Lessons Learned Through Failure and Exile

Welcrom Relay, this is Ugrade episode six one six, the Marvel Universe for may eighteenth, twenty twenty six I am your host Jason Snell Mike Hurley is on assignment. This episode is still brought to you, though, even though Mike is on assignment. by delete me Squarespace, Claude in and Steam Clock and joining me filling in for Mike is his fellow relay co founder Mister Stephven Hacket. Hi, Stehven Hey, Jason, thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. Thanks for helping out on this I do not want this show to be a monologue because that would be super boring. No no let's not do that. Nobody wants that. I don't want And I would be the one monologing and I don't want it. So I don't want to inflict that on Anybody else Yeah. lookook, we've said this before. I you and I don't get to talk about tech very much in public. And so when we do, it's always a treat. Yeah. So I'm always happy jp it together. We talk about it a lot, but not together Yeah, yeah, yeah, together in public. We're also talking behind the scenes all the time all the time We're in a podcast together talking about tech. And even though I am the guest, Yes, you are the host. Yes I don't have time to to this, Steven, because I think we've got a snell talkalk question from you. From me. For me. That's what I was I was trying to get there. I saw I saw I thought you might need a need a little a little helping hand Just helping me out Jason. I know that you have been slowly collecting more Apple Gear and viewers have upgraded see it, right? becausecause it's behind you. Yes. What are some recent additions? and I would love to know also what's on your shortlist. What would you love to have added. So One of the dangerous things about making old computers behind me part of my video setup is that it gives me an excuse to buy old computers I haven't done a lot of that. I actually haven't bought a lot of stuff recently. by A trash can becausecause and that bounced around a few different podcasts. I felt like we were at the low point where It was no longer useful as a computer but no longer vintage enough to rise in price Yes. And I saw you could get one for like one hundred and eighty bucks. and I'm like, o they are the perfect price right now. Yeah Be it looks great. I theoretically it works. I just I haven't set it up. Theoretically it works, but for now, I have to find a the right display adapter, which I probably have. I just haven't bothered to do it to get it to a more modern display Otherwise, it probably works. I assume it works. So there's that It has, I know it has HDMI out. mine behind me, but you can't see it's not frame It's got HDMI, but I guess it also has Thunderbolt too. I can just pop it to a TV in my in my house. That would work. That's what you want is I can make up my new server is U So I've got that, but the big things came last week. I got two more I got two more items that were on my list One of them was high on my list And one of them was just kind of it might be. So there's a I'm not going to say it's a tragic story. It's a sad human story I used to work at Mac user back in the nineties. Um And I showed up as a summer intern A couple of weeks after the editor and chief of Macews are left for another job And that guy, his name was John Zilber And and as a result, all the people I worked with at Mac Uer back then knew John. I never knew John, but they all knew John And John passed away a few weeks ago And my friend Jim, who I worked with at Mac user back in the day. said, the family is having some trouble Figuring out what's on old Macs, figuring out if they're functional or not. and H He was wondering if I could help them. And especially one of the tasks and you'll appreciate this is they couldn't actually use some of them because they didn't have an ADB keyboard or mouse Right. Yeah. it may start up, but then you can't interact What do you do? because these are pre IMAC and therefore They don't have they have you the old Apple desktop bus So and he sent me a picture and that was, I mean, G knew what he was doing. He sent me a picture And I looked at the picture and I was like Is that an emate Yes. Is that an original G three i book Yes And so I said, you know, I said get them in touch with me and I will help them. And I went down there They're they're south just south of San Francisco and I went down there. And I brought with me Apple extxtended keyboard. U or Apple keyboard. I didn't bring the big one. I have a smaller one. You know, and why you don't drive that big of a car. I mean, you need to run a U haul to use the extended two. And I was worried, do I have AyB mice And I do. I had two. So I brought an AyB mouse And I brought the bllue Suzzy whichich is for those who don't know, it's basically like a raspberry pie that is attached to a scuzzy port And it reads off of SD cards, it reads disk images So you can pop in an SD card basasically I was worried that they wanted to get some personal stuff off of them which they didn't actually want. These were systems that were very, very old obviously, and they didn't they weren't worried about that. They actually just wanted to determine would they boot Mhm And so there were three systems there that they were wondering about One of them was a Beige G three Um And What do we figure out? I figurered I I powered it on And I could hear the hard drive going clunk clunk clk, clunk And I said I said, that'll be easy to take the hard drive out of because it's a big tower Also, that hard drive is dead, so don't worry about it Yeah ye. There was a powermac seven thousand two hundred or something. So a desktop power Mac those backack in those days, those were also actually pretty easy to open And that one I said Um we couldn't get video out. That was it turns out the big challenge was Mac videoide to modern monitor is very hard It's hard. It's really hard because Mac you have you end up with an adapter, which which he had on both of these systems, An adapter with a bunch of dip switches on it that goes to VGA and we plugged in a VGA monitor and none of them lit up. And so we really don't know like was it trying to boot that one made littleittle more positive hard drive noises. And I said you should probably just get in there and rip it out. because they're worried about personal stuff on it. So they just yeah just just remove it. Yeah And I said you should be able to do that Oh, they had a G four cube which booted sometimes, but never to a screen that actually loaded the OS. And I said that one you're going to have to look, that's more modern. So you're going to have to look online about how to remove the hard drive. I took it I opened it up and I said, that's the hard drive. But you're going to have to take some pieces apart in order to get it out of there. Yeah The difference is I would have gone with a full tools set and I would have like stripp those babies down beyond my beyond my interest or capability. So I did not do that. That was I was I was strictly the bllue Sudzy was as far as it went. And there was a there was a Mac SE And the funny thing is it was an SessE, not an Sessi thirty. and I was like and it wouldn't boot And I realized actually that the hard drive was blinking SOS in Morse code Yeah a funny thing that hard drives did back then. It was actually blinking, you know, long, long, long shorts of short But that one, I was able to download Sy six hundred eight onto Blue Suzzy as an image and pop it on the back and turn it on and it booted And so I said, so this one you can sell because they're just going to sell this stuff on eBay I said, you could sell this as boots, but the hard you know, boots from external, but the hard drive internally is dead. veryery common when you're shopping for this stuff. like I mean, really at this point, if I if I get anything, I kind of just assume that age. I just kind of assume the internal storage is dead because if it's not, it will be soon. It will be soon. Eactly. But I want to reassure them. So that one blinking SS I said it's a gonner I said, if he was like a former head of state or something, I would recommend you absolutely remove all these drives and sledgehammer them. But He's not. and so nobody is going to ever attempt to do forensics on that drive to pull off the platters to find out what was on a Mac SE in nineteen ninety three You'd be surprised though how many times over the years I've gotten something either purchased or, you know, sent from a listerer or a reader And it just is full of stuff. I have like I have a power book. my powerbook one seventy or one hundred eighty, whatever it is that I got for the twenty Max or twenty twenty series That's just got somebody's stuff on it. Like right down to the Kinetectics powerBook utilities is like Every time I open it on that thing, it's got his name. It's like registered to this guy. And I'm like, I don't know who that guy is, but this was his computer That's a little weird. Yeahah, it's When you're decommissioning a computer, ideally you should Wipe it U and after the fact Yeah, yeah, it's just it can be weird. So anyway, I walked away with An hemate That's awesome. And does it work? They say it works, but they kept the power plug because I said I could get another power plug. although my Newton power adapter doesn't have enough power. so I had to order a power adapter for it. Yeah, It's a different wattage, I think. Yeah So I but I think what they said is that it was it was u It had a login code So I was I'm going to have to reset it which is fine. You just wipe it and reset it and then you can get in. But I've got that. That's fun because I never I spent like T minutes with one. in the nineties and never again. So I'm excited to have that O of the unique I told them the story about how Johnny Ive in that period was just trying to make things with translucent plastic and nobody would listen And since there was a Beige G three there, I was able to point at the little plast a button button on the side and say, see, this is this is him crying to be let out. And I got I got a, it's a graphite U G three power books which very nice. I don't I didn't especially need it, but it's fully functional I mean, the battery's dead, but it runs And Um My mom used that. That was her first when my parents moved into their motor home and were full time motorhomers, we got her an orange e book And she take it because in those days there wasn't even wiifi at the park. So she would take it up to the front office where there was a modem you could plug your phone line into your computer and dial in to get your email. And that's what they did U And so I've sort of fond memories of that And so I got that one too. Also it's such it's such a unique looking laptop. So that's what I got now. I got I got an email. I got So it's fun. I don't. what's on my short list. honestly, there's very little On my short list at this point. Um I don't because so many of these things are like kind of like being able to take pictures of them or have them in the background and all that. I'm mostly just interested in how they look I will say Honestly, Stehven The modern Mac Pro is on my list for when it falls in price to the point where it doesn't cost anything anymore, like the trash can. And I will get that because I've got I've got a G four here. I've got a couple powermac G four is here. I don't have a G five I mean, maybe, but like They're just interesting to me and that one look looks particularly interesting. So maybe, but like I'm not I'm not feeling like there's a white whale out there for me. Do you have anything left that I mean, I feel like you've got everything now. Is there anything out there that you're Um G got a laundndering I would love Elisa That is my That may be the only thing on my list now. Oh yeah is I've got the like My setups obviously different than I used to be, but I can see sort of over the camera an IMac G for, a twentieth anniversary Mac and a Mac p moal. Yeah, that I would get a twentieth anniversary Mac, but they're so expensive that I never will I got mine ten years ago And the prices have only gone up. Yeah. right there's a you, like you mentioned the moment. It's outmoded, but not vintage. The M the twenty nineteen Mac Pro will hit that and when it does, I will get one too because I loved mine Um but I sold it because it was in the beginning of that curve. It was like the business owned it. Right?ike I need the value out of it to buy the next computer. and so But no, I enjoy this. I'm glad you're getting into it. No. And I will say also for those who you can't see it as well on upgrade on backbreak weekly'm I'm shot straight on on the video version and you can see it. And the thing I'm most proud of about my setup, which has got these nice IKa shelves that I got which is entirely inspired by theod the old pod cabin Yeah. which had these same shelves and I really liked it U and so I got them So Everything