Listener Questions and Closing Remarks

This is a Global Player original podcast I have a real issue with the language the Farons used personification of dogwesop politics in a suit. How does rage manifest in many individuals? It manifests in physical acts in protest. Well, that may be, but I think you're using this as an excuse to reinforce your own prejudices against him. He's got a long standing record on this. Welcome to the End of Week where Politics meets history with me Ian Dale and she Tessa Dunlop, I'm so busy today. I've got a lot going on in my brain. You've been to lunch at a very posh restaurant. Actually I have two, but not as posh as the one you've been to. Yeah, and I was trying to ingest the very expensive pudding at rules. What did you have? oldest continuous restaurant in Britain Can you tell me what year it was founded? Something like seventeen eighty four. seventeen ninety eight. That wasn't bad, was it? What was going on at the time? seventeen ninety eight, William Pitt the younger was Prime Minister Big international event big international trend. war the war of Spanish succession. Well, it' the Napoleon opened his campaign in Egypt. Oh was it? Yeah, I was kind of moving into serious Napoleonic territory when we're constantly I soon saw him off though, didn't we? It took a while actually. It did take a while, but nearly another twenty years. We got there in the end. And arguably it wouldn't have been a brilliant time to open a restaurant, an oyster bar Covent Garden to be more specific, but Thomas Rle went ahead with it anyway. And soon he was attracting all the Randys Rkes the Randy's no. Do not mean Dan I's gonna say. They probably were Randy as well. Loads of Rand' because actually there's a special window seat. Edward went handner with Lily Language. Yeah, you're absolutely right, Randy. But that word has fallen into disuse, hasn't it in this country now? where you very rarely ever hear it wasas in my childhood it was used a lot Well I'm trying to think which category we fell into today I'm going to quote rakes, dandies and superior intelligences. Well, definitely not the latter. I was actually thinking it is the latter Be you'd like to think so, given that you have a doctorate. Yeah, and it was the seventieth birthday party of my PhD supervisor's wife and you've never sat in a more qualified room Eeritus professors former obstetricians I spoke to a pediatrician who retired. he's eighty five. He retired in something like two thousand one or two. I worked out that he was sixty when he was retired. He has a great life. They live in the National Park up in Yorkshire go on walking holdays in Copenhagen for weeks on end. They have expensive lunches in rules And I said, so hang on a minute. you've been retired from the age of sixty He said, yes, and at the time there was considerable research that showed if you worked for another five years, you were only likely to live then another three years. Whereas if you retired at sixty, you live for another twenty years. And I said, economically, forgive me for pointing this out. We'd all be quids in if you'd just retired a bit later and died a bit sooner You do know how to make friends andplious people, don't you? Oh, it's okay, thenen I got stuck into pudding I've been to Rules a couple of times over the years. I think the first momentment was probably the late nineteen eighties and I suspect it hasn't changed at all. Well, having never been to Rules before, the oldest continuous restaurant in London, but I did get my husband to film me walking up and I don't know I'm to post it becausecause it gave me a visible panty line. You went to a lunch with your husband? Yeah because he likes Py Weirdly and I think that's being foreign or maybe just stambing Romanian He loves what I call genteel civilised extreme Englishness, Do that make sense? You can't get more extreme English than that place. And interestingly, actually, Valerie is a British Jew and I was sitting next to her delightful first cousin, Prue. And you know, me being me, I' taken from the pediatrician, we' managed to do the job. You have managed to not call a paedophile Do Do you remember all those vigilante things in Ports of the years ago? were these vigilantes? I can't remember what had happened. There hadd been some big pedophile scandal And pediatricians were being attacked in their homes because people didn't understand the difference between what a pediatrician is and a pedophil. Thank you for presupposing that I'd be one of those people who turned around and not only accused him of economically ripping the You know what you like. You know what you're like, Tessa. Well then I said to Pri. couldould you you know talk to me and both H and Husand were really interesting on this h a British Jewish woman originally heritage three generations ago from Eastern Europe to me about your If only Id mental identity or relationship with Israel And both of them went, well, that's a difficult question. but we had this really fascinating discussion And where I think it was helpful, they both said It's less with the land and more with the state thenen they explained that from the point of view of so many British Jews It's actually because most of them have relatives and friends there. So it is automatically personal whether you go way back into the Bible or not, it's actually my first cousin lives in Tel Aviv. And it's also personal because of course it is the last place of refuge for any Jew. Any Jew throughout the world can go and live in Israel no questions' asked. And it was about the establishment of the Jewish state, but it did make me think it's a bit like I feel closer, I think. had accusations of this leveveled at me on my Instagram where people say, why aren't you more vociferous on other wars? Why do you prioritize Ukraine? I would say arguably because the greater existential crisis from a European point of view, but also it's because I look at my Moldovven mother in law And she's genetically a rzzler paper away from the Ukrainians are getting bombed. And actually the Ukrainian frontline is also the Republic of Moldova's frontline. I follow someone on Instagram called Keelin K A E L A N He's a young journalist, probably I don't know, twenty three, twenty five, maybe And he does investigative reports. he spent the last four months in Ukraine And honestly, it's the most brilliant journalism And he is now back in Ireland. And he's discovered this massive aluminium plant or aluminum if you're of that persuasion, on the west coast of Ireland in some little village that nobody's ever heard of, and it is producing aluminium And it's being shipped to Russia every single week through the English channel, up through the Baltics and being used to manufacture weapons for the Russian war in Ukraine He thinks this is an outrage. He can't get any Irish politicians to take it