Bruno Sammartino and Final Thoughts

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Take the guesswork out of buying tickets concerts, sports, comedy, and more with game time Download the Gameime app and create an account for twenty dollars off your first purchase. Terms apply Hello everybody. Welcome to What do you Wan to Tal about A Fanatics and WWE original production. V special day today because we are on Hallllowed ground. We are at the world's most famous arena. very special place for all of entertainment, particularly of course, sports entertainment, pro wrestling. and I have an incredibly unique and special special guest who never just randomly says yes to podcast. In fact, I don't think he's done one in many years. This again is a very special. Lifelong Nicks fan, creator of the hit series, Billions and a wrestling fan, which I'm about to find all about. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome what do you want to talk about, Brian Copliman Oh guys. I'm thrilled to be here, man. This is great. I just can't wait You're thinking about it all week This u I'll give people a little, you know, pull the curtain back a bit. This happen uniquely whereas there's some connective tissue between myself and you and that being Mr. Paul Hayman I love Paul. mister Paul Heayman. and I see you are drinking like myself. ourur friends at Wheelley American Moda. This is a American mule Cheers to you Brian. Cheers, man, I hear you're drinking it on the podcast. now I'm excited to have We are here we're at Mason Square Garden. This is a Arena you are very familiar M Walk me through what's the first memory for you, this arena? and pro wrestling Well, you know, you bring up the arena and you'll understand The second you ask, what's your first memory? It's not a wrestling memory. It's being four years old and my pop s bringing me to the garden to see the next, and that's how the connection to the garden fs to happen And but it does have to do with showmanship and a lot of wrestling stuff because Earl the Parl Monroe, who used to play for the Baltimore Bullets before he came to the Kicks There was a guy who would follow him around who was like a manager, like his guy called Dancing Harris And Dancing Harry would follow this guy around and he was dressed in robes and he would put a hex on the other team. He was like the Grand wizard. Oh my God. something like that. But he was doing it in basketball because cursing people. Bask Oh, yeah, he would curursing like people like Danhausen today. And cur it was Yeah it was the , there wass a lot of cararney in all pro sports, right Back then, these guys were barnstorming only twenty years before that. So my the garden's a haallllowed place for me. but I've been a wrestling fan since I was probably six years old or seven years old and Back then before the sports entertainment era If you were under thirteen or thirteen and under, you couldn't get in We grew up I grew up in an hour in twenty minutes away from the garden. soteen for these shows, you couldn't get You couldn't get in to see wrestling. Okay. And my thirteenth birthday, I convinced my pop to take me and my friends to see Bruno wrestle here And we got turned away. So and it was I got to say maybe top ten disappointments of my life. Sure sure. Coming all the way here. I had posters of wrestlers covered mine. likeike the rec room in ar like really, wasn't even a rec room, it was just a basement. And I was such a fan and I got turned away. And it was great because you got to take your bruises. I mean, you know what I mean? You got to lose before you get a chance to win. So to do this today and to be sitting here with you means a lot. I'm curious. You're thirteen, your birthday, you get turned away at the garden I got to ask, how did we turn that around How did what did you do It ex day What was the make especially as your you said your dad took you? It was my dad, me and three friends. Okay. Oh, so dad, did he have to kick into overdrive? Was it we he our hands up? What happened? I do know he a bribe was attempted Oh that And the bribe didn't What shocking thing things was the bribe didn't work. And which I can't understand. and I'll say like your dad, mine He couldn't necessarily he wasn't a cheap man. You know what I mean? He would have done anything. So He tried. and I'm sure he tried to like actually slide the guy five tw s or something. And we were just turned away scornfully Benny Hanna is the answ Okay, Benny Han is a good. I'm not mad at that. hestly three hundred and sixty four fucking days a year, Benny Hota would have been great But it was that day. But that day it sucked. Come on. Yeah when they when they did the fire and everything, it's not the same as seeing Bruno. you want to see Bruno against Ivan Kolof and instead you' staring at some shrimp with sesame on it. It's not really I mean, it doesn't really hold a candle. Ashirly Temple is not the same thing as trying to steal a sip off of someone's beer at the garden. When you're watching Bruis or Brody body slam something. The u I'm so It has to make you though when you think of your dad doing that There's I think of a story, for example, my big Christmas growing up I wanted a Nintendo sixty four. and tenzo sixty four was the turbo manan that year. It was impossible to get I told my mom I wanted Nintendo sixty four I was at the age where she was very honest with me. I don't think We can do that. I don't I might have said some things that made it seem like, hey, there's magic here. There's got to be there. I wanted Nintendo sixty four really put her in a position in that's rough difficult Christmas morning, I opened up in Nintendo sixty four took it upstairs put Mario in. And it just stopped on the screen where it just says, Is it me? And it stopped there and it froze and I started it over Its a mee. And I realize My mom in her attempt to get this had bought a console locked region specific Japanese Nintendo sixty four. Bye. I went downstairs and told her It's the greatest gift I've ever got because She tried, you know, like so hard. So I'm Dad taking you to the garden. It gets me E Rving Sry though You're a lifelong fucking baby face. Oh no, I mean that is incredible, right That is the most Cody Rhodes story. It's disgusting all. The side part of that story the non baby face part was Dusty then went to where she bought it and told me to wait in the car. I love it And I watched through the glass and there was a lot of This He came out with an Nintendo sixty four box and every game that came out. And he just never told me what was said What took place and whatever he did, But I ended up with it. but I was I couldn't after that, I was like, He Yeah, that's, you know, the parents, they try so hard. but again, you're thirteen, Benny Hanah happens. When did you get your first play I love that your dad did that because what is Oh yeah, I will say like I did see my father pull off that kind of move a lot. like Yeah that I was that's what was shocking. It didn't work at the at the garden. Yeah Not many people would actually then go back there and convince someone to give you the right, you know, the Nintendo sixty four that you didn't even pay for because obviously she got a deal on it. What did it make you for real? like How did that land with you going forward? meaning About resourcefulness, about like, did you consider, oh, he's just a magical person who could do that I just I think as a parent These are tough questions to answer. but I think as a parent What I learned from him was Ultimate important thing. in terms of his legacy was his children. And even at a young age, I got the sense that At a young age I got the sense that my dad had been. Beat up chewed up, spit out, shine back up, chewed up, spit by the wrestling business.. I got that sense because when I'm young, he's not wrestling on top. I know. He's executive producer, then he's not. He's booker, then he's not. He's friends with everybody then he's not. We're backstaged then the next you know, we're not allowed. I was so I got the sense he'd really been through it. And with moves like that It was just he set a standard. He set a standard as a dad that is going to be incredibly hard to follow Yeah, I mean, it's amazing in the way that you've got that version of him that was focused and attentive in that way Well, the thing is he wasn't with The first two kids. I know. Yeah. Kristin and Dustin, they