that's back there that you see on Mac Break weekly anyway Obs All of it. the G four cube The one twenty eight or I guess it's a five, twelve the Apple two C All all the stuff back there boots, which is They're not just there for show. The only thing that I have that's totally non fununctional is the Mac portable And again it's kind of not worth it to me to even make the effort to make it functional. I just it look so weird and I was able to get one cheap because it didn't run that I got it, but it's dead Yeah. I have I don't have a battery. you can get a battery, but I have the actual the parts to bring mine back to life and I've just never bothered Yeah like Hey gotcastathon. Let's bring let's bring back the Okay. the backac What we learned with the podcastathon last year is that what you really want is an extra guest who's not responsible for podcaston things to do work off on the side and you check in with them M becausecause if you're if you're actually trying to entertain people and fix a computer, it does not work. It doesn't work. It's now . Let's just some follow up Okay, before we get into the rest of the show. We had a lot of talk with Mike about visual intelligence and airPods and airPods with cameras and what that was all going to be about. And I think I probably said that I thought visual intelligence was kind of useless. And we heard from Logan who said, I'll be the second person to defend visual intelligence. It's good. There's twoo of you, you can start a club now Yeah. takes. I use it to identify plants and insects often, but it's best for vintage shopping. I love mid century modern decor It not only accesses Google images, but also eBay, Etsy, and Pinterest. It makes it easy to find an item and purchase it. The real issue is there's no visual intelligence in the Photos app. If I screenshot something to save for later, I have to take another screenshot to use visual, That's not good. Visual intelligence. Hopefully that will change in IOS twenty seven. Yeah, more integration. It doesn't feel very well integrated. That's part of the problem It really feels tacked on to the camera and really the camera control experience. But it is cool that apps can access it. I forget if it's Home Depot or Lowe's I've got both on my phone because man, I'm a suburban dad. Wow. suburban dad. one of those apps also supports it. and like It is H And I like that it exists, but I kind of land where you land. like I don't personally have a use case for it Um I hadn't even thought or come across it like this is not in the Photos app. That seems like a big oversight to me Eespecially when you look at Well Google does in Android and what they've been doing for a long time but then the new stuff they announced last week very much like contextual intelligence. like I have this photo in my photo library What is in it, right? And there's some of that stuff. It knows about pets plants But it's not the same system. R as like the full blown visual intelligence. Beuse it's like an older system. They built visual intelligence into the screenshot interface, which when you're just trying to take a screenshot is very annoying It is. but they built it there and it's not in photos. and yeah I think there's a technical reason why you understand why it's like that, but if you're a user, you're like, why am I having to do this? Why do I have to take a screenshot of a screenshot M So thank you to Logan. Jimmy wrote in and said Regarding the AirPods with camera rumor, do you think it's about the tech or about the messaging? If it's announced as AirPods with environmental sensors or something, does that change the perception? Consumers won't expect to take pictures and the public won't assume it's a camera. This product would be a boon to accessibility. Reading signs door detection, other things the Magnifier app already does. If Apple advertises it as phone stuff without the phone does that change things. And I would say I heard from people who said like if this is like an infrared camera or it's got it's an unusual thing And they don't sell it as a camera, but as a as a. visual sensor or like something that is it's not about taking pictures because I don't believe it will be about taking pictures. I believe it'll be about sensing things Maybe that makes a difference. I don't know. Yeah, the door detection stuff is really cool when they rolled that out. I think a couple of years ago now And yeah, clearly cameras that are sort of, well, sort of inherently eye level are really useful from an accessibility standpoint I think the broader conversation of Do Apple call it a camera? Is it perceived as a camera? That's really complicated. I think there's enough pushback on things like this. Like there lots of people like the Mray bands and like the other things, but there's a lot of people who really don't like them and and don't want to be around them or have them in their house, like I think no matter how Apple sells it, unless it really is not a camera. If it's really like this is you know, LIDAar sensors or something. then there's a risk of it kind of going sideways. I think can get away with it if they said something like it's an infrared fish eye camera that's intended to see what's happening around you, but it's not for taking pictures or videos or something like that where they And it's a weird camera is basically what they would be saying. They'd use technical things to make them seem impressive. but I think that's what it would be in the bottom line. It is like it's kind of a weird camera. Don't worry about it. It's not for that We're not taking pictures. We're not spying on you. We're just seeing what's in your environment and using it for helpful things Yeah. I think the other thing that is is key on things like the meta products. is like some indication to the other person they're being recorded. And I don't know how you do that if this is more of like an environmental sort of ambient sensor setup. I do think that helps people a little bit be at more ease with with these things Um this has made me think of something that I haven't had a place to say it so I'm going to have it here. like I think it's easy to look at products like the metast stuff or even something like this, AirPods with cameras and immediately go to the Google Glasses situation But That was a long, long time ago. When Google Glasses came out It was unusual for cameras to be everywhere. A bunch of people already had smartphones I think comparing this directly to like The glass hole situation is not really right or fair But at the same time, there are people who are going to have strong feelings about this. and and not not be excited about it U ye, it's all in the messaging and I think if Apple can talk about it and the use cases really are accessibility. visual intelligence, you know, I as a user can't even see what the camera see. likeike maybe this is all kind of going into these apps and things. Um They's got to be really clear about that. And I think be able to explain it in a way that is reassuring, not But also not condescending to people who are concerned about this stuff, right Uh It's going going to be interesting. I still I still am trying to imagine how they sell this product, but I guess we'll find out. Yeah, if it ever exists Another bit of follow up is about Binning and the MacBook Nia. We talked about that a lot I got one piece of weird feedback who said Jason doesn't understand how binning works. He said that binning is what you try to do. and I'm like I never said that, but I appreciate the feedback, I guess. Binning just happens. By the way If you were wondering why bidding happens, the Wall Street Journal I find this funny because this is one of those things where it's like It's a cool angle for the Wall Street Journal and for tech people, it's kind of a known issue. But to the non tech readers, it's a cool business story. So they did a story called Apple is making hit products and high profits from imperfect chips the headline is more suspicious than the story, which is just an explainer about how binning works where you've got a wafer and some of the chips work great and some of the chips don't work at all. and some of the chips are in between and that Apple has gotten very good at using some of the, you know, fail, but not too much and using them in other products, which we've been talking about. That's what Binning is. But thanks to the Wall Street Journal for explaining it to their audience Um So Mgo wrote in And said I this is great, this is a great letter. This is a great letter. Mango comoming from the Conspiracy theory Bureau. I have some wild questions on binning. I know journalists have standards, but it's also fair to question the basic premise of a binNned A eighteen pro Do we know there are bum cores? What if, regardless of the system on a chip's test performance, the NEO uses too much power or makes too much heat with all cores turned on The A five X for iPad three was the first A series chip with extra GPU cords because retina and the back of that iPod iPad got really hot. I remember it well. Wst worst iPad ever. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that. I replaced it in like six months Oh it was so ye. Mango. I appreciate the conspiracy theory. Maybe they deactivated the course for other reasons. I think the What we know is that these b The thing is, if it's not binned, if it's just a full price chip, they would have had to buy it for full price And I'm not saying that there aren't some No A eighteen pros that are deactivated That may be, they may have had access of the perfectly good ones that passed the test and they deactivated those already just because they have no use for the sixix GPU version It's possible, but You know as we found out because they're going to do a hot lotot and they're going to get more of these U Apple's not, you know ordering up Broken chips, which means The ones that come out fully functional with six GPU cores that they have to disable, they're going to pay full price for those And they'll pay the bin price, the, you know, the partially broken price for the ones that are partially broken, but they will also be paying full price. So that's why they wouldn't do that is that They have toay TSMC full price is my understanding for the ones that work Be if you say that you go an order from TaseMC. o, I want what I used to have one less core. Well one, that's like That's more time to spin this back up And you're going to have bend processors out of that collect. Exactly. Yeah, you want you want to try to make it with six Yeah because a certain percentage of them will have a single fail and those are all usable and the ones that have no failures are all usable So you want to make her the plus it's your design. your design is six Right And either they they turn that off in the No or maybe like was theorized a couple of weeks ago, maybe the higher end No gets one extra core at some point. I don't think it really matters. I mean It's interesting from like the business perspective and like Apple doesn't end up in these situations very often product of the No, like the story of the No was so much more than how the number of GPU cores Yeah. it has like It's a delightful computer. I just set one up yesterday u for one of my kids and ' going through it. It's the citrus one And they're super excited and like it's like, yeah, it's like a fun laptop that's inexpensive, but full featured. you know My kids not gonna care about how many GPU cores are in it. I don't really care It's just, it's the behind the scenes stuff that makes this interesting It doesn't make or break the product if one core is turned on. I'm more concerned about the price of it than anything else. I think the most important feature of the Do is what it costs right. And why there's not an orange one L give it a time That time they'll get there. Lemon lime got to jump it in the queue, I guess. Sure This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by Delete me. Deletee makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Delete mee does the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data, broker, websites The wire cutter one of my favorite websites named delete me their top pick for data removal services. Now normally when Mike's here, he will tell you about why he and Edina used Delete Me. They really like the idea getting junk about themselves off the internet so that they can lead better lives and not and like have the confidence to know that that stuff is not out there, that it doesn't have to be out there. You don't have to accept that all of that stuff is going to be floating out there And you can be like them, You can take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me at a special discount for upgrade listeners, twenty percent off your deletee plan when you go to join deeleteme. com slash upgrade twenty and use promo code upgrade twenty at checkout. The only way to get