International Students and University Funding

This is a Global Player original podcast. Krishi Soona particularly hammered the way in which foreign students are framed costed and whether they can bring in other members of their family when they come to study. And the result has been not just a drop in numbers by tenth That is in financial terms, a fifth of our universities income overnight squandered, it's ridiculous Good afternoon Good afternoon on this sultry bank holiday afternoon. I imagine it's rather hotter here than it is there because Tessa is in Romania Apparently, we've got climate whiplash becausecause I'm sitting here in the East of Europe, which is normally much hotter at this time of year And yet you're baking in England and it's pleasantly balmy Northern Romania. thirty four degrees it is. And you know the last time It was over thirty degrees on a Maybank holiday guess the year? Well, I know that this is a record, isn't it? this May. but there have been other May records in the last ten years. but the way you're framing that, those records weren't conveniently broken over the holiday period. so I'm going to say two thousand eight nineteen forty four. No Yeah So just well just before literally the week before D day, we had balmy weather and then of course it all' just to introduce a note of history into the podcast. And then of course the weather got really bad and they had to delay D day because it was originally planned for june the fifth and they delayed it tntill june the sixth. and even then Eisenhower was not convinced that it really was the right time. but I think they would have had to waitited another ten days if they hadn't done it on june the sixth. That's right. Winston Churchill got up in the middle of the night and acknowledged the sort of moon was reflecting in the waters of the channel. and I think it was considered thereful Calm enough. pererfect for channel crossings, more this weekend by all accounts as well going in the other direction. Yes, and the French have lifted their new rules or the EU rules because there were such queues at Dover that they've decided to take pity on the poor British tourists and lift the chezes. the weekend. It's very kind of them. It's interesting because we were planning to get a ferry due to the jet fuel prices to France this summer And the friend I was planning on going with said, we cant possibly go? Have you seen the ces this weekend? So that idea of Armageddon probably is infectious and the French have worked out which side their red is buttered on. Yeah, I don't think it's normally like that. I mean there is this new system where I'm going to probably see it when I go to Dublin in August where the first time that you go to the EU after they've introduced this, you have to have your fingerprints taken and everything But once you've done it once, you don't have to do it again, so it should get better as time goes on I won't introduce Brexit notes so early on in the podcast, but I've got to say you just did. I know, but I was drawn across the coals when I entered Romania just a couple of nights ago, left standing for hours. Oh that's just my mother in law peeping in the corner of the screen. Hello mother. She can't hear you. I've got my headphones on deliberately ear us or whatever they're called. So the note of history, by the way, I' just like to flag this up to listeners that every morning I send through my tob in which I annotate what I would like to talk about and there's always a historical aspect. And every time it's not overruled by Ian, but in he muscles a little later than me because he generally starts his day somewhat later with the contemporary political agenda, which is sort of like waking up to a cold shower an Ian douche So there was I, I wanted to look at the fascinated in the historicy of wealth. Wh it's not just about the hard pounds and pence you inherit that leads you to having a richer or more privileged life. It's actually a sort of financial DNA. If you come from a rich family and there's ten of you that's divided into ten and you don't actually get that much cash, you're still more likely to financially outperform those lower down the pecking order socially who inherit more pounds and pence. I thought this was fascinating and it goes back centuries, But Ian wanted to talk about the exchange of pounds and pence in a more contemporary setting north of the border in Britain, donon't you, Ian? Yeah, I'm not saying we can't talk about what you wanted to talk about, but I think it would be a little odd cast which is called where politics meets history, not to cover the big breaking news of the day, and I must admit Well we'll talk about it in a minute, but it's the Peter Morll pleading guilty to embezzlement I'd completely lost track of the fact that this was happening today because Clearly there's no bank holiday in Scotland I suppose Scotland gets so many other ones that we don't, so I suppose it's only natural Be Scotland has one in August as well as a second one for a year, don't they? Stone, it's bloody inc cononvenient. I spend my whole life triangulating the fact that my children's school holidays fit into neither the Scottish holiday agenda nor the Romanian one. So I've always got two children who can't play with their cousins, which is kind of important family bonding, I think Unless I take them out of school and then incur the wrath, if you would of your local council and possibly the fines that have thus incurred. Yes, I must admit I've always been a little bit ambivalent about that finding parents for children going on holiday in term time, I don't see the problem. I mean maybe it should be restricted to maybe one or possibly even two weeks, but I don't like the strong arm of the state intervening on that sort of thing, I have to say. Just quickly because we are going to do a deep dive into morale. and actually I thought we don't have to go back that far back in history to find not an equivalent scandal, but I think we could look at the way in which finances are embezzled and the impact it has on trust with the electorate and what's fascinating about this case and the way it was I would argue kind of hidden, is that it hasn't had that great an impact. Look who's the first mininister in Scotland? and I think Jackie Bailey, the labour deputy was quite right to ask today, how come this has just popped up A the Hollywood elections and not before Well, before we go too deeply into that, I mean we are going to talk about that after the break But I know you wanted to express your deep condolences to me. That's right. I don't of read Ian's newsletter, but perhaps because I'm on the other side of the continent, I was feeling a certain longing, Ian, the idea to not be in your physical presence whichich is so well. All consuming what with the height and the space that you occupy. I missed you and Iight. You're nearly as tall as me onto your newsletter and was triggered twice once can be started with Vverbal Then I remember Ian is a football fan. actuallyct you do very well not to inflict your football mania onto me too often. But I did see that you've incurred something of a personal blow over the last few days Well, my team West Ham were relegated yesterday. I mean it wasn't a