are relationship so uniquely different because he was gone. He was road wararrior. He was I wanted to be NWA champ. He want all those things and That's the life he lived. And then I think when he got to me, he had one shot You know, like im andem style, one shot, one opportunity. He got to me knew like I just have to do everything right for him and again, he extremely babied me and he definitely he got that with me. but it's so funny because some of the guys in this room actually were part of this. His last interview he did, we didn't know he was going to pass away three days later, right His last interview he did he they asked him. they go, what do you want? you know, like to be remembered as they just said a good father I mean, that's it, right It' better for you to have and this is Obviously not anywhere near I just want to say one thing about op. You've turned this later you on me my Yeahah, that's but I loveving having you on the mic. It's great. I'll talk so you can ask me anything you want. but one more thing I do want to say about you and your pop which is I came up in the magazine er the Wreling magazine era. You know, And I would read these magazines from when I was like six, seven, eight years old, I was fascinated by the magazine I would make my mom take me two different stores or three that might have them and I would had to get all of them and I wouldn't subscribe. I loveved the ritual. They wouldn't let me sucribe but I lo going to the store and getting those magazines and then reading them The thing is the way those writers made up their stories and built up those wrestlers.. And so someday I really want to make a documentary about this. Then I would go visit a family member somewhere that is before for people who were listening and don't know, you know, wrestling wasn't national. So NWA wrestlers wrestled in certain territory, AWA wrestlers wrestled in certainerritory, but inevitably because of how these people were built up. When you saw them, You were slightly disappointed almost at the time. Of course. You know, when you saw Abdullulah the Butcher on the cover of a magazine bleeding, he seemed like the scariest guy in the world. And when you saw him, it was a little goofy. Yeah. Your father was the only one who not only lived up to it but transcended it. Oh no. I would see your dad and I would watch him on the stick. Be there was no YouTube. there was no internet. You had to go and put the ears on a television and get it on UHF to try to find a Dusty Rhodes match. And u He was everything that you'd hoped he'd be when you would read about him in the magazines. Bruno will always be as a kid growing up here, you know, my favorite wrestler, but right behind him always was dusty because he was even better than how they wrote about That's why To me when he came here and they didn't put the belt on him, I always thought it was a crying shamee. speaking up, where's the bell? fire in I think that's so crazy That, you know, that story of him not winning the belt in nineteen you know, seventy eight. with Superstar and everything and it's this one. that's this WW Championship. And then the beauty of being able to come in and do it myself. You got you got to get hold of. Oh yeah got to get hold. Yeah, that's great, man Oh this is and your your lineage in terms of you being a Bruno guy. Yeah. know, this is unbelievable his DNA is in that In a sense the WW, the WWW champhip what it would become. Yeah, Buddy Rogers to Bruno. That's right. Ivan Kolo the original nature you know the full. I can give you the whole run. Yeah. I could give you the run up to a certain. So where Ivan Koloff, who's next? After Ivan Kolo Pedro Morales right That's right after Pedro, I think Stan Stasiac For seven days or something like that. I know an Aesthasiac thank you sir always got the rap of being the transition because he got you back to he gets you back to Bruno. Yes, got you back. And then Bruno to superstar Billy Grham with his foot on the rope, which killed me on the cover of the magazines. and and then to Bob Baklin And then the sheig, right? I think that's the run. So two questions because and I'll fact check. Did you just do it in real time? That is the run too. Did I get the run right? See, it's not as buse getting the run right. Oh I was just gonna was that run was going to be right no matter what. No, No, totally. No we would have fixed it. But the thing is it's really easy to do that in the internet era. That's the thing the internet hass taken away being, you know, being able to name all the bass players in heavy metal bands from the new wave of British heavy metal No one cares you could just look it up But I have had that WW thing memorized my whole life. That's a very special run. You mentioned, I want to ask you two questions. just following up on what you said. You said magazines. This is the Bill A er of of our industry. What shout out to Bill He's a wild one but what magazine was your main magazine? PWI I like the wrestler. Wrestler. Yeah Pro wrestling illustrated the wrestler and inside wrestling. Th three were You know, you had to get. Yeah. You know, it got a little weird when the apartment house wrestling started becoming a big part in it. It was a big part of the magazines. Yeah. And for those who don't know what that is, we do have the internet to look it up. Yeah. ye. Oh yeah, there are like sites dedicated to that And it's funny because like at a certain age, I definitely didn't want that. And then at another age it was like, well, this is okay You know? Yeah, re. But um Yeahan, I really loved the writing. It's funny because even as a kid, and I think it's one of the great things about the Kf Baru is There was no You know, no one understood that there was something as someone who was smarted up, right orr someone who was a mark. These weren't terms really that kids watching wrestling knew If you were like really interested in this stuff and you'd read these magazines and then you'd watch the show the shows you would start to put together that this isn't exactly what you're you know, even at a young age And part of the fun of it was thinking about all of that stuff. You know, I mean, for me, the What you guys have brought it back to now has reintroduced all the best elements of that folded into this whole sports entertainment era. Amazing. Well, look at the pro You know, the the promo that Heayman did on you when he talked about usie. Go in into Rumy thirty nine. Yeah. Yes, okay, yeah was, I think In the modern era, the best best most emotional and incredible moment because he brought he used so much Real information. Yeah That very legacy you were just talking about. genuine fondness for you, his place in your life. Sure. All the stuff the audience brings in. Yeah. And as a professional storyteller Wing it I could watch it both like as someone who crafts stories and respected But I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't emotionally moved by it. It worked. It worked on me And I know if it worked on me, it worked on everybody. and it's why when you didn't win It was it guaranteed another year of engagement, you know, and We were my partner, the guy I make everything with We were deep in making the show billions at the time and I wasn't always watching Wrestling. You know you go if you're lifelong fan there are period of time you're watching closely. There are periods of time you're following it, but you're not watching as closely. You know what's going on. Dance Soer and I always talk about it as a lifelong wrestling. Everyone always mentions Dany, who was on the show is a great comedian and a lifelong wrestling fanatic but two things that brought me back. First, Becky Lynch brought me back to wrestling when she really started making her run as the man I thought it was so awesome that there was a woman doing this. And I remember getting my wife, Amy, we would watch I loved watching that run and ended up becoming friends with Becky. She came on the show. and the other thing that brought me all the way back was your run, man, those two years. I would watch all the time. I would follow it because The fact that your pop didn't get it. Yeah and that they that extra year after you left. It was great because it worked as a business story. it worked as a life story, it worked as a wrestling story. and it's what you all do so well. It's what I admire so much about what all you Big news, WWE and sports fans, the world's number one sports fan festival, Fanatics Fest, is making its return to New York City. Fanatics is bringing you closer to the league, teams, superstars, and athletes you love across four action pack days in July. Meet your favorite WWE superstars, get your hands on exclusive merch and interact with the biggest names in sports Tickets are on sale now and fans of the podcast can use code Cody Tin at checkout for ten percent discount. Head to fanaticsfest d. com to get your tickets today. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using Walthfront. Ching There's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. cllients like Angela earn up to four point two percent API on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account Get started at wealth frront.ot com C clients paid one thousand dollars for their testimonial creating a conflict of interest outcesary. point three percent theyAPI as of january thirtieth, twenty six is repentative variable andned funds sw to program bank. point six five percent new clients whoose for three months on up to one hundred fifty thousand dollars. Directposit one thousand dollars a month andund invest account for a point five percent increase cash account offered Wealthront broerage LLC member Finer IPC not a Granger knows, when you're a procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Light's about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, click Granger. com or just stop by Granger. For the ones who get it done. You mentioned Becky. I said this I crashed an interview of hers this morning. How cool. We were overdoing just different radio for just WrestleMania coming up and I saw her. so I came and crashed it. We'll find out if she was mad about that later or not She seemed cool. But somebody asked me to describe her. Yeah One of the most Fraudulent terms, you'll hear Not so much internally here, but you'll see some of the more people who cover us, they'll talk about the word organic And uh Almost everything in wrestling isn't organic and shouldn't be because we're writing this narrative. shouldn't be or like we're writing this The man run probablyably the best example of an organic run that when Anytime I had when I was doing my executive gig or when I'm at the nightmare factory, whatever it may be when a girl asks me what she can do to be the best in the women's division I always tell them, don't be the best in the women's division. Don't be the best in the men's division Just be the best. Be the best in the world. Be the in the case of Becky, be the man. whatever it is, like be the best because that brings it up naturally That was what was so great about that room. when she headlined manania It was like That woman is right now B. professional wrestler in the world. Yeah. It felt like that. It felt galvanizing, it felt like and not for not for reasons that were separate, not because the culture she just was because like you're saying tapped into that thing where who she was inside was who she was outside on that run. And it was an incredible thing it was really an incredible thing to see I think a hard a hard realization for me and a question I kind of have to ask myself at the end of the day You're talking about this promo And this is me and mister Heayman going into Rusmania thirty nine talking about my dad going to work for ECW. correct that? And talking when he says that he trained Roman, but he didn't train Right, rightight. So One of the things that I don't know if it is a burden or if it is a huge advantage, a huge luxury, or if it's both, a privilege and a curse. It could be both Is my character upon returning? has been me and When you're that close to it I have to kind of remind myself that when we put our work up When the cameras are on and we're out there. It's no longer Really me, right But it is And this information is And I think the thing about that interview that I wanted to do was I wanted the world to know that story And I wanted to connect to Mr. Hayman in a way that we really could never be untethered in and and It's difficult because sometimes, you know, you were so complimentary of it as a promo I remember people would talk to me about a Hall of Fame speech I did for my dad and I don't know how to respond because That's easy That's an easy That's an easy thing to connect to. Oh, of course, rightight That saying you becoming emotional Like that's it's that's just, that's just Easy And I it's just it's something that at the end of the day. I have to ask myself. But didn't you you had to allow yourself. Oh yeah, to have an open experience Meaning you had to allow yourself. That's part of the craft of becoming worthy of wearing the belt, right is being willing to really bleed But like bleed emotion emotionally no You can't actually there's a lot of stuff you could craft and fake Yeah all day yeah That's a moment though by definition Because it's not like those words were said many times. You mentioned like emotionally I remember I went to LA you know, after high school because I thought I wanted to become an actor. I really just thought I wasn't big enough physically I'm a big boy to become a pro wrestler. And Howard Fine was my coach out there. And I remember him telling me. he was saying he's like, if you really want to know ticket For you as young men and women who want to get into this He was saying, you just have to be emotionally available You have to be available I think one of the lessons I learned upon coming back here was That's going to be very difficult But I want to be that every night And if it's almost counter intuitive are if it almost juxtaposes against what they think a baby face should be. It will work because it's real because it's authentic and I'm allowing it. become part of this story. It's so good that it took the extra year because because it allowed that to really saturate, even though I'm sure being inside it And even knowing there were handshakes and agreements and this was happening You know, everyone was sure that someone was, you know, uncene as run, that someone else was coming back to be part likeike you there could be a lot of plans that change and it could have changed. Oh yeah, I am, I mean, as this room knows I'm the King of Plans change. Right? And so but you had to sort of hold the faith. and that meant that the audience had to hold the faith and stay with it even though people were sure. And that's why when Taker comes into the ring It's such a big moment because he was in there for all of us, right? Sure. He was in there for everybody who loved Dusty. He was in there for everybody who was rooting for you. Yeah. He was in there for everybody who wanted one good thing to happen in the world that day. Yeah And so when he comes in there that it was so amazing because we wanted a hand to come from somewhere And fucking give this kid the shot I I tried to after thirty nine, the WrestleMania happenens so far LA I tell people this a lot, but I tried to look at as many people as I could And what I was trying to convey was s to be o And and I think now I'm so happy that I didn't lie to him Right? Because you said hold the faith Hold the faith is hard. Yes it is. Hold the faith, especially in my case, gets shaken greatreat bit and I just thought I just as the one thing pro wrestling good guy, pro wrestling baby face, the one thing you can't do is lied to them can't lie to them. Say more about that. What do you mean? D you, if I go out knowing, right say I'm well aware of a finish three months from now. Yes. But I have to go out and tell those people I am going to beat this guy without a shadow of doubt. I guarantee it. and I have to look them in the eye And even in that moment, if I know otherwise still believe I'm not lying to them, right? Like I It's a it is a perpetual case of holding the faith It's a perpetual case of Hey Tonight going to be your night. Im going I'm going to beat this guy. I'm making eye contact with you and I got you buddy. or if I'm laying there in a Pool of my own blood. the same look and hey 's going to be okay. Right. I owe it to you. It's going to be okay. Yeah, you're going lead you're going to lead everybody out of this. Right. somehow. And I think all the greats Fr a wrestling psychology standoint, we're here in the garden All the greats had a way of doing that. It's a sales business in a way. It's a story business. it's a sales business But the one