Closing Thoughts and Book Promotion

This is a Global Player original podcast. I don't want to go back into the customs unit. I want to go back into the EU. I think it might take some persuading from the EU, but we've got a strong hand because of our military and intelligence expertise and because of what's happening on the other. Giving of the EU isn't a military b. I know, but it doesn't matter. I think that That's right. I mean, it's embarrassing where we're at the moment. We're holding the record. Larry the Cat will be welcoming in his seventh prime Mister. It's shameful, Ian Can I first apologise to all of those people who've been in touch to say how much they enjoyed Natasha Clark on the podcast on Thursday? You're a fucker actually, I can't believe I just started by swearing, but I have been chanlling Ted Heath, Edward Heath for the second section of or maybe the third section of the pod, becausecause arguably the year of my birth, nineteen seventy four was a worse year to live in than twenty twenty six. And you know he said he used the F word when he was describing conservative MPs Do you know the exact expression? yes He said They're either shits, bloody shits or fucking shits. Well, that's about the only thing I've ever agreed with him on. So we're going to talk about him later. We're going to obviously talk about all the labour shenanigans U and no doubt other things will rear their ugly heads as well. Alteration with Michael Gove, why we streeting made me feel different about myself. Seriously, he gave me a physical change. I had do that to me. I suddenly wasn't sick anymore, Ian. I got better immediately. whereere streeting spokeen Id just been slagging him off On the radio because he had abandoned the health seecretary role, and suddenly this epiphany, this cloud, we called out the elephant in the room, that I see and you don't That is. The Brexit shit Anyway, you wanted to keep it light, so let's talk about the Eurovision. Let's talk about Eurovision. Except these days, Eurovision is far from light, my friend What do you mean by that Wellian, five countries did boycott Eurovision. And do you know why? apparently in at least two of their cases, it was because they didn't want to risk having to host it next year if they won. Do you really believe that? I do believe that because it costs a shedload of money for the host broadcaster, which they can never get back. So I do genuinely believe that. When Bulgaria won on Saturday, I tweeted that there would be several dozen TV executives in Sfia sort of probably walking on the edge of a very high building next morning because they will not welcome this. Well, lucky that the Israeli lobby got in the way of Romania coming any higherraeli Well it's come on Let's just we've got to own it. I mean that was a second rate song. and as Graham Norton, by the way Graham Norton It talks more than me He needs to put a plug in it I thought so often as my teenager resident teenager said He needs to really stop talking about people's appearances You see I totally disagree with that. Wh You're an old man. You're an old gay man, Why are you not allowed to mention people's appearances nowadays? Well the young ones, I mean, it's predominantly a young contest with young contestants, isn't it? And I think he just was so sort of It's our key But that's the role of the commentator at Eurovision. That's what Terry Wogan always used to do. It's a tradition. Well, it might be a tradition, it might need An upscaling or an overhaul' make it boring then. I'm not saying you necessarily need to make it boring. You could just make it. Well how do you make it more interesting by not commenting on the costumes that people are wearing or their appearance. I think there's a way of doing it. Phaps if you had a woman hosting it No, I'm genuine. Perhaps it wouldn't feel quite so ick. Well, last year they had three women hosting it I'm not doing the commentary, but I know, but I'm talking about you know the British of that's have Stacy Dooley commentating. Maybe. It's just interesting that we talk all over the host speaking, they don't do that in other countries. You realize, don't you? For example, look the Romanian commentary is much more circumscribed and just slotted into the bits where it's you know meant to go. Yeah, but the two hosts this year were absolutely appalling. That's part of the jney. And he pointed that out that they were appalling. There was no chemistry between them whatsoever. The guy who was doing it looked as if he was from like nineteen eighty six with a medallion over his hairy chest. It's amazing how we've already started arguing again. you know one pod I've missed one will listen in the entire year of podding with Ian I had a malady last week. It was the second one actually How many have I missed Yeah, but you have an easier life than me of course. How do How do I have an easier life? Let's not unpack that. Anyway, back to your vision I thought Sweden was the best song and they came like near us at the bottom. And I mean our song, what an embarrassment that was. Yeah, but that's the interesting thing The cognitive dissonance between and I know you poopooed this, but between Israel spending a million pounds trying to make sure they can shore up their vote and they do it very effectively, despite as Graham Norton said, the mixed reception to Israel's success in he was choosing Israels carefully. The only time in the entire evening was when he chose Iss carefully. Y When the Israeli act came on I reckon that every single word that he uttered them was scripted in front of him and probably not by him which is ridiculous. It It wasn't actually a bad song. It wasn't a brilliant song, but it wasn't a bad song. But most of the songs in that contest were diabolically awful. I just think It probably deserves seven or eighth place rather than second. No, it didn't, Ian. Anyway, let's not go there. The bottom line is it's fascinating that Britain thinks it's not even worth putting He What wouldd you call an artist who's got record deal? There's a name for it? Well, an artist with a record deal. That one. They don't even think it's worth staging someone with a track record skim along the dregs and find some weird eccentric in a pink boy. I know if they put me in charge of choosing next year's entry, I know I could find somebody who would get us in the top five. to this disconnect, why Britain doesn't believe it's worth a nanosecond of effort to do reasonably well. We're not talking about winning. It does go back to the cost of hosting it the next year if you win. I don't believe that. Well it's true. I mean I do know a lot about your vision and I can absolutely assure you that that is the way BBC executives think So then why is Israel so keen on trying to win it? Be they very nearly did win it. because they want to win the sort of PR contest. and we I mean, bear in mind that I think wasn't it the case? I think I've got this the right way aroundound The general public voted for the Israeli song far more than the juries did I it was fairly well represented by the