surprise so I'd sort of almost reconcile myself to it. But if you're not into football, I mean, football is a bit like politics. it is tribal and I belong to the West Ham tribe and obviously they've experienced this failure and they're now going to go into the championship, which is the second division, what used to be called the second division And we haven't been there for fourteen years So it's going to be a huge financial blow. We're going to have to sell all our best players And yeah, so I spent half of the afternoon you'll think this is the typical me writing a very long article for my Westham blog Westhamtillydie. com should you wish to have a look at it in which I go through the entire West Ham squad and give my verdict on whether they should be sold or whether we should retain them. It's called stickle twwist I know you'll be an avid reader. Time well spent. You're having an impact in a very differentere form elsewhere over the weekend, because for those avid listeners who find us on the social medias Ian sampled some Romanian cake, the Bread of love, as I termed it. and I placed that little film on social medias And it got over a quarter of a million views, Ian Dale eating Romanian sweet breread. Today, so great was your reach By the way, by the way, before you go on, you do know that sweetbread means testicles, don't you I didn't know that, but having ever chowed down on a test acc I can't conf for I think thou dost protestive too much M misses Dan whatever his surname is. I've never entered the center of the walnut when it comes to testicle sampling. Anyway, I would belieelieve it or not, I have. The Northern city. Well, could you compare Cos andak with testicles? Well, I think it depends whether they're hairy or smooth Anyway, back to Kosenak I'm out An Avu in a city kind of comparable with Edinburgh today And somebody found it up to me and said in Romanian, You were the woman who ate Cosenak with that I bet she didn't say that. She said fat as well. No, she didn't. She didn't because it's less effensive in Romanian gash. didid she really? Oh can yeah, it's like a little chubby jub. No come on, tellell me the truth. Tell me exactly what she said Well you've been saturated ha't you? I curated it gently. basasically I I gl Picaria Mcat Cosonac, but the main issue wasn't your rain or shape, it was actually the fact that first of all, we cut it the wrong way. Then and by the way, the internet nearly melted on this that we spread butter on it How could we do that? And the idea both of us suggested, we toasted it And it reminded me of like cultural appropriation, but I think once a food of any sort leaves the shores or the borders within which it's been curated and invented It then takes on a life of its own because if you think of chicken Chikim Masala or chicken Korma, these are not curries that you eat in India, They're curries you eat in Britain And so a toasted cosonak is just the kind of hybrid equivalent that's come with this massive influx of Romanians to Britain, isn't it? Well, they should take it as a complelimential Look lookook at Ian, and he looks like a man who likes to butter his sweet brereath. You see, when we switched we should explain that because you're in Romania and I'm at home because I'm not working today, we're using iverside to record this. And we can both see each other. And being the vain egotistical narcissistic person that I am, as soon as I switched on the camera I thought to myself Oh, you're looking quite good today. I thought sort like ort quite that the fatness in the face is sort of not gone, but maybe disappearing And now you've completely ruined it. You've just sort of made me think that I'm really fat again. not. actually you looked pretty good in that video That's the truth. but Remember Romanians are very different. They look You looked very English in that video, relative to an older Romanian man who'd be smaller and womizen like a nut. You know you're a more wholsome Destern. Do you watch goggle Bx? Occasionally, ye, I do watch goggle Box. Do you know the gay couple, one of whom is quite old and the other one much younger. Well, I was reading a piece at the weekend, I can't remember where it was now someomebody was interviewing them and I was slightly Well I I was going to say appalled, but actually quite gratified to find out that the older guy who I thought was in his probably early seventies is actually exactly the same age as me, that I think looks much older. Don't you, Tessa? Yes, muchuch older.es think The problem is I said that they called me over and said, Hey, that English ball guy, you were the one that bullied me into firing this from this side of Europe to your side of Europe It was said with great affection, the truth is Remainians have been deeply flattered that we ate sweet bread in our podcast or before our podcast, and there's something a touching about that B also a bit humbling on some level that takes so little to please Romanians and it reminds me of how actually historically badly we've treated them, we denigrate them. It's a bit like I'm always reminded when I read about the history and the way in which we talk about East Europeans of the oval office dubbing that Zelensky was given the idea that that would have the equivalent would have been done in quite the same way towards a leader from a western country, I don't think is the case. And if you flip that on its head. It means that they, you know, are grateful for for any kind of attention and I feel there's something wrong there almost. It feels like a terrible political imbalance. Well imbalance. Obviously that White House incident with Zelensky was absolutely appalling. I think Trump has done that to quite well, not quite as extreme as that, but he has done that to other leaders Not in the same way. But I do think you do sometimes try to find ways of sort of criticizing the West for I mean, let's face it, how many Romanians have come to this country since two thousand three? It's quite a lot. I mean, if we were so horrible to Romanians, we wouldn't have been letting so many in, would we? I think it was more about economics. And also more to the point they wouldn't have wanted to come if we were all going to be horrible to them. I don't know. I think actually to an extent. The word Romanian became sort of a sloppy expression for a certain type of migrant that wasn't welcome in the middle of the Brexit debate. But I take your point that I might be reading too much into it, that what is a superficial compliment, a viral video of me and an English bloke eating cake. I just if you imagine it happening the other way around, it wouldn't. But that's also about cultural heritage and the cultural capital that Brin enjoys I think maybe we should make this just as none jokes used to be a regular feature on For the M. mayaybe we should make Ian sampling Romanian food a regular feature on this podcast. and then you can go viral again. I don't want any sort of horrible soupy things though. I've got to say that Munjiro is not killed in appetite. because he has absolutely no clue like a man over sixty how to collaborate on an Instagram video But why once they start getting an uptick of a certain number of views, plus that on Facebook, I send a message to Ian