Motherhood and Future Advocacy

Hey, it's Christy from Lou Lemmon. I'm in the office with What's New and the Breezzly collection has definitely caught my eye. If you're like me and want to add some lighter, airy pieces to your wardrobe, this is a great place to start. There's a Breezzly tank, shorts, and pants, all in our swift fabric, which is super lightweight and stretchy. They're flowy staples you can mix and match for a really easy elevated vibe whether it's to and from the studio or just for every day. The Breezalily collection is in store now or you can shop online at lululemon. com. Gypsy Rose When you reflect on your participation in murdering your mother I should have spent the rest of my life in prison I felt like my mom was my best friend. She was my protector. So you have a child that just wants her mom to love her. You're the reason I was born to be a mom. What was your mother claiming supposedly a seizure disorder, leukemia, paralyze since birth. But I knew that I could walk. Was there ever a moment where a doctor told her no? Yeah, this brings us to quite a pivotal moment. But you then start dating. There was Nick, Ryan, and Ken. Something in me snapped. Nick was the gasoline, I was the fire. First thing he said when he comes to the door is this is dead. I wanted to go and help her Done. ving people run up to you and want to take a selfie with you. None of that I was prepared for. Y'all made me this I didn't, but it wasn't until I had my daughter thinking to myself, how Could a parent ever hurt to their child? Was there anything that you've seen or heard about your life? You want to clarify? In all the interviews that I have done, I have never had anyone really listen to me Until now. In this episode, Gypsy Rose Blanchard shares her own account of her life and experiences including the murder of her mother, childhood abuse and allegations of sexual assault We must note to be legally accurate that these allegations of sexual assault previously been denied or disputed and have not resulted in criminal prosecutions We report, but do not adopt them. These topics may be difficult to hear, so please watch with care This is a deeply powerful conversation and I hope that you take something meaningful away from it. If you do, please like and subscribe to our channel as it really helps us to keep bringing you more and more conversations just like this one most recognizable. figures. in the United States. Gypsy Rose is one of, I think the most recognizable However I believe that there iss a lack of undernderstanding about who you actually are are Yeah. and what actually And that's the reason why I'm so intrigued And so honored thatre you're here to give us your time. happy. All right, I'm happy to get into it. All right, let's let's let's do it. Let's do it. All, let's do it. Okay So could we then begin with your parents. All right, so DD and RD When did your parents meet and where did they meet So my parents met in in a town I mean very small in Louisiana. Originally they became friends and then not too long after, you know, hanging out, my mom got pregnant. And my father felt like the right thing to do would be to marry my mom. Even though, you know, he was, I mean, honestly, he was just a kid. Yeah, you know he dropped out of high school And around that same time he got another woman pregnant. So I have a half sister And he realized, oh my gosh, like Now I have two daughters to take care of and pay child support on and things like this. U and on my dad's eighteenth birthday He realized that he was not in love, that he married my mom for good intent Um But he didn't love her. He wasn't in love with her like that And so he ended the relationship. It ended in divorce U, and my mom got custody And I lived with my mom How do you think that impacted her You know, in hindsight, I realized that, you know, that must have been so hard on her Um, because There's not only that element of abandonment, but Re trauma that my mom went through as a child, herself I think the hits just kept coming. and she loved him very, very much. So, you know, looking back on it, that must have been heartbreaking. and I am I am a reflection of my dad. L I look just like my dad So I can imagine that that must have been really hard for Yes, absolutely. What was life like for you and your mother in particular in this first five years I mean I would say that, you know, I felt like my mom was my best friend Um I felt like She was my protector The childhood seemed fairly normal because the first five years of my life, my grandmother was still alive. Um, And I honestly feel like when my grandmother passed away My mom lost a part of herself that at least was keeping her together Um because At the age of five, I was still able to be around my cousins. I have a very large family Um, lots of cousins, u I have Two ants, u goals and then when my grandmother passed away, U my grandfather got me remarried My mother did not approve of the new relationship and everybody took sides And then From there, my mom and I started moving around Interesting. And was that because you could no longer live in the house Correct. Fom what I understand, my uncle, addressed Um all the things that my mom was doing at that point he was like, why isn't Gypsy in school You need to put her in school Um I really just don't think she's as sick as what you claim perfectly fine. She plays with my kids And he just put her on blast s see. So what was your mother doing or claiming at that time. Well at the age of, you know, five, I was still seeing many doctors. The list of ailments was not as long as it was obviously later on in life But I had supposedly a seizure disorder Supposedly, I had leukemia Um hearing impaired, vision, impaired, muscle weakness. So all of these things I was still in GI problems, gut problems. So all of this was happening even at the age of five. What about, do you remember or what what you've heard the other family members, especially who were living with you What did they think The thing about my mother's side of the family is They don't really recognize mental health problems. you know, obviously in the nineties, eighties, nineties, mental health problems was shrugged off and considered you're weird.'re you know, they put you in a box and in a category that you're just crazy. Yes instead of it being addressed with therapy Um, and so That's the kind of box they just put my mom into. Even, you know, her own family put her in that box of like, oh, she's just weird, she's just crazy U And so it's like, I think that they had a hint that Yeah, this is not normal There's a lot of things that was going on in that family that was non normal Now you mentioned there and this is something that this is a term that I I didn't no until doing the research for you is so fromrom what I understand is, yes, your mom wasn't weird, or crazy. She suffered from a disorder. So this is this FDIA were Munchhaousen FDIA, fabricated or induced illness or FII. And it's a severe form of child abuse or mental illness where a caregiver fakes or causes symptoms or illness in a child to gain attention or sympathy Uh, and it's previously was known as Munchauusen syndrome by proxy So from what I understand this is what your mother suffered from And I've seen reports that have said that She has one of the most Historically of the most not is one of the most notorious sufferers of this disease. And she took this out on you So so the family doesn't know what's happening They just say that She's weird But as you mentioned, there's other things happening in the house Can you talk about what was happening in the house. so we understand the full environment I mean, as far as, you know, my mother goes, u She was supposed to be on medication She was supposed to be on medication because she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder Um, and I remember like there was a therapist that would come to the house of counselor Um, and then when we moved from Louisiana to Missouri, she stopped seeing the therapist and she stopp being on medication Um I remember, you know, growing up with a mom that said, you know, do you hear that? you know I hear voices telling me that There's seven voices and six of them doesn't like me do I see that? like seeing things that aren't there? and I didn't see these things so, you know, it would kind of break my mom's heart when I would be like, No, I don't say anything Um, so it's definitely a lot of that manipulation Growing up, my mom was like, yourour dad wants nothing to do with you. He has his family now, he's remarried, he's got new kids. They're his favorite. He doesn't love you and he doesn't love me. And but I love you I'm the one that's here day in and day out. Appreciate me. You know, I see. So it's a lot of that. And growing up, I didn't have a high self esteem Um, not because my mom didn't tell me I was pretty M so because I wasn't allowed to form my own identity U and feel confident in myself, discovering who I am. I see it. I see it. And even on that point too where you mentioned your mother in essence was isolating you, right your from your father. I've noticed that this is a standard maneuver of abusers is the social isolation of their of the person that they're targeting. And it's interesting to see mother Do that to a child. So so now, um if you're willing to talk about it is that You know, when you're talking about, there's lots of stuff happening in the house Um fromom what I understand is is your grandfather assaulting people Can you talk about that so we can understand What six or five? I was nine. You were nine. I was nine. My earliest memory of something just not being appropriate would be, you know, around the age of Fiveish Um, and when after my grandmother passed away Um It was me My mom and my grandfather all living in the house until he, you know, moved. Okay Um, and so upstairs there's a bathroom onn the second floor and it had a tub. And I remember my mom taking a bath. and My grandfather likek washing her And then she gets out of the tub. and then proceeds to put me in the tub with him And You know, I have I have this memory. Other family members have called me a liar. They do not believe this at all because they're like a tub was so small, how could two people fit in there Um I was little I was very little and You know, obviously having my grandfather expose himself like that, I was so little, I didn't I didn't think anything of it because I didn't know anything about sex or anything like that Um, but he found enjoyment and exposing himself to me And then when I was nine after a bad car accident, been with me and my mom She was left in the hospital. and somebody needed to take care of me So my grandfather stepped in and I went to live with them for a short time. And this is where the majority of the abuse happened Um, and I was confused about it I felt like it was wrong but I wasn't sure exactly why I felt it was wrong U And it wasn't until I got a little older that I started, you know, obviously learning more about sex and sexual acts that you know, it's sad that my first memories of that has to be like, oh yeah, that's what grandpa did to me Yeah know Um, and A lot of my family members are not speaking to me now because I have been so public about it Um, it's, um, It's so hard to hear incidents like this. But then in particular, Nine This is your family and this is the only a semblance of safety that that that you have which is none was Do you believe your mother was aware. I know that you said other family members are in denial of this But was your mother aware of what was happening She was aware after the fact So I had on a car ride to the hospital. It was one of my checkups I were riding in the car and I started to tell her about it. And she starts to cry And she asked me a very specific question