Maid of Norway and Scottish History

This is a global production The wind is in Andy Burnham sails at the moment For reasons I can't quite fathom because He's a complete nutter flake What is it that you particularly take Umbridge with? The fact that other than other than Ian, he's got a great thatch of hand. He does. he does. Yeah yeah. You look below the surface and there's nothing there. He's flip flopped on virtually every major issue. And he's done it again on the Waspy Women this week. absolutely ludicrous position that he took and then had to reverse ferret on it. That's the complaint that is made against Kest Stama that he flip flops on everything, that he has no ideological grounding. He doesn't really believe in anything And Andy Burnham is a replica of that, but he can sell things better But what's he got to sell? That's the problem. We still don't know Hello and welcome to a holiday edition of where politics meets history. Well, it's a holiday edition for me because I'm supposedly on holiday, but Tessa has forced me to take part in this podcast because she's too lazy to find a replacement So here I am sitting in my t shirt in Tunbridge Wells waiting for Tessa's words of wisdom. Ian is in a vest, a string vest with a can of castle mphorex. No, I'm not Pdy has the barbie Well you'll find out on the twenty seventh and you still haven't asked your husband if he's willing to come have you? these matters are a delicate series of negotiations that have to take place behind closed doors. Ikay's bit like the labour leadership contest. Thank you very much. You are, of course in irreplaceable My younger brother always says I must be kinder to you, so that I could not think of a replacement suggests that you are the titan of broadcasting without whom we could not survive this essential by election week. Well we are starting this fifteen minutes later than we'd intended because of your technical incompetence. Do you know what she said to me just now? She said I'm really sorry that my internet cable just became detached from my computer because it got stuck in my foot. And I'm thinking do they not have WiFi in Brixton? And then I thought, oh, she's obviously got a VPN so she can access obscene porn. Not that. it's just because as you so often Rafarti I'm so young. It's not a trick of light. it's not Botox magic. I'm actually only sixteen and I'm desperately trying to trick. kiss armers non scrolling device. you know even sixteen year olds aren't going to be allowed to do infinite scrolling and I'm very worried that might curve my head. Don't shoot your bolt on that one too quickly because we're going to be talking about that a little bit later on But of course, you are not sixteen. In fact, you're sixteen times three and a quarter, aren't you God almighty. if you can do those metal arithmetics, it means noly was I got interternet age. I only got grades C GCS. You know some pedant the other day I don't know whether it was on the podcast or on my program where I said I got GCSE maths and you said, Well you couldn't have done because they weren't introduced until nineteen eighty seven. Qite right. No, well that is true, but I was on the pilot project in nineteen seventy eight, so it was a GCSE O level I was in Scotland, so I did standard Geds and I've never really understood the difference between the two. I've always been a firm believer that somewhere in the middle is the best version of an exam system if only Scotland and England could communicate better. But we know that's never going to happen. We've got a lot to get through, of course. I wanted to do a little dollop, a small we dollop of Scottish history in the wake of their brave kind of slightly lackluster victory over Haiti and discuss why they have this Hyper masculine image, the Scots. They are the plucky underdog But you know, we always think they might just draw the dagger from their stockinged leg and plunge it deep. So I think that we need to look at why they have this very masculine image. L if you could gender countries, which I'm sure you don't spend your evenings trying to do, I would Scotland a more masculine I don't spend my life thinking about gender unlike you, which occurs in every single podcast, as many people have pointed out Actually that is a good point though, which are the masculine countries and which are the feminine U I think you're right. Scotland is definitely a masculine country I would say that France is very much a feminine country. I would say Spain is a feminine country, Italy more of a masculine country, but verging on the bisexual side, I would say. They're almost they them. I'm going to come to where this myth of hypermasculinity in the Scottish identity came from. We're going to track back some eight hundred years for those who are there isn't enough history in the pod. It's interesting though, given how Recently they've been governed by a Fisty I'm not allowed to use that word, although I heard it applied to a man at the weekend, so I am now going with full steam ahead with feisty, a feisty woman, Nicola Sturgeon. and quickly apropo female leadership and identity. My word of the weekend, Gyaky.. must be something to do with lady parts. Well no, I mean, obviously gyneecology etcetera refers to lady parts. So there must be a Latin genesis or some such for gyne referring to the female Guyaky is a political or social system where women hold the ultimate governing, authority, power and dominance. So Thatcher was a really Thatcher and Elizabeth II. Britain then was a really good example of a Gyay I can teach you a new word today. Well, at least I hope it's a new word for you because I'd be slightly appalled if you actually know what it is Gish. An It to be something slightly smutty. It is. If you'd be appalled ye God, your so lowest common denominator is. You need band for scrolling, and the porn site. Well, talking of scrolling, actually that's quite an appite word for this because it's a sort of ring that you put in under your scrotum. God Almighty. This is I'm trying to raise the level of this. whichich I must admit. I've never encountered before, but I was told that the other day, so it must be true I mean, why would why would anyone do that? It's like, why would anyone have a Prince Albert? I don't know what a Prince Albert is. I thought the last time do that he was victorious Cant husband from Germany But you do know what it is in relation to a man's and other regions, don't you? I have absolutely no, I don't only discovered what tea laging was about a year ago brought up in the Highlands without internet. o? And there were very few locals You genuinely don't know what a Prince Albert is. I do not know hand on heart what a Prince Albert is, except I do know who he was so I think that's quite. Well, apparently, and I don't know whether he had one of these. But it's like a ring. It can be quite a thick ring as well that you have fixed onto the end of your knob What to make it thicker for the woman or the man Well I don't know because I would have thought it was quite a dangerous thing to do that it could result in Right, next time, well I will do a deep dive into the ancestry of the Prince Alba because it must be something to do with him. otherwise it wouldn't be called after him, would it? Well, Victoria did have nine children Maybe she acquired such a broad girth that he felt he needed something for extra pleasure. I don't want, I can't believe you forced me down this rabb hill. I've done so much research today on banning things, historically