Graduate Unemployment and Future Job Prospects

This is a Global Player original podcast Robert Kenyon. He said some things as a woman actually made me feel quite unsafe. Because he's been sexist and doesn't like women drivers and makes assertions about women having abortions How does that make someone feelar like? Oh, it does because it's the tone. When you lower the public bar, you also then lower standards all round, in a very real and visceral sense, behind closed doors, on streets, in schoollyards She's back. With a vengeance I know. it's so nice to have you sitting here rather than on a screen. It never quite works the same on a screen, does it? It doesn't. It's extraordinary, by the way, how on Thursday's edition of Where Politics meets history Prior to the Russian drone Yes, you were attacked. Penetrating NATO and Romanian territory, injuring two people By the way, NTo do nothing. Did you notice how NTO did nothing Well, apart from issues stern words. E they didn't even call Article I convene a meeting It's because we've been allowing Russia to penetrate NATO space territory with their drones since the beginning of the war Iose they will have come to the conclusion that maybe it wasn't deliberate, it's just a drone that went off course. Red lines, Ian. I know I'm not denying that, but I suspect that's why they didn't take it seriously, you clearly think they should have done. If you leave a wiggle room of space, Putin will occupy it. He'll get his pinky and he'll go Ikyeekky and you'll make the space grow. We're going to come to the war and look at the parallels between the Great War, the Second World War and modern warfare and why Waging war against a smaller country has never looked. Monday problematic. I wouldn't describe Ukraine as a smallerry.moreer than Russia? Well, that's true. Every country is smaller than Russia though. Everything's relative And Iran is hardly a small country, but relative to America Should we do a bit of fluff first though? Oh, tickle me. I've just tickled you actually off. Oh my Godd, yes. She's brought me a present back from Romania which Shallould we say didn't quite fit Despite my increasingly lithe figure She brouought Romanian, very colorful waistcoat, embroidered waistcoat for men. And it shouldall we say didn't meet around the front. But I w an embroidered belt. then you know you in. It was a coma band, wasn't it And she was fiddling around the back and it was It she mobe to a Romanian dance I think we might do I do. we might need to edit some of them And the dance is called a horror. Is it really? No No good going back to your old days. That's what ins said. So that's in the trail for those of you who ever go on Instagram or the Facebook. Will you dare to put that on X? What trail I mean, it is proof that the Manjara we've paid for is working Is it not working quite fast enough? No, it isn't because I've actually put on a couple of pounds. How? Because you don't drink so high. No, but I think I've been eating pretty badly in the last couple of weeks. Have you been stressed Um Have you been missing me? I've been missing you. that must be it. Do you think you did miss me a bit? I do miss you. I like what I'm used to and it's the unusual thing when you're not here, so therefore I don't like it when you're not. I know I've been doing the horror this week and I'm going cruising at the beginning of next month, You know that, don't you No, I don't know that.. Where are you going? You know, I'm not your kind of cruising. I'm going What do you mean my kind of cruising? My ship. Yeah w aroundound I think the Mediterranean or somewhere. I'm lecturing. I'm lecturing. Now a friend of mine told me over the weekend that he's just done this. He's written a book on Wh was it some Not very memorable. Romanian No, not Romanian. Roman emperor But not a very well known one. Ppistratis? D don't know. You're clearly so memorable you can't remember. Anyway. So he's been on a cruise ship. How to get off at Malta, apparently Well, I'm going and they've been very problematic over the arrival and departure time. So I need to sit down with Corey and work out how we can connect maybe on Starlink Right, how many episodes are you going to be away for? Let Let's confront that when we come to it. In the meantime Not more than two, I hope. In the meantime. We can't even deploy Aggie because it's been announced today that she's off on maternity leave It's pretty blad and obvious you' going to be on maternity leave, I have to say Romanian wine any potential fill in Have you? Yes, donon't look skeptical. You don't drink wine. They make very good wine. they. On the fluff. It's not n Romania is not a country known for its wine though is it? It such nov actually Moldova, which used to be part of Romania, the Moldovan Republic, provided the USSR with all its wines and champagnes and one of the ways that Vladimir Putin punished Moldova for doing what Ukraine was doing. This was pre the Ukraine warar for trying to move closer to the EU and the Western markets was by stopping importing all Moldovan wines and champagnees because they said they didn't meet their hygiene standards. It was an embargo, basically it as a commercial kind of threat a blockade And as a result, all that happened was the Republic of Moldova got much better at exporting into Europe and beyond. And Porkari is really an exceptionally good wine, actually too good, I think, to give to my fill in I've bought a cheaper Whever that might be. Are you back by the fifteenth of July? id. What's happening then? the launch of my book God almighty On book's Mine is night and M P on Kindle Now. Get me giveive me some proper fluff or we're going to a break and digging into Mandelson's rear end I I didn't mean that bit phrase I ever thought I'd hear you utter. I know, I didn't mean that. I meant you were going in the back channels. I mean, what I mean is the bits that weren't meant to be read. I mean, I God knows the humble address. That's the thing I was looking for the humble address Did you see the front page of the mail on Sunday yesterday? No, what did it say? It was basically asserting that Nigel Farage has been banned from doing desert Island discs It's interesting because I wasn't aware that you could be banned. Do you think that's true? No, I don't think it's true. I mean, I think is he hasn't been invited on it And it is slightly odd that he hasn't, given that he's been in the public eye for so long and one of the major people in public life in Britain. Well for at least ten years is let me go through a long list of major politicians and tell me how many of them. on death island. Well I'll save you the bother because all of them have. Gordonbrgh. Yes. Tony Blank. Y Kamy Badenock. Yes. Damid Cameron. Yes. Kir Amer. Yes. The only one that hasn't Davy, yes. The only one that hasn't is Zach Polansky, but he's only been party leader for a short time. Yeah. That is really is luring. So the thinking goes, well, why hasn't Nigel Farge been invited? Now, I think there is something