really passionate about is like cultural myth busting. And then also what beautiful thing can we still expect in a life that isn't always happy. And that's part of what got me so interested in all the research I did about Joy If you've been dreaming or secretly thinking about becoming a coach But you're not sure how it works or how to coach a range of people effectively, or if coaching is even a real job. Or if you're already certified, but you still feel a little shaky in sessions, especially if something sensitive comes up My life coaching certification, the Socratic coaching method, was built for you We teach evidence based coaching tools that combine radical inquiry and working with the emotions in the body to create lasting change. So you can coach with confidence, whether you're brand new or ready to fill the gaps your first training may have skipped This seven month certification program includes intensive training and foundational coaching skills Also topic specific training on things like money, relationships, habits and career, plus live practice and feedback. so you're not just learning, you're actually doing and improving in real time We'll also dive into trauma, the nervous system and neurodiversity and how those things affect coaching If you've been getting the sense you're meant for this work And if you're feeling that way, you are We will help you become world class at it To learn more, visit Socraticoaching. com or text your email to plus one three four seven nine nine seven one seven eight four and use the code word coach training, all one word To get the link, we' send it straight to your phone Yeah, I would love to hear about that. I think in that same episode about the Human Void, I talked about the distinction that I usually make, which I think is like related, but doesn't fully map onto this about happappiness as like a philosophical alignment in your life and happiness as like a fleeting emotion that happens to you and that we conflate them, right? So it's like you might be living a life that is aligned with your values, where you're doing meaningful work, you have relationships with people who love you. L you are fulfilling your purpose for being here as a human, but then you feel like irritated at your husband. you're like, well, I'm not happy. So maybe all of these choices are wrong and I need to like change them all, right as opposed to like No, I love that etymology of like happiness is happenstance. It's like I teach it as your thoughts causing it, but it's like either way, that's a fleeting emotion that you can't rely on or like spend your whole life trying to No So I'd love to hear it feels like you're introducing another concept in terms of talking about joy asparate from happiness. So how do you differentiate between those? and why do you think that's an important distinction I think that you're entirely right that the best version of happiness is that you can create a through line between your circumstances and your values and that even if you're not always having a positive feeling at that time, that you can kind of see that through line I think also it points to the fact that happiness being an accumulation context, like small nice things going your way or the promotion, the relationship that you always wanted lovely things that we hope for. and sometimes we get these whole seasons in the sun where our life just really does go our way I do think you're also pointing the fact that like our happiness culture can be very fragile. And I think that's what a good vibes culture is. The ugly side of it is because it's so fragile, because it's a really ajena tower of nice things happening to you, one wrong move and it can just knock the whole thing over And it really sets apart then the difference between happiness, and joy Joy is not relaxing like happiness is. Joy is like a big Great enlivening feeling. It feels like you're startled awake And while happiness is kind of slow math it builds up with nice things happening, joy is a moment. It's a moment in which There's lots of kind of like descriptions of it. They really touch on like existential things. It feels like our soul says yes. It affirms our goodness. Yes, it's good to be alive. And because it hits our dopamine, our reward system, it's so wonderful, but it also engages our stress system, which is so honestly very weird. Re awesome. It's so interesting. So while you can't be happy and sad at the same time, you can be joyful and sad, which is a super neat trick And it really helps explain why you can be going through a very difficult time. So like for me in the hospital or you could be at a funeral and the pastor mispronounces your mom's name for the fourth time. and the first time it was Weir And then the second time you started to feel the twitches. And then by the fourth, you've got like silent tears streaming down your face because it's so hilarious and she would have loved it. and you could hate yourself for like laughing in that moment. But it surprises us because joy is something we can't engineer And I just think that's a nice relief to know that we can hope for happiness, we can hope for things going our way. But when we can't, We can know that we can still be completely interrupted by joy, which can take us from zero to one hundred s so important because a lot of feel like a lot of the coaching I do ends up being trying to convince people that they maybe don't know for sure exactly how they're going to feel forever in the future R? Like there's like such a desire to be sure about the future that it's like your brain would rather be like, nope, I'm positive. You are going to be miserable forever rather than like admit that there could be that surprise of joy. And I wonder if you experience either in yourself or just when you have these conversations, I think A lot of women who are there's just a lot of people who are sort of hyper vigilant, right are like unwilling to let themselves experience happiness or joy or like any positive emotion because of that