thing that doesn't work is bad salesmen you you won't last long. Yeah, the the best heels do it in the reverse and the one the people who are really great at that You I want to ask because you mentioned the magazines and you mentioned the bunny ears on the TV Yeah and territory wrestling. Yes more your more your time, more your speed Well it was WWW Yeah Yeah. I think for me up until like MT I really the MTV thing kind of killed it for me a little bit. Okay, ye yeah. Did it kill it because so many people were now jumping into your world? there was nothing dangerous about wrestling for a while. Ah, gotcha. And the whole point was the carney like the whole point was the Carney aspect. the whole point was It was something that was forbidden and and strange. It was really Because when something's a subculture and like a micro culture and a subculture It's really yours if you're a fan. Yeah. And you understand the codes and you understand what people are saying. you know, Um, if you're a kid And you are following the magazines when tip okay someone's going to come into the territory and then they would get that first match against, Johny Rodds or something. they'd and they were sted and they would, you know, win And you would kind of track that. Or if you were a kid and you loved Billy Whitewolf for Chief Jay Strongbo and suddenly they're fighting the executioners and you kind of think Killer Kwasski is one of the executioners and they're finally going to get their belt back and they pin them. And then a third execution is hiding under the ring and comes out, it Yes, you're, you know, you're throwing things at the little black and white television in the basement You're enraged You also love the show that was put on for you and that you and this small group of people care about so much. Your outrage is so incredibly big Got on MTV and on NBC on those, you know, Saturday nights. Yeah It just stopped being cool for a minute and it became everybody's thing. and those people didn't have to under they didn't have to put in the time. Yeah. They didn't have to learn about who those people were. They didn't have to know. who's Rick Flair and. who'sick B Wingle Wh who's hardlyy R,?'s Try Funk,'s Doryy F? They didn't have Learn that stuff, it was given to them H We all had to like earn it. You had to like stay up late and convach your parents to not watch the TV so you could watch the TV. You had to do a lot to be a wrestling fan. Yeah. And then it was just easy then As wrestling does, it And I had my Amy and I had our first kid Yeah. and he we started watching wrestling. Wrestling brings you back as people say. in it It brings you back and it brings you back again and it brings you back again. you know, um, And as I say, various things brought me back Beacky brought me back and your story brought me back again, you know, again. You were talking about you said Chief Jay, right? Yeah. So Joe, right? Was Joe Scarpa? Yeah. Um I wish more people knew this, but today If you and I arerestling in the ring and you hit me And I decide no, no more And I start hulking up. Right? And I start moving. He hit me again. Nope, not again. and I start I wish people knew today that was very common amongst territory eighties baby the idea that nah, it's not a not sell. It's a'm I'm pretending not to be heard Right. It hurts actually but I did not you feel it. But I'm not letting you know that when as much as Hogan absolutely took over it all But when he created it as the Hulkup, It's now made it so that this thing is a hulk up which is amazing. A credit to him for creating, but I wish people knew that used to be every top baby face at a certain point, whether it was Chief S Jard of course theard are my old man when s nope, we're done. that was your way. and it's different. Japanese wrestling, a lot of people talk about how there's not selling and they don't realize no They're selling that they're not hurt That's what they're they're selling. I'm good I'm good and then you find out they're not. It's like when you go to the bar and you get drunk, you're not acting more drunk. right tryrying to act sober. That's That's that's that style and as so much of it got taken away because there was one place for it. MTV, like you said, rock and wrestling, then w WrestleMania, which were We're right here now and everything it would become. I wish more people knew that. I'll ask you this because you're You're this area. What territory? I mean you're closest to WWW which is a form, you know, formmerly capital wrestling. Yeah yeah. DC, New York. But was there a territory you wish you were close to or you didn't get when you saw magazine Yeahah I mean, to see your dad and Rick Flair. I mean, that's what Yeah. And Erie Ladd, you know, we' seernie Ladd a lot, but then he would leave. He was my favorite bigig cat. The big cat was Yeah Like that's a guy, I think, not enough people really know about How gry it was because the footage isn't that great I think he and your dad on the stick kind of influenced each other in a certain way. Culturally, they had a similar approach Thunderball Patterson too. Yeah I don't I don't know his like his veryy similar And again, there's not enough footage. Right's not there's not the magic you're talking about Ray Stevens in Sant Oh sure. Yes. It's hard to find. It's really hard to find the footage. And like at the time, Ernie Lad being six nine and next football player and the thing on his thumb, the foreign object He was genuinely You were scared of him, right? You were genuinely believed that guy could do anything. R in a way that later that wasn't the case, but what's so cool about wrestling in this era is that everybody plays with and I think you had a credit punk with it some like what he did that, you know, when when Yeah we're a punk friendly show. When he really brought that thing into the world though and it allowed all the eras to kind of collapse back and became the freak showhow again. I think that's the thing It's the one thing that I think is hard to put back in is the ten and one, the freak showow element that was really a part of it up until rock and wrestling I have to ask you because this is such a unique perspective you have Yeah on what we do and storytelling your outlook when you're when you're breaking down an episode, when you're writing something, when you're starting it all looking at how you just met one. he just walked by in the hall and I think he was nervous or terrified about whatever're going to do tonight. That being Ryan Ward of course helps incredibly with both Monday night Rll and SmackDown now. So his workload is intense. Looking at what we do wrestling wise, if you were to step into the writers's room for a day at WWE at HQ Is there anything that you would break and change and say no more And is there something you would want to see more of? You know, I'll tell you, I don't have an ego that tells me that I could do another writer's job better than they can do especially in a venue that I'm not expert in. I am a Professional wrestling expert fan And I've thought about what you all are able to do. And I love watching Unreal. I don't watch ity TV, but I've watched every episode onre You likeike Unreal. I love it. I've watched every episode. Thank you for liking Unreal. And a lot of people watch it and say they don't like it Yeah, I mean, I can love it. I love it and I'll be watching it as long as you guys make it. Yeah. And I love the idea that it presents itself as a shoot. And everybody's still working. And it's an amazing thing to see that and watch it Yeah. That's why I don't get mad at it by the way. They're like, Ohh, you're peeling a curtain back. I mean, come on. there's sixteen curtains. Yeah. There's so many layers a curtain in the whole one curtain. and that's why I kind of, you know yourere you're just working more. Youre do the match is just still on. Of course, you know, you're never that's the thing. you're if you guys are It's this is the amazing thing about the era that we're in is if if if you guys are talking, you're working And but we can forget it. Like I can forget that and I can you know Believe it And u, So I would love to, I mean, I've been at, you know, I'd love to go spend a day or two in the writer's room But like I read Brian Gewartz's book and I know Brian a little bit and it's a different era, of course. but I read the book and understood what he was doing, but I think