and I go collaborate on this video and we'll get more Romanian free food. Sure enough, there was an instant collaboration. Well, I do collaborate on all the videos. You don't seem to realise it though. Anyway, I think we should get into the meat of the podcast. so let's go to a little break Hello from me, crrime journalist Andy Hughes. and one of the hosts of the Crime Agents. This is true crime like you've never heard before. And I'm the XCOop Neil Bassu. Well, XCOop isn't really doing it justice, is itt Neil? I mean, you did head up every major department in Europe's biggest police force, the mightighty Met. you're no slouch in the crime department yourself after twenty years as a investigative reporter and also as an undercover journalist. On this podcast, we tackle the major crime stories in the news like the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, as well as delving into some of the most famous cases in criminal history, like The murder of Stehen Lawrence. Check out the crrime agents on Global Player, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts As you alluded to earlier, it is It will feed all the conspiracy theories that the whole establishment in Scotland is basically sucking up to the SMP and that the reason that Peter Merrill's court case was postponed until the twenty fifth of mayay was because it couldn't then interfere with a Scottish Parliament election But the interesting thing to speculate on I think is well say the court case had happened on april twenty fifth, not may the twenty fifth Would it have had any material difference on the scale of the SMP victory on the seventh of May. I think it would have had a little bit of an effect, but I don't think it would have had a real effect on the actual result. I think the SMP would still have won and they would still be forming a government. They might be a few seats later though, what do you think? So the current first minister is John Swinny and he is very much framing him and his party as victims of this embezment case, the former chief executive, the man who ran the SMP. Well they are. except John Swweenney, he wasn't part of the government machine, okay when Peter Morll was running the party from what I gather, but he did at point him because I dug into this Swinny's an old friend of Morll, and yes, he appointed him chief executive during his first spell as SMP leader in the early Nies. So tell me who's the victim here early two thousands. early yeah early nineties. So So the wisdom of that move is now going to be questioned and it's sorry, I thought you said early nineties I understand. So the wisdom of that appointment will be questioned and it just plays out like rank double standards when the appointment for example of Peter Mandel Vikist ararma literally has sticked a whole through the British government when at the same time, we have John Swweenney neatly sidestepping this case, washing his hands of it, pretending he had nothing to do with it when both his personal and professional decision making are called into question, not only about the date of this case conveniently, what? ten days? No Three weeks after the local election, but more deeply about the original appointment. of Peter Morrell and moreover, Alex Smon, neith the Lay Alex Salmon and several other members of the SMP cautioned that the individual running the SMP being married to the individual who was first Minister of Scotland, leader of the party and running the government Dank Conism and effectively meant that transparency was the none. Swweeninnie was not one of those voices. Now if you were Rory Stewart at this point, you would have said, overver to you, Alistair U Now, okay, as also Rory Stewart would say, let me unpick that because there's a lot there and a lot of it I agree with I think the particular bit that I agree with is Nicola Sturgeon's role here because I don't for one minute believe that Nicolas Sturgeon knew what her husband was doing all can be implicated in it. and clearly the Scottish police thought this mean you're shaking your head here, but the Scottish police thought the same why are you shaking your head? A lack of curiosity thinkinks Ian, I don't know where you come from or what your personal wealth is like a one hundred and twenty lot less than I think it is. a one well, I repeat this then, a one hundred twenty four thousand pound motor homeome. a Winnie Bago parked outside his mother's house in Fife. that Value is greater than most of the houses in Fyife. And by the way, the money that he was spending, he wasn't hiding it away in some offshore trust fund for his nefarious future. He was spending it on retail goods from cosmetics. Who was wearing those cosmetics? The last time I checked, dear Peter doesn't look like he benefits from foundation. Mont Blanc pens. compomuter games. So stuff that is coming into their home in Scotland. and you're telling me, Nicolas Sturgeon never wondered where all the excess cash came from that paid for this Well, you say excess cash His salary was well into low six figures, I think So I'm not sure Bear in mind, this apparently didn't occur in the early years, I think it's mainly s since twenty fourteen, since she was firstirst mininister Now. F first point there is What on earth was he thinking of Because he must have known that if this all came out, that would be the end of her political career Now there are still people who suspect that she resigned in when was it twenty twenty C you remember the yearn it twenty twenty three that the timing of that it was because she knew that something bizarre I'm not sure she the accusation is she knew exactly that he was going to be arrested or anything. but she the accusation is she knew something was up. You want to interrupt again I Just very suspicious that the police moved on this case seven weeks. after she announced her resignation. And look, if you want to be a conspiracy theorist, which I'm not accusing you of, but there are plenty of people out there who will put two and two together and make four. If you want to believe all the conspiracies, you will think the police must have been in on it. She must have known that they were about to come knocking at the door. And you will think that the court case was scheduled to be convenient for the SMP. I mean that is the way that people think nowadays. It's generally more usually cock up rather than conspiracy You're never going to convince people of the opposite of that. But I go back to the point. What on earth was he thinking? Now, I think if you're first Minister of Scotland You probably don't notice a lot of things going on at home. I know when okay, I'm nothing too first minister or anything. But I know if I'm in busy times, I don't sort of take much notice of my household finances and I doubt whether she would have done either I don't know Nicola Sturgeon well, but I know her I think well enough to be able to make judgments about her. And I don't believe that she is a crooked person. I don't believe I think she was genuinely shocked at what's happened. It's completely upended her life And I do have a degree of sympathy with her And you can say, well, she should have been more careful, she should have noticed And I think she possibly hasn't done herself any