Select Committee Appearance and BBC Future

This is a Global Player original podcast. We need to underscore just how dangerous this has been. peopleeople being burnt out of the houses Well, people are being dragged out of their houses. I have a great fear now That we are going to see the equivalent of the nineteen eighty one suummer riots. Do you remember those? Brixton was basically torched. Totstorth was torchued. Aas in Birmingham, Handansworth, I think, as well, Bristol. Once people do this sort of thing once, they then feel licensed to do it again. I always think that Northern Ireland is the most extraordinary success story of late in the British Isles, but I think this is a reminder of their unique past and how fragile the peace is. the way in which it's escalated, I think that's what's really taken me by surprise Very exciting day today. because Guess what? What? I have got the proof copy of my book Oh yes, we're starting with a book club, Cory This is my most important book ever. I know. it does look wonderful. It's in West Ham Colours and the title is haveave I said To March And you can be assured that by the time the book is launched because this is a prepof copy, Ian will have said far too much about his pride and joy, his surrogate baby, which he's been birthing for how many years? Actually not too long. I think I only started it in january twenty twenty five Okay S It's very long for a timees span so short. Well, the timees span is my entire life. Yes, well, I saw that. I think there's one hundred pages per decade approximately No, not quite. It's not six hundred pages long. It was interesting because I've just come from the home of Rory Stewart. Yeah, but I haven't finished all yet. and I was sitting there with his book. whichich you hadn't read? Which I did read of course prior the inter. No you didn't because you only got it yesterday. And actually the reason I was able to read it is because compared to your book How many writing in his book? it's quite bigger. How many pages? Well It doesn't matter how many pages because the writing's really big, it's super easy to read, but relative to yours, it's fewer pages and the writing is twice the size. Well done for saying fewer not less. Thank Brownley quite for that., how many pages? It is three hundred nineteen big letters m three hundred and ninety. Yeah, nineteen. Mine's four hundred and thirty. Right. I mean I'd like to give good value Clearly, I always think less is more, but that's the inherent tension of the podcast I read you the dedication page U okay. It's not to you. No, Ily gered. For John Be Is that your husband? Yeah Have I said too much There's nothing more I can think of to say to you But all you have to do is look at me to know that every word is true Beautiful It's like of. you know where that comes from? Is Its like a rhyming couplet in a card, a birthday card? No, it's from Don't Cry for me, Argentina, written byir Tim Bryice Okay I think it had the rhyming couplet thing though. I think I got that kind of vibe, don't you? I think that might be ripped now and put in greetings cards in. I'd go to an Instagram reel singing it, don't you? I think you started something. Well we let people know anyyway. to rist it. actually let's tell people we're going to talk about on the pod you go. I think there's some really important historic and political stuff to unpack about what's going down at the moment in Northern Ireland. I spent quite a long time there about eighteen months ago researching war and the way they remember war and actually there is so much contested identity issues. It couldn't be worse. It's being inflamed externally and internally And I really feel for the majority of the province who are bid peaceful people who thought they'd put the stuff behind them, but let's dig into what it tells us about the identity of Northern Ireland in the next section of the pod Let's do that. And we'll maybe have a word about Kemy Beedenock's speech about the Equalities Act and search and all of that. I did also a deep dive in what it means to be British to interview Rory Stewart, and I'd like to unpack that a little bit if we may We may now move to what you term as fluff and as Mara daughter, not allowed to mention her, by the way, says, I wouldn't listen to pod with laugh so I always reluctantly try and def fluff my fluff to make sure that it's acceptable. does Mara have a sense of humour? Well, funnily enough, she gave me the absolute winning question for Rory Stewart today. I'm always a bit scared to cross the threshold into her room. but I did put my head aroundound the door and I said I'm going to interview Rory Stewart, seeming she might not have even heard of him. because you know, teenagers live in their own little world And she said, Oh, yeah, I know who he is And I said, Oh what do you think of him? I occasionally listen to his podcasts, she said I can't bear it when he mentions his children. They're too personal, she said, and refer to their private lives too much. And in my head I'm thinking shhit they do it like tenth as much as us, whichich I' blame entirely on you. Does she not listen to our podcasts then Well, I don't encourage it, Ian for obvious reasons. No, I can understand that. It would leave him lead the Thor War Anyway, she said But if you want a question for him, ask him about his AI databases. That we'll come to it when we're unpacking British identity and stuff was turned out to be the killer. How did you go him with him? Well, I was very flattered that I was allowed across his rareified threshold in Central London. and I was also really intrigued to meet him. My late father, who was a factor on a Highland estate. I remember he died about twenty years ago and prior to that when he was quite ill and sort of The way ill people do, they listen intently to the radio. he shushed me. because this man was on the radio and he said it's a very impressive man speaking And lo and behold, it was Rory Stewart. I think he'd just walked across Asia six hundred kilometers and was on some prestigious radio four program. And at the time in my sort of young feminist, ubridgy way, I was like God, typical dad, you know, this posh sounding Scot speaking to my late father's idea of what it is to be masculine and heroic But it's interesting because I think He has the capacity to speak Perfect sentences It doesn't mean they all make sense, but it is a real skill and I think it's why he's become a world famous podcaster and is a better podcaster than he was politician. so I was riveted to meet him and it was fascinating because I was telling him about over the tea he was making me. I noticed tea drank herbal and I went for builders. But anyway, as a side is you We were talking What's the class difference? Well, I think I'd give my ro for his money But anyway, we're not gonna have a class standoff together Back to accept, I pointed out that, you know, my father worked for a lad And I said point that my late father made was that men are always much more classless. My dad was able to