these disciplines I mean, it is like if somebody was doing wrestling in Japan There is an adjustment period to come here. Sure. There's an adjustment period in any of these disciplines, so going from movies to television, which is what I've done or going writing for different purpose, they're different beasts. And so sure, I can think Oh, I know what I'd do But you got to put a show on Monday night, you got to put a show on Thursday night, you gott to set up the live event, you got to set up the house show, even though not nearly as many. You got You gott to set up all sorts of things And, and every time I think, oh, you know hitting a referee out of the ring in a false cate I've seen it too many times until I see it the next time and it works on me and it gets me back. Sure. Okaykay. And then it's like, you know what? do they got me. Yeah. And I think it's really hard. I think it's just really hard. to I think it's very hard job to be A writer and I think that Paul and the guys both Pauls and the guys Do it great. And I think maybe the best thing about uh, unreal is how it is truly, I think the most shoute element of it is how uncomfortable it makes Hyman I think I love the. I think it turn So uncomfortable. Like he didn' when I used to do a podcast my own pod, Paul and I did like a two and a half hour pod and it was like one of the first, maybe the first time he ever really, truly dropped the character. And it was so hard to get him to do it and so rewarding when he really spoke honestly about his childhood and now he's more comfortable doing it That's way easier than getting him to really let you see people making script decisions. I can feel how uncomfortable it makes him Yeah because he's a carney at heart Well too, he u I think he's conceded to the idea that, oh, yeah, these are good ideas And this is a good grid and this is a good map. But the magic now and I don't think he'd be offended to me telling you is he sits up in Gorilla cororner of Gorilla He looks at what's on paper And he adds legitimate magic to it I just spoke to somebody they said, let's let's let's put this together first Then go there. love it. Th go there. Let's bring him ours and then go there because if we go there first We're we're not we're not even challenging oursel as artists. He's the cheat code. And I need the cheat code some night. Okay, that's a really important. So when I wrote you that note, it was because I thought you were episode with Cena was like an incredible, I would tell anyone who wanted to break into any part of show business, almost any business to listen to that because John really chose your show to lay out his entire philosophy He also at like eight in the morning Yeah with a live round And that Christmas suit that David Allen made him, that was so nice And he said, I want you to have my first words after retirement. It didn't work at all and somehow he made it work I thought, man, you just did you don't have to do this. We could have it's wrestling. right W to do it the week before Of course. Nope No eight AM and it But it was so great because he if you listen closely to it gave you a roadmap be successful at show business. How hard you have to work How hard you have to be willing to iterate, look at what the data, change and what you just said I just want to translate it for one second is because people all the time want to know, oh, can I get notes on this idea that I have or this thing? And what you said is Make it as good as you can by yourself first. Keep going You know it's not good enough yet everythingvery that you can see to make something better And then if you have the opportunity to go to someone like Paul Hayman or an expert then get them to help you raise it to one more level. Sure. But I think people now because everything is so available in a way, you can access people. write the note too fast, send the script into somebody too fast, try to get the audition too fast. say they should make it up from developmental to the It's like Do all the work you can You will be rereckking that and then try to fight your way to the next level. So you're like, yeah, let's get our story together. not have Hayman work on the thing not yet and tell us the stuff we'll figure out in the next ten minutes. Yeah Give him the best we can do and then let him elevate it. Absolutely. Ands there's kind of three paths and like branching paths Mr. Heayman might give it a hm Oh I saw this scene once And this is similar and the stakes and What if you said something like that he'll look at it from the the way my dad did. We're making movies, kid We're making movies, kid. That was always that we're making movies thenen if you take it the other way, say you can't get that You got Michael PSAs down the hall. PS is going to take it from the perspective of Where does that leave us in a week? And then don't you want to get here And that's going to be even better. He's taking from the perspective of the roadmap a little bit more versus that moment in time And then if you take it the other way, you take it to Bruce Pritchard, right? then Bruce is going to speak to you from the perspective of Paul Bosch es and he's got his own the flavors here are so wild that like I said, it's a cheat code which some nights you need If you're the schedule can be what it is Some nights just hey, I've told Kirschenbaum, one of our writers, there have been one night where I said write it all down. I'll say it Write it all down. Most of the time, this is my story. Its my character. I want to I want to I want to get it as good as I can and then you guys fix it up, filter it, produce it for me. One of the things I love about WWB is Taking talented people, but then producing them ucing them and funneling. and right now Hunter has a different style funnel. triple H that being than than than Vince had than any other bookers He has a different style. That's really fun If you're a player for him to go Hey, I want to be your main guy I want to be one but this is my what about this? tryry it and to try his sandbox to try and collab and match that idea. Um Yeah Yeah, well, everyone, actors need an actor, not that you guys aren't actor. you're actors plus athletes plus storytellers But you need someone to look at it And I'll tell you, well, this is what it's saying And it could say something slightly different. And how would you say it slightly differently? It's part of the magic of whole thing. You mentioned the what do you want to talk about? againg, thank you the Wheatlely American vodka. You mentioned the one with John Cena I honestly, I'm gonna to be honest John has made it a little difficult though, because if you work with anyone in the Hollywood side of things who's like, ye I worked with John Oh. Okay, so I'll be first on set by forty minutes I'll have more improv ready. I'll be last the like he is such an insane hard worker. And I believe I saw this firsthand because we're on an episode of the Bear together. Yeah. We're both on the on the same episode. gosh. Yeah. And so I was I walked on and I had just heard that morning that John was doing that part and being or it was, you know, I love being on that show. It's an incredible thing. There he and I were sitting a little at a little table before that scene started. and yet, he was so prepared and so ready to go and had so many ideas and everyone loved him And you're standing next to him, you don't even feel like a person compared to him. He's like, you know, you're looking at this guy who's smarter than everybody and bigger and works harder and it probably already you know, lifted that morning He's it'ss it's a bit of a problem It's a bit yeah. I'm saying, hey, there's a few of us who are ready. always with his channel. So why does he have to be so fucking polite I mean, he's so fucking polite to people. I so the politeness I mean, all of it is the of evolution from the Qie spot here, like his evolution is so unique to follow and watch I like that I have a little bit of an inside to him before He was fully I guess matured And now That little bit I have is kind of the only way I can remind him like, hey, bud I get it. You speak all these languages now and yes, you're incredibly smart. I get it. But man, like that was why it was so fun. Working with him was everythingvery I dreamed it would be because He was very hard on. And there was a lot left unsaid about those car rides. was I, there's things about those car