banning things from children. We'll get on to that in a minute. This is the fluff that we love at the beginning of the episode Have you that you mentioned scope of peciar Victory. if you're peculiar. It would do. You watched Scotland's match, did you? again gust Haiti of it. Dan's obsessed. Dan watches all the World Cup On Romanian teley, obviously they're not in the competition because he can't bear the English dominance of the British coverage and he just finds all the kind of crew out there super smug and an. far be it from us as the nation of England to dominate England coverage. I mean, Dar I think Britain We've given more coverage to Scotland so far. Obviously because they've played because Romania aren't in it. Obviously because Scotland played first. but it's worth bearing in mind, huge numbers of people are born abroad and have different teams. And I think it's interesting. I wonder how many watch the football from their own nations's coverage. I mean, anything's accessible now But it's him in his little corner, his little kind of football corner. And I get to sort of reign supreme downstairs. It's extraordinary how regressive in many respects our household is The football comes on, it's not that I'm not interested it's visually very pleasing to watch five mininutes of football, but I simply don't have the concentration span or the time to slog my way through an entire match, even if I have a vested interest in the match. So for example, Scotland playing or England playing, I've managed to talk solidly in in your absence Oh my goodness, flowers. Who gave you those flowers? Ian's come into the room with a giant bouquet of flowers. Are you showing off? No, they're not for me, they're for John. because believe it or not, it's our wedding anniversary today. So I thought for once in my life, I would do something thoughtful. Now I want you to guess this is what I got from Iflora How much do you think they cost? There's a few carnations there. Are there a couple of chrysanthemons? What have you chosen? Yeah, there's different things. What's the blue one? That's very liies. No, most people are allergic to lilies. That's why I didn't get any. So how much do you think that little?ing is cynical. In two seconds, I now know why you were chivying me online because you knew this was going arrive and it would make you look good. No Optics that ar. No, the timing was three hundred thirty to four thirty So therefore, I thought, well, we'll be finished by three hundred and thirty if Tesla is on time which of course, you weren't. I think interflora hand delivered Tunbridge Wells, I would say you paid fifty pounds for that bunch of flowers. Very good. fifty six pounds. What an absolute rip off. I do think flowers. I was expecting a much bigger bunch than that. And it comes in a cardboard box. I thought there might be a sort of porcelain vase or something that it comes in. My flowers is they don't last, they die They stink. I think cut flowers are problematic because the water smells so putrid. I prefer always to be given a plant pot Okay, I'll bear that I' bear that in mind Anyway, J you think it's good that Be of course this is the anniversary of the upgrade as opposed to the original civil partartnership. So that was eleven years ago today where we upgraded over a photocoper in Norwich Registry Oice. I mean, how romantic can you get With Prince Albert? Not with P. In your absence, while you were picking up the flowers, I was talking about the gender disparities in our household where I've actually left down to his man cave the fug of beer and commentary. and I swun around downstairs having reclaimed the kitchen. And yesterday in the park, I noticed that Eena and her girlfriends were swinging from the bars and all the little boys were running around on the dusty football pitch hoofing a ball. And I said to the girls, donon't you want to go and be lionesses thinking I should try and counter the clear gender divide. and they said, o no, we don't do football. No That's because boys like to get muddy. I thought, o my god, what have I done wrong? Cnt sale. The dyacy in our f is too overpowering I think Elena is a very sensible young woman U, But have you not watched any of the matches then touch base with them, but as I explained to the dear listener in your absence, I can't manage the whole shooting match. It's like I can manage a sip of gin, I can't do a whole bottle, that's the kind of equivalent. Well, I took these two weeks off especially so I could watch literally virtually every match. and I've only missed two so far. What I do is the ones that are overnight I then watch the next day. So when we finish this, I'm going to watch the Sweden match, which was at three o'clock last night. So if you know the result, don't say because I'll kill you. because you enjoy watching the extraordinarily decorative players or is because you are great because a commentator f. I'm not like Corey, who's one of these new vague Johnny Come Lately football fans who's embarrassing whenever he talks about football. I actually have a big history in football So there we are Okay Well we wouldn't deny that pleasure. and for some reason and perhaps this speaks more to my generation. I think it's less damaging watching endless hours of football in Trump's America and beyond. Th it is, in fact scrolling on Instagram. So well done. the one thing I really hate about this World Cup though are the so called hydration breaks because what they're not hydration breaks, They're to allow American broadcasters to have advert breaks And I mean, last night, you had the ludicrous thing of I can't remember which match it was though. Wh they were playing with the roof on and the whole stadium was air conditioned, but they still had hydration brakes This World Cup has not caught to light yet for me. It's only when Curiseo scored against Germany to make it one one, I thought that was the moment when it could set the whole thing alight and then the Germans went and scored seven. Anyway, should we go The opening stages the opening stages always dull. Scotland had their high moment against Haiti because I noticed next there was Morocco and Brazil So I feel they're going to have to lean heavily on that hypermasculine image of their nation to get beyond the opening stages for the first time in however many decades. And England, will it be Croatia? I don't know. Will she is England a woman? Is England a woman? I think most countries are woman, aren't they I know But do we lean into, oh when it's about football, and I think of the sort of thuggish nature historically of the English football fan, I struggle with the idea of us being a woman, England being a woman It's also masculine, I think, England. Although white is I think it is to play in. Can we just agree it Yeah, okay S them. I like you in England play in red. becausecause we won the World Cup, in fact, Westamb won the World Cup when Englland were playing with a red shirt. so I think we should play always in red, but there we are. Right. let's go to a for a break. you're going to get some serious history. Whether you like it or not. Ian In nineteen twenty three. first private members bill introduced by a woman common act of Parliament Stipulated what? No idea that Uh Can you give me a little clue? Well, today we're talking about the blanket banning of social media, courtesy of Kir Stama for all those sixteen and under with add ons for those over. Banning of pornography No I'm not sure that the Trade in pornography was roaring