jury, but yeah, the general public pushed it right up But it's interesting, isn't it that Why do people have ten votes? It never used to be that way. Oh, they've brought it down. That's to do with the whole Israeli lobby that if you have block votes of twenty because up until last year you could vote twenty times. Is Yeah. I thought you knew whyy can't you just have one? we knew lot about? Mbe I know about it in the nineteen eighties and nineties, bututhority again Why can't we all just have one vote? I mean, that's what normal democracy is, isn't it? Well, I spent five votes on one song and five on another, do you want to guess Possibly Romania and Moldoa. Yeah well done. You you are the Greece and Cyprus of British Eururovision, aren't you? Thankt. I love the Moldovven song, We'vean Moldovver. It was all about the Romanian language. It spoke to me I almost want to write to him and say, wouldould you promote my Romanian GCSC campaign? I I did like the Romanian one. I put that number three in my top five didid have a slightly dodgy title though, Choke mee I asked Dan to translate choke me And he refused Actually then a Romanian follower told me how to translate it, but I'm not going to repeat it. The point is it was highly sexed and I think some of the Orthodox church in Romania is semi appalled by this raging sex song, but it did them f. It was a good song though, it was a good tune. And number three and actually countries like Bulgaria and Romania, you struggle? I think disproportionately with their public image, and it was great to see them do so well When I watched the Bulgarian song for the first time, I thought, well, I've never heard of sort of Indian influences on a Eurovision song, so it was quite innovative from that point of view. I did think it went on a bit. It was a bit boring in the constant repetition of whatever the word was, wasas it Bangoro or something? catching. When I heard it a second time and a third time, it got me more than it did the first. Do you think that we might be getting boring now about the Euroffici? It's very possible. Can I talk about? Not everyone watches it . So basically where did you meet him? I was too sick for you, but I managed to Yes, this was noted. I mean, talk about loyalty. had a temperature But I thought I can't do them both, so I will select the one that It' no better. I couldn' do both and I felt like catch shit. And anyway I didn't really have to perform very much. I as a turn up see World War I with Tom Hanks Fress night It's a twenty episode series premiering on sky history Guess how many episodes I appear in one I was asked if I would represent the series because I wasfford to fly Tom Hankson on the press night And I was like, o go on, then I'll do that. It'd been agreed a while back And so I walk in and I'm going to be sitting on the stage. with three men because it obviously there's a shortage of women when it comes to talking about World War II. And I walk down the little alleyway in the Imperial War Museum and I see some familiar historic male faces And one of them summons me over and he says You know, I didn't even get asked to be in the series And I looked at all these Men and I could feel their heat, the heat of their gaze and I knew that as I retreated up onto the stage, the gaze would not be any more forgiving. So I looked at them and I said, Well, boys, we all know Only here because I'm a woman And with that I span on my heel, walked onto the stage and wiped the floor with the other three male. I would call them panelists, but in that moment with a temperature, they were contestants So you had a good time, even though you were very, very ill. I was too ill to talk to you. ye. I was in bed with today. Had a nice chat with Natasha. No, it's good. We've got some nice comments actually U meanwhile I spent yesterday in the Tune I went to Newcastle to watch Newcastle versus West Ham via corporate entterertainment. I hate that bit. That last bit, I thought for a moment you were going be almost Andy Burnham authentic in a real old school football fest thrusting your Eururovision fist into the air pumping again I was thrusting my fist into the air quite often. I can tell you that Oh my Godd, it was awful. Well, don't ever accept. It's a great ground. Stt James's Park is a really wonderful ground th. By the way, Ian If So well healed that at the weekend he turned down a corporate gig in Manchester because it was too far to go to. Well no, it was in the middle of my forthcoming holiday and I thought no I'm not going The only thing I'll interrupt my holiday for is to record this podcast and I'm even contemplating not doing that. Well, especially if I fill any more sickies. I've suggested that Coreory and I could practice do the corporate gig for you Just let them know. How much do you know about housing? Oh, a lots. Almost as much as you do about the Eururovision It's it time for a break. I think it might be. Hello from me Crime journalist Andy Hughes. and one of the hosts of the Cime agents. This is true crime like you've never heard before. And I'm the XCOop Neil Bassu. Well, XCOop isn't really doing it justice, isn' it Nil? I mean, you did head up every major department in Europe's biggest police force, the mightighty Met. you're no slouch in the crime department yourself after twenty years as a investigative reporter and also as an undercover journalist. On this podcast, we tackle the major crime stories in the news like the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, as well as delving into some of the most famous cases in criminal history like The murder of Stephen Lawrence. Check out the crrime agents on Global Player, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts So it's been quite a week in the world of labour politics, hasn't it which obviously we didn't talk about on Thursday because you weren't here. Um It's quite difficult to predict what's going to happen. in Andy Burnham is sort of presenting himself as the labor Messiah who's coming to save them. But this sense of entitlement that he has to think, Oh well, I can just walk into a constituency and win it. I don't think he's going to win Well, I'm now hoping he doesn't. I actually not only was I well enough to talk to Tom Hanks, but I also found it within me to go to Times Radio to meet Michael Gove On Saturday, first time I've ever met Michael Gove. He's more of the conservative Jacobbreery Smog category than your kind of category. I think he's more establishment old school toory, isn't he Gove Gove? Well, he's not really when you look at his background. I think adopted from Aber Deen. Yeah, very Scottish. Gove, I think, was fairly enamoured with West Streeting. And I this was prior to West Streeting's announcement that same day that yes, guess what, leaving the EU has been a catastrophic make for Britain And I was still feeling very angry with Streeting for abandoning the NHS. the one department that's been a success story except for the resident Doctor Strike. We've seen waiting lists come down. He's been really effective on calling out misogyny in the