seriously. And he's done some brilliant reporting on it. I'm hoping to get him on my program tonight because I think this needs a really much wider airing. So give him a follow on X or Instagram Keelan reports is his handle. Might this be the very same Instagram reel that I have also watched and the same Ireland that spends one percent of his GDP on defence allows and pretends that it's neutral. And that's where ultimately the fault line of the EU project, I think, will fall in the future. Increasingly, they're going to have to walk towards defence because we've seeen NATO has now become this contested entity. And actually how can you have a coherent defensive policy when you've got a mouth that speaks in two different directions because of the sheer size and nature, disparate nature of the European project. Just to tell people what we're going to be talking about in this podcast We're obiously going to be talking about the developments in the tragic Henry Novak murder We're also going to talk about the origins of Canada, which you said you wanted to talk about today and I thought I don't really know what the origins of Canada are. so I'm going to be as interested as our listeners in that, I hope. what is? think's And and now just with M S seememingly pointless little brother suddenly becoming an MSP. you know seemingly pointless Clenda. I say seem knows, I'm saying it lovingly because I'm about to move on to him in just one second. But seemingly pointless Canada, suddenly, whoa Mark Carney's striding the international stage like a colossus and Little Britain is sort of shrinking under the duve, trembling the ced armor slightly in. I think we do need to look far harder at the Canadian model and see what nowadays we can learn from it. just because you flagged up Instagram I was talking to Duncan and he did his maiden speech in Hollyroood and he said, I'm not going listen to any more of your podcasts until you listen to my maiden speech. I've listened to one hundred twenty four hours of your podcast. My go shit. I'm sure there's better ways to spe That ought to disqualify him for the Scottish Parliament, reallyally, didn't it? That's what I thought. Anyway, he said, What did you think? I said, Oh, you're so wrong. I said, I've watched it You said, it's only six minutes. I've listened to one hundred and twenty four hours. It was only a six minute maiden speech which she learned off by heart and it was focused Dominly Yeah. And I always admire people that do that. You should know that, but I'll explain why you don't fully know that in a minute to the listener. By the way, Coree is off today I you won't know this, but yesterday, U Was it yesterday, the day before Corey messaged me to say I'm feeling really, really ill. I said, Well, don' come into work then. No, no, I've got to because I'm going on holiday the next day and people think I'm shirking. I said, No they won't because everyone knows you Coreory. you're not a shirer. I' a hard worker Yeah Anyway, he did come into work and we sent him home again after about a couple of hours. And so do you know want to know where he is? The least likely place that you can ever think that Corey Froggatt would appear at? Copenhagen? No. Well hes he's gone to Barcelona. Why has he gone to Barcelona, Tessa? I don't know going to a rave It bit weird for a man who wears Crooy and studied linguistics at Cambridge. You've interrupted my train of thought. I do want to flag our hashtag. This is the first time we've had a female producer, so if it's more smooth than you should. it's the lovely Lauren, who's come to us. How long have you been with us, Lauren at LBC a year next week. she came She's already printed off my notes twice and I like her very much. Can we get back now to my thesis on your Instagram? Intersecting with my littleother brother' maiden' speech She said, it's only six minutes. I've listened to a whole hundred twenty four hours of you I said, not only have I watched you off by heart speaking about children in care The subject of these first debates in the House is always quite broad to give new MSPs a chance to speak to their subject It was about ambitions for Scotland. Obviously the anticipation was it would go down constitutional lines. Duncan isn't particularly interested in the Constitution, certainly doesn't want independence. So he spoke to children in care and he got some people on Twitter said it was the best speech they'd ever heard We're going to come to Twitter, by way, and the interference of Twitter in our electoral system. that's related to Henry's tragic murder I said, Well, not only did I watch it, but so did Michelle, my American media trainer friend, and Ian Dale watched one minute of it. I said, whichich speaks to today's attention span. You might want to curate your speeches so they're not six minutes, but one and a half minutes. But Anyway, I should flag up that it was very well received north of the border And Duncan said, That's good because I won't be learning another one off by heart The thing is though there is a difference between learning things off by heart and just being able to stand up and give a speech, which you haven't written down. you just go ahead and do it. That's the most difficult. But you need to learn them off by heart until you're ready to do that. Yeah you do. So he's doing the right thing.'s you know't I very rarely I can't learn speech off by heart because I can't memorize So why? Brackets because he's a lazy bast. No, I just don't have the kind of brain. It's why I've never done acting because I would have loved to have done acting can't memorize lines. So I either have a full written text, which if I'm doing a lecture, I will read from a text, but I can do it in a way that people don't really realize I'm doing it But generally, I now I only give speeches on subjects I know something about, so I'll just go and do it off the carf. I think that in five years time one assumes he will be able to do that. But early on in your Virgin speech, I think you can be forgiven for either reading it or learning it off by heart. However, he and another friend, Oliver both have picked issue with your unadulterated lack of criticism for Nicola Sturgeon. I said to Duncan by means of an excuse. We're not going to go down that Sturgeon rabbit hole again ' because we've covered her extensively that I said on a personal level, you liked her and respected her to which he responded She is a control freak who was a poor relation to the talent that was salmon Good at communication, but not action couldn't deliver as had never had a real job. Her judgment was awful and blind to criticism That doesn't stop you from being able to like somebody evenven if I agree with all of that and I agree with some of it but not all of it, if I want to have a friend, it's because I like them and I don't necessarily have to agree with them. I