for the under six teamens in nineteen twenty three via. I that is true, but they disseminate it There was pornography in the nineteen twenties though, because I think Where was it I was reading about the world's oldest pornographic film? It was like one of these silent movies and that would have been in the nineteen twenties. I'm not quite sure how popular it would have been, but I bet there was sort of like the nineteen twenties equivalent of sort of top shelf magazines, for example. This is the second part of the pod and we're back with pornography. let me just you away. If you're playing hup thimble, you're very cold at the moment. Okay, so not not Okay, somethingomet right, Well I don't know Alcohol Alh And who was the woman in question who introduced the private members bill in ninet? Probably Nancy Asta. Exactly right. She stood up in front of an audience of predominantly hostile men, over five hundred of them, to deliver her maiden speech. This was in nineteen twenty. It was a subject close to her heart, the need for restrictions on the sale of hol Her speech emphasized the damage caused to women and children by the excessive consumption of alcohol by minors And it was introduced in nineteen twenty three. Anyone under eighteen could not be sold alcohol. And rather extraordinarily in some ways, it hasn't been changed since That is the intoxicating. so it wasn't for total It wasn't for total prohibition then, it was just for children Because Kir Starmer in his whatever it was this morning press conference or speech or whatever, he actually made that point. He said, lookook, I recognize that there will be kids who get r whatever law we introduce But the fact is that there are kids that get around the drinking laws as well. and no one suggests that we shouldn't have a drinking law banning drink for under eightens Which I thought was a fair point Quite an unorginal point. I made it on my Instagram last week in the face of line or shine. It was probably watching R I had that job in my attic and he's got legions of researchers who are trying to find out a way of improving his optics so he doesn't just look like he's pushing this across the line in order to have some kind of legacy before Andy Burnham snitches Makerfield and beyond I actually feel, interestingly that there's two ways of looking at the introduction of this bill. I want to come a bit later on actually not to look at the banning of alcohol, but to the banning of tobacco for children because I think there's some interesting, some salent similarities and very strong differences. That happened a bit earlier, in fact, than nineteen twenty three. But Why or where the impetus has come for suddenly going from consultation in March, the government having originally knocked back the Lords' proposal for this bill to now embracing it homeless bolus So some people or most people presume this's got something to do with Kir Starmer and his threatened premiership. But also there's a case to be made for this being a shout out to grass roots Movement people, parents groups, WhatsApps family members, schools saying, we need to do this and we need to do it f us. So kind of the power to the people idea I'm not always in favor of following public opinion. I think you should lead public opinion when you're the Prime Minister But there are occasions when it's appropriate to do. and I think this may be one of them. mean I'm I am broadly in favor of it I do think that he's letting the tech giants off the hook here Because if you believe that the likes of Meta, Facebook, Instagram, etcetera are publishers then I mean we wouldn't allow newspapers or book publishers to do what all of these social media giants are doing So I think they are being let off the hook in many ways And I think the list of social media sites that they've published, I mean, why isn't Blue Sky on it? Blue skky is effectively a replica of X So why aren't they on this list? So it all seems to be a little bit subjective. Um, and I WhatsApp isn't on the list, which I think is a good thing Is YouTube on the list? because it is in Australia, it shouldn't be is Well it shouldn't be. It absolutely should not be. There is nothing okay, I'm sure there is the old video on YouTube that's slightly distasteful, but you don't get porn on YouTube And that YouTube are actually quite good in filtering out bad content This is about much more than porn. interestnterestingly, a couple of things There has been this kind of rush to get it across the line. One of the reasons why you could call it out as a political decision is that the consultation on the outcomes in Australia has yet to be delivered And therefore, we are legislating where we could just wait a few months and actually have much better research to legislate with. because there are obviously many an Anglophone country, equivalent wealth, actually, Australia's economy does is considerably bit better than ours, But know there are lots of similar metrics that mean that we could follow in their lead. and I think we've rather let the horse bolt too quickly. But sry When you say the Australian economy does considerably better than ours, what are you basing that on? It's growth, GDP growth. But let's not go down that rabbit hole. just we can come and argues slog that another time. I'm sure a question, a listener in Australia will back me up But in the meantime, where they've struggled is working out how old children are who already have Instagram, et cetera accounts And most children who've had social media accounts have found that they've managed to retain their social media accounts in the wake of this ban. and Britain is going to think about apparently bringing in tighter ways of monitoring age, including the laws and identification rules that are used because you love talking about this for pornography in this country Well, I don't buy the argument that just because some kids find their way around it, it shouldn't be done. I mean the initial figures showed that forty percent or thirty to forty percent of kids were finding their way around it or ignoring it But that still means fifty or sixty percent that weren't so you could argue that it's still worth doing. And I think that is quite a strong argument actually. You're never going to be able to introduce a law in this that is all encompassing that will make sure that no child can ever see any of these sights. It's just impossible to do. the tech giants if they cooperated with it, and if they carried out their own social responsibility, they would be able to make it much more restrictive. It begs, I think some really interesting questions this ban We're going to look about the impact of smoking and banning smoking, which obviously had always implications for the treasury when we increasingly have tried to phase it out, not just for those sixteen in Lond but well beyond I wonder where The money side of things comes into it when it comes to prohibiting those under sixteen from taking up a social media habit because that's what it is effectively. And to what extent that will impact on tech grow's revenues and therefore to the national coffers of GBPLC. I don't know and I'm not sure that should be the overriding metric here. I mean, if it, it's not the overriding metric, but it is a question. It would be one of the reasons that would incentivize Slely the tech giants to push back or at least look for judicial review for the legislation that's coming down the line I agree, we need to do something. And what's interesting is the rate at which