to the fact that, well sort liberal leftty BBCs sort and the whole story was about that BBC staff would feel unsafe If Nigel Farage did a desert Island discs in the studio, I mean, have you heard of anything? I think that's topic What you could argue is he just runs a party with five MPs, there's a couple more across the floor subsequently. But actually the size of his party reform Parliament isn't comparable even to the liberal Democrats. But a lot of politicians do do it in opposition And I think Tony Blair did it when he was in opposition rather than Prime Minister. I think I'm right in saying that Um If you look as if you might form the government, I mean that's a pretty good reason to have somebody on So I think there probably is some sort of editorial thing going on there, but I don't believe he's actually been banned I think he ought to be invited to do it at some point. But you're not really into music, are you? Because I did ask you to bring your eight records with you, but you don't really do music. I do have, however, a relationship with desesert Island Discs because my favorite and classiest. actually girl Pamela Rose was invited ono Desert Island Ds off the back of being in my book Bchley Girls because a BBC producer came to the launch and was just utterly intrigued by her. She was the woman who was offered her first role on the West End stage in nineteen forty one and she asked Frank Burch, she was trying to recruit her through a godmother to Blechhley Park, which she should do. She' had some German, she'd done her finishing school and year off, etc. in Munich, unlike all the British Cabinet who had no German And Frank Birch replied to her The stage can wait, the war cannot. And so she was devastated to have to go and serve at Bletchley Park. She felt she should because during that period her brother was missing in action. he was later. found to be safe and well and ended up being one of the great and the good. Such was the reading class in those days. But she served at Blechhley Park and she found terribly dull because of course the rest of her life was so fearsomely exciting I said Pamela, I can't really put that. I'm trying to sell book here, babes. Help a bit. But she went on Des Indis and she was hugely musical being theatrical, helped establish Glimborne, and it was one of the great joys at the end of her life selecting music which But why don't you like music? don't dislike music. It is a bit like You're either a football fan or you're not. You're either a Christian or a believer. But with music kind of you like one sort of music and not another. You just don't seem to like any music. My friend said, o, Tessla and music. The louder the music The harder she has to talk to get heard over it What a wise friend that is. Please introduce me to them. I have. you the one that bght your lemonade. I right.. Never a truue word spoken Bea I actually did choose my desesert Island discs once. Oh my God, you are so wonderfully solid. It's because I like No, it's becausecause I like lists Is it or is it just are we all sitting at home thinking where was it when or was it if? when I get invited on d? It was if This was like twenty years ago And it was when I was doing my original blog and I used to do lots of lists on it. And there was one day when there was no news happening at all. so I just thought, oh well I'll compile my desert Island disk. so I did And let's put it this way The choice of songs would not meet the radio four guidelines probably because there wasn't a single classical actually there was one classical bit among it But all of mine are sort of Pob. will give me one. Um 'cause you have to choose one ultimately, don't you at the end? Yeah, the one that my all time favorite song whichich will not surprise you. it's by Cliff Richard and it's called Miss Unites. Do you know that It's a ballot I think I do know what Cliff Richard's like liivving doll and stuff but I don't know that particular ballad. It was Released in nineteen seventy five, it only got to number fifteen in the Chartance. it should have been a number one. was When you go home, listen to it and you'll see what I mean So that was one of them. So not going to be doing that by the way Why do we do a podcast together? It's really bizarre, isn't it Have you heard of it B in Japan by Alphaville? Have nowian. Oh God. The winner takes it all bya. Oh yeah. winner takes it all. Yeah, I know that. I Pacab Bell's cannon. I enough. And you've no idea the pressure that was on me as a young person because everyone had their cassettes and compilations in my day. And I remember going out when I was working at that orphanage in Carette and was with a whole bunch of Western people there was this quite terrifying New Zealand volunteer who was older than us and properly experienced And we were all dancing in this Turkish restaurant and it was Winner Takes it All and they were all singing the lyrics. And she looked at me and she went, Oh my God, you don't know the words. And I was like shrivelled up on the floor. L she said in such a dissing way. Honestly, if you didn't embrace the right sort of music and I'm sure that's probably still the case for teenagers today, it was like cururl up and die in a corner Not only did I sound English in Scotland, but I was toned deaf. Brutal It means I'm really good at coping with trolling My mother had no interest in music whatsoever. I think it was because she must have been tned deaf. See? music is a huge part of my life. Oh there you are It gives me more time for reading and talking. talking and listening Time for a break I hate you Have you ever wanted to hear some of the biggest names in politics, entertainment and sport properly explain who they are, what they believe, and whats really shaped them? That's the heart of full Disclosure podcast with me, James O'Brien. In each episode, I go beyond the public version of guests like Gary Linaker, Dwn French, David Hairwood, and more to get into the experiences and defining moments that make them who they are You'll hear revealing stories, unexpected reflections and the kind of detail you rarely get anywhere else. So if you're looking for real insight and conversations with substance, you'll find exactly that on full disclosure. Listen and watch on Global Player, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast Do you know how many soldiers the Ukrainian mitary Russian soldiers, the Ukrainian military believe they have to kill Russian soldiers order to sufficiently undermine Russia's recruiting capacity per month, per month and thousand. thousandousand Do you know on average how many Russian soldiers are being killed per month? according to our intelligence services? ten thousand thirty five. It's a dirty, horrific wall See, on its own thirty five thousand, it's a bit of a meaningless number, isn't it? But when you addather up over a year,'s horrific That's nely half a million people a year. So that's probably place on half a million families that have been affected by this. So