don't have to approve of what they've done. No, but I think you're for her veered into a failure to criticise. her here is another example of a text I've received, Listen to yourour Pod and couldn't quite believe the benefit of doubt Ian Dale gave to Nicola Sturgeon gargantuan levels that actually made him sound hopelessly naive or more likely too close to these politicians. close to, I've only met her probably four or five times I genuinely like her. I don't see why this is seen as a human failing on my part that I kind of can like people that other people don't like. in You're just so inclusive. You're such a broad church Yeah, and I think' friend I think that's a strength Indeed, I was talking about your many strengths with that other political friend of mine, Gareth Thomas. Is it okay for you to have political friends? MP When they can do things that you want them to? Labour MP for Harow West. He used to be in government in the Blair Brown years and I said to him, again the idea of reshuffling and getting a new Pime Minister. I said, I can't be doingal with it. It's time consuming and it's not what we' voted for And he then made I a salient point on the power of Tony Blair, even if you found him reprehensible. And that was he could speak to national pain And he could tell a story. And he didn't say it, but basically he was inferring that's what Stahalmer doesn't have. and therefore you've got to do something about. We've talked about that a lot. Before we go on to the main meat of the podcast, and I'd like to you not to roll your eyes and tut at this But today is an important day because my latest book is published Stop it I'm not roading my eyes I'm sniggering. You see people often ask, whyy are you friends with Tessa? Be she's horrible to you. and you are being horrible to me. because I'm actually really proud of this book. The Ian said, haveave you seen the cover to my new book And I said, do you know, I might have flicked over it and given it a cursory like on Instagram Does it by any chance have a cover that pertains to a Jilly Cooper novel akin to Riders Well it does have the Duke of Wellington on a horse.. It does, yes, you're right. With a little bit of a view of his knacers. Was he a rake or a dandy? He was certainly a sexual I'd say he was a bit of a rake personally. Sexual swordsman of Europe, apparently.. Only person he didn't Coke was his wife Lauren just interrupted in my ear and said break soon, which was a little bit too assertive for my life. Let's do what she says. No Well Actually, he used to, didn't he? C he used to intervene, but he's given up now. If Lauren thinks it's time for a break, No don't give up. I was saying it out of love, not criticism. No, But just to say this book It's six hundred pages long. Oh God. Like this podcast when you get your. I haven't written word of it apart from the preface. and it's profiles, sixty nine different generals going back through from Sun Su, I don't know how to pronounce that, up to David Petreeus. and shut up. I hope everyone who enjoys my contribution to this podcast and abores Tessa's innate rudeness and unfriendliness will go out and buy this book. which you can do so if you want a sign copy, I can even personally inscribe it to you. Good present for your dad or your granddad for Christmas. Oh that's so gendered. By the way. Aleast did you notice that Lauren asked for a break as soon as you started talking about your book She didn't mean anything by it. It's a break nowian. It's thirty pounds in hard back. Shut up. ate you. Good Quite extraordinary, isn't it that after this appalling murder and the conviction of his murderer, Henry Novak has become the secondary story and the policing of his murder to the Nigel Farraage Ferore Yes, I think that is interesting. And there is part of me that thinks that The media in general are a little bit to blame apart from Niiger Farge himself being to blame I do think the media is slightly to blame here for ping it up beyond possibly what it merited But we can't get away from the fact that Njl Farraage used what I think is Fyiancendary language He got very upset when Matt Awley misquoted him on newsnight about this rage comment Basically Farge gets up early for a heavily curated news conference The morning after videoos being released and he talks to the measured and extraordinary response of the parents of Henry, who I think he'd spoken to Perhaps. then he effectively pushes their agenda and wishes to one side and says, but actually, we should be responding with and I quote pure cold rage to a murder under the ans of the police, etcer News night misquoted him with the words white rage for which they then led their subsequent broadcast with an apology, led it, and also removed the entirety of the previous night's broadcast from IPlayer And Victoria Drbishia did it on Twitter as well. Um, I got A message from my boss this morning say like a word at four o'clock this afternoon And I thought, o goirl, what did I say last night sort of on the program about this? Because I addressed this subject But I did u but I remember saying It was his words following that that I thought were the problem where he didn't condemn the violence in Southampton that had taken place one Tuesday night And I do remember saying, look, I don't have a problem with him saying sort of the what was it cold hard rage. because I said I think most people feel that way But if you put the word white in there, you can understand why he and Reform would have been very sensitive to that. So I'm not sure I think that Newsnight needed to give it the prominence they did, I have to say But if you hold your hands up and admit that you got something wrong, well then you have to suffer the consequences. Can I say I couldn't disagree with you more? I have a real issue with the language that Farroold used. I have a real issue with him once again posturing as a dog whistle personification of dogwesop politics in a suit. But I don't think that phrase did that do actually, the way in which he asked Britain to feel enraged actuallyctually that by definition, how does rage manifest in many individuals? It manifests in physical acts, in protest? Well, that may be, but I think you're using this as an excuse to reinforce your own prejudices against him. Whereas I I mean, I come under criticism on my show for doing the exact opposite and giving him a free pass on things On this, I haven't gi them a free pass at all, but on that phrase, I don't you can over interpret it if you want But that to me is not the problem. The problem is when he sees Tommy Robinson leading his thugs into a violent protest and won't condemn it, despite the fact that I know for a fact He can't stand Tommy Robinson.bsolly That's where you're n It's not rubbish at all. Let's just rewind back to one of. Tommy Robinson from being involved in his party. He won't have