NHS and a failure to understand which iss obviously the main problem woman's pay growowing waiting lists for women across the board disproportionately and where streeting absolutely nailed that on womomen's hour, who was amazing the other day. And I felt, how dare you Just because you think you might be in with a shower at number ten, you just you know rip up the rule book and leave your department. I don't think it was quite that simple. I think he well if Did you read his resignation letter because I' drift where do you know that whole paragraph reminded me of where there is discord may we bring harmony because it's where where there should be vision, there is vacuum, where there is Something that W Shakespeareian. Yeah And um I think I actually genuinely believe in that he's just totally lost confidence in Kiss Ama's ability to get them out of this My issue and I think maybe it just didn't happen quickly enough for me, was that kind of leaving office, slopping out of office. and then there was a kind of weird couple of days of waiting hands in his resignation letter, Thank God, he actually manages to, I think serve a political blinder later in the day on Saturday. And I found myself having this sort of epiphany, a moment where Finally, a bit like it's one thing your husband having an affair, but it's another him denying he's having always had the affair. And for me it's one thing leaving the EU, but the denial that goes on and you've spoken to this in the Labour Party particularly, where we know most of the remainers, pretending they're quite happy with you holding on to Brexit. If you remember I think I'm right in remembering this on Monday last week I said The problem with Kir Stahmer's speech last Monday was that he had no big announcement. It was all a rehash of things that he'd said this time last year. And I said, if he'd said, well we're now going to propose rejoining the EU, we wouldn't be talking about Kir Stahmer's future in the media. we would be talking about whether we should join the EU. And what are we going to do on the programme tonight, Tessa We're going to be talking about that It's the first time though why it's really significant. Now I know we're streeting is not the favorite to win the Prime Ministerial chair We're going to see Burnham, I think win, I disagree with you. I think you'll win the by election in Greater Manchester We also think both of us that Angela Rayna will throw her hat into the ring West Streeting is in with a shout of stewarding the country, and he's the first politician in ten years since Brexit who's actually grasped the nettle. This has been bad for our country. Do you think it's because he genuinely believes it Or do you think that this is a tactical master stroke by West Streeting to put Andy Burnham on the spot? I think both. I think it's impossible to have been in government and to have not seen the damage that the wrecking Ball of Brexit has done. We know that Rachel Rs came out. She actually massaged the figures up as to the financial fallout, the cost of Brexit. And even you, I remember we did a clip and it went viral. Oh look, even the Brexiteer can't disabuse us of the fact we're all poorer because of Brexit. That's the reality What are you talking about? Yeah, we discussed it. We discussed it, and you said, Oh, even if we are a bit poorer, I mean, we are poorer Aan. Well we don't know that for a fact. you see? I mean you will say, oh we're four percent poorer, someomebody else will say we're eight percentoore, somebody else will say we're twelve percent pooorer. The fact is nobody can prove it either way. I mean I wasn't saying we weren necessarily poorer. I was saying I didn't vote on that basis and it didn't particularly bother me whether we would be a little bit pooorer or a little bit richer. Which spoke to your own personal circumstances. and it's always it doesn't speak to my personal circumstances. It speaks to the fact that I think Britain should be able to control its own laws. sadly which we now do.s actually no. just let me swig from my cola bottle with that really annoying plastic tag attached to it, a rule that we had absolutely no input over the implication or the input of. Let's not go down the Brexit rabber hole. I think started. Well, Wes Treatingad actually kicked it off on Saturday afternoon But don't you think though that if you look at the demographics of that constituency If Andy Burnham, I mean he's now of course on Saturday, he also said well, we need to look at this. But now we're going back into the years denied it now. Now he's denied it again. But we have a clip, which we're going to play on the program tonight of an interview he gave at the Labor confonference last year, where he absolutely made clear What his position was on the EU and it's very akin to yours. Yeah. That's what I say. So same minded members of the Labour Party you see back in the EU. You see this is where Andy Burnham has a real problem because he's flaky. He doesn't have an ideological grounding. He will be whatever you want him to be. And the reform voters in what's it called maacking or macaring? where the hell is it? Make a field. Make a field The reform voters in Makerfield ain't going to vote for a straw man who's posturing as a remainer. So he's going to have to dye himself light blue and say that he's all behind Brexit. and then exactly what was Hmstrung Starmer, the lines he established before he took office. So whether in the case ofon we're not budging on the single market or on the customs union, or on tax or on national insurance, etcetera will also then hamstring Andy, the ones in relation to the EU. where Streeting's got a free hand. The other corollary of this, of course, is that it makes Labour now the pro European Party and the Liberal Democrats are furious. So they're now putting down a motion, I think to be voted on a Wednesday. to sort of go back into a customs union. And they're challenging West Streeting to vote for that because they're saying if he doesn't, he's a hypocrite. I don't want to go back into the Gutins unit. I want to go back into the EU. I think it might take some persuading from the EU, but we've got a strong hand because of our military and intelligence expertise and because of what's happening on the a. Given that the EU isn't a military body. I know, but it doesn't matter. I think that That's right then No, but it's about the team leaning in the same direction. And I think Trump as the destabilizer means that the EU would be more receptive you according to something I read this morning is planning for a Nigel Farraage preremiership which says to me that they're not going to be particularly keen to do any sort of renegotiation in advance of the next election because they are counting on Farage winning it. and whatever Starmer or Streeting or Burnham agrees with them, Farage will go back on. Yeah, but all that'll happen is we'll go into the next election with ideally West Streeting offering the voters a remain ticket versus Farage offering a harder version of Brexit. That will be a very clear Brexit