Developing Characters and Writing Shows

I kind of, you know I had like a mini breakdown at one point. Just before I walked on the stage, I thought, whyy am I doing this Welcome back to What's the Trick. I am your host, Ben Hannan and this is the podcast where I sit down with the world's most creative people and try to understand their creative process. And today's guest is a world class vriloquist and a brit that went over to America and won America's got talent It is Paul Zerdin I really wanted to speak to him because I've admired his career for decades But I wanted to know, well, first of all, how do you do that? How dod you go over to America and win it? But what actually happens after you win a show like that? What is the reality? And he talkks me through it all. and he talked me through what happens when you have your own headline Vegas show and things don't always go to plan and what's in the contract. We go through it all. so I'm just going to bring you up to speed on Paul you havent heard about his career before. I'm just going to try and give you the highlights. It started off in about the nineties where he was a GMTV's children's show presenter on Rise and Shine. And then he won Jonathan Ross's ITV talent competition, the big, big talent show And then from there, he's become one of the busiest ventriloquists in the UK. He's been on the Rw Variety show, I think two or three times. He did almost everything you could achieve in the UK. And then he decided in twenty fifteen Let's give America a go. and he went on America's got talent and he won the thing So that's where we're going to start. I'm going to dive into this conversation. It's really, really different chat. Enjoy this one. It's what's the trick with Pan. Welcome to What's the trick, Paul Zrdin. Good morning question. How are you? Very good. First question, Paul How' do you win America's bought talent I actually had never thought about doing a talent show since I did a show years ago on ITV called The Big Big Talent Show, which I won mid nineties I then thought I wouldn't ever do a talent show yet. And I got so far sort of, you know, with my career, to a certain point in this country I then felt so u I't know frustrated, I couldn't get it further. I' done lots of pilots for my own show, lots of guest appearances over the years, constantly developing projects and shows with producers and production companies. and then you'd get to the stumbling block that was the commissioning editor. We like Paul but Anyway, so I was just so fed up. I just thought I'll go over to America and have a talent show and I will just give it a go. And with that was when you obviously signed up to that and you got this good career behind you. You know you've got the chops, the skills and we'll dive down into the acts. but Was there a goal in mind? Did you think at the end of this, I then want to be able to do X Y, Z Yeah, I wanted to get my own TV show basically, and I wanted to be able to have a bigger profile and do bigger gigs, bigger theaters. and you know, I just thought America was a much bigger market. so could filter home and it will help my career in the UK and abroad generally. I just thought, I'll just give it a go and see how it goes. And it went really well. Yeah, just a bit. and I really loved the process. And I did my first audition which was at the Dolby Theatre and Just before I walked on the stage, I thought, whyy am I doing this? I'm literally walking out, putting myself in a position and I've been doing this for twenty five years, so I've got a good career. Everything's fine I'm going to walk out in front of these judges And you can hear when you're backstage, you know, and you're waiting around. I got there. I had to be there at like seven o'cock in the morning. and then I was supposed to be, I think they were doing two or three shows in an afternoon and they kept on pushing me back and I ended up going on the last show And then in the last section, I think of the show So I didn't go on the stage until nine o'clock or nine thirty at night and I'd been there all day, and I literally had lost the will to live by that point and I didn't care. and I'd filmed a load of sort of B roll interviews and stuff But every so often you'd hear this And I go, o my God, it's like terrifying this sound and I just gave myself a bit of a talking to and just thought, go out and just do what you do. let's break it down then. So you applied to go on the show and unlike Britain got talent. The Americans' got talentents, it's basically five rounds and then there's another spot at the end, but let's focus on these five rounds Let's work out. I would really like to know how did you think about these acts? Did you go in there and say to the producers,, this is going to be at one, two, three, four five. Did you say the best or last? But if you do that, you might not get to the last. What was the thought process of all of that That's a really good question. and for the first spot, I just worked out what I was going to do And and just thought I'll do this and see what happens. Th then that went well And then I went back to do the what they called the Judgge's cuts, which is when I got a golden buzzer and around about that time I can't remember if it was before or after you're assigned a producer. So there's lots of producers, but there's one person looking after you and a few other acts and called Meg, in my case as she said, What would you do if you got to the finals? You know, tellell me what you would do. And so I just sort of wrote out roughly For the next bot I would do this, I'd finish on this bit probably finish on this bit. I'd have Sam coming alive. It's an electronic thing that I' do. That would be that bit. I'd then do my human dummy routine with maybe one of the judges Um and just I saw I kind of mapped it out roughly And they were she was really helpful and said, okay, Okay, that's great. I would probably do that first and then if you got to that next round, I would do that instead and just switch a couple of things around. And in your head were you say this is the thing I really wanted get into because I think I watch people on those shows and I always wondered this question How much of those five bits Fried tested, worked on for years versus Here's a new bit of putting for the show. U It was all based on tried and tested ye. so I was never going out on stage going, Oh my go, I have done this before I Y. I've seen people do that. I thought, wow, that takes some balls and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. I started one of my spots with a whole new bit, but I was going into a bit that I knew was absolutely solid U so there was never any, it was a calculated risk and all of it. I knew what I was going to do. I'd change things around to suit The, you know, the occasion, one of my really good friends and who helped me write as well He was a massive fan of Howard Stern who was who was the Simon Cowl character. Yeah in season ten. u and and he gave me some some extra lines about Howard Stern and and his his catchphrases and things of which I didn't know. I was a fan of Houseden, but I didn't know him as well as my mate field did And so I had little things like that, which we sort of customized. Yeah generally it was it was tried and tested. it was just tweaked to fit the show. And for those that people that haven't sat down and watched all of your spots back to back, can I can we just get a little listen of Sam I haven't not done the b? Yeah, can we just because I just I just love the Yeahah, go, give us how does Sam sound Well, at the moment I've got to be of a sore throat because I've been rehearsing the new material for the tour, but