and I said yes and she started to R And I started to backtrack. I got scared, I didn't want to see her cry, so I started to backtrack I'm like No, I No it didn and I just wasn't fully open with her about it because I could see how much she blamed herself Um And it wasn't until much later that she had told me, you know, he did the same thing to her And so she decides, hey, you know, we we can't stay here anymore mostly because of the constant drama between her and my grandfather's wife Um, It just left the house very super uncomfortable. And so my mom just thought it would be best for us to leave. We stayed at the Rona McDonald's House. in New Orleans for a few months actually. And for everyone who doesn't is not familiar with the Ronal Mconald House, he explain. So the Ron MDonald's House is essentially a home, a lodging home for children and their families while the children are going through There are doctor's appointments. It's a place for them to stay near the hospital Um, and it's at a short fee So I think it was like five dollars a night for us, I believe Um, so You know, it's crazy to say that the Ron McDonald house was kind of like, okay, that was my next home. because we stayed there so much But then my mom found seection eight housing And that's where we lived from there I feel like the constant arguments between her and her father Um, then learning of my abuse It just kind of all spiraled her more and more into this darker place. Okay o Um went in to the hospital for U Actually, you know what? I can't even remember what it was for, but I did a long time in the hospital. It was like a six month stint in the hospital. Okay And that's when they put the feeding tube in And you can't recall how you got to the hospital? My mom drove us, but I don't remember what the initial appointment was for. Okay. But you ended up then going in for six months, whichich I mean that's significant. Yeah, that's a long time and you were given a fe meaning tube And then you were placed in a wheelchair. Yes, so the wheelchair Um There's so many different stories that my mom told different people So the initial story that my mom told family was I went into the hospital then upon having surgery, I had a seizure on the operating room table. that left me paralyzed. That was the first story. Okay. Okay So course growing up That's what I thought I knew that I could walk I just want to make that clear, I need that I go off So then she goes on to tell other people well She was parallzed and doctors mind you Hell doctors that I was paralyzed since birth Even though there's pictures and there's family And there's all these people that had seen me grow up walking. So then what I believe is hard to understand is How do doctors then believe her enough to give you the feeding to give you the wheelchair How were they fooled My mom had a very like personersality was Sweet Um to the untrained eye, I guess you could say She had a very welcoming presence. U everyverybody it was like that classic southern mom High sweetie, darlin, sugar ply, know all that. Yes. And there was one doctor in particular Um that She honestly I think in my opinion, buttered up She would buy him gifts He would come and visit us at the We want a McDonald's house You know, there was this sort of friendship that I don't feel is professional You shouldn't have friendships. with your patients I see it, I see it. and so becausecause of her charisma, right? She was able to sounds like these doctors W there ever a moment where a doctor said, no and told her no. Yes, there was. And this brings us to quite a pivotal moment. There was a doctor. hisis name was Dr. Flashtenstein and or Flaschherstein, however you want to kind of say it. Um And he examined me. He was a neurologist. 'm pretty sure he's retired now, but um H asked me to stand up. in his doctor's office Now I learned this on a documentary on the documentary about myself I'm learning things about my own life in a documentary. Uh And the rough part for me is Yeah, I have a therapist and For a long time after watching the documentary, I'm like He's lying. I never I don't remember that. I never remember him asking me to stand. And then a few months ago I was laying in bed and I feel like I have two memories. And I don't know which one's real, but I think I maybe do recall him asking me to stand up. And I don't know if something it was blocking that memory But now I'm kind of like Oh my go, maybe he did and I think I did stand up. And he told my mom Point blank There's no reason why she can't walk. She go walks, she's fine And my mom left We never went to that doctor again But that doctor had put in the medical records in his notes from that day suspicion of mother with Munchausen by proxy He puts that in the medical records Now my mom would always request a copy of the medical records after every appointment We guess, me being me, my family, my attorney We all think that she's seen that in the medical records and chose to leave and not. go to that doctor again. Okay And so when a doctor leaves a report like that, then where does it go Usually it would go to Social services familyamily prrotective serervices. which they did come to my house. They come to my house They separate me and my mom, her in the living room me in my bedroom they bring a sheriff or a deputy with them? Oh my goodness.. So it was two caseworkers and a deputy And there the deputy was questioning my mom in the other room about why is there Mmm. at the end of Blanchard because It's just Blanchard. There's no E at the end But she had put an E at the end and essentially was, you know, forging all these documents. Okay, so in Blanchard, that's your last name. Yes. So Gypsy Rose Blanchard. but she's including that Yes. too throw people off To throw people off. Wow, lookook at that. And so they questioned her, you know, why is the birthdayate different? from this hospital to this hospital, How old is your daughter? When was she born? Yes. Where was she born? And she goes on to tell them a story about how You know, she had a terrible marriage with my father and he's abusive. And she put the E at the end because to avoid him finding us So I don't know what they told her if they're like Okay, fine. I get it straightened out. I don't know But in the other room where I was being questioned, they were asking me, Is there bruises on your body U C I look at your arms? C I look at your legs? So I show them my arms, I show them my legs Um And I was terrified of being taken away from my mom because my mom raised me to believe that Child services, the state, as she would call it, is evil. is bad people And so I was terrified to be taken away from my mom because at that time, yes, a lot of abuse was going on, but I also loved my mom very much and They were asking me questions that didn't pertain to Munchausen by proxy. There wasn't physical hitting, there wasn't punching There wasn't physical Ause Yes So I didn't think to say I could walk because they were asking the wrong questions And I'm not blaming them like all this is their fault. I'm just saying I think that you know, in situations like this, Munchhausen by proxy should have been looked at. If you see a child Supposedly with all these medical issues, you have a doctor that writes in his notes You know, suspicion of Munchs and by proxy, why are't you asking those questions the right questions instead of asking me if I bruises. You know if they had asked the right questions, How do you suspect I probably would have been so innocent and probably just told them the truth I guess I could walk, not knowing because I didn't know what Munchausen bip proroxy was. When you reflected back upon the procedures What were all the procedures that the doctors ended up doing on you? So the most prominent ones were of course, the feeding too. Now my mother claimed that I was having trouble swallowing. Now I have no recollection of ever having any eating Ysues Um You know, the surgery happened when I was eight. So from birth all the way to eight years old, eating perfectly fine. Yes No issues. Um, then all of a sudden go into the hospital having issues eating And they had put the temporary feeding tube through the nostril And then the doctor said, we want to do something more permanent How out, let's do a G tube. I didn't realize you had a permanent Yeah feeding tube Yeah. h So they put a permanent feeding tube And I had that all the way up until the crime happened So all the way through your teens. All the way through my teeen years So does that mean that you then never It's not that I didn't eat by mth but ate very little by mouse So I would like like mashed potatoes. I was allowed to eat that, but I was mostly fed through the feeding tube with pedasure or insure, which is just a supplemental nutrition shape So That was nine all the way to your early twenties Um, so almost two decades of having a feeding tube. What is physicallyically, physically, what does that do to you I mean, physically every six months I would have to have it changed becausecause any sort of foreign object in your body, the stomach acid is gonna erode it away. So every six months I'd have to have it changed which is very uncomfortable They don't put you under anesthesia or anything for that Um and just kind of feeling the something foreign in your body, certain clothing I couldn't wear because it would snag and pull and tug. I mean, it's an open hole into your stomach. Yes. So growing up with that, you know, it was something that I adjusted to U but it's left with a scar now that I don't have it. It looks like a a second belly button. So then Gypsy, what are some of the other procedures Okay, so if you notice I have a scar Okayang this around my neck And I also clear my throat a lot and have to drink a lot of water Um So my salibary glands that produces saliva was removed from my neet My mom would put orgeel before we would go into the doctor's appointment on my mouth need to rule ten So upon examination, the doctor saw me drool It's excessive drooling There is a way to take care of that So let's remove the salberry glands That's a major procedure And you are held when that procedure happens. That procedure happened in two thousand seven, I believe. Okay, two thousand seven. My mom always would tell me. You know I'm doing the talking Be a girl, play with your stuffed animals In other words, don' don't say anything. Right. And if you be good which and stay quiet, we get to go to Tys RS. and a toy store as soon as we leave And I would imagine too is that you're so used to going to the doctor that this is just a normal This is just routine. is routine A home when you're not in the hospital you would then just remain in your wheelchair Mhm And we our day to day lives was me in the wheelchair I didn't get up and walk around. unless she was not in the house So if she left the house to say go to the grocery store for a second I would get up and walk around. I would test the limits Yes. U Leg strength wasn't great. Obviously because I haven't hadn't been walking like normal him but just to kind of Feel I cant walking Did you ever think we' bring up the fact that you could walk I did I did it many times and it always resulted in an argument and it always resulted in some form of it bringing All of it back to her. L, you don't love me You, um You know, I'm supposed to be the one you trust, I'm supposed to be the one you love U, but if you feel like you can go and do better with your dad then Like it was always like this level of manipulation. L any time that I would bring up, I'm not as sick as you're saying. It was always an argument And then I felt like I had lost a mom. And I didn't want to lose my mom And so You know, some would say I went along with that perspective is everything. Yeah. If you want to say I went along with it Okay, but