Leaving the Group and Moving Forward

Hey, you're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind Well, here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with progressives save over nine hundred dollars on average Pop over to progressive d. com answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by In fact, ninety nine percent of their auto customers earn at least one discount Visit progressive. com and see if you can enjoy a little cash backack Progressive casualty Inurance Company and Affiliates. National averageed twelve month savings of nine hundred and forty six dollars by new customers surveyed, who saved with Progressive between June twenty twenty four and may twenty twenty five. Potential savings will vary I'm Kiana and I leveveled up my business with Shopify Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turn back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop I'm addicted Start your free trial at shhopify d. com The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of Lipsn or its affiliates. guuest accounts or personal recollections shared from their own perspectives. References to specific individuals, organizations or groups are presented as commentary, opinion, and personal experience and should not be interpreted as definitive statement of fact. guest is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. Bose I thought, well maybe this won't do anything and it'll just be a story I can tell of like that one time I went to see an energy healer. And on the other hand, I thought maybe this is gonna like heal all my shit and all my drama and everything in one go And the ultimate consequence of that was that I ended up in a psychiatric ward Welcome back to Was I in a cult or welcome if you've never been before. Yeah, welcome if this is your first time with us. We'll go easy on you. I'm Tyler Mesum. I'm Liz Iacuzzi. We're also joined by Rob who pipes in every once in a while and I'm back, baby says something odd or unique. or Rbert's a big fan favorite. Robbert's a big fan favorite. Only for the big fans. We get We get emails and they say, we love you, Tyler and Liz? Oh, and Rob, you're always like the actually kick You're like the neighbor that comes over in the sitcom and pokes his head in. I'm surprised I'm not the scrappy do of the podcast. justust like a late season edition that doesn't really add much, just enrages the key fans. Right, you're like Sam in different strokes You're like neighb we never see from the neck down because that alsose is also how we experience you The shoe Rob, the Steve Erkele of sorts You have Stefan. So we have a great story today. We have a wild story about magic. Real magic The kind you're not supposed to be able to learn about from a book or from a man named Steve. Steve We'll get to Steve. We will get to Steve. And who doesn't want to believe in magic? Right, Our guests today, like many of us Had a very active imagination growing up And for her, almost too active And so when Hogwarts didn't send her that letter for wizarding schoolchool, she turned to the next best thing. Acting Yes, something much more stable than being a wizard acting Today our guest is Hannah Murray. She's a writer, a former actor, and yes, for a lot of people, she is forever Cassie from the show Skins and Gilly from Gam of Gami of Throne. I think it's pronounced Thrones. Never heard of it, okay, cool. But acting as everybody here listening knows, isn't always fun, imaginative play And while Hannah was shooting a particularly intense scene for a movie she was doing Someone told her about a healer Which of course led her to, well, magic Yes, real magic The story isn't about fame or fantasy or even magic, exactly. It's about what happens when someone who has spent her life inside stories, stories about other worlds, other realities. goes to get healing and finds a group. Just a group that promises access to something big or something Ancient something secret. Secretive And Like all these groups start at first for Hannah, it worked. It really did until it really really didn't Please welcome Today's wonderfully accented guest camera here. U Hannah, welcome to our show. I've been so excited to interview you. Thank you. If you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself My name is Hannah Murray. I grew up in a town in the southwest of England called Bristol, which is fairly big city to the UK. and my parents both worked at the university Now normally, this is where I would tell you about Bristol's University mascot because I I respect Tets of journalism As you see, the UK schools don't necessarily have mascots. They do have like a coat of arms normally, or they have very important mottes in Latin. So no giant foam hawk, no angry badger in a jersey Honestly, no mascot may be the most British mascot possible However, I will assign them a mascot Bristol apologies. Sorry, so sorry Terribly sorry. Terribly sorry Yeahah, sorry. Here it' for the apologies. Here here apologies. Here There we terrible you care. Also, we're so sorry we just did that. So terribly sorry Terribly sorry.ry. Terribly sorry we're doing this.es. Would you like to apologise to Rob? Rob you're sorry? I am so sorry to Ciny. Moving on No terrible. Terrible. Don't make me do accent. Terrible. I'm good at everything else. Yeah, I was an only child, very long for only child. I grew up spendning a lot time on my own because I didn't have siblings and I was very imaginative and sort of fascinated by yeah, like stories and stories about magic specifically. I guess a lot of people of my generation were really obsessed with the Harry Potter books and kind of believed that one day we would get this amazing invitation to this school and learn how to study magic My imagination was very vivid I sometimes foundound like playing with other kids at school, these sort of imaginative games, there would often be a point where they were like, you believe in this too much, you're weird And I was so like, but I thought we were all believing in it. and we were all playing in the same world and it was real to all of us. And they were kind of like, no, you think it's too real. There's something like slightly wrong with you I can see the sort of seeds of became my career and became my career at quite a young age, because I desperately wanted to be an actor I was eleven and I went to see a friend in a youth group kind of production. and just I watched these kids my own age pretending to be like aliens and rabbits and mice. and I just felt this like bolt of something. I suddenly felt like I was on the stage. And that was like, yeah, light bulb changed everything. I want to be an actor now It had quite a nice, stable childhood and then adolescence hit And it was like a storm of emotions. sort of depression and self loathing. and I started smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, smoking weed at a very young age, really, like sort of thirteen. And I found alcohol and other things to be the way of getting out of my head temporarily. I was kind of aat a kid. Yeah yeah, think My plan was that I would audition for drama school and hope maybe I could get in and drama schools are very selective and very competitive. And so it kind of was feeling like a bit of an impossible dream. Like I didn't know how it could ever really happen And then at this Uiata group that I was in, one