Fast Five and Final Thoughts

in that first week a woman coming up who had been paralyzed down one side of her body since she was four. Sheage can't believe but she can move her arm for the first time Welc back to What's the Tick. I amm your host Ben Hannan. and this is the podcast where I sit down with the world's most creative people and try and to understand their creative process. And this week's episode, our guest is the one and only Darren Brown. Oh, I mean, let's just take a moment. When I first started this podcast twenty something episodes ago He was on my dream list and we've made it happen. And I'll be honest you, this conversation does not disappoint. So let's just bring you up to speed on Darren. He got into hypnosis when he was at Bristol University studying law and German. and from there he went down that rabbit hole of learning hypnosis and everything around that Then he discovered magic and he also dabbled in a bit of that. And then fast forward to the year two thousand, there was the Darren Brown Mind Control One hour spepecial on channel four, which went down unbelievably well. And the reason is just a bit of context, is he was doing mentalism And like other performers, he crereatate a whole different way of doing it. You can pretty much tell you that mentalism has everything before Darren Brown and then after Darren Brown. He changed the genre and inspired so many other performers to do something similar. From there it's been a springboard. He's had a huge TV career. He's done things like Russian Roulette The lottery prediction live, the apocalypse, the push, loads of other different TV shows on Channel four and on Netflix. And then he's also written books. And the thing I want to tell you about as well is his live shows. I always say if you've never been to a Darren Brown live show you should go. And that's how we caught up because he's currently on tour doing only human And I went to see it in Birmingham the night before we recorded this and then weght caght up in Birmingham and talked about it. And in this episode, we talk about I really wanted to discover where the ideas start from, these big psychological experiments Where do they start? and then how do you turn them into what we see on TV or stage? So he was really lovely to chat to. I'm going shut up so you can listen to him as well. This is What's the trick with Darren Brown T I'm going to start with a question. It's very simple How do you create a Darren Brown stage show So where does it start the idea and if we can take it step by step from there U Well, have it I mean, I've done whatever eleven or twelve of them now. I think the process has been the same since day one, but it mainly comes to the fact I work with a team on these things so that naturally sort of shapes it a bit. donon't give it any thought at all u it's the first stage until it comes to writing time. and then we will have Maybe a six week period, which nowadays is all Zoom When there's three of us which is in good number So on this current show it's been me, Andrew O'Connor and Stephen Long, who you get all you know as a magician Previously obviously, Andne D Neyman has been very involved and I'm sure we'll be in the future, but he's been busy with other things on this one. Anyway. so talk and I guess I the probably bring the B idea of what I kind of want the show to be about. That's going to be I've probably arrived at that thought which may tie with what other things I'm working on or writing about at the time We all then discuss what that means and find the material together and then And then it's the other end of the process, the actual sort of writing writing. I do a lot of that myself as well. We'll take my wors on. C we dive into that. So at this point then, so you get on this sooon corner and you you say you got this six week window. Has the show gone on sale? Have you got a title? That's all happened. Oh, it's probably sold out by this point, which is so strange So you've got this title necessity. Yeah. And what so even the title do you just so comedians do this sometimes well they'll pick a Vagish title so that it gives them some scope to pick Yeah Is that kind of happen before? Totally. have happened with this show. So I've just totally got used to that because the theaters need their you know artwork in place to amverorttage your shows so far ahead of you actually writing the thing that you need a poster and a title and everything, which is why there' always a little bit generic, as you're saying that don't really bear much relation to the show, but they do give you a structure to work with. So with this show, interestingly, the poster, which is a very modern all I knew is let's just Do something that doesn't look like another sort of faded old world glamour whatever, you know, decrepid buildings and all those things I've spent a lot of time in. So it goes go for setting quite modern came up with this post, which I really liked And I thought, okay what Now what's this show about? It could be it could be an advert. painkiller C be that couldould it be about period pain? or the future somehow. And then that started to really form the show. A bunch of people were saying, Oh was this show about AI because the poster looked a little bit AM me And then I mean, it isn't, but it did make me think, okay, maybe the show could be about AI. And it's a very weird way of writing the show to put the poster around, seeee what people think the show's about and then write the show around that. And when you say you sit down and you've got this idea, this is the thing that I want to almost kind of go just before that element that sitting down there. Where did the kernels start to form? And something I was think about with your careerers, obviously you've done eleven of things eleven of these shows. Yeah.. You've done a I was if inspiration and material is a tank of fuel, you've used a lot of the tank, how do you top it back up? Where does the new inspiration or ideas come from and start to enter into the But it's right like you would I mean it's not like you thinking about things in your life. I think that would be an issue if u if I approach my work like it was one thing that I was just going to keep doing and then eventually people got bored of it. And I haven't ever done that. I've always just sort of followed my nose through what I find interesting. So when it comes to writing a new show That's just the question of what I find interesting at that moment. Normally because I'm writing know I might not always have a book on the go, but normally I'm planning something or there's normally something in my head that will be enough of a kernel of an idea to let's make the show about this. So those things don't run out because you know it's been a couple of years since the last time I had to of something I was thinking about, and hopefully I've thought about a few other things in the meantime. So I think if you're not just trying to do the same thing all the time, then that stuff is just gonna to kind of keep on giving. So the first phase for you is almost inward looking of what's going on in your life theme or the conversations or the thoughts that are interesting and pulling your attention It's sort of yeah what's the key urge? I mean, I remember thinking The show could be about love Like And it isn't really. That's not what it would end up being about. But that was the first thought. and I message them, Andrew and I said it's This's a show about love, I't done a show about love and it's a really interesting. big area and it's relevant to all of us and how weird that a magic show might be about love and there's plenty of sort of magic tricks that are sort of, you know have a love theme. But you know, a proper it did probably look at it would be interesting. And then it became something completely different. And then of course, the other thing is It's maybe will come to, but, you know You can get the show up on the road and now it's written and it's running and you realise it's about something else and then you slowly shift it that, which has certainly happened with this show as well. where it's ended up being isn't quite what the original plan was because it kind of becomes its own shape. For P people who don't do what you do is you put a show on sale, you've sold out,'ve with no idea what the show