look at the reasons behind it You have a child? That wants her mom to love her Yes You know, that that really hit me because I I see that accident Mm I also see that was happening in her house. I see the circumstances in which you were born unknowing what's happened to your mother you know, in her childhood Yeah and how each incident created to the spiral, as you mentioned and you feel as if You're losing our mom And so you're just fighting to keep her. And sometimes fighting to keep her is just staying silent. Yes Did you feel Love from anyone outside of the love that you assumed that your mother was providing you But did you feel love? and when I say love is this emotional safety, physical safety Did you feel that with anyone Backs in? Yes No Did you feel it with your mother? Yes for for a time U M tell got a little older Okay. So when you begin to not have feel that love And now that you reflect back as an adult is What was happening for you? What was going on for you as a child who doesn't feel safe emotionally or physically There was anger towards her So I felt allowing My grandfather to take care of me at that time and so I I blamed her for what happened to me. with getting molested and There was resentment that boiled up You know, it wasn't there in early childhood because I was so innocent. Um, but then the more time went on, the more anger and resentment built up Like You don't let me go over to dad's and spend nights over or weeks over with dad Um I can never keep a friend. I might have a friend for a week. And then all of a sudden, my mom starts to get jealous of this friend.. And we're talking a child. You know, we're talking an eight year old child that you're getting jealous of U. And there was always something that was wrong or off about that child. so I could no longer have that friend And it happened over and over and over again. You know, most people have that best friend child, you know, the best friend growing up as a child. I never had that Never. never had that. And that was continuous cycle for everyone in my life Um And so it's like I knew No matter who it would be that I would get close to It wouldn't matter because they they would be You know, They wouldn't be in my life forever. The only forever was my mom And with your mother, it seems like everything then you did was was with her. Everything. Everything. Did even in when you were in the same house, did you I read that you slept in the same bed. You slept in the same bed. The only time that I was ever sleeping in my own room in my own bed was as a punishment. Interesting. Okay whichich is a small child, you know, I mean Young child, I grew up, I loved sleeping with my mom as a child. Um, and I was afraid of the dark And so a punishment of mine would be, you know, you have to sleep in your room And I would cry and I would cry and I would beg to go back to sleep with her Um But it's certain things in parenting that it's like you need to showh your child gain some independence and not make independence a punishment. Yes,. Yes, Yes, absolutely and I wouldon' imagine now more so than anything you're You're very aware. Oh, yes, I'm very Yes of that Uh What have you enjoyed doing as a child. As a child, you know I loved playing outside. I loved as a small, small child I had a bunch of cousins. and we'd do cousins by the dozinens night. all the cousins would come over, we would do sleepovers Um I love to watch TV. I love dressing up Um, loveve Disney movies Pling with my dolls and hot wheels, like my toys and my mom was like my comfort. Okay. And I could see how she used the toy store because that was it. Yeah. It was the toys. I loved a good hot wheel myself. Yeah. they are good collectors. Yeah. Yeah, very good, very good. There's been an endless number of documentaries, TV specials extended podcasts about your about your life It centers around your childhood Uh the crime, Is there anything that you want to clarify that you've seen or heard about from these documentaries that you do believe is inaccurate That's a load of questions. I mean Nothing that I I could really touch on specifically I mean, all I know is that, you know, from Fr birth. to, you know, five years oldish, you know, the The simplicity of having my mom even with the medical stuff I loved my mom so much at that. My mom was my world I see she was everything And the only thing she had. Real quick, hit follow and tap the bell icon. It allows us to continue bringing you this show that we all love can go anywhere in the world right now. I'm in L.A. And we'll bring you the most And the only thing it cost you is D hit follow and tap the bell icon You then start dating. Kind of. Kind of sort of. Kind of How does that happen? and also how does your mother react to that because you just mentioned when it comes to platonic friends She She runs them away. So so how does yeah, how do you start doing that Well, my mom How do I put this? My mom was very anti men. Oce my father broke her heart, It's kind of like I grew up with a mom that became Bitter. I'm just gonna to put it out there bititter that every man is a horrible douchebag that is just out to hurt everyone So my mom never, like my mom wanted me to be a nun literally and she was gonna to put me in a coning. So like she really wanted mee to be a nun, even though I never expressed to her that I wanted to be one Um So knowning that I always knew she didn't want me to date You can't stop the curiosity in a child or a teen. And that's where I was at. You know, I was curious about the opposite sex. I was wondering, you know, so and so lives down the street. She has a boyfriend. And I started comparing my life to other, you know people around my age. Watching the Disney channel, they have these sort of pseudo boyfriends on TV shows and stuff. Yes. So I started getting curious, but I got curious in the wrong way So instead of you know, obviously, Kids meet other kids via school I wasn't in school. So I went to the internet. And I found creeps on the internet I did things on the internet I'm not proud of, like take my clothes off for strangers. Um these um, men that I would, you know, meet online He We're predatory and I wasn't Thinking anything different other than yeah, this is an experience that I've had before So the normal. It is normal So it's kind of like I made a secret Facebook account that she didn't know about U I was adding strangers on there, you know, meeting what I thought would be friends. Yes. and then We went there was a of like, I don't know if you know what C comomic Con is. Oh yeah orr like a sci fi convention type of thing. So there was one that would happen in Springfield, Missouri every year. It was called Vision Con. Okay. And so anyway, my mom takes us to this convention And we meet lots of nice people. We have a great time. I dressed up like a princess. like it was fun. U I started adding all these people that went to the convention on my Facebook timeim And they would say like, oh, it was so nice to see you at the convention. So at least there was some level of like interaction, like, oh, you were at the convention, so was I. Um And there was a guy that was at the convention. He sent me a Facebook request His name was Dan and he was much older than I was So I was, um, The real age eighteen. eighteen, nineteen But my mom was trying to pass me off as fifteen Okay, so He thought that I was fifteen Okay. He was thirty six at the time. And started talking on Facebook and just on Facebook Funny was cute And he was kind of digging me too Is this your first kind of interaction pseudo romantic. Yeah. Yeah. okay. okay So we flirted for a while and then I start telling him more about my life and My mom had caught us talking on the phone And she threatened him Oh well And then found I was going through my mom's purse and I found my My health insurance card And it said my birthday was nineteen ninety one. And so I'm like, that would make me like eighteen nineteen Not fifteen So I tell this to him Like I can I live with you Like, you know, like all this sort of like ideas. Yes And he's like, well, if you're legal, then you could just get up and leave. L you can just Cal leave And I'm like, I don't have a car, I don't have a way to leave And so he's like, I'll take you as far as Arkansas Lsike we live together on a ranch in Arkansas So o weeks go by, I get a text from him that he's in the hospital that he wants me to join him in the hospital. He wants someone to be there with him. m, he got beat up So I pack a bag. And in the middle of the night I get out of my mom's bank ag bag, go out the front door Hitchhike, meet him at the hospital And he didn't have a home He was couch surfing at his friends. And so We go to his friends They. They realize that I'm there, and they recognize me from the convention. And they realize Girl fifteen years old. So they got in contact with a mutual friend of my mom's told my mom where I was Four hours later, my mom comes to pick me up and She told me, she's like, if you come back with me I'll let you see him. Mipulation to the fullest So I get in the car, I'm like, okay I mean, at this time, I'm like all courage and I'm like, I know I'm nineteen and I know that I could see him. Yes. And she's like, if you come back with me, I will let you see him So I go back with my mom and that's when I got chain tied To me all these, you know, words restrained to the bed. happened for two weeks you were Tie tie tied to the bed So what my mom did was she took a dog leash and Cipped it and tied it to a pair of like handcuffs and then put it around the bed And then whenever like I would need to go to the bathroom, she would undo it. And then like she had away like because we're in the same bed. so if she could tell if I would move or whatever, she'd wake up And it was like that for two weeks She put bells on the doors and then eventually put a padlock on the door U blacked out all the windows with tent, like window tent Um That's when she started hitting me though That's when the hitting started At this point you're, you know you're eighteen, nineteen, but she's telling you that You're fifteen. Yes Y relationship with your mother, do you perceive to still love you I didn't feel like it was love I felt like it was a need Like she needs me because she doesn't have anyone else U and So it's like after she tied me up, I gained enough trust to her I'm like, I'm not going to leave again. I'm not gonna leave again. Don't worry about it. I'm not going to leave Um So that trust was built up enough to be let off the chain Well then it's like soon after I attempt to run away again. Oh wow, okay But this time like she found and looking back on her, I'm like Why pack a damn bag? justust get out of the freaking house? becausecause I kept packing bags, like let me pack a bag.. She found my bag And so she knew I was G to run away again. And so and I owned up to it too. I was like Just let me leave and I will you'll never see me again. I'm, you know Forget about me, J let me go and She's like, I won't and I can't you're not leaving. And that's when I proceeded to take a BB gun and I knew full and well it was a BB gun. It was not going to kill her. T. I took a BB gun and she came toward me and I freaked out and I released the BabB gun Um, one hit her in the clavicle, one hit in the leg They were superficial wounds You know, they broke the skin, but ultimately a bandid covered it up U And then after that happened, like bothoth had this moment of like, sit on the bed Holy shit moment and I was never the type to be violent. I never yelled at my mom. I never hit my mom. It was like it was at that moment that I realized that something in me snap that I could snap in that big of a way What was your mother's response I honestly feel like she never expected to be trapped in her own choices, her own Design was