should happen, so it can't be any harder. H harder version. No, because What's the harder version? The reason why flocks, droves of leave voters doubled down and voted reform is they are not happy with the Brexit that's been delivered Most of them don't feel is strong enough? What is a harder version then? I don't know. Getting a gun off the coast of Calai. I mean, I don't know to deflate the dinghies. I don't know what a harder version of Brexit is, but if you ask most leave voters. Okay they're not Let me put this to you Do you think if Labour put it in their manifesto the next election That would be enough, or do you think there would have to be another referendum I think it would be enough to start a significant conversation. I don't believe it necessarily would We call for another referendum because we know how dangerous We don't like to listen to the people, do we. But what's interesting is we know that we've got restst of nationalists in three of the four British nations. and of course that would totally scpper all the kind of indie question comeome again indie question in Scotland. No wouldn't? Yes it would because they're promising that they need another referendum because of the changed circumstances because we've left the EU. fight for independence regardless of whether we're in the EU or not. And you know that. It's such a bloody basket case. Do you know that Denmark's oldest newspaper said that the prrime ministerial longevity of a small a dwarf hamster was longer than that of the British leader. I mean, it's embarrassing where we're at the moment. and you can say all this you know, encumbass un popular right across the continent We're holding the record. Larry the Cat will be welcoming in his seventh prrime Minister. It's shameful, Ian. It has happened before, though. I mean this podcast is called Where Politics Meets History. If you go back to the eight Yeah, if you go back to the sort of eighteen thirties, it happened. Oh great glory to hear that I mean I agree with you to an extent because I remember all the fund we used to have at the Italiian' expense when they would have a change of government every six months. so I don't Ncessarily I disagree with you. It doesn't look good. But when you have a shit Pime Minister, let's just get rid of them Two things, I was going to do a comparison with the revolving door that wasn't Noleon was and I thought, No, do you know what? We can't take our queue from nearly two hundred years ago. In fact, over two hundred years ago. That's why we're going to go back to nineteen seventy four because in some ways it's more informative and speaks more to our times I think there is believe that we're still catching up with this extraordinary national demise we've seen. If you look at seventy four this coming to terms of the loss of empire, P peopleople at the time said it's extraordinary how we've just sort of deflated from being an empire to just being Little Britain, and it hasn't really had any repercussions. and I would argue in fact, no, this Brexit, the changing prrime ministers, this desperately kind of The quest to find out what Britishness is today is part and parcel of that extraordinary shrinkage in the mid twentieth century. The entitlement of our identity hasn't gone, but the reality of being British has The diminished. beyond in a way that no other country in the modern era has seen an equivalent diminishment. No other country a diminution, not a diminishment? Is it really? Yeah. I totally disagree with you. I think you're talking absolute rubbish with that theory. because I remember when I first used to go to Germany as a teenager. And we were the laughing stock of Europe because of our industrial record, which had nothing to do with the loss of emmpire. U, but German English school books were absolutely dominated by the theme of Britain looking for a new role in the world because of loss of empire And I remember thinking to myself, well, this is a new one on me. This is not a subject that I've ever heard being discussed particularly. We're not obsessed by it and genuinely don't I mean, I was born sort of at the tail end of us giving away our colonies and ging them into independence a bit. Yes, that's what it was in. Really? Yes. Really But I don't And so I was probably the first generation to grow up not really having any great thoughts about empire didn't dominate the politics of the nineteen eighties at all. But think . entitlement of both our leadership and our electorate. idea of us being the first among equals in the Western world aside from America has informed the way we've played our political hand again And again, if we're going to come to Heath in a minute, but When we can look at him, as long as playing down the Unions and Northern Ireland, he was desperately clawing his way into What wasn't then the EU, It was a customs union, was it? wasas it sort of Well, it was a common market. a commonC. Yeah. you could argue qu a century later. You could argue kicking it. But you could argue that that was a huge mistake because Britain wasn't used to being part of a group of nations that pulled their sovereignty, it was used to being head of a group of nations I guess my case Well, no, I don't think it bolsters your case at all. I think it was because we didn't have the emmpire anymore, We thought, well, we'll throw a lot in with Europe But on economic, basis, not a political basis That, I think has been where the chasm has occurred because we were not told that it would develop into a political entity. And it's as clear as night follows day that that is its destination. It will be a United States of Europe. Well it not necessarily be United States it has to be. Political mandate is clear for all to see but's It was't at the time. Do you agree that Yes, but on the one hand, you've said you totally disagree with my thesis, which is we that our behaviour as a nation over the last fifty years, I correct myself, I said twenty five earlier, has been informed by our loss great British brand on the world stage. We're not natural team players because of this very recent heritage, I'm not blaming us. I think it's totally understandable. I think that's right. I agree that. So I've talked you aroundound. No, you haven't talked me around. I agree with that sentence that you just said. I don't agree with your initial thesis. So then we enter into this collect ive form of Trading, which becomes a form of governance, a macro style an European vision. But we only we didn't like that because we weren't expecting it to be a form of governance. We were expecting it to be a form of governance over trading relations, but that was it. And interesting that other European countries haven't had the same problem with the emergence of this political role. and I would say that is informed by this extraordinary empire which defined us until after the Second W. No the reason that they were quite happy to go down that road was because of the overhang of the Second World War. They just were obsessed with it not happening again in a way that we weren't as a nation