it's been going on now for four years. So that means that they've killed somewhere between one and two million soldiers so far, Russian soldiers Um And if you think about, how many people does an average family know, say it's fifty So there'll be fifty to one hundred million Russians that know some a family who's lost a soldier? They've now prohibited putting flags on fresh graves in Russia because it was drawing too much attention to the extent the scale of the casualty rate. During the USSR Afghanistan warar After fifteen thousand casualties, there were protests that had a sincere impact on the Kremlin. It speaks to the ruthless iron grip that at the moment Putin has on his country that we haven't seen equivalent protests, but the serious disquiet at top levels in Russia. One of the reasons being this war impacts the elite and their way of life. ally with the exception of casualty rates, which by the way, impact allos of society more than it does the ordinary person because the elite could move freely in Europe and America. they could access money freely in Europe and America. They could go on their yachts, they could hang out with their mandles and friends, they could spend their money at will And now all those things have been blocked off to them. their children can't be educated in the West. they can't own football clubs They're miserable If there were protests going on in cities all over Russia What do we know about them Doesn't the BBC have the piano playing T for? Well They do, and a very good man he is. feeatured on my All talkalk podcast earlier this year. veryery successful episode was I I think the only person I beat was Nicolaas Sturgeon, wasn't it? Yeah you were last year, weren't you or the year before? That's true. mean yesterday's women. Bizarrely the most popular episode this year has been Daniel Barnett, my LBC colleague, who does the legal hour on a Saturday He wass just as surprised as I was, I feel. That's because you've got probably a lot of crossover from your obious. Any back Anyay back but no I'm serious because They've got such a grip on media and internet in Russia that I'm not sure that we would necessarily know about it unless Steve Rosenberg found out about it How would we know I think we would have Even that Mr. Nobody vvers. Putin, that incredible BBC story vill. I still haven't seen. You must watch that I think you get an impression or an idea at the moment, very much, there's that sense of people being cowed but you can't take out that number, that number of young men, the flower of Russia's youth, in a country by the way with historically low birth rates. so less than two children her woman talking about families losing their only child in many cases. It's like a grotesque national tragedy. But it also speaks to this extraordinary new form of warfare So at the beginning of the war, There was a presumption that digital technology would revolutionize things, but nobody was sure in what way What was fascinating and what is fascinating about this conflict predominantly being slugged out in the Dombass over thousands of miles is that you have the trenches from World War onene. You have the tank warfare from World War I, and then you have this precision, often cheap to make weaponry doesn't require human beings to man it. so unmanned weaponry or unmanned systems, drones, particularly and robots, giving you this new you could argue modelling for a Third World War. And what you'd imagine might happen is there'd be fewer casualties But you know in terrifyingly casualty rates have gone up In the First World War, For every two to three men injured, you had a dead man in the Second World War, for every for to five men injured. By the time of Afghanistan, every ten personnel service people injured You had one death, one fatality because you got helicopters in, particularly in the Vietnam War, getting them in the golden hour, taking them out quickly But now you can't get in to rescue your member because a helicopter goes in, it's swarmed by drones whether Russian or Ukrainian. So these men are injured, not only men, but mainly men bleeding in muddy trenches, World War One style and the casualty rate now for every three to four injured men One fatality, it's grotesque Did you have relations killed in the First World War Both my grandfathers in the First World War were medics And they didn't I think They didn't die. I think either of them died. No because u My grandmother's brother So who had been my great uncle, uncle, I don't know anyway. He was killed in Belgium ten days before the end of the First World War And I just think about that and you think of the generations and the cousins that I've missed out on having U what what he What he, I mean he's nineteen Clifford Nordon was his name and I've actually dedicated my General's book which comes out on Thursday to his memory. And in twenty fourteen My sisters and I took my father to visit his grave in Mulenbk, Mulenbeck, Mulenbk, anyway,' right in the middle of Belgium. And it was a profoundly moving experience actually and they I mean you know all these Commonwealth w grapes. I mean they're immaculately maintained. and my father was there on his what do you call them those motorized little bike things because he was getting a bit dodgdery by then. And I'm really glad that we did that because I obviously My grandmother, she was she was born in eighteen ninety four I died in nineteen seventy nine when I was seventeen and You just think about all of the things that he missed out on. and it does bring home to you the futility of war. I know Well when I wre Lesie Forigout, I was really struck by that one of the If you go into harrow school because of course the officers took a proportionateally greater hit than the soldiers in the Great warar And this extraordinary room sort of built out of Cromwellian and Elizabethan wood and it's this relic almost with a light that can never be switched off. and where a woman was a mother was placed her pain, her only son taken out in the First World War a month before the end of it and just couldn't make sense of me. And I talking to Helen Lewis, this extraordinary woman whose son died in Afghanistan, that idea of it being grief being like a room without a door, you can't get out of it, which is why you see extraordinary monumententalization and commemoration to war, but if you think in a country like Russia where they're not even allowed to put a flag on a grave What is this special military operation? What's it for? So Ukraine and Iran arguably, hate that regime or not are fighting existential wars. But what's Russia fighting for all those men? For a bog on the western flank of their country. I mean, okay, bog with minerals. I suppose you can't ask questions in that country. But Putin has been very successful in essentially selling it as the war that will revive Russia as a great power and to an extent He's achieved that in the sense that, although it's diminished their military capability, it's diminished their economy Um, We're