rides that someone would have to not have microphones to really hear about what was going on with the two. He was very hard on me when he came back. He was very but not in the wrong way I do no service to the title that we brought out here. I do no service to the guys. I just wrestled Trick Williams, O by his first match. I do no service unless I have this information he gave me And I try to put it in play. and he meant it, John meant it when he said the day somebody does all this, They can take it. the day. He meant it and I just hope more guys listening know what that means, It means all the he's set an incredible standard And I'm glad You know how this is because you grew up liking the industry You grew up liking pro wrestling I always hated its cultural relevancy, how deep it would get its penetration globally, but then the treatment wasn't the same as maybe an actor on a show. It wasn't And I s to me, you know, my favorite actors, right? Andy Garcia is one of my favorite actors. I love The other favorite actor I have is my dad Most people wouldn't know he's an actor and a, you know, it's just, I'm glad that the worlds are starting to together in a way where it's such a nice thing A are you your dad was also suchuch a good basketball Right shot great graceful natural H whole his whole athleticism, I'll be frank Brian is bullshit It's it It's not because he really was, but Oh yeah it's annoying though It's annoy those it's like him and Harley Race look like Big old just barrel chested heels They didn't look like they could jump. He had a great jumper incredible baseball player. My mom always waxes poetic about oh he had these Beautiful cabs. likeike all this I don't know athletes were different, but I appreciate that you saw it because I'm going to ask you too about Bruno and why he was your favorite. But Dusty I always am shocked when people think it was his robust and his promo and they don't realize the third part was, Oh we could go in the ring That That's what I'm saying. He didn't let you it down when you would would read about these guys. Yeah. and you would see him and there was it was as exciting. Well, he had that thing that natural, great natural athletes have. He moved I think that's part of what he and Ernie Ladd have in common. as different as their body types land on their feet. They both could move Yeah. They could move. there was a gracefulness. your dad you know, big man. who's not a thin big man who could move with a sense of grace is all it's Charles Barcley, right It's a fascinating thing to see. wild. and you don't Oen you don't often see it, but Bruno, are can you shoot are Have you seen the video? I haven't seen you play. Okay. I'm a good basketball player. So you would be I don't want you to watch it because you would be ashamed of Oh no. and the So I seen a video of your dad playing bad This is that Charlotte police game where he's just sinking buckets and leading the team, staying Lex Lluger out there. no idea what's going on. just running up and down. our friends at Fanatics who help put this whole thing together. God bless Michael Rubin. He wants to do the Fanatics fest the games. no No lie, no hyperbole. I missed every shot. And Bailey texted me and said Is something wrong with your legs I gott to say Craig, can I can someone please It gott to say It's so because they thought like, Oh, he'sere you shot Where you shoot everywhere. It was a it was it was a it wasn't a three point t. It was just a shoot around. And the guy did you have a hoop in your driveway girl? I did and I wasn't that bad But then so I figured like they've seen it and I wasn't a suit and tie, but it's still no excuse. They've seen it. They shouldn't invite me back. This year, they're like, hey Do it you're gonna to do the Fanatics games. Why I wasn't in the running like, but I think I'm going goots up ahead of time. So I think I'm going to go at it again and I think I'm going to try and subvert expectations this time and get close. Tom Brady won it last year. put some shots up. Yeah a little practice. I played I played horse with him every day and junior high And I never beat him ever ever got and one time I got close. it was always a hook Always like a little space hook like because he was a huge doctor J fan. That awesome. you know, always the hook. Are you ready to hold WW history in the palm of your hand is bringing you closer to the action than ever before with WWE Pops now highlighting the biggest matches and milestones from WWE shows and POEs throughout the year. COS now is enhancing the fan experience by connecting collectors to the superstars and spectacles that ignite their passion Featuring stunning event exclusive photography, each card is made for the moment. and for some lucky collectors, that moment could become the pull of a lifetime. Along with serial numbered parallels, some Topn releases offer a chance at rare short prints, superstar autographs, and even pieces of the mat, gear or other items used during the featured match So Which moment will you collect With each card only available for a limited time, you won't want to wait to begin your topsn now journey Be sure to subscribe to WWB Tops Now mailing list on tops. com and follow Tops on all social media platforms so you never miss a single moment You said your favorite of all was Bruno, correct? Yo yeah, I can yes, one hundred percent. So Bruno's favorite, do you have a top do you have and the worst question that wrestlers get asked all the time, but I feel fair to ask you and shut it down if you don't want to answer it. Do you have a Mount Rushmore of wrestlers for yourself Oh yeah, I can answer aount but it's not going to be the Mount Rushmore. I mean, I've watched all the clips of people. I can't argue with what people say the Mount Rushmore should be. Oh, no, but you're obviously that Mount Rushmore is right the people who drew the most They matter the most to arrestling. But if coming up in the era I did Um mean it's the guys that were It's truly the people that we're talking about. It's it's Bruno and your dad are the first two people on it. You got to have Rick Flair on there. right that's That's three people. Yeah and the fourth spot you know, when you're When you were my age, there were guys on TV who J just made you smile like Ivan Putsky, but he doesn't belong up. You can't put Ivan Putsky up there Um Maybe Mil mascaris That's a great bound Rush back . But if you want to know why, if your question is why Bruno San Martino? Yeah. And I think he's like, you know, In fact, I cared so much that u My son who and it only matters for this reason because you'll understand how important soing was to him, notot to me. I didn't go to this My son ended up going to Harvard. And yeah, it's great. But here's the thing H SATs that you could imagine were important to him We're forty eight hours after Bruno's induction into the Hall of Fame And I made Sam come with me to the garden. ad I have got to really I have to study for this. I spent my life trying to do this thing And I was like, No, no, that's true, but' very important that Bruno's getting in the Hall of Fame tonight Yeah. And he's like, I cannot believe you're going to make me I'm like, no,one my friends are gonna to go with me. And you know, you got to come with me. And I was like, you know, I couldn't even get into the garden when my dad wanted to take me. So you have to come with me. And he's like, Yeah, but I don't care. And then I said, But when you did, I got you to meet Scott Steiner once. and he was like, shit, you're right. All right. We came together, but I decided that night I didn't want to ask An of my friends to get me tickets. I just wanted to come here like a wrestling fan I don't want to be a special area. I don't want to go backstage. I didn't want to locker room. I wanted to come like the kid that I was and sit in the bleat like sit in the fucking bad seats. and watch Bruno get inducted. And so I had a Bruno E Mertino t shirt And I we took the train here. hadad decent seats. you know, I sprung for decent seats, it turned out But Sam, Imit, he brought his like SAT study guy And I'm there, you know, I've mostly lost my long Island accent, but not that night. And I was, you know, fucking Bruno and I was so excited and fully in character And he's sitting next to me studying for the SAT. So watching him get in was this incredibly moving thing. And the reason is What you just said