is, then you write the show and at that point sometimes you don't even know what the show is. that being almost relaxed enough to let it mold itself over time is you know, I would have thought, you know another answer for someone might have said would, well I've got an idea for a theme and then we go in and then that's what it's going to be and that's essentially just gets tweaked and ch. but no, you're bit more fluid than that. Ye ago I had a Ghost train ride at Thor Park. Yes. And it was all like VR and cement and steel and a big thing that was built for it and then this sort of VR thing at the heart of that. And It was interesting because was you know, once the VR was in place, you couldn't change it Once the steel and concrete was in place, you definitely couldn't change that. And those things are done sort of quite early on. and it was a bit like If in a play The moment someone's built the set, which is sort of quietly gone in the background while you're still working on, you know, the script, you're still rehearsing, you're then told, okay, that's it, no more changes. And it was It was sort of fascinating that how by not having the ability. to let something continue to grow and change, just how that how that totally sort of arrests that, you know, the process. So actually I think it's really important to have the freedom. And it's difficult nowadays's one thing we're findinding in this show. say you came and saw the show last night. We're in Birmingham at the moment doing it. and We are halfway through the second leg of the tour. so I've done maybe three hundred of these shows and' still making big changes. So the ending of the show you saw last night We only changed a couple of days before you saw it. So that's a constant process, which is strangely helped by the fact that it is so slow and difficult to make changes. So this is What I wanted to talk to you about this is famously you will change things and you'll constantly make them and let's dive into this in a little bit more detail. You'll make notes and you'll change them right up to almost the last night of the show pretty much if you think there's an improvement to be made. So I suppose Yeah, let's talk about where we are right now. You're half halfway isish through the run of this tour How are you with the show in your point how finished it is. And when do you feel like bits and things are finished? and how Are these notes given and then changed? G on, let's dive into that h sequence of it. Well, for a long time, it's going to be Andrew who's directing, watching the show. and here's the one that's going to spot the stuff. I'll have a sense during the show this isn't right, this isn't right. and I'll pass some of those things on if I can remember them. I have a code word that I say on stage I won't see what it is because it'll distract people. They come and see it. and it's to tell the people backstage, justust make a note of this moment. Really? That. It'll be something silly like you know It could be anything from Okay, look, there's a candle on stage, which you guys always put out for me. That candle is replacing because it's only an inch tall, but I'll forget that until the same moment of the show tomorrow. So I have this word that I say, they make a note and then they say, all right, you said it And the bit when the candle came out like, Oh, yes,es, can you please replace a candle? It' too short? Or it might be I think this bit isn't working. I've a vague sense of what it is but I just need to it's like a dump and to go. Can you remind me this afterwards? Do you ever do a code word for something sometometimes you come up with funny we all come up with little funny lines and go I hope I can remember that line. Oh just remember that. it's only when there's something wrong. Okay, cool Um So there's that. And then so that the first stage is just like it's like a big bag of wet cement. And it's slowly every night sets a little bit And then there's the other stag. You've now got a solid thing of cements and now you're kind of you know polishing it, you trying to make it shiny. So that goes on for Ireland again because of the technological difficulties. that just is very slow, but that's And so I quite like the fact that it's been a slow process of change because I'll had those You know, those's moments the perierods in between to actually kind of enjoy it. And then Also we've got the West End coming up. So things like that are helpful because Um in the west end there because you're in one theatre for a long time, there's just a bunch of stuff that you can do because it doesn't have to be a touring entity that can fit any size and shape or venue. So youve really got an opportunity to make the show look and feel at is best. So we're also using the time now to kind of set up for that. So we are looking at anything we can change now because it's much harder to change that when you're in the West E. So again, there's another very practical consideration that you know, it's a bit like the shows already sold out and you've got to write one, you know, just those natural things keep you going and keep you finding ideas. and Well let's go back a bit. So obviously you've sat on this call and you've bashed around ideas and I'm assuming just to speed things up a bit. I'm guessing you talk about the top line And then people challenge you and you come throw things down, when do you start thinking about as I want to say tricks, but when do you start thinking about the wow moments because other performers, especially if they're doing things that make people go my gosh, that's amazing, sometimes they start with that and go, I want to do this this and this. Yeah. Whereas it feels like in that writing process you've not even started there yet. We definitely don't start We definitely don't start with the troops. There might be something floating around from the start that's like, Oh you know what we've never done Yeah, you know, like probably the spirit cabinet was a bit like that. I did in one of the shows. I thought I was so good at a spirit cabinet. So there might be a little bit like something like that that floats around and then normally it's You know, not everything has to sit squarely. but generally it's what the show's about? What do you want the audience to go away thinking and feeling? What's the call to action What's the thing that you want them to wake up the next morning and go, rightight,' going I'm going do this now. But ultimately If the show's any about how other the tricks are done It's not very to me, it's not very interesting. You're going to have that anyway. ye, if people don't know how they're done, you've got that question. Yeah. if only, you know, being annoyed and wanting to know how it's done. like that's going to be there anyway. So that's sort of a given. But the challenge and the fun is what what is the show actually about? So like, you know, with the TV shows that I've done There's there's the hook. canan this guy you land an airplane or you know, find his way home or whatever, kill Stephen Frery. But beneath it there'll be some sort of subtepe. The show's actually about this, but you let that breathe and find its way out. So likewise with these shows, there's Um, There's the tricks or the routines and then there's this sort of through theme Um And then there's It's something that comes out of the theme that is allied to it. I like Peter Brooks's idea that there's a, you know, it's like a kernel And if you see it as in KE R NL. L if you see a play or something that affects you that you take away something from. Often it's just like this seed of an idea. it's not entirely clear. You're not told exactly, hey, here's what this is all about But youve just got this you can't quite articulate. sticks around. It sticks around, you take that away with you and it hopefully like a seed kind of, you know does its job and sort of germinates. So that would be the ideal. And then Of course on top of that, it's you know I want to just so you getting these ideas and these thoughts and these I guess tricks are starting to form here. And the thing that I always find the most baffling as a performer is you're going on stage at some point at the end of this six or eight week process in front of thousand odd people Well there's also the rehearsal that's Yeah. so it is after that which