because we weren't we weren't invaded. Some of us weren' teh Ted Heetath was very obsessed. Winston Churchill was obsessed withurch No, no, no, no, no. You see, if we're going to go into the history of Churchill on this, I would be prepared to lose the argument because if you're going to tell me that Churchill wanted a United States of Europe with Britain in it, you would be wholly wrong. But he understood the need for cooperation. Absolutely. I think it's nearly time for a break. I just want to finally say in terms of calling out the elephant in the room, which is what I felt West Streeting did. It was interesting. We had this discussion with Michael Gove I didn't give him hard a time of as I naturally would have done. pite him being the architect of Brexit because I knew he was the education secretary and I thought he might be able to help my Romanian GCSE hustle. But I mean, I couldn't get over it. She was asking him, the presenter Jane Mulcns, What do you think, Michael about, why we've had all these prime mininisters? Are we ungovernable? which is a sort of zyge question And'y question. He then said there's an inherent instability in our system. and he cited two reasons, one the way that parties can oouse their leaders and two the way in which party members can select the leaders And I was like, hang on a minute, Mate. We've been historically applauded for having a very stable system with exactly those two structures in place. The one thing that's changed is the Brexit? It's the big shit, the big B shit. You're obsessed. So it's Wes? Totally obsessed Nough Wars. I don't love worars. Do you fancy him a bit? No, I like him. He's a friend. Nickole Mickleb? No, I'm not going to go there despite how often you try and provoke me I almost fancy him now. Do you? Biteed his little chubby cheeks? I'm not having a threesome with you and him. No, no, no, no, no, because you've now completely ruined my train of thought cause you're thinking about wor just a final word on ungovernability because I don't believe. it's unusual for you want to do a bit of smartT, isn't it? It's okay when she wants to do smart. but whyrod do it? She goes on. Can we clip this p Sory Anyway, the reason why it appears that we are ungovernable is because politicians since the days of John Major foollowed through to the Tony Blair is, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, and the rest They have ceded political power to undemocratic Kangos and agencies So the politicians actually, though the electorate think that they have the responsibility for things, the politicians don't anymore. Don't worry because Andy Burnham's going to sort all that out by keeping it local, mate. Although you know my little brother's very successful in Scotland these days. when I look at the cost of devolution, if we make it ever more local, who pays for this multi layered governance That's what I want to know. Well, it'll be the likes of you A meeta, s in the south of England. Time for a break, please. The cash cows need a rest G on No let Kori speak the voice of God Hi Corei Diminishment is a word. Yes. It's an ugly word though. But I rolled over, you know the authority gap, Oh tall older male, I must be right What was it you tried to replace diminishment with Diminution. And what does that mean? The same as diminishment Does it really core Dxtion definition? Well, we've both rather learnt something So can we go into history briefly? Join them? The great year that I was born. What do you, when you think of nineteen seventy four, give me some time? I think of My m. At Waterloo, Napoleon did surrender. And I remember watching that live. from the dome in Brighton I didnt think The cond Swedish conductor came on just as Napoleon. it brought the house down Katie Boyle was the hostess of the whole evening. When I had an alteration with Michael Go over the weekend, I did think, you know, will I invite him to be my new podcast partner, just to raise you raise the intellectual bar. Talking of new podcastsers just to go off in a tangent because I know you love it when I doangent. last Tuesday Iike sent Jackie Smith a text saying can't imagine what's going through your head at the moment. If you ever want to have a chat, you know where I am Anyway She then texted back the next morning Are you free before six o'clock? nototking Fuck she's gonna resign. She came in to the studio at Millbank and we sat down So I said So What do you mean? so? I said, Were you resigning? No. What made you think I was going to resign? I said, Well, I couldn't think why on why on earth you'd want to have a chat. She said, No, I want you to start reading at my wedding. Which I did tell on the Thursday podcast by Charer because I kn you wouldn't have listened. Would chararge a friend for reading at a wedding? I know youanale I know you all too well No She' c it your expenses, it would be fine. God. Can we get back to that? I know she doesn't listen. Can we just get back to nineteen sevententy the history? Oh then. Everyone complains to me there's not enough history in the pod. Everyone does, ye. So other than Waterloo winning a Eurovision, some more defining character. Strikes. Yeah. coal miners Elect two elections. Other big problem? Jeremy Thorpe. That wouldn't be first on the top of my list. Although I thought you were going to say we didn't qualify England didn't qualify for the work. No, they didn't. Lost the ashes. but also five hundred dead in Northern Ireland, sort of mini civil war kicking off in Northern Ireland. Bloody Sunday, of course informing all that. Yeah, I know, but then the implications of that had, as we know, writes through today, deep roots. So he's got some real problems, Teddy Heath I was fascinated when I started doing some deep reading about him, just the similarities between heath, you know, that sort of nasal learnt voice. We always It wasn't nasal. We always mimic Thatcher for upscaling trrition element in her voice or the matriarchal element When Ted teeth did it before her Tories wanted to get a sort of new thinker in akin to Wilson or even if there were really ambitions at Kennedy. They don't want any more of these tweedy men from the Shires. If they vote for this Tory boy who's come from a working class Kent background, father was a carpenter, so many similarities with starmer. Mother was a lady's maid, sort of not quite making it. He was this very spoilt prodigy child, hasas a Kent accent which suddenly Miraculously, he loses at Oxford Cy lost his northern accent at Cambridge. We were talking about that earlier. What happened to Starmer's accent? Because the problem is, I think Star would have almost done better if he'd gone pososher because at the moment he just sounds robotic. Do you think the way in which you speak is really important Edward Heeth never really connected with the electorate, D he? Nobody really liked him? No, and he was a little bit similar to Starmer, you're absolutely right in character He was a was Yeah, he wasn't a warm man. He wasn't a leader. in the traditional meaning of the word, He had no small talk He didn't like