get on with the Ld and the other workers on the estate in a way that the women, so whether it's the woman who cleaned the h wholeay houses, my mother who ran the holdayhouses or Rose the ladd's wife but had a more fractious or a less easy relationship and Dad always said that women were more hung up on class men and I would argue that's actually about the secondary status of women so scrabbling over the scraps as it were, My father chose to be there, My mother was there in hock to my father. We were talking about this and this doesn't make sense, and I'm about to hand the baton to you And he said that's precisely how Nicola Sturgeon felt. Lo and behold, we were evicted from the house. We got a letter and not evicted. Within six months of dad dying, the house we'd lived in forty years we were told to get out off by the lair And Nicholas Sturgeon's grandfather worked for a lad and in the village that my grandfather was born in. Right, and a formative experience and I didn't realize this and one that didn't dictate the political course that Sturgeon subsequently took, but definitely informed it was the stain or the indignity of her late grandmother having to leave the home because the laird had sold it in which her grandfather had lived for so long and toiled for his lord and master And that interested me in that radicalism, Sturgeon's radicalism I think I understand that bit of it. I'm sad it's packaged in an independence form, but it made me feel fond of you briefly, Ian, because you like knica I found something I can like about Oh, thank goodness for that, it's takaking you a long time Did you like Rory? Well, funnily enough, on the question of liability, you may recall that you were worried he didn't necessarily like you U I'm not sure worried that you didn't like me. I mean we've had a little the odd contreant, I suppose on occasion. So I asked him? Yeah. I said, wants to know if you like him. I said, you didn't say words to that You did not say that. Words around that sort of effect and he said he really liked you. were. He said he really liked you. because And do you know what I then said at the end of that? I said, I don't know why Inne cares whether you like you or not I think he honestly. because he said to Alistair that he thinks I don't like him. Well, now you both really like each other, but I think he likes me less because I was like, first of all, I didn't know why my dad wanted to listen to you on the radio. I don't know why he even cares what you think anyway. He was fine. But he did set an alarm at the beginning of the interview. Did he? I said you don't need to set an alarm. That's a bit weird because he was interviewing Steve Rosenberg Did you tell her that I've already done a nineteen minute interview with Steve Rosen? I I didn't want to block your copy book in bigig the bigig manan. Do you know I mean? I've established you two like each other. I thought that was enough. But I said, donon't worry, I've got to go too because I'm doing a podcast with Ian Dale. So I just pushed back and I said, you don't need to set the alarm because I'll be out of here to do my podcast with the in Dale And I was out before that bloody. He said, Yeah, you don't know to upset him. you know what he can be like No, but there's a fond list. he laughed and he was cquettish. You know, I made him it was a little bit almost flirty that moment. It was a warmer moment Anyway, we're going to unpack British identity according to Rory Stew and why I take Is Ubridge with it in a bit. his book I enjoyed reading I've got his previous book to that, which I haven't read yet, but everyone tells me it's a really good read. so because I've got two weeks off work over the next two weeks, I'm really going to do a lot of reading. and I want to read Catherine Mayer's book on called Divide and Rule All about eightight Female rooyals, which I think you might like this as well Pone has quite a few scoops in it So I've got that on my list to read. I'm going to start reading Chpp Channel's Diaries volume three that Simon Heifer edited. I' just had lunch with Simon Heifer in the House of Lords, Lord Blackwater, as he now is. Um So I'm really looking forward to having some downtime On Rory Stewart's previous book, I think it's the one where he takes his very old father who was very high up in intelligence. Yeah. Well I think Rory was the spy at one point, wasn't it? Well he denies that and we wouldn't go anywere if he were. He denies it in a non denial way Anyway, his laddish style father who was h in intelligence. He took him on a walk along Hadrrian's Wall when he was eighty nine, so Roy most of the walking and his father sort of got in the car occasionally. But I think that is the book you have, It's a middle March ors not That's my one it's middle land. No there's another almost Somet like that. It's got a very strange picture of him on the front looking as if he's marching E exactly. Wse to that effect, or it might be politics on theedge. Anyways's. politics on the edge? Well then it's totally different from the one about Walking Harren's W. But the question that I want to unpack later in the show is Rory said he believes in agricultural subsidies because You know, it's about preserving the traditional idea of what Britain is I don't know if I lean into that idea Britain being this Stanley Baldwin the Cn Creek singing and the plow in the field. actuallyctually, we were the first country to industrialise. Britain is uniquely industrialized and disproportionate numbers of our population relative to equivalent economies live in urban centres. So Szory, that's his idea of an idealised and acachronistic brim, but it's not one that I see today and I don't know if it's actually one that we should necessarily be spending billions of pounds preserving Well, I think if you If you ask a foreigner, They What are the three things that they think about Britain in terms of visual things probablybably sayve Big Ben. They might say have another building or sort of you you're doing a movement now which is not very attractive. aboutout bears skins? No, I'm putting a crown on my head. Oh Rw family? Yeah ye But I think they'd also think about English countryside. Becauseuse think English countryside is quite unique in many ways. can't be quite unique. It's eer unique or it is't Cumbridge. Iactly No I don't take Cambridge becausecause I know exactly what you mean. Anyway I hate myself for saying it now. I disagree with you. It's your idea of in England, but actually most tourists go to the urban centres, they don't go and walk in our mud. Is that really true York I think London upp to a point. Edinburgh. Up to a point I mean, I've got lots of German friends who come to this country virtually every summer. And they'll go to West Wales, they'll go to Cornwall. They don't go to London At whereere Politics meets History on Instagram, do let me know what you think the top three things tourists associate England with England, by the way, because Scotland's very different the kil, the bagpipe. But I think