Voting Systems and Future Political Reform

This is a Global Player original podcast You want to believe the royal familyam are the exception. No, they are human like the rest of us. I mean I think we have to be very careful If we tear down some of the edifice, we need to be very careful that the rest doesn't fall almost immediately afterwards. I do think they are part of what makes this country Britain. I think we would lose an awful lot. You know're just saying the same things everyone else says. So I'm bored. I mean, literally you're boring me. I'm allowed to say that my podcast? C I just say that that cake that you've just provided me with was excellent I know. and now I want another piece but it's rude to talk with you, Magel. It is, it absolutely is. And did you like the Instagram video I sent you about this woman who goes back in time to Chzesku's time you know, you did send me two Instagram reels. I was busy trying to cram the nineteen seventy three isis What was going on in Cuba in relation to what did go on in Cuba, and also the last time there was a mass migrant exodus from Britain. So I'm just going to own it that I didn't have time to check out both Instagram reels. It' so disappointing because we could had a really interesting discussion because when I get something to do with Romania, I'd like to send it to you because I think you might be interesting. forgive me but I did watch the first one first one a fat middle aged white vanman ing to a Romanian tune. Ohes. Caption was when I think I can speak fluent Romanian. so forgive me for not clicking on the second one. No you're like the second one Have you I don't know whether this is just my algorithm, but have you seen or' got the Puerto Rico song on your Instagram There's this new song that has obviously gone completely viral purely because of Instagram and it's a really catchy song about Puerto Rico and everybody does their own little dance to it I haven't. That's lovely. I try to avoid viral memes on Instagram in the hours leading up to the pod because I'm so busy cramming Remaining Cosonnak, the aforementioned cake and like I say, trying to find stimulating nuggets of information because people nowadaysian don't just want entertained. That's what you go to Instagram for. fromrom a podcast they want to be in I think we do quite a good job of that. generally. Yeah, but you have to dig a bit. I mean, two hours a week, I can't just constantly skim along the surface of my knowledge. I have to add to my knowledge. Well, I do that for twelve hours ak on the radio No, that's that's you don't add to your knowledge when you're tw. I fly by the seat of my pants. Yeah, that''s that's the thing. That's what I I haven't found out yet Arguably, thoseose who don't listen find you out and those who do didn't. I'll have you know my audience figures gone up. And I have no doubt in your abilities. do people with your authority gap masculine voice and your six foot five persona, although that isn't so apparent on theio. Is that all? It used to be six foot two and a half but I've got shorter As we are going to be separated by a continent next week I'm not, by the way, one of the over nearly a quarter of a million Brits who is planning to leave these fcials. Although I would love to live in Romania, it's a marital. Can I just remind you that both Britain and Romania are in the same continent Not on the mainland though, are we? we still classed as Europe. Yeah, we are classed as Europe. but when I was talking about, I was thinking about the mainland, but we're going to come ont to migration statistics then and now because they're fascinating. and actually the similarities at the moment between Romania and Britain when it comes to migration. But as we're going to be separated because I'm away, may I share with you an anecdote? She's been gagging to tell me this anecdote, but she's refused to until we're doing the pod. So it better be a bloody good one. But you know, the thing is normally it's you that goes to important places and has drinky foods with important people. Not that they're particularly important, but I don't often go into what I call S embassy arena in Kensington, you know just down from the palace where all those really big posh buildings are. Basically what do ambassadors do? That's another existential crisis I have. It's one of the reasons why I'm heavily against Scottish independence S if said this You could be the Scottish ammbassador to Romania. But the point is I'd like to be an ammbassador. I can be diplomatic, believe it or not. Scotland would have to pay for an embassy in every single country. Can you imagine that wouldd be most of the nation's GDP? It's so expensive being a smaller national entity. It costs a fortune to maintain a team overseas Be they' got to look good, be stylish, have a handbag carrier, literally. So I have an appointment at the Romanian emmbassy prior to my visit over there next week And I go with my lovely friend the one I bid for in the raaffle your slave. Yeah No, not. who had a baby three weeks ago and it's the first time she's ever been to the Roman Ebassy. And It's a deal for her.'soman F first thing I'd say is their embassy next door to the Israeli embassy. So top security, men with guns, you name it. it's all a bit kind of fruity walking past. You feel like you're somewhere And she gets out of the Uber and puts on this incredible white pair of trousers that only a Romanian could wear, you know, kind of showy white tight on the bum and then a pair of gold stilettos. She a cheeky girl. N'ot not cheekyirl it' just ging bir You know, it's just that's an East European thing to look the park Whereas do you know me? I just look like a fallen out bed? Okay, I'm like, you don' really need to bother. It's fine. She goes I'm really anxious about taking my baby in Tessa, becausecause she didn't have child care. I'd just bring it with you. I want to be a husband so you can sit outs. Let me get this straight. You're going to see the Romanian ammbassador Th thenen you take a woman with a three week baby with you are you insane? About three She's about three months. She says She's going cry. I know Amida's going to cry in the in the Emberersye it's going to be so embarrassing. She's going to cry really worri about it. I said, Look, Georanna, we delivered a Westminster event two weeks after you gave birth with your baby. Wear that baby as a badger pride. You did this and you did that all at the same time You are spectacular. Own it. We enter with the baby and the baby will be fine. She's still worrying about it crying. She looks amazing. I would just be worried about the baby, you know, puking on my white trouers but no she was worri about the baby crying So in we go, we do all the lovely stuff, you know the glasses of water and the coffee, and in comes the ambassador in a powder blue coat. And then I'm trying to explain to the embassy that I can't move this Romanian GCSC forward without help. L structure, staff, money, dare I say, some kind of help from the Romanian state to move British wheels of power I'm trying to explain to them just how much time it's taken up. You know me and ever spontaneous I don't know how to happen. I just burst into tears. My God It's like I've met them before. I know them quite well But where we leave the meeting, Joonnath Tons Rnding goers I didn't need to worry about the baby crying. because you cried in the end. O did it have any effect Just actually before we came on out today. I've had an email through from the embassy. They set out three meetings for me, including theation Department of Education and Romania's Department of Tourism, and I'm hoping for the Department of Romanians everywhere I mean I didn't