day, they said, o, there's this TV show a film in Bristol, they're looking for teenagers. They were having open auditions and they went. And then yeah I had a round of auditions I kept getting kind of more and more excited that it felt like it might become real. and then I got offered the partot on my birthday which was amazing. First real audition, first professional job. Children, if you're listening, this is not normally how this happens. No, it's not. I had no idea. No one in my family did anything even adjacent to the industry. It was a real sort of baptism of fire. I think it's like you had to learn really quickly how to be in front of a camera And I think was, you know, I was good at it. I learned quite quickly how to be in front of a camera be on screen. And for those who haven't seen Skins, just tell us your role So I played a character called Cassie who, you know focuses on a kind of group of teenagers who are all sort of sixteen and seventeen. And I was one of the most troubled of that group. She was a character kind of struggling with an eating disorder struggling with a lot of drug use and kind of self destructive behavior As somebody I like I thought he was sending me a message and things that he wasn't What was the message E All right. It wasn't you, was it Allan? I don't tell you what to do, Cassie, I'm just a taxi driver So like Who's telling me to eat It was a pretty heavy role to take on at that age, but it was also a really meaty, kind of satisfying role at the same time. Okay, so for anyone who wasn't a British teenager in two thousand seven or quite frankly, an American teenager illegally streaming things on a laptop that had multiple viruses, skins was huge Skins. The show followed a group of teenagers in Bristol, dealing with sex, drugs, mental health, family chaos, identity, and friendship. What made it stand out was its rawness. Episodes often centered on a different character's perspective, portraying adolescents with a level of honesty that felt revolutionary. And Hannah's character Cassie wasn't just part of the ensemble Cassie Ainsworth became the ultimate internet icon. She was the heartbreaking soul of Generation onene, which is what they called the first. teenagers on the show. Seasons one and two. Have you seen the show? Did you watch the show? I haven't, but I watched the show. Yeah, to right. I mean, it wasn't really available in America. I suspect it is now, but no. Yeahah. I kind of want to watch it now She was whimsical, daydreaming, she spoke in a breathless whisper sort of fairyale like behind her whimsy, the character was hiding a devastating battle. anorexia bit of life imitating art, perhaps, Cassie had an uncanny ability to find intense beauty and things other people completely just Walked past She would stare at an ordinary tree, a passing cloud piece of trash blowing in the wind Absolute wonder. And it was always capped off by her sincere trademark phrase Oh wow He Yeah Ohah Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh oh wow. Apparently it became quite a phrase to say in the UK. Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow. I wish I was British It's Not too late How did you deal with that Instant fame. It just felt really surreal to me. I thought I really wanted To be famous, I thought it would make my life exciting and glorious and amazing And then as soon as I started having people come on to me in the street, I really didn't like and I was very shy, teenager I didn't know how to deal with the attention. So I was just quite overwhelmed by it all but still really wanted more acting jobs because I loved the work so much. So I went to university, carried on acting while I was there and did three movies over three years as well as an English degree Soes, I finished university, got cast in Game of Thrones kind of within a couple of weeks of graduating. This would have been twenty eleven. I think I graduated and then filmed series two of Game of Thrones. It was a very popular, but everyone was talking about it all the time I couldn't connect that there was this massive cultural phenomenon And it was also my job to be in it And for those of you not from Planet Earth or named Tyler Mesum, Game of Thrones was huge, okay Hge She just outed me. Yes. I I haven't watched the complete game of Thr own series. I started it. and then I never I never finished it, but You can't watch everything. There's a lot of stuff out there. You know, there's a lot of stuff out there. Regardless, it premiered on HBO in twenty eleven and became one of the biggest things television has ever done I mean, there was noble families, clawing for power, actual dragons, and also the most insane and often for me most satisfying deaths ever. scene, do you remember Ramseay Bolton's dead Oh yeah, I remember it. No. Oh you don't because you haven't seen it. Rob, did you haven't seen it either. I'm so sorry. I'm alone on this island Yeah It's so good. It was so satisfying. It still sits with me. I'm like Get 'em, eat 'em might say something about me, but anyway, the ones who know what I'm talking about if you know you know know you know. I'm sure there's lots of people out there who know and a lot of people who have lost respect for me for not having watched it regardless, over eight seasons Game of Thrones gave us epic battles, shocking betrayals and an estimated three hundred F bombs Most of them, apparently, were hurled by a very angry man named the Hound. Oh yes, the hound, of course. Yes. Yeah By the final season, episodes were pulling in about how many listeners we have on this show about forty million viewers worldwide, whichich isn't bad. isn't bad And Hannah played Gilly, which I didn't gush about this to her too much when I was interviewing her but I love Gilly. I loved Gilly, Gilly and Sam. You know, I edited this episode, Liz, and you gushed a little. You ged little You gushed a little, which is okay. Now a little bit about Gilly and her part, Gilly grows up beyond the wall, which is inside a small isolated community run by a single terrifying patriarch named Kraster. Also did her father Oh, he's a sick Mother eff Here's another F bomb for you. Let's shalk another one up. Kraster apparently takes his own biological daughters as his wives and then demands total obedience. And for Gilly The only way out and the only way to save herself and her baby is to escape Beautiful Do he off a name No Are you going to give him one? Why? You didn't had to hold for you until you came back You back pained beer. I don't want you stupid simple I wanted to save my baby's life. Can you do that Can you? So a young woman trying to break free of a closed world buuilt around one powerful man. Hold that thought, hold And it was also I mean, yeah, it was a completely different level of production. L the thing of being seventeen and being on any set for the first time. is wild But then being twenty two and being on that set where there are like whole worlds constructed from nothing and fake snow and CGI kind of creatures and it was There was was a step up of the kind of fantasy that acting could be, I suppose. I mean, there's kind of literal magic in that show. So yees, it was a bit magical Once you are in something of that level, you can't suddenly go, oh wait actually, I don't want people to come up to me in the street. Like people are going to come up to you in the