Um, Sam is u No Well we're here with Beden. in with a be You can't see this. If you're listening to this on the Apple pod or wherever it is, Paul's not moving his mouth, obviously. he's Ventriloquist. So any he started with Sam and then in other rounds, then you the way you made it different is you had things like like you said, an animatronic where you walk off and then people think the puppet is not going to move and then all of a sudden it comes to life. So that's another surprise Then I mean, you did other things as well. thenen you did the mask thing where you put a mask on Howie and you made him the human puppet. So it was quite nice that in every stage there was almost another bit of theater that you were playing with in that for those five acts. Yeah. and because I'd been touring for a long time, U I'd always had different endings. And so I was able to use those different endings and into the end of each spot So I had somewhere to go. And so going from, you know the quarter fininals, live shows at the radio City then you know, you think, right, well what do you do after that? Well, then so from the ready control puit, then it was the human dummy. And then for the final It was a mixture of all of them we had radio controlled, Albert was radio controlled on a mobility scooter, which I'd used on my tour. So I knew that got a good reaction. It was a good visual with him and then I had the baby in the car seat. I think he was I had a car seat that was radio controlled so it could rock. It was a little I've got this friend called Tim Rose who is Admiral Acabar in Star Wars. Ls of other characters and muppets and movies and stuff, he's done everything and he's do all my radio controlled stuff over the years, animatronic stuff And I said to him a few years ago, I said, I want the baby to come alive with this whole big number, which is where Albert on his m scooter came in and Sam comes alive. and we did this big song at the end of the show bay would start rocking and then give it jazz hands as well. Yeah Yeah the size of the car seat And he literally just he figured out a way of having this little this kind of steel rod that poked out of the bottom of the car seat and just rocked it, just pushed it and it just started rocking. and it just had a natural de It was soad. You know what? I was looking this is how sad I am. Everyone's watching the act. I'm going How is this thing rocking Is it on a wire? Is it on some sort of ball that's moving? And no, it's just a rod pointing down time. Anyway, really sadust the rocket. I look That's the magician and the, you know, Yeah, there's well why we're doing this thing. So do you know it's bombpof? You've worked it a thousand times and then producers often get involved and start changing it. And you're like, well, hold on, I know this works. Yeah. How much was there a push and a pull from producers to change your act U For me, I have to say I I had a really easy ride because I was able to show them of me doing routines before I got to do it on the show. I'd say, Oh, this is the routine that I'm talking about. I'd send them the script so that they had to get approval from NVC lawyers and all of that sort of stuff. M sure it wasn't too rude And I was a bit naughty on the show so they were always checking but I would send them a tape or a tape, a DVD or you know an MPEG or whatever. I'd send it over and they'd go, oh yeah, we got it. So they understood what I was talking about and that helped enormously But I think I was I think they knew that I kind of knew what I was doing and I wasn't like I wasn't y I wasn't u you know, overly confident, but I was confident. and I'd been doing it for a long time. so you know, I knew what I did was going to work or I believed it would. You never know going out in front of a lot of judges, someone might not like you and just, Oh, I don't like you and pzz you or something. I had also had experience from performing for American audiences a lot over the years on cruise ships. So I knew that the material worked And I suppose as well, if you're a producer, you're dealing with these hundred of acts that are coming in and out and there's lots of craziness. Having an act that you don't have to do anything with just be like, you know what? That's in a box. Yeah, he's not a headache. I'll deal with one of my other problems on my list. It make their life a lot easier. D Deinitely yeah. And I I had a great producer and she just said, I think that's great. that what you're going to do there? I think that'll be really good. She might just say, Oh that one's a bit naght, The lawyers are a bit funny about that Can you cut Sam off when he's about to say that word? And so there are a few things like that because it was a live show as well, they were slightly terrified that anyone would say anything. But I have got friends that were on the British version and did not have such a good experience and were told, well, we want you to do this. And they were like, well I normally do this. Well we think you should do this and this will be much better And I and they were telling me that, you know, they kind of got you know, persuaded to do things that they weren't normally and youve heard about this with singers where they want to sing a song and then they've been told to sing a different song and the judges go, why, I' happen to li like that song in theight? And they don't say it live but it's your team that told me that anyway, Let's talk about because this is the biggest show probably in the world in entertainment It's live from radio City. And when you got to the live stages and they go, right next up, you're on. And as a performer, I'm already thinking about that already makes me a bit tight in my stomach of red light walking on stage How were you feeling at that moment And how did you deal with it? How did you keep And I remember the first showcase I ever did when I was like seventeen I'm And were there was a comp and there was a comedian and various other acts. And they were all pacing around and then someone said to me, A they're doing the showcase pace. Yeah, this always happens. And then I remember years later someone just I went on doing a TV spot, someone said Enjoy it Make sure you enjoy it Otherwise, you know, it's you're torturing yourself And I thought that's a really good bit of advice. And so just before I walked out on stage, first the first live show, the quarterinals at Radio City, I just thought, come on, just go out there and enjoy this. This is a massive moment There's a lot of people watching at home and in the theater, just go and do it. But I wanted to I have to say I loved it. I really loved the whole process of it. And I thought, wellow, this is what've you know, I've been doing this for at that point, I'd been doing it for about twenty five years. and I was lucky to do, you know, various TV spots and things over the years. I started as a kids TV presenter early on, so I did two years working at Disney and so I was very comfortable in front of a camera. And I was very, you know, I felt very I felt comfortable with my material. but you know, it could have gone wrong. someomeone could have buzzed me. mean literally just on one of the live shows. I just wanted to get to the finals. Yeah, But but you there was a lot of camaraderie And so you were looking, you know, looking out for your fellow performers because you you wanted them all to do well. And when suddenly one of them gets buzzed and gets voted off You' like,a, hang on minute, wait, you never see them again, you know, That's a shock. Yeah. So it is an interesting question. When did when did you think that you were going to win this or when did you get indications