mean to cry, but I did need to underline the point is This has g on for months. I've never, I'm not a natural voluntearian And I've had a bit of enough now. Do that I sort of said to them, I'm not taking this any further without some kind of help And sometimes I know it's not something thing men can do, but you've got other things like deep voices. sometometimes tears. Oh I can turn the waterwks on if I have a mind to. Would you in an LBC meeting? Oh, I have done. Have you? I mean I haven' done it I haven't done it on purpose. I mean I don't I mean, I can make myself cry Do to know how I do that? Onions? No. Pinching. I think of the head on crash I had when I was twenty which nearly killed myself and my two sisters Okay and I can I mean I could do it now. No, No, I won't But I've never done that deliberately in a meeting or anything, but I just have a personality that means that water works come very easily, far too easily. Well I mean, think In that moment, did I worry about it? No? because I sort of slightly think they kind of own Georianna and I and our little team of volunteers. L that we've delivered something that they haven't delivered for thirty years. you know, big event and the kind of the optics around it So and if it's cost me emotionally and in terms of my marriage, you can imagine that's going down at home Ootest is just working upstairs for free for the Romainian state. You know, you can imagine it doesn't go down Husbands are married. We should be grateful given that he's Romanian And thates from. Do doesn't really work like We don't all have the same obsessions in life, do we? No we don't, that is very true. Yeah, actually, I can relate to that at home. Yeah. It just feels ne. So let me get this straight. You're going to South End this evening to speak to how many people and how much are you being paid Probably about fifty people and I'm not being paid. Why would you do that? Exactly. That is exactly what I go do on a daily basis. But in fact, Dan's not really speaking to me and neither' Mara because I've written a piece in the I News paper this weekend. And I sent them three political ideas It' for the sort of spread bit. and they didn't like any of the political ideas. They said, we're not really a political bit. Can we call you up? And then they call me up and they mind me? And of course, they want family stuff. People always want the family angle. The truth is, Ian In terms of journalism, AI can generate all the other stuff. What they want is your personal badge or experience that speaks to a bigger issue. Oh dear. so the other day when I was crying again at home and wasas that separate from the time you were crying on the phone to me And separate from the embassy. Yeah. Okay. Right A pattern is developing. So I was lamenting my stop startart career and Mara went I think you've done all al right for someone with a history degree And then later in a separate conversation, this is teenage wom She was looking at her A level subjects and she went it's just really important to avoid subjects that lead to a Yak yak degree I.. kids nowadays have to weaponise everything they've got because they know they're going to walk into sixty k of debt So you aren't going to waste your time doing Shakespeare or history, dare I say it? if you've got the propensity for a stTEem that's the rue. So so the article is centered around that. and I don't use Mara's name, but obviously I own H is my progeny And she's like, that's just as bad because everyone knows that I'm your daughter. S, may as well have said Mara? And I said, you wouldn' come up on a Google search. She said, But that's not the point Anyway, so you can imagine. S Mara stries me as a sort of person who will win any argument she starts. Yeah, she does because she's brighter than me. And then I also Duncan will be pleased th because he's a politician and they're all desperate for oxygen. but I also talk about my little brother in the artic. I don't know if you'll like what I've written, We'll see. Let's leave him hanging, will we? Oh, dear dear time for I haven't got any fluff. You've that like the whole section with your own fluff, apart from the fact that you do stink a bit. That is so unfair. Tell the listeners. Basically What you said to me when you the first thing she said com We arrived in the office. We should do a better trail for the pod. was I was doing an Instagram reel on the latest revelations concerning the late Queen and Prince Andrew, and I didn't like the cut of my jib in a pale shirt So I changed my shirt into one that I know is made of synthetics and it shows up armpits. And I also haven't had time because I've been busy researching on migration and Andrew to Bi deodrant. So the combination of A shirt made from oil and Nod deodrum Ased Ian, do you have any deodorant Which my answer was yes, but you're not using it because that's disgusting to use somebody else's deodorant. So instead, I'm sweating uck you can have a break. I'm keeping my role of mum to myself I've used that ever since I was a teenager. I don't like the spray on ones They irritate your skin someone with a deep authoritative voice if only you could be more manly I don't shave my armpets I think it's time for a cake break If if we have any listeners left after you've told them that we were going to talk about migration statistics, why are these statistics that come out today so interesting? I mean historically, Britain has always been a country of immigration and immigration. Obviously in the last ten years or so it's been predominantly a country of probably twenty years. twenty. Well maybe more than that a country of immigration. it's got to the point where So many people think it's gone too far that it's become a touchstone political issue. Massive, I would say it's the defining issue of our times or more than Brexit. Well, it's I think a side hustle of Brexit I think it's one of the leading features of Brexit. Brexit wrde the Commentague of migration to get in the numbers to vote against the EU. We know that. You might have had ideological reasons, but huge numbers of people vote against that giant wave of migrants that came in after the first ten accession countries under Tony Blair. He should have introduced some of the breaks other European countries did and we didn't Migration interestingly has been more people coming into Britain than leaving Britain since the nineteen eighties, almost consistently. Before then, which we'll come to in a minute, between the fifties and the eighties more people left Britain See, I have to say I didn't know that And I do find that quite surprising. Do you? I don't find it surprising in the immediate aftermath of the Second World War But I do find it surprising from the sixties going onwards that there was a net emigration. a massive net immigration. In fact, I was going to start the other way around and talk about today's statistics or come to them, but actually let's just stick with post World War I. in the years immediately after the war Guess how many people migrated from the United Kingdom I think I read this. so I'm not I'm not going to pretend to know, but I think I read two million. Yeah, two million whichich given we're a far smaller country at that time is a staggering number, plus we've lost quarter a million young men in the warall And we also lost sixty thousand in the blitz. So we're down some three hundred thousand already. And now we're hemorrhaging another two million predominantly young, young nuclear families. Huge numbers of couples get married immediately after the war. There's a record number of weddings, something like forty eight thousand couples, but they find they have to go and live with their parents. like it's so