falling apart in front of her And I don't think that she realized that and I don't mean this in any sort of mean way But I don't think she realized I had the guts to stand up for myself in any meaningful way And so is it at this point where you then join the the Christian dating site I did about a year later. Okay. About a year later. I had joined the Christian website And then the first thing that I noticed of Nick's profile is he likes to play video games Chatting back and forth. Does your mother become aware So I had a secret Facebook, I had, you know, a secret Skype account. Okay. I have a conversation with him that I want to meet him We want to meet each other in real life. Wow, Gypsy. So how long had you Nick been corresponding with Hving been It was like Two years. Two years. A two years. Yeah. You had never met. N met Okay Um Yeah, I mean it was just like kind of like Skype calls and stuff like that on the all on the internet. Okay and So we make a plan and I'm like, listen, my mom is not going to just let me just date anybody. So maybe if she meets you, she could see what a nice person you are, And she'll like you, you could be my friend. and then like I can ask her if, you know, you could maybe be my boyfriend And then we won't have to hide or lie anymore So We think of this event like where where possibly could I be and you be And I wanted to see the new Cinderella remake The live action Rate that came out in twenty fifteen Mhm So we decide, okay That's where we're going to meet up So my mom and I are gonna to go see the movie and you're going to be there too to see the movie, but we're not together meet like, we never met I see it. I see it.. So We're standing in line, you know, comes the day. We're standing in line getting popcorn and stuff like that And he's there alone But I didn't realize the optics of how that would look. Like here's this Sy that's alone, doesn't have kids, doesn't have a girlfriend doesn't have a wife, nothing like that. Just go and see a little girl movie I did not see how that would be weird Until you got there. No, until years later, I'm like, you know what? yeah, that was kind of creeed me. Like what were we thinking But my mom called it. She's like, this guy is giving me weird vibes. And so we're in the auditorium Well, he comes sit. Next to me Oh wow. okay. My mom. decides, Hey, this guy's kind of giving me the creeps. So she moved several seats down I stay put Ium'es in with him my movies Pissed that I didn't move with her So throughout the whole movie, you know, she's sitting there and I'm sitting over there with him. She's mad at me at this point. Like I know I'm in trouble at this point. Yes. And He and I had previously discussed that We were going to have sex in the bathroom So I know to the bathroom, to the men's bathroom Go with the handicssole. He follows me in We attempt to have sex. doesn't work out and I go back sit You know sit next to my mom. She proceeds to take me to the bathroom on the opposite side slaps me across the face. and says you were going too long What were you doing So I was like, nothing, no, nothing. You know, of course I'm going to say nothing, nothing, nothing. Right So the movie ends We lean H And We have a huge argument at the house. You and your mother? Me and my mom. Okay. aboutb how she got the creeps from this guy, like why I didn't go sit with her, like the smallest little things would just kind of set her off So I'm like, I'm sorry. I was just trying to make a new friend. You know, I was doing my best to kind of like bridge that connection because I really wanted You know, I really wanted both of them in my life I wanted my mom in my life And I want a nick in my life and She was not budging She got a bad vbe from him from the beginning you and Nick then just continue messaging back and forth and continue messaging And you feel like this is your boyfriend still. U and then your mother your relationship with your mother, does it continue to deteriorate there? Continues to deteriorate. and we had previously Yes, knocked around the idea of murder And it was from all stemming from a conversation where he's like, it was it was an argument between me and my mom. stuff got physical, She hit me. I told him she hit me And he's like, I'm going to protect you from anyone I said anyone Anyone I said, even my mom And he said, yes, even your mom And I'll take her out too and never thinking that that was actually going So for you, it wasn't A serious thought It wasn't a serious talk until after what happened at the movie theater. Okay Okay, so really, so after the movie theater, then at that point you were help me understand how it became a serious thought after the movie theater? Because that's when I started to realize like no matter what I do, I will never be able to be my own person, never have my own freedom, never made my own choices. I'll never get married. all of the thoughts of like What is my life going be like in the next twenty and thirty years Is it gonna be like this right here? Is my life? G continue to be this For the rest of my life my youth gone any happy moments of future children, anything like this How long is this going to continue And that thought kept going in my head over and over and over again So yes, the desperate thought of I want my mom out of the picture And it's like I didn't want her Dead necessarily If she would have went to prison, I would have been all the happier. B That unfortunately was a conversation he and I had So you had it. And also I'm curious Gypsy, at this you are roughly how old because I know age wise Um You don't know exactly. I was I was twenty three Okay, o, you were twenty three. So so this this is even more fascinating because you're an adult at this point but you still feel as if you are trapped in your mother's home and you'll never be able to leave it. Right. Literally U The relationship with Nick as well is How would you characterize it? Because I've seen moments or excerpts where It's been characterized as abusive But how do you characterize That relationship It was toxic. Toxic, very, very toxic. Okay. how so U, our personalities Um, we're not a good Not a good fit. Our backgrounds was not a good fit U I I say and I say this in my book You know Nick was the car. I was the key Um He was the gasoline, I was the fire separately Probably not dangerous together catastrophic becausecause he brought a component to me and I brought a component to him that resulted in trag. you know, his conversations with me was predominantly about sex. It was predominantly about overpowering a woman. because he had an interest in this BDSM Um master slave relationship. And he had this with his ex girlfriends as well. So it it it was before me during me and after me. So this is not something I brought to the relationship. This is something that he had a thing for Um And I had not heard of, you know, this sort of master slave relationship until meeting him And so I did what I could to fulfill that fantasy for him And that included making videos that we would send back and forth to each other. Um, Those videos have now been released to the public Is that because of the courourt case or for other reasons. o. They are quite humiliating because these videos were intimate They're not meant for the public. They were meant for nick and nickon only at the time Um, but anything from you know, doing sexual acts to saying really disturbing things that I definitely Regret later on now I think what's important for I think us all to understand too is context because from what I understand is you had no one else Right. So literally your world revolved around than your mother And Nick to people that you are desperately in need of loving you. Do you believe They loved you I believe my mother loved me to an extent. I think that she didn't know how to show love I think that Unfortunately, you know, she didn't get the mental help. the mental health help that she would have needed to understand how to love a child and have raise a child on her own. Um, going through the childhood that she had. U Nick, I do not believe he loved me one bit. I believe that I was someomeone Wh was in a very specific situation U Vulnerable situation Tw fill out his fantasies , he often had fantasies that were very disturbing. Could you open the sameing way? Rpe fantasies Um and he was looking for someone who was not worldly. and experienced U So someone in a very vulnerable state to live out these fantasies with or to and Like I said, it would be one thing if I brought a certain element into the relationship that was equally as disturbing Like if those were my desires, but it wasn't Um and Before me, you know, his ex girlfriends did warn me because there was there was an ex girlfriend that did warn me that he has very disturbing behavioral patterns and I brushed it off like She's just a jealous ex girlfriend and I completely ignored it Um And then until it was too late And then also Post Post me, post our relationship He's went on to have another relationship prison relationships and where he continues the same Cycles over and over again going to the crime What I understand was catalyst for you also was was it your throat that was going to be It was going to be like biopsy explored. explored and they were going to, you know, have to do more things to my throat, but on my my voice box this time. Be. Okay so you were so if you could take take me to that because it seems like that that was an important moment for for you. Yes, like it was it was a moment where I was like had already had throat surgery already Um And it was it was a rough surgery And so the thought of going through another procedure, that I'm like, well, this time, you're going you're going start messing with my voice And that's terrifying. Um You know, I I felt like how much more are you going to take from me And so June tenth twenty fifteen if you can takeake me to day. or even the preceding day. me through it step by step, what you were thinking, what was going on for you? So I knew that that was the day. I had been texting with Nick. He said You might want to start saying your goodbyes And so I just remember My mom and I said We're going to paint our nails whenre watch a movie And I wanted to make it a good night. like I wanted to make it a night that I felt like I would remember her for the good So She cooked dinner, she ate her dinner. I painted her nails, she painted my nails U picked out a movie and Lay down She took a little longer to fall asleep and then I fell asleep. Then I woke up shortly. nightays after she fells asleep I texted An that she fell asleep Um and I said The gloves are on the porch And he's like, okay, I'm taking a cab over And he knock like he didn't knock on the door. he texted me He's like, I'm here So I get up out of bed and I walk over open the door First thing he said when he comes to the door is this bitch is dead out of on like Be be quiet, be quiet And he's like, Where's the knife So I hand him the knife And he say, get your Sleep an ass to the bathroom. So I go to the bathroom, I close the door, I lock the door behind me And I just kind of get into the fetal position and I cover my ears. Um and nots That's what happened If and at any point, you don't want to discuss this. can we can move on. A few questions though that I have is so goingo into that day, it sounds like over the last maybe two, you've known Nick now for what? two years, three years Yeah there you have discussed murder previously with him, he's had fantasies of raping, murdering Um How did you No, how did you why did you believe that it was actually going to happen on this day I honestly didnid't think that he was going go through with it until it actually happened U, and then after it happened There was a point where I didn't process what happened He was walking around