anybody who's a member of the EDL in his party. Now you can say that's performative all you like, but he's got a long standing record on this. What Nigel Farage does is with his super middle class credentials public schoolboy, banker, banker p. I'd just say that you're middle class is sure's not I'm not wrong with being middle class. I know, but I'm not the one. That is taking the narrative right up to the line callalling, and I quote emergency address to the nation, insisting not that we lean into the generosity of Henry Novak's grie strricken parents, but rather that we listen to him with his you Rge And triggers so many of the people who are under his spell, his influence and it's like for throwing a match into a pre Of watchatches it blow up and you say, o, yes, he conveniently distances himself from Tommy Robinson. but what he effectively does is he throws the baton to Robinson over the barricade, knowing fine, Robinson will run into the flames. If you ask me, Robinson is an infinitely more honest individual. Yes, a thug but more honest about what he absolutely presents Well, I think that he As you say, takes language up to the limits sometimes and sometimes goes over the border of respectability And I deprecate that just as much as you do. And I think you're right that he has gone against the wishes of the parents here. Delliberately, I, deliberately, of course. No,, you're abolutely right on that. I'm not arguing with you on that. I don't think he should have done what he's done There is an argument about two tier policing But now is not the time to have that argument. We need to wait until the IOPC issues its report. and then debated in a calm way. And this is where and I hope you'll agree with this I think Kemmy Badenoch has played this absolutely right. She said some similar things to Farage in some ways but not in a way that is designed to whip up The public I want to actually stick with Farage if we may because I think both Kiss Stalmer, Kemmy Baden are Davy that will bystand us to something that's playing out that will have significant repercussions, not just on the macering, Is it makering or macering? Maker By election, but also Make a field. Make a field. There we are. there in the air. wrrong footage. But not just that we'll have real implications about the result of that by election, potentially, therefore, who will lead us? because What's interesting is I don't think, although I've accused Nigel Fis as some pretty dark staff. He knows the British public, he knows about needing to grow his base We know from polling and research that people who are potential reform voters worry Those on the sort of soft side of reform, I, former conservatives or maybe labour voters, they worry about being seen as racist if they vote reform and I don't think any of this current debate. plays to the base that Farage needs to grow. I away from the extreme right into the middle. And the reason He's having to move to the extreme right is because Ruper Low is eating the ground from under his feet on the right. He's canvassing an individual in the microfield by election and he is being supported by an external foreign player in the form of Elon Musk is a real issue further down the line for our democracy. I don't support Farage, but I take greater indignation at the way in which Elon Musk is amplifying Rupert Leow's campaign and actually beneficially, you could argue, I think will end up delivering Andy Burnham's victory. in Manchester because those critical seven or eight percent of votes that would have otherwise gone to reform will go to restore percent deree. I think there was anecdotal proof of this last night in my program when a caller rang in. who said he was a reform UK member. He completely deprecated what Nigel Farage had said in terms of refusing to condemn the violence And I said to him, I said, Well What about what Kemy Betenoch said said, Well, I've been really impressed by that. And I said, So are you considering moving back to the Conservatives? He said, Well Not yet, but it's made me think And in a sense that's all that Kemy Badenot can do because I do think it's difficult. once you've decided to shift your vote to another party, if you go back to your original party, you're kind of admitting you've made a error And I don't think people will be willing to do that until after they've actually put their cross in the reform box. What's interesting as well about the timing of all this is Farat is anywhere on a back foot. You remember, he was always convening those early morning news conferences recently, until this week he's gone very quiet. This is all because of the five million pound donation, the cryptocurrency dude who lives over there in Thailand it looks like potentially dirty money certainly doesn't serve Farrage's anti establishment gambit, but also the other strong wicket that reforms built its support on is illegal immigration. Britain as a nation, I think we're no more racist. In fact, I would say arguably less racist than most countries in Western Europe, certainly that's the experience of my minority ethnic friends But we do have a real issue with illegal migration, asylum seekers. People definitely feel there's a lack of control. The security of our borders plays very, very well and not just to the hard right. But we know those numbers are coming down. Migration numbers are coming down. It's not the silent issue it was even six months ago. and Nigel Farage is having to plow fresh ground at a time when he's being threatened by the right and he's being undercut by his own personal finances The political donation figures came out today and reform topped the league table with nine million pounds in the last quarter That which it however you view it is a big achievement and When you're looking to fight a by election, I mean, okay, there are financial limits on what you can spend in a by election but it puts you in a pretty good position U and it also I'm assuming that they continue this record of fundraising It puts him in a superb position in the run up to the next election. I think as talking to your brother actually about you know, campaigning. and the money, the resources you need to run an effective campaign. He won his seat but by literally a few hundred votes. When he got donations, he put them into Facebook adverts. How can you prove that those Facebook adverts made a difference? But Elizabeth Oakshot, youll recall she did her research and proved that canvassing or trying to win a seat in Westminster, you need approximately a hundred thousand pounds. Money really matters when it comes to democracy. Well, my campaign in two thousand five I reckon cost me personally forty thousand pounds And yet the spending limits during the campaign are about twenty thousand but you were allowed to spend about another twenty thousand in the run up, but if I included sort of