undignified. A million homes have been taken out by the Bitz You don't want to live in a country where the ration bg. Is that right? a million? Yes. Really. Yeah, damaged or taken accidentally. Yeah Every street looked like it had a sort of A missing tooth, if you imagine there's a sort of racket of toetoth. So this is a massive deal. Winston Churchill is panicking about it, along with the existentrial cris about Britain's place in the world. He actually makes an appeal on the BBC. I say to those that wish to leave our country Stay here and fight it out If we work together with brains and courage As we did in days, not long ago, we can make our country All our people Do not desert the old land Well, the reason Kistara hasn't done that because as someone, I can't remember who memorably once said est scholar is No Winston Churchill What's interesting if we now go to the present day, so you're quite right to say that migration has fallen. But net migration is still up. so there's still more people coming into Britain than leaving Britain. one hundred seventy thousand. seventy one thousand. Net migration is down But it's still net migration as opposed to net immigration. And it's down faster than they imagined. It's hugely down faster than people thought because only two years ago, I think the net figure close a million, I think nine hundred seventy thousand or something like And so to reduce by that amount in just two years quuite astonishing now If you are somebody who think we're already we're fullopian if you're that sort of person You think, o, this is great news. Well if we can do that in two years, we can get down to zero in the next two years. Doesn't quite work like that When you drill into the statistics, what sort of immigrants are we attracting and who are we repelling? And what's interesting is the number of British nationals that are leaving and thus pulling the net migration figure down Guess how many British nationals left in the last year four hundred thousand If that would extraordinary. That'sly half a million. two hundred and forty six thousand British nationals left. But is that partarticularly surprising? I mean, what would it have been ten years ago? Well, when you think only one hundred ten thousand British nationals arrived in the UK, that means one hundred thirty six thousand more Brits are leaving than arriving. That's sizable. and these are people these are trained, skilled individuals and they're calling it. So the reform Lw are calling it the stAmmer deficit The Liberal Party is saying it's because of Brexit. like every party's claiming it for their own. But what's interesting is what should be a victory day for the Labour Party we've got migration figures, net migration figures down actually qu a million Bits. These are kids we paid for. We weaned on the nipple of the state. We gave them free education, free school meals, We helped their mother back in the days when they were sureore start, for example. And now they've sugared off because you don't get overseas on a visa unless you've got prospects and a potential job Well, that's not quite true, is it? Because that figure will also include people who've just decided to go and retire to Spain and they are still doing that despite Brexit So I'd like to see the breakdown of those figures. Now I don't think that is a massive figure actually. I think in the globalized world, you're always going to get a slightly increasing number of people that depart for passastgures new. Um I mean, I'd like to know where they've gone, for example, sort of how many have indeed gone to Australia, New Zealand Canada America And also, how many of the people that have gone in the last five years have actually come back? What's interesting is you're right to speak to the fact it's not unprecedented. in fact, if you look in the last few years, approximately a quarter of a million people leave every year. but the equivalent numbers aren't returning So Britain isn't an attractive destination for Brits. They're not missing home when they leave. They're staying away and I think that's they believe all the negative publicity that there is about this country in terms of London being a war zone and all the JD Vance and Trump rhetoric about Britain being out of control and being dominated by immigrants. Or actually that it's just really expensive to live here and have a good time Well, you say that from somebody living in London and from that point of view, you're absolutely right But our cost of living actually is less than a lot of European countries. I challenge you on that. My statistics prove it. Okay, what country? In terms of food costs, for example just general sort of things that you need to exist, of the things that you'll buy in the supermarket are far cheaper here than in France, Belgium, Hoand and Germany. You say that was such authority and I've got used to you saying things like that male paritone voice. I can't quote you the statistics But that I mean, everywhere you read that you will find that. I'm not making it up. I concede that we've seen food inflation go through the roof right across Europe. I know that because I go to Romania and I was blinking supermet. It's more expensive to buy Spanish tomatoes in Spain. than it is buying Spanish tomatoes in Britain, which I can't get my head around that. Depending where you buy them me in, let's just clarify. Well, I'm not sure it is. Where did you get that fact from? A newspaper. I'm using the word fact loosely there by the his in Gental. Well, no,. Darling. Yes. I'm not going to sit here and make shit up just to try win an argument It's based on something I've read somewhere that has assimilated into my brain. But it's interesting. I don't think that they're staying away because they're thinking, oh gosh, JD Vance talks rudely about Britain. I think they're staying away because they clearly find the balance on balance, the lower rents, for example, housing costs, the energy costs are lower in other countries. Absolutely. And also that the climate might be better The roads less congested, that the atmosphere less negative. What's interesting is so in the wake of Second World War, why did people leave? It's really obvious why they live rationing, including food, fuel, furniture, clothing, New married couples, as I said, forced to share, or live in the cold, inadequate housing, etcetera. They outside toilets. Yeah, all sorts of things. but also interestingly There was an awareness a cognizance across the Western world, but not only The human resource, which is the workforce was in short supply post war, and countries like Canada and Australia were recruiting Britain reallyally aggressive My mom went over to Canada onn a ten pound ticket. D. Yeah. And then she lived in Argentina for a while and flirted with Sarah Ferguson's father, Major S.be he was a bit of a goer. He was, but she didn'tick thing. Wickmore Street forw these Imigration office Iow to say Prazies. I don't know, might need to cut that bit Immigration offices across the Commonwealth countries, they spring up in cities throughout the UK all pulling in and advertising their better housing, better employment opportunities, better standard of living. So effectively, what you're saying is that this phenomenon now, particularly of doctors and nurses going to Australia, it's nothing new. It's been going on for decades. But what's interesting is it's not been going on We're suddly seeing occur again and we've not even had a war. At least post nineteen forty five, we had the excuse of a war and also we'd pollinated the world in a way that meant There was incredible cultural capital to arrive somewhere and be British Countries New Zeand industry you had family, you