favours by some of the public comments she's made about it since it happened I would like to remind you just of the dates and also the way in which not only D she fail to recognise or question the goods that were coming into her house? but she batted away in a sort of Royal familyily style any questions around the SMP's financial health. And I'm going to quote her, There are no reasons for people to be concerned about the party's finances. She told a meeting of the SMP's ruling body in march twenty twenty one, when members of the party were suggesting otherwise IN And I suspect that's exactly what she believed. Now she was wrong on that, abbsolutely and she should be held accountable for making false statements. I totally agree with you I think it's been very difficult for her to make any definitive statements since the arrest because it could have been seen to prejudice any trial. Now in the end, he's now pleaded guilty, so there isn't going to be a trial. Now why he's pleaded guilty? C I point of information. So he's pleaded guilty, so there's not this ongoing court case that will further upend the ruling party in Scotland. the SMP it's a bit like Andrew picing off Virginia Durette Well, he hasn't said that, you're assuming that that's the reason. I'm not sure that's the case at all. I suspect it's more likely that he realized he would have been found guilty and by pleading guilty, you knock a third off your sentence. And he will be given a long sentence. the judge in this trial will make him an exemplary case. warn others And quite right too, in a way, I do believe in equal justice rule, but there are some cases when you do have to, as a judge, I think make clear that up with this the country will not put Um So I completely understand everyone's inclination to think the worst of her in the end It's him Now you say she should have noticed all of these luxurious things coming into the house. Is it unusual for a man to buy his wife expensive perfume? He had a jaguar eyeepace, I think, as his car. Now, I know enough about cars to know that that is certainly not the most expensive car you can buy in the world I mean you hear the word jagger and you automatically think it's a really luxurious car It isn't particularly U so I'm not sure that it's right to just assume that she knew more than she's ever let on M more broadly because clearly you've had a loveving with Nicola. You you had one of your coos here You see again, that's very insulting As I said before I don't know her well I've met her on four or five occasions, I've interviewed her for a total of probably threeree or four hours does mean that you can and particularly the kind of interviews I've done with her I have sort of gone searched inside her soul if that doesn't sound a bit weird Um, And I like to think that I can tell when someone's trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Okay, I'm not going to convince you on Nicola, and nor do I particularly want to because actually she's ancient history now but the man in charge of the SMP partarty, not only a close friend of Murlb, close friend of Nicola Sturgeon throughout her ruling years who never pushed for more separation of powers between Morrell and his wife when it came to both running the party and running the country. and I would also go back to flagging our the way in which this It just wasn't talked about in the run up to the Hollyroood elections. Arguably, my wee brother should be part of a ruling coalition right now with the Liour Party, because actually, if this had been front and center the way in which Stalmer's Muck withith Mandelsen has been in the Westminster case and across all the British predominantly right wing press, we would have seen F more accountability at the heart of Scottish govern. But that is a consequence of two things O, a total failure on the part of the Scottish media, because I think the Scottish media is generally not hollly, but generally in cahoots with the SMP I think crisis. I would say think Cisises. I don't disagree with that But secondly, It is a failure of all the opposition parties to make it an issue. Now, having said that you have to think, well, how could they have made it an issue? When it's going to court, cant you can't say or do things which could be prejudicial to a trial. So they did have their hands tied a little bit. so from that point of view, I'll have some sympathy with them But I think on the general basis, you're right. C I just apologise for the dog noises that we've had in the background? becausecause John's gone out, typically just when I'm doing a podcast. so the dogs are sort of anxious that he's not coming back and are constantly making noises. Aren't you woody Dude's being very good though. you in there's a lot of parhernalia. What are all those mugs and books? Things that Ied Are they merch? that mer? It's merch. All the books are ones that I've edited and written and I sold through my pololiticos. co. uk website. do you post them yourself? By the way, talk You post the books? I do actually. I pack them and well I pack them You put them in a large bag by the front door and then John takes them to the Every shop downown That means you cut out the middle I can't becauseuse I can't drive. You c out the middlem man and you take the profit away from Amazon into your own pocket. Well, I do because they're all signed. You can't sell sign books there Amazon. This only started because when I did why can't we all just get along in twenty twenty? I'd so many people say, Oh why can I get a sign copy and I thought,'s good point Wh can you? So I set up a very amateurish online shop And I sold like fifteen hundred copies of it. So then I got a website designer to design a shop and brought back the pololitico's name. so it's all stemmed from that. You can buy things that aren't by me on it's basically a politically themed shop. As it says on the website curated by Ian Dale. Nice, I might do that for my Queen Marie book, which I've just signed for, but we'll talk about that more another day. After the break, I would like to look into and we don't have to go very far back into more historic, but still in living memory, political embezzlement and slash general financial and slash sexual scandals and where they've left the ruling parties because you will find that the SMP are the exception to have scraped back into power. They were badly impacted by this in the general election, twenty twenty four. So they I think they went from fifty seven seats down to let me just check that because Iote they got nine They got nine, that's right. So thirty seven of the fifty seven seats went to labour. And it's very possible that after these two Aberdeen bo electures, no one in Aberdeen and one in um Where is the other one? are both They're taking place on the same day as the Makerfield one. It's entirely possible that the SMP could lose both of those One to the conservatives and one I think the other one possibly to labour. The timing of this Peter Morl expose has rather upended what I was really enjoying and that is the plucky plumers's undoing courtesy of retrospective tweets, but we're not talking about tweets posted twenty years ago. We're talking about tweets posted about four years ago. Concerning Carol