social media internet you scrolling has taken off. It's happened in a sort of compressed timepan. It's unprecedented in many respects, the way in which it's impacted on children's behaviours and lifestyles. and to suggest very somewhat cynically that this is all about K Stamma's political problems I think is to overlook the deliverance of Andy Milboururn's meets investigation which found over a million notn education or training young people, many of whom couldn't account for where their years had gone under the duvet. And the answer clearly was the smartph. the problem is that once you Once you get to the age of I don't know, twenty three, twenty four, twenty five and you've never had a job. the likelihood is you'll never get a job. And that, I think was one of the big conclusions from Alam Milburn's support and it's easy to sort of come out with all of these statistics. and so I mean, I don't know what proportion of twenty five year olds have never had a job But whatever it is it's too high But how do you stop that happening? Well does stopping people using these sites? I mean, what do they do with their time when they're not on these sites? That seems to be one of the big things that's come out in the discussion today. There was a girl interviewed on BBC News, She said, Well, I'll just stare at the wall. I thought you stupid girl And then other people say,, well, there's no there's no's an interesting part. There's no youth clubs which of course there are, but not as many as they used to be I don't really buy this idea that it just means that idle hands will make for Naughty work I think there's several points though, One it's a chicken and an egg are the fewer youth clubs because there's less uptake. There is also less funding. so there's probably a perfect storm of reasons why we have less facilities for young people, especially young people without financial means. But I think it's also worth bearing in mind Staring at the wall can be a hlly great thing. That's where you have your big ideas. And I think one of the read readable life today Actually, reading a book sometimes comes from st the walling yourself to death, you then pick up a book. Go and do stuff with your mates. Yeah But again I mean there are so many things that you can do as a teenher. Yeah. But sometimes there are restrictions, financial, parental, and otherwise that mean people can't skip and frolic in the way that they did when you grew up in a field in the seventies But I do think one of the deficits Well, that is true. One of the deficits in children's life today is boredom. And I think this will reintroduce that and it's not necessarily a bad thing. No, I don't buy that. I absolutely don't buy that because do you remember that program when I think you would have been a child when this program was on television Why don't you switch off the television and do something less boring And that was all about all of the different things that were available for young people to do. And I think that was true then in the seventies and it's true now Kids always complain that they're bored. No, they don't even They don't Mern children don't complain they're bored. That's one of the problems When I don't hear from Eena After about an hour, I think, U oh, go to her room. There she is on a screenpling Minecraft. If that had been me roll back the time forty, fifty years ago, I'd have been at the coat strings or the apron strings of my mum going, I' bed, I' bed. It's an absolute sea change in the way children are growing up. They're not Bward You could also argue that it's too late for this generation. And I think if you' a ten year old and you're already used to using all of these sites, you're going to think this is completely unfair and be totally against it. What I think this legislation will do, if you agree with it, is protect a future future generation Tell me when you think because I've already tackled alcohol. Chren under eighteen weren't allowed to drink it from nineteen twenty three. When were children under sixteen banned from buying ide nineteen sixty eight? No Not F far earlier, it was fascinating. I I went down a massive tobacco rabbit hole with this one. nineteen oh eight. They right fascinating because actually we didn't start making the public connection between health, particularly, but not only lung cancer, cardiovascular and smoking until well after the Second World War, partartly because as I afore mentioned, it was so lucrative for the treasury. Literally we have members of government going Churchill smokes, and look how old is he is. because we were in such flagrant denial about all the research that was coming out that connected smoking to lung cancer. But actually we had a clear idea it wasn't good because there we are in the Children's Act of nineteen oh eight forbidding the sale of tobacco to the under sixtyens People were concerned about the impact it was having and the rise it was having. Most of them, by the way, weren't smoking cigarettes. There was a tiny fraction of tobacco, but there was this introduction of a cigarette making machine that transformed the tobacco industry at the end. of the nineteenth century and meant kids were much more likely to have a rollleie. By the end of the First World War, cigarette sales finally exceed pipe sales, but do you know when it really reached a peak smoking Guess what year in the twentieth century, you see the highest number of smokers men and women, men and women. nineteen thirty three No, nineteen forty nine, eighty one percent of men smoked and thirty nine percent of women smoked in nineteen forty nine. It's staggering. that really is staggering, isn't it? I'm trying to think of my U sort of when I was, I don't know, five to ten years old I My uncle Pat, he smoked roll ups, and I remember thinking at the time, how disgusting And I remember when I was about thirteen. My Dad gave me a cigar and said, smmoke thatat. and I O path And that cured me of any desire to smoke again, apart from when I lived in Germany, because in Germany, in the early nineteen eighties smmoking was cool and I didn't smoke And I remember feeling really out of it because all my friends did. And I went down to the local tobacanist and bought a pack of twenty camel cigarettes and smoked the lot one after the other. What is the appeal of this? I don't understand it. so the only time I ever smoked after that is if I was drunk. Well, referring to Scotland as a masculine nation, it was a little behind the curve when it came to women's live. My mum said she rembered as an English woman marrying a sccot in nineteen seventy went up to Highland Scotland. Pubs were not a place where women went, and I remember all the manual workers, including my father on the estate smoked My dad did brilliant smoke rings, absolute perfect ones. he'd sit in his chair, smoking in the kitchen every single night, passive smoking, of course became a big thing in the eighties. But if you look at the link between smoking and illness, given clearly we'd rumbled something in nineteen oh eight, there was research being done in the early nineteen hundreds. By nineteen twelve, American doctors were saying there's an increased level of lung cancer Nothing, nothing happens, nothing happens You're getting research in the fifties, fifty four, suddenly starting to think about it. Remember, we've had tobacco since the reign of James VI and James I first. He was absolutely anti tobacco being introduced, of course or imported from the colonies. So this is a kind of four