all talking about Russia in a way that we didn't four years ago. No. I think recently, there was this great hope, I believe, that Russia had that somehow Trump would come in on their side which she has not by enough. He's not actually delivered the peace in a day, because even he when he looked at the map couldn't hand over great chunks of Ukraine. No, the fact that he's not sending weapons to Ukraine anymore, or not in large enough quantities anyway, that is a victory for Putin. Yes and no. what you see now because of the changed nature of warfare is the ninety billion euro loan that the EU has delivered to Ukraine, being converted every single day into fifty thousand pound drones that don't just do short range attacks, but long range attacks into the energy isn't it? eight hundred miles into Russia And also these fiber optic drones now. so they're harder to jam because signals jamming is something Russia is very good at. We know our Ministry of Defense. John Heeeley apppparently had bad insomnia before his plane got jammed. Sorry, I shouldn't smile. He was caught, wasn't he? cyber warfare crossfire. So That's the point is that the Russian bear Green American giant are being unstuck. by this alternative layer of weaponry. If you think previously once you had air dominance, you could goam well do almost what you liked. But now, how do you achieve air dominance? If coming in beneath you, you can have thousandousands of drones. Arguably, this is a great thing, this is progress because will China now ever try and invade Taiwan? Because their aircraft would be confronted by a musc. Taiwanian, Taiwanian, Taiwanese. If you were the Taiwanese prime Minister You would be ramping up your spending on drones, wouldn't you? And what's what we should be doing? Did you know that last month. NATO held an exercise in a disused Charing Cross underground station they replicated the easastern Font somewhere along the Baltic. coastline and where they had this imaginary thousands of drones and mapping out what was happening in that particular space Britain would have to be creating, by the way, if we were at war about a thousand drones a day. att the moment, we've got a few hundred and we'd last about a week Exactly where our spending and our intelligence goes, I don't know. But what's interesting is about Ukraine, one of the reasons why it was able to respond so quickly is ever since twenty fourteen, while none of us had really noticed about Crimea being gobbled up by Russia. Ukrainians had. and they had this kind of smartphone technology, they were weaponizing, they were a step ahead of the game and there is an irony isn't that all the time now flying into Kiev are NATO leaders, military top blasss from Europe and from America learning off these really whip smart Ukrainian men and women who have basically adapted to drone style warfare because we initially wouldn't give them the missiles and artillery they needed And in a way, this comes ono something I want to talk about in a moment on the conflict between needing to do something very quickly in government the inability of government to act quickly. hundredundred percent. So let's talk about that in a minute and we'll have a few words about Lord Mandelson. We will, but just just before the break, a little quiz for you because as we discussed at the very top of the show, there was an incursion into NATO territory. Could you tell me the name of the Romanian city where the Russian drone landed G letters. fail Could you tell me the name of the Black Sea city in Romania which removed the Russian consulate in response to the attack begins with C, Ovid was banished there during R Roman Double fail Could you tell me the name of the Romanian president who called out Russia for the attack No answers after the break. Everyone will have their knickers gripped. It's extraordinary how everyone says I speak about Romania too much on this podcast and yet my podcast p seemed listened Well, I do listen, but I can't say the name. You know what, the truth is in, every single BBC telegraph, etcetera, broadcast I listen to, pronounnce the city wrong. Every single one without exception, and yet there's a million Romanans in Britain, they could have Pesset Dunlap for you to sit there and have the brass neck to complain about people's pronunciation Beggars believe. Ianale, you've spent a year calling out my failed pronunciation. But this is called Ral. But the fact is you don't even know the number of times I let it go. Okay, the city that was attacked Galat? That's what I said. No, you said Galati or Galati or something. Galats. Well that was new enough. The Black Sea city on the coast Conanza. N never heard of it. They all got it wrong anyway, the pronunciation of it. And the Romanian president is not Dan Nicusaw. sorry, it's not Dan. They all say I was I say right. His name is Nicoshaw, but they all say the BBC journalists and so forth they say Dan Nickhaw, It's Nicusaw they get it wrong anyway. Just take it from me, Corey D't use that bit in the trail. D' making sure piss off all of you Oh enough about Mandy's back passage. I didn't say that she did. You I said Ian was leading this We' recording this on Thursday afternoon, not long after the latest batch of Mandelen files have been released Um And so far there doesn't seem to be a particular smoking gun. It's all very interesting gossip stuff When I'm reading these text exchanges between Mandelsen and different ministers I do have to ask myself Is this really, does this amount to a sum of beans. What's the phrase The Hill of beans, a row of beans, something like that anyway. Does this stack ono something worth focus? It's very interesting Reading the exchanges between Pat McFadden Peter Mandelson about Jackie Smith. Oh Which but I mean we've cut now is that Nobody is going to write anything that they think could be used against them in the future and government ministers do have to have conversations which remain private. shouldn we can't get to a situation where the public is demanding transparency on every single bit of government business because government will grind to a halt. Well, it's interesting because I would argue that there is no balance at the moment where we want to turn over every pebble in Westminster and number ten. and yet According to you, in Scotland, the SMP are cruising to a possible another by election win because nobody seems to care about The SMP. Absolute extraordinary inability to account for nearly half a million pounds of their party's money. Hello Well, since you've been away, Nicola Sturgeon has been doing the through the mangle a bit. Have her book sales gone up It's actually a very readable book. I'm sure it is. Very sellable too with all the attention she's getting. But you know, I did hear on Laura Kloomsburg Laura what? Laura Kounonsberurg. Very good because you did mispronounce her it. I Just slipped out of my tongue wrong. Okay And she's not just been attacked by Russian drone, but she was slightly attacked by Nicholas Durgon, who