Mike Markkula and Apple Incorporation

Welcome back, everybody to Design in California. When we last left you, we dropped you up in nineteen seventy six America's bicentennial I'm Jason Snell Joined across the pond by One of our old foes in the UK. Why are we doing this? Mike Hurlely? Why is this what we're doing? It's a seventeen seventy six thing. Don't worry about it. So it is nineteen seventy six. American patriotism is at its peak. but also computer industry is being born. When we last left you in nineteen seventy six, Steve Jobs had tried to shop Apple around to lots of different companies Ineffectively, perhaps it was the smell or the bare feet Perhaps it was that nobody really valued two kids in their garage with a computer turnown. Commodore before they could turn him down for his kind of ridiculously overhyped request for money. So it's all kind of hanging there. What are they going to do? Now we're going to back up just for a moment a little bit before Commodore came knocking on the garage door and talk about sort of like the beginning of the Apple two and the partnership. Okay. So was and Jobs fly to Phadelphia on TWA, an airline that no longer exists, but it does put us in the seventies mindset. Find a Philly. n route to Atlantic City on the Red Eye. Atlantic City is the home of a computer show called PC seventy six. And they're nervous because there's buzz around a competitor from a company called Pcessor Technology, who sounds very professional, which is funny when I tell stories from this era because you're like, yeah, but it's not to go well for them, is it? Be I've never heard of them They were very impressive. The computer is called the SAL. It's going to be announced. It is yet another company founded in a garage. This time it was a garage in Berkeley. Right. So in the east Bay and not the South Bay byy members of the Homebrew Club. So this goes back to what I was saying last time, right? L there were just a bunch of companies like Apple and they're all kind of like circling around at this time. Yeah. And so really any of them could have been the ones. Processor technology got money. Right? Like they unlike Apple, they had money. they hired a corporate sales staff. They had people in suits and stuff. Okay Just to set the stage here, I want to make sure that I got it correctly. So PC seventy six, this trade show, this actually happened before Commodore made the offer to them. I have to back us up a little bit to tell you about this Apple two part of it. I'm like a time traveler, Mike. We're gonna to love around a little bit. I' gonna have to move to get all these threads in order. This is the story, Jason. If it's a story, you can't just go chronologically. We've gota job. No no, it needs to be told in the order that you said that it needs to be told in. So Waz is designing the Apple two at this time, right? Like the Apple onene was his previous project. He moved on immediately, he knew all the things that could be better about Apple is still trying to move those Apple Oes, right? I said last time they didn't sell a lot of them. So they're going to go to this show and they're going to try to sell a bunch of Apple Oes Steve Jobs knows they need to be there. He knows they need to see the Sl because that is their competition a competition for whatever Waz is working on next. and they're going to secretly show some people what the Apple two is going to do and how it's going to beat the soul. Okay. As far as we know This would be their first trade show, their first something like this. I think so. I think this is their first anything that resembles a trade show at all. The Homebrew C computer Club was probably, I mean, there maybe were like clubs and stuff, but this is a real trade show. with buyers and all this kind of stuff. I mean, it's a hobbyist. Yeah. It's probably I would say think of it like a between like a flea market and like a hobbyist expo of like very niche parts. It's not business yet, but There's a lot of interest in this growing area. It was probably pretty shambolic, but for This era, it is the first trade show, I think that they show up at So guess who's on the flight? this TWA flight sitting right behind Steve Jobs and Steveosniak prorocessor technology. You made this ph. Okay They're all dressed in a corporate fashion. far more corporate than the Apple peopleeople, which is a very That' why I've established a very low bar. But their computer The song It looks like a real computer. It's got a keyboard and a motherboard. and a tape drive all in one metal case. It's a productized computer. So this is the only one. We touched on the only one before. We spoke a lot about the Commodore Pet, which came a little bit later. Yeah. This doesn't have a display. Okay. But it does have I mean, it's basically it's not what the Apple one was, which was a loose circuit board that you had to add stuff to. Okay. This is a buy this box, it comes in a metal case. It looks like a piece of industrial equipment and it's got the keyboard and the motherboard and your storage drive all together. All you have to do is hook it up power and a display and you're good to go. It looks like a product in a way that So many of these products, including