twenty percent off is to go to JO I N D E L E T EM E d. com slash upgrade twenty. and enttercode upgrade twenty at check out join deeleteme. com Slash upgrade twenty code Ugrade twenty. than you to delete me. for supporting grade. and relay Roomor roundup time, Stehven. Yeah. Thank you, than you. I appreciate it. I knew you were gonna do do that one right German, the sheriff Moseian into town to talk about Siri on IOS twenty seven. He wrote about this in his newsletter. He wrote a piece about this He's reiterating, you know, he's he reports about this all year long. So as we get closer to WWDC, some of what he has to do is sort of like put in the context of the things he's already reporting. So he's already said, I think that there's a standalone Si app for chatting. He said users are going to be able to pop into the chat experience by a Siri We're entering a new search or askk mode by swiping down from the center. There's a lot of stuff happening when you swipe down from the top of the screen But one of them will be basically, it's like sppotlight, but it's Siri. it's search or askk. Unifying that, which I think is a good idea And then in terms of privacy uh Mark reports that Siri will have a smaller context memory It will remember previous chat and other details. It'll be set to auto delete, although you can change how long conversations stick around Um, and that What he's really saying is Ale Apple has to lean into privacy here, but they need to not let their standards get in the way, which has been a kind of a bug bear for Mark German's kind of analysis of his reporting for a while now is he feels like Apple is struggling with the idea that it's got a privacy brand and that this stuff all kind of like is not great for privacy. And how does it square that Yeah. and I don't think he's wrong to touch on that. I think he he hangs a lot of hats on it But the I think at the end of the day like peopleeople who want an AI product from Apple Like those those those people care about privacy, that may even be a primary reason they choose it over something like Chat GBT or Claud or God forbid Grock But At the same time, if it means the product doesn't work or is like frustrating to use I guess it feels like a very thin landing strip for this to come down on and Yeah. Yeah I don't I just don't know how they how they manage that. I mean, the Google relationship and this is something that German points out is Apple has this private clloud compute branding And they talk about having things go to the private cloud It doesn't preclude them from using Google because Google also has a private. here now where things get locked up in very much a way inspired, it seems by what Apple was doing And so it's possible that what they're going to say, and we'll have to watch for this at WWDC, right is They may not describe it. They may not brand it as Apple's servers They may. I mean, it depends on how they want to define what private clloud compute is and whether it's Apple servers or whether Google servers that do the same thing are counted But it's quite possible that that's what's going on is that they're actually, you, this is not necessarily running on Apple servers. it may be running on Google servers that are using the same security models, the same idea, that they can't see it, they can't do anything with it and that they'll make those those claims. But I do think they are going to do that. I think that that's one of the things Apple really has invested in here is the idea that you can You can use these services and none of these people know. L all that data is anonymous, essentially and unviewable by the hosts of the servers that you're using Right. I mean, and Google made an announcement back in November that they had built effectively what private Coud compute is and does. Right Maybe that was part of the deal with Apple. I remember we that was a conversation when the Gyini thing was announced was like, is this a factor here that they were able to do this or willing to do it I think it's also interesting that Apple if they play their cards right, they kind of get the best of both worlds. They get Access to models werere trained without a lot of privacy rules in place necessarily product they get to build out of that is or does have those higher privacy walls in place Um That I think is going to be as interesting to hear from them as what the features are because in a way, we know what the features are going to be. right? They're building a chat bot. We know what those things do Um They've already took their hand in other areas of the OS that AI can interact with. like image generation and visual intelligence and these other things. like we know what their product is going to be. what we don't know is how it's going to work. and They have a story to tell there. Yeah. It's going to be a challenge and this is when we're going to parse the details, I feel like is it really is going to come down to how do they pitch this because some I I do believe that the goal of this is still going to be to maximize privacy. I think they can't get away from that and they don't want to Mhm, but it is It is an issue. A piece of feedback I got that I don't think we're going to get to in this episode, but it was asking about like the idea of the semantic index but you've got multiple devices and are you syncing data across devices? And a lot of times what Apple does is You're running the model. for photos on device, which is why the photo stuff doesn't like it reruns on every device you've got. And one of the reasons is it's just a machine learning thing. like They're not they're not passing metadata around. They're using their ML model to generate what those all of those keywords are on your photos. That's the danger with something like personal context is like you could pass it around, but now you're passing around personal data and it's leaving your phone I still feel like if they do something like personal context, which was, you know, a twenty four feature, so who knows if they're gonna ever go back there. But if they do go back there. Um It's very hard to make the claim that you're passing it around, but it's okay versus it never leaves your device So I feel like they're going to be left with It's going to leave it's going to stay on your device, but that that might put them If it puts them at a disadvantage compared to what their competitors are doing, they have to make a choice And that's that's I think what German's really getting at with a lot of what he says is Is Apple going to put itself behind? orr is it going to break some of its promises in order to day relevant. and I don't know if it'll come up or not, but it's certainly a possibility. This very well may not be a keynote type thing. This may be a state of the Union It may be a it's buried down in a session somewhere of like, you know get to know the new Apple intntelligence, right? And there's a section in there about these things Because it does also affect developers, right? If a developer is going to tap into Apple Intelligence and the Gemini model behind it, through API usage That developer may have limitations based on how Apple builds this and how they structure it. So I suspect we'll hear something, even if it's not the headline Yeah, they gott to say something question of what what is it? What is it? Also, There was another Mark Germman story that I was debating whether I wanted to give this any oxygen or not, but I want to at least mention it. which is a very I think A very weird story about The headline is Apple Open AI Alliance Frase. setting up possible legal fights And it's a very weird story Because you know, most of Mark German's stories are based on his sources at Apple And this, there's no question of who his source is because there's an unnamed open AI executive giving him quotes M and it's not an anonymous. I mean They are unnamed Mark Germman They cant I assume they came to him and said, we would like to give you some juicy stuff But you can't name who said it Which feels to me like this is an authorized by open AI communication Yeah the communication itself It's really weird. It's basically A giant corporation worth lots and lots of money goes to the media to say We feel like Apple's treated us bad about our AI partnership and we're talking to lawyers about whether we should sue them. It's like the It's the most abstract saber rattling. I've seen in a while where it's like They're not actually threatening to sue them They're sort of threatening to talk to people about suing It's like a tiny balloon on top of your trial balloon. You know, it's like Yeah let's see how this feels. Yeah,' before we release the trial balloon,'ll put Let put this little little party balloon up and see what happens to it It's just it's very weird also I'm not a lawyer. You can sue for anything But I have a hard time seeing exactly what their case is, which is probably why they're only talking to lawyers and not filing a lawsuit because they feel like it's sort of like Apple didn't try hard enough with this and not enough people are using it And and other stuff like that. and it just seems very weird to me kind of sour grapes. And I think Grouper pointed out last week that It's not like open eyess app isn't very successful in the app store. So what exactly are they complaining about? And maybe are they complaining about the reports that in IOS twenty seven, they're going to be peers to other AI providers and they're no longer going to be exclusive and they feel like their exclusivity window didn't really benefit them because I mean London Chalk it up to WWDC twenty four, but like There's a lot of stuff going on about AI That just didn't work out You were one of them. I mean like yeah. And it didn't hurt you appreciably because the platform has still got lots of open AI users on it. So I find it I just it's a weird story like They want somebody at O opening I've got b out of shape about the Apple relationship and just wanted to like really just fire off a flare saying This will get their attention that we're unhappy and probably My guess is they were just hoping they get you know, somebody to return their calls about this, getet some executive to call them and say Okay, let's move this over. We're sorry, you're unhappy U It's going to be okay. but that I don't know. It was one of the more baffling storyies ever because there's no there's nothing behind it. I mean, I'm not saying it didn't happen. It did happen. I'm just saying there's Not even open AI can muster very much in this leak that they're doing to Mark German Yeah, if Apple had gone to them and promised Hey, you're going you're going to see X amount of usage and if you don't will pay you for the difference. or you know, something like that, then they should pay then then they should pay them. Yeah. But if that was what open AI had on their side wouldn't it that be their statement and not whatever this thing is? I agree with you. It's weird. It feels wishy washy You know No doubt. This didn't go the way either company thought it would go. That's true. Literally everything they announced. That's the whole end. WWC twenty four storory. It's not you, it's us And That's right But is that justification for this. likeike unless there's some big thing here we just don't know. I kind of agree with you. I don't really see it, but Um You know, also as an opportunity to use one of my favorite photos of the last, however many years of tech journalism of Eddie Q speaking to Sam Altman and it looks like he's grounding him staying out too late. Yeah, you'rere you got detention You got to go to the dean's office One other item this this just broke This morning, I received this link from my gate correspondent Stehven Hacket. M Don might me that. A Mac he's behind the green gate rightight now just sticking his head over the green gates and Hingeate. Is it going to happen? It's another Weibo Laker. This is instant digital. And Mac Rumors has got the details of what they're saying. and it's funny because actuallyctually what they're saying is A Apple's factories are currently struggling with the hinge of the foldable iPhone in it it looks like in its repeated, you know, we've seen those videos, right where you open and close a thing a bunch of times on a machine in order to kind of like model what the wear is. And what this report says is that The hinge is consistently failing to meet the quality control standards under conditions of prolonged high frequency opening and closing. So one of those machines, almost certainly However, the report also says it's unlikely to push back the device's expected release window someomewhat noting that there is still ample time remaining. So I guess what they're saying here is this stuff happens and if they fix it, it's not going to delay the product But right now, at least as of this report, Apple has run in. I mean, this is clearly somebody in the factory saying to