said she was feeling like she had been convicted although she's on the outside while a husbands serving the ex husband. Well's been she said she's been convicted for a crime she didn't commit. And I do have sympathy with her on that. in that I think she does have questions to answer about her oversight of the party which she was leading and its finances. and questions that were being asked at that time. But I don't believe she has questions to ask on well, whyy didn't you notice that the pendant that your husband bought you from some shop in the Shetlands was sort of go paid for by ill goten gates, why would she even question it? Do know this is you know what this speaks to The Wells scp Be Well here we go. I know. I think it's true. I think it's hard to understand How detached, how quickly people become detached from the way in which most live So these I don genuinely I genuinely don't think that's the case here. Do you liveom no kids both earning a lot of money. Exactly. They were earning together two hundred fifteen thousand pounds a year. So why should she wonder about where he got the money from to buy a jaguar. Why should she wonder why he was buying two toilet seats or whatever? meanopstick or I mean the pepper grinders they cost two and a half thousand pounds. Well, if your husband came home with a couple of pepper grinders, would you immediately think, o They look very expensive. I wonder if they cost two and half thousand pound? Of course you wouldn't. I do sometimes price checksuff though, don't you? No. If I get given a face cream or something Well funny enough, I don't get given face cream because I use Nivia for men and it's always done me very well. Okay well I just hasasn't it, Tessa? Yeah, you do look great very smooth skinned. I just think that we might occasionally go online and price checks some goods and I believe thatant she would have probably looked it up online. Well no, she knew what that was because she actually she said they were in this shop and she said, Oh that's really nice. And he then went back and bought it for her. And then that night he gave it to her. and she thought, what a lovely thing to do. How much was it worth it? I can't remember If I'd read that story, I' definitely remember how much it was wor I think you're more determined. I think you live on their sort of financial level Well do you do mean. And I think I can see how you But I don't the value of product. I don't if John goes out and buys something unless it's a car. I don't automatically But there was a motor homeome and a car Well you see, she maintains that she didn't know about the motor home, that she never saw it. because her explanation is that it wasn't parked in front of her mother in law's house. so when they went there, she never saw it. She said it was parked to the side because there was a gap between her mother in law's house and the neighbor's house and the road to the side led up to the garage, so it's park there. So it's entirely possible that she wouldn't have seen it. Even if she had, his explanation would have been, well we want it for the election and COVID is happening, so we've got to have a vehicle to get us around Scotland in I mean, you might think that that's a bit weird. It's It's sort of buiable, isn't it Yeah, I just think more broadly the lack of scrutiny including over and above the SMP machine is hugely problematic. The blurring of her roles and their dual responsibilities within one couple one dynasty, if you like, again, very dodgy. I think there's a lot of sadness baked into Nicola Durgeon, the failed marriage, the lack of children. I think she exhibits, I think this kind of unspoken female pain cost of being a successful female, which is really high still in the twenty first century. What I was expecting you to say is imagine if it had been the other way around, if it had been the woman that was doing the defrauding and the husband was sort of bleing how could he be held responsible for it? I think a lot of women would find that completely unbuyable. But I mean, I completely believe her explanation. about the different things that he bought. I think she feels that she wasted sixteen years of her life on a man who's proved to be crimin Which is interesting because that again also calls into question her judgment because it was not just her personal judgment, it was also her professional judgment because he was the executive of party in a way that, for example, because we started talking about Mandelson K Imine everyone that's had any connection with Mandlestone Tainted by Handlestone. Yes, I know. All I'm just going to say to you is Galatus What could stanza Just just going to book my next holage to Romania?. Just going to do that straight off for the show. It'll be before I go cruising. Right. Okay. Well that means you can't go into my barbecue. There's a differential, I'm ignoring you.' extraordinaryly difficult to ignore someone you're recording a podcast with. By way, a sideline, it's just an issue, okay? But I would say there' a big there's a chasmic sizal difference between the way in which we judge and hold to account Piticians in The nations and regions relative to the way in which we hold to account those in Westminster back to Mandelson. know Pat McFadden, your charm Jackie, although I noticed it was Angela Smith in the Lords that he was having a teta tet about private school fees being a bad idea. not Jackie. Originally when I saw that, I thought it was our Jackie, but it wasn't, it was Angela Smith So so many lords and ladies these days, my goodness came from them called Smith. I commommon. Well, that's the problem if you rem for reditary peers. Dear me. What has the Labour Party done to this country? Anyway, the upshot is I I think weirdly And I don't know if it's because of the Tony Blair intervention or because the economy slightly feels like it's slightly stabilized. I think that having said Starmer is a gonner three weeks ago, I'm not so sure we are going to see a change of Prime Minister. And I'm still convinced we are Are you? That's fascinating. I'm not convinced any longer I think my aid this process is Rupert Low. By standing a restore candidate in the by election, he's going to take probably somewhere between one and five thousand votes off reform could well be enough to let undergo an. Al also I think the Lucky plumber has just gone a step too far. I mean, Carol Alderman's, I mean, you know I can't go over that. I mean, I know I'm not a classic reform voter, let's be honest Re? Although half of trade union members we hadard to Well, we're doing that on the programm tight I don't think that ought to be a surprise to anyone, but the fact it is a surprise to the London Metropolitan elite in which I class you I think is quite revealing. You shouldn't. You underestimate me, as do most people in the media establishment. I called out and knew that Brexit was I you said that I know, but it's important to remember that that I'm not just in this metropolitan bubble that the likes of