Vldermans? I know. I never thought we'd be talking about looking Carol Alderman's arhooldle, But there we are. That's coming up, ladies and gentlemen. That is what's called the ultimate tease Let's go to a break Just before Tessa gets into her stride on the history of political embezzlement Can I just say that should you wish to see Nicola Sturgon be interviewed by me at the Edinurgh Fringe? It's the first show of my run on august eighth and you can buy tickets now at the Edinburgh Fringe website or just go to my website and there'll be a link Mll rock up in your really expensive motor homes and present her with a oblan pen, two ses headfg. And ask her where she gets a from. The thing is, I have interviewed her at least twice since all the allegations were first aired. and on both occasions, she couldn't really say an awful lot This time has no hiding place. I mean, I can ask any question I like. Well, she said today on her Instagram that she was angry, hurt, sad and distressed. She talked of acute pain. I think there is a sadness about Nicola Sturgeon. I think this comes of a failed marriage, a child she was longed for and didn't have a political career that consumed her and now she's the other side of it. And I do have an empathy for her and a sympathy for her, but I don't think that exonerates what was effectively, I think, a governmental stitch up when she was running the country and also I just vehemently oppose independence. Yeah, And I have to say, the point that you made about him running the party while she was first Minister, which as you say, Alex Sammond warned against I think is absolutely right. And she has to take responsibility for that. That I will agrees Fascinating ' becausecause you also had a Natalie McGure done for Minor emmbezzlement, also SMP. You had the allegations against Alex Salmon. I know they failed in the end, but you know quite a lot stuck surely, twenty twenty sexual allegations. But the bottom line is it's extraordinary and exceptional that the SMP did so well in the recent national elections in Scotland, and that speaks to the way in which everything rotten and all the politics of grievance north of the border gets kicked down to Westminster and it will always be the case until Scotland get their way or many Scots get their way and have goddamn independence. Right. So you want to talk about other examples of embezzlement, because I'm trying to think off the top of my head what examples you're going to come up with because I don't think there are actually that many. I think generally our politics over the decades has been comparatively clean, but obviously there have been some examples. I can't believe you've said that because I think If we look at when population started losing faith. with the political class It happened not just around Tony Blair's decision to get into bed with America and wage war against Iraq It was all tied up with the slightly post stated MP's expenses scandal. I know this is sensitive for you because of your former podcast partner, but Jackie actually by no means was the worst among really a scandal that tainted most of the political establishment in Westminster from duckhouses to So whatever they were. Well You're right, it did taint the whole of politics Of course, people never look into the details of that there was no duck house, for example. That's always the one that's quoted. But again, there was no chandelier as another example that was quoted. It wasn't a chandelier, it was basically a light Um And I remember that period very well because that was probably at the height of my blog. So I did a lot of commentary on it, I did a lot of media on it And my main thrust was, well, yeah, some of these things are terrible. You're absolutely right. But let's not run away with the idea that all politicians are corrupt, they're not The system was wrong. The system actually encouraged people to do a lot of these things. I mean, in terms of like flipping houses, for example I mean use Jackie as an example. She actually went to the House of Commons fees offffice and she explained her situation and they advised her to flip her houses Now if you' advised by the authority that runs the House of Commons fees, department to do that I mean You could say, well, she still shouldn't have done it, fine. There was a lot of examples of them actually advising MPs to claim things, which you and I would think, well, how can you possibly claim that on expenses But just to remind you, you say a lot of people are exonerated, some of the cases are exaggerated. Bearing in mind this is a Labour administration, particularly towards the tail end of Gordon Brown being absolutely hammered, predominantly but not exclusively by the telegraph But nonetheless, the bottom line was several ministers and the speaker of the House of Commons had to resign their posts and five MPs in were sent to jail. Yeah. over this expenses Absolutely which In some ways, proves system the legal system works because people were held accountable for deliberate I mean, is it I'm never quite sure what the difference between fraud and embezzlement is I there were clearly some things which you could regard as fraudulent and those MPs were held to account for it And yet people still talked nowadays as though no one was hld to account for anything careers were absolutely ruined over it and some Perfectly innocent people's careers were ruined over it. I mean, the way the Conservatives handled this I David Cameron, he was absolutely ruthless. And there were various I can't remember who they were now, but there were various conservatives whose careers never recovered from it. What's interesteresting is the new rules were established, and I'm going to cite a couple of them without wushing to get too politically geeky None of them have seen the restoration of trust, that vital cultural capital in any democracy, return between the electorate and those in power. So we had the establishment of the independent Parliamentary Standards authority, and we also had the end of parliamentary self regulation, which crazily existed up until that point for both expenses and MPs pay. You also had a sort of new breed of politiciian, and I suppose, I mean, I know he's a bit of a rival of ours, but Ra Stewart might be seen as one of those who kind of entered the house in twenty ten as a kind of I don't know, more crusading style of politician who I think were posited themselves as kind of a new breed. You also had the election of the chairs of select committees that gave a bit of space and more power to the parliamentary body versus the power of the executive. Things were changed, Ian, and yet we still don't trust those in power in Westminster. And yet the mud hasn't stuck north of the border. That's what's so fascinating about this. The double standard No, it is fascinating, but I think it's just it's not only our country that's suffered this. I mean, this is going on throughout all democracies where voters in general for all sorts of different reasons have lost trust in the political class And yes, the MP's expensive scandal was a big part of that in this country, but it went much deeper than that. It goes into how politicians appear on the media, how they just most of them can't relate to ordinary