women at all. If he was sat next to a woman at dinner, he would always talk to the man the other side of him. He' bloody rude. He was incredibly rude.though I met him a few times and I have to say he was perfectly charming. Oh, I wonder why that is gay, six foot five male back then with hair what you're suggesting that Ted Heath was gay. They didn't like women,m not No no well you just were by saying that I think he was asexual He may well, I've never met anyone who's fully asexual. I've met people who don't know how to takeake the fantasy and make it more than the vivid print of their imagination I don't know anyone who's asexual? I did a phone. I did a phone in on it once. It actually got a surprising number of calls. Well, we know there's in cells and all sorts of people are involuntarily. Yeah, well that's different. Yeah, but I'm saying that there are people who just are not interested in sex and I think he was one of them Okay, we probably had a lot on his plate. We know that he was committee meeting his way out of a financial crisis, Our productivity was low We had this extraordinary international diminishment that people pretend didn't have any impact. Northern Ireland had kicked off and the unions had him buy the short and curlies. First big strike in nineteen seventy two. What I didn't realise in the lead up to all this was that he kind of in economists and tried to sort of micromanage it and thought he could just sort of like a computer input, just sort of program what he wanted to happen and hit the shift bar and hopefully that would rejig the economy and everything would be okay He was absolutely against cutting any deals because he thought that was sort of ungentlemly played to the school rules or you didn't play by any rules at all And so he was the worst person possible deal with the the miners to deal with the Unionists The unions as opposed to unions. Unions Yes, I broadly agree with that. I think his major mistake was right early on. and this and this is how personality is really important here Ian McLeod, who was a real First last story thinkinker He was chancell of the Excheer after the election in nineteen seventeen and died within a month and Anthony Barber took over And then he reflated the economy. which led to quite high inflation And it was an absolute disaster And instead of continuing with the economic policies that heath had stood on in nineteen seventy, the so called Sales demand manifesto, very free market, very thatcherite actually He went back on all of it And I mean, if we talk about Kia Stalma doing U turns, well, that was the mother of all U turns. And that meant you were absolutely right that the unions felt that they were the ones that heold the power And there are a couple of decisive factors that occur in late ' seventy three. But just quickly before we go to them, Barbara. He has this kind of idea of a third stage where Wages have got to keep up with inflation which is a disaster when you've got a global economy that's overheating. and then along comes the Yonkapor War bef Yeah. And they had this policy of prices and incomes policy where they tryed to dictate to employers how much they could pay their workers I mean looking back on that now It's almost impossible to imagine how a government could implement that, but implement it. they tried to. as did Harold Wilson, as did Jim Callahghan. and it only stopped in nineteen seventy nine And I think that was really Barber set us out on this slippery slope of this sort of almost using the German idea of Mitbimmong the sort of the cooperation between employers, government and the unions this sort of tripararteite agreement that I say agreement, I'm not even sure if it was an agreement, but there was this sort of understand understanding is probably the best way of putting it And it was a recipe for disaster So we have this high inflationary model The Yonkapul Wall sees oil prices surge by seventy percent. It is automatically an impact of a twenty percent pay rise across the board in Britain. That's the impact of it. Prices leap up. And what you have are the Unions going, hang on a minute. You're paying the As seventy percent more for the oil and you're not gonna to pay us. And we fought as min as in World War one and World War two Gally to discern what acc you? Well One of the bigix of Northern and Scottish. Yeah, well, I wasn't quite sure. there was a big Scottish guy, but it wasn't Mick McGuy. Yeah, but he wasn't the dude that levelled apparently in a meeting with Heath and said, Wh is it? Yeah paying the Arab seventy percent for their oil. And they wasn't loyalty in World War one and World War two, Arguably actually they were, by the way, in World War one. But he says, and there we are and we've always did by and you can he give the equivalent pay rise or not equivalent, but they were asking for thirty five percent. The Calboard were going to come back with this renegotiated sixteen percent in the middle of which you have the Yonkerpul Bar And the result is Heath doesn't know how to respond to this accusation. What he could have said is Coal doesn't fire cars off He didn't, he just kind of looked Tongue tied and then Did up. another reshuffle or another U turn on having an election because he didn't have to go to the polls for another year No, but if he had gone to the polls three weeks earlier than he did, he would have probably won And why didn't again? I can't remember the reason why he delayed that decision. Well, because I mean the miners decided I think that they weren't going to play his game essentially And so he had this sort of who governs Britain title of this manifesto, I think And I think by that point and I remember this really well In that I was how old was I then? nineteen under nineteen seventy three I would have been twelve eleven and you just instinctively knew even at that age that we were in the deep shit. And that life was not supposed to be like this. and the power cuts, the three day week, the reduced speed limit on the motorways, sort having to have a huge supply of candles in the house because the lights weren't allowed to go on at a particular time. Television stopped at ten thirty. No advertising? No. I mean it really was like living in the dark ages Unless you were there, it's quite difficult to imagine how it was. And internationally We were a laughing thing. Absolutely. What's fascinating is he goes to the polls, the last time he addresses the nation, he says to them, do you want a strong government which has clear o no, sorry, let me. Do you want can you do an Edward Heath voice? I can do it well sort of an Edward Heath voice. and you always have to think when he laughs, the Mac ywward impression of him sort of shaking his shoulders with laughter And he had quite an imposing voice. It was an impressive voice It wasn't you described it earlier as nasal. It was the actual opposite of nasal. It was very deep and authoritative Well, it was a learnt voice along with his piano and his sailing habits, all quite aristocratic, although it was the first time I'd ever considered