is this idea that you were doing a two and a bit hour show last night of material that I guessing a year or two ago you didn't know because it essentially all newew for this show. How do you then start rehearsing it? Be a lot of this as well only works on big audiences. Are you a machine? Are you getting up every day nine till five and just rehearsing? Is there a drill that you do? There's Well so we finished the writing process and then there might be a little gap of letting things germinate a bit and then we start rehearsing So rehearsals. is normally again,s sort of four to six weeks in a rehearsal room Um with the three of us and then bunch of ASMs and I've got this really really wonderful group with this show and then I think it starts off with just us so we can just think about the magicy methods of it and the nitty gritting, just find it before you start bringing in all the grown ups as it feels like who then want to see something a little bit more complete so they can find their role in it. So we have maybe I don't know the first week or two is just sort of playing around and we kind of find it and get it on his feet. So by that point I'm turning up not with the script, but I'm turning up with here's what the show is. Maybe there's simple chunks of script in there, depending on much actual writing, writing I've done And then we tri it and Um Andrew will watch and Andy will watch if he's co directing and then They'll get a well all between us, but something Andrew said, which I think is very true. The moment I'm in the reheouseal room, I become I totally hand everything over to them. So during the writing process, I'm driving it. I think it's fair to say But in the rehearsal process I've become quite submissive. To me, that's now their job and I'm tentative in putting things forward because I kind of I decide you know that's really not my job so much. we still all discuss it and find the show. And then we end up with something that works in a rehearsal room. But you're right. I mean, like the whole of the second half of Miracle, was one of the shows I did was faith healing. And I often do things that And there's a bit in this current show as well that you're dealing with a whole audience, their levels of suggestibility So I'm kind of fairly confident of this will work on a percentage of people, but you just don't know how and then You know, the whole of the second half was faith healing in miracles so there may have been no second half if it didn't work. and All I did know about faith healing and I'm talking about that, you know kind of evangelical style is that whenever that's done and whenever it's been done, that audience are onide, they're turning up and they're expecting it and they feel they need it And my audience, I knew would just the opposite of that. They'd be skeptical. surprised by it. So you mean people that claim to be faith ining that the people are so suggestive because they bought tickets to believe. Yeah, they want to be there and they know they're coming to see him and your if you you couldn't hand pick a worse crowd Exactly because they are known for going Yeah. Yeah, this is all BS. Yeah. And that's why we love Darren Exactly. So I hadn't I really had no idea. And then I remember just going out I don't know if it was quite the first night but then that first week, a woman coming up who had been paralyzed on one side of her body since she was four. She's in her forty, she's in tears Sage comly but she can move her arm for the first time And it was fascinating because I know I'm doing nothing other than providing some adrenaline and a kind of sort of an emotional event And then then became that then becomes the interesting stuff to lean into. So you let that come out more, though that the whole experiential side of it become the real meat. And then actually some of those mechanical tricks you've you might take out. I mean, maybe at the end you want to make sure there's no chance of it not coming together, but you might take some of those things out because now what you've just got is this fascinating human experience being lived out night after night. It was amazing. I mean O all the things I've done, it was the most Interesting for me to do every night I was just discovering some extraordinary things. So I went last night with my wife and she obviously I mean, she needs a medal. she's lived with a magician for twenty odd years. So She's dead behind the eyes there, Dereren, Do you know what I mean? It's not happening. But there was a bit last night and obviously we're notowed to talk about the show, but I think this kind of thing happens in a lot of your shows. so I think this is We can end this out if you took. But a woman comes up on stage and you put your hand in front of her face and you say sleep and she turns her head over, which you've done before on other things and And I kind of expect. I'm like, yes Darren does, he just does these things. And my wife turns to me and goes How's that? How is that happening? Yeah, ye yeah. Now can you give us a as to what's happening in the brain there or do you think? Well the first thing is it's different from night to night. Yes. They don't always react like that. but of course people will only have their story of the night that they saw it. you've got a wide range of how people respond, but essentially At that moment, I have two people come down they're at the bottom of the steps and I'm going to bring one up and do the first bit and then I'm going to come to that woman later So I have and there's a few moments like this in the show, I have like Four seconds to go which one of these two is the suggestible one. So last night There was u a woman who sort of had a slightly sensible air about her And one woman was very colorfully dressed and was sl slightly buzzy at the thought of coming up. She was not exactly trying to get up first, but she just had that energy about her. said great, I'll go with her second. I'll use the other woman first because I know what I need from the other woman for the other thing. And so I make that decision and then Um, Normally I sort of get that right? not all the time. And when that second woman came up and I had that sleep moment, she did respond well to it last night, but that's maybe you know, half the time. and the other half the time it it's still like what's going on there? and maybe it's a bit creepy, but it isn't like the fuck's that? She's just She sleep what's just got, you know, and sometimes you know it really varies. And there's another point in the show where I'm putting people to sleep in the audience, I'm out doing that in the audience. and I get because I'm very close up to it, I get a real sense of who's. really responding to it with like every ounce of their being and who isn't And then again, I can kind of choose who to work with best. So I'm doing a lot of that sort of filtering out, but ultimately the aim of making it look like I can just sort of click my fingers and do this stuff to anybody. And of course that isn't can't I can't just walk up someone in the street necessarily and do that, but in certain certain scenarios I could like if they recognize it like a lot of it is just the sh. I mean, the handshake moment that you're talking about. So I bring this woman up She's just seen me do something weird with someone else on stage. Now she comes up, now it's her turn It's weird coming up on stage. I bring her up, but I purposely don't ask her a name Um So she' not be made to feel comfortable yet I tell her to come sound a little red cross and turn and face the audience. so she's getting used to following specific instructions, like there's a sense of I have to do this Correctly, all right? She turns the face to the audence and she looks the audience, she realizes she can't see the audience. She hasn't had a chance to see that because it's just blackness U So that's very odd for her. disorientained. Eactly. Yeah. So then at the height of that oddness I ask her her name, she says it. I go to shake her hand and then I interrupt the handshake. now this is it's a sort of hypnotic technique, which is not my own, but you you know somebody comes up to you in the street that you don't know and says, It's not twenty to eight Your reaction isn't to go, yeah, I know, it's it's just like a bewildering Your brain confused. Your