somebody, leaking to somebody No, yeah, I just failed to test And so it becomes this story. But it's a hard problem, right? This is part of new stuff for Apple to handle that they've never handle before, something like this. and they want to get it right. They don't want to have an iPhone come out That's got a bad hinge that moves badly or causes a big screen fold because it's moving wrong or or whatever is going on Yeah, I mean, the hinge and the crease are like the whole game. Yeah here, right? And and so many early folding phones failed because of debris in the hinge or things like that. So they're enclosed now and I'm sure they'll figure it out. I also think that If the if the foldable evenven if they split the iPhone line where the the next the eighteen and maybe the air two or in the spring. So the fall is just the pro proro Max and foldable I think the photo will could also come a little bit later if they need another few weeks But I would suspect at this point You would hope that this would not be a showstopper. Yeah right Like I mean, they did have that issue with the what I think was basically the camera control button, which they turned into the action button late in the game because they were having issues with the camera control style. U non you know, not quite physical button. and so they replaced it with an actual physical button. So You know The product hasn't been announced. If they can't makeake it work reliably, they can just kick it to the spring. or kick it to the following year. And they don't want to do that. could do that. My understanding is the way this works is that you know, when you're manufacturing these, you make the small lots and you test them. Eventually you have to put it on the factory line And then you test those, right? You're testing You're testing batches as you go to make sure that it all is going to work okay. But you, you know, when you go up to the the next level of production, I think you need to test it again And they have names for every level of this, you know, DVT, PVT. QVC, I don't know. they've got all those levels. Yeah, they do. And you need to test them at all those levels. and This sounds to me like they they brought it up to another level and did a bunch of testing. They're like not happy with the results And what that suggests to me is that It probably is that something in the way they're assembled at this level is not how they're assembled at the previous level And they got to debug it. And this stuff probably happens If you know I sended anonyous comment about this, but my guess is this stuff happens all the time. This is part of the process of building putting an iPhone on the factory is you got to go through these cycles where you're like, that didn't work. Where's the problem? Why is this hinge now not working when it was working before and then you solve it So we'll see. but they do have the freedom They don't have the freedom to not ship the next iPhone pro. But they do have the freedom to not ship this if they really have a problem with it. They got all the attatitude in the world with this product because it doesn't exist. It hasn't been announced. We all know that it's coming, but like They can delay it and it's just not going to be the end of the world because it's not an existing product that they're updating. That is That is the end of of room roundup We're going to go to a new thing coming up in our next segment, which is going to be an interview I got to talk to Jeffrey Canain, who wrote the book, Steve Jobs in Exile, which is coming out tomorrow as we record this may nineteenth. about the book. And Stehen, you heard the interview because you're a time traveler from the future Yes. And I think it's I think it's really good. I think it's a lot of fun talalking about Steve Jobs and next and what What Steve Jobs learned by failing it N Yeah, which is what the book is all about. It's a fascinating conversation. It's an area that is not has not been covered super well. L there's some books about N out there U I've not read the book Right now Yeah I get to tomorrow And I know, I know U, and it's the top of my list. But yeah, I think I think people are going to really like this But before that, this episode is brought to you by Squarespace Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online whether you're just starting out. or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need Tclaim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place, Stephven Hackett Hello You use Squarespace, do you not I do. 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G. than you to Squarespace for supporting this show and all. of relay All right, now I want to introduce my special guest for this episode. It's Jeffrey Kaine, author of Steve Jobs in Exile which is coming out as we As we release this episode tomorrow, may nineteenth, Jeffrey, welcome to upgrade Great to be here, Jason I really enjoyed this book a lot. I think people who are interested in Apple History and Steve Jobs history. We'll get a lot out of it. and it's funny. So you sent me An email about this about the same time that I was writing my review of David Pogg's book It's such a great combination actually because David's book is so focused on being a biography of Apple that when Steve goes to next He basically leaves the book. and then re enters when Gilamilio is shopping for an operating system And your book is, you know, it's got details of what sort of led to Steve leaving Apple, but like, Your book is what happened to Steve while he was gone, which is very dramatic in an amazing number of ways Well yeah, while writing it, I could see the drama. It was something that popped out right at me. But yeah, David Pogg's book, excellent book. I have a copy on my desk and he goes so in depth and he's just so exhaustive. So we were joking together that it should our book should be sold as a set. you know, mine is like the middle years when Steve disappears from his book and then here's the story of how Steve got through those tough years at nextext compomputer but yeah, it's, um This u You know, this story, you know, you know, I've written tech biographies before, written about companies. and what always popped out at me was the sheer amount of drama at Nxt Computer. as Steve Jobs was leaving, as he was descending into the wilderness and trying to find his way through these repeat failures, you know, almost everything he did From the time he left Apple in nineteen eighty five until about nineteen ninety five, about ten years later, was a failure. Almost everything. The hardware that he made, the cube, which is one of the famous items. And it's just I was mind blown by the sheer amount of financial terror and, you know the personal bankruptcy that he would have faced if things continued in this direction, just a few more years H his colleagues told me and I was thinking, wow, you know, like, if if Steve Jobs is a guy who you know, goes through this, then, you know, whatever problems I have in life or what other people might have, maybe maybe they're not actually that bad. If Steve Jobs can survive like total failure and bankruptcy and, you know, the hardware division of Ne compputer falling apart, Um, you know, maybe u maybe there's a lesson in here for all of us. I was telling somebody about having read this book and I said I was like, how do I characterize it? I thought It's kind of tough. I mean, it is it's a good book, but like this is not one of these heartwarming stories where Steve Jobs steps off stage at Apple and he goes into kind of like learn some important lessons in a heartwarming way and turns it all around likeike It's a it's not even a disaster. It's like a series of bad decisions and missteps and Question marks and like it It really, you can see that this is this is a guy who is being humbled by the world at a time when he probably needs to be, but like he is absolutely being humbled when he's gone to next Right And that's the thrust of the story.. You know, we have this story, we have this narrative that's often told that there was Apple version one and Steve left and then he returned twelve years later and he saved Apple and that became Apple version two, the iPod, you know, the iPhone, the masterpiece age. I think that's a good term for it. But you know, that's just our bias. That's what we want to see because, you know, when we're looking at great visionaries like Steve Jobs who is You know, one of the greatest entrepreneurs of our era, we look at the stuff that we want to see. We want to look at the successes. We want that guy in the turtleneck there doing the brilliant keynote. you know, he always says one more time, he holds up his little square rectangle and he can convince you that that's the future. Like, you know, almost nobody else can do that. that the power that Steve Jobs had The story that we often don't look at is what does it take to achieve that? You know, it's not like Steve just showed up and had a brilliant idea for the iPhone and released it and then released, you know, OS with it too What really happened was the crucible. I mean, it was the wilderness. It was the suffering and the pain and the tragedy that he had to go through before he could get to that stage. It was years and years, more than a decade of building, you know, not just thinking of the idea, but building the execution. So you know, building the company, the right team the people learning to lead them, learning to not alienate them. And Steve Jobs, as we all know, was quite a difficult personality. So he had the He had to learn that one the hard way. But you know my book is about the story before all that. What does it take to lead Apple? What does it take to get to that stage where you can actually be Steve Jobs And to become Steve Jobs, you've got to go through that hardship first Yeah. so Steve famously, I think and David Pog's book is very good about explaining this and you talk about it too win I didn't get fired, but he quit because he kind of was getting sidelined and forced out and he finally decided he was going to go In doing so, not only was that dramatic because he wanted to take a bunch of key people with them, but a thing that you detail in the book is his inspiration, right? He had this moment where he was thinking about computer that Nobody was building primarily for higher education, which I had no idea about that there was this idea that there was a computer that needed to be sufficiently powerful and affordable enough, but a workstation, a higher end system than a general purpose personal computer and that That was kind of the genesis of next was we've got, you know, Steve Jobs said, I think I've got a market that I could fulfill with something. Right, absolutely. In the early years at Apple, Steve created the Macintntosh, which was historic moment. It's one of the iconic products of history. We all know the nineteen eighty four commercial But one of the stories that's often overlooked is that, you know when Steve would bring that around to serious laboratories, universities, you know, classrooms, he wanted the Macintosh installed in all these places. And one of the pieces of feedback that he got from so many leading, you know we're talking Nobel Prize winning computer scientists, physicists, they would say, look, Steve so You know, you have a really cool little computer there. It's fun for writing and it's fun for drawing. But take a look at all these big giant supercomputers in my laboratory right here. I'm pretty sure this little Macintosh with the smiley face is not really gonna stand up to what I need here. That was the kind of feedback you would get. So one of the dreams that he had uh, you know, over time It didn't occur to him right away. It was kind of a you know something that happened over a few years. He realized that the next stage after the Macintosh was going to be what's called a three M computer. And this is a super advanced for the time for the mid to late nineteen eighties, a very advanced computer that can do the latest modeling, calculations, has the potential for artificial intelligence, one of the other Lesser known stories about Steve Jobs, He really wanted AI on this thing in the late eighties. And he realized that, you know, for him to really make his mark on history because that's what Steve always wanted. He wanted to be a figure who, you know wasn't just creating cool things, but was you was pushing forward the trajectory of where humankind was going He realized that you know he needs to develop something that scientists can use and university researchers and even intelligence agencies at one point. And this was the genesis of nextxt C compputer. He said, I'm going to take what I've been doing at Apple and I'm going to step it up a level. I'm going to leave, I'm going to start my own company. And with this new, even cooler computer than the Macintosh, I'm going to change the world Yeah. and with