street and ask her selfies then that's going to be the deal. And sometimes that could be fine and even lovely. And sometimes I would be having a really, really horrific day and someone would come up to me and want to talk about the show or want to take a picture of me and maybe I ironically hate having my photograph taken which is an occupational hazard if you're gonna be an act. doesn't really make sense, but I always felt really uncomfortable in front of a stills camera It was knowing that people wanted that encounter to be special for them, but also sometimes feeling like actually I just want to like be walking around his swetbants and on the verge of tears and not have anyone come up to me Because the whole time in my twenties I was going through a lot of really extreme emotional ups and downs that I didn't really understand the reasons behind. I was like living this dream and had this incredible job and was on this big TV show. And so of course I should be happy all the time, like what was wrong with me that I couldn't just always feel great talking about the acting because I do think there's a big parallel between this and then chararismatic authoritative Ler ofents and cults, right? There's this lack of control, like you said, there's this sense of giving away the autonomy, doing what the system Dems is right for you. Yeah, I also think there's a big piece around feeling like you have been chosen for a role. that makes you special. You are incredibly lucky and you are beholden to the person who chose you and you must always be grateful they chose you. It could always come back to being magical, I think. And then there were also days where it could be within the same job, you could have these amazing moments travel moments But there is that allure right in a cult where like there's the moment where you get built up and it's great again and you believe again. and it sort of is the thing that keeps you coming back chasing that feeling that desire you're feeling like you're having to be this performative person the whole time Yeah. is just too much for any human. Yeah, it's exhausting I definitely was struggling with anxiety And I was struggling with depression. which would come and go And I was also yeah, taking drugs, drinking a lot. Iing felt so random and hard to control. You know, I felt like I wanted more kind of control of my life and a bigger purpose and meaning. And that's when I started looking into kind of self help spirituality type things because I was always I was very interested in like eating and exercise and all the kind of stuff that most actresses feel is their obligation and part of their job. And it was like, oh, everyone's talking about meditation, Eone's talking mindfulness, maybe I'll take a course, maybe I'll read some books. And it felt really good. It felt, you know, I felt great I spent a lot of time reading self help books, reading spiritual guides, going to odd little kind of talks or just kind of being curious like started collecting crystals, I was just exploring and thinking I was having quite a fun sort of awakening to that side of things. I'd grown up in a very non religious, very kind of atheist household. And so I'd never really connected with that sense of believing in a higher power or manifestation all that kind of stuff felt really exciting to me. I felt less reliant on substances. I was definitely going be kind of cutting down on my drinking and my smoking even though I wasn't giving them up entirely. So it just felt like very, very good new phase in my Lice felt like pretty tame compared to what I ended up getting involved in Hey everyone, this is Tyler, lookook Right? I mean, I consider you a friend and you know, I did buy you lunch that one time. So and since I'm obviously your best friend, we can talk about things. and well We should talk about your wardrobe L it needs an upgrade. and I'm not saying you don't look great because you do. but You know, you could look a little bit better. also I know, I'm by no means the sartorial expert. My choices are essentially shorts and a t shirt and occasionally I'll wear something with a button. but I think you're classier than I am and you deserve classier clothes. So what I would say is elevate your wardrobe with quints. Tins. I know, I know I talk about them a lot Whenever we hang out That's because I like them and I like you. and I think it's a good fit And speaking of good fit, I mean, they're close fit. They fit. they're nice.' sweaters, there's t shirts, there's skirts if you're into that, underwear, honestly, look, they have everything and everything is in our price range Gone Get onQuintince. Trust me, I was the best man at your wedding. I wouldn't lead you astray. so elevate your summer wardrobe. Get on quintince dot com slash cult. You get free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty five day returns Available in Canada too. I know you're not in Canada, but you know, people who are QuNC d. com slash colt for free shipping. three hundred and sixty five day returns quQintince d. com slash colt. Now Now about that lunch you owe me, Bestie? So now Hannah has stepped her toe into the spiritual wellness world, which listeners, unfortunately I myself, I have no idea about whatsoever. I don't not reallyate I'm glad you're not saying anything or speaking about it because You come from this with nothing You have never been in like a weird acting class. It was turned into a spiritual self help cult of any kind. You haven't done that. That doesn't ex. You know why either. You know why that would? Becauseuse that sounds ridiculous. Sounds made up, Lis Oh does it. Can I borrow your floor length underwear that's hanging behind your head Those are long since passed. But yes, at one point I believed in golden plates and Angels You were in a cult, but at least you got to wear comfortable underwear I don't know, I think the Mormon underwear may look looks pretty comfortable In the winter it kept you warm. Yeah Think about it, I understand why acting and spirituality have this weird overlap Because to be an actor, you have to believe in impossible things all the time. You have to believe the next audition could change your life You have to believe that the fiftieth no Does it mean anything You have to believe that your worth isn't determined by a callback from somebody picking kale out of their teeth sitting behind a folding table onn a Tuesday. Yeah maybe next Tuesday. So of course it takes meditation, energy work, crystals, all of that could start to feel like an armor, like a way to survive a career that is constantly asking you to be on open, vulnerable, rejected, judged, basically sometimes just by how you look. And you somet keep coming back, smiling And smile through it. Andot to mention the actual work, which is difficult. There's roles and characters and real pain that you have to step inside And the strange thing about pretending for a living is just how real it can feel at times They played a lot of different roles and a lot of them had something in common, which was that they were pretty heavy, dark material, pretty emotionally fraght characters. And I got into this sort of pattern where I kept playing real people or doing movies that were at least loosely based on true events. And I was in the US in Boston filming a movie about the Detroit prising called Detroit, which