of I've got a good I've got a chance here I didn't I didn't really I didn't really ever think about it. I just I knew I wanted to get to the finals because I would have more exposure. So u you're kind of prepared for everything and anything, but it wasn't until I got to the top I think it was in in the sort of top five. I was thinking, o, okay Or that's encouraging, they seem to like what I do I genuinely thought that they would vote for an American, especially when it was down to me and Um for of his name as Derry There's a comede well do you like show biz H's a question because I've seen you all bits on that year, but I haven't watched the whole series and be, don't beonest bonest here. be I want Honestly here. Why do you think you won? Be that year, you were the best contestant and what was it about your act or you that you think Everyone voted Um I honestly don't know. I think maybe people had seen enough singers I don't know. that there's something about the American Um sort of psyche, the Sesame Street I think that Everyone loves a puppet And Jim Henson is so sort of steeped in there you know, American history. Well around the world, you know, I think there's something about the Muppets and I think because I've always used those kind of puppet characters the soft figures, as they say in America I think Everyone loves a puppet and there's something, even though it's such an old fashioned art form in a way I was trying to and I' trying to do it in and have always tried to do it in a up to date, modern way There's something about that was I think people felt sort of comfortable with it. Can we just talk about that difference for a moment, actually because again, I've been watching a lot of your stuff at other Ventrila Cism over the last few days And again, for those that maybe haven't seen Paul's work, your puppets are very much like muppets, so soft, spongy cute and cuddly, right? Yeah. But when people think of a truth is they think of that old almost wooden doll thing that JyP creepy. And you did a spot with Terry Vader, I think it was next to esssentially that puppet Yeah. And I remember going If that was in my bedroom at night and I woke up, it would and be terrified. And I don't know if's a thing if I'm like I don't want it freaks me out. Th are just not viibing there and yours are so much is almost a totally different tone to it, almost. It hasn't helped over the years that they've always been depicted as like psycho killers in movies and and that's dram mo. Yeah, I think that thing is gonna to move when I'm not looking at it. Yeah. Yeah so I knew that it had to be something mppeti. Okay, so yeah. I tell you what then support So you win the show, you are the winner and you get two prizes and on America's B talent, you win a million dollars and you win a headline show in Vegas. So let's start with the money because Some people might not realize this. There's a bit of controversy about Do you actually win a million dollars? So my question to you, if you're able to talk about it Did you win a million dollars U well, he can't talk about it. Well I want to talk about it. No, you know you can't talk about it. What do you mean? You can't talk about it? He signed an NDA Apparently I can't talk about it. You can't talk you signed an NDA Um, well I had a feeling you might say this. So they make you sign an NDA so you can't do it. So I As Chat GBT Do you win a million dollars? And it says two options. Option one is you do get your million dollars over forty years and they give you twenty five thousand dollars a year orr you can take a lump sum up frront and it's anywhere from to fifty to four hundred fifty, two hundred fifty thousand dollars to four hundred fifty thousand dollars in a lump sum, which I'm guessing most people would do. Are you able to confirm d I hit? I definitely did One of them Fine, You did one of them and I would imagine. but isn't it interesting You you're not allowed to commentments. Ill expect be I'm talking to myself right now. I just find it really interesting I do that li But Anyway, so that was the money side of it, right? Let's talk about the really interesting, the Vegas show. So what actually happens after you win? How do you then end up having your own Bega show? So you win the you win the show and then I NBC pressed person grabs hold of you and marches you around from studio to studio to interview to interview for the next sort of few days. and you end up doing these things called satellite media tours where you sit in a darkened room and you do I fifty interviews Literally every breakfast show in every state and then radio and all sorts of shows And it's a fantastic experience, but it is like a whirlwind. it really is. And then the that year the prize was three nights in in Vegas, a Planet Hollywood So About end I think probably a month later, I then do three nights where I'm headlining. And there's a couple of other acts from from AGZ from that season on as well During those three nights, so that was it. That's basically you get some money and then then you get the three nights in Vegas. During that run or the three nights shows, someone from Caesar's Enterertainment saw me and said, Hey, this guy should have his own show And look at like you're stuck. Exactly. And so I then I had already got I had commitments back home in the UK and So I then went back home to play buttons in Cinderella in Theataterre Royal Plymouth And during that Christmas I got an offer for a three year contract for Vegas Rather my own show headling a planet Hollywood I said o, that's really lovely, but I actually I don't want to be stuck in Vegas. I want to be doing I want to do a TV show. I want to do I want to I want to get my own she off the ground. I want to tour I live in London. you know, I'd love to go and do some shows in Vegas. I don't want to live in Vegas And then my then agent was saying, No, no, this is what you've worked for all your life. And I said, No, it isn't. I said, That's amazing Don't get me wrong. this is incredible. And the money was incredible I said, but I don't want to live in Vegas. I said, my parents live in London. I live in London. This is my family's there. So when somebody offers you a three year contract in Vegas, that's say, how many days of the year would that is that That's six six shows a week with possibility of adding more. wow. and then you know a week's holiday here and there. So you're pretty much full time living there. there's no doing anything else other than that right. Yeah, right. Now I had also just about I was about to agree a pantomime at the London Palladium, which was the first year back the palladium pantomime was a big thing years ago. Yeah. and then a producer called Michael Harrison to the palladium and they offered me buttons in Cinderellta, which was just my I'd done Cinderella for years years and years and pandamime, lotots of pandimes over the years. Every Christmal had done it U and so this was like they the ultimate. So I actually had to do that. So so so I agreed to do that. Th then I turning down this Vegas offer and eventually they warore me down because the money just kept going up When you say no, no, it's such a powerful word I've learned. Yeah. Even if you're not in a position to say no, sometimes it's good to say no because you know quite often they'll come back and say, all right, and offer you more money I didn't want to do it, but I talked to everyone they went, Oh, come on, you're going to have to do that. I said I don't want to live in the desert for three years with a two year option, so it could have been five years. Anyway, I if they offer you the five, you have to take it. No,. it was three years, but if if