his, you, with his people that he assured h John Scully, we're not major people, but we're actually major people at Apple that he was just going to take along along for the ride But you mentioned so There is this three M computer. That's the goal I don't know. I mean, one of the lessons I guess Steve Jobs did have to learn is priority is we're kind of all over the place, right? I mean, he famously wanted a beautiful factory They spent a lot of money on their on their facilities And also even when it came to computer specs, right? they computer they ended up with all of this time goinging around and having not just him but the other people who worked with universities, I think Daniel Lewin, who is a key figure in the book. and a key figureate next. Like they I get the impression from your book that they put in a lot of time to understand the market understand what This computer needed to be As Steve kind of like prioritized it The computer they ended up with did not fulfill priorities of their customers. like it was that was the whole premise of the company. And when it got to the point where that product came It was not a product that they wanted No, absolutely. It was not what they wanted. And yeah, Steve Steve and Nx computer, they kept making wild promises that they couldn't keep to their customers. But here's what was happening. And this was the psychology of Steve Jobs at the time. So you know he was pushed out of Apple. He was resentful. He was so deeply angry at John Scully, who was the CEO. A lot of what he did was to get back at Apple and get back at John Scully. I mean, you know I can't personally imagine just the deep pain of having spent my entire twenties building one of the most successful computer companies ever and then having that torn away from me and being pushed out and told that I'm no longer needed Steve had his problems and he know he was difficult, but he was really sidelined in those years in eighty and, you know, was was pushed out. So, you know, what Steve was doing, he wasn't thinking clearly about what the market needed from him. he wasn't thinking about What the world truly wanted from him, what people actually wanted and this is what they told him is that, you we want a machine that can solve our problems, which means, you know we want something that we can use for an advanced physics experiment. know we want you know like the CIA would approach him and they would say we want something we can use for satellite imagery, very advanced at the time But Steve wasn't thinking in terms of what his customers wanted. He was thinking in terms of what he could show people that was so brilliant that it would blow them away. They would knock down this door to his headquarters and they would just want to buy up the farm and take all the next computers they could. He even had a dream during these years. he really wanted to build So this factory, he set up a fact a manufacturing plant in Fremont, California across the Bay from the N headquarters. and his dream was that people would fly in from all over the world and they would have their next computer, which is a perfect beautiful cube made of this beautiful magnesium metal that was so exotic, You know, they would stand there at the factory line and see the motherboard being created and he only used robotic arms You know, And this is back in the eighties, you know, we're not talking like tech today So advanced for its time and they would make the motherboard and then somebody would put it in the cube and the cube would come off the assembly line and then they would get to, you know, pick it up and take it home and you know have their brilliant new computer. Of course, you know, if that had actually happened, then we would all be using next computers today. So obviously it didn't succeed by any measure. And this was his greatest flaw during these years. It was the mismatch between what he thought was his brilliant vision and what the people around him, the actual businessmen and business executives and women were were telling him like, you know, the world doesn't want a computer just because it's a cube, they want something that will allow them to use powerful software that has specific, you know purposes and he just wouldn't listen Yeah, it it's Fascinating because you can see within him in your book Brilliance, right? Like he had some really brilliant ideas But they were uncoupled from any kind of responsibility about what the business needed, right? The business, I almost get the sense And I don't know if you spell it out, but I almost get the sense that, you know, the business was there as a pretense for him to do the cool stuff that he wanted to do and that it was like the business had a premise that then he just ignored because he wanted because he wanted the magnesium case and like All of this impracticality that that was cool. Like there's no doubt about it. It was cool, but like it didn't lead in a way that's weird if you remember Steve Jobs when he returned to Apple, where there was much more pragmatism about it. It was cool, but also he was often very pragmatic. In the next era, it's like, I mean, maybe does it come down to that There was nobody there to tell him he was wrong or at least nobody he would listen to. Well, he did listen to people. So you know, he would listen, but he had this thing called the Hero head roller coaster, which was this kind of psychological effect he had on people. So you know, if you work for Steve Jobs, one day you're a hero with the most B really ideas ever and he loves you And then the next day you're head and everything you're doing is just crap. He would call it literally and he would say redo this, do the software again This was, you know, both a strength of his, but it was also a weakness and it depended on, you know, like what he was working on. It was a strength because he was so talented at spotting great people and getting what he needed out of them. He could this is what every single nextxt computer employee told me that the place was just of any place that they had worked in their entire careers in Silicon Valley, It was the most creative, the most pressure cooker, the most visionary, smartest place I've ever worked. And that's because Steve Jobs was just so so tough on what he demanded from them. He really knew how to bring the best out of them. But then the flip side of that is that he could quickly turn cruel. I mean, he was so demanding and so perfectionist that his teams would present him with really good ideas and they would say, this is what the market wants right now. They would, for example, you know, they would set up a massive distribution network, One of the stories in the book. So Danel Lewin, his second in command during these years, was setting up an IBM partnership and they were going to license the next step, So the operating system through IBM. IBM was the leading computer company of the day. That's an example of something that could have actually changed the course of technology Today, yeah, any PC, you know, we mightt have the Windows option, but then next computer's next step might actually be the operating system that we use today But Steve, you know, he decided, I don't like IBM, you know, this idea is And I'm going to blow up this relationship. So the IBM deal just just died off in the end and he self sabotaged. I mean, he it really is a tragedy in a way because he was given everything he needed by some of the top people in technology at the time and he dismissed them and blew it off and he sewed D he sowed the foundations of his own coming demise, his brief demise before he could recover. So you mentioned it there One of the things that really has lingered from reading your book I didn't quite realize just how big the missed opportunities were. And that what you just said is one of the key points in the book, I think, which is there's a moment where Microsoft is not yet a colossus Microsoft has not yet kind of cracked with Windows becoming the de facto standard for computers And there is a moment where Nxt, which has a lot of technical advantages in terms of its software. And in terms of app building, U just it's really interesting technically And they get this deal with IBM case you make in the book is there is a scenario there where if Steve Jobs Goes down that path comes windows instead of windows. and like you said Steve just says, I don't want to do that. and that's it. Like enormous business opportunity just blown out the window Right, Well, when I was researching the book, I had trouble figuring out you know, what the heck was going on in his head during these moments. And I had to do a lot of really deep research just understanding from the people around him what he was saying and what he, you know, what was he I would ask them like what was he writing on the whiteboard What I mean, why does any You know, supposedly a brilliant visionary like Steve Jobs line up a deal with IBM and then just blow it up because he just doesn't want to work with them. Well One of the things it came down to was his need for control. and this was something that he had to temper during these years. So we all know, I mean, this is a well known part of him. Steve Jobs was a control freak and that's why, you know, he built the walled garden at Apple that he's so famous for. He he really wanted hardware and softare software to be unified and work together and that's one of the reasons why he succeed. That's why Apple is still you know, a massive company today. And but in these years, so this was at Steve Jobs in his early thirties He understood the need for control and he even structured Ne computer around keeping it a private company so he would not have to go public and lose control again, like what happened to him at Aight. So the entire system was highly tightly controlled, also very secretive. He said and I looked at a lot of this footage of him that hasn't been broadcast before and he would be giving talks in conference rooms to the employees and he would say, I want this to be a very secretive company. Do not The only thing you can say is I work at Nxt compomputer. Nobody knows what we're working on This all comes down to his need to make sure that control is his. and even if you know, a great deal comes along the way. If that deal is going to wrest control away from Steve Jobs in any way, then he's going to blow it up and he's going to walk away. And that's what IBM he feared was doing. The IBM deal was great I mean, the operating system that Steve was making was going to be on every single well, every single IBM workstation at least out there. And then Steve just said to heck with it because he didn't want to lose control of the hardware and software bundle, the next cube bundled with next st. he was fearred that he was fearing that IBM was going to, you know, take that away from him by putting it on their computers. So that's just one example. I mean, you know, Another good example, Ross Perot The presidential candidate, you know, for I can I'm old enough to remember him and I'm sure a lot of people can. He was a major investor in N compomputer, but Steve also blew up that relationship because Ross, who was a military government contractor was going to line up technology contracts with the intelligence agencies and, you know, Steve Jobs being the hippie at heart is decided that he didn't want that. You know, he wanted you know, he wanted that control over his image and he wanted a computer that would democratize things instead of be handed off to a government. So another lost opportunity. immagine if today that had worked out, Steve Jobs might be the world's biggest intelligence agency, you know, he might be like you from James Bond, the character with all the Gadget cs now. I'm glad you mentioned that because I was going to mention that is the next enormous missed opportunity business opportunity anyway, which is Thanks to Ross Peru. U And also thanks to the fact that the next computer ended up being kind of overs spepected, but also overpriced for the target market. It turns out it fell into the perfect market for the intelligence community to analyze those satellite photos and all of that And I can I can hear him because I do remember Ross Perot quite well I can hear him reasoning with Steve Jobs who's like, you know, he's invested a lot of money in next at this point. He's like, look We can sell a lot of next cubes to the NSA and the CIA and like it will be a fat government contract which You know, they don't care how much our computers cost and they will buy a lot of them and we will make a lot of money, which allows the company to continue to progress And the way you put it in the book is Steve basically is like, now, I don't want to take money from the government And that's it. And like That's it He just It's I mean, on one level, I guess I admire it, but it does it on a business level He is company that we know it's fate and we know that