people even if they are ordinary people themselves. I mean, you see Andy Burnham is a great example of this. You probably won't have seen this Russell Kain did quite a funny Instagram reel, essentially impersonating Andy Burnham pretending to be like an ordinary person And so he sort of films himself in his house say. Well, look, I'm buttering my toast here and it's white bread, I can tell you And I'm going to have a poo now, but I'm one of you. I'm just like you And I mean, I haven't done it justice, but it was very, very funny. He's done the same thing with Nigel Farage And I think there is too much of that why some politicians try to pretend that they're just like us any fool can see that they're not and there are very comparatively few politicians who can carry it off and I mean there's several Labour MPs now strangely who They're all from the North, and I think I've spoken about this before, and they use their accents really well cross as ordinary one of you. Luke Charters, who actually resigned his PPS to U who was it this week? somebody anyway and says Stalmer should set out a time turber for his leadership. He's the MP for York Oer. He's only thirty comes across question reasonably often. and he really has got a very Yorkshire accent Boy does he play it up? And he admits he plays it up. He actually said when he was on cross question on Monday, Well, you know you know me I'm a blunt northerner I'm thinking yeah, okay And I think it's quite a successful thing to do. but people can spot a fraud a mile off. if you really Try and put it on and pretend that you're something you're not voters can spot that. Acent is has become the all consuming all important identifier in not just political life, but I would say cultural life in Britain. The reason I'm south of the border is when I came back up from university after school, I was told by Scottish media I sounded to English and I couldn't get work, so I went south of the border And actually my little brother sounds always sounded more Scottish than me was much more canny, kept and cultivated his accent. I noticice also in all his electioneering, he used his two middle names, which are both very Scottish, so Duncan, Angus, Melville, Dunlock You know, that idea of being a Scot in Scotland working for the Scottish people, That's just one small personal example from my own family case. think Juliet, I' sound much more English Tsa Juliet Dunlop You know, And also when I was bullied at school, if you tell me go left, I go right. If you tell you know somebody who's threatening me and saying'm you know, I remember in Piloockery highigh S schoolool, the state school I went to secondary level. and I said to the kid, I'm sure I've told you a story on the pod before. Garm M Nichkel took the mic out of me because I said, could you pass the pen please? The teacher had left the classroom And he went, could you pass the pen, please? And I stood up and said, come here and say that And he came over and I had to lamp him because he arrived in front of my desk and the whole class was watching And I was, I'm not going to change my accent because I'm being effectively xenophobically called out by a bully in a class, a bloody clubhead, the kind of Wayne Rooney of Pillockerry, forgive me Wayne. But anyway, the bottom line is you I've always not regretted it, but I thought, God, there would have been a kind of a belonging badge that immediately was attached to my name and voice if I sounded a bit different. but also contraryary, I never gave into it If anybody knows Gary from Pit Lockery, we'll happily invite him onto the podcast next week and he can have a rightite of reply By the way, apparently lives in England these days. England That's Nie Now before we move on, have you got any other examples, maybe more historic ones of political embezzlements? I mean, the one that springs to mind is Maorundy Gregory of whom a biography was written recently, a very good one And he was essentially selling honourors for Lloyd George and pocketing the money, or at least Lloyd George and he were pocketing the money. And I think that's quite a famous one. Are there any others that you can think of? Well What's interesting is I got kind of sidetracked looking into the major administration. The first thing was I noticed, I do think that the expenses scandal impacted. on the Brown administration and its electoral misfortunes, i. e. the arrival in twenty ten of the coalition government. Likewise, John Major, you'll remember, he promised us back to basics. and then he was undone not only by sexual scandals, including of his own, but there was a sort of stink To a lot of the politicians, not just David Meller, Do you remember David Meller? I got totally distracted going down the David Meller radather hole. with Well I know David Meller a bit. I bet you do. And then also there was the guy who tragically died asphyxiating himself for sexual kicks, Major himself, off course, Claire Latimer, he was denied that one, but we know Adwina Curry based her saucy novels on her affair with the Prime Minister. But then actually there were cases of Castfk Cash. hang on again, let's be historically accurate. He was not Prime Mister when he had an affair with Edwina Curry. Like Nigel Farage wasn't in the House of Commons when he received five million pounds. Well, that is actually a matter of fact. I believe we're not talking about Carol Werman Oh Oly because of are we going to come onto that? I think we'll do it among the questions. It's just really it's like the SMP have eclipsed, one party of grievance has eclipsed another party of grievance. And one horror story has kepped another. But actually if you look, we had Tom Smith resigning as Northern Ireland secretary and later admitting accepting money. that was on behalf of Harard's now further discredited Mohamedad Alfayed. Tim Smith. Yeahah. Tim Smith letter a long time ago, and he wasn't that big a deal in my life. He wasn't featuring majorly, o John just returned, so the dogs are very excited. Can I see John? am I allowed to get a peek at him No. No he's just a shadowy creature. He won't appear. He does exist though. I haven't actually made his existence up. I saw his shadow flit past the literally ye. could have been a sort of axe murderer later waiting to pounce Give me cza By the way, by the way, I' me to mention this in the fluff at the top I've been thinking because you know I've got two weeks off at the second half of June. and I don't want to spend all the time away. so I thought whereere can I go in Europe on J just like a five day little jaunt And I've decided that if I do this I'm going to go to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia and do them all three in five days. What do you think of that? It's a good idea. If you'd said from Romania, it would' have been really hot for you to come here without me. No, I wouldn't go there without you because obviously I need a chaperone. to make sure you behave. Yes. when he goes into bars at night, I trust as far as I can throw you and I say that with John in spitting distance Anyway, can we go back to Tim's m because you're letting C conservatives off the hook? No I mean had him resigned as Northern Ireland seecretary. Yes, he admitted accepting money. You