hundred year journey And suddenly in the twentieth century, beginning to see over a period of decades a cranking up of research and concern about the impact on general health But particularly young people's health nineteen oh eight and then of course the passive smoking campaigns. coming in later And eventually you're getting the phasing out in public spaces. that culminates in two thousand seven and also the age is lowered or raised rather then when it goes up to eighteen, I've forgotten that children unable to buy cigarettes. until they reached the age of eighteen. I forgot that amendment to the law, which wasn't so long ago I No, and the banning of smoking in public places I remember being totally against. evenven though I hate smoking, I don't like being in the same room as a smoker. though having said that I'm married to a smoker who who for the first twenty five years of our relationship would smoke twenty or thirty silk cut a day And if you hadd said to me that I would end up with somebody with that smoking habit, I would have laughed in your face. But for some reason, you smoked silk cut and I never I never I didn't find that particularly objectionable we're in the car he'd always open the window. Part of the advertising in, I remember growing up the glamour of the silk cut cigarettes in magazines, that beautiful purple, the satiny illustrious look of the silky sluts. But you see people silky sluts ye. He. He's now gone on to these Oh what they Philip Morris make them. They're not vapes. they're sort of they're called I' icon something or other Iicon heats And honestly, whenever he lights one up and you're in the car, I just want to gag because they smell like farts. And he can't smell it, but I can and I absolutely hate. I'd rather went back to silk cuts to be honest. I can't believe that he smokes in the car. It was nineteen seventy one when finally a voluntary agreement between the tobacco companies and government was agreed insisting that they put health warnings on their products. You then, as I said, mentioned, the passive smoking that was nineteen eighties, and it culminates in two thousand seven with legislation and enclosed public spaces. But I think the parallel I'm trying to make is how slow that was Tobacco horizon in sixteen hundred. Yeah. Finally in nineteen oh eight, we think,, it might be a bit dodgy for kids to be rolling all these cigarettes out of these machines or tobacos It takes another hundred years after nineteen oh eight for us to raise the age and to ban it in public spaces and yet look at the speed, the alaprity with which we've sat down on social media. Well, just two final points on that You rather cynically suggested that this was actually more to do with Kir Stara wanting to protect his job. I think there is some evidence of that because what If there is a real concern that kids won't have enough to do What he could have done is said, right, okay, his's five hundred million. for a new youth club in every single constituency. with the equivalent I mean, I don't know how much it would cost to run a youth club, but let's say it was five hundred million that he would have had a plan. But they've come up with these proposals so quickly after the end of the consultation that you kind of think the consultation as people often suspect was just for show And second of all, I wonder what your daughter Mara thinks of this Mara said she wished it had been implemented when she was that age that she used to have to really struggle to discipline herself off social medias. If he had five hundred extra million for each Eot Avenue youth cllub, he wouldn't have lost his defense secretary and his armed Forces minister in the line. No, no no. No that's a very simplistic reading of it. If you want to find five hundred million in a budget of over a trillion you can do so There's no argument about that. mean the defense budget, we're tal about billions. That's totally different And I mean some of the some of the I'm going a slight of a tangent here, but some of the arguments about where they could find the money from are just utterly ludicrous. There's always ways to find a money in government budget if you really want to. I would say the reason why this has been pushed across the line aside from the skin saving exercise that is Kir Stara's legacy, is because politicians are genuinely concerned not just about the unemployability of the youth also about the impact this will have in the medium long term on democracy. Well, I think K Starmer will also be very worried about the reaction of Donald Trump, who he's about to meet at the G seven in Aven I mean, that conversation could go well, it's only going to go one way actually because I think that onald Trump is about to do to Kirst Amer, what he tried to do to Angela Merkel in his first term and absolutely ritually humiliate her and ritually humiliate Kirst Amer at this summit. But we will see And of course the difference is, Donald Trump, despite this piece that's been rolled out, yet another one doesn't have the standing he had when he ripped into Angela Merkel. But yes, you're right, we shall see break and then into masculine tropes of Scottishness. And I know that you're desperate to talk about Andy Burnham. You will miss him after this by election's over. Oh no I forgot. He'll be running for Pime Minister We've got the by election on Thursday, so two days from where most people will be listening to this podcast We should say, by the way, that we're going to record the second podcast of the week unusually on Friday morning because we don't really see the point ofing on Thursday when we don't know the results. So it will be released as soon as actually we haven't done this by Coreory yet, but Coreory, are you listening because he'll have to put it out. He does work on Fridays unlike me. So you' hope Iale the King of the Pod. you willopead it from on high. You will hopefully, Corey peritting get the Friday podcast by midday on Friday Um now. It seems clear that the wind is in Andy Burnham's sails at the moment for reasons I can't quite fathom because I don't know about you, but he comes up an awful lot on my Instagram reels And they are just so awful It's sort of They're all about football. It's trying to prove that he's like I know we've talked about this before that he's like a normal person And you just think, no, no, no, you're making a complete fool of yourself. And if this is the way that you're going to act as Prime Minister And there are people without revealing their identity to usa, fairly close to us are a bit obsessed by Andy Burndham, but even they in the last couple of weeks have started to see the light and realize that he's a complete and utter flake What is it that you particularly take Umbidge with fact that other than other than Ian, he's got a great f of ha. He does, but he does. Yeah yeah Very smooth forehead, rather suspiciously well suned. When's he had a chance to get sun? No, no, I'll give him that. Well he's on the by election trail. When he's not in a media studio, he's actually out knocking on doors. And I remember when I did the two thousand five general election, that was around this time of the year and you do get a bit of a tan even if there isn't a lot of sun, which I doubt whether there is in Makup I'll cut him some snap for that. He's got wonderful eyelashes. He's a good looking guy a prrime mininister not make, I'm afraid And I'm told that that Victoria Derbyshire interview with him on Newsnight did him incredible damage among