my loss of earnings and all the rest of it, it's a massive amount of money Just finally to double down on that Elon Musk influence. He's such a curious figure, isn't he Elon Musk? because he's fallen out with Trump He actually is providing really vital intelligence support to Ukraine through his stalling in a way that I think if he was still in the pocket of Trump, he wouldn't necessarily be doing But at the same time, I just He did go to China with Trump Yeah, but he's no longer in the administation No, but he still obviously has good relations, otherwise he wouldn't have been on Air Force O He's a big player. He's one of the richest men in the world, can there afford ignore each other. And the thing is, you look at some of the innovations that he's doing at the moment And you have to admire him. I mean, I think he's a reprehensible character. I certainly wouldn't want him as a friend But a lot of the technological advances that he's involved with are amazing Let's look now Musk's direct influence on this Rupert Lowe character. who's not a polemicist. He's not a speaker, he's not a personality, he's a very rich individual with unpleasant, hard right politics. Low has had twelve posts on X with at least ten million views Since he launched a store in February, Farage has had no posts with as many views despite having nearly three times as many followers as low. And by the way, those posts are sometimes also getting reposted by Musk himself. It's what's known as algorithmic patronage and it's all important in democracy. It's terrifying Yeah. and I mean, I've been getting a couple on Instagram as well, which obviously isn't influenced by Elon Musk It is all to do with algorithms And I mean I've never met Rupert Low. I first came across him when he was chairming the Southampton Football club and was quite a controversial character there He's a very successful businessman, clearly has earned a lot of money in his career one way or another U and I think he could he could be The person that delivers another Labour government in twenty twenty eight, twenty twenty nine Luren says it's time for a break. Well, we must o bey Lauren. Indeed So Canada Which is a farw country which we in this country seem to know very little at all. and I include myself in that. I have been to Canada, but only for like a couple of days each time We think of Canadians as Americans with a slightly weird accent. No, we don't I do. I don't think of Canadians as anything like Americans. They have a very similar accent except they pronounce some vowels rather differently. So a house becomes a hoose I know but The entire model under which they've been governed for the last two hundred years is really very different from the American. Of course it is, I know, but I don't judge a people by the way they're governed but you shouldn't judge judge byy their accent Well, I kind of do, they look like Americans. I suppish you could say they look like Brits. Not nearly as fat, Oh so you judge people by their weight do you? I'm just pointing out that they don't actually look like Americans. American's a far more diverse country, actually,'s far more mult. That is very true I want to first of all, speak to the contemporary The clear sighted Mark Carney Can I quote him from Davos? I think's a great He was a great governor of the Bank of England. I think he's an impressive politician. Yeah. I'm going to quote him from Davos this year. when he declared We know the old order is not coming back We shouldn't mourn it Nostalgia is not a strategy Brilliant that because you know, we've just been talking about reform and restore ad in vinitem all their're campaigning to an idea of something that once existed that could no longer exist. and shouldn't exist in modern times And actually the way To move on is to move forward, but you do have to understand your history, I think, to be well informed And actually what we could pay attention to is Canada is thriving as a middle ranking power Well, everything you said though and everything he said in that quote that youve said is a statement of the bleed and obvious Obviously, you can't live your life as a nation by just hulking back to a glorious past Now. I'm not sure when Canada's glorious past would have been particularly. We all know when ours was, but we don't live our lives in this country by hulking back to.'t huge part of what informed Brexit. But actually because of Brexit, I think There's even more reason for us to tack towards the Canadian model and look at what they're doing well. What is the Canadianel in your view. I just first of all, Well, let's go back and look up where Canada ceased to be British or how it uncoupled from us so effectively and so smoothly Okay, becausecause so often we model ourselves on America But actually why? so we lost our precious thirteen colonies. and since then, they've driven forward and become this all consuming, gas guzzling, mighty superpower, which we can never hope to emulate'll be anything like because they're giant There's Canada S We unoupled from very wisely. We didn't want to replicate the loss of America. and so we thought very hard about it in the nineteenth century there was a brilliant Son of the Mance, Scottish born founding father effectively of Canada. C you name him? Really, he was the colossus of the mid nineteenth century, late nineteenth century Canadian model Isn't it interesting that you can't even name him? Is it like not being able to name Abram Lincoln, really in Canadian. Could you have done it before you'd done that research? Not the point. I've done that research. Yeah, I know, but you you wouldn't have o, come off me. You'll never know you. You would never who is it? John A McDonalds. Never heard of him. and why is your phone still on It's just cheering because they've heard the name of their favourite part. But you go, admit it, you had not heard of that person before switch a fucking phone off. The founding father of Canadian sovereignty, he set the country on its path towards what we associate Canada with. Give me the four words that we associate Canada with, except for Americanisms. Mounties No, in terms of their national qualities Pragmatism. Funnily enough, that is one of the four wors on my list. Yeah. I'll quit while I'm ahead Decency, moderation, orderliness I'd go with that. Now we're going to look at the motto, the Canadian Constitution's motto Peace. order and good governance Peace, order and good government compared to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. One is the collective, the other is the individual. Which one would you want to model yourself on? Canada, peeace order and good governance O pursuit of happiness, you know What does that even mean? Pursuit of happiness. Anything to be anti American really, isn't it? No, but it iss fascinating. more the more you think about it, you've come to the