was directed by Catherine Bigglow for about two months. and I was like, what will I do without a personal trainer? And so my personal trainer in London suggested someone in Boston who was very nice, was very empathetic to like how stressful the job was. We were doing, I'd say almost constant night shoots on Detroit. and very, very, very brutal scenes, very physical, a lot of stunts, very violent, very dark scenes. And so she was really concerned with my stress levels, my cortisol, like what this was all doing to my body. And she was very kind. And then I was sort of coming in covered in bruises from doing me stus and being kind of grabbed by other actors and thrown off against the wall. All kinds of stuff. And she was like, I don't think you're okay and you're losing weight and something's going on. and I was like It's just my job. It's just, you know, it's just acting And she said, Well, your body doesn't know the difference which I think is a very true thing for a lot of actors that You can tell yourself in your head as much as you like that it's pretend that your body doesn't know the difference a lot at the timees. In the midst of all that I shot a very traumatic scene. My character's dress gets ripped off which is a real thing that happened to a real woman. and it was really important to tell her story and be realistic about what had happened to her. It was a sexual assault scene. Yeahah it was, I mean, yeah, it was And the reality of shooting a scene like that is that you don't do it once, you do it multiple times from different angles, you do multiple takes of each angle. and so my dress got ripped off for real over and over and over again And I really, really, really wanted to be fine about it. I was really determined that it was fine and I was fine. And I would have told anyone that I was absolutely fine. But I really wasn't and my body was the thing that knew that I wasn't. I had a A lot of really, really intense physical reactions to it. I woke up in the night and had to vomit I woke up with like shooting pains on on the backs of my legs. I was really, really not okay. And that was when I sort of I admitted to the trainer that I was really not okay. And she said, I know it's energy healer. It's like, it's a bit woo woo. You might not be into it. And I was like, I'm kind of into that kind of stuff right now. I think this will be an interesting experience to have. I'll feel nothing and it won't do anything. and it'll just be a story I can tell of like that one time I went to see an energy healer. And on the other hand, I thought maybe this is gonna heal all my shit and all my drama and everything in one go. and it'll be this like magic fix silver bullet that was kind of what I was always I would be able to find somehow Yeah, so I went to see the healer. She was very sweet, blonde kippy sort of dress sense like floaty voice and she made me feel very at ease very immediately actually. I think I went in thinking, well, if I want to get the best possible experience out of this, I need to be really open. And then we sat down, she said, I can tell you a little bit about what I do first or you can tell me what you're looking for while you're here And so I said, yeah, it'd be great to hear about what you do first And then she changed her mind and said, I'm actually not sure I want to do that I think you should go first, whichich was a thing that I just remember thinking, like that's strange. Why would she do that? But then ignored it and then loggged into my story So I shared kind of like all my stuff And she kind of let me keep talking and keep talking and I did and I did and I did But I look back on that now and it is like with hindsight and particularly with The level of involvement I got to and the courses that I took She needed to know if I was the kind of person who would go for what she was really hoping to sell And she said, I have different you know, kind of modalities I do Ri. that'll just make you feel better for a little, but it's not like The really good stuff I have, which is for people peopleople who want to get in there and sort their shit out And she said, I feel like you're one of those people And I thought, off course I'm one of those people. That's exactly who I am And what she said was that this will of fix everything and get to the core of who you are and strip everything else away and you will be your most authentic self. And I thought, like who doesn't want that So she offered me this specific healing that was going to be this incredible solution to all my problems. And I did it there and then And while she was performing the healing on me, I had my eyes closed the whole time And I felt an invisible force moving m My arms start to kind of float from side to side, you know, kind of close to the body with hands not actually touching And I just I'd never experienced anything like this sensation, and I thought magic is real and it just made me think All I want is more of this feeling All I want is to kind of get us close to this feeling and the fact that this woman has made this happen for me and taught me this The truth about the world and the universe, which is that I can believe in magic. The kind of magic I imagined as a child fantas as a child is real is much more real than I ever thought possible do not have an explanation for why that happened. I don't I just I know it felt really magical. I no no longer believe in kind of magic in the way that I did for a long time after that experience. but I kind of thought I would get some kind of definitive, almost like scientific answer. to why I experienced that ceiling And now what's really happened is more a case of I've made my peieace with Not knowing That was the turning point Once that had happened, I was in And I didn't really understand the structure of what she was involved in, what she would encourage me to go on to do, to take courses, to go back to London, to get involved in a kind of different branch of this organisation. but I knew I just wanted as much of that feeling as I could access You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind Well here's a helpful fact you might not know yet Drivers who switch and save with progressives save over nine hundred dollars on average Pop over to progressive d. comot answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by In fact, ninety nine percent of their auto customers earn at least one discount Visit progressive. com and see if you can enjoy a little cash backack Progressive casualty Inurance Company and Affiliates. National average twelve month savings of nine hundred and forty six dollars by new customers surveyed who saved with prorogressive between june twenty twenty four and may twenty twenty five. Potential savings will vary Okay, now I happen to know a bit about magic. Oh yes, Yes. Tell us, Tyler. Tell us. Oh, thank you, Liz. Thank you, Liz. Thank you so much. I happen to know a lot about real magic, which is to say fake magic.ake real magic. misdirection, suggestion The stuff magicians use to make you feel wonder I'm talking about Illusion Michael. Illusion, Michael. This is the magic trick, huh? Illusion, Michael. Trick is something a he does for money. be. Okay now we're heading with this, Tyler. and I am going to give you some props here because I really loved this film that you made. So as many of you listening may recall, Tyler