they had an option so they could continue it for another two years. But in theory and again, we're not going into detail because If you would have accepted that in one for three years, would that money have set you up that you would then not have to worry about money. L I mean it was I mean, it it was really good money. I mean, it was I think I probably would have still had to have worked. I like working. I can imagine I can't imagine not working, you know, I'm in a position now where I can pick and choose a bit. ye than I used to, but u yeah, definitely would have made things easier. Yeah. And u And so I agreed to it, but it was complicated because I already had a spring tool. um in in the diary and I had an awesome tour as well in the UK And in between this time, so straight away, I got signed to an agency called CAA in America, one of the biggest agents in the agencies in the world And then I was getting gigs So I would be asked to go out and do a casino in an Indian reservation in Canada or New York state or whatever. and they were paying amazing money. I'd go and do my hour and a half show. They'd have an interval in American shows, stand upp shows. you go straight through. m which I love that because sometimes it can when you're doing your show It breaks it. You h us about endings and intros and yeah. Where's this? You just do do your set, just get his gun with it. Yeah And I was doing lots of those coming backwards and fors and then then they agreed that I would do the show in Vegas And then when I was out doing a gig in Canada, I had this director. They said, Are you've been assigned as a director. are you going to direct your show? Oh, okay, so we're starting to write the Vegas show. whilst I'm going back and forth was doing show in America and Canada and still doing the spring tour dates in the UK. I then cancellled the autumn tour and I saw this sort of social media backlash happen. Like, Ohh yeah, that's great. You don't want us now do you now you've hit the big time in America and And it' like, No,s just it's an opportunity. What what would you do You know, and it that don't start you know, ye replying to people I've learned. Yeah on social media Anyway, we wrote the show when I say we, I mean me and my my writer friends And then I moved to Vegas. but I was kind of in disarray Be was I was actuallyally living out of the suitcase and I didn't really want to go and live in the desert for three years. Yeah. And then you got to try and find a house Yeah. Then you're like, well do I get a car, I have to rent a car. Well you know, no one helps you with that. You have to do all that. So you get yourself a realtor when you go to Vegas. That's an estate agent, a posh. So it was like a personal manager, estate agent. So you get this realtor who's then taking when I was back in doing some shows press in Vegas. I was then looking for accommodation. So I started the show and I was living in Panet Hollywood in one of their suites for the first few weeks. Was that cool or did you go it was I mean, it was exciting, definitely, but it was also it was a bit weird. But hold on, you're headlining a show at Planet Hollywood. you're in the suite upstairs. Yeah, that's know it's cool. I know it sounds one day you'll look back at that. was pretty It was a crazy tie but I think because it was so so so busy and it was so everything was so sort of just frantic. You didn't have a moment to stop and think about it. And I hear people talk about, you know, when you know, boy bands. Yeah, you know, in at that peak of their their career and the height of their fame. they go through this and they look back and go, well, we we wouldn't have time to talk about it., you know, I'm not comparing myself to some sort of, you know, crazy boy band, but there were there are similarities because it was it was a whirlwind U'm And then I got into the show. and after a month of renting my house out in the UK and renting a house I signed for about nine months, the company then said, we're going to have to give you you're going to have to take a payment pay cut. And I remember going, sorry, what? Yeah, what? And then And then we ended up I had to get lawyers involved and it became a bit complicated really trying to work things out because I was like, well, hang on, I've just emigrated. I've just agreed to be here for three years and now you're offering me half the money that you've you've said and and I don't want to go into it because it's boring. Yeah, but it ended up being some of fraught with legal issues with lawyers and stuff. and that really marred the experience because I was enjoying doing the show The audiences were fantastic And I ran for about six months and then we finished in September I think you for September And I kind of had had enough to be honest. and it was it was it was I'd been to Vegas a lot over the years seeing show, seeing David Copperfield seeing so just today, you know, I loved Vegas. I never thought I never ever came away from Vegas going, I love to work there and live there. Yeah, because it's so intense and it's so hot the heat. What is the hardest thing to do in Vent chilqu was Well, I guess it's the hard letters like B's and P's, which again, your tongue creates the sound U which is u funny if I'm writing a routine the moment for my baby who's got a bumblebee outfit. He comes on as a bumblebee and the whole thing is about I don't want him to say the word bumblebee because I can't say it' difficult or he knows it's difficult. so he wants to say it. I keep on saying, Oh, I like your That's a lovely outfit, your bumblebee outfit. No, you can't im I don't want you saying Bumblebee, Bumblebee Does that sound right Did that sound okay? I can't sometimes I have to look in the mirror and just make sure my lips aren't moving. Yeah, but Bumblebe B and P would be hard to say, but again yous just' just just to sum up then. so it was 'm guessing is it The pay cut is due to the show probably not selling as many tickets. I guess I never saw the figures. They never showed me the figures. So we never had a bad house. I looked out and I did however many shows, a hundred shows, whatever it was out every night it was never I never looked at and go, o things have been thin. It was always a good house So so but I never got to see the figures And I remember saying to my agent in London saying, what should I not have seen some, you know, know what's going on? I was being paid a mutity fee, you know I'm And I agreed to take this paycut. and I just said, Well, I can't stay here're earning this money for this long. I can earn more than this doing going back out of my life before So I look back and go, it was an incredible experience. What they don't tell you is you are going to be doing promotion all the time for the show. So they would fly me out to LA. I'd do another satellite media tour. I'd sit in a darkened room with a cameraman. We'd do twenty five interviews on every breakfast show in the morning. We'd been there since like you know cameraman literally dropping off because he's so tired it's such an early start. So you'd be publicized then youre going flying over to New York to do the Today show on NBC to publicize the show again And you do all those shows when you when you win your show. So I felt like, oh, here I am again, you know, it's likem not bllisese, but but it's this constant beast that needs feeding. Yeah everyvery week is what are the tickets sales? What are the tickets sal? They they don't tell you, Oh this is the thing that happens. You go out and they take you out into the PR company that's looking after your show, takes you, drives you out into the desert into one of these big ticketing units which