had the h you hard Again Again, you've got to get this right. He wasn't Northern Ireland' seecretary. He was a PPS in the Northern Ireland office. I don' think he was even a minister He was a minister. He was a minister. not seecretary minister We' to looking up now Bloodywell was a minister and I'ming you he was a minister. Anyway Car on Neil Hamilton lost his libel suit against our fred. Oh, Jonathan Aikin. Do you remember that Japanese? yeah, the sword of trruth indeed managed to lie off under oath and perjured himself. The truth is that all these incidents built up, I think, into a crescendo that results in a lack of trust with establishment politics. at the same time as you get fake news and the internet conspiracy theories are kind of billed. But what's really interesting isn't that story, which is almost inevitable that we're kind of again in the establishment, especially is at the same time national wealthall. So from two thousand seven onwards we're all getting a bit poorer. We're not getting as rich as we once were. and we're looking for someone to blame. But what's interesting is the way in which Scotland is anomalous You get just as much, in fact, probably more per head corruption within the political class and let yo and behold, they just pass the buck down to Westminster John Tessa would like to come and see what you look like. C you just sort of Have a look in the laptop Myi, John. You know I don't do that sort of thing. Did you hear that? Hi, John She says Hello just so you can He doesn't know what you look like, They are. That's a really hot day and a really fat gut. Hello. Hi, A be nice to meet you. I'm super happ. She says Nice to meet you What do you want to say? I' was just gonna to say that I'm gonna see if I can get some Romanian Kosanaks sent down to Tombridge Wells. She's going to get some Romanian cake for you to sample because apparently I sampled this and it's gone viral in Romania. Okay, how lovely. John, one day am I? Okay, fuck off. No, can you ask me if I can come for dinner one n? You said I could come? she says, canan she come for dinner one day If she's cooking yes. If you're cooking, yes. I was done the cake then, I promised We've got about ten minutes to do That a beautiful moment. Oh, that was an unexpected pleasure for you. Yeah I leave. He doesn't talk to many people that I talked to. That was touching. I've come over all queer. Lak. That's what he did when I first met him. Anyway, less of that, you can read about that first meeting in my forthcoming autobiography and it's quite a tale, let me tell you Right As you say, time for a break R right, if you'd like to send a question into the podcast, just send it by email to where politics meets history at gllobal. com or if you go on the Instagram account where pololitics meets history, you can leave a question there too and Tessa will pick it up. Do you want to start? Yes, I will start. So skipping all the ones on Romanian sweet breread Let's tackle this one from Oie. It takes us back a bit and we've forgotten about Dear Wes recently, but it's focused on Wees because Ollie says I know Ian is close friends with Wees. but I do wonder as to whether Ian genuinely believes A, Wes can win. this is Pative potential leadership contest presumably between Burnham and Wes and B, whether he would be a good prime Minister. My answer would be no to both and I'm speaking as somebody who would love to see a gay PM, but now is not the time nor the person. I think Labour have hyped this up so much and I can't begin to understand why we are losing the plot Well I think it partly depends on whether Andy Berham wins the by election. I think if he does win that, he's in poull position. If he doesn't win it, I've already said that I think Angela Ryna would be best placed to win a Labour leadership election, but I think West Streeting would make a better prrime Minister than any of them So that's in brief where I stand on it. Interesting you say that. I always think of you as this arch Brexiteer And there's where hass come out fully in favor of Romain of ree examamining our relationship with Europe, taking us back almost to the time before the Hundred Years War. He's so keen to reset things. And yet you're recognizing, I think that his gray matter is infinitely superior to that Burnams or Eangelas. Well, it's not even about Grey matter. I just think he would be capable of doing the job of Prime Mister. Look, he's not from my party. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but as you say, particularly on the EU. But I can recognise that people who have been Labour or liberal prime mininisters in the past have been good prrime Misters. Clement Aley, I think, was a good prime minister even though I wouldn't have supported a lot of the things that he did, particularly the nationalizations But it'd be fatuous to say that he wasn't a good prime Mister, just as there are plenty of conservative prime mininisters who've been bad prrime ministers What you have to do is work out what the things a prrime minister has to do and then think, well, would that person be good at them? And I think the main thing that makes a good prrime Mister is if they know where they're heading They know how to get there and they can make the machinery of government work for them. And I'm afraid that Kirstarmer isn't capable of doing that. I actually doubt whether Andy Burnham is because I don't think he's got a clear sense of direction I don't think he has a rooted ideology, whereas I think Wes does. So that and I think Angela Ryna does, and that's why I think either of them would make a better prrime Minister maybe not as good a salesman as W is very good at marketing labour policies. I mean that's Anti Burnham's main strength. but you can't be a good prime Mister just by being a good salesman. I just want to intervene and remind everyone Rollie's point that Have we lost the plot. Interestingly, since labour was elected in the third quarter of twenty twenty four, output per worker has risen by two point four percent Asent This is unprecedented since two thousand eight, and yet apparently the government is failing. It's brought down migration as promised. It has pushed up growth as promised, and yet it's all swings and roundabouts and we're going to bring in a shiny man of the North. It does, I agree with Ollie, stink It's insane. But what can you do The greatreat Demos has spoken or is about to speak. You ask a question now Right, Pritz Pal Bulla says In the last pod, the outbound migration of young British people was talked about as a Brexit phenomenon by Tessa. However, I'm forty nine and I have many friends mainly in Australia who left after graduating for a new life down under, but some are also in the USA and New Zealand. I don't think it's a new phenomenon Also, I read in the Irish Times how they're looking for ways to keep Irish trained doctors in Ireland because there are so many who are leaving. and many other stories talk about the cost of living challenges and other similar stories to the UK. Yet Ireland is in the EU. I voted to leave the EU and stand by my vote still do get fed up with people romanticizing the return to the EU as a magic pill rather than focusing on how we can use our freedoms and flexibility