the Apple One They just weren't products really. were They were part of a kid. This is a real product. But it feels like this is what people are shooting for at this time. trying to build a computer that was one box, essentially. This is the next step And everybody knows it. Steve Jobs certainly knows it. Waz says that he knew that it was processor technology behind them on this flight because of how they talked. He said to Walter Isaacson We could hear them talking in advanced business talk using business like acronyms we've never heard before. I will always love Steve Wozniak. And the reason is because I believe even at this point, Steve Wozniak doesn't know what any of these words mean. No. No. One of the prime movers behind the saul is Lee Fsenstein, who was the spiritual father of the Hbrew compomputer Club. Okay And he does a little peek over the seat to see what Jobs and Waz are doing and they're messing around with this computer mockup they have in a cigar box And Michael Morritz, who wrote the book Returned to a Little Kingdom described the protype as forlorn and savagely deformed. A printed circuit board screwed to a wooden base with wires sneaking between the chips. It was A loser. Haha Lee Fllenstein peeks over the seat. He sees the stupid forlorn computer in a cigar box Oh, we have a metal case on our computer. We have salespeople in suits. These guys are not a serious threat And by the way, that mockup is the Apple two It will destroy processor technology So you know, I amm aware of the Apple two. I know what it is, right? Like I've used one. I have a sense of understanding it I I'm looking forward as we go through this series to understanding exactly why it was so much better than everything else because it must have been so good. come from these kinds of beginnings and destroy products that ostensibly sound to me in the way that you describe them as just what the Apple twoI was. It is more technically advanced. We'll get into this in a moment. It is more technically advanced, but this is the story of Apple at this point, right? which is that they're so unpolished that nobody takes them seriously, even though what's actually happening is that their technology is incredible because Waz is a genius. And the first person who recognizes that is going to make a lot of money Right. The first person who recognizes the genius if they can recognize it before they go out of business. Yeah. will make a lot of money because they are super technically proficient thanks to WS, but they do not have their act together otherwise. Also just one last thing about the difference between seventies and today They were allowed to do that sitting on an airplane. Oh yeah. they had a thing in a cigar box with chips and wires, but if you got that out on the plane, you're going out the door. It doesn't matter. You put in a parachute and you're out of there. No. anythingything goes on these planes. So we get to Atlantic City, right? fly to Philly, go to Atlantic City New Jersey The show is not that interesting because all they have is the Apple One out on the show floor and they sell some of them, which is great This is Atlantic City before they brought in gambling and casinos. So it's super rund down and dilapidated The hotel that this event is in and that they're staying in has like holes in its walls and stuff. like it it sounds really bad. There are elderly people who live in this hotel. who are like watching these long haired hippie types in the elevators and in the hallways and they're like Who are they? Why are they here? It sounds like a complete I mean, it actually sounds kind of like a sitcom Forget about PC seventy six at night up in their hotel room Waz has hooked his Ale two up to the TV set in the room, which At least the hotel had a TV set in the room I thought and has it like spraying color graphics all over the streen. And again When I talk about the Commodore Pet, it didn't have color or graphics. Yeah. Apple two, color, graphics. And everybody who came into that room that they they let peek at what Apple was working on realized that they had something beyond what anybody else was doing And Jobs knew it and Wws knew it And this is the moment when Commodore came knocking on the garage door with a cowboy hat And Steve Jobs made his outrageous demands After seeing everybody's reactions and what they knew about what the Apple two prototype in a cigar box that looked forlorn. yes, yes They knew they were way ahead They weren't ahead in making it a product yet I think they knew that the Apple two was a next generation computer, if you will from what was coming out that that Saul was a nice computer and all And that Commodore pet ultimately would be too, but they lacked stuff that the Apple two was going to have and that that put them ahead. and I think That's why Steve Jobs made those outrageous demands to Commodore. Okay. And I think because Steve believed in this And was, I think, was always a little more self deprecating about it and didn't value himself as much actually led to possibly the biggest conflict the two of them ever had Now this is very interesting. So it feels like the perfect time. for us to take a quick break I think so. what will happen