brain's confused and you want something to make sense of the situation. And a handshake is is such an automatic thing you're all used to. You take the hand, you shake the hand You're just sort of going through this thing that If someone interrupts it, like they don't take your hand and they bring your hand up to your face and say, sleep It's the relief from that moment of bewilderment, which I've exaggerated by them he up on stage all those things. here's a clear example telling them what to do, sleep. And with it, I keep talking. justust let yourself properly drift down and d that,. And before they know it, they're just going with it. And then as I said, there's a difference. Some people will If they're naturally suggestible, I can see they're properly going with it. they might fall over, they might collapse back, they might like the woman last night sort of stand with their head hanging oddly. and other times I can see that they're They're just sort of doing what I'm telling them, but they're not really in it in the same way, but it doesn't matter too much for what I'm doing. so that's fine. Great. Well, thank you for sharing. That was just' because it's something that we've seen hypnotists do in the group, but it usually they're going through a lot more processes, and it was just the shock of seeing someone who was smiling one second to then bang head down. It was really fascinating Hello, it's Ben. This is a short commercial break. but for you regular listers, you'll know it's not really a commercial break because we do not have any sponsors. But what I can do is we can give a plug to Mr. Darren Brown himself. As I've said, if you have never been to a Darren Brown show Go to it Only human is on tour. you can go to it's nationally still going around the country and then it's going to be in the West endnd towards the end of the year. Have a look at that. You can find that on Google and find out Darren Brown's website and his tour dates. and he's also on Instagram. so you can give him a follow there. You will not be disappointed Other things for me to tell you is you might wonder what do I do outside of this? I do a lot of performing and keynotes about human connection and it's really nice this conversation with Darren. reinforces a lot of that actually. So if that's something, if you're someone who's involved in conferences or corporate events, have a look at Benhallen. com and you can see what I've been up to there. And then what I need to say is thank you to all of you listeners. If you're new here, you are very much welcome I'm trying to build this community of people that want to have these conversations all about creativity. And we are about twenty five episodes in or so now. And if you can be amazing just to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss next week's episode If you want to give it a star rating that helps. but the one thing I'm going to ask you to do is who do you know who would love this conversation? Is it a magician that you know? Is it someone you know who's been to the Dereren Brown show? And if so, send them this on a WhatsApp link or and just say, Hey, give this a listen Oh, that's another listener just joined us, maybe. And the idea is if every week we can share this with another one person or another one person, eventually this lovely community of people who want to hear these conversations is going to grow. That's my p overver. So anyway, that's enough for me. Let's get back into this. is What's the trick with Darren Brown? You walk on stage for thousands of people. And again, it's very rarely that there's a show with just one gu one person at the helm of this thing for two hundred hours. And there's a thousand, a couple of thousand people there and you manage to connect with them And let's start with How do we do that, then Darren Darren, Darren. How do we find a connection with these people. So I used to Got watch magic conventions a lot when they' had these sort of gala shows. There was always a a moment When the MC would introduce the next act, there's normally a microphone on stage and there's like five seconds and you're waiting for the next person to walk on. and I used to find that moment so enticing and I remember I just remember this feeling because you're getting it again and again where There's an empty stage, there's a microphone, there's all this that bristling feeling of potential And it's so interesting when somebody walks out within before they've reached the mic You're either totally on this side and going, wow, or you're like And there's quite a lot of if you're watching a range of variety of magicians. So that It is It is fascinating. What is it that everyone's responding to in that second. Isn't it in that, isn't it that as an audience member, we're trying to work out are we going to be in safe hands or not? Exactly. And the moment and we're excited but also slightly stressed. and the moment we can see it displayed, we relax and go, great. we're on ro Yeah Yeah right? Yeah, exactly. And I think I think that's a very difficult thing to sort of Tease apart. What you what you bring onto stage is enormous, but it's not And it might be stuff you think about a lot consciously at the start, but ultimately you sort of Don't, you're just aware. I find myself thinking about a little bit because this show starts with the sort of the sort of iron or the whon iron. it's just like the curtain goes up and just I'm stood there. And for a little while I'm just stood behind that thing, listening to this sort thing that's playing and can sort of hear the audience buzzing and I'm slightly g to be no, checking my fliesers are done up and all those sort of things. and then I sort of get into position and I'm very aware that nothing changes in me. my heart rate doesn't the only thing I have that maybe they're slightly displaced nervous things if E my fllyiess down, my socks pulled up. I just pull them up again. There's a little bit of that. but I Don't experience any sort of sort of shift only because I've done it so many times, right And I think that I probably managed to pull off I'm very, very relaxed on stage. Jes. doesn't feel stressful Um it's different when the show's just opening or you doing it the first time or it's changed six times that week and you're just struggling to remember. When your brains have it to work, come? Yeah. But generally speaking I think if you can be very relaxed That's the big thing that people respond to. But of course, it's not just enough to be relaxed. That has to be coupled with certain skills and way that you then look at an audience, you know that thing of you can always tell when someone is used to playing larger audiences because they look up because they you know, if there's a balcony there, they look up. One of the things I know I have to do and it's second nature now is check where all the exit lights are in the darkness Because if I can look at those, then I know'm I've covering like I'm including everybody because I'm looking just above the heads of everybody in the audience. That's a great tip. I don't know if many people listen will have to use that on tip. does Well, but it is a thing It's a thing Yeahah, abolutely. because if you you can tell the You can tell them the magicians only play small houses because they look down. And if you look if you look down at the people in the front row which is the natural tendency to everyone feels very excluded. So there are a little funny sort of technical things like that, you know, about where you where you look and of course body language and all that stuff and I've sort of I'm tinkering around at the moment with just sort of how I just play that the first ten seconds of coming out just to sort of maximize because it slightly takes people off Um, God, we had a weird thing where we brought so that appearance, right, which is it's just a curtain goes up and understood there. But for various technical reasons, we moved it back. So I'm further upstage, right further towards the back of the stage E exactly the same thing curtain goes up and on there and it was really interesting The applause first just died by half and some night there was nothing, like no one clapped at all. and it was eggy like it was o hello and heard a of nervous laughter. Yeah. And we couldn't work out what it was. All this happened is