the house and talking at a normal voiced tone And I was like, You're going to wake her up Like they There was a level of distance from the situation where like I was still She was dead in the other room and I'm still thinking I'm afraid she's gonna wake up. see you in the house and you know, punish me in some type of way to see your mother No I did not go in that room I nick actually anytime because Her room is like right here. my room is right here and then there's the hall And so he would block her room. so anytime I was walking in and out of my room, he would block the area so I couldn't see. Now, I'm I know that you're aware of how severe the murder was And I understand he used the knife that you provided him and that Uh the stab The stabbing was so severe that it almost severed her head Did he talk about the murder at all There was no discussion. No discussion of it. not Not after the fact, No. Okay Did you when in the bathroom? because I would imagine there was a There was a tussle, there was a There was a fight that ensued Did you hear anything? Yes You did Can you say what did you hear? I heard screaming and it was Like Horrible sound. It was a horrible sound. It was screaming, it was shock I almost think I heard Who are you was asked and And I am right because u acccording to some of the transcripts of Nick's testimony. and other inmates that had talked to him She had asked, Who are you He responded, I am deaath Um So I do know that that was probably what I heard. Um And I remember her calling out for my name and like I wanted to go and help her. Like I felt like I wanted to go and help her, but I was terrified at the same time. like my body was paralyzed I couldn't move Um And I just kept remembering Breeze. Remember to just breathe. and I kept telling myself in that mind just breathe and I was so focused on like trying to breathe and block it out And I just remember one sharp scream and then nothing after that And then I realized it was Orah And then he came to the bathroom door and knocked for me to open up the door What did he say to you Um He didn't, I don't think he say anything. He He had cut his finger And so he wanted me to bandage him up And he wanted me to be completely naked when I opened up the door And so I was completely naked Um and He wanted me to hug him So There was this sort of embrace where it was I was in a state of shock that I couldn't Believe What happened and H Now I better understand knowing is previous desires BSM and what he had said to you previously Now I understand why he said When you come when I come to the door, you should be naked. I understand that he then assaulted you. Yes. that specifically was really difficult because prior to having the crime happen He wanted to assault my mom That was his fantasy. He wanted to assault my mom I felt like that was too far I was like, no, I will not, you know, do it to me instead And he said, fine That's that's the That's the price you have to pay then. If you don't want me to do that to your mom, you're going to have to let me do it to you. And I agreed So, come to that point Keep in mind I was a virgin. come to that point I guess I agreed to something I didn't fully understand and That's allll say about time And what's even more horrible is I had to testify in court And I had to open and honest and say that I had to basically say He didn't Right me because Got me to agree to it So is it Even though I said stop I said no stop. you're hurting me But because I previously agreed to it Now I'm confused What is consensual Yeah, I thought consent is given and removed in a moment's notice I thought so too, but apparently not in the court' s eize. So because you had verbally or in a text said that you were open to having sex that that gave him O consent And in the eyes of the court, they feel the same way too has I told the court I said stop And they said Did he rape you and They have evidence that I agreed to it So I said no knowing full and well that he did This is in court was this is in What state was this? This is Missouri? This is in Missouri. Okay, o Yeah, that's u That's That's that's a Horrendous law there And so Um after the assault How do you feel in that moment? If you can go back It was also you have to understand that There was Yes, there was this assault and yes, there was u the crime But Nick had also claimed that he has multiple personalities So During this whole time, he's switching back and forth between personalities Um I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Slit. Yes. I. it was like that where you can just change just like that. So The person that murdered my mother His name is Victor N not Nick. Okay personers who assaulted me So in my mind These are two completely different people I'm not looking at the you know, the person that just assaulted me and Nick is being the same person I'm I'm thinking, okay, you know, One means to hurt me but also save me And the other one is just You know, the Nick that I had been talking to for two plus years So I was compartmentalizing at the time And did you at the time, did you believe that he was multiple people in essence. Yes. Okay, you did. I fully believed it. Like I said, I grew up with a mom that heard voices, saw things So It's pretty gullible to just believe about anything. Now I see. So then what do you two do at this point So we go back because he was staying at a hotel nearby So we go back to the hotel fan Um, I also had been self medicating. I had developed an addiction to opiates So I was taking Three. Xanaxess and Ficids all together And I was very, very high after the fact U Ordering pizza giggling, laughing Not a care in the world And this is In the house? No, no, no, no, no in the hotel. in the hotel. In the hotel. Okay. N day And so you both left your mother's body in the house. Y. wasas there thoughts on we're going to cover this up or the thought was There was there was no thought. It was There was no thought. It was just. It was just live live and and every This step was not planned It was literally after it happened It was run. run to a different state. Forget about it. it didn't exist So you went to the hotel dered pizza. You're just chilling. Chilling Wing shows, having a good time. And so then, twenty four hours at a certain point You post or or who post So one of the two people post, you post. Okay. And what do you post So we were already back in Wisconsin at this time, that's where he lived Um and I logged into my mom's Facebook account. because I did not like the idea of her just being there I felt very unsettled, very uncomfortable with it. like that level of remorse and just like, I want her found. She deserves a proper burial So I want her found So I log into her Facebook account. And I back to what he said when he came in the house. The bitch is dead So that's what I put My mom hardly ever cussed, especially around people So that's what I put to seem alarming. So Authorities could go. and find her and then then she could be given a burial What about did you discuss that with Nick to post? that or that was just you I'm pretty sure that was just me Okay. Did it draw the authorities? It did. Okay Ultimately, the goal that I wanted to have her found nd Okay So she's found by the police then what happens to you Nick They think that I U was kidnapped. I was missing So to the authorities, I was missing Um Now also you have to understand that my brain was not functioning in a logical way because I went around the house before we left the scene taking down all the pictures of me, thinking that I would not exist if there would just be no pictures of me around the house didn't sense at all Um So Days go by, they think I'm missing Then all of a sudden they track the IP address to his house fromrom the post From the post that you made. interestnteresting. Okay. Right. because whoever posted that was aware of what happened. Exactly. Okay. I was not aware of technology thats smart Um, So they track the IP address and then the next morning we wake up to the sound of a barking dog, which is was actually the canine unit Um, and to Police squads surrounding the house in armored vehicles. Oh my goodness, okay. And I told him I was like, What do I say Like what do I say? What do I do? Um, and he said I'm gonna tell the police. that your mom kicked you out that you that you were kicked out and your mom, u Got mad at you, so you left And I came to pick you up and you don't know what happen putut me in a cop car U then They asked me once they had me in cuffs Does he have any weapons? Does, you know have any bombs or anything? And I'm like, no Um So they got him to come down. they take him into custody in a separate car and they bring us to the police station in separate cars. And then as you're ed to the police station. what are you thinking? Is it that you fool them because you took the photos down and I I was honestly u Terrified for Nick I was terrified for him because at that point, I didn't think how I didn't see how I can get into new trouble. Um You know, I I'm like I just had a conversation with him Kid huh So in my mind, I was definitely down playing my part Okay. So how you get to the station, he would then He would be in trouble and I told him, it was like, we I had stole money out of my mom's stae Um, it was like five thousand, four thousand five thousand dollars. And with that money, I was like, I'm gonna get you the best lawyer possible. We're talking like O.J Simpson, amazing lawyer Um because I had no concept of money You know, and how much things cost So You know, I'm still fully in love with Nick at this point Yes. wanting I don't want him to be in trouble. I want to get him out of there. Um I'm not seeing the scope of how I'm in trouble too. Okay When do you then realize You're in trouble too upon being charged with first degree murder goes through your mind when you hear that Um terrified because that holds with it, is it Life, where is that Life without parole. Life without parole So then you're immediately incarcerated Okay. And for what I understand is and then you remain incarcerated until just a few years ago. Y Walk me through the case because You made it clear to tell me right there, I was still in love with Nick At what point do you fall out of love with Nick? Is it during the case? It was, u I think and I I look back on this too and I feel like it was You know, Nick had been the only one other than my mom that I was talking to for, you know, two plus years So it was like the moment that I had any significant amount of time away from him. That's when I started to be able to think on my own and think about, is this relationship healthy? What is it that I love about him Um Am I romanticizing The crime that we just committed U as an act of saving me O is there something more sinister that I didn't see before And then during that time you're going through the court procedure You're now off the opioids I know that you you've reflected upon That murder multiple times, multiple times, multiple times What's then you're feeling towards your mother and what happened I was so upset with Family and with The media because we're only allowed one legacy in this life You know, when someone passes away, all they have left is their name and I was feeling regret and remorse about allowing the media to paint her as a villain when I'm like thing is is What if she's not a villain, but rather just a very sick womoman. that needed help So I started to feel a lot of guilt about that U And then upon getting to prison is when I started to feel Hello. and the loss of Okay, I'm never going to see her again. I'm never going to be able to have this closure moment to ask her well, you know, why this, why that Would she forgive me Um There's no closure on either side There were court proceedings for you. But there was a trial was