next to find out after the break Thank you so much for listening to this preview episode of Design in California. We hope you're enjoying it. We're outside Apple Park right now? We are. It's WWC weeek And so we've been getting together. We've been working real hard this week and all week we've been having people coming up to us congratulating us about the success we've had with the Kickstarter campaign. So we should thank you because you've made that happen for us. We are blown away with the success that we've had so far and it's enabling us to do so much for the show, right, Jason? Yeah, that's right. So we've got some stretch goals, we've got some big plans for the coming Ye of episodes and beyond honestly. And so yeah, at one hundred seventy five, we're going to add some more variations on our theme from Chris Breen. We're going to order some more original artwork. You haven't even seen the first original artwork. We haven't even seen some of the first original artwork That's something we're working on. And then at two hundred thousand dollars things get really crazy Yeah, we want to do An event, a designed in California event of some description in both San Francisco and London at some point probably in the first year of the show. Yeah. We're not sure what exactly what they're going to be yet. They will at least be meetubs I would like there to be at least one of those be a live show. but we've got a lot of work to try and work out how that's going to come to together. We've only been doing this for a week and a half. 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Fantastic. so People are aware of what Apple is building The word is getting out about the Apple two sllowly Yeah they're very slowly revealing to people that they've got something here, but they're still selling apppple ones. Commodes come knocking.. Steve Jobs made his demands then Steve says, you know what? forget about this Commodore We're not doing this. Yeah, they're shady. We're not going to go with them Just to remind everybody, Apple Computer Company is a partnership. It's not an incorporated company yet, as we talked about at the end of our Apple at fifty episode That didn't happen until ' seventy seven. It was a partnership registered april first, seventy six. and when Ron Wayne Got cold feed, he backed out of his ten percent tiebreaker share. It's fifty fifty between the two Stes Part of the agreement of the partnership. is that was owns the rights to his creations It's more of a marketing and distribution and productizing partnership than it is a full on intellectual property agreement. This is not a corporation that Waz has contributed his intellectual property to. And as a result, Waz owns his stuff. The stuff that Steve is trying to sell is owned by Waz. I don't think this was smart. As we're going to discover, I think that it was a smart move from Jobs in that it may have been the only way that he could have gotten Apple to happen Okay. that was was not prepared to be giving away the fruit of his labor, especially still kind of like dreaming about He's still working at HP. He's still dreaming about selling this to HP or someone else But you can also see the friction this might lead to. if Jobs is trying to sell the company for a lot of money, and it's a fifty fifty partnership But the underlying technology is really the greatest asset and that's owned by Waz. Steve Jobs has he earned the fifty percent? this point, Not at this point. Not yet. He will, but not yet. and that is part of the issue here. So. was again, He does his own thing, He follows his muse, he builds his technological creations But Over the last year, as they've been talking about what the Appleud is going to be 's been arguing with Steve Jobs. It's this push and pull between product visionary and a technical visionary about what the end results should be exppansion slots so that you can add cards later to a computer to make it do different things. Ww once eight of them Jobs once To of them. You'll never need more than two for a printer in a modem, I think he said Waz is like, no, no, no, no, no, it needs to be eight. Waz wins that argument by the way You can see Wh there might be tension between them Steve Jobs is kind of an assassin of J joy, right? It like V is like, I made this thing and And Steve's like, no, no, that's too many things I don't want that. He' becausecause there's a push and pull here was is floating free and inventing what he wants. And Steve Jobs, we know already at this point has some product sense and he's like, I don't want to do that. I do want to do this. And if there was pushing against that. You're maybe not used to having a partner who is going to push back on what you want to do with your technology and with your designs And then on top of that Steve Jobs is now standing in the way of the nice people at Commodore, Sady, but you know, the nice people at Commodore who maybe want to offer money for Waz's invention, but Steve overprices it and walks away and that even if they had gotten paid, Steve would take half the money. Do you think Wos saw it that way? Do you think that the money or Anything like this was something that bothered was to that degree I don't know. You