just gone back six feet and that's all it was. and then we just rearrange everything proly back right in front of the stage and suddenly all the Because you're biger as. likeike you're bigger there, you know, you're closer to them yeah. Yeah, exactly. So there you know, there are There are those sorts of things and I'm yeah, I said because it's a weird moment I think that the applause I get at that moment doesn't quite match the anticipation I can hear the electrics sort of buzzing in the audience beforehand. So I'm now just for myself playing around with how to ake that applause the st because so they were things like that. But essentially, I think the key thing is Is this person at home on stage? And if they are, then I think we in the audience feel relaxed in the company and that's such a big. Well, interestingly again, I was chatking to my wife in the car home last night and she used this pretty much these she went. Obviously the show is great. as what she was from. It just seems like such a lovely man. Oh I was like No, he really no But that and I want to talk about liability. Okay. And I think don't be modest here because I think let's look at this. you are very likekable and there's a lot of performers don't get that and there's this That makes people thousands of people want to be in the room Have you worked out you've done that or how that comes across because I'm notggyll this. I love it. I love it. But like this is the granular thing of actually Yeah yeah Be likable. L people go, I want to be in this person's company, but how do we do that Okay, so I think I think are there are a few things, I think which I've u But something my manager something you said to me, A few years into it. He said, it's unusual. You any magician where the show is about the audience, not about you And actually I found that a really helpful thought because now when we go to these shows, As remember the show is about the audience. so what where does that thought go? Like it's hell to have somebody articulate something like that you haven't really thought of. Um, partarticularly with magic I think a lot of the reason why a lot of magicians are sort of a bit unlikable is that they naturally make it about themselves. are You know, you're the magician on stage who's apparently got special powers. like you've won that game of status. You don't now need to play that out You know, you've won the game, you don't need to keep playing it, right? So I love one of the things I really love about comedians is All good comedians, not all comedians, but the ones I have anyway is that they make fun of themselves. Right Yeah. So they're playing generally lower status, which is easy to do as I say easy easier to do as a comic because you can have you know ludicrously exaggerated opinions or funny misunderstandings about stuff which make it look like a fool. but it allows you to get away with actually Talking about how We might live better within all of that stuff, which I love, which Con is doing, right? I'm saying it because magicians have the problem of High status So if you're playing a higher status than your audience it would be very hard to then talk about how we might, you know live and I like to talk about that stuff. because I find that more interesting than the magic. So a very helpful thing I found is to undercut might status as much as I can. so I really try not to play up to it And if I do, it's in a very it's in a specific way to sort of heighten the thing that I'm doing at the time. my character is as much as close to the best version of me I can think of and isn't isn't self serving. I'm not saying lookook at me aren'ti clever. So it's a whole thing of having a cake and eating it really. but you just, you know, You don't want to be if you're going to talk about life stuff as I tend to do, you don't want to be preachy. so to make it not preachacy, you have to come from your own place of your own vulnerabilities. So that's another level to it is to make the show one in which for all your status and special powers, you're also vulnerable by that sub. And that thought really comes from Teller and a discussion we had years ago, which was really formative for me. T Teller pare and teller. When he said that, you know, that Classically in drama we find God figures are not interesting, right If you can take your fingers and make anything happen, that's not interesting dramatically. What's interesting dramatically is a hero. and a hero is someone who struggles, has vulnerabilities and may end up and probably will end up somewhere different from where they thought they were heading. Um, and I thought that was fascinating and particularly fascinating for magic. and it's one of the reasons why my TV shows shifted from me doing my stuff out on the street or wherever or in some divapitated building to being behind the scenes and now you're watching a member of the public, a hero go through exactly that sort of journey, some sort of hero's journey. And I'm just the guy behind the scenes And that seemed far more interesting dramatically and therefore I think brought more longevity with it in terms of my career and probably made me a lot less annoying as well And it's going back to I think they say making it about them. There's a couple last things I want to talk about station and then we will talk about the TV things. Very quickly, I've got two words here written, which is openings and finales. Yeah. So one thing I've noticed in your entire career and you've mentioned it briefly, but it seems like you give a lot of attention to openings of finales. I remember one of my most vivid memories of your entire career and it's something that maybe wouldn't connect with. There was this one of your TV shows, it was an opening of one of the series And it was somebody walking down the street, the phone rings, they go in a phone box, they answer the phone And you don't know what's been said, but this complete stranger just collapses down in the phone box. Now, phone boxes don't exist anymore, that was We're thirty seconds into this TV show And it was just beautiful opening. And a lot of your stage, I'm not going to go through, but a lot of your stage openings have that same impact. It's like you come out, no factat bang What's the thought Is it literally a case of I want to grab him as quick as I can, I want to disrupt him. what's the Stan Laurel said it which is start strong end big and I think that that's the rule. Start with a really strong idea, which can be small in terms of what you're doing, but it's a strong C clear idea that he is going to grab everybody and then you finish would be ca And I think that's really that's very helpful. Start strrong and big. I love that. And then I'm going to ask you, what's of all of the shows What's one of your favorite The tricks been it pieces And it'd be good to kind of understand how that I've got one that I've written down, even though I could have written loads, but I'm going I'll wit for yours Oh, that's really hard to say. Mbe I mean, I can't remember them all as the reality It just you know twentyenty oddos are doing that. I think the one that comes to mind is the ending of showowman which was Well it was a lot of there were like six sixteen endings to that show, but sixteen end c one Yeah. It was a lot of it. it was a very layered ending, but the bit that I mean is this card trick. Wh? the audience lose ten seconds of time. You ever se see it you I'm? Yes? Yes, I do. Well, some of the audience lose ten seconds of time. I think thats what that's what jumps out of my mind. So basically of the audience is seeing a ctrick and The person on stage keeps blacking out and missing the fact that they've They've gone and put the card in the box And then they keep being amazed at the fact that their card ends up in the box, right? So we're seeing them fooled by it, but we're seeing them go and do it. And then finally, we in the audience black out and then the card's in the box and we've missed ten seconds of time ourselves But the challenge was So if we can only do this, If you feel in the audience that it's only worked on half you're one of the people it's worked on and then the It's weird of the trick because you have this moment where the audience had the blackout bit And then I'm then going to the box and I'm taking the card out or someone's