is, I don't know forty five minutes out of the desert where they sell all the tickets for the shows and you go in there and you take cakes with your show poster printed onto these these fairy cakes, Yeah, cupcakes And you do a spot for them in the office And then you sign posters and you're pushing your show So if they get a phone call, they they push Paul's . they've seen him. you've done it bit in their office. Oh my go, this guy's really funny. You got to go and see this show. It's called whatever. you know evenven when you win America's got Terr, you've just do music on the Yeah it out. It was like doing a really dodgy corporate. Yeah, or like an Edinburgh fringe giving out flyers. Yes, completely. And then and then I remember I was with one of my best friends, Chris, who came out from England, he came out to be my sort of he was like a PA and also additional puppeteer in the show And and he came with me on these like did his PR gigs And we would be at a taxi rank in just at the edge of the strip Vegas taxi major taxi rank and They said, you got to go and do a show for the changeover shift to all the taxi drivers, so they all see you And I literally was standing This is midday baking heat in a doing my act for about six bloes having their sandwiches because they' just finished their shift and they've been on since the morning and then the new shift are coming in and about to start there. air shift in the afternoon and I'm doing this show with flying again. And you've just won America's got talent. This is the bit though, and I'm thank you for sharing this because this bit area this is the bit we don't see. like we see this This side of showbiz where you're on the biggest show in the world. I' see. You're in Yeahah, so shiny, got Simon Calluever there. You're going to win a million dollars But actually the reality is You got toint put your face on some cupcakes and sell, sell, sell. and eventually it still might not work because I'm guessing without even knowing the figures, maybe the business side is the casino. or someone spent money, they shouldn't have spent money somewhere and through no fault of your own, the show doesn't doesn't exist. bizarre world, doesn't it? Yeah great It was hilarious. And those were the times that I really found You know, very I was like we were laughing about it because it was ye it's all you could do. It was so ridiculous, but you know, do not somebody would have driveven past there going That looks like the guy the vroer is from Oh it can't be here. No's on the spider room So I tell you, that whole experience and it sounds actually like you've got your priorities in order because you're like, you know what, it's not just about am I actually going to enjoy the next few years in my life When you look back at that whole experience What are the learnings that you've taken from that? So they brought forward the opening of the show in Vegas I don't know, mayaybe a month And I remember going, well, this really makes things you know tight, but they were they were really rushing it. And I should have just on should have just said no Be it's you know face on the show, isn't it? Yeah. I can't cope with this. I kind of, you know, I had like a mini breakdown at one point because it was just so stressful. I didn't know where I was. And also you're fighting jet lab constantly because you're literally on and off. long haul flights all the time, which sounds really glamorous And I love flying And I love and I love traveveling. I love this job because we get to travel all over the place and go to amazing places. I I literally was just completely frazzled And and it was like I' suddenly had like a burnout. space of a few months because it was so my diary was so ridiculous. And that what you explain there, I bet is absolutely replicated through actors or especially musicians, right? You hear that story of exactly that. The managers and the agents go, right he's gonna be there, there there there Did you see the Bruce Springsteeen biopic that came out recently It was it was a I don't think I did, but I'm aware of it. And it's all about, it's interesting actually. It's all about Bruce Sringsste wr in the Nebrka album Anyw And he was at the height of his fame. He's just going he was actually just before, I think, born in the USA But he was about to spurn up. But what was really interesting is a dynamic between him and his manager in that film. I don't know how true it is, but the manager basically seemed to keep him from all of the noise. And he was like, what do you need? Do you need more time? And he would fight all the battles Yeah. And it feels like in that moment If you'd have had somebody a bit moreore experience to go Yeah. what do you need for me? That person to shield all the noise. I was doing Celebrity Wh who wantants to be a Millionaire in Vegas, which was being filmed at Bally's casino in Vegas and U'm There was an issue and This is Ben. It's a short commercial break, but for regular listeners, as you'll know, it's not really a commercial break because haaven't got is sponsers But I did want to take a minute or so to give Paul a shout So this is Paul Zurdin, amazing ventural Chist. He's on tour in September and he's shut your mouth tour. so you can find all that information on PaulzZurdin. com and you can have a look at the dates and he's come to a town near you. So do have a look at that and you can follow him on Instagram as well. And speaking of following, like every other podcaster in the world, I am going to ask you Can you hit that subscribe button? That always helps. And if you want to give it a little five star rating, that's always lovely because we drop an episode every Friday And I always say, if you're new here, by the way, you are more than welcome. Come and let me know by DMing me on Instagram and saying hi. And you can also just drop a friend or somebody you think that might like this, who's maybe into comedy, that's another one. You might be into comedy or entertainment or creativity. You can drop them a message and get them to listen to this And thank you to all the messages for last week's episode, Mr. Darren Brown, which was a fantastic episode. So that's it from me this week. Enjoy the rest of the episode with Paul This is what's the trick with Paul arounded I had to send a script through and I hadn't had time to send it through because I had to get to the millionaire rehearsal, you had to rehearse the show before you then went out and did it. And my American agents phoning me and I'm in the middle of they're going through thehe millionaire rehearsal and they treat it like it's it's a show and you have to answer these questions. And Jonathan is ringing me saying, you need to be you need to be you need to talk to the agent the producer, send the scpt to I haven' sent the script to. I'm in the middle of. it was like a massive It's just a complete brain fart. I just literallyn't I couldn't cope. And I remember it was like, well, theyre you're going be off the show. They're going to take off the show. What'd you been thinking today? Wait I goes I'll have to call you back. I'm just recording it now. And I literally was going hi and just going into, you know, show mode and doing this thing. And then I had to get myself back on this show and it was those things were all going on at the same time. And It's nobody's sayingew' got brains. Yeah And you got this nice I just want to be funund it. Yes All all I want to be worried about is is it funny? you know, and I am I are these shows going work? And just all and you don't realize all the you know, the nonsense that goes on behind the scenes? Well, thank you for sharing that. Tell you with it. Who wants to be