like fear of the other shoe falling And I wonder how you think about that, especially as somebody who has had some like pretty unpleasant surprises happening to you. Yes, not all surprises are good. R They' true. No. And I think when Too many bad things have happened because we are prediction making coherence, seeking, pattern recognizing machines We like to anticipate a future that we've already had and always want to prepare for, and for most of us, it's negative a friend experiences a tragedy and then all of a sudden we're just quietly rehearsing how we would manage the same situation does become very difficult, and I do think, especially for women to imagine Joy as a surprise that will be An enormous relief Here's the expectation that would change if you thought that joy was going to happen to you First of all, You'd have to Let go predicting that every horrible thing is inevitable you would have to probably surrender a little bit of because one of the great joy killers is not sadness, as we know, because it can still coexist with sadness It's actually routine efficiencycy and I think what you're naming this, hyper prediction in which nothing can get in an unsurprisable person And I know we don't want to be surprised because we're scared and being scared makes us very brittle If we could let go of that just for a second I think what we would find is that we can look for joy in a couple ways. One will it touches gratitude because it will make us say thank you. So next time you find yourself saying thank you in your heart, just notice if something brought you joy The second, it makes us hopeful because that's the voice that has to shout down despair and fear and every bad thing is always going to happen. of course, it happens to me. But the thing I really want for women is that it inspires delight. and we are not used to being delighted. It hits our weird wiring because it doesn't come standard issue. Like Joy is not The way I picture it is like a horrible Meada night Christmas where're like everybody gets the same pair of tube socks and you get tube socks and you get tube socks. I'm like you don' Nobodybody gets the same present when it comes to joy. Joy has to be able to light you up in your absurd specificity And I think because we don't usually want to let people know what lights us up And we don't want to be able to expect anything except the worst. It does make joy a little harder to break into some people's houses. break into your house. That' great. Joy is like I'm get in there with me. Don't think I won't If you talk about microjoys, I'd love to hear more about that because I think maybe that's a little more accessible for people who are listening to this and are just like, I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know get to this house. What are you talking about Especi to everybody who listens to me or they're all, you know, like myself little control freaks who listen to this podcast because they're like, I'm going to create my feelings with my thoughts. So the idea that they're going to be surprised by joy be very distressing to them. So I totally hear you. I agree. And they do you know, it happens in big moments, right? like babies and weddings and whatever but And as long as we don't think that these are guarantees anything that loosens us up a little bit and reintroduces delight is going to make room for joy. So that's why people love dance parties and they love singing louder than they planned to and they like impulse buying something that reminds them of when they were a kid like things that return us to a feeling of like It's almost got a naive tae to it because the feeling of joy and just we can pay attention to is that everything matters For this second, everything's lovely And so if we can look for it in The little dance person who really makes you laugh Just know, that's not just like the happiness math where we're trying to like, great no buy two hundred of them. to hang out with this person every Thursday. So guarantee Make it into a system. So as long as we let go of our robot self for a second, just Notice the small delights And then try to imagine that you're the kind of beautiful person These things can continue for it to happen to Carl Bart said Joy is a surprise, right? It's a gift but it's also a task. Like if we treat it like it's a personality trait that we can cultivate, I think we can sort of carve out more space so it's like joy like a little butterfly can land It's making me think about the way in which so many of the women who like listen to this podcast or work with me or whatever, they really want to have more presence in their lives, but they're doing the thing that creates the exact opposite of that which is right constantly trying to like plan and maximize and Joy maxers like y it'ences maxing. Like they're trying to like optimize or ruminate their way there whatever, right? And like the whole So there's just there's something that seems to me connected between the idea like in order to know you're experiencing joy, you have to be present like joy is happening in your body, it's an experience, like whether it's in your soul as well, if you believe in a soul, but it's like a thing that is it doesn't come just from thinking about something, right? Its like comes from being present in your life having an experience. And something I've been thinking a lot about recently is novelty and like how novelty impacts your brain as I get older, I think, and I'm more like in a routine and like I now know who I'm going marry because I've already done that. And I like know where I'm going to live. And you know's like like there's less of these big questions of like Who knows I'm going out on a Thursday and maybe this person is my partner or maybe I'm gonna li move to Morocco So I've been thinking novelty in the way that novelty like impacts memory formation and changes how we experience time. That's why I like the first Day of your vacation feels a million hours long and by the last day goes by really fast