made a documentary called An Honest Lar. It's actually the first thing I ever watched and I was like, o, he's really good. I want to work with Sman on this bot. seenty later It's called an Honest Lar. It's about James, the amazing Randy. and he was a magician and escape artist who spent much of his life expxosing psychics, faith healers, spoon benders, and other people using the tools of magic claim supernatural power. Maybe he's the first cult buster, if you will. Perhaps, I mean, he was following Houdini. Houdini spent the latter years of his life kind of exposing hucksters. but Randy understood something. He understood something really important. He understood that belief is powerful and wonderment is powerful. and in the hands of an entertainer, well It's fun and it's beautiful, especially if it's a date night or a ten year old's birthday party But in the hands of someone claiming special access to a hidden truth, well that can become dangerous very quickly Precisely. And these kind of techniques have been used for centuries by people claiming to have special access to magic powers or hidden truths. And yes, they are still going on today So how does it progress in the weeks and days and months ahead Kind of selling like a package, I suppose, to get the full experience of what would really, really heal me was to get the healing from her and then there was a two day class that I should take. giveive me tools to heal myself But she said, you can also take it in London. There are people offering this in London. And I was that already kind of was strange to me because I was like, oh, this in multiple countries And there was no mention of an organization, there was no mention of anything really behind it. so she put me in touch with a woman who taught the class in London and I signed up for it. And who's teaching these classes? I call her Sivon in the book. She kind of headed up the London branch But it was a very small class. It was me and one other person So I still thought this is some tiny little obscure thing that I've stumbled across Class was two very intense days in which I got to experience much more of that physical sensation of what I believe to be magic. You know, it was this very kind of sooporific music Inense burning. I feel like there was a lot about the atmosphere of the room that contributed to a very kind of like client relaxed state in which you were incredibly suggestible to everything. All the information, all the rituals, all the meditations felt very easy to lean into, I suppose. And there was a lot of information that I was quite skeptical about, like dragons and unicorns are real And I was sort of like pretty bold statement You're like, I'm in a show Where I know if the dragons could have been real, they probably would have cast them. Well, yes. But it was like you just can't see them because you're not evolved enough, but maybe one day you'll become evolved and you'll be able to see them There yeah, there was you, a dimension that exists alongside our world and certain people are evolved enough to see these beings. But also we did some meditations in this class, which were unlike any meditations I had done before really profound, almost like psychedelic kind of visions of unicorns and giraffes and incredible like Star started skies and like I remember thinking that a lot. I was like, I never need to take drugs again because this is like a much better drug So at the end of these two days there was a Path was laid out to us of like, this is what you can do next. And this is a path that goes this next class, which is where you learn how to give the healing to others. And then beyond that you can take this path or you can take this path, but they went on and on and on and there were multiple courses And this was suddenly like this goes up and up and up and on and on and on. I this could become my whole L, this could give me a purpose and turn me into someone of real kind of spiritual meaning and value in the world. And just I just wanted it. so badly. After I did that class, it was suddenly very woven into my day to day existence I think I'd just come back from shooting in Belfast. on Game with Frons when I did this class. And then I think I was kind of heading into a period of sort of uncertain what my next job will be, like going to be on hire just again from Gam of Thrones. So have a lot of time on my hands. So a great time to pick up a new obsession. or this was my kind of full time focus the next few months If I wanted to progress to the next stage, it was going to be a week and it was going to be learning how to become a healer And although I was very excited by the whole thing, I was also kind of daunted by the whole thing because it felt so serious and important. Part of me wants to just do this right away and part of me is like Can I be a healer? I'm an actor. L how are those things gonna coexist? And so I was sort of like Maybe let's just take a breath, Maybe let's just take a pause And then I was kind of occasionally invited to like more kind of casual one off events, they were doing a sort of Halloween themed thing and things to do with solstices or equonoxes. And then in January, I went along to this psychic night kind of thinking like That' be interesting. kind of reconnect with these people, see what's wor And it was there that I was told We're teaching this weeke on course in March And it was very casually like, you should come and join us And I saw Yeah, greatreat. actuallyually that's exactly what I want to do and this is the right time In her book, Hannah chooses not to name the group. She calls it simply the organization, and of course we're going to respect that here as well Of course, we're going to respect that. However, I did a little research And I don't know. I may have figured out who the group is and knowing our Very fucking smart listeners, I'm pretty sure we'll get some emails by the end of the day who have also figured it out Info at was Annicult. com But the name isn't the important part. The important part is the structure The secrecy, the levels, the promise that if you keep going and keep paying and keep surrendering your doubts You'll eventually get access to the real truth And what Hannah starts to realize is that this small, strange thing she thought she'd stumbled into It was not so small at all I don't necessarily know how well known they are in the world. I know they are international. I know they have thousands of members I think something I can see now with hindsight, particularly writing about it is how much they borrowed from a lot of spiritual and occult groups throughout history. And so a lot of the things that were being presented to me as kind of secret knowledge I could actually go into a bookstore in LA that specializes in kind of magical reading. and I could find all the information in there They claim to be descended from the Glden Dawn which is a British occult from the early twenties Aiser Crowley was involved in the golden Donas Mrter Crowley, as Ozzy called him Yes, we've covered Alista Crowley previously on this podcast And you've played prereviously on this podcast, T many songs. played the perfect amount of songs. So founded in eighteen eighty eight Golden Dawn was a secret society devoted to ceremonial magic Think of it as a Victorian era Hogwarts. meembers climbed through levels of initiation