it basically is going to fall on very hard times. it's really staggering to read these stories where these doors are open for him and he just says I'm not interested and refuses to walk through. Right. It was shocking. I mean, when I was learning about these stories, I was just thinking like, come on man, Steve, like, Ebody knows what's going to happen here. It's so obvious where this is going to end and you keep making the worst possible decision.. So yeah, I mean, it's I still crack up when I think about some of these stories. And you know the people who lived it still look back at it and think that was so irrational and so bizarre I don't know why I put myself through that at next compputer, but you know, it's it's a story that, you know, they carry with them. The thing about ye, you know, so like this rejecting government contracts for rejecting IBM There's something really fundamental here that's going on and It's the problems that Steve is having realizing what it actually takes to build a business versus just being the artist. So you know, we see during this period Steve the artist and he's a brilliant artist. He can spot a beautiful design. His cube was inspired by you know Zen philosophy and architecture and you know, he hires the best German designer to come out and make it for him. He knows what he needs aesthetically and he knows that the future is going to look something like this that you know, we're going to have an operating system with these drag and drop icons. That's what he was developing as early as the eighties, which is just incredible. when you think about the vision Steve even reflected on this at one point in an interview. He said that, you know vision is not enough. One of the lessons he learned in this period is that the execution is really the key. And you know, what is execution? If you're building a business, it's you know, you need the distribution network, you need the reliable supply chain, you need a team who you can call on and trust you know, you need reliable contracts and, you know, especially if you're in advanced tech, those are corporate and federal government contracts What Steve had failed to see early in these years is that Building a business You know, it's unfortunate like, you know, you can take your principles as far as you want, but ultimately, you have to build the business, which means you have to sell. And if you're selling a computer to one market, in this case, university researchers and they're not buying it, then you have to find another market. Once you grow, you know so fine, sell to the federal government, sell to the big corporations that Steve hated But once you grow, then you're in a position to have the scale and the profitability where you can make the decisions you want. This episode of uppgrade is brought to you by Claude from Anthropics I have been using Claude for a lot of like littleittle technical code problems like that not even code CSS. I had a CSS issue on six colors the other week. Because I have Glen writing for me now, Glen Fleischben And Glen is I don't want to say Glenenss making trouble because that's not accurate. I've internalized all of the weird quirks of our CSS and know like not to do certain things because the CSS isn't right. And Glenn doesn't have those limitations. He just writes what he think is the best way to do his format. And what I discovered was that he was bumping into areas where our CSS was just lacking. So like he was putting images in a bulleted list and the way it works with our markdown bulleted list is indented because that's what bulleted listard are. But the images are outside of the bulleted list and therefore aren't indented. And I said to him, Glen, you can't put images in a bulleted list because then they look like they're outside it and they break the the level. If there's another bullet afterward, it looks all wrong Well, I just I showed Claude my site CSS and I explained this problem and I said, what I'd like is another ID for our figure class in our HTML doesn't indent like a bulleted list so that I can solve this problem for Glenn And, you know It didn't take Claude more than a very short amount of time to say, I have two different options for you, which is better for your site. I was able to take that code, run it on my development site. test it, makeake sure that it was right, M a few tweaks myself happy with it. And I was able to deploy that. And I did that twice for two different CSS issues brought about by Glenn being clever. than our CSS. And I was able to fix them directly without going T the designer who did the CSS who hasn't worked on it in ten years or another designer who hasn't worked on it in two or three years I was able to get Clawed to help me with it and then test it and then deploy it in a matter in a very short amount of time. So just so useful for stuff like that or for adapting one of my newsletter script that I have for S Colors members to do an audio version of our newsletter for members now, which is a podcast that reads it aloud. And I took the one script that I wrote, and then I had clawed code work on it with me to generate a podcast that I was happy with, which required huge amounts of iteration. But I'm very proud of the result. Um, So, you know, just Problems big and small that I've run into And Clouudd has been there for me. It's really great. It is the AI for minds that don't stop it good enough. 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And I And in fact, the way I chose to deploy it is it was rewriting a file on my disk But the official version of that script was on my server. and that meant that every time I wanted to import Claud's changes, I would openp them and beB edit, do a diff compare the two versions prorove every change. Now you don't have to do that, but I did that and it made me feel like I had taken more ownership over knowing what code I was running I could still got all of the benefits of Clawed code If you're considering having a new tool to your setup, you want to know you're in good company. compomanies like Stripe, Shopify, and Pfizer trust Anthropic with a rollout of AI in their businesses. For problems worth solving, get started with Claud today. Claud. Ai slash upgrade. That's CLAu dE. Ai slash upgrade. And check out Claudd Pro, which includes access to all the features mentioned in this ad cllaudot Ai slash upgrade. Thank you to Claud for supporting this show Oh. of relay as a u Aside projectm working on a bunch of stuff around Apple at fifty. And one of the things that I did a bit of a dive into was that early dynamic between Jobs and Wasniak. and what struck me about the Apple one and especially the Apple two story is I think Steve Jobs had a very particular vision. his vision always about Taking high technology and making products that felt like consumer products, that felt like appliances. And the Apple two was the first iteration of that. The MC was the next iteration of that. And I think ultimately we saw his vision play out with the iPod and the iPhone and the iMac iPad, right Reading your book, what it also made me think is He was just not an enterprise guy. Like he kept, I think his vision was really about People in their homes And And then you're like, IBM, what could be more monolithic and corporate? or the federal government and especially the CIA or the NSA, these are And yeah, I think some of it was his kind of hippie background But I also think he was just so focused on kind of empowering the individual with technology and I I just don't think he got any joy out of the idea of empowering the, you know, giant institutions with computer technology. and that's the best read I've got on why he ran away from IBM and the government is that like it's just not what he was trying to do with his life Well, I don't think he wanted to do that with his life either. I agree completely. And I think that he was you know, he was just feeling, u, It felt like a betrayal of his own values a betrayal, you know, this is the guy who had the famous photograph and he was flipping the birds to IBM. the IBM building. Yeah ye in New York U you know, that that's who he was. It was so core to his identity that he could not imagine himself going to an enterprise software contractor and selling azillion software packages to Compact, for example, That was just not his thing. And he even said that. he remarked on this to a lot of the people around him. He would say, you know, I just don't like this. This is not ennjoyable. It's just not who I am. but you know, it's a company that I can run And, you know, that journey you know, I had a really interesting conversation with one of the key software developers at Next compomputer. onene of the one of the indie software developers who develop forX and He said something really interesting that stuck with me that You know, this was a very dark period for Steve because he kept trying to get access to markets that were not opening to him. You know, one of those markets, students in their dorm rooms. Okaykay, well, his computer is way overpriced. He's charging them basically a year's tuition to give them a computer in their dorm room. And he's telling them, you should cure cancer with this. That's literally a quote of Steve's You know, these markets are not opening, but that's really who he wants to be. And the darkness that kind of took over him in this period was because he found himself making these compromises. But This one developer he remarked, and he knew Steve well He said that this was in it It was an unusual stage that he needed to go through because if Sted had not been put through that furnace, like that blast of know here's what it takes to build an actual corporation that can sell to other corporations He would have become, you know this guy wandering in the desert with, you know spring sprung hair and, you know, a giant beard, you know, just kind of talking nonsense to people. He almost thought that this was a kind of refinement. And you know, it's like a lot of great leaders out there. and it's not just Steve. a lot of I've studied a lot of presidential biographies lot leaders who can communicate have gone through this and it's a it's a furnace blast that forces you to take one good hard look. Is your idea really a great idea? or are you just so absorbed in what it is that you want to do that you just can't you can't become like that diamond in the rough. You can't be crutched a bit by your environment and see what the environment around you actually needs from you in thinking about your book, one of the things that I was realizing is Steve. ind I mean, Apple was targeting customer base that is sort of was harmonious with what Steve Jobs kind of wanted to do. And when he left kind of needed, right There were lawsuits and threatened lawsuits and all sorts of other things. He kind of needed to run away from Apple and in fact promised not to compete with them In hindsight feels like Not that they didn't have those opportunities, but if Steve wanted to do what he wanted to do, that was the root of it. The fatal the fatal mistake was right at the beginning, which was he was running away from Apple because he had to. but Apple was the place that could address bringing technology to the masses rather than like I mean, because the tragedy of this is that Steve Jobs did not want to be an enterprise software and hardware entrepreneur, and he founded an enterprise hardware and software company. So it's like it was just a mismatch So is one of the things he learned Um When he went back to Apple, he he he learned that this was what he wanted to do and this is This is this is who he wanted to be because I mean, next was Fortunate to get a phone call from Ellen Hancock and Gilamilio and get bought by Apple so that they could sell and be done But like was I guess what I'm really asking here is the big question, which is Did Steve Jobs learn from the next experience because doesn't read like somebody who Got it at next. I feel like he never got at it next got thrown a lifeline and then was able to bring those experiences back to Apple where he could put it all together. I don't unless correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't really read that there was ever a moment when he was at next where suddenly everything clicked and he became the Steve Jobs we would come to know Yeah, so there was no moment. You're right. There was no single moment. Maybe the closest thing to that moment would be the collapse of the next hardware division when they had to throw out the cubes. and one guy literally tried to burn a cube. It wouldn't burn because it was made super you know, the super exotic alloy that like you couldn't find anywhere and it was hyper resistant to flammability. So just like a funny story about how ridiculously perfectionist Ne was. like you literally cannot, you know point a torch at it and make it burn. And that's what Steve wanted. He wanted the