Scotland's the same in some ways in that if you think of Scotland, yes, you do think of those things, but you also think of the Highlands Maybe Maybe that Victoria honored sort of flood and mountain, maybe. But that we are in the skin of the nation. We're talking about externals coming to our country and what their takeaways are. and I think that's very different. bet my bottom dollar, it's not a wordsworth or a hardy. We have lots of externals listening to the podcast. So if you're not British and you live abroad and you come to Britain on the oddccasion, What are the three things that you think of first Oward politics meets history, and now for the love of God and my daughter I think that's enough love. Break So what are we going to do now you're in charge. A I Yes. Blattered by that. This unfolding More than tension, rioting in Northern Ireland in the wake of an attack in a particularly vulnerable, very poor part of Belfast, the north of Belfast, within the Catholic or nationalist perimeter by meters, I believe, but actually The reaction has some of it or the way in which it's been cast through the different political prisons, has I think been more inflamed within the nationalist or the loyalist community. and I wanted to speak to the history of it. But first of all, let's just look at the unfolding politics one It's one of those things where you think Northern Ireland does not have a massive immigrant population.Quite big growing fast. Well, it may be growing, but compared to most urban centres in Great Britain percentage of particularly ethnic minority immigrants in Belfast 's not as high as it is in Birmingham, Manchester Leeds, wherever. O, but I would say relative to their population over the last few years, it's actually been growing very fast and the were a series of vigilante attacks on the Roma community just last year. to the extent that certain other minority ethnic communities were putting up. We are not Roma. and I kind of keed into that because of course, many of the Roma are Romanian and they were once again the whipping boys. Well, many of them are Southern Irish Well, actually know the roma in question were from Buer. Okay, no, but I mean I'm just pointing out that I mean trallers A lot of the travellers in England are actually Irish travellers. So I wanted to first of all unpack this idea of asylum claiming asylum and what the DUP leader called out as the open and porous border referring to the one between the North and the south. Now What's fascinating about this is the implications of being an asylum seeker and why actually We have seen asylum seeking numbers go up And the reason for this is actually and I know you're going to hate me, but it's unavoidable is a direct cause of Brexit and the doubling an agreement, which we're no longer part of. Well we've had this discussion before and I don't believe that is true at all, because if you look at the numbers of people who were ever deported under the Dublin aggreement It was minimal. I think in the last year it was thirteen or something like that. Any normal border arrangement between two different countries and we forget the history. We are two different countries you would have some sort of border check Clearly because of the history, there is no border check And that's why anyone could do that, whether it's by train, car or plane. Can we now go back to the Dublin aggreement and why I think it is critical to the reason why we're increasingly seen as a sort of last chance saloon for asylum seekers in Europe undernder the Dublin agreement you were registered in whichever country you first arrived in in the EU, whether at the time when we were in the EU, it was Britain or often it was Italy, for example, or Greece, etcetera Then The asylum seekers were distributed in a quota fashion across the twenty eight respective members Britain is no longer part of that agreement In other words, if you're an asylum seeker and you fail to get asylum in one of those countries, what you can do is then go to Britain outside of this quoted arrangement and try your luck in Britain, which is what's happening, which is why we've seen a slight spike in numbers since Brexit and why the Dublin aggreement doesn't matter. It's not just people being deported through the Dublin aggreement. it's actually about being registered and accepted in the first place But I don't see the logic of that. I mean, if you're saying if you agree with me that very few people returned under of the Dublin aggreement, I don't see what you've said makes any sense Because if you have not been able to claim asylum under the Dublin agreement and you want to try your luck in Britain. it means you can have a go there too, because it's no longer part of the EU. So if you've been rejected within an EU country or asylum, then you're rejected from twenty seven. But because Britain's an outlier and we' no longer part of the group, you can try your luck in Britain. Let's look at the responses from the two different leaders So Sin Fin, Ron Stormman, Michelle O'Neill absolutely understandably, no truck with the vigilante writing hulling bricks, response on the streets, the triggering of violence that this outrageous incident It's refreshing to know that somebody who at least tolerated IRA violence is condemning this And then on the other side, the deputy leader, of course, a lawalist thinks she's DUP isn't she Emma? Deputy First Minister Gelli Yeah She very much, I mean likewise, horrified at what's happened took a very different note, focusing on the arrival of people who don't know where they're coming from, looking and speaking much more to the open and pooorous borders idea. And I thought there's some interesting stuff to unpack there about where the identities of the two historic communities sit and why it is that Michelle O'Neill clearly felt. politically No truck with the rioting would work for the majority of her Catholic community, not only, but including majority of our support. And that is of course I was listening to a fascinating historian on this. that speaks to the nationalist community identifying Historically with the underdog, with the oppressed, we know they play out both communities proxy war if you like, through the lens of what's going on in the Middle East, where you get the nationalist community leaning far more heavily towards Palestine and the cause of Palestine and flying their respective flags and likewise the looyalist community doing the opposite. And there are also some really practical reasons why the migrant influx has impacted more onlwless communities, and that's because of available housing The nationalist communities have always been more overcrowded Cora There's more space and more accommodation available. in the Loyalist communities. so that's where most migrants were housed and that's another triick Do not think that Well, all the reaction I've seen is that it doesn't matter whether it's nationalist or loyalist community, they've all reacted in the way that you would expect any normal person to react to