conclusion that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a bad thing because it's American. It's not a bad thing, but I feel that it's more rousing than the Canadian one I know, but In a world where we're all constantly triggered by Do we not want to keep our lives? Do we not want to have liberty? Do we not want to have happiness? Surely that encapsulates the human spirit? There was just something, I felt more collective about the Canadian. But that's the thing. you're obsess about the collective What's interesting is Canada had to act in a collective capacity, the Confederation, as it was known, to stave off America. There was a presumption throughout the nineteenth century pretty much that they'd slip into America, they've just become part of the United States That was especially the case in the wake of independence and then again post civil War. And what was fascinating about this cananny mance man who went for strong economic nationalism political coalitions and compromise is he drove a path And you know, at the same time as he embraced giving Canada dominion status, so basically an autonomy. It was like a super devolution which is going to ultimately lead to independence always still leent into that British identity when it mattered to hold back America. But what was key to the success model of Canada It's so boring when you break it down infrastructure greatreat railways. So they could link their country up, attract other provinces. I think Newfoundland doesn't become part of Canada until much later in the twentieth century. But rather than people drifting from north, Canada into America south and there was considerable migration, if you've got great infrastructure and you've got strong national economics, people also travel from east to west They link up the great Prairie lands. They become Canadian. That's great. but everything you've just said could be said of America as well But what makes Canada exceptional is they are smaller than America. They don't have the mighty super.' massively small. I mean, in landmass, if you actually look at the map, they're not that different. I know, but in terms of the population, they're much smaller. And also the fertile and resource capacity of that land. That' the population of Canada. think It's about forty million. Yeah, that's what I've got in my head. Let me look it up Becauseuse I mean that is quite something. when you look at the size of the two nations and America' what three hundred sixty million, something like that What is the p acculation of exciti. But what you have is effectively this Cederation a one people and a one government, even though they're a bilingual nation, of course, we know there's French Catholics and early on there's an act to install Catholic schools, a recognition of embracing difference, so not everyone assimilating to the same model. So instead of just having five poples and five governments, you have them coalesced in a one people, one government model. And the more I read about it, the more I was like, yes. and actually weirdly Th giant provinces that looked in different directions, that had different religions, different languages speaks in some ways today where you have a Britain with three of our nations pulling in different directions led by nationalist leaders forty one point five million in twenty twenty four that was the population of Canada Do you not think, though that it's a much bigger achievement for the United States to have kept together as a single entity, as a federal entity Then Canada, how many provinces are there in Canada? seeven or eight? They had a thumping great civil war Yeah I know they did, but since then I mean you haven't heard anything about Texas or California or any other state ceding from the Union, have you Asolutelyly enormous and they don't have a giant sitting on their arse, which Canada does And what's fascinating is the way in which when it was required, they weaponised their British identity and their connection to Britain. And I think it's interesting given this Commonwealth of Nations how on so many levels we can draw from each other I think almost holds Britain back In the same way that sometimes I don't think England learns from the Scottish or the Welsh model necessarily when it could especially in terms of education, I think that the Scottish model, the exam system is certainly much superior And Britain tends to not look for inspiration from other Commonwealth nations because we think of them as our sort of baby brothers and sisters, the second cousins trailing in our wake, when actually They're inspirational models. Canada is an inspirational, multi National highighly sophisticated, high performing democracy And we not only should lean into it, but learn from it. And again, everything you've just said could be said about the United States. No, Ian. It could.. Then we're talking a mid ranking post industrial power. America isn't our partner in that respect. It's a thumping great superpower. It's an uncontrollable giant What we've always done is tack towards America when I think we'd be far happier if we tried to have a really deep, meaningful relationship with We've always had a good relationship with Canada. but one that allows us to learn from them Be I think we never give space for that because we've always put ourselves at the. What do you want to learn from? I mean, I'm sure there are things that we can learn from? But what would they be? Well, I've just sightited them all strong economic nationalism, better infrastructure, Perhaps if there were better trains literally running up and down and across Britain, we wouldn't all be wanting to see. You think the Canadian train system is better than the British one the nineteenth century experience The Canadian Pacific Railway was the lasting achievement in terms of nation building in the latter part of that century And when the liiberals didn't sufficiently invest in it, they lost power We have an extensive rail system. I mean what are we supposed to learn from them? I mean their trains travel about half the speed of ours as well as if they like. obviously since the lateeenthentury things they moved on,' moved ont to the automilile, but goodness knows what. But I think the point being is invest in your country investing good infrastructure problems, and we know that we've failed to do that in this country. HS two is just one example This is something that's surprised me. I suspect it's going to surprise you. Canada is actually larger America in total landmass They've got nine point nine eight million square kilometers. America has nine point eight three But yeah, but we know that it's about resources, isn't it? and capacity. they have got massive resources. I don't think probably the same as the Americans have. But I mean, they're not a poor country in terms of minerals and all that sort of thing. No, That's