perfect cube I think that, you know, so it was a series of lessons over time and no, Steve did not learn all of them and he actually did make some of the mistakes again, but you know, over time, he was corrected. So it was by no means like, you know, like a Here today Steve is doing something bad and tomorrow he's doing something good. It was a very tough and winding road and the lessons were often taught to him in sequences and it would happen more than once. And then finally, you know after the fifth time of something going wrong, Steve has to step out of his reality distortion field and has to take a hard look at what he's doing U So I think that, you know, if there's one big lesson that he did learn, it's how to channel the reality distortion properly. That's what he was so famous for, right? I mean, that's what like even from his youngest days at Apple, he could hold up that motherboard, you know at the Homebrew compomuting Cub and you know, he could just sell its people. And you know, he got the check from Mike Marcla started Apple. I mean, not, you know, back then that was really unusual. I know today that's fairly common getting a major paycheck for a startup But he was the pioneer for this kind of thing You know, During the middle years at Next compomputer, this is when reality distortion. hit its limit and then reality started distorting back at Steve. and reality started telling him like this can't work anymore. You know, you succeeded because you were twenty two and you were cool and smart. But you know, when you're thirty two, that's not going to work because you know people see you now as growing mature you have to start behaving as a businessman will and you can't behave you know like a youy young, rebellious guy with cool ideas. It just doesn't fly anymore. So that's, you know, if there's one transformation that Steve went through, it's that transformation. It's, you know, realizing that you have to step out of the reality distortion field you know, you have to take a good look at things like balance sheets and distribution networks and you know all the foundational software, the enterprise software, the whole grid that exists underneath that one beautiful product that Steve was always chasing. And it's ironically, once he started focusing on all the nooks and crannies and started thinking about, you know, this coding element, this, you know, this web object software that makes we web pages, he even admitted in an interview at one point, he said, this technology so tech does not change the world a very unstieved thing to say It does not change the world, but it makes certain things easier. And he said, I'll make software that can make it easier to sell things online. And this became the basis for a lot of the Dell computer and its success on the internet back in the nineties Once he realized that, you, once he realized like you don't need the big world changing idea, you need the infrastructure around it first Then ironically he was able to return to Apple and recover and rebuild Apple. And, you know, because of that infrastructure that he built at nextext, he was able to make IOS and you know, the iPhone and so forth possible Yeah, I mean his his, uh, recruitment of Avi Tanian basacing next on Unix and you know, that that is a thing that not only got next bought by Apple, but E every Apple product now basically runs a variant of what was next step, which is kind of amazing when you think about it. So there were some Good technical backing there. I will also point out like When Steve came back to Apple, It's so everybody wants to mythologize this guy and I understand why And your book does a really good job of demystifying Steve Jobs story and showing you the flaws because they are a super important part of who this person was He made a lot of bad decisions at Apple in the early days too. Nobody wants to talk about them. We only want to talk about the good ones. Nobody really wants to talk about why the G four cube happened and why it was a complete misfire. Nobody wants to talk about Xerve which was again, an attempt to kind of like, reach an enterprise market and it was a failure too. L there were a bunch of things that Apple tried in the earliest days of Steve Jobs' return that were also failures He was I do believe having read your book that He he learned through failure, he was humbled a little bit, realized he needed to step outside himself. I think you said that really well. and also was finally put back in charge of a brand in Apple. that was trying to reach the people he always wanted to reach, you know, because he'd never wanted it be a product for IBM or for the Defense Dpartment, he wanted to reach people in their homes. And once he was back at Apple, haaha. He could finally do that And that was where he found his most success. So Boy. Again, I just want to endorse your book again Steve Jobs in exxile, Jeffrey Kane. It's out tomorrow basically, may nineteenth It is It's an important pathway to understanding All of Steve Jobs, I think, or at least all of Steve Jobs as a business person because You can see the brilliance and you can see the flaws and there's really I think it's it's a great era of his life where it's all going on, right? And it has a happy ending, but boy, He went through a lot of suffering, much of itselff inflicted, but still a lot of suffering after after having such great success at Apple. And I think about that sometimes reading the book. It's like first John Scully. sidelines you and you leave the company you founded and then Everything happens at next. I mean, like the fact that he kept going Kind of amazing It is amazing. And a lot of people would have given up. And one of the things I found so fascinating about this story is all the different touch pointints the narrative touchpoints, if Steve had made a different decision, even just a slightly different decision at any of these many dozens of points in the story, he would have failed. He would have probably even written out of history. and then Apple would have probably gone out of business because he would not have returned. So you know next is the pivotal these are the pivotal years of the biography of Steve Jobs because if Nxt had never happened, then Apple as we know it, I would argue, would have never happened. And you know, we might we might all be using I don't know, compact PC's with next step load on them, something. I don't know. something. Although if he had made better decisions, we'd all be using PC's running next step. So there we go. There we go. Maybe IVM still, who knows? Yeah, yeah.'s anyyway, it is I agree with David Pogue and you I think this is a great of the fiftieth anniversary of Apple is to consider this part of the story where one of the founders goes away and then he comes back and famously say to the company. What happened when he was off stage in David Pogue's book? The answer is Read Steve Jobs and Exile by Jeffrey Kaine. Jeffrey, thank you so much for being on Upgrade and for talking to me about this. I really enjoyed the book. Like I said, there are moments where I'm just shaking my head, but it is so fascinating and there's so much in there that I had never heard before. You have so many great sources for people who worked at Next I really highly recommend the book and thank you so much for talking to me about it Great to be here, Jason. This episode of upgrade is also brought to you by Steam Clock A lot of mobile apps aren't great. They're just Mediocre, they're fine, they're fine. they're not broken, but they're fine. But you notice The difference, the moment you use something good. Steam clock software builds Good mobile apps for companies that care taste and making good apps that are not just ine. They' a design and development studio based in Vancouver, Canada, right by the steam cllock. There's a steam clock if you've been to Vancouver, you know. And they've been shipping IiOS and Android apps for over fifteen years. Their clients are growing tech companies that care about mobile but don't have the in house team to build something great. Steam Clock works with companies to level up their app so they can go from it's holding us back to it's pulling its weight. Some of their clients have discovered the hard way that vibe coding your way to the app store Not a great product strategy What makes Steam Clock worth calling is that is not just that their execution is good is that they will help you figure out what the right approach is. They have made so many apps. They are so good at this They will help you figure out the right approach, give you an honest read on your situation before you commit to anything. Their client apps have been downloaded over ten million times They've helped five of their clients through acquisitions. If you're building something and need a mobile team that cares as much as you do, Steam Clock is where to start. And while you could go to Vancouver, stand at the Steam Clock, spin around three times and find Steam Clock software, I recommend something else. which is to go to steamclock. com slash upgrade And get in touch that SteamClock dot com slash upgrade. Thank you to SteamClock for all the great work they do building good apps for supporting Upgrade at all of relay Time now Rask upgrade. h. I'm not good at it. I don't do it every week I know, you're warming up. The blazers are warming up. It's fine. Thomas writes him Given Apple's desire to do things on device, here we go. We got it. I'm curious how you would see personal context going wouldould having more than one device, you've spoken about using third party email clients on your Mac, so wouldon't all your email be missing from context there? Would any difference in apps between devices yield a different context on each I covered this briefly earlier, Thomas. Yes, this is a concern Don't use Apple Mail. On my devices, I use mine stream So There's a few options here. Like first off, I dont think they're going tonink. likeike I said before, I don't think they're going to sink across devices. I think it's going to be like photos. There's going to that means that yes, there will be a different context on each. The question is, does Apple do something like say You know, certain kinds of apps, calendar apps, client apps or whatever or calendars or emails or whatever can opt in being indexed and then they're into system donate donate their content Yeah to the index. Yeah, it' it's you could do it that way. Now Apple tends to roll things out just for first party clients and then at third party support later, but they change stuff. Maybe they'll change that O way this could go and I don't love it, but it could go this way I have I have my calendar in calendar with everything turned off. Because there are certain contexts where you have to add an item to the calendar And it wants to do it in the system calendar and not fantastic how And so I just have to keep that on in parallel. I do see a scenario where you might have to actually put your email in mail and then not use mail which is stupid. But it's possible that that would be the way I don't like it. I think this is why you need to support third parties if you're Apple so that you can get the best experience, but Apple I mean, Apple does this all the time where they're like We got a great new feature requires use of all of our apps. Right. And then in year two or three It comes around to others Maybe we already are in year two or three because they talked about all this stuff in twenty four It is a very interesting question. and I hope that at least for some sorts of apps, they can donate their data. Um, you know, in terms of like the differences between your devices That's how a lot of stuff is, right? Like the core stuff, like calendars and notes and things, you know kind of everywhere, but I don't know if if you don't get the exact same result on your MacBook air and then you walk down the hall with your iPhone in your hand to do it again. Is that the end of the world. like I think Most people think about this as a phone feature And And Maybe that's all it is. We don't know that, but I don't think this is going to be that big of a deal And they may not, I mean, they may not do it. That's the other thing that I' I'm open to the idea that this personal context concept is just going to get thrown away Yeah. Definitely possible. Yeah, yeah. or they they refactor it to something that's a little bit different and uses iCloud. And I mean, I honestly don't know what they're going to do Um It is one of the technical challenges that we've we've been talking about really for two years now. when ever since they announced it, there were a lot of questions about personal context that would only be answered in the fall of twenty twenty four when we o. St still asking him, Bob Rote and said Jason, have you checked out the MLB app on Vision Pro lately? I got all the baseball questions in here for you, Stehven. Great. I really