Tony Blair and David Cameron operated. Actually I have two feet firmly on the ground and I fully recognise that people believe the rhetoric of the reform partarty. They don't understand rhetoric. Rhetoric. They don't understand the reality on the ground, which is, for example, they would rip up the Equalities Act. So any woman who's thinking of voting reform Hold your horses Just add a bit of historical context to this, it shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone tritional labour supporters, by which I mean the traditional working classes, the phrase I hate, people still use it And we don't even know what that means anymore anywways. that's why I hate Well quite. So what did you mean by it? If you think back to Enoch Powell's River of Blood spepeech in nineteen sixty eight U Who was it marching in support of Enoch Powell, it was the London Dockers, and you don't get more working class than London dockers which section of society is most virulent against welfare cheats. It's the working classes. I met on my way in today I was chatting to David Davis outside and we were talking about this Um And he was telling me in a The cououncilors stay in his constituency. this is years and years ago not now Um There was one person on a street who was unemployed. And the rest of the street decided that this man shouldn't be unemployed and what business had he claiming welfare payments because they were paying for them And I think that is really illustrative of a way, not just people on the traditional right think, but the way that traditional labour voters think because they feel they're the ones that are being ripped off or their reputations are being besmirched Now as it turns out, this guy was totally legitimately unemployed and had every right to claim benefits to think that all of those people should have a natural adherence to the Labour Party when there is an alternative is I think a problem for the Labour Party because they've taken those voters for granted for decades and what they should have done is learned from the lessons of Glasgow where the Laboury the Scottish Labour Party took labour votes for granted in Glasgow. made no effort to improve people's lives in Glasgow And in the last twenty years, the SMP have controlled Glasgow City Council because in the end, the working classes B I don't know what you mean by taking the working class for granted. I don't fully under I never know quite how to unpack what that statement was. That's fairly clear, I would have thought. I just assume that those people are going to vote for. you've come what may. And I think that we've seen the same happen in the Conservative Party. That's I'm not saying we haven't. Yeah. But the idea that you take people for granted. I mean you try and work, don't you towards your base. You're saying that Tony Blair attacked too far to the middle. He was too sort of shiny radical? Is that your argument? and therefore left behind or he introduced too many migrants too quickly during the freedom of movevement period? I think that is true. O. So maybe you have a slight point, but what's fascinating about reform is that it's the idea that it's somehow a sheep and wolf's clothes or the other way around, because what you have these migrants from the Conservative partarty, the hard right of the Conservative Party, who would like to slash and burn any kind of workers' rights which previously trained unionism was built on, whether that is For example, the newew deeal that the Labour Party had brought in, the new workers' right bill, the minimum wage whether it's I don't think re forform of quest the minimum wage They may do, but I don't recall them ever saying that that would be up for grabs No, if probably to have a policy, I' would probably say very quiet on it, but I'd be really interested too. But you're right. A lot of reform voters have come from the right of well abravean and Robert Jener. I mean these aren't people who are pushing hard for workers' rights. They're just not looking after the little man or woman. They don't. But what you're failing to understand is that reforms vote does not just come from the right and it never has done. I don't fail to understand that. I understand that's fully the case what is inexplicable is the way in which Nigel Faratter has hoodwink them because he does silly posts on TikTok and drinks lager and people think he's a man of the people when we know he's almost a sort of mini Trump in terms of the elitism and where he's comeing from. But that's exactly the same as Harold Wilson Harold Wilson was an Oxford Don and tried to pretend he was working class by smoking a pipe. This is nothing. He wore a raincoat? Yeahah, but actually Harold Wilson did believe in the working man and improving his lot. and Nigel Farage, I'm really sorry, he doesn't. Well, I'm not sure I agree with you on that Look lookook at his manifest, it's all about grievance politics. It's all about bashing one set disadvantages. pitch towards the other. say well the Labour partartyies is as well, grievance against rich people No, not in the same way. what's the VAT and schools all about? Yeah I thought that was a slightly meal mouth policy. I mean, arguably it wasn't mely mouthed. It was It was a cashroade. It was a bit of a cashroade that backfired, I think in the end because I mean, you' you've what you've got there are private employers who drove a lot of investment and a lot of cultural capital. But on the other hand, for too long, you could say we've been governed by people with extraordinary levels of confidence that have been reared in public schools that are detached from the realist use which haven't been matched by their levels of competence Yeah that concern this country Well on that downward note, shouldall we go to a break? Hold your horses. someome rhetoric. Rhetoric Apparently Nigel Farage has said he would cut the minimum wage for young people. Good, so would I So we have some questions. By the way, are you coming to my barbecue? You weren't particularly interested when I mentioned it to you. Is that launching one of your many birds? No, at home at my house. Oh yeah, definitely coming to that. Yeah because that's in my honour. Isn't it? No. Oh, I thought it was for me. Oh I misunderstood that C. My God, not everything is about you. Oh, I know that Ian. Oh, you sound like a member of my family. you've been badgering me because I've been to your house, so you want to come to mine. Y. But Corey and Chris and their respective ladies will be coming too. Nobody says ladies anymore I do. It's Benny whoo It's not. It's so Benny Hill. It isan he's out of fashion to say in your mind. Pejorative. not young. Pejorative It does very much. It indicates respect. It doesn't. It suggests you're stuck in a binary world where women meant something subbsur. Well, I am stuck in a binary world where men are men and women are women And I'm glad to see that West Street believes that too. Oh, if you come out batting for Wees. How is Wes these days? Is he wishing