labor MPs who were thinking of supporting him And you look below the surface and there's nothing there. He's flip flopped on virtually every major issue. And he's done it again on the Waspy Women this week. an absolutely ludicrous position that he took and then had to reverse ferret on it And that is what he's mainly known for. and That's the complaint that is made against Kist Stama, that he flip flops on everything, that he has no ideological grounding. He doesn't really believe in anything And Andy Burnham is a replica of that, but he can sell things better But what's he got to sell? That's the problem. We still don't know. Now, you can cut him some slack and say, well, once the by election is over, he'll set out his stall for what he'd do as prrime Minister. But I don't think it'll be worth the paper that it's written on. I was disappointed he came out supporting the tririple lock becausecause obviously in Maker field, I don't know what the demographics are, but I'd imagine a fair slock of the voters are over a certain age and are heavily invested in holding onto the triple log But when he says it's a commitment, manifesto commitment and therefore, we need to stand by, I think he's much more looking about his own personal localised win. But the affordability of the tririple lock, I just really long for a politician to grasp a nettle and be honest about it. By the way, the tririple lock and I justou double down to check on this There are three measures And each year the state pension is guaranteed to increase by the highest of these three measures. Average earnings growth inflation or baseline of two point five percent. Even Jeremy Hunt now admits, he incensed me in the Times by the way, trying to explain to K Daha how money could be saved from the welfare budget to pay for the defense shortfall when he was the one man who made me richer when he was a chancellor by giving me extra welfare payment That is a fair point. You sent me that article and so I read it unusually. And you said you thought it was ridiculous. I was got to the end of it. I thought, Well, I don't think there's anything ridiculous about it. I mean, I take the point about that he made you richer But he's fundamentally right, even though he did things which were against what he's saying today we all know that it's much easier to stipulate and push for unpopular political changes when you're not in power, but as soon as they're in power, they bend, which is why Andy Berham is sticking up for the tririple lock But anyway, even Jeremy Hunt said that we could reduce those three measures just to one to inflation and that alone would save us five billion pounds a year. But it won't happen and it do. It won't happen under D Burnham's watch. He's very good at giving away money because he's a mayor, but actually you're quite right. He's a continuity candidate, but may left Yeah, he's a bit he's a bit more left of Starmer. But maybe you could argue that the primary failing of Kir Starmer is his inability to articulate what his government's doing and that's the one thing Andy can do. So really you're just changing the mouthpiece. That's all you're doing. Yeah. well, I think he'll be if he does win But I'm still not convinced in terms of the by election, I think he probably will.t the beginning of the campaign, I said I thought reform would win But I do think the intervention of Rupert Lowe's party has damag that prospect, which is highly ironic when you think it's exactly what reform did to the Conservatives. U and Interestingly, Nigel Farage has come back into the fray over the past few days, which I mean he'd been absent for quite a long time. Um And he did a sort of rather schmaltzy hour long interview with Nick Ferrari. like to replace desesert Island dis. so it was never going to be something where Nick Ferrari was going to particularly grill him. And it was an interesting watch. and you sort of learnnt a lot about his background and personality But I wonder whether if reform lose this They will they're starting to get a real track record of being the sort of bridesmaids, but never the bride. they they've lost several b elections before this. and if this if they lose this one, In an area that is prime reform territory, you look at the not only the demographics but the electoral history of that constituency, they ought to be walking it. my doubts are that they won't. And of course, but if they do win, I mean, quite what Andy Burnham does then, apart from going back to Manchester City all with his toe between his legs, I don't know. I think that would be toast for Burnerham. just quickly on the idea of BBC bias because they've never had Nigel Farraage on desesert Island discs. No, they haven't, but they have had Nigel Farraage thirty eight times on questestion time, which you could also argue is BBC as No that's a complete andut up myth. That is over a period of about twenty years And given his status as a party leader, of course he's going to have been on quite a lot. Ken Clark has been on far more than Nigel Farraage even during that time period. So I don't really buy that. I don't think he's been banned from Desert Island diss, but I think that was a sort of got up story It just hasn't made the threshold, but I was interested that over the weekend the Sunday, the mail on Sunday came out against restore saying they had party very viciously and why mail as well. Yeah which I think declares the mail really as a reform paper now, doesn't it, as opposed to a conservative one? That would deeply worry me if I was Kemmy Baynock. No, I don't think that's true. I think it just means that they want reform to win the by election rather than Andy Burnham o be discussed, I desperately wanted to do a deep dive into the Maid of Norway, but I think with questions we might be short of time, but suffice to say what she teaches us because I do want to go into more depth than another pood. She's so fascinating. This is you know the idea of Scottishness versus English. Is she the one that died She was drowned wasn't she? She died, apparently on the way to claiming her throne. Really acute seasickness, which I can empathize with She Yeah, me too. o my God. She arrives in Orkney, but crucially of course. No, if if you're gonna to do it, let's do it in another record. if I justt to say it properly. Orkney wasn't Scottish at the time, of course it was Norwegian So she didn't even die. dested for Home sold, but I think I just really want to make the point that everyone all these the Norwegians, the English, the Scottish were sort of picking over this toddler and her inheritance and who was going to marry her? It was destined to be Edward I, of course, famously renowned for being haammer of the Scots. who was going to marry her off to his son, less impressive warrior Edward II. It didn't happen. but this ignimity of not only failing to deliver an heir because tragically Alexander III, he dies horribly falling off a horse and all his three children die. and so he ends up having to pin his hopes on this granddaught failing to deliver an air, having this dead child of about five or six years old who doesn't even arrive in Scotland. Is it any wonder that subsequently you then have the rise of William Wallace and Robert the Bruce, less I'm talking here about their impact on the ground in terms of powering the nation of Scotland and ideeas of it in the Wars of independence. and more that Long term impact on ideas of Scotland for posterity, super masculine, super strong, always playing the underdog, taking