know, Waz doesn't seem super money oriented, but at the same time, he's always had more money than God, basically since Apple was a success. And so maybe back then he was more concerned about it. Maybe the money is more of a symbol of ownership as opposed to actually what it buys you. I think it's pride. I think it's he is the creator and he has inscribed a lot of value into what he creates. He was also demoralized in Atlantic City. You know, Steve Jobs was gleeful He realized what we said earlier, Waz's designs were way ahead of the Sl. And Jobs is thinking about the power of that like nice all in one computer case that the Sul came in. Jobs I think in this period They go to Atlantic City When they get the offer from Commodore or make the offer to Commodore, I guess Jobs at this point, I think, sees the path to success for A So he's like, if we can put Our incredible machine inside one of these cases, we blow everybody away. Yeah. And so that's the vision of the future. Right. And maybe it's literally glass half full, glass half empty, but Waz looks at processor technology And he says, well, they're a real company. They got like their salespeople wear suits. They're like HP, a real legitimate company. Waz is working with teenagers and people in their early twenties remember, he's in his mid twenties. business partner Never showers. You know, like what is he doing here? Maybe he should just take his inventions, which he owns and go somewhere better. And just to be clear about the difference in age between them because we think of them as a pair, Steve Jobs is much younger than Steve Wzniak was is married spending late nights working on this Apple stuff while also working at HP. his wife feels neglected. hisis family is concerned that the shunky looking guy with dirty hair and bare feet, that's an actual quote fromz's sister is exploiting their innocent genius brother Trying to get him to quit his good job and neglect his marriage. It is a bad dynamic, especially when you consider everybody around Steve Wzniak. Didn't know Woazz was married at this point. Yeah. I always think of them as two young single guys. is how I've always imagined. No, Waz is like twenty six and married newly married, his first wife. Okay. He's had many. So then so bad dynamic, Sunky looking guy with dirty hair and bare feet, right? Why is his sister says that? No great. Then Steve Jobs withdraws from the Commodore deal before they can even find out if there's an offer to be made or a counter offffer to be made. Yeah. That money could have paid off could have gotten Wazniak a sweet job building his dream computer. Remember he couldn't even go to college for more than like a year at a time because he couldn't afford it. He had to go back and work and make money to pay for another year of college. I think it is very clear and has been clear across this story so far. to me at least, W doesn't care if he owns the business that is produceding his computer. He would have given it all to HP if they would have said yes. Yes. It was purely about Who will let me build this? He doesn't care if he's building it. That's it. He wants to build it and he wants to be I think he wants that to be his job, right? That's the living the dream of like, now me making this computer is what I do, not what I moonlight at while I am working on whatever HP is doing. Although I think he does like the idea of wherever he builds it that you have some control over it. in the cential he will argue with Jobs about how many slots there are. likeike he wants to be a decision maker. And I think that there is a little bit of innocence here, right where he's thinking If a legitimate business will enable me to make these computers, which I love doing, and that'll be my job and it'll be a legitimate corporation with benefits and an office and I can go in and all of that, like that's the dream. Part of that dream is probably a little more innocently like, I will control this and still have my freedom to do this. But the fact is Whatever pushback Steve Jobs is giving him. if he got consumed by a big corporation and was given a whole management structure and stuff, it would have been way worse, right? Like it would have been a rude awakening, I think. He just doesn't know this yet I don't think he's thinking why that So what's Steve Wosniak going to do All of us know Waz is a teddy bear of a man He is proud. for certain He is a little needy of recognition He's sweetheart There's doubt about it through and through. he's a sweetheart. And I can say from personal experience as somebody who discovered fairly late in life, like when I was in my forties, that I am a textbook Conflict avoider I recognize W' whole vibe here. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. I get it. Game recognizes game. I recognize it's like, yeah I have some issues, but I'm not gonna to start Can I avoid this conflict? You know who's not a conflict avoider? Okay? Steve's dad, Jerry. Okay Welcome to the show, Jerry Wasniak. Welcome. he's he's burst in like the Kool Aid man He was an electrical engineer at Lockheed for his entire life. Now I'm going to read something that Michael S. Malone wrote in his excellent book, Infinite Loop. And I agree with this, but it definitely comes from a perspective. Okay, whichich is he's trying to explain how Jerry Wzniak views the world This is what Malone says Jerry Wazniak was as naive about the true nature of business as his son saying He was a good man and a good father, but a lousy businessman R and D always believes it makes the real contribution to a company's success while management merely follows behind sweeping up the credit. management knows better but is forever embarrassed about not being clever enough to work on the new inventions in the lab It's this classic, right likeike Whatever part of the business you're in, you think it's the most important part of the business and everybody else is stealing your thunder And what Malone is saying about Jerry Wzniak is from Jerry Wzniak's perspective, as an electrical engineer, The engineers are the people who create all the value for the company and everything else is just sort of working on that value and taking all the credit and taking all the money which is I mean, that's a real dynamic. I've seen that in my career too. You know, the salespeople who the company I worked for They looked at their sales figures and said, well All the money the company makes is from us, so we're the most important part. And all the editorial people were like, well, we create the product that the salespeople sell into And if the product didn't exist, there'd be nothing to sell. We're the most important part of the company. Yeah. The danger is if you really go down that path and think I have all the value and you have none. That's the danger. And what Malone is saying is This seemed to be what Jerry Wzniak felt about that dynamic between his son and this barefoot guy and Steve Jobs. Not sure whether at this point, but definitely at points in their relationship this is exactly how Jobs and Wasniak feel about each other Wasniak will believe that he has all of the technology and the technical skill is all that matters and Jobs will believe he has all of the business and marketing ideas and that is all that matters I want to be clear as I tell the rest of the story This is not the first fight between the Steeeves. argued about product stuff before However, This is the M important one. And it has ramifications for the rest of their relationship So Jerry wass me decides He's not a conflict avoider He's going to do something about this. and he tells his son Mark Wzniak, he's going to confront Steve Jobs This is his planed. This is a quote Mark Wosniak has verified I'm gonna make the little son ofch cry and that'll be the end. Okay. Okay. So Jerry's got it out for jobs at this. Yeah. Yeah. And so one September evening in nineteen seventy six at the Wasnei' house, Jerry Wazneiak brrings into action and he tells Steve Jobs, quote becausecause again, overheard by Mark Wzniak You don't deserve You haven't produced anything. you haven't done anything Now to Steve Jobs' credit, while he did, as predicted, absolutely burst into tears. So congrats to Jerry Wosniak, then he did. they did what he set out to do. He also told Jerry Wasnak he didn't appreciate everything he'd done for the company. And he told Waz, Look, if we're not fifty, fifty, You can just have the whole thing. calls their bluff He says, If you believe I have no value, I believe this is a fifty fifty partnership And Michael Malone's book, which is, again, it's out of print. somebody bring it back and print it's such a goodook His accounting of this moment is so great Steve Jobs says this kid with the least amount of work experience in the room. was the one who was right. Malone says His fifty percent share might be stretching things a bit after the first six months but would be low in light of things to come ever repeating story of high tech Engineering leads only for the first few months of a new revolution and thereafter Marketing is king Moreover, if there hadn't been a Wazniak, Jobs would have found somebody else. Without Jobs, Wzniak would still be a low grade engineer at Hewlet Packard. Brutal Maybe not wrong. What I would say is I don't think Steve Jobs was ever going to find another Wznia He might have found another muse, another technical person But I don't think they would have ever possibly been as brilliant as Steve Wzniak. I don't think that that actually would have happened As for the other part, I think there's some truth in that as brilliant as Steve Wzniak was I'm not sure given everything we know about him, especially up to now he was ever going to be visible enough to his employers for them to see his genius and he might have been content to work on his tinkering out of the office and then just kind of put in the work at the job during the day. Well, O in that he would do important things at his job because somebody recognized he was good, but he was never going tobesel for the credit of Yeah, I think that's the point is that he was a genius, but maybe a bit of a pushover. Yeah. And that would he have succeeded in a corporate environment Whatould do have been allowed to flourish in the way You know, maybe. And if somebody had identified the Apple two and had been like, oh my God and they had bought the design and put him to work building an HP computer