outside the EU to do better for our nation How can we reframe this conversation through the realities rather than roast tinted spectacles And then she lists some links on this as well. I think there is something in that. I mean the grass is always greener on the other side. That's the case whether we're in the EU or not and I think people are now starting to think, okay, well if we did go back into the EU, on what terms would it be And there's a big article in the Daily Mail this morning with quotes from a senior European Parliament official. She's chairman of I can't remember what committee it was, but anyway, some something reasonably important who essentially said that if Britain thinks it could come back into the EU without joining the euro or and it will still get the same rebates as it had before will dream on Now I think it's that sort of thing where this argument about the sort of the whole four percent economic growth, or I see it's now increased to eight percent, the difference to what it would have been had we stayed in. I think that's going to come into sharp focus if there is a serious debate about returning to the EU My suspicion is that if labour is reelected after the next election, even if it's a minority government, maybe in a coalition with the liiberals But I think there will be continual further moves to align ourselves with the EU in many different ways, but I don't really foresee a decision to re enter because I You'd have to surely have a referendum on that and I mean, okay As generations move on, you might say that well people will be more willing to contemplate join the euro and they might be willing to contemplate some financial penalties just for the return of freedom of movement Well, let's have that debate In fact, thanks very much for that question. I've moved on slightly because I think they're bludging each other over the head with Brexit, I think that's a very good point. I felt profound tragedy that was to me personally and to many others and also economically of Brexit is One of the reasons it hit so hard was I don't think it can just be solved with a wave of a magic wand and a re entry into either groupings that we have no say over, like the customs Union or the single market or indeed re entry into Europe because we wouldn't have the perks that we once did. So that's absolutely I'm interested by Westreeting at least acknowledging the damage we did, but I'm not believing for a minute that we can just de lays a trail back in with the same T's and C's. But what I did want to flag out in terms of migration is the insanity and I've never understood why this happened and why they don't change it of putting foreign students in the net and gross migration statistics. Rishi Sunak particularly hammered the way in which foreign students are framed costed and whether they can bring in other members of their family when they come to study. And we've seen a massive shortfall in international applications into our third tertiary education sector. And the result has been not just drop in numbers by tenth. But that is in financial terms, a fifth of our universities incomeon overnight squandered because we are playing to the politics of grievance and trying to I think irresponsibly bring down migration numbers in all the wrong ways. People are worried about boats, not foreign students with money in their pockets, and yet they're the ones who have been hit. It's ridiculous Well, I agree with you on the students on international students because We don't shout from the rooftops enough about how successful our universities are. And to my mind We should be welcoming as many international students into this country as possible And if you make it more difficult for them to come, don't be surprised if they go to other English speaking countries. I mean the family thing, I mean, I think is a difficult one because it is undoubtedly true that if a student brings three or four members of their wider family with them, I mean inevitably they're going to be a cost on the state And I can see why they wanted to restrict that, but the way they did it was so blunt and crass that it did put a lot of people off. We're not necessarily talking about three or four members, just coming with your partner But it's also the kind of mood music around these decisions. It bleeds into conversations and ideas of Britain and how easy it is to access British capital assets and education. and it turns people off and it's a tragedy. I wanted to do a deep dive today if we hadn't been derailed by Merll on the extraordinary heritage of our universities, going back to early medieval, establishment of Oxford and Cambridge, great north of the border, by the way, the extraordinary success stories that Again, early Medieval St. Andrews, Aberdeen, Glasgow, It's it's These are institutions iconic, world famous institutions that should be allowed to sell their assets internationally. and also that wonderful cross pollination that comes from encouraging the best and the brightest and Aset, the richest, who then go forth with this base knowledge, not just of our education system, but of our country and are able to you know work in a world from an Anglophone perspective. and that's something I think we should hold onto like a precious flas. totally agree with you However, you're not really correct on student numbers. I've just been looking them up. In twenty fifteen, there were four hundred thirty eight thousand international students And over the next few years it went up to four fourty two, four fifty eight, four nine six, five five six, and in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, it was six hundred five thousand then went up to six hundred eighty thousand. And that peaked in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three at seven hundred fifty nine thousand Before in twenty twenty three, twenty four dropping to seven hundred thirty thousand Now there has been a drop off from Europe because obviously the fee structure changed after Brexit But they've been more than supplanted by extra students from Nigeria, India and China predominantly So it hasn't been, I mean it'd be interesting to see what the twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five figures are There hasn't been a massive drop off ten percent drop off. I took it from the Fancial Times this morning. I'll argue it out with you when I get back. In the meantime, I'm actually on seven hundred fifty nine to seven hundred and thirty does not equate to ten percent. I think you're on ch GDP there in Tumbridish Wellells, I'm going to have to change it. Yeah, exactly. I restre my case. Cludill, don't believe a word he says. Forget the authority gap. I'm going to go Pos anak so one day I too can look like you. I've spent all pod worrying about the fact people might think I'm fattist I'm not faddest, I think Ian looks terrific these days, which is good because as a tax fayair I'm held Didn't you think I always did then? No I think you look better now, if bit' th enough. mean you're asking me, goodness sake, surely, that's the reason why you're stabbing with Gy.aines. Are you saying that you're ending the podcast now before we have a chance to talk about Carol Vorderman? I think I see the one Iours are I'