condemn the attack Um I think politicians from either side of the divide have called for restestraint And that's where I think these despicable violent scenes last night demonstrated that a lot of these the people that were perpetrating this They were probably the usual suspects I think they inevitably would have been people from the far right in the UK who probably traveled to Belfast specifically to take part in these riots I think there would have been people from eithers from nationalist and loyalist Paramilitary communities who missed the action of the sort of twenty years ago, they probably got involved a bit. And I mean I'm sure there is a far right aspect to Northern Ireland politics. And also externally being triggered, mask Oh yeah. said on his X platform ahead of the disorder. this is last night, Bins was set alike. was within the Unionist area, if you like. There masked individuals, etcetera. He wrote, and I quote Musk on X, Only by protesting in caps repeatedly and loudly, will there be any change? And he shared a post from Tommy Robberinson listing dozens of locations where people could protect. Well, and I think Rupert Low has to take some responsibility here. leadeer of restore who is being amplified on X through the algorithm dictated by Elon Musk and he Initially, I don't know whether it was just him or whether other people thought this as well. They said the guy was from Somalia And then in the end, he had to admit that he was wrs from Sudan. This is where so many people in his part of the political spectrum seem to delight to rush to judgment before they have to then retract. and I'm not saying rep put low was in any way responsible for instigating these riots. But when Elon Musk uses language like that. and I mean I don't People have every right to protest. So when he says loudly, well, you can interpret that in a number of ways. I think we need to underscore just how dangerous this has been. People being burnt out of the houses.. Well, people are being dragged out of their houses. and I think that they were Supposedly initially going after everybody who they thought came from Africa in a particular area of Belfast and their houses were being burnt down But there were plenty of white families whose houses were being brought burnt down. I mean this is what Claire Hannah who is a wonderful politician, by the way, ourfast MP leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party. She said, and I quote her, what you're seeing is a race based pogrim. We're seeing men going door to door to get the foreigners out based exclusively on the colour of their skin that scary stuff. The one redeeming which we haven't seen in England, I have to say. But we know about I think The Northern Ireland has this extraordinarily complex and violent past. is a very fragile peace process is a lived experience of vigilanteism, thuggishness and murder that is within very much living history. And the one thing that we do know therefore is that the police force The PSR NMI is extraordinarily well equipped to manage this in a way that I think would really challenge some of the British. Are they? Because I don't see this than they were. Well, I think if this was a nationalist loyalist thing then I think you're absolutely right, but it isn't I mean, this never happened in the troubles. This never happened where you would have IRA terrorists hauling loyalist supporters out of their houses, which happened to be in predominantly nationalist areas. And vice versa, it never happened that loyalist terrorists were doing the same to Catholics, pulling people out of their houses and then burning A a lot of violence on the streets though. Well, there wasiolence on the streets. there was bombs this sort of thing, As far as I'm aware, did not happen. And I think that's the worrying thing. And are we going to now see a repeat of this sort of thing in mainland Britain? And I think it's entirely possible that we will. I have a great fear now that we are going to see the equivalent of the nineteen eighty one Summer riots. Do you remember those Well you wouldn't do because you would have been about seven when Brixton was basically torted. Toxtdorth was torched, areas in Birmingham, Handsworth, I think, as well, Bristol. in many of our major cities, there were there was rioting not to the extent that people were being dragged out of the houses I remember it very well because it was the summer of the royal wedding.' etched in my mind. I actually don't think there will be contagion because I think there's been suitable levels of horror across the board at what's happened. No. But the thing is Once people do this sort of thing once they then feel licensed to do it again. As explained, and this is not too I always think that Northern Ireland is the most extraordinary success story of late in the British Isles, but I think This is a reminder of their unique past and how fragile the piece is. and I don't think the equivalent would perhaps be replicated in Maybe I'm naive in such a dark and quickly violent way, the way in which it's escalated, I think that's what's really taken me by surprise It went from zero to red so quickly over there. And I think I think that that I'm hoping, I suppose, that that is unique province and can be dealt with Why should it be? Why should it be? we've seen what happened in Southampton last week. We've had I mean this is different in some ways, but not in every way. And I I mean, say there's another incident in the next couple of weeks in Manchester And can I can absolutely I'm not predicting it. I hope it won't happen But I think we've all got to be alive to it. and I think the authorities and the politicians have to be alive to it. I suppose what I'm trying to say is because I don't want it to seem like I think, oh, in Northern Ireland, know they are more racists. I'm not saying that at all, but I think there's a group. There are elements within society over there who grew up living the reality of violence against the other the other community they were pitched against. and there is a bit like football hooliganism, that itch that hasn't been scratched. And this is the excuse Well there is scratched, that itch. But let's also remember what's going on in the south where in Dublin there are protests against immigration. I mean in Dublin I mean, Ireland itself, the Republic has been very welcoming to immigrants because they want to bump up their population. I mean, we talked about this I think in the last episode They're not the level of volence you don't see in You haven't seen anything like this, but you have seen things being set on fire. you have seen a bit of violence, not to this level. But that's not to say that it couldn't happen in the South if there were a similar incident. And a final thought before Corey calls time on this, are I also wonder We know that long term, They want, certainly the nationalist community to pull for the reunification of Ireland And there's a lot of thinking around Some of them do, not all of them do. Around whether