taking the card out and it's the ass signed card and all the things I need to do to finish the it. no one's paying any attention to that. The audience just Yeah know just all discussed. D did you just miss that? Did I miss it? did you and people are talking with the layers in the roowse And it was so exciting. That was such a lovely a lovely bit. So yeah, that kind of that I think that sticks in my mind. I had one, and I hope you don't mind talking about it I call it well the Gorilla trick. Oh the Gorilla trick. So what I love it I mean and again, just maybe it's the visual image of it. For those that haven't seen it, I'll paraphrase what happened in my brain. you tell me if for'm getting this wrong. In essence, you playing a and I love your fun bits when you're having fun. it was his banana It's I'm going to put it on this table at the side of the stage and it's going to vanish at some point, but none of you thousand people going to see this banana vanish. You carry on doing your stuff and then o, the bananass gone, you missed that That was misdirection. happens again And then you put it back on then and it's going to happen again. this time you pick up a board and you reveal something by holding a massive board in front of you And then you say, look, the banana's gone, but we can't see you because you've covered yourself with the board And then a gorilla comes out and grabs the banana. and everyone goes, Well, I can see that and then you k off the gorilla head. And somehow you've switch places with whoever it is on the stage holding the board, and you're now in a gerilla suit. And it seamlessly happens in about five seconds That's how I remember it. I mean, I I paraphraseed that? Yeah, I meaning. Yeah we start off showing there's a famous gorilla experiment when everybody misses the gorilla walking into the room. So we show a version of that film by Daniel Simondons, I think was the psychologist behind it. It's a really brilliant and iconic bit of Uh psychology experiment. and then so I say a gorilla is going to walk on stage and take the banana. everybody misses it the first time. and the second time they think they've caught it then the griller Texas head off and and it's me. Yeahah, that was fun. So my question is then, That was the trick. Can you tell us then where that idea came from? Do you remember how that formulated I think it must have come from the gorilla experiment Originally and then Often these things just they just come with a Um core image that isn't the trick. They come in like that somewhere around the middle. that would be a really, you know, there was in one of the shows it was how about someone in the audience in a they're in a smock, they're walking through the audience like a zombie with their arm out, arm pointing out like a sort of character from a on those Japanese horror films. Tanced out walking through the audience, finding somebody by pointing to them. and that's just the image. then you sort of build, what would the trick be around that? And I'm sure that would have gone the same route. And interestingly, the last thing we ever talk about is the methods. All the routines that have gone into the shows over the years that started with a delicious method that we loved, which sometimes is just, you know really appealing starting part. They're always the ones that get taken out. They just never quite make the top tier material because you haven't started with this image this sort of whether it's an uncanny or fun or exciting image You just know it's going to work and then you found the trick around it. You started with started with a method, which is never the right way of doing it and it never quite Hits the sport. Great. Right. until do, we've talked enough about the stage stuff and a lot people are going, Ben, you haven't even mentioned TV yet. We're not going to go through everything because there's too much. So I'm just going to start I pick one thing, I think becauseast said these. For me and maybe two thousand three is when you first did the live special Russian roulette which I remember as a fan. and I think it stops the whole country at the time. It was massive, it was huge. Let's go back to that. I think. think that would be really interesting. How did you walk into channel four and go, Right, you've had these prereorded series. We're going to do this thing and it's going to be like nothing's ever been on tele before. How did that come about, Dar? U I think this is mainly Andrew O Connor. so he was running objective at the time It was his idea do that is a big sort of shouty stunt. I think I was probably a bit skeptical about it. I sort of I'm sort of, you know, not notot very big and shout as a person and naturally just shied away from big publlicy stunts over the years, which is silly, so as I've done a few of them. But as I say, you've done quite a couple. Yeah, I have. then And then we all sort of sat around and discussed it. but I think I think It was This is funny Iven't done TV for a while and it is Different like the TV landscape is very different and it's hard to know That sort of event TV as they like to call it. how that would sit nowadays. And I have got a TV thing coming up at the end of this year, which is a series and And it'd be interesting to You seeee how that is. It's you know on channel four again, so it' feel very much. sort of in that world. but the idea of people you know, gathering around a little box if you can't afford a TV. Ging on a TV to watch these things is kind of it's sort of exciting. you know it's hard to I don' to know what that's like now. So I don't yeah, I mean, the reality is I don't really know how the idea was sold, but I think Channel four just really liked the excitement of it all. they were and are brilliantly behind doing anything that's sort of, you know outrageous and. And so I think they just went with it. and it was funny at the time. it was just sort of we were all just thinking about what's going to go into the show? what are these segments going to be What's the structure of the actual Rolete game at the end and sort of missing the fact that It was sort of a thing that was in the air. like that totally goes over your head. You have no sense of that until, you know, it's all in the papers or whatever afterwards or people are still talking about it however long later. none of that's in your head. You're not thinking, well, I mean, Andrew madeum. I certainly wasn't thinking I'm doing this compelling thing. I'm just thinking what's the next bit I have to learn or work out? Because there was a similar one I thought that was the same where the nation was like hooked was the lottery prediction because it happened, I think it was a ten minute or so show at the same time as the lottery so everyone knows when that's on. it was like, well, are we going to tune in and watch this guy predict the lottery? Did that when you look back on that, did that process comoming up with that, getting it pitched And you well we're obviously not to talk about method. Do you go into channel four with a fully formed method and you go, that's what it is, or do you wait for them to be interested and go Now we're going to figure this all out. I think that would have been one of maybe like there were four specials that would come out in a little batch together. So we'd go to them and say these are the things. And again, I remember at the time that the lottery prediction was not going to be the idea wasn't to do it as this big stunt. It was just going to be another theme for four, you know there would be four hour specials, One of them would be about the lottery that it then became a much bigger. which actually ended up causing own its own problems and kind of ended up, I think in my mind tripped over itself a bit because of that because you just weren't expecting it to attract as much attention as it did U essentially we so the Wednesday was the lottery day And that's when we did this live thing where it's predicted. And then there was going to be a show on the Friday The reveal show The reveal explaining how was done. And the point of the Friday show was going to be this Um, You know, if it was like an hour, an hour or so or a bit less than an hour, showing this really wonderful fun method And then then at the end, this big sort of rug pull of going, well it could have been