why Trump wanted them to become a fifty first state. But their population is one tenth U, but It's fifteen percent. I mean it's like saying, o Greenland's massive, know therefore, why isn't it more powerful? It's important to remember that acreage isn't everything. But I just I don't know, just on so many levels Just on Canada fas. Just round this off though, it is interesting that there doesn't seem to be any great Republican movement there to get rid of the King as a head of state if I was a Canadian And I wanted to be a fully independent country I wouldn't want to have a foreigner as our head of state You're not speaking as a Canadian that sits in the shadow of America And that's How does having a monarchy play any role in that? Look at the way they weaponised King Charles when they felt threatened by Trump last year. They flew the Dodery old bugger over there to speak in their parliament. He did a very good job of it too. He's not dtery. but he's not well, he is a bit old, but he's not a bugger The point is, you know, I said that with deep affection for Aain in context Actually he served his purpose because it's about identity. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean to say that most Canadians wouldn't necessarily think oK, isn't it about time we had our own head of state But remember Britain's serving a role, It's giving them an alternative a pushback point from the real threat, which has always been and always will be geographically and economically, America And what I think could inform us going forward is the way in which we've managed our relationship with the Canadians. And I think and I've always thought this, from devolution onwards, separation certainly with Scotland will sadly become an inevitability. But let's hope ultimately the relationship will be styled on a Britain Canadian model and not something much less friendly, for example, with the Republic of Ireland, which has always been more antagonistic anyway Again, it will be fraught and who knows what the next hundred years hold? because I think it willll take that long. but certainly the direction of travel sadly is towards independence. But it I'd hope it is in that model. I mean desespite arguing with you, I have found this discussion about Canada and Britain's history very interesting. I think maybe in a future episode we ought to look at the relationship between Britain and the Republic of Ireland and sort of how that has grown or grown apart in many ways over the centuries Should we move on to some questions? Yeah, we need a break, going to Ln? Indeed R right, this is from Nkki Larkin, who was a for the mini suuper fan and I'm sure is now the where Politics meeets History suuperfan. And by the way, if you do want to send a question in for either of us or both of us, where pololitics meeets history at gllobal. com or you can leave a question on the Instagram feed at where Politics meeets History Dear Professor Dale and Dr. Dunlock, she knows how to wind you up, doesn't she I thought it was a shame that Tessa picked you up on the use of the word ladies I use the word ladies frequently in work meetings as I'm celebrating the fact that more ladies are around the table in the business world If one of my team that is non binary is in the meeting, I make sure I use other terms There are still many barriers for women in business, onlyn two percent of venture capital funding goes to female founders, for example Therefore, being blind to gender overlooks that there is still much progress to be made, and the cancellation of many DEI programs by Trump has seeped into the UK job market Here is a question As the summer period is often a slow period for political news, what would you predict will dominate the headlines in the summer? Trump's deterorating health My new show from the Mandelen files or something else Do you wish to respond I think the summer is going to be sadly dominated with And it will be determined by what happens in the pending Manchester by election will be dominated domestically by who's going to lead the country from the autumn onwards. I think that's right. I mean the timing of this is really difficult to predict, isn't it? Somebody the person I was having lunch with today said, well, Did I think that there would be a new Prime Minister by the end of July? And I said, well, it's very difficult to tell because If the if Labour win that by election. and the victor of that by election then decides to launch an immediate coup against Armmer Starmer may well stand against him if he thinks that he can win And I don't know the answer to that at the moment. Starmer actually hasn't had a bad few weeks. H had a great few weeks. And if he I mean the Mandleson files were limp and tame I think Darren Jones and Pat McFadden have come out of it far worse than Starmmerhats So if he say he has some good economic news over the which he's had recently He has had a bit. Yeah, you're right Good migration figures depending on your political bnd? Iigration figures are actually quite good whatever your political bent is Unless you're trying to run a university and pull an international fees or your conffederation of British businesses you want certain skilled work. We did establish that drop off in international students has not been very mulk ents We disagreed on that. So well we did disagree, but I gave you the figures Right, Okay, carry on to disagree. Thean'sigures sometimes come from Chat GDP and just because he has a man's voice doesn't mean what he says we should be given more credibility than. Can we go to another question? I must apologise for being a man again Cut up your Purse. Right. No, I'll let you do it for me today. It would give you enormous pleasure. You'd have to find it first though. Ben Gory says, Hello Tessa. I just wanted to say I love the pod And thank you for sharing the Engelsburg ideas website, which is what gave me inspiration by the way, for the Canada. discussion He says with work at the moment and to be honest, smoking a little bit too much green in the evening, I've been struggling to keep upact mean smoking weed h disgusting. Oh, don't be so judgmental.amp. I don't like drugs. We don't do them then. No I don't. I've been struggling back to then, I've been struggling to keep a strict reading schedule These essays, Engelberg essays that is, are great to hit the history sweet spot with a link to modern times that makes it easy to digest. Love you and Ian, whilst I do tend to agree a little more with yourself and don't tame the tiger He doesn't end with a PSD cut off his penis. That actually didn't have a question, but I just likeked the tone of it and I knew that you'd curl your nose up at the weed. But I have got one here from Paula, which speaks to what I wanted to talk about anyway, the biot tapestry coming to London She says, did you hear on the news that apparently Britain