the South want to take on the North. And I think this is a chance for certain parts of the loyalist community in particular to remind the South of why they would never want unification of the island and therefore confirming the current status quo with Britain. It might be interesting in a future pood to look at this whole issue of reunification and whether A it could work. I some really good books come out in the last couple of years on this how reunification could work or might it not work There's been a lot of polling done within the nationalist and loyalist communities in the North And it's not always what you would expect it to show because you have a lot of P people in the North who are Catholics, who say Yeah, in theory, my heart says, ye, I quite like a United Ireland, but I don't want to pay sixty euros for a doctor's appointment. No Of course, there are all those practical elements, but I think the occasional reminder last year against the Roma, this year against seemingly anyone of a different colour, a reminder that there's a serious hardcore small minority in the North where guns are and knives are just below the surface. violent intent. probably always will be I mean, it's a horrible thing to say, but And I think it has been remarkable since nineteen ninety eight how peace has broken out But they' all of these tensions simmering away does it mean to be English? You can't answer that question because you're a Scot. And I'm only three quarters English. Well, interestingly, Stewart is Scot. He is very pro the subsidy of a small farmer because as he said very eloquently, because we know he speaks in perfect sentences, you know actually this is preserving an ideal of Britain. This is about, I don't know, upland hill sheep farming about time immemorial, the idea of working the land, of pasture of livestock of feeding the community of localism and I hear that I found it extraordinary that in one breath He spoke his conservatism with a small C. He reminded me slightly actually of King Charles and his love of, you know, pastoral Romania and the peasant that idea of this time gone by and preserving it. I was led to believe that conservatives don't really like public subsidies and protecting stuff that is a loss leader or doesn't make much money. And yet Rory goes out on a limb says noob I believe in farming subsidies. That's a minority he does seek to protect. And he was very indignant that countries far long as Japan and neighbouring France know how to look after their small farmer in a way that we don't I I mean, agriculture, I don't know when subsidies first started, but it would have been a hell of a long time ago And u partly because We've started importing so much more in proportional terms, so much more of our food. So if you don't subsidize agriculture in some way, and we can argue about the best way to do it if we agree that it should be done. But if you don't do it, well what happens to the land And there you have in the nineties it was set aside and the EE paid farms. I remember giant landowners like the one my dad worked for being given money to do nothing with their land, which seemed ridiculous when his kids were eaten, but that's a side hustle. But then or rewilding, which Rory really disagrees with where you grow kind of wildflowers or pretty birchish trees, he would say on land that's been farmed since Stations were imported by the Romans and you know building Hadran's wall and farming themselves up there. So he makes that point. I suppose my issue is that idea of England as a green and pleasant land and Rwory speaking to that as the heart of Britishness And I would say no. Britain is a predominantly urban country. We led the industrial. Not by landmass, it isn't? But No, okay, I say no country. I mean you look at city state like Singapore, Well that's not the case But actually, the lived experience of ninety percent of England. Not true. H hundred percent true. The lived experience. Are you saying that ninety percent built up areas Well, what's a built up area Twn or a city? Well, a town I would argue it's not a build. Are you not living off the land, Iian It is a built up area a town is but up. Is a village a built up area? I'm telling you that growing up somewhere that was fifty miles from the nearest supermarket, we considered Pit Lockery a giant carnobation. Okay, and Anything that wasn't teeny wey in Lckaranic with a primary school that was about to be I don think you're letting your background dominate your f. But as does Rory. So he absolutely wants this minority of small farms to be protected and subsidised because he thinks that speaks to a Britishness, which I would argue hasn't existed for over two hundred years, except for the rareified few. And actually if you look at and then he says, Well why can't we be more like France Actually, if you look at the French lived experience, seventy five percent of French people live in built up areas, relative to our ninety percent. That's because mean A, they have a much bigger country than we do But I won't concede the point. I do not believe that a town of five thousand or ten thousand people is a built up area. It's in the middle of the countryside It's the ONS definition of what is a built up area but more to the point, they're not deriving their living from the land, which is what protect. Well that is true But if you don't allow the land to be farmed properly Then essentially you're saying, well, let's have more food imports. And to, this all ties into this thing that I've become slightly obsessed by, which I'm going to do a book on called Resilience We our food resilience in this country is diminishing every single year. And if you believe that in say a time of war or really difficult times, I mean, say the banking system collapsed or the internet collapsed or whatever we would have to go back to a society that we thought we' left behind tens, if not hundreds of years ago And therefore, we need to have food resilience and part of that is through subsidizing agriculture. Now I don't want to subsidize B agro companies. And unfortunately in this country, as opposed to France, this is where I kind of see Rory's point. France is still full of small farmers. In this country most well I say most, a huge proportion of them by by need had to sell up to or amalgamate Yeah. So you're right to point that out. The issue is economic viability. So a small farm is less economically viable than a bigger farm. So Rory said, Oh, Scotland' sort of empty and owned by giant landowners because of the clearances partly true. But for example, where my father worked, there were seven times the number of employees on the estate just decades earlier because of mechanization So actually If you are a small farmer, You find that your overheads are much more expensive relative to your yield, and therefore it's harder to sustain. Now that's a wonderful way of life and it's picturesque but I'm not sure it's necessarily, if we're going to beutlessly honest financially viable. And also going into the future, I