a trial for Nick. Why is that the case because I was offered a plea deal So the The prosecutor felt like there was enough evidence to Enough mitigating evidence to offer me a plea deal. to tenen years in the Department of Corrections Um Take it early So I took it Now, I know that there was and it's this is right around the time when you hit my level of awareness, you know, my radar because this case. Or should I say, this moment was all over the news. It was everywhere. It was it was Headline newews And I recall there being Tw schools of thought around that plea deal for you. orr should I say three schools of thought. One was Okay, that sounds about right. Another was no way. she deserves Life in sentence were worse or a life in prison or worse. And another is no, she should get off entirely, completely When you reflect on a ten year plea deal for your participation in murdering your mother Do you believe that was the correct sentence No You don't I feel like If I would have spent the rest of my life in prison, that would have been fair. for the crime That was committed goodness. goodness So then You feel as if Nick was given the right sentence. Yes I don't feel like, um I don't feel like he should be free Um But I do feel like He does need a lot of mental help. therapy that needs to be done with him and prison does not rehabilitate you to the best of their ability in the mental health space They just don't Um But yeah, if if if that would have been the outcome. That would have been Fair for the crime that was committed Now, do I also understand where the prosecution was coming from by offering me Mercy I do. So I'm appreciative for the second chance that I've been given. But I understand where people are coming from with feeling like the sentence didn't match the crime That's profound for you to say that veryer profound wereere you aware of the imed of the media attention. that The story got around the world but namely in the United States. Not to the degree that it was you hear little bits from other inmates and what their families tell them But there is not a lot especially in jail You're not even allowed to watch read your own articles. If you're If they make a story and you're in it, they take it out. they rip it out. So interesting. o. All of the papers had like these little cutouts and holes and everything because obviously it was such a big case, but I couldn't read any of it and I couldn't watch any of it. Anyt timeime it would come on the news, the guards would Turn off the TV So I was so kept from it That's interesting. So you only knew through other inmates through the family and friends of the other inmates. They would talk to, ye. They would talk to. and then they would tell you. Yeah. And what were you hearing? What were they telling you? I mean, a range of different things like, man, your case is really big, like everybody's talking about it.. But but other than that, that's it. And then I went to prison and then obviously when the act came out, who lose the act blew up like that was insane. I went from just being just a case to now being a TV character. Okay. Did you while in prison, did you see the act? I did not. No. I heard about it because I was getting lots of fan mail and talking about it. And they would ask me questions and I didn't know what they were referring to because they had c they had a lot of tweaks and changes that never happened in my real life. so the things that they were referencing happen in the show Okay. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Okay. But no now, hold on, Gypsy. You said you received a lot of fan mail What was when was the first or what was the first fan mail that you received and how did you feel knowing that you received Padmail. So Before the act came out, a documentary The first documentary was HBO's Mommy Dead Endearest, directed by Eron Lee Carr And after that documentary I was receiving a lot of mail and it was supportive mail. I really don't like saynding fan mail, but it was a lot of supportive mail from people all around the world that watch this documentary And my story resonated with them for some reason. And I'm curious in that, Gypsy, what were they writing to? What were they saying tellelling me about their lives, a lot of them were very open to opening up about their own traumas Um, they felt like they could relate in some way or another. Um and it was It was where I didn't feel so alone Like I started to realize that there was a lot more people out there that goes through some really hard stuff in their life. U and I was able to form friendships with these pen pals over time That's interesting it's interesting So Prison So it's much different. than your previous, you know, living situation. Very much. How did you adjust to prison to living there I adjusted quite well, I feel U it was a new more freedom than I had ever had in my life And it it's It's crazy when people hear that for me, but it's the truth In prison I was able to You know, find myself In a controlled environment But I was able to make friends Making friends is not easy, especially as an adult, but I was able to make choices for myself. Discover who I am, discover what kind of music I like Um Run around. Go to the gym Go to school I got my GED while I was in prison So and and I um I want to say this delicately, but I'll just say it is that So initially did you enjoy your time I I won't say that it's enjoy. I will say it's live in a new way Okay, so you enjoyed living. It was enjoyment in a new way. because yeah, there was enjoyment, but at the same time The sacrifice is time that I missed from my family that wanted a relationship with me You know, that's eight and a half years of me watching My sister grow up, go to prom, my brother get married, you know, all these life moments that now I cannot join with them in U that I'm having to watch from afar, that is the punishment Okay. U Prison itself I had a routine, I had a job. I didn't So much mind living there. If I had no family to go home to, Prison probably wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world Interesting Yeah, and also thinking that you never didn't have any friends So so your entire life haaven't had any friends You don't know how to navigate that you haven't had experiences of people Um, you know, being your friend for all terrior reasons or not. So how did you navigate that in prison. I'm still navigating that to this day. But I will say I was blessed to have two really good friends. that I'm still friends with to this day They are both currently still locked up U But there was never a time where I felt taken advantage of by them And for me, that's big. No I also know in prison is where you metant Your previous husband? Yes, Yes. So let's talk about that. Oh gosh. Oh Godd first How do you Meet Mary someone being in prison. How do you do that? Well, I had received a letter from a man that's local, like a Louisiana born native. So I was like, o it's someone, you know from My neck of the woods, you know, a Louisiana Cjun boy. Yes. U So I wrote back and He seemed very sweet and we made friends. It's not like we got into a relationship right out the gate But, um He made me laugh that was something that is needed sometometimes in prison. Sometimes you just need someone to make you laugh Okay. All right. I see it. I see it. So now How many thenen were supportive We're writing you supportive letters. that I wrote back to or no? Or, not that you wrote back to. I'm just curious What was the incoming like for? I mean, the incoming, I was getting a mixed, you know, I would get Hundreds of letters Um And what time period? hundredundreds And I mean, I would say in the months after a documentary or the act came out. and it got to be where the prison no longer had physical mail They have tablets now with its own email system Okay. So the emails would come in through that certain system And it was hundreds, you know, over the course of the next few months after the act came out. I mean, that's exactly how I met my current Boyfriend I mean, That's I met My current boyfriend before I met my ex husband Did you? Yes. so. My current boyfriend, his name is Ken Okay He wrote me after watching Mommy Dead Endearest It was a supportive letter, not on any kind of romantic level He gave me his work schedule. I gave him a call within five minutes of talking on the phone. I felt like we had known each other our whole lives besties. Really? All right, you have to help me on this. His dating, this is a spot an area that I know, but I don't know about prison dating. Yeah. All right, so he sends you a letter In the letter, he includes his schedule. Yeah, like like work time, this is my phone number. This is when I work. So he's already then approaching you in a romantic way. No. I mean that's just calls or calls. I mean, it's not like you can you know, do very much, but like calls is how you You know, talk to people, get to know people. So you're getting hundreds of supportive mail and email how many of those are people trying that you believe are trying to actively engage in a romantic relationship with you I mean, I would say about like sixty percent of them Um I have my own thoughts on that. Yes. please because I know that that is a fetish Okay, I have my thoughts. Okay my thought is that I didn't get a chance to watch the documentary until I was already out of prison. So upon watching the documentary, From what I kind of gather is you know, watching my story and then kind of watching where I was at that time I feel like men instinctually want to protect. and then I'm also a chronic flirt So that's my thoughts All right. What was in the early time in prison What do you believe your self esteem levels were? Very low, veryery low. veryery low. Okay. All right So It must have been a thrill, then to get this the support of mail because it's. It's validation. It's external validation. Absolutely. Right. That I can also see it's very hard then to discern who to respond to So you're you're you have a ongoing relationship or messaging back and forth with can. But then also, so then how does Ryan into play. Brian, Okaykay, so Ken and I dated and my parents, you know, he got to meet my parents. We got engaged. After two years, we got engaged. Oh my goodness. okay. It made e newews. It was all over the news. It was all over every media tabloid Um, And He left me. Iended Yeah, he dumped me. in October, it was the day after his birthday Same year we got engaged Um, He left me and When I tell you, we still sometimes have arguments about him, you know, I say abandoning because that, you know, prison was the time that I needed Someone. I needed support, I needed someone to ride or die with me through the thick and the thin of it, you know And I felt like he was going to be that one and for him to Turn off all emotion and not answer my calls and then go on to get into another relationship. He got with another girl literally two months after leaving me Uh and went on to have a four and a half year relationship with that woman. And so Also twenty twenty was the year of COVID So Ryan wrote me During COVID after watching the documentary and unfortunately his His was a lot different than Ken's though Okay, can A friend of his named Diane had watched my documentary first and was like, Hey, you gotta watch this documentary. It's so good And they watched it together Whereas Ryan watched it Th was at work haaving a conversation with a coworker The coworker said, Aunt, I've been watching a lot of things about Tiger King Oh And then Ryan was like, Well, if you write Tiger King, I'll write Gypsy Rose Bancher And then it was on a dare Okay And at the time I was like, okay, it's whatever whatever. Um So twenty twenty was a very lonely year for me and He made me laugh and there were many times that I felt like I was not