or whatever, maybe he would have ended up being a rock star. He certainly had rockstar talent, but would he have stood out Yeah, I think time tells even at this point, but time as we go into the future tells that W is a pushover. Like unfortunately, that is part of his personality. I don't know if he knows it at this point, but Jobs obviously eventually learns it and pushes was over pushes him to the point that he will lave So this is a reallyally sad moment. Malone's book says that this argument is like a crossing of the rubicon. A according to Randy Wigton who was one of those teenagers working for Apple at the time in A different book called Icon by Young and Simon Rainy Wigon said the friendship between W and jobs dissolved in that period By the time of the Apple T's introduction There was not much pretense left Asad. didn't last very long from this point then Yeah, the Apple two wasn't even finished yet, notot even close Apple compomuter hadn't even been incorporated yet. It's still nineteen seventy six, it's only like six months after they registered the company. I appreciate that because it's hard to keep the timeline doinging this show so far And one of the reasons that I wanted us to do the show together because so much happens so fast. It does. that it's reductive in the way that a lot of these stories are told. Yeah, and so many different things are happening simultaneously. One of the reasons why I do sometimes sort of skip forward and back is I'm trying to follow these narrative threads. And if you did it just chronologically, it would be a mess. I'm trying to follow these individual threads. So in this case, yes, it's all happened so fast We haven't even gotten back to the point where we left our Ale at fifty episode actually because there's so much else going on here So I think this is basically the end of the tight Chhood esque relationship between Steve Jobs and Steve Wzniak. From this point on They are Not really friends It's sad to think about that, but it was almost immediately almost immediately. they went into business together at which point they really were business partners and not friends By the way, you know, for all of the ultimatum of Bos his dad. They didn't dissolve the partnership No I mean, jobs clearly pulled something off in that moment. He called her bluff And Steve Was was not willing to walk away from the partnership, but it ruptured their friendship. But at the same time And it may have kind of taught jobs a lesson at that moment because maybe he was a little bit scared of Jerry. Yeah. So after all this, guess what? We're back to Mike Markola again. I finally. Welcome back, Mike. Welcome back to the show, Mike Markcola. Apple has now failed to sell itself. So they've stopped now. they're done now. We're trying to sell this company. That's the end of it Yeah, venture capitalist Don Valentine who jobs had been referred to by Nolan Bushneela D Tari. So like, they go to Tari and Bushnell is like, no, no, no, no. feet on the president's desk it's not going to work. He says, go talk to Don Valentine.'s a VC, maybe he'll. D Valentine referred to Apple as renegades from the human race. Even Valentine was like Y Clueless but they're kind of charming these kids Maybe they're worth a shot in the dark I'm not going to invest in them, but I know someone who might be interested So he's looking through his mental roolodex It's nineteen seventy six, it might be an actual realodx. It's not a metaphor in seventy six. I know. It's like an actual like metals in it. Yeah Pe's names on them for a marketing focused expert thin who could get their act together? right? Think about how the SAl has a whole salesforce with suits. And then there's Steve Jobs A marketing focused expert might be able to bring them into the real world where they wouldn't be renegates for the human race And he suggests Don Valentine does my market list. This is the chain that leads to Apple. It's quite an interesting causal chain which is Steve Jobs worked at Atari. He knew Nolan Bushnell, who was the CEO. who recommended Don Valentine the VC, who did not want to invest in them, but thought Enough to refer them to somebody kind of felt bad. that he was going to just say no and says, Wh why don't you talk to Mike Marla Mike Markla alsoso see something in these two guys He gets a demo of that Apple two that Waz is working on And he decides Let's build a business plan He set sales goals. He invests some of his own money. He gets the company a quarter of a million dollars line of credit at Bank of America And As we've established before On january third, nineteen seventy seven The actual fiftieth anniversary of Apple Computer, they file incorporation papers for Apple Computer Incorporated This is the real birthday And so with Mike Marala on the scene. Apple can be a company What they're going to need is a product product is going to be the Apple two, but what is it going to be Are they going to put people that is going to sell better than the Apple one which you had to put in a cigar box Well, that is the question we will answer on the next episode of design in California, so people can look forward to that. Next time, we will Dive in to the rise of the Appleude