had friends, you had the samelinger frranca, you felt at home And now It's It's a different type of person that's going. You're not just going on a ten pound ticket. You probably have to plan. Your journey in advance, know that you've got a shoutter, a job, a visa, etceter. This is more deliberate tunnelling out of Britain, I would suggest I think there is a certain truth to that. My auntie Jean, who is my father's sister Sorry She emigrated to New Zealand in about nineteen fifty nine. She'd married a New Zealander U had never travelled anywhere in the world, I don't think, before that and I've only ever met her three or four times since she came back She never came back to visit her mother until After her mother died in nineteen seventy nine and I don't know how many how many British women or men would have married New Zealanders or Australians, but that would have been a little bit of a phenomenon in those days, I guess, possibly more so than now. I was always aware growing up in Ranica Island Village, Scotland Tensely were all places in Britain which attracted migration. was always aware that large numbers of families had family members in countries like Australia, New Zealand, South Africa as well. interesterestingly In Canada, I've got a lot of family in Canada. Half a million Brits emigrated to Canada in the twenty five years after the war. Churchill gets so excited about it that five years later he says calls them rats leaving a sinking ship. whichich is extreme. Very odd. And then he does see fit to try of modify the language and let me find the quote actually when he speaks a little bit more warmly. while you're doing that. Yeah. I also just recalled I've got family who went to Australia in the twenties and thirties, who I looked up when I went to Australia in twenty ten I found out where they lived and turned up on their doorstep which was N an emotional experience actually. Becauseuse you think if those if they had stayed in Britain, They would' have been reasonably close relations who we would have had a lot to do with. and it was just really weird to meet them all for the first time. And this was when I discovered that one of their children had married a pinochet Oh, I think you told me that. Yeah. interestnteresting. No relation, apparently. which slightly destroys the story Well, know, but does a bit yeah cut that bit, forry. Anywayuckily luckily I've saved us with a churchill quote. Here it is He went on a visit in nineteen fifty two to Canada. where he then said a magnificent future awaits immigrants in Canada. A bit like when the Romanian president comes here and speaks nicely about migration. because what's interesting is that we here in Britain think this is such a victory to see falling migration levels coming into Britain actually aware of the numbers of people who have left countries in the East of Europe and it being seen as a national tragedy. on that side of the continent I think How long before we start also seeing this as a reflection on the state of our country? and how quickly will it be flipped the narrative? Well, if that quarter of a million figure say went up to four hundred thousand in the next five years That would have to speak for itself, wouldn't it Um I still think that this is one of the greatest countries to live in in the world. and yes, it's got its problems. hasasn't every country And I think we are in danger. entering a period, which I think we were in in the second half of the nineteen seventies, a period of sort of national malaise where we have no confidence in ourselves, that we've lost confidence in the political system, we see all sorts of problems in society that we don't know what to do about and the politicians fail us and therefore this feeling of national malaise just gets worse and worse. and I can see that happening over the next ten years And it's difficult to know what you do about it. Well, Well Streeting's got the answer, hasn't he L A joining the EU? Oh yeah, that'll solve everything Because all the EU countries the lands are flowing with milk and honey. Nice to have twenty seven friends. I think it's about to be twenty eight, Isn't Montenegro about to join need to check that. But I think the point is that freedom, the freedom we had to travel and live in other countries. And interestingly now, we don't have the same freedom and yet still people are leaving that they're putting the effort into work. And funny enough, they're going to live and work in those other countries as well I mean, it this fallacy that Brexit meant that people couldn't travel or couldn't go and live and work in other countries. Yes, it is more difficult. I'd completely concede that But it's not impossible And I think sometimes this is all a bit exaggerated. No, But if we now look to what extent are these migration figures going to feed into the national debate? Because what fascinates me is and I heard this in the to the local elections in the national elections, also in Wales, where they went, o our children can't even get a place in a primary school because of migration. That's rubbish because the numbers of children being born in this country has been falling consistently and notock been sufficiently replenished by migrants' children. So that's a fallacy. the number of schools has gone down as well. Yeah, but it hasn't trickled into the national consciousness. We still think all migrants are filling up our schools too quickly. So two things know aren't true at the same time. Well, they can be true. But they're true. I mean it's not true. I completely understand Whether it's true or not, that is the perception And I completely understand why when For example, when I go to the Charelsea Westminster Eye Hospital I would say ood eighty percent of the people in the waiting room there are clearly not from this country Now I've got no idea what proportion of them are actually British citizens or have leger right to stay or whatever But if you're an ordinary joe who doesn't do politics but just sort of obsves observes these sorts of things happening You have to understand why people have come to the conclusion hospital waiting lists are so high in part because of the numbers of people who've come to this country. And do they also make the leap and work out that the nurse, the doctor and the receptionist? No, they don't that are serving them are all they don't. I mean, thinking about that of all the people I see in that clinic, I would say fifty percent of the nurses and doctors ancillary staff Oh, from over in some. Just be assured, ladies and gentlemen, that his eighty percent anecdote of foreigners in the waiting room relative to the fifty percent of staff members who may be born overseas are one hundred percent anecdotal and Ian was having an eye operation may not have seem really. I'm not making it up. Wh't anecdotal doesn't ex Bother me that a lot of the people that there work there When I was in hospital two or three years ago, literally every nurse on the ward was from overseas and I had some really interesting conversations with them about about why they came here to work in the NHS and their lives. And there was one of them, I think she was from the Philippines, And she said that look, I'm having to pay four thousand four hundred pounds a month now to rent a one bedroom flat in Tunbridge Wells I don't think I can stay here much longer. I mean, anedotal, Tessa, but will obviously complete fiction. Well, if you do live in gold plated Tunbridge wells, I think it's time for a break So are you very excited by what's going on in the Labour Party at the moment? Because it seems as though for the short term, Star has got away with it We've got a very good question. I know we're not ont