in America's version? How much money Where did you get to on the Lener? I can't remember I didn't I don't think I did brilliant. sounds you were stressed that day. was I was really stressed that day. Tell you what, lets let's talk about venting. I've never told anyone that story, by the way, that whole thing. I've never never really, you know lot to do to open up about it. So it's very refreshing. Well, thank you for sharing that and I think it's Sometimes it's good isn't it just to get behind that scene and go what Yeah what else is going on that we don't see? because we just see a guy on stage doing this thing U Well, thank you. Let's do work onnter quuiz then How do we do ventriloquism? How does somebody ask the most basic question because I've never asked this in my life, How do you talk without moving your mouth? How do you explain that H well the basics are you have to talk and try and keep your lips as still as possible When I was about I'd never seen a ventriloquist until I was in my teens. I I knew puppets and puppets. and that world, but I didn't know about ventrloquism and someone a friend a very, very dear friend of our family gave me a book on how to become a ventrloquist, written by R Re Allen, called Got Laggear and At about the same time, I saw him, Ray Allen It's the first time've seen a evental request doing a spot on the Paul Daniels show Now, I used to go and sit in the audience of the Paul Daniels show And so I was a massive fan. and then I was, you know, I was heavily into magic and about to leave school and become a professional magician And so I was still, you know, playing with puppets and stuff I was giving this book on how to be a vventricist and I sa Ray Allen do this spot with Lord Charles and he was absolutely perfect. I'd never see it. I was like, my God, this is like talk I've heard about this. donon't know anything about it. And he blew me away and I thought I'm going to learn how to do this because this is the best of both worlds. I can still be the star of the show. can be ering, I can still do my magic, I can do the comedy. this is everything Yeah. And I remember just practicing his from his book, he had lots of different exercises that you had to do vocal exercises and it was basically keeping your mouth still and your tongue too takes over the lips what the lips yes, it creates the sound that the lips make So you would have to do things like I do it in Lord Charles' voice U byy jove, yes. G Lord ises And he's not moving his lips by way when you're listening to. I fancy dish of fish beans and potatoes. That was one of the ones. I fancy dish of fish beans and potatoes. So it told you how to create the sound with your tongue hitting the back of your top teeth. Yeah. And then you had to then put it into practice and do these exercises. And then years later I had to coach a wonderful actor called Anntony Sher in a film with Robert Lindseay and it was a ventriloquist During the war who a Jewish ventroloist who has a dummy of Hitler who who who creates his act, he gets taken away. And it's a very dark comedy's a brilliant film called Gangghis Coe. I had to teach Anthonyhher to be a venturalist in the space of a few weeks. and I gave him some of Ray Allen's exercises from that book because it was they were so good. Well let's talk about you then. So coming up with a character. So you' got a few characters that you've had in your career though Well you guess we could one puppet. Yeah What starts for you? Does a voice start or does a character start and an image start and go, o, that's a funny look. I will now create a voice. Where's the starting point of the character was Sam was my first sort of big kind of my most well known character from fairly early on because I auditioned for for a TV show called Disney Club Disney Club said the producer said, Oh we really like what you do U we think your your talents would be better suited for a new show And um, whichich starting taking over the franchise from TVM it was GMTV. and the weekends, the the kids output is going to be produced by Disney So I auditioned with a puppet that I had had made that looked really like Ernie from Sesame Street. and he was called Gus and he was an American an American voice, an American character And I auditioned and they said, oh, we want we love him. He's a bit too mppety. Can you create something else? So I created Sam And so I literally got a My mum and dad's leedgic carving knife shaved these blocks of sponge foam that I bought and made this puppet, covered it with toel and put eyes on it and it became that was Sam basically. and I just looked at him and thought, Oh he needs to have a Hello Hello on Sam. It was quite posh then. So look I looked at the face and thought, what do you sound like Yeah. It doesn't always happen Um, that that was Sam's And then I had I thought I need to have an old man. I don't know why. I'd been to a ventricalis convention in America, and I'd seen some people have old men puppets. And I thought, o, that's good So I bought an off the pake old man puppet playing around and for, well, yes, yes, yees Okay Yah he helloes. And then had him rebuilt so he was sit completely original. Yeah and didn't like the looks a hadad and rebuilt by someone else. And then he became Albert that I have now, which is my old man character, whose voice is very similar to Lord Charles. as I've got older and my voice has got deeper, become he's become a bit more like Lord Charles. and there's a couple of gags that I do as a nod to Ray from because I got to know Ray towards the end of his life And Albert is here. He Oh God God here here. And he's kind of slightly sometimes he's a bit drunk Sometimes he's you know, he has sort of memory loss, he has selective, he's got sort of selective dementia. F.ight But it the look of the look of that puppet, I kind of thought, oh yeah, thatoice goes with it. but sometimes I'll find a voice and think, o what kind of face would suit that? Okay, so let's talk about writing a show. So you're about to go on tour towards the end of the year in Pool's Een, shut your mouth. Tickets are available now Thank you How did you sho you welcome? Is that's what we was say before we can leave that note How do you then start writing and instructing a show? Because the other thing as well is Vventridicacy is interesting and funny and amazing. tryrying to make that last for a longer period of time. You need different gear changes and is there narratives? How does that thought process very quickly fall into play? How do you do that Well, for years, when I started touring my own show and I supported lots of people on tours over the years, so I supported people like Brian Connelly Jeer Squady Years before that I supported Ronnie Corbett on tour Norman Wisdom. Wow I was just starting out. so I got to see some incredible artists and work with some really amazing performers and Some of them had a support act that did the first half they would do a bit at the top of the show, then the support act would do most of the first half and they would do the whole of the second half So I thought, oh, that's probably what I should do. Then Then the pandemic happened And, you know, business suddenly, you know, entertainment suffered everyone struggled, you know, in all walks of life, but entertainment particularly And so when it came back, I was due to have my friend supporting me on the tour and the bookings weren't that great And I said to him, I don't think I can afford you And he was fine because he was thought like actually, I to be honest, I wanted to do something else anyway. So he was gonna to do something else And so I did the tour myself. And actually the book bookings picked up