Studying astrology and alchemy in Kabala and ancient mythology ammong its members were poets and artists and mystics, and eventually Alistter Crowley, who became one of the most infamous spiritual figures of the twentieth century. His unconventional beliefs even earned him the title The wickedest M in the world. But also, and most importantly, Crowley heavily influenced rock and roll. Led Zeppelin's Jimmy Page still in the middle of that on Led Zpp it's great. He became an ardent follower Jimmy Page Jetd and everyone from Iron Maiden to David Bowie sang songs about Crowley. His image also appeared on the Sgeant Pepper's album. But to Hannah, this wasn't that the wickedest man in the world. It was a community of people who all seemed happier, healthier convinced that they had found something that was changing their life for the better I don't think it even occurred to me that it could be necessarious Which maybe sounds incredibly naive, but I was like, everyone that's into it says it's changed their life and like made all their problems go away. And this is like inherently healthy, inherently positive And I just wanted as much of it as I could get my hands on really. It felt like The same part of me that was addicted to cigarettes, alcohol, drugs was like, well I can get addicted to this instead And I was addicted to it. I felt it was the same mechanism that was being activated. But I was like, this is a good addiction, this is a healthy addiction, and this is really positive. And so let's just like go. I was I was really hungry for as many of those kind of experiences as possible already And as much as I was really into it and I loved it and I thought it was magical and brilliant, I thought if I tell my friends that I'm taking these classes where they tell me dragons and unicorns are real, They might have some questions. and I knew on some level that they might have some doubts and I didn't want the doubts to infiltrate this special thing I was falling in love with So when I went to do the course, I decided to stay in an Airbnb around the corner from where it was being taught because you know, I had a roommate. I didn't want her to know what I was doing. so I created this bubble in which for this week, all I was doing was immersed totally in there world It was in the basement room of a hotel where they were teaching the course. And then it was suddenly a much bigger people taking this course, it was around like twenty people and people had come from all over the world. And suddenly, like there were a lot of Americans, there were people from all over Europe, the people from the Middle East. I was like, o, this is bigger I'm part of something much bigger than I had originally thought all It was slightly more female students than male, but most people were kind of older than me. I realized going through this experience is that it's not a uniform group of people at all There was one young woman in her twenties who I developed a very close friendship with who is still a very close friend of mine, who's called Jodie in the book. But it was interesting to me how over the course of that week fromrom day one kind of going like, I'm not sure I really want to hang out with these people outside of this week By the end, I was like, these are the most glorious human beings I've ever encountered in my life and they are my family. You know, It really, really shifted very quickly. Like my sense of possibility kept expanding, and I was really excited to see how far that could go A lot happened in that week At first it was just more and more of like incredible feelings of my investment in the reality of magic getting stronger and stronger, because now not only could I experience receiving the healing as magical, but I could experience giving it And we were kind of taught different parts of the process. and then we'd practice on each other in pairs and then we'd beanded down more pieces and more pieces. And there was a reverence with which these movements and gestures were performed that felt very sacred You know, you're kind of searching for invisible energy points in the air around someone's body. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not going to be able to feel those. and then I could feel them. I could feel them physically with my fingers It it was so interesting to keep thinking This has changed my life. magic is real. And there was a kind of mood in the room a mood in the air that felt very profound And it was maybe two to three days in that we started talking about this kind of ultimate goal You know, why are we doing this? Why are we learning to perform these healings And it was saving the world bringing about a sort of utopian paradise I was then kind of like Okay, this is This is what I was put on this earth to do. I've found exactly where I should be because I'm going to be part of saving the world. Yeah, the penultimate day of the course. and I arrived at the hotel. It was a little bit late. I was plustered and Shivon was getting out of a taxi with a man who I did not and No, had not met before. And she introduced us and said that he was Steve And he was the leader of the organization And she had actually mentioned him to me when I had signed up to do the course and she had said, you know, the leader of the oration will be overvisiting while the course is going on. And he's a Game of Thrones fan And he'll probably want to get a picture with you And I sa, oh my God, how annoying I don't really want to get my picture taken with some weird man. And then I met him And I just felt like he was powerful in a magical way. And I thought, this is a magician, this is a real magician And he was confident to a degree that I had, I mean, I'd met a lot of movie stars, I'd met a lot of very confident people in my time as an actor and in my life. And it was a different level of self possession and surety than I had ever really known before It was all about magnetism and energy, you know, and like the way he carried himself. and he had this whole kind of like, u'm justerably down to earth guy. G go my Starbucks cup, like call me Steve, that kind of vibe And then he gave us a talk about The next step on the path and these advanced courses. that he taught and it was just a whole different ball game when he was in the room when he was talking. Like he kind of walked out, started his talk and was like He said, I're supposed to do forty five minutes of cardio a day. I'd rather be having sex for my cardio than anything else, right? Like who's with me And straight away he made a joke about Sas And so immediately That topic is very present in the room and it really had not been I had not understood at any point how to reconcile my sexuality with my spirituality at any point until he kind of walks in and it is like Hey, let's think about it It was such a gear shift And I just felt I just couldn't stop thinking about having sex with him And I couldn't understand why, I couldn't stop thinking about that. And then he talked about evil and that the whole point of these advanced courses that he taught We're about learning how to fight evil and destroy it And it was like Evil is real. I've seen it, I understand it. I know how to destroy it. if you want to destroy it come and take these courses with me And I'd never known anyone to speak like that In terms of our physical contact, I remember him holding