to the question, but I'm just going to read it out in relation to this very topic. Question to both, If Burnham wins the by election How long does he wait before launching his leadership bid Does he wait a few weeks or do it immediately after being sworn in? He's so arrogant and big headed, he'll probably just turn up at number ten with his removal fan. But to then win a leadership contest on the third attempt after implicitly suggesting the MPs aren't adequate. can't all be Starm's fault feels like a big ask. Thank you, says Katie This whole thing about Andy Bernham being King of the North so just effectively thinking he's got a right to be Prime Mister I think that could actually trip him up in a big, big way because it's really becoming a narrative now. you read in all sorts of publications right and left Who does he think he is And you had an instance yesterday. Why Christian Kalgi, who's a political journalist on the Daily Mail, admittedly quite a sort of upfront kind of guy He just happened to hear that Andy Berham was in the same cafe as he was because he hadd been trailing Nigl Farage around the constituency. So what would you do as a journalist in that situation? You would seek Andy Burnham out, wouldn't you Oh big mistake. Andy Burnham absolutely let ri at him and said how dare you you can't come in a place like this And so he of course has written it up in the Daily Mail today. And that this whole thing about sort people, he doesn't like being questioned about his various policy flip flops. And there was so many of them. He's a cocky little shit. My daughter wouldn't approve because he did a yak, yak degree. He went to Fitzwilliam College Camridge, where he studied Oh something yak yaky. English. Yeah. And he graduated with an MA to. We all graduate with an MA from O. The thing is, you have to really question What has Andy Burnham ever actually achieved? Now I would lifeife's great in Manchester. don't you know A apparently it's a Halsan city now that after his intervention. And I think he has achieved things in Manchester. Streets are paved with gold up. he's never done what most people would regard as a real job. And I think he started off as a researcher to Harriryet Harm and Ed Milliband, didnn't he? something like that? He's a career politician. He was Secretary of State for Health. He doesn't like being reminded that he was the only seecretary of State for Health that's ever privatised a hospital Um And I think he's got a pretty checkered record in politics and you can say, well he's done okay in Manchester. But doing okay in Manchester does not mean to say that you are going to be a good prrime Mister. He's a great salesman, a great marketer, but is there anything there beyond the ability to do that? I'm not sure there is. The grass is always greener. I very much see Andy Burnham as a showman and not even a particularly successful showman. and just to be going into the fray again having been rejected twice It gives this idea of an almost unbalanced ego that you haven't got the message madeate that you don't quite cut it for the leadership, not just of the Labour Party, but of the country. A by election is a unique opportunity for all those flaws to become readily apparent And if he starts getting a reputation as being a bit touchy and irritable, He's a bit like Nick Clag. I mean Nick Clagg I really like. When you do an interview with Nick Clg He's almost in a permanent sense of irritation Anty Bonen' a bit like that And I just wonder if the people of Makerfield are going to like that. I mean they look, he is a local guy. He was born, I think, within a few miles of the constituency. He still lives in the area So from that point of view, he ought to be a very good localish candidate. Everyone knows who he is, but that can come back to bite you as well. He's also abandoning his mayoral role Manchester, he's also fundamentally undermining not just the leadership of the Labour Party but the leadership of the country. What's interesting is all the optics around right now the governance of Britain, whether it's the GDP figures coming in higher than we expected zero point six growth, or these extraordinary falling migration figures actuallyct the government is delivering in a way that I think we've forgot. Which of them are actually going out of there and trumpeting this? they don't know they don't how to communicate. No they don't. that is the problem Now Wh streeting, I was actually rather disappointed by his resignation speech. It was certainly no Geffrey How resignation speech, was it U And I wonder whether he's sort of misjudged it now, and there's all sorts of rumors in the papers today that if Andy Burnham does win, he will then try and row in behind Andy Burnham and sort of demand a top job from Andy Burnham and won't run himself I don't think there should be if Andy Burnham does win, which I still doubt whether he will, but let's assume he does. I think for there to be an anti Burnham coronation, be a terrible thing both for the Labour Party and the country because he wouldn't have been tested in a leadership campaign And I think that somebody, whether it's W Streeting or Angela Rayna or whoever needs to put their name forward as well I would be really disappointed if we' Streeting Red in Bind Andy. He had a top job anyway. Is running the NHS not a big enough gig? Well I think the health seecretary job is the biggest job outside the top three. Sacred cow kind of job. And I just want to now, if we may touch on the other big issue of the day. and there is a connection here between the optics around the Labour Party and how we've ended up with all these mini wannabes trying to acquire the leadership of a party which is already being led, arguably not terribly effectively, but by a man who I think ultimately saw the nail driven into his coffin around the Mandelsen issue. Would you agree the ongoing drip, drip, drip of the Mandelsen affair was really the final straw for Kis Dahmer's credibility? And it should also be the next final straw because of course, they've now delayed publishing the rest of the documents that they promised would be coming, well, either last week or this week And Darren Jones, who I have a lot of time for, stood up in the House of Commons on was it Monday Tuesday. And said, well, we could publish them on Thursday, but we don't think that's right because then there's a parliamentary recess. So we'll wait toill June. and I'm thinking how convenient for Kir Stala? Because by all accounts these documents are going to be the final nail in his coffin. And of course there were other documents released just todayes on the former prrince thatand done. Yeah, I've been building to that. I sow the seed about Three min ago. What I find fascinating, by the way, before we go into what today's documents revealed, is the difference between the impact Mandelson's appointment and fallout through the Epstein case has had on governance in relation to the impact that Andrew has had on the wider institution of monarchy Very little at all. Walk on by King's never been more popular, despite the fact that we know the royal family absolutely bolted the door when it came to answering questions on Andrew and his affair with Epstein from twenty eleven in the publication of that photograph onwards. And now today we see yet more I wasn't aware that Andrew had an affair with Epstein. You know what I mean liaison relationship just an ongoing relationship with the revolting man Okay, so I now want to draw your attention if I may to the queen and the pearl clutching that's gone on today. We know, unsurprisingly enough, she pushed hard for Andrew to be appointed trade envoy She said she wanted her son to have a prominent