like hellily I hadn't handed over the NHS batten? I bet he's dying of boredom on the back benches. I'm so pleased in a way. you know, hubrous. Don't get me wrong, I like Wees a lot and I think he's got much going for him and he's young enough to be able to come at it again in the next decade, but he ain't going to be the leader of the Labour Party, is he in the next I cl that it's possible but not probable. Yeah. Listen, I've got a question from Connor on Neets. The NETS discussion didn't go down well at home when I got back. I decided fired up by Andrew Allen Milburn's discovery, which I could have told him ages ago that actually children need to work gainful employment p shillings and pence for a couple of hours work, even if it's just what was once a paper aroundound an equivalent from an early age is essential and it's what we're lacking. I came home full of fire and brimstone and told my eldest daughter that it wasn't good enough just to do exams this summer. What was she doing? What had she planned in terms of work, not work experience but work over the summer. because when I was her age in what we would have then called lower sixth, I went to Yor because I couldn't any work in a Highland village and I worked in a cafetera cafeteer, or whatever it's called U I think I lodged with my uncle and I served coffees all summer long Yes. and it was terribly dull after about the first day because the novelty, the first day or two. And I also remember that the Greek owners of the cafe, both of the sons, accosted me in the staff room. bothoth of them stuck their big slug tongues in my mouth. That's what our girs had to put up with all the time at that stage in life, fifteen years old I was with this Greet man stic in his tongue in my mouth p me over the staff tables, so had to riggle away and make another cappuccino. It's probably paid about two pounds fifty an hour. Ovious I didn't tell my mom because there's only one thing worse than being subjected to a great big tongue in my mouth and that was going back to Ranock and being subjected to a summer with my brothers. Fly fishing. I mean, in all seriousness though In your teenage years, I mean, how often did that sort of thing happen? I think that remembering that U where you kind of confused. One of them was quite good looking. So there's two brothers, these Greek brothers And that h Oh old, they were grown up. They were like in their twenties that kind of confusion as to what one's response should be. And I often remember talking to veterans who served in WorldarI and I write about this in Army Girls actually. about the kind of need to be able to repel a man, which was very much seen as a woman's role in the war because they couldn't get pregnant. and it was up to the women and it was seen that higher class, self possessed women would feel able to say no and repel a man. because most men, of course, not all men, many men will go on and rape and not heed consent. But most men, if you make it really clear no, will to get the message. What I found was the conflict there was the flattery of being desired. was the fact that they were my bosses, they were employing me, the fact that I was alone at the same time as knowing I didn't want it to continue. So when to kind of without offending them how you wriggle away from their clutches literally. And I think that that is something that very much preoccupied my generation, whereereas Mara's generation would be far, far quicker to call. You just kick them in the balls. Kick them in the balls. Yeah, yeah, she would kick them in the balls And also because it's kind of oag now to be neat so meant you had no job, but you know, but you could virtually suddenly you could put on Instagram. Anyway, what's she going to do Well, that's the thing. I said last night that she couldn't come down to supper until I shouldn't be sharing this. She said I'm not to share more of her life on the pod But anyway, there was a red line placed in the sand There was there's no good just being brainy. wasas that a real red line or an obbama red line It was Just to add a little bit of history into the anecdote. Well, he lets Saria down and I feel that I would be strongly defending yria. Right Did Jud actually ask a question No, I haven't asked a question yet. I've got one from Connor on Neatets. Hi both V very much enjoyed our discussion on Neats in the recent episode. wantanted to add some thoughts as someone who has managed to receive an offer for a graduate job having completed a BA from Cambridge and an MSC The Institute of Student Employers reported that in twenty twenty four over one point two million applications for just under seventeen thousand graduate jobs This shows just how hard it is for those who are actively pursuing a job to find one As with most things, what is needed is carrot and stick approach to this issue. The lack of meaningful job opportunities serves as no carrot while a generous benefit system provides no stick. for those who brackets intentionally or not are classified as a neat While there is much talk about tightening the benefit system, less is said on the side of job availability, what do you both think can be done to provide job opportunities to those who are actively looking all the best Well, first of all, congratulations, Connor But I think those figures are very suspect. I don't.. I don't. Given that there are around half a million graduates every year, he's saying there are a million applications there Yeah. because there's wholes of graduates seventeen thousand jobs. I'm sorry, but I don't know what that figure's based on. He sent the link. in the Institute of Student Employers, more than one million graduate job applications set new records So that is the average employer receives one hundred and forty applications per graduate job. That's a fifty nine percent increase on the previous year Well, we're going to risk repeating the discussion that we had, I think it was sometime last week whereere graduate employment has always been an issue to one extent or another And there have been sort of peaks and troughs. in the second half of the nineteen eighties, graduate unemployment was very high You look at it after the world financial crash. I mean we're still in the after effffects of COVID. so I'm not massively surprised, but I think what's happening now to add to it, of course, is the AI revolution and it's not I don't see a point in the next five years where we're going to think that graduate employment is no longer an issue because I think it's only going to get worse I'm afraid So what do you do in those circumstances? I mean, I'd like to think that a lot of people who count themselves among those that cohort would actually think, well, you know, the way out of this is for me to start my own business Come on in, Well going from DVve diving and Dom scrolling to starting your own business? Well, it's a very small percentage. It may well be. No, I don't think we have an economy where the The conditions exist for people to take risks like that