physically attracted to him by I was getting emotional comfort so much so that you know, when he was like, I want to get married, like there were several times I told him, I'm like I just think of you like a brother or like I think of you like Hudu budy you know, um But he was always has to be romantic, has to be romantic, has to be romantic Um And then later, you know the prison emails between us back and forth were released to the public And people could see how he was so aggressive at wantning The relationship or nothing And so essentially I married him for the wrong reasons. I was like, I felt like I settled No I didn't want to die alone And I wanted to at least prove to myself that I could maybe move past My heart brereak with Ken and go on to marry someone and be okay with just that And I wasn't. We we were married for like a year and a half. And and even the marriage, so the marriage The actual wedding ceremony must have taken place in prison. It did in the visitation room by the bathroom. Okay, Romantic. Yes, romantic. Yes And who then attends your wedding. The only person that I attended was my my friend OGi friend Um And my parents couldn't come, I think because like the COVID stuff was still going on. So there was so much limiting how much interaction, how many people could come visit at one time, I think. So it was just My friend and that's it. So I have to ask this too is By this time, you had served how many years in prison Seven, seven and a half Okay, seven and a half Okay you had served seven and a half years and you felt as if you had only a few more years left because you didn't know if you'd be released early. Right or not I had my parole hearing in December of twenty twenty one Okay And so I knew when I would be going home. I knew my release date Wow. A that time. So you knew you were within a year So then gypsy. Why why do it? Why? Do it Okay, well Because I was not parolling to the state of Missouri, I was parolling to the state of Louisiana, I had to enter into something called an interstate compact So what that means is You can parole to a spouse or a family member, but you cannot parole to a boyfriend So I could have parooled to my family I had that option before I met Ryan That was my plan. And then I met Ryan and then of course, I wanted to live with my boyfriend who had been waiting a few years for me So, you know, I just I struggled with Do I go live with my family or do I go live with a partner that has been waiting for me you know? um And so that was the benefit of why then. Okay. I see it. Yeah. I see it So what in the world happens? How do you brereak up Well, I I get released I get released and u I go home with him. We had an apartment in Lake Charles. and I'm not gonna say that I was unhappy. I was not unhappy Um, We had taken like a trip to New York Um, because we were filming a reality TV show essentially U Esentially or you were. you were were. L, you know, it started a few days before I got out the re the the Gypsy Rose life after lockup sereries and So we are navigating, filming this show about my life present day And so that adds such an element of stress to I mean, it was a wonderful show. I'm appreciative for the, you know, opportunity to go ahead and do it But it was a level of stress too because it's cameras all in your face. I mean, the very first night that I got out There's cameras in the bedroom with me and Ryan and It's freaking me out because it's like my eyes were even trying to adjust to the color because in prison everything is so beige, so, you know Gay, it's colorless pretty much and Out in the real world, there's so many vibrant colors So like I'm adjusting to see colors And the last thing I want to do is be on a camera. Well, My husband is trying to get groovy Right This is not what I want to be doing right now. Right. Right But this is This is what's happening. This is happening. Yeah. Oh my gosh. so What then happens? I mean I mean, the cameras left, so I mean, they didn't get any sort of intimate anything. We consummated our marriage that night upon release Um I mean, there was like this whole thing called the Das Fire and it was Oh I feel terrible for you even saying this, but Um Ryan was like, please whatever you do, don't embarrass me That would embarrass. So I was like, I got you. Don't worry, no matter what's like, I got you You know. So this so this is your commentary onn your first night together. sexually. Yeah and you said that. I mean I'm not going to say it was it was terrible. now I've had better, but So relatively speaking Relatively speaking. It was it was not It was mid. It was was mid It was mid as the kids say. ye So so now I have to ask this is Was that so you were how old at this point? Ah, thirty two. You're thirty two. thirty two what I find interesting is You were in your teens, you know, you I could see that you were trying to Um, you know go through puberty, like so many of us, you want to have a romantic relationship R? You want to explore sex You attempted were unsuccessful at consensual sex Was that your first time havingual consensual sex. Yes at thirty two. Yes. So that experience, what is that experience like for you It's hard because I wasn't comfortable in my own skin and I wasn't comfortable u I mean, I hadn't had a lot of therapy therapy, like one on one therapy to work on the trauma that I had experienced. So You know, unfortunately and I told Ryan this too. I'm like, I'm, you know, I'm really sorry, but I just, you know, I feel like I have not gotten to a point where I could enjoy myself because I'm too busy thinking about the past. Yes And I'm just not there yet And this this this makes sense, you know, to me King that your, you know, your ex will call him your ex, that he's going to do life in prison Kning that's your mother. is no longer here. and you played a role in her no longer being here. How do you feel leaving prison. early Leaving prison early, I mean, I couldn't I I'm gonna to be honest, I could't think of anything other than my own my own happiness at the time this fair is fair and Can we acknowledge that you are a public figure? You know, you are a celebrity I hate that word Okay, you're a public figure. I'll go a public figure. You are well known. you are well recognized. u, perhaps having one of the most recognizable childhoods of any American How do you deal with the attention? right when you get out because one thing that I was quite shocked at was How many people came to your support It felt like, you know, if you look at your social media, for example, you were were very quickly followed by millions of people I mean, how how does that M. I was not expecting it And I was not ready for it Um When family and friends said We're gonna need to protect our girl c she doesn't know what she's coming out to I was expecting hate. I was expecting You know, I was going to be hated like Hacey Anthony is hated U, But it was the opposite Um Like you said, I gained millions of followers, which my brain couldn't even wrap my head around what nine million followers on TikTok and nine million followers on Instagram, even is U, I think going to Walmart going to the grocery store, going to a ball U having people run up to you and want to take a selfie with you and things like this, none of that I was prepared for And so yes, it was Fattering But at the same time, I also had people that I have weird reactions too because it's like some people are like, I would have did exactly but you did. I'm just like Please don't I I'm not trying to be out here advocating for murder. This is not how you become famous. This is the result of what happens when Tragedy meets tragedy, meets tragedy again and again and again and the system fails. And people get hurt There's so many more stories out of Childhood abuse. that don't get talked about The only ones that we want to recognize are the ones that a lifetime series and a Netflix show, and an HBO show, and worldwide attention is thrust upon Why not not take some of that spotlight and give it to All the victims because I'm not the face of Munch hausen by proxy. I never wanted to be, never claimed to be This is my life Y'all made me this I didn't hful powerful I can see that that in particular that this is an area that now It's, you know, It's interesting. it's been given to you You didn't ask for this, but this this This platform, if you will, has been handed to you. you know And I can see that you acknowledge that U So comoming out of then prison You have this attention. but you're still married. Then you had the television show. I'm also curious though about how you begin to adjust to life. because From what I understand, this is your first time now living life In your thirties. Yeah It's your first time. walking down a street without having yourour mom Yeah or a prison guard Or a prison guard. Yeah. Yeah, this is your first time turning on a television? You just be like, I want to watch this show, you know? Your first time interacting people You know, what was that like It felt so freeing and everything was trial and error Ha birthday Um, you know, learning learearning how to cook, learning how to do this and learning how to do that. Like at the time I got out, I didn't know how to drive. Like I didn't have a driver's license. I never drove a car before So this is all stuff. I felt like I was learning how to be going through a teen year A twenties And now landing in thirties and supposed to be exactly where I'm supposed to be. and People watched me go through Um many different fails many different challenges. People have often said like tellell me to act my age. I tell them Can you give me the twenty three years that I was with my mom or the eight and a half years I was in prison and got to miss out on all this So please do give me another thirty two to catch up You know? Yes I'm making decisions on my own and trying to figure out what's right And I'm doing it in front of the world. Yes Yes So you feel the pressure? Yes. Blame y all you want of making stupid life decisions, but A teen would make m But but you feel like that there's there's nothing that I have done that feel Like someone could justify saying that Um, a bad person N in that way. But yet do do you hear that, you hear those statements. Oh yeah, I hear those statements all the time. What are they? What are those statements and who's saying them? I mean, it's just mostly online trolls. They might be usernames seven eight nine ten. But you don't know if it's bots or if it's people with actual opinions, but opinions, everybody has one And all that I have done in my life Um says out of prison is Learn who I am And like I say, I'm not perfect. but Whatever it is, whether it be I had my daughter out of wedlock I divorced my ex husband. they throw that in my face like I that's a crime And I'm like if you would realize They're much That's not the worst thing. Okay Be thankful that The little stupid shit is just All I'm doing Yes Yes, yes So you decided to divorce Ry. wasas it in order to have a relationship with Ken, you knew you were going to have one or it was the chance at having a relationship with Ken. It was the chance It was not a guaranteed thing at first. So Um I started to drop those hints to Ryan. And then one night Um it was actually on it was actually on Valentine's Day of twenty twenty four Okay. and I woke him up that day and instead of being like, I love you, honey, I woke him up telling him how I had a dream about Ken and I missed Ken and So I was always very brutally honest. I was like, I wasn't meaning to hurt his feelings, but I'm kind of like, this is where I'm at with it. Can we have a conversation about it? Y. So nothing was ever kept from him in the dark. He was not blindsided about how I felt about Ken he knew. U, And so One night I had put a note by his bed And I said, I'm so