that because it was a fishy method, but nonetheless you know, a fooling and like There was a set where essentially these other people had been through this sort of wisdom of crowds, logic had been, a room of people had been able to intue what the numbers were, and they were getting it better and better every week. and it was just wonderful. Anyway, youd see all that come to some culmination and then it would be, well it could have been that, or maybe I just fixed it. But if I just fixed it then I'd have known what those numbers. I could have known what those numbers would have been a year ago. And then we have this extraordinary thing a year ago at Christmas, we're in Ron Regent Street on top of a bus with a bunch of kids who are out there somewhere who will remember this. I know it happened picking lottery balls out of a sack and holding them up. And this is clearly ye months and months before and it really was Christmas and it's the lottery numbers that are going to come up however many months later on that night. And that was the ending of the show. But what happened was we did the prediction on Wednesday. and I think it was the problem was, so it was Everybody seemed to watch the thing and then becausecause the BBC is, you know government and it ended up being came up in Prime Minister' Question time and something like that. It just became there was way too much heat on it. for what was for us as a fun sort of magic trick and then On this Thursday, we're sort of finishing off editing What will be the yeah, Friday show and then I just remember I had to call it in the end of if we put this show out that says I fixed it, we're going to create so much trouble for ourselves, so much for the lottery and the lottery and everybody and for us and it could just be But we have to put the show out because you know, there's an hour of Channel four that needs the show So I had to call it, we just we have to take the rug pull out the way And just so now when you watch that show, it is just the fishy explanation. That's kind of fine. but You've waited a couple of days to find out how Darren Brown really puted for that lottery, then you're been given an explanation that you don't really believe and then being left with that. And I think I think it's the only thing I've done that just feels like it's sort of slightly insulting people's intelligence. But that was never what the show was going to be. There was this whole other ending that we just had. So maybe one day we'll show it, show what the actual reveal was supposed to be. And I mean, we could talk about the TV, but I do think you've spoken about the TV shows as, you know, as they've come out. So and I think I'm conscious of time. So I'll quickly want to other books Okay so obviously're right But the interesting thing I think is that you write a book as your touring in Ju.. So how does that work? Ifave you So talk to me, like say, obviously we're in Birmingham today, you're here for How were you writing a book at the same time as performing tonight? and what's your day look like there? Oh it's a really lovely rhythm. and think I think if you I love writing like it's my it's my favorite thing to do, I think. And I think if you If you love it like that, you you sort of need to do it and if you're not doing it, you can get itchy and muggy and sort of and uncomfortable and E a bit depressed. So I think it's important to, you know know what these things are that you need. So for me some sort of creative engagement. And of course the show gives me that too. But the nice thing about writing is it's just you, right? There is no team. I mean Yeah when it's a book, there's marketing people over. But in terms of the creative side of it, it's just youuge so I really value it. And then you're on tour, which is great in the evenings. You could be anywhere during the day, sometimes somewh nice, sometimes somewhere not But maybe you've been on a tour for months a month. I mean you need something to do You need a thing to hold those days together that isn't taxing isn't tiring and just makes that home process lovely So I get up in the morning and go out and find I find the best coffee shops I can find that would do brunch where I can sit with my laptop, and I'll just spend the days writing. And I'd come out of that process, if I've had a good, you know writing, whatever, a few hours, feeling really good about myself, I then go off and do the show. And if I don't feel good about myself or I haven't managed do writing and I'm feeling a bit the then the show's great because it tootally clears all that up. And when you're sitting wring, do you give yourself a process of like some people say to finish halfway through a chapter so you can pick it up the next day or give yourself a p you just see how you feel on that day and just Yeah. the only thing I found useful is something Hemingway said sounds a bit grand, but I thought it was great of a right drunk Eedit sober So not that I write drunk, but it means just write b, whatever and back can edit it later. Don't be editing it as you're writing it, but just let yourself, you know write whatever and then work out what needs to be cut from that. I think that that's of all the writ good hice, I've come across that the one that st. Great.. We're going to start wrapping things up. too I want to ask you and this feel free I mean you don't have twenty For someone who's had such an amazing career and you've on the surface that you've done, you know, you do the books, you do TV, you do it seems like everything you want to do It's really interesting and I I just want to ask I sp, why do you still Do it. What's the driver that makes you go? I'm going to come up with a new show. I'm going to go on tour. I'm going to Do you We what's the driver behind that now U two things. I think one is I want to be doing something like writing. I want I need something to be doing because I can't just sit around. so I started taking a year off in between tours now. It's just tour every year. It it's hard if you're in a relationship. So I'm now taking a year off in between Uh, but I do get a bit A bit fidgety. You want to use the muscles like this? Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Al also it's not just doing the show, it's being on tour, being on the road and riding. All of those things I just love it. It's such a lovely lifestyle And the other the other thing is, again, if it's not self serving to say, but I think if you're good at something, it's It's important in life to something that you're good at and that you can you can go and do and feel like I'm doing this thing that I'm good at. becausecause again, in your personal life or your relationship, whatever, you're not the guy that's good at something. You're just someone that leaves their pants around or needs to, you know, sort out the dishwasher or whatever. So having the thing that you're good at and being able to go and do it, I think is a really helpful thing in life in terms of actually just the fulfillment of it. that is wonderful. I've never that' a lovely thought of it as yet. If you're good find have something in your life that you are good at. Yeah. And for most people that is their work. you know, you might You might be a bit dissatisfied at home, but when you walk into the workplace, you're the guy or the gl that does anything. and it's That's important to identify that in life if you can. And mentioned it briefly before and I've heard your workd before that you said you're not You said, you're not particularly ambitious, which I find baffling because you've done quite well for someone who's not Yeah, it iss true. I. Do you have any in your checklist? Do you have any goals left? in your head of going one day, I'm going to I wouldn't mind trying this or that or you just havey just more genuinely have never had any of The only thing I bizarrely, I when I was book writing today before coming here, I was writing exactly the sentence about this. I real I sort ofut it off I better go seeep Ben. But the only ambition I could ever identify in my life really was that I wanted to make a living as a magician, you know, many years ago. To me, that was just about, I don'm better to wake up in the morning when I want to and kind of just feel like I'm in charge of my own time. And if I don't want to go to work,, I don't have