has more potholes than France? And I did hear that because Macin and the French administration have said it's okay The biotapestry will not deteriorate when it is delivered by Laorie in these extraordinary sort of suspended shield like contraptions because what happens is the vibrations from the road that go up and down are going to be transmitted so that the vibrations end up impacting the tapestry as horizontal motions, not vertical motions, which are apparently less damaging. And it'll all be fine on the other side of the channel because it's been tested. But the French have warned we do have more potholes whichich speaks to the conversation we've just been having about Canadian infrastructure. Potholes are a big election loser and we do have way too many of them. We do have way too many of them. pothole on Pembury High Street meant that I couldn't get the train that I wanted this morning because you know how it's when you get onto the platform And it hasn't moved off, but it is about to move off and they won't let you get on it that happened to be Why is that got to do? Because of the pothole because it's got that there's They think there's a sink hole and it's literally about the size of a half a football on Panbury High Street, so they've coned it all off and there's a traffic control thing. right And the traffic control is two minutes before you can move. Um So I just hope the biotapestry goes up the M twenty, not the M two I don't know if you've been down the M two, but that is Veryump a very bumpy road indeed, whereereas the M twenty is very pleasurable. But can I just say how bitchy By the way, have they achieved the French to have to point out that we have more potholes amazing It is a bit. it did make me want to spit in their face. And I'm not even like that, you know, I don't throw cones inthampton What'd you takeate me for Um You see, I'm suffering from your disease now because I had a brilliant thing to say and I've forgotten what it was. Yeah att the end of the Canada debate, I turned around two and said I had such a good point to end on. It's flown out my head. What I really hate and I always always caution women against doing this, women of my age. They all blame the menopause and I'm like Didn't you ever have brain dropout before? Why do you pin it to your particular age and your gender? Because that to me is a disincentive from employing women of my age and gender. I don't think we should flag up our frailties in that way. Mask it, pretend it doesn't exist, take more drugs and shut up about it. Sorry if I'm unsympathetic. I really feel for people who have bad menopause symptoms, but for Christ's sake Don't flaunt that particular one, depending on your line of work, it should be said. But if you're in a job that requires you to have quick fire memory, then don't flag it up as a failing tied to your gender Biggest fan, Brian Sage has been back on. not on. He's like a stalker, I think, almost, isn't he? He says, Hi chaps, thans for featuring my previous email I write to make Ian laugh and Tereresa to call me a wanker So success on both counts Theeresa admits to being tone deaf and her inability to pronounce long words is symptomatic of this She's added to her South London woke regime by not only leaning in whilst reaching out, running around in circles whilst jumping to conclusions, being triggered while feeling it speaks to but also trying to find a safe space whilst finding one of the Greek restaurant owner' sons just a bit attractive. A very rounded attitude to life. see He's quite fond really. By the way, we've got a lot of response from the was fininisher, he's got question coming. UNESCOs stats on languages are worrying for her For example, around twelve million people are learning German and are largely school kids from adjacent countries. Likewise France, so there are some former French African colonies as well. Over one point three billion people across all continents are learning English as worldwide, it is by far the major language of trade, commerce, jobs and published research. It shouldn't be allowed to muscle out other people's cult. So the Linga Franca of the EU So sadly, Romanian and possibly even Fren German will become Let me finish. No, I don't become colloquialisms spoken solely in their home nations. So I wish her luck would GCSE Romanian, but doubt it will ever happen. Question. Oh no, I want to respond to that from another listener them. Kate Lee', because Brian, you bring him up so often. I think he's got only ph He does send in emails every week. Two weird incels will stop reading them out. Either don't read out anyone and we'll stop the producting me and him being ins. Yeah O could more if you send desperate, lonely Ian more emails, please This is from Katie. She said. She says G episode. This was last episode when you was still banging on about Brian. Great episode slightly soiled by Brian Cage. Please block him. Thank you. Misnaming Tessa and talking about her. She just misnamed him because it was sage Misnaming Tessa and talking about her daughter was an absolute CU blank blank move. I agree with Katie Enough. Well let's just go out early rather than ming Should the triple lock be discontinued as it supports those who, through a full working life have contributed to their pension by tax and national insurance to spend more in benefits to young people who've never worked All the best. I really enjoy the pod, but wonder are Rory and Alistair so broke that they have to do voiceovers for the ads on their pods And as for the news agents, it's just three folk being hysterical Both these pods could do with a Cry Well couldn't we all Ecept Cor is un horrible. We've got Luren who's saying it's now we wrapp the pod and I think we can cut that. she hasn't said that.ut Cut that bit, Lauren. No Brian Cage. No she's say No, she's not going to cut it. She's a valued listener. If you want to shed listeners, then we're in a very deep decline Thank you very toain listeners, not drop them. Please send your questions to at where politics meets history. That's the Instagram and I felter hard I just read out the ones I like. Yeah, exactly. whereereas I read them all out. Yeah, I know you do. indiscriminate. Yeah because that's how it should be. You're just so so conscious that you need to be stroked and have praise whereas I read out W's and all friends with everyone, even Nicholas Durgeent. Dear, dear. And Nigel F. Any much. Have a lovely weekend Bye And's the general's bouet Tod Have you bought your copy yet? Now I'm just downloading my own for ninety nine p on Kindle It's not available for ninety nine p on Kindle. Mineus. Yeah, was, because it's cheap tat Oh, no, it's okay next week. Goodbye Well go on say goodbye. Bye, bye. to the lovely listeners. They're plural now. We gotid of Brian we love you really This has been a Global Payer original production