sorry You know Here's the ring back So he came home, he saw that He crumpled it up through it. of ced or whatever in the room for a little bit while I post it up in this separate bedroom And then an argument had and In this argument, he's yelling at me Anan He is standing by the bedroom door And he opened it up really quickly as I'm like, can we just have a conversation about this? and he opens it up a little too quickly and steps forward a little faster than I'm used to And it triggered me. Now Did Is he a violent person? No. Would he ever hurt me? I don't feel like he would. in that moment I felt triggered And so I call my sister And I'm like, Ryan and I are arguing like I felt like he came at me Can you please come pate me out So my sister comes pick me up. I spend a few days with her And then I go to my stepmom and dad's house. and I file for divorce Um for a family acquaintance unfortunately talk to the media and proceeded to tell TMZ that Ryan threatened me, that he was Ausive I never said Ryan was abusive I said he came at me and was in my face yelling. which he was Is he an abuser? No So I wanted to clarify that up. Like I never claimed Ryan was abusive Okay. you were only triggered. I was triggered I had not had a lot of therapy if any at that point. Okay. And so I had not dealt with certain situations, like yelling, arguments, stuff like that. Again, I had been in prison and my defense is like, okay, I'm going leave the situation. Yes. I'm if there if anything pops off that I don't like, I'm leaving. I didn't leave before, but I sure as fuck will now. Yes. So didn't you file a temporary it was temporary, but a restraining order against Ryan. That was not, it was not a restrain order in that way. Okay. so I'm My lawyer, divorce attorney handled everything U She took care of it all. I made no requests. She's like, we're gonna to do this, this, this and this. okay I didn't understand any of it. I was like, okay Whatever you feel is best is best The restraining order pertained to our finances. The restraining order basically said, you can't touch the money that's in the joint checking account without it being for things like necessities. You can't go out and buy a car So it just put up our finances. Okay. And this makes sense to me as well because I would imagine Given the volume of television shows that were out about you and the interest that there was probably a significant amount of money made. in that period of time and you were married. So now it becomes this Now it's our money. It's our it's a joint asset. Yeah So was that The main challenge with the divorce was then how do you that and unravel that. U we actually my my lawyer said that I could get fifty, you know, half and a half Okay. So we haveft and haveft it. Whatever was in the joint checking at the time We have to have Okay T half. Even though, I mean, quite honestly, it seems like the the money was generated because of you. I mean, there was probably only about forty thousand that was in that account at the time. Okay. because The the show money came in like so many months It didn't come in one chunk Okay, okay. So by the time that All of the show money came in. I had already moved banks had my own bank Okay fair enough So then you two split The chance of me K getting back together, I wasn't sure. it wasn't a for sure thing I wanted to at least see him We hadn't seen each other in four and a half five years So I wanted to see A I Am I crazy or do, you know, do we still have this like Yes So he came to visit me at my parents' house. comes We meet up, we decide we're going to get a hotel in New Orleans and we're going go do an airport tour. We're gonna to go do a, you know wholeo New Orleans day trip. Yes And B the level when I tell you, I don't know how to ever explain So love and happiness that I felt I hope that everybody in the world gets to experience that feeling of happiness and just in love. ever It was amazing. And I knew I just knew I'm like This. I'm in love This is it and I know what I have to do. Yes. And then you said then a month late. So then you're together then for a month. And then a month after that I had got pregnant. We had got we had God Back together Lythia we had had a weekend of having that New Orleans weekend. had a great time He comes back Um, A month later And that's when I got pregnant, And then I find out a month later that I was bright. Yeah I like to show you a photo. Okay Ready Tbooy Okay A you ready for this? Yeah What is happening In this photo, who are you with Yeah. So this is the day that my daughter was born Mm So this is Ken No right? This photo was taken. One year After I got out Really? She was born on december twenty eighth twenty twenty four Okay I got out It' decemember twenty eighth of twenty three You could not have planned that. I mean, that is incredible. I did not know that it was one year. One year. To the date. Y. So this is your purpose. This is my purpose, to be a mommmy I think it is. I mean I think it's, um, It's healing f course when I knew when I found out I was pregnant A lot of people were like, you know, how do you feel becoming a mom, not having a great mom yourself And of course, it's like I can I can say this and that in an interview thinking, okay, well, maybe this is how I might feel But it wasn't until I had had her, she was two weeks old was rocking the recliner And I looked at her. And there was just something that hit me. It felll L I was going through trauma all over again by thinking to myself How kid a parent ever hurt? cause any harm to their child or any child And I just started to cry and I held her I about this thear He her clothes and I was like so much and Mommy's never gonna let anything happen to you ugging a baby me I just about like I wanted Its a lover Like I wasn't. And don't wanted to give her everything. that I wasn't and it just hurt and it felt good at the same time. I'm sorry I tell you what never have to apologize. for allowing us all you know, to see you um, in your emotion That's all you wanted That's all you wanted as a little girl was To feel loved was to feel safe And Isn't it so interesting what life gives you and now here You're in a moment where You're going you didn't receive it, but you're going to be able to give it And it also gives like my dad a second chance too because you know, my dad didn't get a chance to be around in my life as much as he wanted And so now watching Dad o Be a part of her life too is also very healing too. Yes Yes Look at that, that relationship with your father now Yeah. when you Gypsy, think about the future you know, the next chapter, right? What are your dreams Um You know, there's there's my professional life and then there's my personal life. and my personal life I want to have another child Mm et married, you know, buy a house. and then in their professional space, I personally am starting my own podcast.. And so this podcast is going to be conversations, real conversations like this that you're having with me um about people who have gone through trauma, but also have been defined by the worst moments in their life And it's a redemption of how do they get from there to where they want to be And it's not just celebrities. We're talking average people We're talking celebrities we're talking anybody because Everybody has had trauma, everybody has had something happen to them And no trauma is greater than anyone else's trauma. Tuma' traum And it is so therapeutic to talk about it with someone, especially when that someone has gone through trauma themselves. Yes Yes I'm with you. I think more conversation needs to be had so that we can normalize the fact that Trauma is an experience that we all go through And to your point is is that and then you can come out on the other side. Exactly. R you can heal heal from. and I think given the platform that that's been thrusted upon. That's probably one of the best ways to use it. Yeah the best bases. Yeah. There is something I like to end on. There's a question that everyone gets, but before that, I have one last that I want to show youid for this. Yeah. All right Get ready H it comes. All right. So now This is my favorite photo of the entire batch. Okay I want you to tell me Wh's in this photo? Okay And then I have a question for you about this photo. Ready A, that's me. Look L at you. That's me. Yes Do you know roughly how old you are in this? Oh goodness. Mbe maybe two. Yes. So this is young you This is a very, very young you. All right. This is You in what I'm sure you would consider to be good times Okay So what I'd love for you to do is tell me what you would like tell I would tell her that He's loved life is gonna be hard. is gonna be really hard, but Do not give up becausecause your daddy loves you D dady loves you And so does it, Christie and your brother and your sister They love you very much And someday A little girl is gonna love you Everything you wanted in life going happen for you trick enough to be strong Very, very strong You know what? She was She was Did't're making me cry? You know, it what I love what I have loved it and I'll hold ont to that. I love I think this's such a beautiful photo I love it U very stylish by the way. Those overalls overalls. You know, I wear overalls to this to this day. Re? Yeah. Ive actually, I think I have your entire outfit. Oh my goodness I think I have that Um, What I have, I think appreciated most from you in this conversation is I feel like There's been a sense of vulnerability. Bness and light Right to you in this conversation. I've just that I've loved Right your your level of reflection will stay with me. This is going to be this is hands down. It's one of the most memorable conversations that I've had been doing this this podcast for the last two years you've exceeded my expectation in terms of You were your transparency in in the story You know and I wish you Oh Oh. of the most amazing Amazing things at this life can can can can give you Yeah. And most importantly is I wish you the ability to give yourself beyond grace but forgiveness I'll work on it. Yes There is a Final question that everyone gets And that question is this Gypsy you've had someome phenomenal conversations in your life. Yes When you think about the most memorable conversation Who was it with? And what did you learn? Would it be too cheesy to say you It wouldn't be Um Okay, so this has to be a really good conversation in all the times that I have done interviews I have never had anyone really listen to me. Um until now and gave me the freedom to share whatever I wanted to Um So thank you for that You are welcome You're welcome. I wish you the best in your advocacy work U There are millions of people who adore you Right? U and now having met you, I understand why You're gonna have to come on my podcast. Oh yeah.'m there. We can unpack my trauma. Yeah. I'm from New York. I have a lot of drama.. We look forward to. we gonna talk? We do need to talk Never I've never had a conversation like that ever And I think this conversation is going to sururprise quite a large number of people constant theme to me is desesire for love It just goes to show how This is a core Human need. And you see the consequence of that This is the reason why healing from trauma is so important because you can see What happens if you go through trauma, you see and behave differently Mental health needs to be paramount in terms of our responsibility um, as family members, friends colloeagues, mental health is everything What's up good people? If you've made it this far, let me tell you, I appreciate you. You are truly part of this community and you like long episodes. But quite honestly, this doesn't go unnoticed. Now if you haven't already, I want you to hit subscribe. It's right here And if you've really enjoyed this conversation, I know Love this one