think I I grew up on one of these farms. two hundred twenty acres, Arable farm, we did have animals initially until we joined the EC and then they all had to go. U If my father made twenty thousand pounds in a year, he was doing really well U That's what I knew from a very early age that even if I'd wanted to take over the farm By the time I was in a position to, the farm would not be economically viable. my father never worried about that because he saw farming as a vocation not a business to the great annoyance of my mother who had to do all the books. And that's why my sisters and I have had to sell the land because it's not a viable entity. that would be considered very small that acreage I think that Instinctively I don't have a massive issue with certain farmers being given a small subsidy. I do think However, in terms of the it cognitive dissonance of Rory's argument is that if we're looking at future supply chains Eating a lovely piece of beef that's grazed or mutton that's grazed in the Cumbrian pastures and hillsides. that is going to be the privilege for a rare few and that most of us probably will be eating protein that's been vat made. and I don't think we're looking that far into the future. One of the squares you've got to circle or the other way around is how you manage climate change. And actually, we know that the way in which we farm land leads to excessive flooding. actuallyctually, we know that the extent to which livestock graze on land which then depletes the land, means there's no carbon capture because there's a lack of trees, etceter. It's compromising the entire global infrastructure. So I think we're going to move of it in N not in this country isn't it. I mean in this country Frankly, if you travel from London to Norwich Barely see a cow I'm talking actually globally Ian about the way in which we're talking about We're talking about Britain in this country. We are talking about Britain. I think there is a place for really good eating really good meat. I will always be a hearty red meat eater But I think it's going to become you also seem doing criminal because expensive minority sport. The way things are going. I mean, you talk to Greens on this and sort of the more extreme end of the greens that they would happily force us all to be vegans on the the basis that a plant based diet is a more healthy diet, which' something I've never know. I can test that. And we're now all being made guilty to if we admit to eating particularly red meat And I can see in ten years time This argument will have really caught on amongst sort of Gen Z and Gen Alpha. I think it's about sustainability because actually in the same book where he unpacks this idea of protecting the small farmer and the way in life and that style of agriculture that we've lent into for hundreds of years also laments the floods and the way in which they're being flooded constantly, eight years out of ten years whereas before it was a one off freak event, and the way in which farmers can sustain kind of weather, what that will mean for food supply, and I think it will bring on far more quickly than we think this idea of you know genetically modified, vat created, making protein from literally water energy. You know in giant vats, where you create protein from energy and water and air. literally, that's where the science is taking us in And I think that's also where the climate's taking us. And if you throw in major conflict to that equation which could lead to pressure, further pressure on land. I think it's the reality we're going to be facing sooner afteron. I think that younger generations are really going to want to eat dominantly genetically modified foods. You know, I don't know if it's genetically modified, but I ate what I thought was a chicken nagga and it was utterly delicious because I've always liked fast food and it turned out there was no chicken in it at all. I think increasingly future generations won't be able to tell the difference Rory's idea of what England was will increasingly become a museum piece That may be true. U I mean This is where I don't envy politicians in that even though I wanted to be one. some of the decisions that they are going to have to take over the next ten or twenty years I'm slightly relieved that I'm not going to have to make those decisions partly because and I'll be completely honest, I don't understand them. I mean how mean I think most of most legislators do not have the faintest understanding of AI. I don't pretend to myself. I'm slightly fascinated by some of the things it can do now. But it's nothing to whats he'll be able to do in five years. How do you legislate for that? Which brings me on to where I believe his whole argument sort of fell apart becausecause after he said we need to protect these small farms and the idea of England with a conservative sea, small sea You know, Stanley Baldwin, etcetera. He then in the second breath says on his own podcast, we must embrace AI, these giant energy guzzling data centers. Where are they to be built? I asked him at which point he threw up his hands and said all about contradictions. You know It's okay to be about contradictions. Politics is full of contradictions. I'm sorry, but that's such a lazy argument on his part. and I've seen him do it before Um I mean he could one minute extol the virtues of localism and then the next minute talk about the virtues of benevolent dictatorship Well, Rory, which one is it? Which road do you want to go down And you ask him that And he throws his hand up in the air and startsiggling Well after we discussed where in Cumbria you'd put the data center, he said that would be a very local decision. Basically they've had to slug it out between themselves. But then I did say you're like holding up a prism to the light and everyone casts their own version of Rory through it. because for some people, you're very local in Cumbria, for others, you're international colossus striding the globe you know in toning on how we should live. You're on the one hand English, on the other hand, you're Scottish and there he was on the one hand being, you know anti change and on the other hand saying we must embrace change. So he is what you want him to be? bit like Antie Bernamy. Probably not much between them Pil Well, I wouldn't know because I think it's very difficult to discern what Andy Burnham thinks about anything. One wears a white t shirt, the other one wears a tweed waistcoat. Let's leave it there. I did a really interesting hour last night in the nine o'clock hour, notothing to do with politics Um, I'd I don't know if you saw this story that a woman at Stratford upon A Royal Shakespeare Company Theatre decided that it was appropriate to take a baby to watch the tempest starring Kenneth Branon. And as you can imagine the baby started gurgling and I don't know whether it actually cried But it was loud enough that the cast could hear it and peoplee in the audience started to get a bit antsy And in the interval, the theatre had to ask her to go and