but I ended up doing both halves of the show Yeah, so what does it look like then? How long is each hearth and how do you shape it, I suppose? So I would do it's about forty, forty five minutes in act one and about forty five minutes in act two really and I used to come out and just do a bit of warm up and literally destroy the front row. haveave a go at the audience and they seem to always love it when the puppet' having a go at people And sove I've kind of always sort of kept that U until the last until the last couple of tours, well I've got this character called Alistter Alistair Rimmer and he' he's a TV show. He got He went out for a boozey lunch, got drunk, was inappropriate with his co presenter and alive on air and got taken off and cancellled. That's his backstory. Yeah. I feel sorry for him because I know that he's talented and he means well. so I'm giving him a chance. So he introduces my show and he's radio controlled So he just appears on his own in a special just a little spotlight with him in a director's seat and he talks about his career and he's slightly bitter. It sort of seeps out, even though he's there just to introduce me. Yeah. So he's a bit self indulgent. so he does a bit of warm up, then he introduces me and and I come out and then I don't have to do a warm upp because he's done it for me even though it's me We't where youre at the moment with this. This is happening kind of fourth quarter A you Is it written? Are you writing it? you work with writers? How do you get a show together I'm Well, I started writing the show on the tour last year I had already work some of that material and then kind of new basic structure and I've always had the same kind of structure. I look at it like a chest of drawers So I just take the the drawer out and replace it with new jokes and new material. new routine. Quickly sum up that how structure It would be kind of Alister at the top, quick warm up thanen is Me Sam, big chunk chunk of the first half U my fox character And then the baby. And the baby's always good at closing act one. I don't know why it just seems to work really work. Yeah. So it's all different jokes, all different material, different routines, but that's the sort of structure. Then act two, I'll open again with Sam and we'll do something completely different, some sort of music thing. Yeah. Last year I did a sort of lip sync routine. I do a load of stuff. I've got a talalking Iice cream as well, which I talk about it is a dream sequence which I go into and And then I get my bodyguard Roger out and he does about ten minutes and talks about his his career in the military. He then talks about This year he's talking about his his role as the he's the in the King's Narcotics Operations Bureau. He's a KNOB And he talks about on the lookout for drugs and there's I won't give away too much, but he gets into trouble. Albert has always the last few tours has started to do magic. So the magic has crept back in in different ways. So a couple of years ago I had a zigzag lady box built for Albert and Albert put himself in it. He was radio controlled, so he was telling me what to do. and I was sawing him in ar. So to sum up then, you basically have this structure then, right of like you say these chest of drawers where you're like, right, okay so I know that's going to happen. I need a musical number, I need a magic trick for him. I really this that and that. And then all you now do is justill in fill in the gaps, I suppose. I made itah sound very easy. Yeah, yeah, they will make it sound easy But but that is that's kind of that's how way it just set placeates. Yeah,ah Definitely. and then working stuff in. Are you coming up with an idea of taking it to a comedy club or a night and just trying that bit and try wherever I am suumming things up a bit because we are going to start wrapping things up, but I suppose what I want to ask you is Be honest in and don't be modonest You've had an amazing career and you've been on all sorts of stages, all sorts of platforms, TV everything P almost everything you can imagine Why do you think you've been successful O ninetyine percent of the ventual. orr I don't know Mother sorry that's such a dull answer, isn't it? I really don't know. I love what I do And I love you know, kind of trying to trying to reinvent it And um, and I've I've changed and having to when you tour all the time you have to keep on, you know creating new material and evolving I'm I don't know, I think people people need to laugh comedy is so important and when I did magic, it was always Comedy magic evenven if it was doing an illusion, like levitating my sister at my school talent competition, doing the Harbin chair suspension It was still funny. There were funny bits. And so comedy is really important. Well Let's talk about that for a second. So I've seen you a magic convention. I know you play late night comedy shows, you can do family cruise ships. you can your act and this is a huge compliment And it's something I would love to be able to do. you can work anywhere. L you almost put you on a stage and it works. withith taxi rank, midday, Taga, strip. Yeah, you name it. L I'll do it. A variety shirt and any crowd and it seems like you can, which is amazing it's like bulletproof How do you do that, do you think? Is it comedy? Is it the comedy is universal? What's the thing that makes it work everywhere I h I honestly don't I honestly don't know. I think if you love what you do and you've, you know I believe in what you do. It sounds a bit wanky, you know, I think people will it'll come over and people I don't know. peopleople just people want to have a laugh. I mean, I remember gigs for the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. And you' literally in the desert and you're taking a piss out of, you know, some sergeant major or, you know, some high ranking officer making them into a dummy or. I don't know what it is. I I Grew up loving comedy Robin Williams you know Muppet shows, Sesame Street, comedy, puppets, I don't know, It's just a world that I love And it is like I've lived in a land of make believe, you know since I was a kid and you know I grew up but didn't really And I think I think people like that sort of escapism. Before we move into my fast five, ye, you've done a lot. Is there anything left on your bucket list? I I just want to do I just want to do good. No, I just want to do more more I want to do more better. I want to do you know, more and bigger gigs and just keep keep doing it. I did I was about to pilot a show in America. during that whole crazy time And so that's still something that I I would love to do Um, you know, I love doing I love it. I love going onto a TV set. Yeah studio. There's something really exciting, especially when it's a, you know, it's a shiny floor show there's something that really that gives me a buzz. So when I did do AGT and uh You know, those sort of shows. I love it. I grew up watching those shows and so when you're then on those shows you really you're in the you're in the telling. you feel like you're doing, you know, you you' like, wow, it's just there's something there's a buzz, there's an excitement world And it's really exciting. So if I go on this morning or I go on, you know, some whatever show it is to talk about the tour or whatever I get a real buzz from that. So I hope I can continue to do that And and people will come and, you know, paay to come and see my live tours because U because you know, it's such a's such a wonderful thing to be able to do. and I know that that does sound a bit Banky but but I I love it and I know that I'm really lucky Yeah. Well, you say you're lucky, you're also, you know, you're