about what matters to you, which is never breaking the promise to the fans. Yeah and There was not a moment You know, you guys all talked about in the old days, right? And Paul Heaymond talked about it a lot protect the business at all costs Yeah. And if you were in a bar and someone was acting like a jerk, you guys would have to shut them down. And you beat them and get fired. Yeah, right. G to fire at least. Yeah. you but you couldn't ever acknowledge what you couldn't even allow the question because the business was in jeopardy and As you know, Bruno' the only guy who never ever publicly broke even long after, he refused. He would tell his story like that when he did Punks's podcast and he told that long That long story, he still has convinced himself that he lifted up Hastex Calhoun and that's how he got like he believes he he made himself believe the whole thing.ure. And so he made me believe in it Right? He made he was a lonely guy and he made kids who would have a lonely bad day believe that he was in there for us, right Yeah? And when he got betrayed, it was like we got betrayed and You know, you go back and w and look I'm not a big fan of the perm era. You know, he made like everybody. The guy made I mean him and Ken Ptera with the horrible pers, you know, fighting each other. but That guy was a true believer and he rewarded you being a true believer. Yeah. And whether obviously he knew what was going on, but he K Fab was baked so deep into that guy Yeah that to his dot literally to his dying day. who told the story of having to leave to come back and to convince the guy M he tells the buddy to I think he believes the Buddy Rogers match was his shoot Like, I think he told us so many times. He believed it. so I still believe it. Like to this day, I would tell somebody else You you know, Budy Rgers didn't want to give him the bell. I know it's not true, but it's what I believe in my heart. But I mean, the man who shot Liberty Valence, you print the legend And also One of my favorite movies W could be my favorite movie W all time. And I still have picture Bruno my office. Yeah You said he talks about the superstar and how it went down winning the title and The real the truth is when it's that good I don't know if they're lying And that's the beauty. I have grown up in this business I should know everything for what it is, right? Oh, that's what it really is There is nights that I still don't know and it That's The one thing I'm so grateful about being a pro wrestler and being in this world is I still have that's why I like Unreal The challenge of Unreal is okay We're going to show them everything, right? Are we? You know, like the challenges, but also him believing it and I mean, to have the soundtrack. you hear it all the time now, peopleople talk about the chance of Bruno through the garden, the chance of Bruno in Philly, the chance of Bruno being he didn't even need music. Of course, there was none then, but just the fact that it echoed throughout to be people's You'll hear this a lot from different wrestling bookers. Youll hear them say, I want to make him my guy That's my guy. I didn't realize the importance of my guy until later in my career, what it really means. It means you are responsible that everyone here had a good time And if you are beaten up and sad and broken You still need to make sure that they know at the end of the night, okay Not my not my guy's night, but It's gonna to be o It's going to be that. This is really What you just said is really You're getting right to the heart of why this all matters so much I don't know if you ever saw Penn and telleller, you know, the magicians. When saw them actually They did their old show at the Westide Arts Theater, the first show It had a lot of Carney ten and one elements to it. in the end of the show, which Penn doesn't do anymore but he would eat fire And he would deconstruct what everybody thinks, you know, cold fire it is to eat Wh you eat fire? and how you eat fire And he said, Oh he said, you know, oftentimes some guy is trying to be smart for his date will try to tell them Let me let me explain to you how This is done and he said, that's the wrong question. The wrong question isn't How do I eat fire? That's the wrong question, the right question is why? Yeah? T why eat fire? Yeah And when you think of it that way Why do you do what you do? Be there is some kid there who needs you to do it. Yeah, who had a day that you can't even imagine today and One thing after another went bad, maybe very bad He can believe in the deal you're making with him that you're gonna fight the good. And it's so important that that exists in a world that offers it almost nowhere. And the fact that every night you guys show up to do that. and you show up because you know that somebody in the Yeahah, most people' just having a fun night out. But for some people, and even if it's just one or two people, it means the entire world And that's the importance of what you do. It's the thing that a lot of you know, may people don't understand. And why don you say, Well, why shouldn't people understand what Dusty did in the ring and what he gave of himself in the acting But the people who needed it on that I needed Bruna. There were knights, I mean When I was twelve and a half my closest friend committed suicide. And you know no one can explain that to you. It wasn't an era where there was therapy easily available No Bruno San Martino was gonna Make sure Larry Zavisco knew that he couldn't betray him. Yeah. And it was something to believe in when you couldn't believe in anything else, right? And that's the And that's the incredible thing that that Cena understands Yeah and you understand and the and the greatest ever do it understand It makes me think a little bit about Flare as you're talking because Fayers lived kind of like a live wire The good, the bad, everything when he's in there. I think I think I've he or even heard him say it before Thanks for needing me. I needed you just as much. This is That's probably you'll hear me like a Braggadoha since in med anduff today, I'll tell people all the time because they talk a lot about, well, Cody's forty and punk is this age and I always say, well, I don't sweat any of them. Like I don't sweat any of the new class What I mean is I already know how great they are I already know the incredible moves and the high spots and the athleticism. It's like any sports its like college football. The speeds didn't turn way up. I know all of that But until they find the thing that makes you sincerely connect to them You're just doing a dance with your buddy And that's not what we're here for. And we're in the place that lets you have it for good, for bad. Loudest the longest. I mean, we're in the garden and I and I'm excited. There's a couple of guys. This would be their first Oh, really their first time. Oh yeah. this is their first moment and to be able to take that and look and And and I this is a funny thing about baby faces I can always tell a green baby face and I'm not the expert on anything, but I can always tell a green baby face byy they come out. When they go to slap hands. But they don't look it anyore Touch a face miss a hand that wasn't there because they're nervous. because they think this is a thing babyfaces do Now look at them. Look at them. If you only get one, I mean, Sid, he's going on the haall of Fame. Sid would just do one. little fist pound right there. Oh, you could feel it in the whole arena. You wanted to get that fist pound. It's a way to ground yourself to what we're doing. And again, I Like you've brought this the scena style of why we do this all out My gosh M, thank you for coming on here. Man, thanks for having me. What is pleasure This is special Do you miss the old entrance No you know, I've been I'm so used to thata where I live, like I just take the train But I mean, the old entrance in the arena. You know I know exactly you're talking about know I remember the run? Yes, I have a good story. I'll say off Mike about the There's a lot of stuff I miss about the way things in New York used to be, but if you're a New Yorker, Yeah. You have two choices. You can like live in the nostalgia of it. or you can just move forward at the pace of the city. Okay. So if I think about that, I'm thinking about my dad and I'm thinking about coming to those Nick Gam sure Clyde and Pearl. Yeah and The crowd chanting Bruno And