in the way that they might have done twenty or thirty years ago. Well we could look, and we won't, because our country doesn't ever embrace conscription historically, we never have for all sorts of reasons that we've talked about before But if you look at many countries, especially the Scandinavian countries, which do particularly well in terms of youth employment They have conscription, not for the whole country, but you have to prove your match fit and then you're selected. And it's seen as something aspirational. In Norway, seventeen percent of eighteen to nineteen year olds serve And they're not graduates No, but some of them are graduates. Itpends some of them go on you know that's when they're recruited as as eighteen to nineteen, but depending you know what your skill set is. But if you had something like that where there's a golden benchmark and actually Rishi Sunak in his desperate hour prior to him losing the election comprehensively, floated that idea of kind of community service and or military service ill thought through, but rather than pay these kids presume they're getting some form of benefit, wouldn't it be better to put money in them doing voluntary work or requiring a. I agree, but the fact that you yourself have used the word conscription, People assume, therefore that it's military and that's what they assumed. And you're right, it wasn't well thought out by Sunet when he announced it But there is a good idea there somewhere If the media just latch onto it and call it conscription, then don't be surprised that people won't want to take part in it Except it seen as a golden badge in countries like Norway, It' seen as a massive compliment to get selected. In fact The Norwegian princess second in line to the throne has just been selected and the king is awfully proud I'm sure he is. I have another question one here from B Brian Sage, who you may remember is not your biggest fan Oh, I don't. I tend to forget those who don't like me Hi chaps Odd that Tresa, as he calls you, is obsessed by linguistics when any long word is mispronounced and doesn't even know what sweet bds. Wh Where did the bomb fall in? where did the drone? Galuts.ong? I feel for the neats, but remember that they voted in droves for the ill prepared, ill experienced, totally clueless socialist government that through increases in minimum wage and employers NI, has destroyed virtually all entry level jobs. She needn't worry about I don't really under understand this phrase, but maybe you do. She needn't worry about Masi Mara Getting into Oxford as she is the daughter of a well known socialist historian with royal correspondent pretentionss. He's a wank Odd that the girl is named after a volcanic crater in Africa, but so many kids these days are named after the place where they were conceived Brian spent a long time crafting the email. I think he' really crush on me. I think he does About the dAft idea of GCSC Romanian Please let her know that forty percent of Romanians speak English ninetinety five percent of Romanians are learning English from primary school onwards, and English dominates the curriculum as the first foreign language And of course, English is the first language of her beloved EU Question As we trained Mark Carney by giving him an entry level job at the Bank of England. Should we now ask him to come back to run the UK, he's the only politician who makes sense Thank you for all that Coreory lets you do It's interesting, isn't it? It's a fan of Carnie, and so am I. So we do have somewhere converging interests. It extxtraordinary to me that people believe learning English is somehow a substitute for their own heritage language, especially when it's a Latin language and a gateway to learning so many others. And it gives you an understanding of your own country's culture and writers and history. Why wouldn't you want that for people to have migrated to this country in their droves, work hard and are keen to embrace the English system. Why wouldn't you allow them to expand their critical thinking and to recognize an additional skill that they have? I don't understand people's issue with providing the GCSE rotor with an extra qualification When we've got so many others like Japanese and Biblical Hebrew, I just don't get the resistance to it. It's not going to cost anything. And all it does is incentivize children to hold on to another skill set, another ability, which is what we're meant to be doing, skilling up are young people. I've got one more question Hey, Jesiny. Just a little request from me, I appreciate you don't like Andy Banham. I respectfully disagree with you about that he's done a lot of good work on Hillsborough, which is something close to my and my community's heart. Can I ask you also to do a bit of a deep dive on the candidate who iss very closely second behind him, Robert Kenyon. He said some things that as a woman actually make me feel quite unsafe I've included a screenshot and actually I thought she's going to do the crowd of Audlderman one, but her screenshot is reform UK's Maker field by election candidate, Robert Kenyan previously came women, canan't drive abortions for vanity purposes to shag anyone they want. He admitted, quote, I'm sexist, sorry, but I am that goes back to Trade Union members voting reform. That is the kind of candidate that they want to endorse. C gently question the use of the word unsafe there Yeah I mean because he's been sexist and doesn't like women drivers and makes assertions about women having abortions How does that make someone feel like? Oh, it does because it's the tone because what you do is you set a benchmark. We've seen it with racist attacks going up in the wake of the coarsening of the political and public discourse in the wake of Brexit. Actually when you lower the public bar, you also then lower standards all aroundound and you see what I know you hate being referred to as toxic masculinity being meted out not just online, but actually in a very real and visceral sense behind closed doors on streets in schoollyards. W we end the pod here? I think we might because whatever I say here is now going to be misinterpreted, not least by you You're holding up your book, which is called Letest We Forget. Why? Letest We forget, I won that debate and my book's ninety nine p on Kindle And my book The Generals is out on Thursday. And it got that bit worory. If every person who is an avid listener of the podcast bought the book, it would get into the Sunday Times T ten bestestsellers And I'll be a car bootip switch. Cy Corey, I used to regard Corey as a very loyal person. he's over you, but's I think he is. You know it's the year of me peddling mischief by Exactly. Undermining you undermining your brand. Corey used to be a young pup fan with big wide ares. No, the mistake I made with Cory was teaching him how to play hardball and now he plays it with me and me sometimes. I don't think he likes either of us. Fucker. Let's exterminate him. b This has been a Global Player original production