sailing aristocratic, but I suppose you need money to sail Isab it swallows and Amazons. But these were all metrics by which he clearly believed he was being judged in a Tory party that he despised, but he said, in a big resonant voice, never a nasal one, ladies and gentlemen, Do you want a strong government with clear authority for the future which will take the decisions that are needed? pitches themselves against the unions like literally the opposition in the general election are the unions. It's extraordinary ' the opposition of the Labour Party. That's absolutely right. And he was never going to win on that basis because people looked at him and they thought, ye, but you've given into the unions for the last three years. So why would we think it would be any different in the future? And that, going back to your original premise was at least part of the reason for the rise of Margca Thatcher was and I think we can also agree that He was served a terrible hand. All sorts of things were kicking off that were outside of his control, Northern Ireland, Yomkaport, etcetera But He had absolutely no EQ, no emotional intelligence. And I think that's what links him to, I would argue to Reresa May and also to Kir Stara. I agree with that prime ministers can't read the room. By the way, anybody that finds themselves in Salisbury do go to Arundel's, which was his house in Salisbury that he lived in for the rest of his life. Absolutely fascinating. Lots of heath memorabilia there, lots of sailing pictures s and also mementos presence he got from world leaders, Chairman Mao, for example So it's well worth a visit. But no pictures Right by the cathedral No picture. There's actually a picture of Margaret him with Margaret Thatcher on his grand piano, can you believe? whichich I was very surprised to see. Me too. I love the fact he wass hoisted by his own Patard and Patcha wins. it's so good that story. The story of history is always the best Right, we have a few questions here. This is Will in Mid Devon. Ian, I know this will be an awkward topic for you so I don't expect you to comment. But I listened to Jackie on Sheila's show defending Stalmer and dismissing Wz. As a loyal for the many listener, I know Jackie's real thoughts on Wez, and I thought to myself, the fact that Num ten had no shame in asking someone like Jackie Blair right wing of the party to attack another member of that wing shows their ineptness I make no criticism of Jackie at all, she's doing her job excellently as ever. We all still love you, Jackie. But she shouldn't have been put in that position Starmer's only skill in politics, it seems, is making enemies. And right now, I can't see how the Labour Party doesn't fall into factional division whichich leads me to my question. With last week's local elections showing how divided the labour voter base is between classic working class labour and leftfty middle class champagne socialist labour Is the breakup and dismantlement of labor as one political party inevitable That. is a very good point, I think And I think this this is what has deevil the Labour Party for many, many years. I'm not sure when I would date it back to But this idea that you've got this sort of Islington as he describes it Champagne socialist middle classes, or I would broaden it out to say London metropolitan middle classes who vote labour the expense of the traditional working class labour vote because I don't think that London metropolitan Labour has any understanding at all the working class vote in the rest of the country. It's interesting it's always posited that way around. I agree with you. I knew we were going to have Brexit and I realised David Cramer didn't because he wasn't connected to what was happening at the grassroots of society. But it's amazing that it's always levelled o the sort of Ururban masses don't understand the rural mass. No, they don't. And likewise the other way around The what But in a way, why should they Why should either side understand the other? But the fact is that you've got to a point now where the Labour MP that I was on Newsnight with last Monday, Jonathan Hinder Wh I got a bit exasperated with because he was all slagging off Starmer saying he needed to go. And When Victoria Derbyshire asked him, well who would you replace him with? he went all coy and said, Oh no, I want to hear what they've all got to say. And I said to him I'm sorry, that really doesn't cut it. And then he was on the todayoday programe this morning, I believe, slagging off West Streeting and Anty Burnham because of what they're saying on Brexit. And that would have gone down like a cup of cold sick with metropolitan labour MPs who will like you think that WS has done a brilliant thing here. Exactly I'm a classke example where I was furious actually with this whole mess, the status, the fact we don't get change. I just know in my own small campaigning way all the effort to try and get through to a minister, which loads of people are doing, whether it's on building or transport, in my case, education. Finally you reach the minister in question, but you don't know whether the whole thing's going to topple down tomorrow. There's a massive irony that we're calling for change, therefore we want rid of Stara when we know that there will be no change because there's this leadership turmoil for the next three months and history tells us that nothing gets done when a party is headless and in crisis. But I find myself So keen to own the mistake we made over Brexit, I will take three months of status if it means that we get a leader who's pro re entering Europe Just on Will's point about Jackie, that is part of the job. You have to go and bat on a sticky wickie and she's very good at that. at sort of effectively defending the indefensible. She's always being sent back The attack dog Well, it's not a attack dog, it's the defence dog. or the defense bitch, shouldall we say? No, we don't say that. At where Politics M's History on the Instagram Help, Hurry back Dr. Tessa, listening to Ian and Natasha discussing Angela Rayna as contender for PM. and I'm finding myself agreeing with Ian whichich I must say is very rare, but I do agree. Angel is a bit of a risk, but I think that's an issue with labour. They need to take that risk. Labour are losing more votes to the left than reform reform are picking up the usual non voters. I think Angela is exactly what Labour need I think it's going to be really interesting to see what Angela Rayna does because People around her are saying, Well, it's not definite that she'll stand. I think it's absolutely dead seirarch she will stand. Even if Andy Burnham stands, I think she'll stand And she is quite popular among the Labour grassroots. I think she's much cleverer than people give her credit for. It's because she's got this sort of working class Northern accent that people have a go at her I mean, John, my partner said Tell me she's not going to be our prrime mininister, he says she's as common as Mark.. And I'm thinking, Mate, you are from a working class background yourself. You may not