instead, I'm here with the crowd Channing for Cies And we hope they'll probably be out of the building. One of the other. Yeah, one of those. We're happy with suck tight We' happy suck. J you know try not to suck, man. And then they'll cheer. It'll be fine. It'll work out. Yeah. I mean, should you just not suck? No, I will I will tonight I promise you, I give you my word. I will do my best to not suck. There it is. I will do my best. Okay,, one more question. Earl the Parl, what was his manager's name? Oh, the guy who would follow him around was called Dance and Harry. And you could find footage of him Dance and Harry. And he followed him from Baltimore. and then when he came to the Kicks, it was an incredible thing. He would put a hex on the opposing team on whoever was playing well or on the coach and it was like a pro wrestling So we we like to do this thing. wheatly American vodka myself, we consider ourselves the American dream team. And I always want to ask our guests who they consider their dream team The way to put this is explain it. Yeah Who are you going into a war games with? right? If you've got five guys or a sururvivor series match, teams of five strive to survive. That's a lot to say with the lisp. Who are you bringing with you to those type moments. Oh, that's a good question. We've had a lot of answers with six people, three people, two people. who's who's in that circle? Who's in that orbit onest, I'm bring Beckyn Great choice I'm bringing Becky in and I'm following her. I mean Becky came on our show. Yes. and the pressure I've seen Professional athletes I've seen Famous people from other walks of life who all said like So I'll never be nervous. Don't worry I don't have to prepare Yeah. I'll come in two people And it's not a surprise. Coach Caliry did a cameo and was the same and he's not an actor But he came in co He was like on you could give that guy. He was sending me tapes weeks in advance of the speech the character had to give and going like, did I do it right? Is this good? He coached himself up and he was incredible And Becky was the other one. Becky had a hard scene to do real acting And she came in and she had to do stunts and acting. and Everybody was freaking out that she was on set and nobody knew what it was going be like and she just crrushed. So that I would say Uh, I would have Becky and uh I mean, you're on there, man. Oh I'm honored. I think you're the first time again guest actually picked me for their team. You would Thank there. I'm really listen, it's a serious question Who would you go into battle with? Yes. I mean, I got to stick with folks who I'll tell you, I pick Paul Hayman too because I want someone to think our way out of the problem I would be straight. I don't know if he's going to battle a lot. No. no, no, no, he'll stop. He'll right before the battle He'll get us out of it. Al S school horse commommander Way up on the hill, you know? Yeah. I think that's my squad. That that's it right there. That's my squad. That's a great squad. I think we' do fine I'm not just gonna throw names at you. I gott to think about who I'd really want. We would dominate this in this situation. Yeah, you know We could add Dance and Harry to curse some people here. There's I mean, I can add a lot of people, but if I'm really, if I'm really thinking about I love that. Thank I'm just going to big guys. I'm not just going to pick, you know, Roman Well he's pretty big. I always pick a lot of shooters. like anyone who tells me like, oh, I'd bringable' like, yep We'd win You know, Yeah. so ye I'd bring I mean, you'd pick Brock, but then let's say you pick Brock and then the plane there crashes. He's going to eat You know what I mean? You're going be food. So I don't I don't want to I'm never pull that threadfulold if you think about, you would be as he for I think about that guy goes out, he hus. he could butcher the thing himself or you're fucking dead man. Yeah he sent he sent me an entire cow that he u butchered and cut for the meat and sent me the meat, but he also sent me a photo of him with the cow. Uh you see? Yeah, you think that and that cow thought I'm good. I got rock on my. It's just him with' just him with like the best on and just a thumbs up and it's I mean, he's An unbelievable, unbelievable athlete in terms of long term you know, storytelling and then when you develop characters for your worlds Is there any time you have Cold from pro wrestling or have a similar approach to maybe how a pro wrestling angle or storyline function in terms of your process, creating a character. I mean I'll answer it really honestly Wrestling is so deeply ingrained in me Watching it and reading those magazines There's no way I wouldn't be But I will say my process, if you're really asking the question like I'm not very analytical when I do that stuff. As a writer, as someone working as an artist, I'm really trying to get to a state of flow I'm not trying to think How can I put these elements together I'm trying to get to a place where my imagination is just flowing so that when I'm coming up with a character or I'm thinking about what a character would say or feel or think It's so connected to like L guy I meanm, just, you know, There are so many processes I have in place to do that. like I have I get up, I meditate, I journal, I exercise, so that U I'm trying to find a way to trick myself into not letting that analytical part take over. So that it's that feeling. I mean, you know it, you know that feeling when this when you're in a state of flow in the ring E though you're calling them at, you know, whether the hes even though you guys are talking and the stuff coming in. You're not thinking about the character Cody Rhodes those the best moments are the moments where you're flying, right? Yes. And that's where you know you are, of course, you're not, but you are in that I describe it as being barely tethered to the earth. floating, but somehow hyper present And I think when you're creating stuff, that's the best. And so of course I'm thinking of every double cross I ever saw and somewhere in me, I'm thinking about makes a character heroic and valiant and I'm thinking about everything thing I've read and come across and watched. And a lot of those formative years were spent during the week because remember wrestling was only on like once a week or maybe you could get on UHF you could pick something up a second time. So you were thinking about all week long, like what are those matches going to be? What's Dominic Danouucci going to say, you know? And What is Gorilla going you know, and you were thinking all that stuff through and you were imagining these characters. So of course it's in there, but it's not in there in a conscious way, but nothing is really in there in a conscious way. it's all you take stuff in and then you hope when you're creating All that synthesizing has just happened and it shows up, you know, Can I have your permission to use Stata fllow? Yeah, anytime. Beuse that is That is me today. Yeah There's a bunch going on about well we could say we need to get here. and a little setup for this and none of it was, why don't we just flow at one time? Why don't we just we could just pipe dream. What if we say I love the idea of state of flow And I feel like stata flow only comes from being prepared. That's I was going So people can confuse just to follow the scena thing of trying to give like actionable things to people if they're young and they're listening. Yeah Don't ignore all the stuff about The way I got to that place is by doing a whole bunch of stuff. Y, meditating, journaling, thinking a lot, reading a lot, watching a lot of stuff And then you write from a place of freedom thenen you have to rewrite and rework the thing and take those things and then you apply your analytical mind to, is this strong enough? Is this character real enough? Yeah. Does the character want something? And I'd say that's the last thing What's key for professional wrestling What do these characters in the ring want? And why do they want that thing so badly And I'm thinking about that in every scene that I write because if you think about what does somebody want Why can't they get it? and why do they need it so badly right now Yeah The rest of it is very straightforward and relatively easy if you're prepared. It's like what does Cody Rhodes want Why does he need it now? And what's hurting Cody Rhodes?