because you're like more used to it now. It's not as novel. And so that's There's something love that. There's here that seems like they're connected. Yeah. And one like exercise sometimes I ask people to do is if you just imagine your predictive life like your zig in your zig, just you have your regular zigs could be a small zeg. what introduces a small surprise, a small novelty? that it is because you're right. like it restores an experience of time and attention back to you As long as we don't use those things as yet another doer self robust self maximized self. But that's what's so great is you can't, I don't think. Like the way you're describing it, it's like you can't operationalize joy. You can like create conditions that would allow it to maybe flourish a little bit more, like bring your awareness to it, but you can't be like I have my vitamins and then I do my peloton and then I have my joy moment. Exactly. eight hundred seven. I experienceced trans joy for three minutes. And then it's time to do my emails. I think that's why joy isn't just a positive emotion. It's a story that we have to tell ourselves. And the story is It is good Not just for somebody else, but it is good for you to be alive Your life is not just worth living is worth loving because you have an enormous capacity to be fully alive And just letting yourself like just it feels like just letting your guard down For me, the reason I felt that to be such a relief is I am such a doer. L I will make a system and a plan for everything But it was in my worst moments and frankly, my worst behavior where I was like scp this. I hate everybody. I don't want to do. like nothing I did worked, exhaustion and heartbreak It was in moments like that that I've experienced Really like in the hospital in weird moments, I have felt visited by joy and that created belief belief is the story that our lives are still There's a voice that can for a moment silence our fear and our despair And I think partly why this is so precious to me is I grew up with a very, very depressed dad. I have had a lot of bouts of depression in my own life. I know what diseases of despair look like We sometimes get very fleeting images of what it would be like if we didn't feel that way. So when we get them, we have to treat it like a little miracle, like a little thing that reminds us that we are like capable of that kind of delight And we won't always get a lot of reminders, but when we do, we just have to be able to say that. That was joy And I think part of what's beautiful about this is It is supposed to be fleeting. It's by its nature fleeting, right? I think part of the reason it's like we don't want to let it in because then what if we can't make it last? There's sort of a I think that if you can accept that All emotions are transient, right? Like where often I feel like people learn about emotions, they're like, okay, cool. So I'm definitelys try to let allow my negative emotions, Th those can go away. But get to keep the positive ones, right?ike No, they're actually all transient But I think there's something about like If you can stop believing, you're supposed to always feel that way, then you can allow that it will be the surprise. It will come up, and then it will go. It's fleeting. It's like a rainbow or I don't know, whatever, a butterly, right? Not only cannot be predictor control, but it's not er I think it's like almost like people don't want to like I don't want to let myself feel good because then I'll be disappointed. when I stop feeling good But if you just disbelieving ahead of time that you're not supposed to always feel good. It's actually very freeing. People find it depressing. But if you get to the other side of that, it's freeing, right? Because then when it comes, you're like What a beautiful visitation. And then when it leaves, you're like, right, of course, it wasn't ever supposed to stay I totally agree I totally agree. And then you can also use that information to judge people who say, I'm joyful all the time. And you're like, you're not. A You've had a stroke. Actually, you're having medical emergency and you should get that looked at. So I know you have a new book out. Can you tell folks a little bit about the book and of course where to find it? Oh sure. The book is called Joyful Anway And it's about this Discovery, it's my research and personal kind of memoir around trying to discover joy. It's weird qualities, how strange and mysterious, the ways to kind of put yourself in the way of joy. and I think the first part of it too is just about how to sort of find your way through someome of the obstacles that stand in the way before we can be somebody who screams, Choose joy on the internet. Which we all aspire to do. It is a job all of us should have. Jous joy. Thank you so much. So everyone, obviously go buy Kate's book. You don't get five New York Times bestestsellers by not being a good author. So go buy her book. Where can people find you as well? Stubstack, it sounds like you've got a sububstack I do. I've got a great community on Substack and I'm on Instagram and socials at Kate Siebeler. Amazing. Thank you for coming on today. This was really a lot of fun A moment of joy in fact Whether you're dreaming about becoming a coach or just secretly thinking about it, or if you're already certified, but you worry you're not saying the right things in sessions or clients aren't having the breakthroughs you'd hoped for that I have got an exciting announcement for you. We are officially opening enrollment for our next cohort of the Socratic Coaching method certification This seven month certification program includes intensive training and plenty of space for practice and integration. We've got coach prracticome calls, live coaching feedback sessions, and more. To learn more, visit socraticoaching dot com or text your email to one three four seven nine nine seven one seven eight four and the code word is coach training, all one word. We will send you the link to join straight to your phone