very you're extremely talented and you worked really hard And you don't stop, right? S he you're welcome. Are you ready for my fast five? Yeah, go for. All right, fast five. First of all, question number one, My Highlander question, A you familiar with the film Highlander? Yeah, I M it for a long time. Nobody else has either. so you find everyone else says the same. Right question in that film, immortals kill other immortals, they chop their heads off In doing so, they steal the expertise and the knowledge from that person. Yeah. You could steal anybody's expertise and skills deead or alive, who would it be David Assenborgh his knowledge of the natural world really is mind blowing Do you know who I thought I thought you'd say someone like David Copperfield or something? I love David Copperfield kind of got to know David Copford a little bit over the last few years Yeah and had a tour of his museum, which is I don't know if you've've not that been it. it is onene of the most incredible experiences ever. My wife Emma came with me and she said, I have never seen you be like a little boy in a magic shop. Yeah. And it was how I felt when I first went to Davenports as a kid. Yeah. It was incredible I love the natural world and because I travel and have traveled so much and get to go to some incredibleaces, especially when you're doing like troop skigs in the Iraqi desert and places that you wouldn't end up going. I just find anythingthing that Attenborough does find fascinating and I have a David Attenborgh puppet as well that I use on social media. He's called Little David and he goes around doing his Um his little travel. travel logs king about, you know, Flora Hon or whatever it is it sounds. he's he's u Yeah this here in the Goby Dert, we find we have the herermid craft It's a small whatever Anyway, you get the gist of it. So it's like a caricature of David. I can't do that voice as a ventrlla quiz though. H I have no. so he appears Without me So I am doing, you know, traditional puppeteering. I'm underneath or but beside the cam And he's in shot and I'm not. and he pops up and does these comedy travel logs. Time capsule you can only keep one routine, one bit, one project you've ever done into a time capsule and the rest of your work is incinerated and gone forever paul K Pint There's a routine that I wrote with my friend, Martin Beaumont And um I did it for a long time. I did it on television, I did it on a Rw Variety showow, I did it on the standup show and I did it. I kind of did it. I love doing it so much. I did it too much And it was when I have an argument with my puppet character Sam and I say, I don't need you. I can be funny without a puppet I can do my jokes and then I put him away and I'm trying to deliver my stand up and these jokes and the puppet is is hackling me. And I say, all right, okay, I can do this, right. My mother in law, you can't say that, why not? sexist. All right, okay. well, my grandmother agist. Yeah. David Copperfield, illusionist. Everything was an is Yeah. And it was it was this you know PC type routine, which I still do now occasionally, but I can change it up and just slot in different different people. you know, So David Asenberg, conservationist, you know and it's such a lovely bit nice do. I really love it. And I was doing it for an American crowd, a version of it the other week on the on the cruise ship and they loved it. And we wrote that routine about twenty five years ago and that is probably one of my favorite routines ever. Lvely. Right. It' in. the rest is gum. Culture culture, what have you seen, read, experienced lately that you loved that you want to share about? I've got a bit of a reputation with amongst my friends for not being able to sit and sit through a complete show. So if I go and see a musical Quite often, I'll leave an interval if I just get or Ill get bored. I don't know wh I' got a really short span of attention. But I saw recently I saw a production of brand new production, I believe, called The Karate Kid. It's a musical. based on the film. It was called The Carate. Yeah. I saw at Wimbledon Theatre a few weeks ago and it was absolutely brilliant. What wasas it? Yeah, the music, the choreography, the cast, they were amazing. And I didn't know really what to expect because I don't really remember seeing film or films as a kid. I wouldn't imagine no, I mean things up back to the future, you've got the spectacle of it. but yeah, there's not that much of a spectacle in Karid, but okay that's now on my rad. I absolutely loved it. Really interesting what you said about your attention span Um And I think, you know, I think with your act, it's quick. Your act is quick, there's no there's not much fat in it. And I'm kind of sim that I have a bad attention span, but I think asformers that makes us better because it's like just get on with the thing, especially as a magician, get on with it as quickly as you can. let's get to the point here. Yes. So I think that not having a great attention spans has probably helped you. in your own work, I would That's a good point. Well on you Okay my magic wand. I'm going to give you my magic wand. You can make anything vanish from the world of theatre vriloquism and whenateever you like to make it a better place. The self tape. Cool on So when you Go for a casting yeah whether it's for commercial part in something, whatever it is. doing a self tape at home. Bathon I much prefer the days when you would go into a studio and you would do an audition. Yeah. There's something about that connection. with the casting director, with the producer, the director, whatever, that you don't get when you're just in your room at home and you're trying to get the lighting right and you're trying to get the backdrop right. That whole process is torturous And I But also I can imagine like they're going to give you probably their hundred percent attention when you're in the room. When they were looking at you on a screen, they have you got their full energy and the tndition Yeah So I know it's efficient. It's a way of doing things and you know, the remote thing, like Zos, I can't bear doing Zooms, but you have to do them occasionally, but I get so bored. Yeah. And so I try not to do them if I can help it. And the self tape is the thing that I really. Well, the self tape has gone and it's vanished. It's done Final question entire show. Pulls in and is the trick to having a hugely global successful career. Lonry as a ventriloquist Bloody ho I think be funny, getet up there and be funny and don't piss about getet out there and just entertain them m and try and keep the material fresh Thank you very much There we go. Cheersfulul. So there you go. that was another episode of What's the trrick. Hope you enjoyed that one Again, a completely different conversation. and I suppose looking back on that one, what I take from it is when he entered America's Hot talalent He really knew his craft, he knew his act inside out back to front so he could deal with any of the occasions that they threw at him. and I always think that It's so simple isn't it that if you want be one of those big I suppose, overnight successes in America. It's that twenty years of work he's got behind those. He wasn't trying anything new. He was going in with all the stuff he tried and tested. It's really simple, but it just shows that it works. Anyway, you can go and find him on social media. And as always, drop me a message. Let me know what you think of this episode. If you haven't listened to Darren yet Go and listen to Darren Brown's episode next week. We'll be back with another episode next Friday of What's the trrick? Enjoy the rest of your week. Bye bye