role pushing the national interest. It was fitting a natural fit, in fact, it was referred to as because the Duke of Kent was about to resign and now the Duke of York could leave the Navy. God help us what would he have done if he wasn't given this sineicure, which is effectively what it was. a paid job where he didn't have to do anything. My role here is to push back a little bit on some of that It isn't a sign of cure, it is a job where you are promoting Britain overseas. I think it's not fair to say he didn't do anything. He went on a lot of trips. Go back to two thousand one, Andrew was reasonably respected at that point. He was a Falklands warar hero. He was reasonably well known throughout the world. What was there not to like about making him a trade envoy? I mean it made perfect sense That's what wass interesting. the Parl clutch that' going on today, but the fact, he wasn't vetted No no, no. he was preselected, ordained by God as the son of the fucking monarch when he was born in nineteen sixty. I mean, don't people understand that the royal family don't operate by different rules? don't operate by any real rules at all. Well, that's an exaggeration. It's not really Ian. What the quQeen wanted the queen got and you know it. By the way, Charles didn't want the appointment of his brother. He strongly campaigned against it. On what grounds? We just knew that Andrew was going to be dismal fit for a role to. What did he do in terms of that lobby? Is this is this come out in these do? No, I know that I know that from previous memos, and it's in the public domain that Charles strongly advised the Blair Gvernment. I think Mandelsom was implicated in the appointment, wasn't he? against the role Nobody's going to go against the wishes of the late quQeen. She was incredibly powerful in her quiet diminutive opposite of the authority gapway And I don't regard that as surprising. I don't even regard it as worrying. I think that if you're the quQeen, there are certain things that you have an entitlement to make your views on and for them to happen Yeah, and they did happen. What's interesting is we would have no clue about any of this were it not for a request having been tabled by a liberal Democrat. And that meant that they had to then go and find the relevant documents. And Chris Bryant, trrade seecretary, said, It has not been straightforward. Well know shit show a lot because it's very, very difficult to access documents on the Ral familyan. He's had a very interesting week because of course he was up with all the comments yesterday. trying to explain how we haven't really lifted any sanctions on Russian oil But we have really Yeah and When I saw this, I know I'm going off the subject a bit, but it's not like you. Be because it's Chris Bryant, I thought I would I'm I still can't quite get my head around this because the way Chris Bryant explained it was reasonably convincing. He said, Look, I haven't explained this properly. It's my fault, but hear me out, we haven't weakened the sanctions There was never any sanction on using refined oil in other countries, which everybody thought really, well there should have been then So he had slightly uncomfortable time but handled it really well in the comments yesterday. So to go from that to then this today He must think he's got the mark or something I know, but I think today he feels vindicated because actually it's very rare to get this level of documentation on a royal working in public capacity, those documents tend to be under lock and key. In fact, they shouldn't have been released until twenty sixty because Andrew's got special protection. What it speaks to, as I said again, is the different set of expectations we have regarding the rooyal familyam. We don't look to criticise them and unless they very publicly fail like Andrew, and look how we've cut him off like a sort of cancer or something we then don't want to or we find it easier not to interrogate the institution around the individual around Andrew. It's like I kind of walk on by. So here we have this exceptional case of an exceptional man who's been exceptionally bad But notice the lack of interrogation. Is there going to be any call for other royals to be veted? For example, like there has been Re the Mandelson case, where we've now changed the rules already regarding veting and appointments happening post vetting, not pre, that the same won't be applied to the royal family because it never is And you're not bothered, whichich is interesting. Well, I'm not hugely bothered in the sense that Um There's no point in having a royal family if they operate by exactly the same rules as the rest of us. And you can argue all you like and you'd be right that maybe that's wrong But I don't really want to go down the road of just making them like us Um I don't see any great scandal brewing with other members of the royal family. I just can't get particularly excited about it. Time for a break I thought you werere going to challenge me. No, because there it' be for believer a for atheist. I think in the longer term for our family to survive, they need to throw open the doors and we need to interrogate more more eff and we don't and won't. think A lot of doors have been thrown open over the last thirty years, far more than you would have anticipated. and it was mainly the death of Diana that I think led to that I think things will What do change? What do Nly what? can you give me one example? No. Thank you I rest my case because they haven't been in. It's a perception of reality. It's I believing immigration is a problem. I'm not sure it is. they throw the doors of Buckingham Palace open, which they we pay a fortune in for six weeks a year and no one lives in there so why isn't it open all year round No, they don't live there now they did Hardly and they've got a qu the queen Ver there for quite a bit. Very rarely in the latter years Sorry. You want to believe and I understand it, we need something to hold on to. You want to believe the rooyal family are the exception. No, they are human like the rest of us. I mean I don't regard the royal family in the way that people in North Korea are encouraged to regard Kim Jong un. I really don't. And I recognize that there are great weaknesses in the whole system. But I think we have to be very careful If we tear down some of the edifice, we need to be very careful that the restust doesn't fall almost immediately afterwards. And I I do think they are part of what makes this country Britain and without them I think we would lose an awful lot. You're just saying the same things as everyone else says, so I'm bored. so you go to a break please I mean literally, you're boring. I'm allow to say that my my podcast. Ian on the rooyal family bing with your f. playain when I do that. But I know you're not going say anything that everyone else of your ilk of a certain age is. It has nothing to do with age. It actually' so aggees. I'm not aging. It really areundred as well as being sojiers No They're not misogynist. I' not age Missindrers. I was' going to say Andrognous. Yeah, you we a bit anrogynist. Oh fuck you. I'm not actually, I've got slightly longer hair these days. I just want to point out that it is an age thing. If you look at the polling, young people are apathetic at best, old people lean into. But that's always been the case Okay, good. B. So let's answer a few questions, by the way, while we were just that break, Tessla was being agist yet again. No, what did I do that time? You said that I was a bit slow on my computer because I was old. Coreory, can you back me up that Ian's always slow dithering around looking for his questions on his computer, isn't it Oh seeee, Coreory knows