the fight, the David versus the Goliath that's really endured in a way that I think is quite remarkable, to be honest, and I pin it not on William Wallace's bravery, but on the Maid of Norway's death. And of course you can read about Robert the Bruce in my book, The Generals, which you can see There on my bookshelf. It's such a neat sanwary I thought I thought so. only out over the last week and it's selling I went into waterstones in Piccadilly, the big one, what's it called or wateraterstonesilly, I suppose And it's on their front display. which I was rather proud of. That's incredibly impressive. And Read the Maid of Norway because there's so much more to say. I then started looking into how she was perceived in the Victorian era, and no wonder the Scots have been braying for independence. All these English writers saying, oh, of course, really England by that stage was an overlord of Scotland anyway. L I was incandescent with rage leaving the British library When Scotland next plays a football match, that's another excuse to do more on the little known maid of Norway, who was actually called Margaret I presume you will be supporting England on Wednesday. I will, but I would always I support the underdog ' I that makes you unique among Scots There was a wonderful little Instagram reel I saw the other day. It was outside the Scotland match and this very brave man was walking along the pavement wearing an England shirt. and of course all the Scotland supporters were shouting abuse at him And then he got to the end of it and then took it off and then they all started cheering him. it was quite good. I've always found this really weird that I've always supported any home nation, which I include the Republic of Ireland in. I don't get angry with me, Irish listeners. I've always supported them in World Cups. I want them to win every single match Um, But you won't get many Scots supporting England, will you? You know why? It's because of the disproportionate size of England ination it's about the disproportionate weight and clout of England and relations. All part of the same country. Parcel of nations, but they don't all want to be part of the same Well, Scotland Scotland has its own parliament, England, doesn't? The best example of that, of course, was Brexit weather theft and the weight of England dictated to Norn Ireland and Scotland. Congratulations in waiting fifty minutes to get the B word into the podcast. It's usually within the first five. I'm very impressed by it. for a break ages ago, Corey. ages ago As you know, I disrespect the plugging aspect of any pod But you're about to plug something that you're doing. Yeah, I'm allowed to for exly. I'm doing makes it okay. I think I'm up against I think I'm up against the World Cup Luckily, I'm not up against England playing, but on Sky History, World War twow with Tom Hanks, episode nine Secrets and Lies featuring none other than testid on nine o'clock. Well, I'm actually watching that series. It is very much Shall we say u World War II dumbed down. Have you watched it? Yes I have watched it. Of course. I mean it's a really good. If you don't know much about World War II It's a really good introduction. But it's very tabloidy, I think. It's a bit like Um sort of the worst of the channel five foroyal documentaries. I mean most of them are actually really good, particularly the ones featuring you and me, but some of them are just so dumbed down and you think, well it's not really worth watching Just just going to ignore that I'm sure you're very good in this one. I'm going to move on to questions. On the Instagram at where Politics meets history, this is from Connor, he says Good afternoon, dear Ian and Tessa On purpose addressed by first name regarding your question of associations regarding England by foreigners from my German experience Positive hyphen. always understated, never emphasise their titles. elegant English humour, musical influences, the Beatles, impeccable style, extremely polite, clearly not when it comes to football. wing quietly spoken, i. e. packed tube carriages are so silent he writes, the old stigmas remain. loobsters on the beach, crooked teeth, constant rain, binge shrinkers, bland food. Oh, and here they are, football hooligans Foreign language textbooks apparently still reinforce these stereotypes. And the fact that we're all obsessed by the loss of empire That is a really big stereotype in Germany, I find. Incidentally, that was from Bianca. I wrongly attributed it to Connor. Okay, nextext question from you, please. Liam from Jersey Does Stalmer really think the MOD's video of Royal Marines boarding the Russian shadow fleet vessel in the English Channel demonstrates Britain's strength, particularly while his government faces scrutiny over recent high profile defense resignations The production value of the footage makes it look looked like a promotional film. Does he believe the public will be swayed by eye catching videos, while more substantive questions about defence policy and leadership remain Um I don't know who authorized that to go out. I thought it was an interesting development that Given the number of Russian ships that have gone through the English channel, why pick on this one I think it was the right thing to do. Interesting, I haven't seen any reaction from Moscow, but then I haven't really been following the news much over the last couple of days. Have you seen anything? Yeah, I did. Was it the Russian foreign minister who said that they may well just start to detonate some of those I if somebody tries to Hi Jack Piracy, you could call it, one of their shadow fleet, they'll just blow it up, which did make me really start to seriously worry about the twenty five foreign nationals of mixed heritage and country origin who were working on this said vessel. Why would you worry about them?nd Why would you worry about them? They knew exactly what they were doing. They were taking illegal oil to Russia. So why would you have any concern about them at all If you've ever even worked on a cruise ship, you know that often some of the most vulnerable individuals work. on the oceans, the rules of the seeven seeas, they need a job, they're trying to feed their family from whichever country they've come from. And I think that you're actually naive to suggest that they all are fully literate in terms of the heinous crimes that Russia is committing depending on their country of origin. Remember we get a certain perspective in the news. Ukraine are our allies. We're funding Ukraine and we desperately want to beat Russia. But if you're coming from a country, whether it's, for example, Mumbai and India Oh s even Indonesia or Cambodia, was it destined was it Cameroonian vessel or a Cambodian vessel? I think it was a Cambodian vessel. I would suggest that the workers on that ship weren't fully cognizant of Britain's agenda in the war. Of course they were. Well it's got nothing to do with Britain. The fact is it was an illegal shipment and they would have been fully aware of that when they took the job on the ship. So I have absolutely no sympathy with them at all. What I wonder now though, is what happens I mean it was intercepted, Do they just intercept it and then let it go on its way or what? They're now tethering outn't they? and they're doing some research into these I don't know. one hundred thousand liters or whatever it is of oil that's on board. I do think it really is literally a drop in the ocean forgive the pun. There are apparently seven