speak like a working class person I mean that's but that it's also it's like Just as women can be the barrier to more women in politics, working class people can be the barrier to working class people at the top of politics. That's why we're so susceptible to the likes of Jacob Bcemogg, Boris Johnson. and I would even put Gove into that category because he speaks with this very Polish Scottish Bur, the idea of the educated classy man running and governing us. that again, it also speaks to the authority gap is, I think a historic problem that we've long lumbered under. This is a message from Andrew Pics Ss history at Hi, Tessa and Ian long long quest Listener here with a question for the pod. I'm twenty nine and ever since I've been able to vote We've had consecive conservative governments until now. As someone with more left leaning values, politics, always felt like my values were not represented by our government Do you feel that the current labour government realizes that for people like me are what we have been waiting for since we have become politically literate as teenagers I'm worried that right leaning parties always get the benefit of the doubt and are the nise and left leaning parties have a higher le in the standards of the public. this end up with another fourteen years of politicians I don't feel represented by. Well, it doesn't feel like that being on the right. I don't think right w governments get the benefit of the doubt. Iertainly had more conservative governments over the last c. Well that doesn't mean say they get the benefit of the doubt. I think we hold them to a less high bar while I was experiencing my malady, and I think before then actually, but it was overtaken by the local elections, etcetera Farrage was exposed for the rogue that he is. you know, the money that he was given that you gainfully believed was for his security. Actually we now all know that he just considered it a big fat thank you gif for gifting the nation Brexit There are questions that are asked of certain politicians that aren't levied And it's partly becauseas's onndress Aolute Bllocks. He's now being hauled up before the Parliamentary standandards Commissioner. So how does that mean that he's been given the benefit of the doubt? Finally, well you gave him the benefit of the doubt Yeah, I did lastast week. Yeah I arrest my case. And then because you weren't here on Thursday, yount might't have heard this because you didn't listen to the podcast It turns out that last September Nigel Farraage gave an interview to Nick Ferrari where he basically promoted Christopher Harbourne's cryptocurrency company Do that surprises you? Well it it rather does surprise me, if I'm honest, yes The things I know about Farage and his son that I'm not able to share on air. I mean nothing' surprised. You haven't shared that with me off hour either. I have shared it with your autor. Yes, but I wasn't alled to talk about it. Now we mustn't go over an hour because only old people listen to podcasts that are over h Why is it okay for you to be agist? Well it's very important I'm not allowed to comment on yourvision appearances. We have to hold ont to my little brother and he's a very busy man, now w't he won't listening anymore. No if he is listening, he shouldn't be. public sector employee It's a politician, a public servant no less. Yeah. he won't have time to listen. George has sent one in In fact, he sent this in two Sundays ago, so it's a bit out of date, but anyway, long time listener in fact from the beginning of F the Many. Eight years ago, that was, you know, eight years six hundred and twenty six episodes.ack on. Anyway. My question is, why have none of the cabinet moved against Starmmer? Well of course whys has now? He says I'm a conservative voter. However, in my opinion, Ws would be the best PM out of the runners and riders as he's able to cut through to ordinary people. talking I'm failing to understand how StAarMA looks at these results and concludes we must get closer to the EU. I realize this question may be out of date by the time you recall, well, it is a little bit But I think you do make a good point there. Because are Labour Party members going to vote for who they think will make the best Prime Minister M Wh is the most left wing or who will make the best Labour Party leader and I hope they vote For who will be the best Prime Minister? likeike the Conservatives didn't in twenty twenty two I hope they vote for the person who can win them back Green votes Conservative votes and liiberal Democrat votes. And as far as I'm concerned, there's only one person who can do that and it's where' streeting What are you going to do as soon as you come off here I'm going to vote for you Yeah, you are going to vote for me D you want to explain why? Because your book, Lest We Forget, has been nominated for Military Book of the Year. Military History Book of the Year Yeah I'm going to take the liberty of putting the link on our Pitics meetss History Instagram account. Well, I think you should also get Coreory to put it on the episode notes. Oh yes, the show link. That's a really good idea. And rather than leaving a hate fieed comment, you can vote for it. But do you realise that you're doing exactly what you accused Israel of doing in the Eurovision song contest? Yes, I'm lobbying for most. But I'm not a public sector evil Zionist you I'm not representing the Israeli state I'm simply exploiting my tiny platform. Well, I shouldall be voting for you momentarily. And I'm off out to polish off an article in which I'm going to celebrate my little brother's great success north of the border And I'm going to reflect on a lovely evening on Friday in West Cliff on Sa next to South End. Have you ever been to South End No It's actually the coastline there is I mean you drive along it and you think how can this be a labour constituency? I mean, it's really quite well to do. And we went to this I he's saying Labour constituencies always run down. Generally they are, yeah . Well, they're generally full of not particularly nice houses, but these are like I mean you just look at these houses and you think labour really? I live in a labour constituent. I know you do. Yes been in your house. you know, just because You know, I'm so over being surrounded by white tall and titled men who earn way more than me and cast aspversions on my more humble way of life. You know perfectly but I loved your house. I don't want to P your bedroy. Yeahah, you did come No this event, I was speaking to South End, East and Roford Conservatives being interviewed by Anna Furth, the former MP in South and West And it was in a casino And you sort of had to go downstairs and it was like what I imagine ari strip bar to look like It was quite an evening And sold and I sold five hundred pounds worth of book. Oh, no, that's the F line C. Exactly. Anyway, Do send an email question if you'd like to to where pololitics meets History at gllobal d. com or leave a question on the Instagram feed of the same name. Goodbye. This has been a Global Player original production