which side is brereads but. Well, as you are waiting, Hi, hope you're feeling better. Thanks I am Rich. Question for the pod, what previous period in British history does today's political mood roast resemble? Well, Ian tried to steer us onto the Napoleonic wars last Jesus Christ. I spent most of last night looking into nineteen seventy three in the Yonkapor War and how we ended up having a seventy percent spike in oil prices And then I got pulled off onto Cuba. But I do think that that in the seventies there was a similar sense of national malaays. and we did have two elections in one year, for instance. I totally agree with that. That's how it feels to me. and I can remember that period, even though I was only a teenager. But just going back to the Napoleonic wars thing I read yesterday that when John Stuart Mill was in Parliament He was only there for four years. There were five prime mininisters in those four years. So it does show that Nothing is ever for the first This was before the Great Reform Act, before the enfranchisement of women and most men, but Ian still thinks that it's a worthy example attem. I do think it's a worthy example. I think we know that Often international chaos and war lead to serious domestic disturbance, revolution. I mean, just look across the continent, whether it's Spain, Italy, Russia, etca. But given that we're not actually at war Arguably Ukraine is fighting the war for us. It's a proxy war. We're not at war. We can blame Trump for shutting the strait of Hormz, but it doesn't explain the. I blame the Iranians for shutting the strait of Hormuse. I'm so sorry. Trump hasn't shut the straight ofruse. Trump went to war. Heiously the strait of Hormuse.ould' you admit that Of course, he hasn't, but we know his actions led just said caausation and effect. I' just correcting that. Okay. If you're going to be a nitpicker but everyone knows what I meant. But the point is that we are exceptionally affected, it would seem, by the current cost of fuel, etcetera. and it's impacting on our governance in a way that doesn't seem to be in other countries and that again, that's simply not true It's impacted far more in Asian countries than it has. I'm looking at comparative Western OECD countries. Why? Because if it's impacting mostly on Asian countries, which generally are not as developed as we are, we should have more concern about that. Yes we should, But if we're looking at Britain's exceptionalism, why are we exceptionally politically unstable despite a massive labour majority, we need to look for fundamental flaws within our pol The reason Labour Party is full of people who are incompetent Okay so it's just the Labour Partys. I said it's partly because I think there's some structural issues going on as well may well be, but I mean we don't have the political leaders capable of doing the things that are necessary to pull us out of this. Perhaps we don't encourage the appropriate sort of people to politically lead us. Let's go to the questions, darling you just did Yeah, okay, that was one. Well Okay. Can the next one beort of slum from Barry in air Yeah I area In intestine I listen to Ian's showow and catch up every day donon't always agree with you and as a sidebar, you are far from racist as accused because I was accused last night of being racist on my show. Anyway. But I agree England should have their own parliament Take all Scottish Welsh and Northern Irish MPs out of the commons. Grab the Lords and in the second chamber send equal representation from all four nations to deal with matters that affect the island as a whole I think it should be islands. True federalism is what this country now needs. Would this not kill nationalism and call for independence? So you'd have a second chamber with like fifty English, fifty Northern Irish, fifty Welsh and fifty Scottish. I don't think that would work, would it? But I suppose that iss the American model, isn't it? they have in the Senate two senators from each state no matter how large. I think one of the great problems, the design floor of United Kingdom is that England is so much bigger than the other three nations and I think it is an issue. I am struck by just how much devolution costs us and I referred at the beginning of the programme to how much then independence would cost those respective nations. More governance equals more cost. so while we don't necessarily want the sort of centrist Thatcher model, I am cognizant of ever evolved power structures appealing to the grassroots. especially when as we saw in the last set of local elections, people were campaigning on international matters. It was very disjointed, it felt like a sort of cognitive dissonance. I think that's true, although I'm not sure that that's particularly new because local elections have always been seen as a sort of pseudo referendum on the performance of the national government Um I vote locally Yeah and so people should, but they don't. So And I did this time as well because I thought the guy that was our councillor is doing a good job. But I thought maybe if there was a Scottish equivalent in England. place where you'd have your MEPs, your members of English Parliament. It' be perfect for you. You'd be able to slide in on the list like my little brother did. It'd be sort of third way in I think you could end up you' assing that I'm looking for a third way. Well, we know that you wanted to be an elector member, but I don't anymore. Are you sure? Absolutely one hundred percent. Why is that ambition Britain sh Unlike Andrey Burnham sometometimes you have to recognize that something's not going to happen And maybe Atibabs should realize this as well. byy the way, maybe we should mention the other candidates in the by election. I'm never quite sure whether podcasts are good don't need to Yeah, you don't need to b that. Well, there is a reform candidate. What's his name? Peter that Pucky Pet Peter Kanyyon is it? He's pretty extreme. Robertts Kenyon And then there's a rest you see, it could be Rupert Low wins the premership for Andy Bernham because Rupert Lowe's party they if they took a couple of thousand votes off reform which they inevitably are going to do. that could Andy Burnnam in by the back door? The Conservatives tabling someone who stood apparently in the constituency about three decades ago. I think the Green Party have decided also they're going to run a candidate. Yeah. I mean this idea that parties should stand down, I think it treats the electorate with absolute contempt. Because I think if you're a green voter or a conservative voter, you want the opportunity to vote for your party's candidate, even though you know they're going to lose I agree. Good. Next question. Right. let's bring the next question up. It is from David Smith Good morning folks. I would like to hear your thoughts on our voting system. The growing call to bring in PRs first past the post is no longer working and produces weak governments I'm not convinced. First Past the post has brought in governments with clear and strong majorities Those in the mid seventies and M'tempt are the exceptions rather like the rather than the rule For me, the problem is the people being elected do not seem to know exactly what they would do once in power The current government is a perfect example A majority of one hundred and seventy four seats is more than enough to govern effectively and do what the Prime Minister wants. Look at Thatcher and Blair, they may divide opinion, but they knew what they wanted to achieve and got on with it PR might create a more mathematically fair parliament, but it would not necessarily produce strong governments. In fact, it would easily lead to even more instability and infighting