hundred of these shadow vessels. and given the pounding overnight that Ukraine took six hundred drones unleashed across Ukraine last night, seventy ballistic missiles, twenty escaped the anti aircraft defense. an eleventh century cathedral was hit in the centre of Kyiv. It was a UNESCO site. On the day of course, that Ukraine has started, I think somewhat futarly negotiations to join the EU. We need to do more than board one Sadow vessel. in the English channel But you still think that the welfare of the people on board that vessel should be the primary concern. It would just make me extremely hesitant about taking a job on one of those vessels. That's all if I think it might get detonated at any point. Right. Just from a practical point of view. Another question Yeah, I do. Here we have somebody who's withholding his name for reasons that apparently will become apparent He says this week, so last week, Kemmy Badnock pledged that a conservative government would repeal the public sector equality duty and rejected what she called identity politics. As someone with a disability who has struggled to get their workplace to implement reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act, this terrifies me. The EA has so many loopholes for employers to exploit already Doesn't weakening it further make it less likely that people with disabilities get the support they need to get into work I've never understood this part of the Tory conundrum. They want to reduce welfare and get more people back into work rightly but don't actually want people work to have better employment rights and security. Lots of stick, but no carrot. Well, I think the Tories have said they want to abolish that piece of legislation and replace it with another one. so it doesn't mean to say the disability I mean just remember for a minute Who was it who introduced the Original Disability Discrimination Act in nineteen ninety five? It was a conservative government, not a labor one And that was a groundbreaking piece of legislation which did put extra duties on employers. No one's suggesting that that should go. But there are there are aspects to the Equalities Act which I think a lot of people can see have gone too far and put far too many duties and restrictions on employers. And look It's quite clear, as Jeremy Hunt I think made clear in that Sunday Times article, the more regulation you put on employers, the less likely they are to employ new people. We know that the GDP growth of countries which have deregulated is two percent higher than those which haven't. and It's clear as night follows day that our economy now is so over reggulated. in all sorts of different areas. I think the Tories are quite right to look at what they can do to make things better. Now, look, I don't want anything to happen to disadvantaged disabled people. I think one of the great things over the last twenty years is that disabled people have been able to work in a way that they possibly weren't able to before. I'm not suggesting that we've actually got to where we need to be Um I mean if you look at the amount of welfare benefits spent on disabled people compared to even ten years ago I mean it's massive And yet when you talk to individual disabled people, they say, well, I'm not seeing any of it. So I don't know where this money's going. That Jeremy Hunt artle. I absolutely wish I hadn't put it in the WhatsApp group I really do Right, anotherother one from Sam Wood. Please get your questions in at where Politics meets History on the Instagram if you would like me to curate them and select the best. And othertherwise you can email Ian who gets the final say on this podcast because he's generously taken time off his holiday on his wedding anniversary to join us online. And if you want to email your question, it's where politics meeets history at gllobal dot com Sam Wood says as an accomplished scholar, shouldn't Tesssa know that in the Shakespeare derived phrase hoist with his own petard, the word hoist already acts as a past participle and does not require the Ed suffix While modern idiomatic English may allow for such usage, much like it now allows literally to mean figuratively, we rely on our public intellectuals to defend the precision of our language. Additionally, while listening to Ian's LBC show, I was surprised to find Mr Dale somewhat a cunning linguist himself apparently unaware of the difference between indefinite and permanent L's us tld, isn't it? Nevertheless, I continue to listen to every episode. The show's format encourages the kind of good natured disagreement that is essential to avoiding echo chambers in today's society. That said I do find I have to calm myself in preparation for Tessa's pathological dedication the luxury beliefs of the middle class, I share this perspective as a working class woman rather than from the much maligned far right male viewpoint that is so often dismissed There we go. Butottingly I need to go down and check what's happening in the downstairs sitting room. I think I missed the most, the most important sentence of that message. I don't know if it was a gin meal for me, cut out. I then asked, but can you tell me, hereere's a general hest question Hoist by your own patard or words to that effect which Shakespeare play does it come from I've no idea because I've only ever read one Shakespeare play and that was one too many. Hamlet, my friend, Hamlet. just quickly on new words and expressions, I listened to On your advice, I rel listened to it because I fell asleep the first time, Wes Streeting being interviewed by Louis Goodall, who's a bright boy I went to St. John's Oxford, I noticed. was good, wasn't it? Yeah, And he's a bright boy, Louis Goodall. And he said, Are you impugning the Prime Minister? And I thought it's a great use of the word and I'm going to use it more to impue someone. You tell me what it means Well, you implicate or no, you put views on someone that they may not have. Yeah it's more negative than that though. It's to denigrate them or to imply adversely. It's a challenge to criticise to cgeious questions whichich is what you do all the time to me Yes, I regularly impugity inale. On that note, I'm just taking my top off because I had to close the window for noise reasons I'm now having a little hot moment in the attic I'm going to bid you farewell, You can go back to your football. We'll reconvene once England's beaten Croatia too ill. if it's anything less than that, it's a national disgrace And in the way anti gars, I think probably God Andy Burnhams considerable, I think, considerable victory in Makerfield, but maybe I'll get that wrong as well. I'm going to predict an Andy Burnham victory by fifteen hundred votes and the the restore vote will be sixteen hundred. will send Nigel Farraage into a paroxysm of anger Anyway I will go and enjoy the rest of my holiday and continue reading It's laughingly called a holiday, but I think I told you earlier. I'm spending most of it recording my audio book which and I've had to learn how to use an piece of editing software, Audacity, which I'm quite pleased that I have taught myself how to use. and As you will know, Tessa, I've worked out how to edit videos on Capcut for Instagram and I'm very pleased with myself for that. So goodness I mean that way does lie madness, doesn't it think it's very important for the elderly to embrace new skills. Congratulations, Ian. Go forth, multiply and enjoy your Prince Albert. My God Bye, ladies and gentlemen This has been a global production