watch it on screen in the cafe. Now what's your view on the rights and wrongs of that Well it's like a sort of upscaling of is it Rosmond Pike who hold off. audience member after the curtain call a couple of weeks ago because she'd seen them texting in her most climactic moment on stage. And I think relative to a baby gurgling and crying, I'll take the text up That's what that makes me think. But I mean I'm sure you wouldn't have ever taken any of your children to the cinema or to the theatre at that age. But if you were sitting, say in the row in front, What would what would you have done? One of the reasons why I don't really enjoy school concerts is they're full of young children You're a woman after my own heart. honestly, it was one of the most enjoyable hours last night I've ever done. I've had such a good time. I don't mind small children on stage. It's just when you have small children watching small children. Yeah. And I did have to explain at one point that my nieces used to call me Uncle Herod because kn I didn't particularly like children. I don't even like people scrunkling minenstrual papers in front of me. I was I think it was a Bond film I was watching and there was a woman and her son behind and they had this massive box of popcorn and they'd stick their hand right down the bottom and rustle it each time. In the end I turned aroundound very politely I said you mind b G me a cnt. Right, well, you got something right in the dark. Okay, extraordinary. Hi bo Hi both. I love the pod and very much enjoy the banter. although I must confess I'm h on Ian' side. Oh my goodness. I believe I'm reading. un. Your podcast and the other ones Ian does got me through some hard times last year, difficult marriage, lost a third of my body weight, living on my own, but now I've met an amazing man. We've bonded over our shared love of political podcast and of you, Ian Oh. I think he's gay He doesn't have a name actually. He actually reminds me a lot of you this is the man he's found as he is gentle soul and very fair minded. Anyway, I want to thank you for your input. Now to my question, looking back at previous prrime Ministers, who do you think is the most misunderstood And what lessons Do modern politicians fail to learn from their time in office? Thanks for all you do. Liz. Ah, not a man, then? Not a man Oh my go, the most misunderstood Well, this truss would argue her. And I think there is a modicum of truth in that. One of the funny bits of Stewart's book. Was he served under her in the department of environment and food and rural affairs. and she basically said there's no difference between rural and urban voters I heard a fascinating story about her over lunch today, but I better not repeat it. I think the point is she doesn't make sense, which is why none of us understand her. But in general terms misunderstood not sure any prrime minister has been clearly misunderstood Um could you argue Chamberlain? I thought no, I don't think Mr. Chamberlain was misunderstood. I think he was very I think his motives were possibly misunder or have been misunderstood in retrospect. Yeah I think he was looking out for the nation with his November face and his an umbrella, but he got overtaken by the by the juggeral that was the horror of Nazi Germany, which he didn't call or see I think Gordon Brown in some ways was a bit misunderstood. I think he just became the sort of fag butt of blairism And I would have been really interested to see how his administration would have unfolded if he had been the one to lead from the front initially Yeah, there's lots of what ifs there, aren't there? If he had called an election in two thousand seven and won it Therefore, he would have been until at least twenty twelve The Brown bounce. Do you remember? He could have Cameron probably might have gone by then and there wouldn't have been a Brexit. I mean there's all sorts of consequences to these things. The person who certainly isn't misunderstood because he's just reminded us that he still can't see the error of his ways is to still wanting to fight America's wars for them, denying climate change incidentally absolutely wanting to get our hands on as much fossil fuels as we can down with Ed Millilibhand, etcetera Ross says Good day to both. I'm imagining now Ross is Australian Good for you I was interested in your discussion on Canada on the most recent episode, as well as one from a few weeks ago around Israel Both topics, I feel could do with further historical contextualization Though that's not throwing any shade to the good doctor I appreciate there is only so much time to both prep and on the podcast itself Given that Canada has long been the darling of the liberal centre and Israel that of the right I find the cognitive dissonance over both sides Hols What? that both sides hold fascinating. And I say that as a centrist liberal who'd loved to live in Canada. On Canada, any talk of their founding should at least nod to how they treat the indigenous peoples. The Canadian government was still forcibly asking indigenous children from other families into residential schools while into the nineteen nineties, and yet we look on Canada very differently than we do our closest southern neighbours. And then with Israel, I've always found it odd that there's always talk of the founding of the country little about the Zionist terrorism that led to it He goes on for quite a long way th. I think we got got I need to pick up on a you made? Well, surely not. Kate has flagged up in relation to Australia. I must correct Ian. on an error in the last episode, he claimed the teals in Australia were the equivalent of reform, not true. They are politically closest to the Lib Dems, while being funded by Climate two hundred, founded by wealthy investor and climate change activist Simon Holmes Aourt The closest party to reform here in Australia is one nation. Pauline Hansen outfit. Quite the colourful politician. I suggest a deep dive for Tessa Butgerd your loin. So that's been noted. Thank you, Kate Well, I'm just putting into Chat GPT. Oh no. Which UK political party are the Australian teals closest to C't this bit, Cy And it says The Australian till independents are not a political party but a loose grouping of centrists, mostly economically liberal, socially progressive independents, who emerged prominently at the twenty twenty two Australian federal election So I have to admit that I was completely wrong. Thanks, Kate. I love it when a woman calls out. It's nothing to do with the woman. It could have been a bloke that said. I can't help it. I still. You really can't help it. can you? I can't help it. honest. Come on I know you've taken onmbrage becausecause I've not asked you about your select committee appearance, so come on, still the beans. Well, it was quite something in the end. I actually quite enjoyed it. It went twenty minutes over when it was supposed to And I was like you to talk over time. I was with well I was on with a very eloquent young man called Jordan Schwarzenberger, who was a