to and I can get go to bed when I just all. And that was it. And those things are very much in the moment. That's like, and I remember thinking this very consciously, if I take a cross section in my life Does it all look like my day to day life, how I wouldd like it to be? And that's all I've ever really thought about and And as you get older and as you sort of, you know, if your career does take off All those things that you're becoming do sort of become a little fixed because people then expect more and more of those things. And you can start to feel, you know what first of all felt like exciting a new identity then could can start to feel quite rigid. So actually you have to learn to find that feeling if you don't already have it and how to hang ont to it. are my days looking how I'd would like them to look. Yeah, is this all still where I want it to be? I think it's a very important thought. and that's the only one that's ever sustained me As part of that, I have a manager I've got people like Andrew that are very, you know grown up and driven in that whole TV production world. So If it wasn't for them, I'd you know just be swinging on of tyire, wanking in a cage probably. So that's the end of the episode. Thank. So I really you know, I owe a lot of that all of that probably those to those figures. but att the same time whether it's you know, a moment in the show that I'm thinking about or just what I want to do with the next six months of life, it is just what is What should what what? what should be happening in my life, what feels right and that Um But I've had that from the start. That's not just a privileged thing that comes out of working and earning and I've just had that from day one when I was a student and had no money but was just doing the the old magic gig. And it has led to a successful career, but I don't that's partly because of other people helping drive that. But I think it does I think it does work. and like I like the fact that whatever I do, whether it's book writing or TV on stage, it'll last a few months and then there'll be something else So there's a sense of just moving from one project to another. And I think that That's that's a nice, um That's a nice setup Thank you. and I'm really conscious to your voice because you' go out do here and do a show in a minute. So we are going finish things right up with my Fast five. It's Ben's Fast five. Ben's Fast five. Are you ready for my Fast five? Okay. Are you familiar with the film Highlander? Is that one? That was not the question. This is the set upp to the question. No I mean I've heard the fight. I like I've f it. It's an eighties film where it's about immortals. they chop other people's heads off. but when when one immortal kills another immortal, they get to steal the knowledge and expertise of that person. If you could steal the knowledge and expertise of anyone dead or alive, who'd it be Dicking your all Ason Who's a pianist? That's I can think of. I would love to be able to play the piano. so And he's my favorite pianist. Done. So I'd probably go here. fine. you've got it. Time capsule. Now this is a great question for you, Darren, because there's so much you could put in here. We're going to take one thing you've ever done. It can be an entire show, a project, a trick, a book, whatever you want. It goes in a time capsule. The rest of your work is Gone forever. Apocalypse straight away. I think that's my favorite the ones that I've done. And out of all the people that have taken part in the shows, I've generally kept in touch with almost all of them I think of years, but Stehen who did that. I've seen the most ofory the other week. and So Although I wouldn't presum to say that that show changed his life or turned it around, but it was it did me a lot and it has it was I think important in his trajectory of things. and It's just wonderful knowing him and seeing where his life's gone through his own efforts again, not not Yeah attributing that to the show, but all that's yeah, brilliant. And I'm very proud of the show that it was a really good fun Yeah. And that was the show where somebody thinks that there's a zombie apocalypse. they wake up, the world ended. We stage the end of the world for them they wake up in a yeah zombiefested post apocalyptic world and have to find their way back to their family. It's sort of the wizard of Oz Great, culture culture. What is the one thing, book, film, TV, anything you've seen or done recently that you'd like to share that you've loved I haven't done it recently But its sheer quality trumps that cartoon is the Ui bumbum train, which you must know? No. No Oh No Darren, what's this? All right, youi bum bum train I'll said again You me bum bum train, This is the trailer for the pod. Join me and Darren, you meum You me bum bum train. You're swarn to secrecy when you see it or do it The most astonishing theatrical What can you tell us about it? It's, I mean, a very inadequate word for it would be an immersive experience, but far beyond what that normally suggests And I really shouldn't tell you anything about it because the joy of going to it, not having a clue. They only seem to do it every few years takes place in, you know, some somewhere in London and then I don't even know how people find out about it Uh I think it'll always be the most extraordinary theatrical thing I've ever done. and I can't bring myself to go back So I've only done it once and it was incredible. That is such a mystery that you've just dropped on all of us. We're going, okay, what is this? We're all going to Google right now, Yumi bumbum Yum bumum S see you all there. And fourth it's penulttimate question I'm going to give you my magic wand, you probably might have your own somewhere. Yeah. With this magic wand, you can make anything vanish from the world of theatater, TV, entertainment. anythingthing you want. U I think I'd go back to that thing of um performers that make it about themselves, whether that's a magician or an actor or really anybody, I think it's just u Not that it matters that much in the grandscape of things. It show make and disappear. and I'm sure there are plenty of performers that make it all about themselves and do a really fucking great job with it and are phenomenal. For most me immortals somewhere in the middle Uh, I think it's it's a generally why a lot of things annoying, why like some actors are annoying, certainly why some magicians are annoying. They're just making it about themselves. I think everything in life gets better when you stop doing that. And so I probably yeah, that's what it comes to mind. I could get rid of a thing. And thank you. I'm going to ask you the final question. Hopefully it doesn't repeat this answer. We'll see. because Darren Brown, what is the trick to having a long and successful career you give one piece of advice. You can repeat something you've already said if you like There go, donon't make it about yourself. It has to be And I'm not saying that like I'm say, you know, whatever, but I think it's helpful and just try and do good work As in don't worry about the trajectory or whether what other people are doing or whether this worked out or that just a really trying a really good job with the thing that you're doing at the time. and that's all any of us can do. Oh yeah, fantastic Dbrgh. I've absolutely loved this. Thank you. It's been a real joy. Thankks over here So there we go. that was Dereren Brown. What an absolute legend. I think looking back on that, the thing that I was really interested about actually his answer of I said, why did you do this? And he said beinging good at something, it's good to have that in your life. I've not heard that kind of answer before, which was yeah, it's just nice to be good at a skill that you've worked at for decades and You know because he's not perfect in other parts of his life. I just thought that was a really interesting take on why he keeps going. Anyway, I'm going to shut up. Enjoy the rest of your week. Remember we have an episode every Friday, so hit subscribe. And if you've enjoyed this, do drop me a DM Ben Hanlin on Instagram and tellell me what you think If you know any Derren fans because there's a lot out there, send them this episode and they can give it a listen Anyway, I will see you next week for another episode of What's the Trick