First past the post is the best system provroided parties have strong leadership, know what they stand for and have a clear sense of direction I think that has been true up to now The fact that we're now in five or six party politics, I think calls into question some of the conclusions that David has reached there. I think if we did go to PR, he's right in that it would be much more difficult to cobble a government together They may have to consist of three parties rather than two And it would be mathematically fairer in terms of how many seats each party would have, but would it lead to better government Well, I think we've been poorly governed over the last ten years, and I think that would be the national consensus actually. Well, I would agree with that There's no harm in exploring other options because what we've seen is this The idea first past the post was going to keep extreme parties from either end of the fringes out. meant that in fact those more extreme political opinions ended up being the tail that waged the dog. And I think that was profoundly undemocratic. It would have been less problematic had UKIip, as it was called at the time been represented inside the House of Commons. I think we're more likely and we see already the scrutiny that for example, Nigel Farg is under over that five million pound bumg from the cryptocurrency dude. That kind of level of scrutiny pulls his teeth slightly and exposes him. And I think therefore there might be a case for are first past the post system to be re examamined Funnily enough, I said at the beginning of the pod that I wouldn't say what I'd written regarding my little brother. in Scotland, but I do think that the design of Hollyrooods, the Hollyroad was opened in two thousand four and a huge amount of work went into it and the way it was going to be laid out at the Scottish Parliament. and the money spent, of course this is likeH two what's it called that treas line HS two? I mean way over budget. They don't do things cheaper than the North. It was the beginning of the time where everything went over budget. but it's in that Wh she f deliberately was trying to avoid the Yarboo Scks politics south of the border I did point out that we Had we grown up with a circular kitchen table, I don't think it would have stopped us throwing utensils at each other and having need to debate. I don't know the answer this question, but I suspect I do Does anybody watch the proceedings of the Scottish Parliament? No, But the idea is if you have a horseshoe layout, you're not pitching one side against the other. We saw that when there was the takedown of Robert Generrick earlier this week. Oh you' on thearious, wasn't it? Yeah, that but that was an example of the kind of Yarboo sucks that being the DemocratP was it Max Wilkinson something He was actually sitting in the room in front of him. So that wasn't a case of being adversarial because they weren't on the opposite sideid of. But he said you should be sitting over there.'t know so it actually did play exactly to the layout of the House of Commons, which also plays to the first pass of the CPost model, where it's not about sharing power or which of course, the Scottish Parliament was always going to be because it a ortion representation design, and even though we've had this extraordinary success over the last two decades of the SMP and elections, actually today's makeup in the Hollyroood building is much more what was expected, a sort of p sharing. But it's much more difficult to identify where they're sitting in that And But that's the whole point. Yeah, but in In the House of Commons Government sits on one side whether it's a coalition or not, and the opposition sits on the other side. But there's a certain logic to that. What happens if it's blurring at the edg? So you've got a minority government and you're relying on other parties to vote through hge piece of legislation?' still the opposition I mean you're in like the liiberal Democrats, they sat on the government benches when they were in coalition I don't see a problem with that But that's because it's a foral coalition, or not always be it might be sort of hazier example. Like I think at the moment in Scotland, not they're not in coalition with anyone, the SMP. they're a minority government. So therefore, where do you sit on which side of the bench, if you're a party, say the greens are the most like on the opposition benches, it's quitear. Well, not if you're agreeing with them on certain pieces of legislation that put put. Well, you're not part of the government. so if you're not part of the government, you're part of the opposition. It's all I'm saying is she's look how you're so dogmatic and black and white. Oh and you aren't? No, I just like that I like the idea of it being a shed. Why are we sitting opposite each other rather than sitting next to each other? Be you want to fight, fight, fight. Actually, if there wasn't a large table with a remaining cake in front, I would swing for you right now. I'm going to bug her off in a minute. I've got a plane to catch Oh you going tonight? No could have you could have just gone with it. theatrical kind of, you know, Tessa' flying off to W poor. Are you traveveling with children On with Elenna. No, we can't travel with Dan because so we get recognised on the plane and me and Elena because of our Facebook habit and he doesn't like that. so he flies separately I know right. You're just weird. So were you Why am I weird They don't fly separately to members of my family. Well, he's flying separately because he doesn't like being spotted on the plane. It would trigger him. and I don't want Dan triggered in a confined space very dear Yeah. So you're going to Romania, how long four a week Right. Halft timee And I've already just had another email and I'm going to see three government departments. to try and get money out of them Not even just money, just to raise awareness in Romania as well about what we're trying to do with Romanian will be doing Romanian television I've got two television meetings. Yeah. and all the while Eenna iss being left in the north of the country eating cake with Granny and I'm travelling down to Beuchrest. by myself. Sall Id tell it just for a little bit of fluff to finish it. I got a call the other day saying Would I be interested in posting programs during the World Cup on television I said, Well, talkalking about football. They said, Well, yeah, you know about football I think, Yeahah, Id absolutely love it So you may lose me for a couple of weeks in June Do you? excing What who for? Can't possibly tell you. Well, I'll tell you a fair but I can't tell you. Oh, don't it st mean it sounds like you don't trust the listeners as much as you trust me. Well, no, I'll tell people if it comes off, I mean, I'm sure it's going to be one of those things that doesn't go anywhere, but I would absolutely love to do that. I'm sure you would Okay, he'd be in that bit, you know, where there's no proper football fans. wasas it called withith all the canopies and smoked salmon. Prawn cocktail lounges. Yeah No, I've in a studio with a panel of footballers trying to make them make sense of each other say I'll be back here in Britain with Coreory. Avoiding. That's still to the podcast though Scotland's the Worup Englland. Yeah, should be good. I'm sad Romania is should we do a bit of where politics meets the World Cup history or something. I think David V hass done that annoyingly on radio fourour, but we'll have a listen and do it better. Yes. Okay. G. Right. Do send us questions on email, where politics meets history at global d. com or leave questions on the Instagram feed This has been a Global Player original production