like the three D game tracking during the live playing of the video. I don't think they had that enabled the last time I checked it out I was on an episode of the Vision Pros podcast, april thirtieth. episode sixty five And we talked about the MLB app. The new this season's MLB app for Vision Pro is Fantastic because they have they are now using basically like video game player models and The way MLB system works, they're tracking in real time all player movement on the field, the ball and the player and the bat. And they've turned it into like It looks like a video game. You're in a three D space And like, you see the batter swing the bat and you see the ball go where it's going and you see the all the outfielders move. and previously onng Vision Pro, this was they were all like dots You're watching dots move around But now it's like animated versions of players, like video game versions of players And it's really impressive. My experience has been that they've got it working perfectly, syncing it with the audio of so radio and this is what I heard from somebody who who wrote in and said that they had They loved it because they had a game that they couldn't watch because it was blacked out. And they put the radio on and watched the three D version of the Vision Pro and they said it was a pretty good experience. And I agree, I thought it was a pretty good experience I have yet to get the video to syn up. with the action. I don't know what the difference is there, but what you really want is the statcast data that's powering it to be in sync with what you're watching. Otherwise, like it's no fun to have the pitch come in And then ten seconds pass and then the pitch comes in on the video or the opposite, either way, it's not fun. You really want it to be in sync. Whereas the audio version Yeah, it'ss it's kind of magical actually. You're listening to a radio description of a baseball game while you're watching this video game version of the baseball game. It's pretty fun. and you can change where you are So they've done some work there. I lament The standard MLB app they updated. MOB, that app, MLB a Bat is what it used to be called. We gave it so many different awards at Mac World back in the day Yeah because it was a cutting edge iPhone app. So good And I gott to be honest, the current version of the MLB app is garbage It's just terrible boarding Like I used to be able to check really easily like what the scores were. now the scores are all like big and You have to scroll a lot and it's hard to scan it and the iPad version is bad. The phone version is bad It's just a it's a mess. and There are, you know There are so many better ways of doing a baseball app than what the current official MLB app is doing Um It's just very disappointing. So I hope, I don't know what's going on over there. It feels very much to me like they brought in a new team of people who were like given the instruction to make it identical on all platforms. And it does feel like as an iPhone user, I don't know how bad or good the Android version was. Maybe it was good and now it's bad too, but it feels to me like S somebody rolled in and said, we need a consistent experience everywhere and the new consistent experience is bad You know, so much software is made that way now. And I think it's such a mistake because how many people in the world are going to use MLB on their iPhone and their left pocket and their pixel phone and their right pocket. right? It's It's easier for them. It's, you know, they can have one design team. Prob still going to have different development teams to target the different platforms, but It's u Ss such a mistake so much of the time, I think to do that because what you end up doing is your app on all platforms is worse, right? It's not just that the iPhone app gets a little more like Android, it's that The inward app is also not as good as it could be or You know, if it's if it's on the destop and you end up using electron or something, well, then the Mac app's not as good as it could be. Its just It's so frustrating to see. It's it's not good. And it is it is kind of a trend So I hope they I hope they get it together, but Right now, it's just it's bad. But the Vision Pro to go back to that The Vision Pro app actually got And it's very interesting. It's still weird and experimental but everything on the Vision Pro is weird and experimental. But the adding the animated players makes it so much more fun So If you've got a Vision proro and you like baseball, it'sth a check out Matthias writes I have been wondering if focusing on services is the original sin for Apple poisoned everything. If this was the case would separating Apple and Google from their stores Fix it Original sin. I mean, I would say making more money than they ever really intended to on the app store and on Google Safari referrals was the original sin generated enormous amounts of revenue I think this What we at least popularly think of services is more like eyeewash to fit the services narrative by giving it some main characters because we all know that like Apple TV is not driving the services revenue It's App Store and it's Safari, you know, Google search And those other things are good and they may drive some growth and that's good Even there, I would say, Apple Care is more of a driver It's it's not the stuff that gets all the attention in services. it's Apple Care revenue and iCloud revenue and Safari search revenue and app store cut revenue and app store subscription revenue Like that's what drives it. So I think you have to look there. And so if Matthias is saying, you know, separating the app store You know, would that fix it? I mean App stores exist for a reason and I think that it's probably a good reason, but it has led them down this path. But I don't think it's just think about what the services revenue is because Apple spending money on TV shows is not what God Apple here. No, it's so small compared to the rest of it You know, back in I guess this was in twenty twenty one During Epic versus Apple, a Phil Schiller email came out during Discovery. And this is quoting from that email. We'll put a link in the show notes. Do we think our sevven thousand thirty split will last forever I'm a staunch supporter of the seven thousand thirty split in keeping it simple and consistent across our stores I don't think that seven thousand thirty will last unchanged forever I think someday we will see enough challenge from another platform or web based solution to want to adjust our model. I think the question moves from if to when and how And then he actually goes on to talking about Like he lays out an example Again quoting from the email I' sorry says a long quote but I think it's important Just as one thought, we are making over one billion a year in profit from the app store Is that enough to then think about a model where we ratchet down from seven thousand thirty to seven thousand five twenty five or even eighty twenty If we can maintain a one billion dollars a year run rate I know that's controversial But I just tee it up as another way to look at the size of the business, what we want to achieve and how we stay competitive I think Siller had it right in that email which he sent The discovery was in twenty twenty one. Do you know when he sent that email? twenty thirteen twenty eleven. twenty eleven. Yeah Come on. Yeah Yeah, they they They made a choice, and this is something that I know people have talked about on other podcasts about the Tim Cook era, but like this is a great example of that whether it was Tim Cook driving it or whether it was u the CFO driving it or whatever. The fact is that under Tim Cook's watch, they made a decision evenven though Phil Schiller was like The A Store was never meant to be this huge of a revenue generator. and we are it is such an asset to the iPhone And it'll get us in trouble And they said, we are willing to do all of that because we are making, we're just rolling That's what they decided and You know, I know we talk about this a lot, this idea that Apple acts like the underdog and doesn't understand that they're the bully now But this is a great example of that where Apple saying we're never going to give an inch and we need to take every dollar is an understandable behavior from when Steve Jobs came back to Apple M And it doesn't really fly anymore with anybody. And I think it endangers, I mean, when Matthias asked this, he's saying separating Apple from the apppp store. It's like, that would be very bad for Apple. I think that would be bad for users. But like, do you want to risk that? in order to take every dollar off the table instead of only Some of the dollars plus you would have forgive me because I've ranted about this on up greatade before, but like the classic one is I don't think because of Apple's status as a platform owner they would do badly in a more competitive situation. I think they have so many other advantages that they would continue to do well. And I think in the EU, we're seeing that. With all the changes the EU has made, I don't think it's appreciably affected Apple's business at all However, Apple seems to be just afraid competition Not that they couldn't compete. As I've said before, what's better than competition is not having competition. and If you can just not You force everybody to do what you want then that's great because you can charge what you want and make a lot of money. I think that they could compete and compete well And I think yes, I it's hard not to look at that Phil Schiller email and think of the road notot taken. for sure. Yes. original if you're looking for original sins, there's one Um lastast question, Joey says randomly Does the upgrade intro song have a little bit of mic or someone's voice mixed into it? I feel like I can hear a very quiet man's voice but I'm not really sure So does it It doesn't does sound like there's somebody in there at the very beginning going like in the background. I think it's something that's from a loop I don't have the original like multi set upp version, but those two files that we play For upgrade, there's the like the synth version, and then there's the electric guitar version. I asked for one after we got the other and There's the one that I use I sneak into the show sometimes and then the one that Mike uses U And now Jim uses that one. so I don't get to sneak anything into the show anymore. But those all come from before the show started and they're all from the hard drive of Chris Breen, who generated the theme song Um And I think it's just an artifact of like a loop that he's using there U But I don't know. If it's anybody's voice, it's Chris Breens, but I think it's probably if it's actually just something that's from one of the loops he used in building the the upgrade theme song. So I think of it I think it's there every time too, Joey It's not us. I'll put it that way You want to hear me on a theme song, I'm on half the robot or not theme songs, but that's about it Me and John we're on those. Um, And that brings us to the end. Stehven, thank you so much for sitting in for Mike. I appreciate it. It's good to have a It's good again to talk about technology on a podcast with you because we just normally don't do this in public. So it's fun. Yeah, thank you for having me Andh yeah people should go check out that book. It's going to be awesome. Yeah. Yeahah. Steve Jobs in exile. it's it's, I mean Boy, there's a lot of bad decisions being made in there. You just got to go in knowing this is going to not be a story of Steve Jobs leaving Apple in triumphing It is the opposite. He leaves Apple and it's bad And then it comes back to Apple and it's okay So people should check that out. People should check out What Stephven is doing five twelve pixels d. net and the connected podcast here on relay wereere you and a couple other gentlemen chat about tech topics and do silly fun things Yeah. There's Jes Japril all the time all the time. And yeah, we like upgrade. we're gearing up for our WBC games, you'all have your draft, We' have the Rokies. Yeah. it's WC is like you haven seen Indiana Jones where he's running away from the big rock. That's kind of how I feel right now about WBC. likeike it's just, it's coming for us. Yeah, it's true. That's true It is. It's going crush us if we don't keep moving Everybody out there, thank you for listing. seend us your feedback, follow up and questions at upgradefeedback. comot Thanks to our members who support us and let us keep doing this with Upgrade pllus this week, Stephven and I are going to talk a little bit about some Mac OS security G upgradeplus. com. You can find us on YouTube by searching for upgrade podcast. Thanks to our sponsors this week. We had Delete Me Squarespace Claud and Steam Clock Thanks again to all of you for listening. Mike, we'll be back next week. Thank you to Stepven one last time Until next time, Stehen Hackett S goodbye your