my hand I remember him stroking my hair And so I remember his presence, I remember his voice in my head. I remember him kind of sitting down and talking to me very urgently and saying Magic is real Magic is real magic is real I was wanted to believe magic was real and now I know that it is And magic is real was something that was said to me at a very, very, very vulnerable moment It felt very key that my words were echoed back to me, you know, Magic is real. Magic is real I did not confide. in anyone about my feelings for Steve because I felt like they were overwhelming. I didn't really understand where they were coming from. And I also felt like I potentially had a special connection with him And I wanted to keep that secret There were other students who had a very different attitude towards him. It wasn't like everyone was feeling what I was feeling. And to me, that made me feel all the more special And then I started to really kind of on the final day course really break down and really really believes So we had a special connection because I started to hear his voice in my head Magic is real. Magic is real There was something about the delusions I was having, the experiences I was having were building and building and building throughout that week. And then he arrived and things escalated significantly the day that I met him and then the dayay of initiation. and this kind of build up to like what initiation was and what it meant and how it was going to transform us as human beings. L that build upp was very very significant in me feeling this sense of something was coming, something huge And the ultimate consequence of that day was that I ended up in a psychiatric ward And I really, really fully lost my mind. for quite some time Insurance isn't one size fits all. And that's why drivers have enjoyed progressives name your price tool for years now. With the name Y your prrice tool, you can tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you the options that fit within your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive dot com Find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive casualty insurance compompany and affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law It's difficult for me to fully Explain what happened on that final day because my memories while many of them are very vivid They start to fracture and the chronology gets unclear So I'd lock myself in the toilet cubicle for many hours because I was completely freaking out and wanted to be somewhere kind of contained and safe There was in the toile in this kind my head was in agonizing pain. I was kind of hearing voices. I was in a very bad place And Jodie figured out that I'd gone missing because you know, we were close friends and she family in the Tile cubicle and she told them where I was And I was told specifically that it was not a breakdown I was told it was a demonic possessions So I remember the exxorcism. I remember thinking it was the funniest thing because I thought Me and him knew the truth, which was that we were soulmates and had done this incredibly complicated thing to save the world, but no one could know. But I thought we were pretending that I was possessed And so the female teachers who were all present for the exorcism had to be sort of tricked into thinking there was something wrong with me that meant I needed this special care. But what I do know is that they performed an exorcism before they called an ambulance So that was there. Priorities T take us to what happens When you wake up in a psychiatric facility. Yeah. I mean, so I woke up I mean, there was a long process of kind of being taken there, not understanding where I was being taken, being in an ambulance, thinking I was in chariot on the way to the palace where he and I would be married and be king and quQeen of the universe. I mean, I'd really, really, really lost my mind. I can't kind of overstate that It was an incredible detachment from reality and an incredible belief In In the ideas that had been being discussed all week about saving the world taken to a a fantastical extreme. So when I ended up in hospital, for days I couldn't understand where I really was because it didn't fit with the narrative that was going on in my head which was that I found my soulmate We're gods, We're divine. We ruled the universe. we have saved the world. You know, was it was really difficult to piece together What was going on around me? I've had a lot of unanswered questions. and I thought Steve had all the answers. We were in very consistent contact over WhatsApp while I was in hospital several weeks afterwards, but in those conversations we were having via text, he told me that my beliefs that I had heard his voice in my head were accurate. I asked him at one point about the sexual connection I had felt to him and he said, you're special and there are things you are right about. And then the fact that I had this very intense experience and ended up in hospital also made me feel special You know, I thought like no one else has gone through. No one else has been possessed, no one else has survived, no one else has had an exorcism performed on them No one else was in Game of Thrones. in that room. No one else was And I do suspect that the level of attention I was given by him had something to do with my job and my fame. although he always insisted that he didn't care about famous people and wasn't interested in celebrity And I really, really wanted deeper understanding of what had happened to me? And he suggested to me many times that he did have answers that I was not ready to hear them until I had taken fther courses with him And so that was such an incredible hook for me to keep obsessing over him, over the organization, over those courses, over I just need to find out the truth of what really happened to me. And if I just stay in this, I will eventually understand what that really was because I could not make sense of it I ended up taking more courses with them Those courses were taught by Steve's wife That was a really big turning point for me was In my head, we were soulmates. In my head, we had gotten married in this divine palace And so to find out that he had a wife was very destabilizing and confusing to me And then I found out she was teaching courses in London. And so I had to go had to try and gar or whatever information they could about their relationship And those were courses in witchcraft in sort of Wicca. and that was four days I spent taking these classes. And I always think that element of the story that like all this stuff happened And then I took classes in Witchcraft with his wife. justust feels like the strangest twwist in the tail to me That was kind of, I think that was the beginning of the end. I think first of all, finding about her and feeling like I didn't have this kind of special position in his affections that I necessarily thought I did then there were a lot of quite high level students Taking that course, people who had progressed through a lot of levels that I had not yet. I started to see a lot of vulnerability in those people And I started to look around me and just start to question like, if this is what all these courses YouTube Why did these people seem so uncertain? Why did they seem so nervous? Why did they seem so down on themselves? And then there was also a certain degree of