YouTube He runs a company that does lots of things on YouTube And we actually agreed on quite a lot And I didn't know most of the MPs on the committee There was one Rapper Hk that I did know before. And how can I put this? Ruper Hk is quite a maverick and doesn't really she's a bit like you, she doesn't have much of a break mechanism And my first encounter with Rupert Huck was actually on LBC about ten years ago when she was first elected. And I was presenting on a Saturday morning And she came on to talk about some aspect of railways, I can't remember what And I wasn't really concentrating on her answer the question. I was thinking, what am I going to ask her next And I just heard her say, I mean, if you go on the London underground nowadays, you might as well give the person next to you a hand job I was thinking D I did she really say that And I looked to the producer who didn't give any reaction at all And I thought, Well, okay, well if she did say that, I'm assuming they dumped it. and they had dumped it. But I said to her afterwards, I said, On what planet was it appropriate for you to say that at ten o'clock on a Saturday morning, when you'll have parents taking their kids to their sports activities or whatever And she genuinely couldn't see the problem with that. And I've had a couple of other incidents with her over the years. So when she started talking, she produced an iPad And she said, Well, LBC because I'd made clear, I wasn't there speaking on behalf of LBC. I was speaking in a personal capacity. and the whole hearing was on the BBC Chter renewal And she then said, Well, I've got this clip here that LBC put out and it's of Nigel Farage. and he's not being challenged I said, I don't know what Klub you're talking about I said he usually goes on Nick Ferrari and I can assure you Nick Ferrari challenges him And she said, No, no, he's in a field making a statement. I said, Oh, so that was on the Henry Novatt thing where he did this sort of emergency thing. I said, you don't think that it's appropriate for us to carry a clipip of what a political party might this being looked at if it was LBC because I thought the whole point was a select committee look Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, anyway, she wasn't for backing down. And I said, look, we would do that if it was Kir Starmer making a statement or Kemy Beeszenock or even a Davy. I don't see what your problem is. Well, he wasn't challenged. I said, no because he was in the middle of a field And it got quite sparky between us I still don't understand This was in front of the select committee. Yes. And you could see the rest of the MPs thing, you know iss she goes again. whyy didn't they just close her door? Well, maybe they should have done. That's what Rory did with me, just showed me the door after I asked him to go Iually I mean it was an interesting experience and we covered a lot of ground and I mean, look, I admit, I mean, I couldn't quite really understand why I was there It was all because apparently, I wrote an article six years ago on the future of the BBC. and my main point was It's up to the BBC to lead this debate about its future and decide what it wants to be, what it should be doing, what it shouldn't be doing So I said at the beginning, I said, I'm not here to just slag off the BBC But I will in a sent. Well in the end I went on to slag off the BBC mean But in a constructive way.. I mean, I identify some things that I thought they shouldn't be doing, like why do they spend seventy five million pounds a year on Match of the day Wait. Sky spports do it much better And it's a legacy thing. They've always had Match of the Days. So they always think they It's like funding small farmers, could we say? I mean, do you think that we need to just put mean the problem is, Ian, that you don't like watching Match of the Day on the BBC, but loads of people rest my case Be I always have. It's like custard. But it's not a programe that's ever innovated. It's exactly the same format as it was in nineteen sixty seven Because we're creatures of habits. Yeah, I know. But would you rather spend seventy five million pounds a year on that or stop the cuts in news and current affairs? that was my main point that they've salami sliced news and current affairs to the point where it's actually incapable of doing its job now. Do you know the entire thesis is of my day has been about contradiction and you simply can't have everything, but it's incredibly hard to decide with our everyinishing can That's my point. Status in this country. what we have and what we''s not it is It's nothing to do with the BBC. The BBC BBC should be leading the debate on its future, but instead, I mean, could you tell me Tim Davy's vision was for the future of the BBC. Now I think it's very interesting. they've got this guy from Google. Mount in Britain Never met, don't know anything about him apart from the fact that he's from Google That will either be an inspired appointment or it'll just be more of the same because it'll be captured by all of the sort of apparatics within the BBC But I think one of the issues that Britain is grappling with and one of the reasons why there's so much discontent and yes, it spills out onto the streets and yes, targets often erroneously are selected and it's not necessarily their fault and they're not culpable is because we're not used to having a diminishing of money There is less to go around and I don't care whether that's funding for the state broadcaster or whether it's subsidies for small farmers. there is less of it. and that makes us feel hard done because since the Second World War, the pot was regularly replenished and it hasn't been in the world. Perhaps we should spending like a tap turned on as we are at the moment and actually identify things that we shouldn't be spending money on. aspects of the welfare budget. I feel you're going for PIP is that next week? Well about PIP, but I would be going for the welfare budget. But I think next week, hopefully At some point in the next couple of days, the defense in What's it called? Defense invvestment plan? Yes will finally be published So we can talk about that because I think the government are going to disappoint everyone with that. They'll say that they're spending more money, but they won't be. Apparently though, like Ernest Bevan, John Healy is promising there's going to be a union jack over every part of the munitions' build up. He's going to make his bombs and he's going to make his destroyers and he's going to make his drones everywhere and every corner of the British arms. One percent is going to be taken off every other budget in government to fund it. So I've heard. Yeah to a massive thirteen and a half billion pounds, which won't touch the sides. Anyway, have a lovely weekend, I'm going to Me too, and this has dropped day early. soes almost premature to which everyone It's a Thursday car. Apparently the best cars are made between Tuesday and Thursday. Yes This has been a Global Player original production