traditional gender roles being enforced, which If you were a woman, you had to wear a skirt or a dress. There was yeah, it was just a lot of stuff in those four days that was thrown at me that made me go, this isn't what I wanted. The piece of it that is almost darkly funny to me now is that the thing that I think really got me out was that it started to feel really boring. And those wicker classes in one day we spent like a whole afternoon making bath salt It was like endlessly, how long can I stare at a vat of salt? And imagine it has healing powers. You know, it started to feel frustratingly dull. And I thought, this isn't exciting, this isn't what I want magic to be And that felt like maybe the most definitive moment. I was very lucky that I was still very connected with my friends And I was living with a very close friend who had nothing to do with this organization. And she was connecting me constantly with the real world and with normality. And I ultimately found that was a lot more seductive than what they were offering And when I stopped, I thought, I'm not going to take those further courses. I'm not going to become this kind of warrior of light that they have set up as this path I could follow. And then I realized maybe that was opening up space to do much more appealing, much more interesting things The life in which I stayed in that world is So depressing to me. the idea of what it could have looked like and Steve, was there how did you reconcile that relationship. I kind of felt like it's in some ways, I think a lot of people who've had frustrating, mostly text based, sort of toxic relationships with someomeone they've wanted to be with who's maybe with someone they couldn't have. maybe relate to this strange way our dynamic played out. I don't know. Like ultimately he sort of ghosted me. you know, I sent him this message to try and connect again, to tell him I wanted to take these p and I was ready to walk that path and he never responded He definitely, I think, enjoyed my attention for a time and then decided to move on from whatever plan he had had for me When you look back at that now, what's the language that you have for that experience? I don't know. I don't know. I'm not I thought I would write this book. and get all the answers And then before that, I thought Steve would give me all the answers And now I have really had to make my peace with some things happen to us, I think that we cannot fully explain And while, you know, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder after a eopopsis, I really believe in that diagnosis. It makes my mental landscape make sense to me. But the whole kind of perfect storm of everything I went through and all the different factors, I don't have a definitive like label to put on it. For sure. I mean, the main thing I think is like What a terrible environment to be in. If you have undiagnosed bipolar I'm so sorry that You had to go through that. And also I'm so just enamored by where you are today and how you're able to talk about it and you've written an amazing book about it. that I'm so proud of the book You know, it took me seven years to write it. I started writing it only maybe a year and a half after I left hospital. I kind of obviously could not shake these memories And I thought You know I do remember so much. I remember a lot of detail, what if I tried writing it down, and I kind of thought that was just for myself. and then I couldn't stop writing and then I read back what I'd written. And I thought, o, I think this is a book And that was kind of an a fuck moment because I was like, God, what does it mean if And I feel like I'm in the right place right now to tell this story. L writing this book has been the most rewarding experience of my life. What about acting? No done Dam When were you able to see fully this experience and the cultic nature of this group And where you in a coult Well, that's the title of your show, right? You have to ask that question I have a very complex relationship with that word. As many do, I've experimented with using that word to describe my story and I find it often gets a reaction from people that I don't Noose. And I feel like it erases nuance. And I also think there's this weird way it gets used now with like beauty products and exercise classes and like I would was a hairdresser. the other day called like cult something and it's like, why that wouldd? Like it's almost become slightly devoid of meaning Like I said, I understand why it gets used and I think sometimes it is the only word to use. It's not a word I like having in my mouth I think in terms of my full experience, the clearest most concise way I would describe it as a spiritual awakening that turned into a mental breakdown Where are you with magic today I think magic is in much simpler, more grounded. details of Lice. A really beautiful day and you're walking in the park. and it's spring and the trees are full of blossoms. That's magical. You don't have to give up your whole rest of your life to pursue that kind of magic. It's just woven into our world I don't drink anymore. I don't take drugs anymore. I don't even smoke anymore, which took a long time to kick that habit. And you know, I get up early, I go for walks. I write, I read a lot. I have really nice friends where I live It's a simpler, quieter existence and it's So rewarding and so fulfilling Like there's wonderful things in my life, you know, on all kinds of different levels. So feeleels good. I feel good Thank you so much for all your time today. Thank you, Liz. Thank you for holding so much sort of space and asking really insightful questions. and yeah, your empathy has felt terry palpable. Thank you, Hannah. you're amazing A huge thanks to Hannah Murray for sharing this inspiring story with so much honesty, so much grace. Thank you, Hannah I was blown away by just how comfortable she is in her skin Skin. Yeah, you did that. skkin And I like I did do that. ye. But it's true though. She's just really cool and knows herself. and I just was like, I want to hang out with you longer And her story is remarkable and she wrote a hell of a book about it, everyone. is called The Make belieelieve, a memoir of Magic and Madness. It's out tomorrow, by goodness. You don't have to wait long. june twenty third in the United States. If you live in the UK, well you can already get it Drop everything you're doing and go pick up. Get it. What are you doing? Why are you listening to this stupid podcast? Go get the book. It's what I say every week. I loved this book. I really did.'s incredibly personal. and Oh, intimate. It's like you're living it right along with her. And even though it's a memoir, it reads like a thriller Well, that's but the stakes are real because it's her real life. Right, exactly. It's just great. I highly recommend. And for my audiob book friends Hannah reads the book, which I am planning to do as well. of that accent. M more of that accent.. This is sorry, it so sorry I sorry sorry. The link is in the show notes or wherever you get your books, which I would suggest your local bookstore. Y, supportort local For the name of the organization We know you smart cultty listeners are already typing. So feel free to send us your best guess to info. wasas I andna Cult. tell you what, the first one I see We get that is correct I'll send you a nice little gift